Latest / TheDocNCarolynPodcast / TheDocNCarolynPodcast Episode 149 "The Experiment" (Rev 14)

Transcript

TheDocNCarolynPodcast Episode 149 "The Experiment" (Rev 14) · TheDocNCarolynPodcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Episode 149 of the Doc and Carolyn Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome aboard.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's good to have you here.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: I had to banish um a family member from from social media.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_06: Mm-hmm.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: And that's been uh it's been very stressing.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean it really has been.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I banished him years ago and I have slept like a baby.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, uh, I I I'm not sleeping like a baby.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know if if uh as a listener, if you've had to um deal with disconnecting from people that you're that you respect, people you like.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um also I wanted to say uh for people that are listening to this to this podcast from elsewhere, from uh overseas and everything, I was looking at uh Buzz Sprout as our uh podcast host.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: And um this is a list of countries that are listening to the to the show.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, of course, the U.S., United Kingdom, Japan, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Italy.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: I think I have some friends that were, we have friends that were in Italy this uh last week.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think they maybe did a download.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what that is.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: South Africa and Chile.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: Chile, we've had frequent uh listeners in Chile, so but all these countries around the world.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what your relationship is with with your government wherever you're listening to this, you know, maybe South America is a is a good question for the government.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: How is your tr what is your trust level with the government at large, but particularly as it relates to uh what happened after COVID, frankly.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_07: Mine is at level zero.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well you're you're in the business and you went through it from a medical side, but but for the rest of us that you know the position that I was put in at one point was uh they were trying to force us to get vaccinated.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: And if you didn't get vaccinated, you know, I actually talked about it on the show before that I had the great blessing to to just go to you and and you know your clinic and you did my testing because it was mandatory testing after COVID.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: So as as COVID, the way COVID relates to this family member that I banished, this this uh this fella is he's a he's a Democrat, and I and I get it.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: Here's my issue I know how most of the people that are supporting the Democrats grew up, my my family members especially, because we grew up in the same circles.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: I know what our parents taught and what they believed.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: And they they didn't believe that that a man could think in his mind, I'm a woman, and now have you have to treat him like a woman and call him a woman's name and do anything he demands that you do to validate the fact that he calls himself a woman.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: You have to do that.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: Now you're gonna tell me my parents, my grandmother, who is kind of the the the gold standard for human beings as far as as far as I'm concerned, but but but my people, my people who know how who know her and know how she raised us, they know better.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: But why, but why do you just why do you go along with this nonsense?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_07: Why your cousin who is the same age as your dad, yeah, he still supports all that stuff?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but that's my question.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm saying that's not how you were raised.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: We know better.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: We know better than this.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: We know that you you shouldn't uh allow uh a grown man in a woman's locker room in a woman's space, our daughters and our wives are changing.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: Why is it okay?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: Why what happened to make you think that's okay?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then, but but all you want to talk about is Trump.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_07: I don't know.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_07: Doesn't make any sense.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: And and beyond that, I mean, I was I was in New York a lot in the 90s.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: Just I was there probably four times a year in the 90s.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: I know what people thought about Trump.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody thought he was a racist, nobody believed that.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, and and we've I've I've heard everybody talk about it.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: They talk about how Trump was the name that was dropped in all the hip hop.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody loved and looked up to and admired Trump.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: He was he was looked at as a little bit of a maybe a not a hoax, but a guy who was a showman, like a Barnaman Bailey bigger than life figure for New York, but he was never ever considered a racist.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Why would he be on NBC on The Apprentice?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's one of their flagship shows.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: It ran in prime time if they knew this guy was a racist.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: Why would Oprah have him on if they'd it the View had him on?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Barbara Walters talked to him.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: All these people.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_07: They didn't just have him on, they were fawning over him.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: They're fawning over him, right.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: The fact that that the media just suddenly started saying he's a race, he's a racist, and everybody, not everybody, but these folks who are susceptible, I guess that's the right word, susceptible to programming, susceptible to uh conditioning, just sucked all that up hook, line, and singer, just took it all in.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: And now every time something comes up from a political standpoint, it's automatic.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: I side with the Democrats.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's insanity with butchering kids.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: What about the trans, like this this governor, uh, this this person that's running for governor of Texas, I won't even call his name, but he's talking about God is non-binary.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: And there are, you know, 36 genders.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: And and what and yeah, uh they they call it and they and they package butchering children into a nice little where it's gender-affirming care.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: They always gonna say they always gonna put a nice little uh layer of cream cheese on everything and make it sound all right, you know.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, man, um, I haven't seen you in a while.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: Everything good?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're good.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: Say, what you've been doing?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I you know, the the other night I ate a piece of my own foot.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: We're having a serious conversation here, and I say, Yeah, I ate half my foot.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: I would assume you were joking.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, but I'm not.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm on crutches and I got bandages on my foot, and I got a I got a stub there because I ate half of it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_07: And I'm gonna slowly walk away.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_07: No, well, why not?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Why would you walk away?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_07: Because you're nuts.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: You are nuts if you eat your own foot, but you can't, but but people will talk to you.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, I'm a woman.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: You stand in, you got a full beard, muscles, you know, and you know, an Adam's apple, you got it all, and you're gonna say, Yeah, yeah, I'm a woman, yeah, I'm a woman.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: You cannot talk to me crazy.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: I don't let people talk to me crazy.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: As this as so listen to me.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: So so this, so here I'm going someplace with this.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: So the party loyalty thing, you you absolutely are loyal to your Democrats.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna play an interview.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's actually not an interview, it's a Zoom call with a doctor that just wrote a paper about the Tuskegee experiment.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: Are you familiar?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_07: I'm familiar.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: The Tuskegee experiment, if you don't know anything about it, you gotta stay and listen to it and find out what it is.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh for those that already know, I don't have to tell you anything.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't know what it is, it's a medical experiment that was allowed to go on for 40 years, where men were infected with a disease and it was allowed to run unchecked so they could study it in these human beings.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_07: When they had treatment.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: And the and treatments were available, but they let it run because they and and and listen to this.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: So the doctor that is on this Zoom call, this is something you'll never see in mainstream media, you'll never see it any place.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: I found this, I was just digging around on on Facebook, on uh YouTube rather, and found this Zoom call from this doctor who wrote a paper for the 50th anniversary of the Tuskegee experiment.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_08: The blue ribbon panel is very late.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_08: It's in 1969.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_08: So the study has been going on for 37 years at this point.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_08: And so the CDC was concerned.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_08: They knew they had a problem.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_08: But they got 17 non-CDC doctors to come in and review everything.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_08: There was one person on that panel, just one, who said these men need to be treated.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_08: But the other 16 on the panel waiting behind the CDC and they persuaded themselves we can't stop this.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_07: Sounds a bit like COVID, doesn't it?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it does.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: If you haven't seen Thank you, Dr.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: Fauci, because this is all connected.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: How the medical establishment, how the CDC and all of them acted during COVID, now that's not the first time.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's not the first instance of them being deceptive and on and on.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_07: So it's also not the first time a lone person tried to stand up for what was right.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: And got punished for it.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, got squashed by the majority.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: Before we listen to this interview with this doctor who's um publishing a paper about what happened during the Tuskegee experiment, listen to this.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: And this and this is what I want to direct to my family member.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: You love the Democrat Party so much, and you think they're the ones who are your savior.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: And you're probably buying into socialism, this whole socialist-Marxist move.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: They're saying that if you give us, you know, part of Marxism and socialism is they collect all your private property.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_03: So you think, you really believe that these politicians who are singing the socialist song are gonna collect your private property and mine and have a pile that reaches to the sky of all of our property and all of our money, and they're gonna turn around and give it to you.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's what you think.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: The guy that you love, the guy you're talking to me about who I support for governor of Texas, but the guy you support is is foaming at the mouth because he wants to collect all the guns.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: He's a Second Amendment opponent, he's a he's an enemy of the people, but you love him.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it and it's sick.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: And just and just to prove my point that it's conditioning.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: Check this out.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: During the 40 years of the Tuskegee study, during the four years of this, listen to who's in office, listen to the presidents who were in office during this 40-year study.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll get so you, I want you to hear this whole Zoom call so you can hear the death and the depravity of it.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: Listen to this depravity of it.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: This experiment started in 1932, and the president from 1929 to 1933, the first year of this thing, was was a Republican, Herbert Hoover.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: Then from 1933 to 1935, to 1945, rather, Franklin D.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Roosevelt was the president while the experiment is still going on.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: They're still infecting these men with disease and watching it progress with treatment available.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: So Franklin D.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: Roosevelt from 33 to 45, he's a Democrat.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: Harry S.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: Truman from 45 to 53, Democrat president.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: Dwight D.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Eisenhower from 53 to 61, he's a Republican.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: But guess who was in office in 1961?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: John F.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: Kennedy.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: The experiment is still going on.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: JFK, of course, was assassinated in 63.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Then after that, Lyndon Baines Johnson became the president.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: And guess what?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: It still continued.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: Democrat presidents, Republican presidents, just like during COVID.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: I won't get into that again.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: But and then finally, Richard Nixon was in office in 72 when the media got a hold of it after 40 years.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_07: Wow.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: And it stopped.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't realize it was 40 years.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: 40 years this went on.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: And they and they had a whistleblower going to the CDC and saying, this is ethically wrong.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: You can't affect people and not tell them and then hold the treatment back just to watch.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: And they all they got a panel of doctors to evaluate it and then got another panel of doctors to come in, look at the evaluation, and say, nah, that's not that no, we're gonna keep doing this because science is more important.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_07: I'm Carolyn Kilgore, founder and provider at TrueHealing Healthcare.net.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Why functional medicine?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_07: Because you're more than just a list of symptoms.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_07: Traditional care often masks the problem, but functional medicine digs deeper to find the root cause.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: What makes true healing healthcare different?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_07: We move away from the one size fits all approach.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_07: We look at your environment and your lifestyle to create a roadmap tailored specifically for you.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: What if someone really wants to make a change?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_07: If you're tired of feeling fine and want to start feeling great, it's about proactive wellness, not just reactive treatment.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: What's the deal with telemedicine?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_07: As long as you're 18 and have an internet connection, you can have a visit in the privacy of your own home or anywhere else in Texas.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_07: We're able to order labs or prescribe or whatever else you need.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Truehealinghealthcare.net for the great state of Texas.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_06: The Docky Carolin Podcast!
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, welcome everyone to today's Newswise Live event.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have with us Dr.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Martin Tobin, who's authored a paper coming out next week in the journal from the American Thoracic Society about the Tuskegee experiments.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was 50 years ago this year that reporting in the New York Times exposed the Tuskegee experiments, which had been happening for 40 years, on a group of unsuspecting African American men in the in the area of Tuskegee, Alabama.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: These men had contracted syphilis and were told that they were being treated for it, while uh a group of researchers, including the CDC and another government offices, um, had sanctioned this experiment to actually not treat these people and allow their syphilis to go unchecked while they monitored and collected information about the progression of the disease.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where we are here, 50 years later.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And Dr.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Tobin uh has some thoughts to share about this and some info from his upcoming paper.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like the overall gist is this is something that we need to raise awareness about so that the scientific community can ensure that it does not ever happen again.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: So with that, I want to turn it over to Dr.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Tobin and invite you to give a quick summary of the topic of your paper and what you feel is important for people to know about the Tuskegee experiments.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_08: Thank you all for uh participating in this.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_08: So in 1932, the major health arm of the U.S.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_08: government began the Tuskegee study.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_08: They intentionally withheld effective treatment against a life-threatening illness in 400 African-American men and continued the study for 40 years because they wanted to document what happens to the body when syphilis goes untreated.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_08: When the study began, syphilis was one of the most feared diseases in the world, causing dreadful complications of the heart and brain and early death.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_08: Treatments existed from the 1920s, but the researchers withheld these from the men and instead gave them dummy pills, lying to the men that these were effective.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_08: All the men were black.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_08: The study was not conducted in secret.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_08: The CDC reported the dreadful complications of untreated syphilis in 15 articles published in high-visibility medical journals, but not one doctor anywhere in the world published a protest.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_08: In 1966, a social worker wrote to the CDC, but the CDC told him that the study was too important for science to stop it.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_08: After being rebuffed repeatedly across six and a half years, the social worker finally reached a journalist and the story broke on the front page of the New York Times.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_08: The American public was horrified, and Congress introduced regulations for conducting medical research.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_08: As with any catastrophe, we owe it to the Tuskegee men that we never forget the ordeal they endured.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_08: And the 50th anniversary of the uncovering of the study is a time of special memory.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Dr.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Tobin.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: For everyone, Dr.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Tobin is professor of medicine at the Heinz VA Hospital at Loyal University Med School in Chicago.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And he's also working with the American Thoracic Society to publish this paper in the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that should be out next week.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Tobin, can you tell us a little bit more about what your recommendations are to ensure that something like this never happens again?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_08: The crucial lesson from the Tuskegee study is that the conscience of the researcher is far more important than all the regulations in the world.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_08: So medical researchers need to look at the Tuskegee study and see how they might be corralled into acting like the junior researchers on the Tuskegee study who provided the driving energy for the study across its 40 years and to make sure that they are not part of a similar unethical operation.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, for the general public, it's difficult for the public to know what research studies are ongoing.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_08: They only become aware of studies after they're published.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_08: And if then they see something that they consider problematic, they can contact the researchers themselves or their supervisors would be a dean in the medical school.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_08: And if that fails, then to contact journalists or uh members of Congress.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any uh are there any reports or or history about this that there were any attempted whistleblowers that were rebuffed during this?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_08: There really wasn't a whistleblower.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_08: The key one was uh Peter Buxton, who is the social worker.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, a whistleblower kind of goes above the investigator and contacts supervisors.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_08: He went directly to the people, and he really he was going to the leadership within the CDC.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_08: He went directly to the director of the CDC, and the director of the CDC replied back to him, and they brought in a panel of 17 outside experts.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_08: And they said, This is far too important for science.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_08: We can't stop this.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_08: They were able to persuade themselves that it was too important.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_08: And so, in a sense, he was not as a whistleblower in the usual sense, because he's he's facing them head on.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, members of the media, please think of any questions that you have.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome to chat in the chat that you have a question.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: We can invite you to get on audio and or video and ask the question yourself.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you put the chat, if you put the question into the chat, I can ask it for you.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Tobin, this history of Tuskegee, I have a sense that, and maybe you know some some more details about this, that a lot of this has been forgotten by the American public, if it was ever truly known in significant detail to begin with.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts about uh the awareness of this?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what can we do to increase that awareness?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And what kinds of things about this are you concerned that the American public maybe never even was really fully made aware of or has forgotten in the in the 50 years since?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, I suspect that there was a considerable awareness when it broke 50 years ago, when it was on the front page of the New York Times and it was covered in all the media at that time.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_08: But there was a survey done kind of of the American public, a pretty large survey about 10 years ago.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_08: And basically it highlights that people know next to nothing about it.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_08: 90% of people who were surveyed didn't even know it was being carried out by the US government.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_08: They didn't know that uh that basically that it extended over 40 years.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_08: The vast majority, about 90% again, didn't know that.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_08: And that it they thought that it had stopped when penicillin was introduced.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_08: They didn't know that the study went on for 20 years after that.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_08: So basically, the American public has very poor understanding of it.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_08: The men in Tuskegee suffered a major injury, and to forget the injury that they suffered is adding another layer of injury to them.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_08: So we we owe it to them to be able to remember uh what happened to these people.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: We have a question from Dan at BuzzFeed.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, about your observation that it's really the researcher's conscience is the guardrail here and not so much the mechanism of IRBs and so forth.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, could you expand on that a little bit, like what this tells you?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_04: Because I mean, there there are people complaining that uh things like challenge trials could have been tried in the pandemic, but the system of IRBs and so forth, you know, prevented that from ever being realistic.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: You know, is all that machinery unnecessary?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_04: You know, if it's really just the conscience of the researchers here, would this happen again, you know, regardless of that?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_04: Or, you know, how what do you make of the modern machinery to try and prevent this sort of thing?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_08: So I mean the machinery is largely in terms of informed consent and institutional re review reports.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_08: And I believe that these are necessary.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_08: Uh the conscience on its own is not enough.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_08: But you you need both of them.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_08: But people focus on the IRBs and informed consent and they kind of feel, well, this could never happen again.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_08: And when When dreadful things happen, generally the leadership of NIH and CDC, as happened with Guatemala, which was disclosed 10 years ago, they immediately tend to come out and say, this could never happen again.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_08: We have all kinds of precautions in there.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_08: I don't believe that that's the case.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, you need the precautions.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_08: All the precautions need to be there.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_08: But the in addition to that, the primary message is that for the researchers themselves, that you have to, because I've been doing research for 40 over 45 years directly on patients.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_08: And you have to ask yourself, is this study truly ethical?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_08: That's the crucial part.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_08: And that did not happen in Tuskegee.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_08: The only person who was troubled about the ethics was the social worker.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tobin, uh, what resources are there for scientists that would like to raise an ethical concern?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_08: Typical process is that if you're suspecting something, then you go to the dean of the institution.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_08: You go to one of the high the leadership of the institution and you raise questions about it.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_08: If you feel that you're at risk by going within the institution itself, you can go to the uh, there's a particular uh office within the NIH.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_08: It's called the Office of the Ombudsman.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_08: And as soon as you put uh whistleblower and NIH into Google, it will give you information on that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_08: And so you could you can go to that particular office and be guaranteed of anonymity.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_08: There'll be no problems, and then you can pursue it.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_08: So there's clear uh uh processes that are available if you are worried about this.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_08: But again, in terms of whistleblowing, I mean, I have you know no particular expertise on this, but that I know those processes operate from the time when I was a journal editor that I knew about it.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: During the process of these 40 years of studies, I remember that there was some sort of review by a so-called blue ribbon panel.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And they even, under the guise of reviewing things, allowed it to continue further.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell us more about what that process was like and why that failed to intervene at the time?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_08: So, I mean, this is the study begins in 1932.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_08: The blue ribbon panel is very late, it's in 1969.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_08: So the study has been going on for 37 years at this point.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_08: And so the CDC was concerned.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_08: This was after they had been contacted by the social worker.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_08: They knew they had a problem.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_08: But they got 17 non-CDC doctors to come in and review everything.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_08: There was one person on that panel, just one, who said this is problematic and these men need to be treated.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_08: But the other 16 on the panel waiting behind the CDC and they persuaded themselves we can't stop this.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_08: They it's always possible to come up with explanations for something like this that you'll persuade yourself, uh, it's probably more trouble if we try and change things.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_08: So that one of the things they came up with in that is they said that if we give penicillin, there could be complications from that.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_08: There's a particular reaction that you would get called the Herzheimer reaction.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_08: And so they said, well, it's too risky to give penicillin.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_08: And so it's much more important that we keep doing this and we keep these men untreated.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_08: Uh, but subsequently, when the study ended, the men were treated with penicillin, and not one of them developed any complications.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_08: So, I mean, it these are kind of the explanations that people go through in persuading themselves that bad stuff is is it's better to keep doing it.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_08: It's going to cause more trouble if we stop.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_08: And but I mean, that that's unfortunately it's a very human reaction.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_08: And it here is a perfect example of how damaging it is.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the aftermath of this report, we now have processes involved where uh subjects volunteering for studies and trials undergo various processes with informed consent or signing waivers and things like that.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts about how that process has gone since 1972?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is it effective today?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what is the general sense of what else might be needed for informed consent to be a success?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, the all of these processes, we owe all of this to the 400 men.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_08: They all all of the the rules and regulations that we have today are really a consequence of what happened to the 400 men in Tuskegee.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_08: So they are they bear the credit for what has happened.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_08: Those regulations are important, they're essential, but they're never going to be able to prevent something.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_08: They markedly lessen the likelihood of dreadful things happening again.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_08: But it is naive to think that something dreadful wouldn't happen again.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_08: It's almost like a belief in Santa Claus to think that it can't happen again.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_08: And we can't can't be that uh naive.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_08: And uh, but I believe the regulations we have are good.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_08: I don't see ways of necessarily improving them, but those regulations will never be able to compensate from a non-ethical researcher.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_08: That is the key thing, is that you have the people who do research that they ask themselves questions because there was a huge number of different doctors involved in the Tuskegee study over uh 40 years.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_08: And so these people all just fell in with everything else.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_08: They didn't ask any questions.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_08: And they they saw, you know, if this is the way things are done, and they just blindlessly follow everybody else.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_08: And that that is the real lesson, and that is a huge problem in medical research.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: We have a question in the chat from Simone Lindsey asking what happened to those 400 men after news of the study was published.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_08: So after the study was published, first of all, then the government had a panel that advised on it.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_08: And so that spent a few months, and then the panel advised that the study needs to be totally stopped, that nothing further, no further research on this should be conducted, that, and then that the men should be treated.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_08: And so the men were treated.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_08: Then, separately from that, the uh an attorney in the locality, Fred Gray, he uh sued the government, he sued uh the doctors, he sued various people, and that case settled out of court.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_08: And then each of the uh men who were part of the study who were still alive, because a number of them had died.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_08: They had died from their on-sweet at syphilis, quite a number of them died.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_08: It's difficult to get statistics on the number that died, but it it's somewhere between 30 and 100 died directly of being included in this study.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_08: And uh so then once that uh lawsuit was settled, the men got 37,000 each.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Over that long of a time, um it stands to reason that the disease progression, for especially for those maybe that had but contracted it very early on in this time period.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um people may know some about the ravages of syphilis as it progresses.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: My guess and my question for you is some of those men, it I'm guessing it was too late to treat for a lot of the complications that can occur from a disease like if they hadn't died by that point.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: There were there were just unreversible things by that point, weren't there?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_08: And I mean, and obviously the additional tragedy here is that all of these ravages were reported out in the open.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_08: This was not a secret study.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_08: People would think something like this is a secret study, but it's not.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_08: So one of the real embarrassing things for the entire medical profession is that these ravages were reported in 15 papers in high visibility medical journals, and not one doctor anywhere wrote uh an article in protest.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_08: That's the so it's not just American doctors, it's not just the CDC.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_08: This applies to the medical profession around the world.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_08: And so, in the in these articles, they're telling, even if you don't read the entire article, just the title of the article is telling you how horrendous it is.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_08: Because it's saying that this is a study about untreated syphilis.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_08: And then they're telling you about the increased mortality that occurs in these men.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_08: And then they're showing you the dreadful complications that happened, the heart and the brain and all these things incurring severe damage.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_08: And again, we don't think of syphilis today as being a big thing because we know it responds very well to antibiotics.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_08: That was not the case when the study was beginning.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_08: It was one of the most feared diseases that were known in medicine.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_08: And uh, so it went on.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_08: And uh, so the the ramifications of this, particularly for the entire medical profession, are enormous.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Dr.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: Tobin, um, we're kind of maybe getting to a conclusion here.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the next steps that you'd like to see as a result of your paper?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh question in the chat coming up: Are there any studies ongoing today that might be inappropriate in some way that there needs to be something addressed?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_08: Right.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, there's always studies, and you have to be on the watch out.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, obviously, we don't know what's around the corner.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_08: We never know that.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_08: But I mean, there's a big study that happened maybe a little more than 10 years ago, which was at the time of when HIV, there was a study done again by the NIH with full support from the CDC, where you had pregnant women in Africa who were, it was known that AZT, one particular agent that was effective for HIV, uh, prevented the transmission to the newborn infants.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_08: And when and then, but the problem was this was extremely expensive.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_08: And so they said uh this would be too expensive for most of the resource poor countries.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_08: And then they initiated a study with short course AZT, and then in the other group they had uh women with placebo.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_08: And so this is really very similar to what happened in Tuskegee.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_08: And this was happening relatively recently.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_08: And again, when that happened, there was a lot of controversy, and there was a lot of people defending uh that particular study.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_08: And so it there's it's never going to be the case that unethical studies are going to go away.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_08: I don't believe that is realistic.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_08: Instead, you have to be alert to them and be on the lookout.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, fortunately, the vast majority of studies are perfectly ethical.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_08: We need studies.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_08: I mean, I've spent my life doing medical research for 45 years.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_08: It's, you know, this is vitally important, but it's also very important to identify when stuff goes wrong, that you're aware of it, and you can't be blind to this.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_08: And the Tuskegee study is what the most one of the major ones, because everything that you need to know about research about ethics in research really is carried in the Tuskegee study.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_08: If you go kind of understand what happened here, you're able to see all the problems of it.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_08: And it's it's the best way of understanding research ethics.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_06: Doc and Carolyn Podcast!
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome to This Kingdom Minute with your host, Kimberly Blakes on the Doc and Carolyn Podcast.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_05: Hey guys, so the children of Israel were enslaved in Egypt for over 400 years, and finally God raised up a deliverer by the name of Moses.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_05: To go in with all the plays, you guys know the story, to deliver them from hard bondage.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_05: Slavery for 400 years, and a deliverer was raised up to go in and get the people out of hard bondage.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_05: You know that those people are Moses.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_05: They hated Moses, they got out there and they were able to walk through the way on my own and they feel my complaints.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_05: Jesus is my lord, and President Trump is my president.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_05: I voted for him, I'm voting for him, and God has not changed his mind, I will not change mine.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_05: God is not like you all.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_05: He does not change the same yesterday, today, and forever.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_05: So no matter what you say against the president, guess what?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_05: It ain't changing God's mind.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_05: God didn't change his mind about Moses, he didn't change his mind about David, he didn't change his mind about anybody that he chose, even though the people did not like him.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you for tuning in to this Kingdom Minute with your host, Kimberly Blakes on the Doc and Carolyn podcast.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_05: You can find me on Facebook at Kimberly Blakes, and I also have a podcast called The Faith Frame Perspective.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_05: I'll see you guys there.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: The revelation to John, chapter 14.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his father's name written on their foreheads.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: No one could learn that song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: These have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people, and he said with a loud voice, Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: Another angel, a second, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, and they have no rest day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I heard a voice from heaven saying, Write this blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Blessed indeed, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud, one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle, and another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the angel swung his sickle across the earth, and gathered the grape harvest of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the wine press, as high as a horse's bridle, for one thousand six hundred stadia.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: Doc and Carolyn Podcast is brought to you in part by Harry Solutions, Lovkin, Texas, USA.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: The DNCP is for entertainment purposes only and the exclusive property of DNC Media, LLCM.