Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 142. Breaking the Hero-Victim Narrative in Philanthropy - Travis Ning

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142. Breaking the Hero-Victim Narrative in Philanthropy - Travis Ning · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, I'm john.
• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: And I'm Becky. And this is the we are for good podcast.
• 0:05
  Becky Endicott: nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:15
  Becky Endicott: We're here
• 0:15
  Jonathan McCoy: to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:23
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started.
• 0:36
  Becky Endicott: Welcome, welcome. Hey, Becky, you know, my favorite people in the world.
• 0:38
  Becky Endicott: Who is that? Well, we have an example of one of them today.
• 0:42
  Becky Endicott: And they are someone who, like looks around and looks at inequities and says, I'm going to do something about it. And people who are dreamers and doers are such great visionaries to like take problems, set them on fire in terms of creating movements and creating resources around making the world better.
• 1:04
  Becky Endicott: And we have a huge visionary on the podcast today. So it is my great pleasure to introduce Travis Ning, to our community.
• 1:13
  Becky Endicott: He is the CO executive director of Maya, which is a program serving indigenous girls in Guatemala. And people I am telling you, this organization is amazing. They are working to unlock and maximize the potential of young girls to lead transformational change. And that just sounds very high level and aspirational. But I want to read you this quote, because when I was on Travis's website, this one was the one that stopped me dead in my tracks, and had me saying we've got to do better. Today, over 129 million girls are currently missing out on an education 96 million of whom should be enrolled in secondary school.
• 1:56
  Becky Endicott: Now, if you look at it through the lens of Maya, which is, you know, housed in Guatemala, in Guatemala, fewer than 20% of indigenous girls graduate from high school, and only 2% go on to university. So Maya is all about connecting talent to opportunity to ensure that this population is no longer overlooked, and that they have the tools to achieve their dreams. So if you are someone who is really what is bought into investing in the next generation investing in girls, I mean, I'm thinking about our friends, Tammy tibbits, and Kristen brand over it. She's the first who are creating these global movements to empower girls in education. We just got another little member of our army here with Travis. So Travis, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
• 2:43
  Becky Endicott: We're so excited to talk to you and learn about your mission.
• 2:46
  Becky Endicott: It's fantastic to be here. Thank you. I am just really curious about your journey, because you spent many years in something that I have not heard much about, which is like the women's microcredit movement, and you did that in Asia and Latin America. And from that, you talk about learning a couple of really critical lessons. One is how a mother has unyielding commitment to improve her family situation, which has to be one of the most powerful forces on earth. And the second one is how education plays a pivotal role in breaking free of cyclical poverty and making informed choices. And so you took those two lessons, you took these experiences, and you've made this incredible organization that is doing amazing things for young girls, how did this start?
• 3:31
  Becky Endicott: Where is your Where does your journey begin? And how did it lead you here?
• 3:38
  Travis Ning: Wow, well, thanks.
• 3:38
  Travis Ning: I have to give a ton of credit to my parents for the microcredit part of that equation. They created a microcredit organization called friendship bridge, which still thriving today. They set that up in my bedroom when I was in eighth grade. So it was something that was very much a part of where I came from, like physically, like in my bedroom, there was my god built in your bedroom. It was their journey, really the microcredit piece was really something they did, they started Vietnam, they moved to Guatemala. And yeah, it continues to be an incredible tool for good in the world. And I think with my ad when it first began, and again, my folks started MAIA in 2008. It was a really, it was a transition in many ways went from mothers to their daughters was the big shift, and just exploring the possibilities of what if, what if opportunity came earlier in the life of a woman. And in prior to her having a lot of children and perhaps marrying the wrong guy or making decisions that she didn't have information to make prior? What if and so it's really an organization based on that question. What if this opportunity presented itself earlier when she was only 12?
• 4:45
  Travis Ning: When in the age of 12, for girls around the world is a really pivotal age, it's often when secondary school begins. It's often when they go into a sphere of invisibility and certainly that's something that's really pretty prevalent here in Guatemala. But it's certainly not unique to Guatemala, as my colleague said, She's the first certainly indicated to you as well. And so that's where my begins is at age 12. We are about 12 years old now and have been tinkering with that. What if question ever since and the biggest part of that came? Maybe 2014 or 15? When it was, you know, well, what if she had an education that was specifically designed for her. And that was an epiphany that did not come to me, I went to that really reluctantly, when a few of our colleagues what Amala were visiting schools, just in the US just different charter schools, and saw that there's this variety, the word school can mean so many things. And often, we all have this rigid mindset of when you say school, I think most of us Hark to our own schools. But we went to school, like I pictured myself in 11th grade English class. And that definition is malleable. And so for my my colleagues here in Guatemala, who had never seen that were redefined, it was this mind blowing moment. And we decided, then they convinced us on the fundraising side that they really wanted to try. These are indigenous women that said, we could we could build a school for girls that's designed for them specifically for them and their talents. And that's what my has become is a school really tailor made for this unique population of 12 to 18 year old girls who are the first in their families to do anything beyond the second or third grade.
• 6:25
  Travis Ning: They're the first in their families to speak Spanish, so the first in their families to leave this village. And we call them girl pioneers. And it really is an incredible headwind that they're confronting for the rest of their lives, but also the possibilities that they represent not just for themselves and their families, but to create a precedent in Guatemala to show what is possible. And so Maya is still driving around that we're up to 11th grade at this point. So we're still not yet to the end of this journey. And having graduate COVID has thrown us for an incredible loop that everyone I looked at also presented some pretty enormous opportunities for us to, to accelerate certain areas. And I think in the world of philanthropy and fundraising, we all can see different opportunities now. And silver linings in spite of what has been a obviously very tumultuous year,
• 7:16
  Becky Endicott: I mean, the dreaminess of Travis's parents standing up a nonprofit where they are pouring into women, and then the more that they learn, they're figuring out okay, how can we prevent some of these systemic things that are happening in this nonprofit, by pouring into this area, and I'm just, I'm, like, caught up in just how inspiring It is like, and how that must have been for you is like a 14 year old kid, watching your parents like wage this war. You're like living in Colorado. And I just think that I, there's a stat on your website that as a mom, especially a mom of daughters, I read this in it, and I was straight shook by it. I mean, it's set, you know, while you were founded in 2008 2007, it was created with a focus on a younger generation of women who were born into the quadruple discrimination, which is they were poor. They were female.
• 8:12
  Becky Endicott: They were rural. And they were Mayan, whose fate would normally be to drop out of school, Marian mother, and repeat the poverty cycle. And I just think as a parent, you have so many dreams for your kids. And if that is your reality, I just think about, you know, Maya coming into this organization and the hope that's born out of that, and then what education can do to invigorates those communities and empower those girls. It's just a beautiful story. I'm just so glad you're in the world.
• 8:43
  Travis Ning: Thanks. Thanks.
• 8:43
  Travis Ning: It's a, I think there's a piece of the story that I really want to highlight. And yes, my parents played a fundamental role. And, and it's been an incredible privilege to be a part be a part of this journey since 2010. But I think all of this happens because of the women running MAIA that are here. And, and that's often a voice that can't be on this podcast, but it should be and voice is really, really articulating the what and the how, and the why of MAIA, because they're the women that have overcome exactly what you're describing, Becky, they were born to that situation themselves, and have defied all odds to get beyond that, and even to create a school that is now designed to defy odds. And all we really do on our end as fundraisers is to facilitate that process. So it's just want to shouldn't be give them a huge shout out because it really is their efforts and their commitment and their empathy that makes the whole world go round. Well, it's
• 9:41
  Jonathan McCoy: incredibly inspiring. And I think we talk a lot about legacy and just the family legacy that you're living out to is just so powerful to lean into. where I'd love to kind of get your feedback to is just hearing You're such a global mindset family. I mean, starting in Vietnam to Guatemala to Colorado. What's this connection You know, to the country, what drew your family to specifically serve? I mean, they're obviously, with a global mindset. You see somebody needs, what drew y'all to serve, specifically here, and then I'd love to dive more into the women that you're serving.
• 10:47
  Travis Ning: I mean, I think everyone I know, as always cautions themselves and everyone else to never go work within the family business. Right. And it is complicated. However, I think as a family, we discovered this place when I was backpacking in college, you know, just kind of wandering around, as we all had the opportunity to do. And if we were afforded that opportunity, and Guatemala statistically has the most need in the hemisphere, it's the worst gender equity gap in the Americas. And at the very bottom of that ladder, that totem pole of empowerment are the Mayan women. And so if you're going to look anywhere to work on girls empowerment in this hemisphere, Guatemala seems to be ground zero in terms of need. And obviously, it's reflected in our everyday news in the US, when you look at you know, this, these huge caravans of humans and desperate people that are looking for opportunity to meet this, the equation is really clear that it all lines up. Well, if you have this, then you have that it's an x, y sort of formula that makes perfect sense. So if you want to tackle that from either any angle of health education, just social justice, just good, the most sensible intervention, that's it. Like I said, I was very reluctant to jump into this. I had worked previously in Mexico with an amazing organization called mckone. And it focuses on the streets involved children and families, and came to Guatemala to check this out.
• 12:16
  Travis Ning: It's basically just give a no, like, I just wanted to say no.
• 12:19
  Travis Ning: And, and honestly, I'm a father of sons. So it, there's no, I do have a ton of sisters, but I am a father of sounds. And this was a natural connection. For me.
• 12:33
  Travis Ning: I've worked with youth endeavors around the world prior to this.
• 12:36
  Travis Ning: But when I saw what's called the girl effect, and I'm sure Tammy and Kristen, she first talked a lot about this is just this incredible. There's a selfishness and it's for me, and that it's immediate gratification, to see when when a need is met. And the opportunity is connected, how fast this happens, and how transformational and it's in our mission, the transformational power of growth, leadership. It cascades over everything. Its environmental, its health, its education, its economic prosperity, it really is the closest thing to a silver bullet we have in the world right now.
• 13:11
  Travis Ning: And, and it's all right there that nascent talent is all right there. Guatemala has a ton of problems. But it's sitting on top of a goldmine of talent. And it's just a question of figuring out how to connect up the points to where that that talent can actually service and assert itself in a way that this country desperately needs. Okay, I really,
• 13:31
  Jonathan McCoy: I love everything that you've said. And I just think the fact that you recognize you're sitting on this goldmine of the silver bullet is here by training, equipping these women and giving them the resources that they need. But I wanted to ask you something about what you said earlier is y'all develop curriculum, or just the way you support specifically for these women, these girls? What does that look like? Well, how is it different than just standard education?
• 13:58
  Jonathan McCoy: What are the things that are unique to your model that allow it to thrive? So you know, clearly in the culture there?
• 14:06
  Travis Ning: Number one point and I think this defies a little bit of convention, at least here in Guatemala. And john, I know you spent time working and living abroad as well. And perhaps you can relate to this.
• 14:15
  Travis Ning: I think traditionally, interventions here in Guatemala have really been what we call like gringo driven, you know, well intended person from the north, the Yankee rolls in on their white horse sets up shop tells people what they need to do. And the intentions of that action are benevolent, and virtuous. And the impact is often not. And I think what really defines my and makes this whole world go round. And like I said before, are the women that are from the community out there that are running it, it really is just, I feel like I'm an offensive lineman, I know, this big football group I'm talking to right now. Like,
• 14:55
  Becky Endicott: I understand, I understand what you're saying, I
• 14:59
  Travis Ning: just, I'm just walking for other people. And it's these women that my co executive director named Norma, I mean, she's really the one that's leading that charge, we're just setting the table for them. And I think that in a connection way with the girl pioneers that we serve, who else and if you look at statistically and these are stats from the US, same race, same gender connections and educational setting are the way forward. And I think if you look at the way that traditional development has been done with a white face, Surveys are not white populations. There's a huge gap there that as much as we try to empathize with the situation, I'm from Colorado, there's fundamentally no way I can do that. But if someone who looks at sounds and acts just like you, that's leading the charge, it's a whole different way. And so I think we bring innovations from across the world into the school and methodologies. We're very unoriginal in what we do in the sense that basically, everything we do is poached with permission, and largely, but why would I reinvent the wheel 1000 times. But we do this to kind of become a stage of innovation so that other organizations, experts can come and test out the methodology in our laboratory school. And the idea is that any program that wants it around Guatemala in the region can come and take it, we only have one school, we only want one school. So the way we scale is by giving it away. And I think that abundance mindset is something in the international NGO context, I think, is sorely missing. But I think over, as we all learned over 2020, we need to reframe and how we're trying to achieve social change. And I think this is the path one of the many paths forward and disrupting the way things have been done. So I would say that that's our secret sauce. The other piece, john would be, it's the whole girl approach this ecosystem. And the idea of, yes, learning math and literacy is absolutely important. But if you also don't know your own emotional language, you're stunted too, it's as important to be able to navigate your own emotions, your own resilience. So we have a very deep social emotional support program that brings in families who otherwise are outliers. If you are a father, for example, and you just had to put your 12 year old daughter into this pathway, you've got a lot of social pressure coming your way too. It's gonna be a lot of gossip about you. The headwinds hitting dad are different, but often how strong was what's hitting mom and the daughter. And so we need to bring everyone in line, we found out the hard way that otherwise if the girl will have to make a choice between this trajectory and her family, and we want her to be able to have both so we've designed a program that does both combines the girl and the family, so she doesn't have to choose between those two impossible choices. She can have both.
• 17:50
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• 18:47
  Becky Endicott: Check them out at gift butter.com. The way we scale is to give it away Wow. Okay?
• 18:58
  Becky Endicott: Because when you haven't, that's infinite game, but it's also abundance mindset. And if you are someone that is not thinking about how do I serve my community? How do I serve my my people? And you're thinking, How do I serve all communities and all people? And if I have something great here? Why would I keep that to myself? Like let's figure out how to replicate it. So that's one, you are one of the smartest people in this space that also is incredibly empathetic. The other pieces I am rubbing my hands together, and I'm getting super excited because I love that we are talking about the victim hero narrative. And nonprofits.
• 19:37
  Becky Endicott: This is something that john and I have had many discussions about. And I feel like you've teased this a little bit and I want to go into the awareness, a chord. And this is an organization that you started to really break that narrative of the white savior coming in and bringing their agenda and bringing what they hope to achieve into a space of which they probably do not have either a ton of knowledge or even insight into what life is like.
• 20:09
  Becky Endicott: And so as you completed this very important fellowship, you created this organization and I would just love to know more about it and what prompted it.
• 20:19
  Travis Ning: I think to begin with, like, definitely not, I'm figuring it out. And I don't think there's there's a point when it's ever figured out. It's definitely a journey, not a destination, but I joined the mirror fellowship and it was an incredible privilege to be selected for This this unique fellowship, it's designed for mid career professionals. So a lot of fellowships focused on younger folks, this one's not.
• 20:41
  Travis Ning: And it's meant to be an opportunity to scratch a professional itch that's just been nagging at you, I just had this like rock in my shoe for 20 years, and ever want to take my shoe off and like empty it out and, and the mere fellowship just lets you stop. It surrounds you with a community of support, but people who are not in your sphere, so it makes you zoom out in a way that I'm not used to.
• 21:03
  Travis Ning: I'm really right in the trees and not in the forest. And, and it says, okay, like, take out the chute. Let's look at that rock, and painful and beautiful and exhausting, and all the different ways. And what really nags at me and has nagged at me since the beginning of my career when I myself was a volunteer on my white horse going to serve in a way that I thought was, was good and virtuous as a Peace Corps volunteer. Even then, I just felt like wow, this is this is kind of messed up the way this is set up. Like, here I am, I graduate from college yesterday. And I'm here as this expert at this rural village in Paraguay. And I don't know anything, like I'm, but I'm perceived as an expert, just because of the way that I've been presented. And here I am, for two years trying to do something. And it was an amazing experience for me. But I think that the just the way that that was predicated the way that was set up, really got me going and ever since then, I've watched and really started looking at first volunteers and volunteer voluntourism, abroad as I think it's an amazing tool for folks in the US when they come back.
• 22:11
  Travis Ning: And they have this experience.
• 22:11
  Travis Ning: And they can convey the beauty of a place like Paraguay, which is no one ever goes there. So it's, it's cool to have. But what was the actual impact of those efforts? And I think that's what what is it about is about intention? Or is it about impact. And I think those are different things sometimes. And I don't think they need to be separate, I would like them to be the same, I would like impact and attempt to be on the same page instead of having to choose between one or the other. And what the awareness accord is, for organizations like mine, is to take on the power dynamics of philanthropy. Again, I think philanthropy is and I love preaching to the choir here is the way forward we need to engage people. But how we engage them around their intention versus the impact is where I think things go, right. I think organizations are often conditioned to just concede our power, we come into it without power, we're asking ultimately asking for a favor or a gift of some kind. And in doing so it automatically puts us a step back. We're on the backfoot from the moment go. And so when conditions come from that gift, we use it to say okay, we'll figure it out. Yes, well, yes, just Am I getting the check, because I'll do whatever it takes to get that check. And we never give the donor an opportunity to learn, we never presented upfront saying like, hey, do you want to have a true impact with this gift, because here's how that can be achieved.
• 23:35
  Travis Ning: A lot of times, it's a well intended donor who makes a condition or two, it has no idea that we've begun this dance, I liken it to like middle school dance. We're all there. We're dancing with music, and the donor is the DJ. And we don't even like the playlist, we just keep dancing to the same songs.
• 23:52
  Travis Ning: And everyone's afraid to go and be like, you know what, like, we've heard that same song 30 times, but we just change it up a little bit. It's so disempowering when you're an organization and your focus goes from your mission to serving a donor. And so I just find it incredibly inefficient, when we have to do that when we find ourselves in that awkward pretzel, and we're serving the needs of a donor and their whatever logistical need or an emotional need. And we're taking our eye off the ball. And in case of Maya, it's these grow pioneers, they have enough going on with all the support they can get. Yet 1020 30% of our time sometimes is around doing these things. For donors who don't want to do that they don't they want to mix up the playlist. And I think 2020 showed us that they they're aware of it, that they're willing to do it, but we're just too afraid to sometimes past or to set that forth as a possible expectation.
• 24:41
  Travis Ning: So they weren't a sport are very much a nascent idea is to give organizations the tools to be able to steer into that conversation and to have the very difficult talk to power of, hey, let's come to an alignment.
• 24:58
  Travis Ning: It's this awareness we're both gonna go into this aware we're gonna have an A chord, we're gonna agree that this is how we're going to engage and I want to have the language feel the check in with you along the way to make sure it's all it's all about maximize the impact, because we don't honestly have the time anymore. To be messing around this dance with the world can't wait. We can't dance the same song 50 more times, we have to move forward and find a new way to engage. And it's terrifying. I'd say it's absolutely terrifying. But if I a guy in my 40s from a very comfortable situation in evergreen, Colorado, if I have scary time. I was talking to power, well, then what am i expecting girl pioneers to do here in Guatemala who've come from that situation. So there's a level of congruency, if we're expecting one thing, from our organizations, we ourselves as leaders have to be congruent with that same expectations in our interactions with the powerful in our circles,
• 25:52
  Becky Endicott: the world cannot wait for us to stop dancing. I mean, I think this is a very powerful conversation. And I think that the way that you're saying it is also very gentle, because we've had, we've had this conversation with a couple of guests, and there's a lot of people who feel very passionate about just going in and having this white savior complex. And if I can, if I can advocate almost on behalf of the donor and the volunteer a little bit, we've created that narrative a little bit, we have said, You are the hero to our mission, you are the one that's making the difference in bringing this change to bear. And so it's a philosophical mind shift, to say, actually, when you come into this space, it's not all about you. In fact, it's, it's it's not even just about them and the people we're serving, it's about impact. And this is not about what you're going to experience and what you're going to get out of it. It's about what we need from you to be able to get the biggest impact possible. And that is a new narrative. That's going to be very challenging for us all to write. But I feel like you're living proof you're sitting in the what happens when you do that, more people are empowered.
• 27:03
  Becky Endicott: And to me, the donor is served even better, because at the end of the day, they don't, they don't most donors don't care about their name on something or what they did, or how they experienced it. They want the problem to be solved. They want to be a part of solving the problem. And so we have to create that new narrative. And I love the way you position that very smart.
• 27:23
  Travis Ning: I mean, I haven't figured this out just I just want to keep reiterating. But I think it does sort of the greatest capitalizing on this global epiphany, we had not just around the Coronavirus, but I think around Black Lives Matter.
• 27:36
  Travis Ning: At first, especially those of us involved in the sphere of trying to achieve social change, there was this moment of like, like our heads explode, like oh my god, there's so much more I need to learn. I thought I kind of had it figured out and I realized I know very little about what I don't know. And I need to really steer into that.
• 27:53
  Travis Ning: So you're right, Becky, we're hoping and kind of betting the whole farm that the people that want those insights and want the opportunity to learn are going to steer into it versus B versus being offended by it like oh, no, how dare you question my motives and my the way I give my money, and that's definitely gonna happen. Yeah, there will be some that don't come with us.
• 28:12
  Travis Ning: But we believe that there's, there's a, there's a world where there's a space for that conversation and through coming in and making mistakes, and it's a whole new language. No one's ever spoken this this way to donors, and they've never spoken back to it. So yeah, it's super awkward tons of mistakes. But that is also what learning is about. That's the growth mindset, right. And we think that that's, that's going to be ultimately an attraction, we hope that people are gonna want to come into that space. And they can't find it everywhere else, because I'm finding that philanthropists are often bored of the old way. They're tired, and they know people are dancing for them, and they don't want to stop dancing. I just, I just want to be real with you. But organizations, as you said, Becky, we've created this monster for ourselves. In many ways, we've laid out this huge red carpet where the donor just walks in gracefully strides along with what's going on? And how boring would that be, you know, if we're supposed to bring you joy and learning? Wouldn't this be what you want, I mean, again, a big assumption on our part, but I hope that's
• 29:16
  Jonathan McCoy: the case. And it's, it's no different than in our personal relationships, like, who wants to surround their self with people that are not just having these surface level conversations and serve, you know, putting on a good face for you. I mean, you want people that are gonna challenge and push you to become the best possible person. And I just think that this is not embrace because it's hard, you know, yeah. And it would force our profession to step into. These are more difficult conversations to navigate. But the reward on the end, is to get to the value and to the heart of why somebody would be even motivated to invest and the investments can be so much bigger. When you get there, oh, you get to that value alignment. And they know and believe that their money is going to do that through your organization. It's just it's worth it. It's worth the journey to take people on and I love that you're championing this.
• 30:02
  Jonathan McCoy: It's it's incredibly inspirational.
• 30:05
  Becky Endicott: I mean, I wonder what you would say, Travis, like for all of our people who are working in development right now, how can we talk to our donors about the power dynamic in their relationships to help break this victim hero narrative? Because in my mind, I'm thinking maybe start with your donors who probably identify as the most humble and have the highest emotional intelligence because there's some awareness there, and they would get it first. I mean, what would you say to are friends in the nonprofit sector who are thinking I do need to address this. So
• 30:39
  Travis Ning: the way that I'm trying to design this awareness court is around three specific steps. The first is from the outset, it's just aligning expectations. And I'm sure all of us who've ever raised funds have found ourselves into a relationship like how in god's green earth did I get into this situation? like going back to my middle school dance playlist, like I'm dancing to a song, I don't even know the song, I like the song like, tried to play here. And oftentimes, we probably ignored a couple of really red flags that we just sail past them chasing, chasing the check, right. And so this initial part, I think, is just aligning expectations. And as an organization for Maya, we put together eat those Doc, just says, Look, this is who we are, this is how we like to engage.
• 31:22
  Travis Ning: And, and right up front, this is what it's about. And if you don't like that, and it's not meant to be like a punch in the face, it's just like, hey, just FYI, this is who we are, this is how we engage. This is what drives us. For example, we're locally LED and driven. So my and women are running the show and my if you're looking for someone, a person from the from the United States that have their finger on the thumb of every decision of an organization, well, we're not, that's not that's not us.
• 31:52
  Travis Ning: Go find somebody else. But this is a bad fit from the beginning.
• 31:54
  Travis Ning: So just, we should agree to disagree. And we're gonna move on versus finding ourselves to the pretzel, and then wondering how we got there. So I think there's a piece just being really upfront with this, who we are, these are expectations, we asked, What is tricky about this is asking the donor, the same question, can you now tell me who you are, and what drives you? Because donors aren't used to actually telling people that in a in a, in a deeper way. And so we had this amazing call. And just as you said, Becky, like talking to your, your, your core donor who understands what we're trying to do, and I had a conversation with with a guy that has always been a mentor to me, and he's a donor. And he's like, I've never been asked that question. I don't even know how to articulate that. Like, I don't know how to say that. And I would love to be able to present that to all the organizations I support. But I don't know it's hard. And so my were tinkering with this, we put together a quiz. Like, what type of laptop is are you and I think to liken it to this, but it's a little bit like this whole Facebook quizzes. But I think it's a question that donors want to know about themselves, like I don't know, like in my cerebral donor at my innovative donor like so we create these four categories. And donors take this 10 second 10 question quiz. And at least it tells my tells us, okay, this is the way you like to take communications, you and you want to hear stories about this, you don't want to hear anything about this. So it allows us to segment and to at least cater our efforts to a specific thing versus trying to broadcast everything to everyone. And at the same time, we get a little bit of a Dana harness in terms of our development folks, okay, like this guy, doesn't like phone calls, prefers emails, you know, this, this woman loves phone calls and wants only stories doesn't want data, we can start to least be more efficient with the way we interact. And if we've been able to present our side, when things get awry, for example, like, Oh, I'm coming with my family, you know, I'd love someone in my to take me on a two day tour of the lake, that would be great. And we could say, look, you know, we've, as you recall, in the document we sent you were really impact rivets of pulling off a staff person for two days to hang out with you and your family is not our definition of impact. You can easily hire a tool guy to do those things. And also don't overthink. Yeah, totally Sorry, I didn't think about that. Like I think when we go abroad, and Johnny could attest this, you lose a lens of often a filter that we normally have in our pocket, you ever asked that of someone in an organization that you work with domestically, but when you go abroad, you kind of just lose your mind, sometimes totally, and you lose that. So it allows us to protect things.
• 34:20
  Travis Ning: Step two of all, this would be dignified engagement. So me and my family want to go visit a program in Guatemala rate, can we paint a wall? Can we dig a hole? Can we you know, serve lunch, Jimmy, you know, people want to do something for someone. And it's posed that sort of hero piece that we've all been trained to do. And we tell him, Well, we whatever interaction we're going to have is going to be dignified. And it has to be a win win. And we all have to be learners, and we ought to be teachers. So we're going to design a situation where that all those roles are there together. And maybe you don't get your fingernails dirty for that photo and Instagram, you're gonna leave value and you're going to receive value, it's going to be a reciprocal relationship and dignity is going to be for all not just for one. And then the third phase being can we share the story?
• 35:03
  Travis Ning: Can we all share the same story, not how I went and dug seven latrines for a village somewhere, but how I went worked alongside some folks. And I really didn't do anything. They could have dug their own holes.
• 35:18
  Travis Ning: But I went there as a learner and I learned so much about this culture, and I love this culture. And now we're, we're bonded and we have a friendship.
• 35:24
  Travis Ning: So it's and this village is telling the same story. So thinking of your social media posts, instead of the, you know, the white savior with their dirty shovels. Standing in front of a bunch of brown children.
• 35:37
  Travis Ning: Kevin, we have a different image of that. Can it be just a story of like what I learned, when I went and dug seven latrines, I get it. It's a flip. But it's the same story is the village retelling as well. And so those are the three steps that we're trying to really align our communications with. I have to say, all of this is really, in my mind sets always focused internationally, because that's the only sphere I really understand. And no, I would assume that it has relevance domestically within the United States in the same way, but I can't speak to that directly. I, I can only really design and think about this from wherever Maya, or for example, the she's the first our colleagues there, I talked to them extensively about this project, too. Because that we're operating in the outside of the US sphere, where the I think the hero victim dynamic is far more prevalent.
• 36:24
  Becky Endicott: I mean, I feel like john and Julie, like we found a unicorn in the nonprofit field, and he is in in Antigua right now. And what you're saying, Travis, is one of the smartest, most evolved gentle approaches to how we need to be shifting the lens on how we engage on how we communicate on how it's not as much inward looking as it is outward pushing to the group. I mean, I'm just getting so much from this conversation, I'm going to be thinking about it for days, if not weeks after this, because
• 37:01
  Jonathan McCoy: it comes back down to dignity. And I think we can solve the problems but lose our dignity in the process. And where are we at the end of that, you know, and so, I just, I just love the comprehensive nature of it. And I would encourage everyone to go to the awareness of cores website, there's some great resources and get really connected, and we'll plug all that in at the end. But definitely dive into this. I do think it's 100% applicable to every cause, in just the ethics of how we're storytelling and how we're engaging and involving donors and our mission. So thank you for all of that. Okay, I know, you know, there's so many stories you could tell us with your life and worldview. What's one that's really a story of philanthropy that stuck with you, from your time maybe that kind of charted your course a certain way? Or just has resonated deeply with you, Travis?
• 37:49
  Travis Ning: Such a good question. And I think, I mean, I think when when isn't isn't what we do as fundraisers? Isn't it?
• 37:56
  Travis Ning: Trying to turn a need into an opportunity? Isn't that like, in your simplest form? It's basic, yeah, that really, we tried to do right. And, and so I, what am I one of the reasons we kind of set up shop here from the US office moving here was to try to engage non indigenous Guatemalans in philanthropy, and really, really hard to hear for so many reasons, recent Civil War, just levels of like I mentioned before the top of the hour, you know, there's systemic issues of disparity that are so so entrenched here. And unlike the 2020s, that have revelations in the United States, that hasn't really been one of them.
• 38:39
  Travis Ning: So it's been a process. And I think I think back to one moment, when we had brought out some really like, I would call like outlier, early adopting Guatemala City folks who come from situations of wealth and, but really willingness to try and figure this out, rather than on to the school. And we just did this really basic activity where the girl pioneers, alongside these visitors did this activity, which is kind of a slam poetry madlibs combination, where each person comes out with this really powerful self narrative, you can't fake it, it's all about you. And I just watched these girls present their stories themselves, this five minute activity, and I just saw these folks in Guatemala City, just their, their jaws drop. And what it was, is they, they were seeing something for the first time, and I love watching epiphanies and seeing a need turn to an opportunity, that moment of connection, I find is the most satisfying thing and in this world. And I think seeing that firsthand and just watching and then also watching and this wasn't so joyous. But it was really profound as to watch this sort of Domino's in their mind of like, Wait a second, like this thing's been in front of me my whole life. I've never seen it now I do. And then boom, and then just watching the the Epiphany after epiphany, where that means I've come from and where How did I get here and how I see the world is now profoundly different from what it was five minutes ago, and even I'm still in contact with all of them. And they're incredibly engaged in my amount, but they're still doing it and I think we're all are still on that journey of learning. But every once in a while they just confess like you And can I just be something they don't confess to you but I just realized through my entire life, I thought this and now it's actually that and just this, that situation I'm learning together and and then we can bring in our indigenous team and they can have the same sort of epiphany as the same way because this is a really divided place, but they're definitely two sides to it. And so when you bring those sides together, that sort of explosion of reflection is mutual and to have that going back and forth. I mean, that has to happen before this hero victim dynamic can never change that has to be to get the dignity, you have to have gone through this process. And I think that process is perpetual.
• 40:59
  Travis Ning: And I think that I think it did that moment that questions that moment, I remember the face of one of these people, just the eyes of like, Oh, my God, it's like this curtain, the Wizard of Oz, curtain just got pulled back. And it's just, it's like, oh, my God, I've never seen this, I can't believe it took me this long to realize what incredible talent these girls actually have. That they are, they are all of that. It was a it was a really beautiful moment. And it was five years ago. But I still think back to it. Like it's a very vivid, vivid image.
• 41:27
  Becky Endicott: Okay, I love that of all the stories you could have told from your international mission, you told one about people who were in the community of which you're serving. And I have to say that just as a fundraiser, you know, we get so much joy, when somebody says yes, when we've asked them for a gift, you know, we're so happy to have that funding, we're so happy to be able to move forward. But when you can see the light bulb turn on above your donors head, and all of a sudden, to me, that's where everything shifts, because then they're not a donor any longer. They're a believer. And believers can move mountains and create movements. Donors can create, you know, sustainable funding, but donors come from believers, but you also get the people who are so passionate about what you're doing that they will not let you fail. And that is what I think I love so much about this conversation.
• 42:26
  Becky Endicott: And it I also just have to say our last and final question is, what is your one good thing, and I have no idea how you're going to be able to top anything that you have said in the last 40 minutes. So what is your one?
• 42:38
  Becky Endicott: Good thing? Travis?
• 42:41
  Travis Ning: Another really hard hearted? Great question. I think I just a firm believer in karma.
• 42:45
  Travis Ning: And I think there's a piece of this that you know, now I've been at this for a while. And it's funny when you realize like, Oh wait, people asking me for like insights and information because I'm usually the one asking all those questions, right. And, and I think there's a part common humility, I think are just hand in hand and realizing that you never know what side of this coin you're going to be on. And, and therefore, comment and then it goes back to what I mentioned before and the abundance mindset of time, and, and I'm just understanding and empathy for other organizations and where they are and what they're going through. I think that when I just remember karma, I think of, it's about them. It's about the movement, it's not about the organization, it's about the vision, not the visibility, it's the like, what is this all for?
• 43:33
  Travis Ning: And if it can serve a girl that's not in Maya or a girl that's in Mexico, or that's a girl, it's in Africa. Um, we're all for like, how can we make that happen? And I think just remembering that like, well, I would love the world to look at my the same way because we're gonna need help we always need help. And I just believe in that if you put in there you'll be able to pull out you know, and and it but if you don't, if you stick your blinders on and sharp elbows the way Unfortunately, this spear has been for a lot of time, well, then you probably get some of that too. And we still get that you know, for sticking out on the face every once in a while. But we I think that's been a large a guiding principle for Maya is just believing in the big picture and not sweating some of the details that can really drag us down when it comes to organizational ego
• 44:26
  Jonathan McCoy: Well, it just uses from this conversation I will say you have lifted our spirits and the goodness that you're putting into the world and sharing with the community is just really admirable and just have so much enjoyed this Travis would you kind of point our listeners to how we can find you online and you're right Travis hides behind like you can't even find his it's hard to find Travis so Travis tell us how people can find you.
• 44:49
  Travis Ning: You can find the organization is MAIAimpact.org and that's m ay ay ay ay ay impact dot o RG and Maya just to be clear is one of the brightest stars in the night sky which we really feel that that embodies what up girl pioneer should be and is. And then on Facebook is my impact samen Instagram Maya underscore impact.
• 45:12
  Jonathan McCoy: Would you also tell us about how people can get involved with the idea because I just think it's phenomenal.
• 45:19
  Travis Ning: It's the awareness support calm, very much a beta version of a website where it's just meant to be more of a conversation starter and stuff and not a one stop here. So here it all is but hopefully providing an incentive. Continue to work in progress, just different tools, frameworks that can achieve those three steps that I mentioned previously. But it's there's a lot out there.
• 45:41
  Travis Ning: And I would love to list if anyone has any other great websites to my contact information is on that the awareness board website to let me know if I can upload and put anything else out there. There's a lot going on in this sphere right now. And I'm certainly not the only one doing it. But there's some folks that have done some amazing work and if anyone has anything, we send it my way to
• 46:01
  Jonathan McCoy: absolutely get new fans in Oklahoma.
• 46:04
  Becky Endicott: We're gonna build believers from all over the world from my thank you for what you're doing. Well, thank you for having me. It's been a real joy.
• 46:13
  Jonathan McCoy: Thanks so much for listening to today's conversation with Travis. I hope you feel motivated by my as mission and Travis's wisdom. I hope you hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. That's why I'd love for you to join our good community. It's our own social network like an after party for every episode, a place to meet new friends find inspiration and help when you feel stuck. Sign up today at we're for good calm slash Hello.
• 46:36
  Jonathan McCoy: One more thing. If you love what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and Your support helps more people find and join this community. Thanks so much friends. Our production here is our resident world traveling humanitarian Julie Confer Hello and our theme song is sunray by Remy boys boom