Latest / Inner Alchemy with George Stuby – Trauma, Music and Plant Medicine / E16 - Dr Darragh Stewart: The Inner Work Men Have Been Avoiding

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E16 - Dr Darragh Stewart: The Inner Work Men Have Been Avoiding · Inner Alchemy with George Stuby – Trauma, Music and Plant Medicine

• speaker-0: Meditation, yoga and especially psychedelics, I I was kind of catapulted into a whole nother realm of how to work on myself, do the inner work. They can really, really help us in our in our personal development and spiritual development. When's the last time you sang? When's the last time you you danced? When's the last time you created art? ⁓ and I really feel this is so true, and especially around nature. It's like when's the last time moments, but it's like how can you like Bring that back into your day to day and just l start living a a loving and happy and fulfilling life. speaker-1: Yeah, I'm super happy to be here today with Dr. Dara Stewart. Dara is a co-founder of Inward Bound Psychedelic Retreats in the Netherlands, a pioneering venture in the emerging field of psychedelic retreats. He's one of Ireland's prominent immense work facilitators and co-founder of Psychedelic Brothers Islands. He holds a PhD in molecular plant genetics and is driven by bridging science and spirituality. His grounded non-dogmatic approach helps individuals to connect with their inner selves through modalities like breathwork, meditation and movement. And he's currently committed to reclaiming islands, indigenous use of magic mushrooms and championing best practices in navigating altered states for self-healing and community well-being. Yeah. And on your website, you write that you're bridging science and ancestral wisdom. And I guess for a lot of people, that's an unusual. So, yeah, I would love to hear more about what that combination means to you and like how you came to the point where you felt those two worlds need to be combined through my work. speaker-0: Yeah, great honor to be on the podcast, first of all. yeah, Bridging the Worlds has kind of always been a little bit of my ⁓ personal journey, really. You know, I ⁓ studied science for over ten years, specialized in molecular genetics, and was very much in this materialistic, rational kind of space of how I approach myself and the world and through some kind of big holistic practices such as breath work, meditation, yoga, and especially psychedelics. I I was kind of catapulted into a whole nother realm of how to work on myself, do the inner work, ⁓ and how to approach l how to approach life. So yeah, I really see that, you know, science is kind of slowly catching up now to the kind of more of the Eastern philosophies or more of the indigenous wisdom that is available ⁓ in the world. and I I really do believe in the data, but I don't think the data can always explain everything. ⁓ and that's why I love kind of merg merging these two worlds, the science with the mystical or the science with the spiritual. ⁓ I do believe in science and science can inform us and tell us so much. But I find that some of these kind of other practices, you know, like ceremony, ritual, being out in the land, sweat lodges, vision quests, they can really, really help us in our in our personal development and spiritual development. speaker-1: percent. And how did you get in touch with those modalities, breathwork, sweat lodge, psychedelics? speaker-0: Yeah, it was How did it happen? Yeah, good question. It was definitely an interesting journey because like I was saying, I I studied science for so long. I was very much in the science world. And the holistic world was kind of I had this like bias or prejudice that that's like woo-woo stuff, you that's like hippie stuff. And the last thing I wanted to do was become a hippie, which I kind of did for a while. ⁓ because I, you know, really threw my threw myself ⁓ into it. I still think I'm kinda hippie, maybe but more bohemian. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah, kinda have a foot in in in both of the worlds. ⁓ mainly was through my own direct experience, you know, with with psychedelics. I was having, you know, profound experiences that the the science couldn't really quantify. ⁓ the closest kind of science at the time was all this ⁓ stuff coming out of John Hopkins, Roland Griffiths, ⁓ you know, sharing about the mystical experiences and these kind of things. ⁓ I was kind of like a almost like a slippery slope into the holistic world. Once I got into it, I was like, Wow, there's so much here. And as a scientist, I was kind of quite lucky because I was able to kind of move through the kind of fluffy spirituality or fluffy holistic stuff and and find the stuff that was that was really working ⁓ f for me. and yeah, I was kind of like more so like called to it. I was I was more called to exploring more of the nature based spirituality, more of the, you know, connection to my roots, my land, my own culture. And as an Irish person, that's really a in our culture, you know, it's kind of if you start to go down a few layers, it's it's it's it's really there. ⁓ a lot of t traditions are kind of being revitalized now. And I think this is due to ⁓ you know, people going abroad to other cultures and seeing, you know, that their kind of core essence practices are still intact and it's kind of about re remembering, not culturally appropriating that happens, but remembering what we would have had as a tradition. And you know, some people, medicine carriers still carry those traditions. It's like a little bit like on the fringe, hard to find, but they're there. And so when I in Ireland. Yeah, in Ireland. So when I went to seek them, they were there and they were happening. ⁓ and it was kind of like, yeah, I suppose an a natural progression. I I felt very drawn to more of the nature based spirituality, more of the shamanic approaches that were happening in my own country. ⁓ very lucky to find a great teacher, Martin Duffy. who's been championing that in Ireland for many years and other teachers. And then I just kinda wanted to try everything, you know? It's like there's all of these wonderful modalities to to try. It's like, let's go. ⁓ Yeah. speaker-1: Amazing. And when you say like nature based spirituality, what does that mean to you? speaker-0: Yeah, I ⁓ for me it means ⁓ a connection to place, a connection to land and connection to the natural law of things, so connecting to ⁓ the nate the nature of of things, so seeing maybe spirituality or spirit in all things. So from the ocean to the trees to the rocks to the land, having its own energy, its own frequen frequency, its own its own spirit. And there's an opportunity for you to, you know, quieten the mind, ⁓ or take Plant medicine, ⁓ it's an easier shortcut. It can take a long time to quiet the mind to really tune into that, to tune into the natural world and to see the natural world and everything ⁓ that it has as as a teacher, as as a guide, as ⁓ giving you some sort of ⁓ input into how you're living your life and your your your part in it. ⁓ I think one of the biggest things is seeing us as part of nature and not like separate from from nature and being able to get back into that rhythm of like, okay, I'm a part of nature and how can I live in harmony with it? speaker-1: Yeah, I can so much relate to that. Like, recently, somebody asked me what I received from psychedelic work, so to speak, and for me to even more depth in the connection to nature. That was, is one of the biggest gifts, for sure, in working with plant medicines. speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. I think they're starting to do a lot of research at the moment as well around people's attitudes towards nature and the environment after taking Cyclelex. Like people are going out and signing more like petitions to not destroy nature, people become more conscious of eating meat or becoming vegetarian or, you know, getting more involved in environmental causes because seeing that nature is our home and currently we're destroying it in a in a massive, ⁓ terrible way. So yeah. And a lot of the indigenous traditions there's from around the world they're so in connection with with nature, you know, it's it's their home, it's their place. So ⁓ if people work in indigenous ceremonies, ⁓ or ancestral ceremonies, it's always so close to nature, you know, c close to the to the elements, close to spirit animals and the spirit of the plants, you know, which most of the cyclot from. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. And I just remembered a conversation I had with somebody who has guided psychedelic journeys for like decades. And she said like, it's really small things like ⁓ turning off the shower while you're like putting on the shampoo and stuff. And that's something that really stuck with me. And it's like, just like little things. And if you do that every day, it makes such a massive difference. And it's so easy. It's not even like the because can sound really big connecting more with nature. does that mean? But it can be in so many small things. speaker-0: Beautiful. That's such a yeah, great great way of doing it, you know. All these little small changes we can make as humans. speaker-1: And like daily consumption. I've been recently on like a, ⁓ so like no plastic mission, as far as possible. And it's incredible what shifts through just a focus like that and how much more awareness all of a sudden for me, is in like not buying plastic products or not buying like clothing. That's not out of cotton or natural, natural fabrics. speaker-0: Yeah, it's probably a lot harder than you think, really, is it? I was in Thailand there recently and they were like packaging individual bananas in plastic. And I was like, ⁓ my god, this is so you know, what's what's going on? You know, what what world are we living in that we're packaging individual bananas? speaker-1: It is, huh? I've seen that as well. They even do it in Switzerland with organic food in the supermarkets. that it's clear this is an organic product and then not packaged things are not. So it's a bit absurd sometimes. And I just wondered, you do it when someone would like to connect more with nature and comes to you and say, I would like to connect more with nature. What would you tell this person? speaker-0: Yeah, generally I try and tune into the person and, you know, see where see where where they're at, you know. I think a lot of people who are maybe suffering from depression, anxiety, ⁓ I always check in, you know, when's the last time you took off your shoes and walked on the beach? ⁓ there's this old I think there's this old saying, you know, it's like when's the last time you sang, when's the last time you you danced, when's the last time you created art? ⁓ and I really feel this is so true and especially around nature, it's like when's the last time you were in nature, shoes off? You know, when's the last time you felt the like the ruggedness of a tree bark or you know, smelled really got in and smelled the flowers, like it's such a cliche thing, like stop and smell the flowers, but so true. And I think the science as well is showing that there's there's ⁓ like pheromones in the air. ⁓ when you go into a forest and this is this activates parts of the brain that like makes more serotonin and dopamine makes you happy. And same with getting the hands in the soil. Yeah. Like one of my favorite integration practices is my garden. speaker-1: That's so true. speaker-0: I go out there, I'm weeding, I have my hands in the soil, it might get my fingernails dirty, ⁓ be close close to the earth. And it's the same. I ask people, you know, when's the last time you you actually like planted something or you had your hands hands in the soil? And then, you know, we're also finding out that there's all these ⁓ soil microbiome is is important for for our own microbiome. You know, when people grow organic food, they're actually getting like a little bit of ⁓ the biome from from the ground because these products aren't like intensely cleansed and washed. Yeah. ⁓ and we're ingesting that and that's good for our own good good biome, which is linked to serotonin again. Yeah. So I always check check in with someone. It's like, you know, maybe like do do a little bit of planting or take the shoes off, go on the beach, get into into nature. ⁓ I think in Japan I think some of the doctors are like prescribing ⁓ forest bathing now for people, you know, just go sit in the forest for for forty minutes. It's like I think there's a a fr I can't remember the phrase for it. Yeah, that's it. You know, it's like speaker-1: Shinun Yoko. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. It's like I'm gonna prescribe you thirty minutes in the nature. But to be honest, it works for so many people and it's amazing being in here here in London. You know, there is a lot of a lot of green spaces, but like there's probably not enough green spaces ⁓ where you're completely at a at a kind of sensory calm level. It's like letting the nervous system relax as well, not having like sirens going by and you know, loud noises. I think it's so important for people to to be in in the nature. speaker-1: percent. Yeah, totally agree. And I can also totally relate to like planting things. Like I set up a flower, like a vegetable box and really enjoy that process. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's it's important, you know. I think we've become a little bit disconnected from, you know, our our own our own food supply as well. ⁓ which is a whole other topic probably for another day. But you know, take taking control a little bit of like, you know, even your just your herbs, you know, when you're gonna c plant some basil and some coriander, even that is is amazing, you know, for people who are living in an apartment or don't have ha don't have the the green space. But yeah, it's a it's a wonderful integration practice prescribing ⁓ nature. Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ 100%. And ⁓ is it also something that plays a role in the man's work that you're doing? speaker-0: Yeah, a lot of the time with in in men's work, ⁓ we kind of do a session where there's like several hours out in in silence in nature. Not a not a full vision quest, but yeah, you know, having a f a few hours just out in the natural world, maybe like building a little fire yourself or collecting some objects, being kind of like present and aware in the nature. Yeah. you know, for me a lot of men I think they need ⁓ sp spaciousness for themselves. They need to sit in silence. And what a better place to do it than in in the na in the natural world. Yeah. And like a lot of men, you know, we have this kind of like primal energy in us. And I think that needs to be expressed by, you know, running and moving through nature fast and like climbing a tree and also activates the inner child too, which is wonderful. But I think there's a lot to be said for, you know, men having the space where they can go out into nature and sit and be be by themselves and then maybe come back into the group and share any, you know, reflections or anything that they understood about themselves or any clues and insights they got from just being in the natural world, you know, just like sitting there watching a bird or watching a squirrel or just even noticing branches of the trees or rocks. Like you can learn so much about yourself. It might bring you back to your early childhood or something you learned in a documentary or something, but there's there's a lot of clues in nature for us. So I really believe that, you know, ⁓ men should spend more time in nature and be in that kind of raw, primal ⁓ energy. speaker-1: And you mentioned that that part of that work is done, that the men come back into the group and share their insights. Do you see any patterns in like insights that men share in these kind of groups? speaker-0: Around nature specifically. In general. In general. Yeah. I think, you know, I feel like a lot of guys at the moment are overworked and a lot of their identity and sense of being in the world is tied to their job and how much money their career and how much money they're making. And a lot of I think a lot of men find their their kind of validation outside of themselves too. They're validated by like their bank account, they're validated by their work, their boss. ⁓ speaker-1: Never speaker-0: And if you no longer enjoy that, then it's just a one way ticket to like burnout and suffering. Especially if you're doing you're in a career that maybe you kind of fell into or you didn't choose. And I think a lot of guys like, you know, my age, mid thirties now, they're kind of really re reanalyzing like, did I really want to go down this career path? Or was it because like I was told I should do it by like parents or peers or society said like, you know, this was the this was the thing to do. So I think it's yeah, it's really interesting time for men in terms of, you know, choosing where they want to put their energy, what is their actual passion, what brings them soul fulfillment, and how how much of ⁓ how much courage can they muster up to like do the thing that they wanna do or always have wanted to do? And and that's difficult, you know, if if you have kids, if you have a mortgage, if you have big car loans, there's all these like hooks that society kinda has entrenched into us that we can't just easily leave a career. Yeah. So this is really difficult. A golden cage, yeah. So ⁓ I think yeah, it's for sure an interesting time for for for men to like retrain or go on their own kind of like sabbatical or vision quest, but it's not as easy as, you know, just packing your bags and leaving, especially if you have responsibilities and commitments in the world. Uh-huh. speaker-1: Golden cage sometimes. Yeah, like And a term that you used a few times is vision quest and I thought maybe not everyone knows what a vision quest is. How would you find that? speaker-0: Yeah. So a vision quest is when you have an a an intention, like most rituals or ceremonies, I think vision quests kind of fall under that category category of of a of a ceremony, so to speak. And you you go out on, you know, two, three, four day, depending on what what modality you're you're working with or what tradition you're working with, and you go out to nature with that intention. And a lot of vi vision quests You know, some can be more extreme than others. Some state, you know, no food or water or sustain yourself from the land yourself, you know, find your own water and food out there. some of them are multiple nights with cover or with no cover. and it's kind of like a real I suppose communion to use that word. I know it's a bit of a loaded word, but a communion with the land and communion with nature. And then you understand something about yourself, your intention, and then you come back into the into the group and and share those reflections. speaker-1: That's a beautiful way to describe it and one last year. speaker-0: You've done a few few vision quests, haven't you? speaker-1: The deepest ceremonial experience I had so far. Wow. Really special. was like four days and four nights in that case without food and just staying in like a very small place, about the size of the place we're sitting in right now. Really fantastic work. So can highly, highly recommend that. And I just thought ⁓ a lot of the things you shared about the vision quest also applied to psychedelic work. speaker-0: Wow. speaker-1: It's almost like our natural segue into the psychedelic fields. And you're running retreats like in the Netherlands, in Costa Rica, so in places where it's legal, they do exist. Yes. Luckily. ⁓ Yeah, I'm curious to hear a bit like about the origin story, so to speak, of inward bond, which is like your, your ⁓ container for the psychedelic work. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, very happy to share. It's ⁓ a very s a story very close to my heart. you know, when I was in the science world, I was kind of seguing out of it because I really felt like there was more more in life for me. Like I ⁓ initially I got into science 'cause I have curiosity. Like curious curious about the mind, curious about nature, curious about the world. ⁓ and I wanted to kind of make a difference through science, which I found is very difficult and very ⁓ long hours and very difficult. ⁓ it's it's the the yeah, the money thing, I suppose, isn't it? It's like publish or parish. You know, you can have these amazing projects that are going and if somebody doesn't want to fund it, you know, your lab could be done in an instant. So there's this high level of of pressure. You always have to be producing. and speaker-1: What makes it difficult? Experience. speaker-0: Science is, you know, it's it's a it's it's it's a mean subject because there's constant failure there and there's constant rejection and constant letdown. You know, experiments don't work over and over and over again. So it takes a lot of like tenacity to to keep going and takes a lot to keep you to keep you buoyant. And then sometimes, you know, you might be working on something for many years and then someone else publishes results, you know, you get scooped and it's like very disheartening. So, you know Science is a is for sure a tough grind when you get into the the deep, deep a academic level of of science. so anyway, I was in that and I was kind of really on this own on my own journey of had, you know, depression, anxiety, in ⁓ in my mid twenties and I was really struggling with that, you know, finishing my PhD and doing my postdoc. So I started to meditate and got into tic-nac hand tradition of of meditation, was very lucky. ⁓ there was a a a workshop like once a week, every week in Dublin. And then I started to do some yoga and these kind of modalities really helped me. and one of the things that was really difficult for me was that my kind of depression was manifesting in the body as pains in my hips and my legs. So I started to go for massage therapy and really loved this and was having like big releases from from this. The guy was like more a body worker than just a massage therapist, you know. He was working working magic on my body. So yeah, then in the evenings I started to train as a massage therapist as my kind of like this was going to be my segue out. ⁓ and at that time I started to meet wonderful people in the holistic sphere and then found ⁓ my way into the psychedelics psychedelic sphere through a psychedelic society ⁓ that was happening in Dublin and met some wonderful people and then started to have these profound psychedelic experiences with good people. Yeah. ⁓ in ceremonies and recreationally. and one of one of the one of the things that kind of ⁓ well there's kind of two things that were really wonderful at that time. I started to meet really amazing people. Like I really started to meet ⁓ men who were really heart centered, open, and were having these really beautiful connections and conscious connections for the for the first time with with the men, outside of like this competitive kind of ⁓ kind of sporting narrative that is is so entrenched in in in I suppose male culture in Ireland ⁓ and the UK and most of the world. speaker-1: Yeah. In a standard to like Germany, Switzerland. speaker-0: Yeah. So I started to meet, you know, a lot of guys who were talking about philosophy and these other wonderful subjects. ⁓ and then two of my colleagues, ⁓ one I was a lot closer to in my in my institute, ⁓ were taken by suicide to the men. Wow. And for me Yeah, for me this was like a big moment. I think it affected me more than I had realised at the time. But I really felt like, God, like men are suffering so much in this world. ⁓ I felt like I need to do something about this. So, what kind of happened naturally in our group was we started to like separate, like the men would go off, the women would go off if we're out in nature, this kind of thing. ⁓ and I was like, This is so therapeutic. ⁓ so then myself and my friend at the time, ⁓ Rob Coffee, who's now my business partner who we set up inward bound, we started to run men's circles in Dublin. And then we started to run They went so successfully well. There wasn't so many men's circles like 10 years ago in in Ireland, like a few. ⁓ they went really well. And then we started to run men's retreats. And then I think the natural progression was for us to start to run psychedelic retreats. ⁓ Rob was ⁓ psychotherapist and I was coming at it from more like an embody, embodiment, spiritual kind of angle ⁓ and a science angle. ⁓ so we had, yeah, teamed up, ⁓ brought ⁓ brought other people in, other therapists. And then yeah, we set up we set up inward bound legally in the Netherlands. It's the only place in Europe that you could legally work with psilocybin. Yes. And you know, psilocybin is our indigenous medicine. As Irish people like psilocybin mushrooms grow all across Ireland in the winter. So for us it felt like quite congruent to like start to reclaim our our old our old tradition of working with ⁓ magic mushrooms, psilocybin, psilocybin mushrooms. And since then, you know, eight years we've had like many different members, ⁓ many different modalities of people coming in and out, and we've created a really wonderful and safe program with the preparation, screening, the retreats with the high dose sessions of truffles or mushrooms in Costa Rica. And then the the follow up integration. So it's been a wonderful journey and I feel so fortunate to yeah, be in this space when, you know, the psychedelic wave is waving. speaker-1: That's so fantastic. And you just mentioned the psychedelic rave is raving right now. it's like, maybe not as hyped as like two, three years ago, but still, still quite a buzz around it. ⁓ And I'm curious how you see that. Like, what do you feel is like the what are the positive sides of this hype and what are maybe also the not so positive sides of that? speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question. You know, like with with with any of these kind of things, there's always like two sides, you know. And for me, like one of the the clearest things now is like psychedelics are not for everybody. You know, some people who have, you know, certain mental health disorders or conditions, you know, shouldn't do psychedelics. Yeah. And so like psychedelics, I think we're kind of like pinned as this like magic pill or magic bullet that's gonna like change the world and I think there's a lot more nuance to it now than that we know. So yeah, I think some of some of the some of the downsides are for sure the involvement of like the pharmaceutical industry, the involvement of, you know, control and power dynamics are who are going to be the people to ⁓ administer this. Is it being done in a safe way? Are people getting proper follow up integration, which is not happening? You know, I've I've heard of people go to clinical trials and have huge experiences and then just have like one session after or two sessions or no sessions at all. And this is the same for, you know. the plant medicine and the the retreat organi the retreat businesses as well. You know, I've I've heard a lot of people go to retreats and not have proper screening, not have proper integration, not have proper follow-up, and people are left really disorientated. and, you know, people shouldn't have even been on some of those retreats. They should have been screened or the spaces themselves aren't being held properly. You know, there's too many people, like sixty people in ayahuasca ceremony with like three or four facilitators. And people are getting like re traumatized and having a lot of issues. ⁓ So, you know, a as a as a as an as a whole, I think the psychedelic industry is is in a very young space. there's no governing body. There'sn't nobody's really regulated to do it. There's no over overarching regulation body that says, like, you you're a psychedelic facilitator. ⁓ there's many paths into it, of course. There's like shamanic, there's a science, there's a psychological, there's many paths to work with these medicines, and I think they all speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: kind of blend and overlap in in a really good way. But I think, you know, if you go just really one area, I think there's some nuance can be left, you know. For example, if you go just down the clinical route and you have a mystical experience or a shamanic experience, there's no real cultural context there to to hold that or frame it for you. Yeah. Or if you're in a shamanic ceremony and you have a like a psychological break or a spiritual emergency or something like this. ⁓ and then maybe they don't really navigate it in the correct way or give you the correct kind of follow up. Yeah. So I think each of the different spheres can probably learn from one another. ⁓ and I think some spheres are good for some people and s maybe not for others. You know, some people will need to take their psychedelics in the clinic because they will need that level of safety and control. Yeah. and maybe some people might get a lot more benefit by doing it in the holistic kind of retreat setting. Yeah. Or a naturalistic setting and do the other practices. like breath work or yoga meditation for like nervous system regulation rather than sitting in a clinic. So it's gonna be really exciting to see how things kind of develop over the next while. speaker-1: Totally. And when you talk about clinics, what I have to think about is like my, like a colleague of my mom suffered from depression, really severe depression. And he lives in Switzerland and he got approved for a ketamine therapy. So ketamine is like an anesthesia that also can be used for psychedelic therapy because it has also psychedelic effects. He went to the most, to like the, just like the, the, the mental health hospital in Zurich, very like famous and, yeah, well known place. And they basically put him on a dentist chair and gave him the ketamine drip and left him there for an hour and then came back and sent him home. And that was it. That that's it. Wow. And for me, that's such a, like, alarming report of like, That's how clinics do it. So I feel just because it's a clinical setting, that doesn't mean a lot. And often clinical settings are actually less informed about how to work with psychedelics than shamanic circles in my experience. speaker-0: Wow, yeah. Well, sorry to hear that's that's happening. I've also heard of like people going to several rooms and then one doctor sitting there and watching them all on like a square panel screen, like, you know, watching twelve per participants at the one time, you know, in their Ketaman journeys. And it's kinda almost dystopian, you know. You yeah, you kinda come into this room and then you get sent off. I think, you know, I I really feel like I I I hope that the the level of like human connection isn't lost in this whole sphere and I feel like that's one of our big values at In Rebound is having this kind of human connection and heart in the work. Yeah. It's trying to meet people as another human, not just like another number on a on a sheet. and I really hope that that doesn't happen in the clinical sphere. Because I feel like a lot of people they're they're coming with their their issues because of maybe dysfunctional relationships with other humans. So us as facilitators Have a huge responsibility and an opportunity to help in reparative ⁓ ways for people, you know, with being there compassionately, being there with loving kindness, being there as a as a co-regulating, steady force that maybe they didn't have as a as a child or in the relationship or you know, in their life right now. So they get to really be around that energy and feel it and and and allowed in. And I feel like that is speaker-1: re-nurtured. speaker-0: A hundred percent. Yeah, it's a g great word to be nurtured and I think that's that's what a lot of lot of people are looking looking for and I think a lot of people need. speaker-1: Yeah, that's so true. And especially for men, that's, that's also important for everyone. But I see a lot of, I've met a lot of men who are very ⁓ far away from their emotional world and from their own inner experience. And just, gave like a nervous system regulation workshop this morning here in London in Soho house. And it was again, very eye opening that like, 85 % of the room were women. speaker-0: Yeah, wow. Yeah. Yeah, it was very similar to when I started off like this spiritual personal development work maybe ten years ago. I was like the only dude at the yoga train at the yoga yoga classes. I was the only guy sh turning up to the well, the meditation ⁓ some weeks or the only one going to the shamanic workshops. ⁓ yeah, I think the women are definitely a few more years ahead of us in terms of like the spirituality and the inner work. But I really feel like in the last years it's been a big shift. I feel just so many more men are seeking these spaces ⁓ because they need to, primarily. but I really feel like there is definitely a shift now in in in men seeking, you know, therapy as well, which is really important, and seeking their own personal development and spiritual development, which is which is great. Gives me a lot of hope, you know, going to a lot of men's retreats and trainings and seeing the guys turning up and showing up. speaker-1: Yeah, that's amazing. And one term that I also heard you use, not here in the interview today outside of it is the term of shadow work. What is shadow work for you? speaker-0: Yeah, so good question. And and it's kind of like I was gonna kinda mention it where the w for the reason why men aren't accessing their their emotionality is because it's been resigned to the shadow, which is this this part of the psyche that we have repressed or hidden away because we don't ⁓ we it's mostly unconscious, you know, we've built up defence mechanisms to feel safe. And we don't want to access this material because maybe it's too painful. You know, it's like things that maybe that happen us that are kind of pushed down it and it's too painful to to access and we don't want to move through whatever whatever it is, the grief, the anger, and then this can leak this can leak out in then in unconscious ways. We we don't even see it, we don't even we don't even know it. ⁓ and stuff can also be resigned in the shadow because out of ⁓ Our family dynamics growing up or or societal dynamic or friend dynamic, you know, it it doesn't feel safe enough to maybe express, you know you don't feel it's ⁓ yeah, you don't feel it's safe enough to ⁓ you know, be emotional or to ⁓ be vulnerable or to share ⁓ things that maybe you feel shameful about, you know, maybe something happens and you resign into the shadow out out of shame. So doing kind of like shadow work helps us to like reintegrate those parts. It lets us ⁓ it lets us kind of connect to those parts and to feel those parts again that were repressed, done in, you know, a safe way. ⁓ I think Carl Jung talks about, you know, what you know what's what what is in there in the unconscious will kind of direct our life and we'll call a fate. So we have to kind of we kind of have to go into the unconscious And to see and to make it conscious and to understand, okay, like there are these mechanisms in there, and maybe it's like patterns of relating that are no longer serving you. Maybe, maybe they did support you at one point in your life and made you feel safe. But as as you as you grow, maybe these are things that are actually holding you back. And there's this kind of phrase in the spiritual circle, like, ⁓ let go what doesn't serve you. You know, that's always thrown around and I like to think of as as, you know, maybe it's like these egoic mechanisms that have developed to keep us safe and to keep us as as part of the tribe or or from accessing love from our caregivers. Mm-hmm. so a big part of the journey is, you know, reintegrating these things into yourself, you know, like where are your triggers around being a angry? What do you feel shameful about? you know, where where is your grief and and really going into them and accessing them and kind of alc alchemizing them and and and learning how how these might ⁓ be influencing in influencing your life in an unconscious way. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I love this kind of Jungian idea of of shadow work. I think it's really beneficial for men because it it helps us to access vulnerability, to access emotions. and it can create the the fastest and most profound tr change. So yeah, I love working with my male clients with with shadow work, you know, bringing them into those emotions, those feelings. And letting them access them and seeing that it's okay to feel this stuff, you know. We don't have to bottle it up, we don't have to be alone, we don't have to like suppress it all down because we we have shame around it or or it's too painful to access. We we we can and we can create huge shifts in our lives if we do. speaker-1: Absolutely. And Carl Jung also often like one word he used in shadow in this world of shadow work is also the word of gold, finding the gold. ⁓ you have maybe an example of somebody you worked with? Like what finding the gold meant for this person? yourself? speaker-0: Yeah, I kinda Yeah, yeah. Well, I maybe start for myself, you know. I think something Yeah, I ha ha I kinda let me think. I ha yeah, I have two two examples, like a personal example and then maybe maybe a client. one one example was ⁓ my own singing voice, mm-hmm, which when I when I was growing up in primary school, I was a descant, which was, you know, in the choir was like one of the the boys that were able to sing the highest. Okay. speaker-1: I have a fan too. speaker-0: And I got really bullied for that. Like people used to really there was like two of us in the class, and the teacher always used to make a stand-up and like pick us out and say, like, all right, Dara, sing this part now, and I'll be like Angelic singing this part. And I got so I got so like, wasn't harsh bullied, but I got like, you know, laughed at on this kind of stuff, that I had I had resigned my singing voice to the shadow. Obviously I didn't know that as a 10-year-old, but my singing voice had gone there into the shadow. And it was only in the last like six, seven years that I've been able to reintegrate my singing voice again and be able to, you know, sing in public or sing in front of other people. So, you know, I didn't feel safe to sing. I didn't feel I I didn't I didn't feel like I could show that part of myself. But that's such gold. Being able to sing is beautiful. Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah, I had we had one client as well who had it around ⁓ around art. He had a he had a psychedelic journey speaker-1: I was eight. speaker-0: That he really he realized that he loved art. Art was like a huge part of his life for many years. And for whatever reason, I can't remember off the top of my head. But he in his journey, he was seeing all of these paintings and pictures, and he he reconnected to his artistic self. And when he went out, he actually went out and he bought this like massive piece of art painting and I put it up in his home. And he said he had a newfound deep appreciation for for art again. And he started on a journey of Of painting again. Yeah, wow. You know, and so for whatever reason, you know, his creative self was also suppressed the shadow. So, you know, there are those parts of us I think that get lost as we age. And I really believe like inner child work as well helps connect us to those parts where, you know, a lot of the stuff that we love to do as children are probably some of the things that our soul really loves to do or spirit loves to do. And as we age we just lose those things through like life and responsibility. But connecting back to those like early energies and those early s things that you you used to love to do is such a great ⁓ key and a gateway into living more of a happier and and soulful life, so to speak. speaker-1: beautifully put. And I feel that's also a great example of integration. Like for the clients you described the way I hear his part of integration or his path of integration was to buy an art piece by art materials and start using them again, right? ⁓ What other forms of integration have you seen? Because it's such a big word that's often used in this space. But I think it's often not really defined what it is. So it's like, bit abstract. speaker-0: Yeah. I think how how I see integration over the the last number of years working with many people is taking the insights, the wisdom, the knowledge, ⁓ and creating positive behavioral change around them. Yeah. So, you know, we can have all this insights and all this knowledge and all this wisdom on a retreat or in a psychedelic ceremony, but if you don't go home and make any like physical day to day changes, not nothing's gonna change in your life. So for me, in integration is really about like taking that wisdom, that self generated wisdom, and like putting it into practice. Which can be very difficult because sometimes you're going up against like years of conditioning and years of way ways of doing things. speaker-1: Yeah, that's almost guaranteed, isn't it? speaker-0: Absolutely. And for me, like integration could be simple as, you know, I had a ceremony and I recognize that I'm constantly dehydrated and now every day when I go home I'm gonna drink a liter of water when I wake up. And if some if somebody does that, that's integrating, you know, that's integrating wisdom about your body, about something you learned. Other modalities could be, ⁓ people really enjoy movement, so moving the body more, ⁓ having some sort of body based practice, qi gong, tai chi yoga. ⁓ art as well, you know. Art, journaling, ⁓ writing, writing poetry, writing stories, writing how you're feeling. Yeah, the thing about integration is it's like it's it's a it can be a lifelong journey, you know. So we need to approach it with kindness and compassion towards self and kind of know that we're in it for the long run. You know, we can't like just come back from a retreat and completely 180 change our whole life and start like doing these five hour morning protocols that some people do. You know, it's like the little things like what what can what can you what can you manage and put in and and like set set those kind of goals for yourself, achievable goals. Because if you set the bars so high and then you don't achieve them, you're just gonna set yourself up for, you know, failure and and more suffering. So also being out in nature, ⁓ having it having having a space where you can talk to other people about The experience that you had or the things that interest you, finding like minded community, like minded individuals. I think this is really, really important too. speaker-1: Absolutely. And yeah, that for me again brings up, for example, man's work, having a container like that, where you can talk about those things with other brothers, with other men. speaker-0: Yeah, I think it's it's really important. And what I really noticed in the last year is that like men need community. Yeah. You know, we need a safe space where we can share what's going on in our mind, where we can ⁓ support one another in our difficulties, kind of call each other forward, keep each other accountable, signpost each other, support each other. I think it's like a wonderful addition to ⁓ like a therapeutic space. lot of those spaces are therapeutic, but I find, you know, if someone's in personal therapy and then they have a men's group, this is wonderful because they have an opportunity to go to those spaces and kind of digest what's going on for them. And then they don't have to bring the whole emotional labor to their relationship with their partner. They have like an outside space. Of course our partners can be there to emotionally support us, but I really firmly believe in us having our own spaces, you know, individually in therapy, in a men's group and then Then you can bring it to the relationship. Because if you're turning up to a relationship constantly with all of your mess and it's chaos and it's all over the place, it's just it's gonna be a disaster. So I think it's really important for men to have those extra spaces where we can, you know, alchemize the jest, move through stuff, get like pointers. And particularly if it's about the relationship itself, you know. Yeah. ⁓ we don't have to be working it all out in the relationship. It can we can kind of find our own sense of what's going on and then and then bring it to the relationship. speaker-1: Wonderful. something I've witnessed around man's work is that some women are actually quite cynical about man's work. when someone would say, as you did earlier, men are suffering a lot, would bring like the, man as a privilege card. How are you seeing that? would you answer to what someone who maybe sees that really cynical or critical? speaker-0: Yeah, it's a good question, you know. ultimately like it's like the the battle of the sexes, isn't it? It creates this like division. And I think we need to, you know, cut each side a little bit of a a break. You know. I think men's spaces are really important for men, women as are women's spaces important for women. Yeah. ⁓ you know, women go off and do their work and do their thing and sometimes it can look alien to us on the outside. And it's it's it's just it's the same for women looking at men, you know. I I I really feel And then but there has to be like a a union back together. Yeah. And that's where the the real repair happens is in when we can both come together and come and be there together from a compassionate, kind, loving space. doesn't mean that some stuff is like acceptable behavior wise, but we can kind of hold more compassion for each other. And I feel like that's really missing in the world. Like you had this whole manosphere thing recently, and now now we're getting the and now we're getting the femosphere. speaker-1: see your shit. Is that a thing? Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. I saw it on the Sunday Times earlier today, like the femisphere and all these women getting this like toxic content, like ⁓ you know. Wow. So it happens on both sides, you know. We have to understand that, you know, what's happening in the shadow for men is also happen this shadow for women too. So we need to be able to acknowledge both sides of that and ⁓ heal our wounds and then create the create the positive behavioral change in the world. speaker-1: 100 % and what what comes up for me is when I hear you share about like the How do you call the women's sphere? Is that... You know, something I witnessed is that often in marginalized groups, there's a lot of shadow ⁓ through the marginalization. And that needs to be addressed because if it's not addressed, it comes up in the first best moment. And I've, for example, seen that in nightclubs, are predominantly gay spaces and where artists we are not allowed to perform in drag because it's like too much on the feminine side of the gay world. And it's not the butch masculine, hyper masculine, gay stereotype. So they have been excluded in their own world, in their own spaces. And I found that really mind blowing to how can you just pass it on? it's trauma reenactment, right? It's like, if you don't resolve it, if you don't address it, it will come up somewhere. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: I think that's a good example of actually shadow coming up in a very unexpected way. speaker-0: Yeah, wow, interesting. I think sometimes when we go we get too entrenched into one thing, then also we all all of a sudden we become the thing we're trying to get away from. Yeah. speaker-1: So true. Like men who try to be very different from their fathers and then realize, fuck, I'm a father. speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. It comes full circle. speaker-1: And I wondered, you know, if, if, you imagine that, that some men are listening who have never done this kind of work and are curious to explore it, like where would you point them to? Inwardbound.com. speaker-0: Yeah, definitely.com. ⁓ yeah, I I I really feel like, you know, trying to look for a men's circle or ⁓ you know, like a men's mentor, first of all, that you resonate with their with their language and what modalities they're using and maybe their background. Because some guys will come to me, they'll love my work and they'll really click with my work, and maybe some will come and they won't enjoy my work for whatever reason. And that's okay. You know, it's like I really believe with with teachers you go to, it's like, you know, find what works for you and then leave the rest. You know, if it doesn't resonate, don't just like swallow it down. And I think that's important. I think men have really good bullshit with radars a lot the time. And I think it's really important for us to to tune into that and say, like, you know, is this guy living a life or promoting values that are ⁓ congruent with my values? And if yes, then maybe go to his workshops and go to his men's circle and go to his retreats. If not, don't force yourself to go there. So I think first of all it's like find find a a a men's mentor or teacher or coach that you're really clicking with and then go ⁓ yeah see how you get on, see see how the how the practices are, see it what the retreats are like, and then notice if there's any shift or change in your life. and yeah, kind of kind of start from there. But like, yeah, general generally a men's circle is is the first thing to to check out. And you know, just speaking to it, it can be so courageous. And very brave for a lot of guys to go to those spaces because sometimes like from the get go they demand a lot of vulnerability and they demand, you know, a lot of like sharing and feeling, which can be very ali alien for guys, you know. Normally they're used to sharing about sports or, you know, economics or finance or something like that. And it's like, all right, no, share about your like childhood or share about your relationship with your partner or whatever the theme and the topic is that that week. And sometimes it can feel very, very like uncomfortable. You know, I've I've said in many circles where there's like such a big air of uncomfortable energy in the space, you know, and after a few rounds of sharing and vulnerability it kind of like softens and dissolves. And, you know, a lot of men who have been to my spaces say like after a few weeks they feel like they know those men in the circles deeper than they know maybe their their long term best friends that they've been going to the pub with for many years or their father or their brother. Because, you know, there is this real like deepening in those spaces where we get to connect in a really authentic and real and raw way, which is kind of a a privilege in the world these days. speaker-1: Yeah, I totally agree with what you shared about the man's work. And I guess in the light of where we can point people towards part of that is also like, how can you recognize a good facilitator, for example, in the psychedelic space? And I heard you also share about screening, and that's maybe also a word that's not so familiar for people outside of the space. speaker-0: Yeah. No, absolutely. I feel, you know, when whenever you're going to a retreat or a ceremony or to a new teacher, I think it's really important to do some kind of background checks and make sure that, you know, they're doing their due diligence for you. So th they're creating the safe container before you even get there. So for the realm of psychedelics, you really want to see you know, are they checking, you know, your mental health history? Are they working with you for your intentions? Have they checked if you're on medication? Are they checking your your physical health as well, your physiology to see if, you know, it's safe for you to to work with psychedelics? Are are you on any medication? These kind of things are like very important ⁓ green flags for me. If if they just accept you and don't ask any of these questions, that's a huge red flag. Yeah. ⁓ so I feel like going into a psychology space is important to be well prepared as well. Like are they giving you preparation information? Are they teaching you simple things about like your breath, how to co-regulate your or co-regulation that happens, how to self regulate? are they are they ⁓ yeah, really, really offering some preparation info? And then also I think one of the most important things is are they do they have a follow up integration program? Yeah. ⁓ are they really ch available after the retreat to check in? You know, they're not just gonna disappear off on a plane to Colombia or wherever or Peru. Are they really there if you're having challenges? Are they there to be able to have a phone call? Are they there to be able to offer additional support. Yeah. So I feel like these these things are really important. And then in the space themselves, you know, I feel like it's really important for people to know that like you have the full sovereignty and autonomy in a psycholytic space that if if if it doesn't feel right, you don't have to take the medicine. You know, if you're getting a weird energy, your intuition, a weird vibe, you don't have to you don't have to take the medicine. You can you can stop at any moment. And if the if the person holding the ceremony is giving you a hard time for that, that's a big red flag for me. Yeah. You know, I think it's any everybody's personal choice whether they want to ha take it yeah, proceed or not. So and the same around asking questions. You know, if there are questions coming up, a good facilitator will be able to answer all those questions to the best of their ability. If they're kind of pushing you off and saying like, ⁓ don't worry about that, don't don't think about that, that's another another red flag. Yeah. ⁓ so speaker-1: see them. speaker-0: You know, I think there's a lot of people having really challenging psychedelic experiences in ceremonies that aren't held well. And I think it's such a shame if this keeps happening because I feel like it's gonna ruin it for everybody. So I really hope there's like a maturation in the space where more people do good work. ⁓ you know, people support each other and and send people to the right places for working with medicine. Yes. and I feel like we'll do a lot better as a psychedelic community. if we're able to support each other in that way. so yeah, I hope people really like, you know, check reviews and and check their facilitators, check their backgrounds. And again, it's the same as men's work. Check, do I click with this person? Are they speaking my language? Do they feel like and understand me and meet me? Are they giving are they giving me the time? speaker-1: Are they walking their talk from what I can tell? Deepak Chopra I guess. speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. I think it's god. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, it's we're living in we're living in a bit of a black mirror crazy time at the moment, you know. So ⁓ I think having discernment in the spiritual space, in the psychotic space is v is very important. speaker-1: And earlier heard you use the term like fluffy spirituality. that also part of like finding good facilitators to like go beyond that? speaker-0: Yeah, I think it's yeah, it's it's important to speaker-1: What does fluffy spirituality maybe mean for you? speaker-0: Yeah, it's a good question. I feel like, you know, in a in a lot of these containers, I think maybe people are just going around in circles. And I think, you know, the personal development sphere is a bit like this as well. Like you're always broken. There's always something that needs to be fixed. are you actually feeling the feelings and moving through it, or are you just spiritually bypassing it and it's love and light? I feel like speaker-1: spiritual bypassing speaker-0: ⁓ spiritual bypassing for me is kind of moving into a space of like love and light and not really connecting to our emotions and our feelings and processing them in in the in the correct in the correct way. Like, you know, feeling your anger and moving your anger and being in your anger, it's okay. You don't have to transcend it and say, like, ⁓ I'm never angry. I'm a love and like, compassionate loving person. It's like we have all of these quote unquote negative emotions and I think it's important to do the work on those too. You know, like shame, anger, grief, pain, suffering, all of this kind of stuff. You know, we have we have to move through it. It can't be all just like glitter glitter and white clothes and crystals. so yeah, I think it's it's ⁓ yeah, important that you're you're actually kind of doing that deep inner work and moving through the emotions and being in the body and yeah, doing doing the more grounded practices too. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, it gives me a lot of hope to talk to you and I feel it's important to have exactly those spaces. And I feel that's we're coming back to the question we started with about science and ancestral wisdom and how they can go hand in hand. ⁓ And how we can be very spiritual beings and at the same time not bypassing the human side. speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah. I really feel like on the on the spiritual journey, I can kind of speak for myself, that there comes to a point when, you know, you I realize that I'm inherently not broken or I don't need to be fixed. I'm like perfect perfectly imperfect. ⁓ and I think there comes a point where ⁓ people need to start just living their lives and you know, not not like constantly seeking. I love this book, you know, the The Alchemist. speaker-1: Like the emotional side. speaker-0: He goes off on his big seeking journey and realizes, you know, he has everything that he needed already. Sorry, spoilers, spoilers. speaker-1: His treasure was in his hometown, like in his home country. speaker-0: Yeah. And it's it's kind of like, you know, one thing in the psychological sphere is chasing those peak experiences constantly and either it's this chasing community or chasing those big high moments, but it's like how can you like bring that back into your day to day and just l start living a a loving and happy and fulfilling life? ⁓ I think that's that's ultimately the the real work, you know. speaker-1: Totally agree. And as a last question, if people want to find more about you and your work, about your offerings, where can they find that? speaker-0: Yeah, so all the psychedelic work is through ⁓ inwardbound.nl. ⁓ more of the men's work is up on my personal page, innerwork.ie. ⁓ so yeah, all the events and retreats that I run are up on those. And if they want to follow me on Instagram at D A O R S T E W Y at Dar Stewey, they can connect with me there. Awesome. Yeah, great pleasure. Thanks for the wonderful questions. speaker-1: That's awesome, wonderful. Thank you so much, Deva. Thank you so much for being here on Inner Alchemy. If this episode resonated with you, then please share it with someone who might benefit from it. And if you want to go deeper, then you can check out my 10-day course called The Missing Piece that teaches you how the nervous system works and how you can start to regulate your own nervous system. You learn powerful tools how to quieten your mind and your nervous system. how to get in touch with your emotions and how to feel like who you are is truly enough. And if you would like to work one-on-one with me, you can schedule a free session through my website georgestuby.com. And you can also find me on Instagram as imgeorgestuby.com. I'm really looking forward to get in touch with you and also to welcome you in one of the next episodes. Stay present, stay embodied, and I'm sending you much love.