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Talking Tycoons: Tom Cousins & Jacob Chetrit · The Promote Podcast

• Will Krasne (00:00) If I had 500,000 in liquid cash in my bank account when I croaked, what do you think is a reasonable sum for my real estate portfolio to be worth? Hiten Samtani (00:09) This sounds like a trick question. I'm gonna go wild. I'm gonna go really high and say 25 million bucks. Wait, what? That's not enough? 50 million? Will Krasne (00:15) No. How about $800 million? Hiten Samtani (00:26) Welcome back to the Promote Podcast, your insider guide to the money and mania of the CRA markets. I'm Hatem Simtani. Will Krasne (00:32) I'm Will Krasne and I enjoyed saying that part last week. Hiten Samtani (00:35) Will is really fond of saying the following, every real estate guy has a lot less cash than you think, it's like one of his pet lions. Yeah. And man, we have the wildest illustration of that maxim in Jacob Chetrit His estate's causing a lot of drama amongst his creditors. We then chop it up on BXP's decision to go vertical in Manhattan, on the latest single-malt office building. And why they may not be feeling as nervous as you might think. Finally, another day, another Capital G great man passes. Tom Cousins was the king of Atlanta. and a proper amount in full. Let's get into it. Will Krasne (01:06) Saddlebags Hiten Samtani (01:11) Jacob Chetrit passed a few months ago. One of the girthy lads, one of the brothers Chetrit. And we've talked a ton here about Joseph and Meyer and all the shenanigans that they've been up to. But this was one of the four brothers. Apparently he was like the quiet force. I believe he was the eldest one, very well respected. The reason we're talking about him today is there was a document called, it ended up in probate court. I don't know how much you know about probate. Will Krasne (01:38) Not a ton, which is probably a good thing. Hiten Samtani (01:40) That is good. Yes, you're still alive and kicking. But the reason we know about this document is it was filed as an exhibit in a lawsuit brought by one of his lenders, Richard Mack. Will Krasne (01:49) By the way, can I just say Richard Mack in the headshots they're using in the real deal? Looking very dapper. Like, good for Richard Mack. Hiten Samtani (01:58) So this document surfaces and God, is that where you got that? Jacob's retreat was worth $850 million. Will Krasne (02:06) He was worth $850 million and $500,000. Let's not forget the $500,000. You forgot the most important part. Hiten Samtani (02:13) How do you get comfortable with that kind of ratio? Will Krasne (02:16) comfortable with it. Buddy, have you known me for the last two years? mean, good Lord, I had a lower ratio than this until like two weeks ago. And it's I'm still not that far above it. Off the top. Let's just say we know that there are some shenanigans here that they're probably, you know, paying stuff that they need to pay to try to like bring down the value of the estate. ⁓ Yeah, it's stunning. And Hiten Samtani (02:35) That's almost preamble ⁓ Will Krasne (02:42) You know, again, that's all the cash he has in his name. Like how much cash is there sluicing? Good word alert nerds sluicing around the Chitri web of LLCs that control everything. I mean, who knows? Maybe they sold off another property that then another lender and tried to repatriate the cash. You never know. ⁓ but these guys, but it's true. Like real estate, it's so capital intensive. If you really live financing event to financing event. You can find yourself when the capital markets are closed as they have been for two to three years for the most part in a bit of a pickle. Hiten Samtani (03:19) I think of them as kind of the merchant class, the merchant princes, right? They're all about the trade. They're about one deal to the other, et cetera. And even the innocuous sounding phrase to describe this portfolio is incredible in the surrogate court document. just says various partnership interests. That's all. Will Krasne (03:36) I mean, that's basically what it is. Like there's no organization. It's just this loosely functioning web of LLCs. I think that is the backbone of the Promote Cinematic Universe, which is how real estate is shifted from these cowboys, the merchant princes, men with deep pockets to the suits. There's a reason. It's because if you get to this scale, you need a real balance sheet. You need a real org chart. You need real infrastructure. Hiten Samtani (03:51) men with deep pockets. Will Krasne (04:04) And not to say that the two treats didn't have any of that, but... Hiten Samtani (04:07) But they had less of it than others. Will Krasne (04:10) pretty clearly they had less financial control than someone some other firms might have had. Hiten Samtani (04:15) And we should preface this though, a month or so ago, Meyer Chetrit signed a confession of judgment, which was about $22 million that he said that he owed to the estate of Jacob Chetrit. Now this came up, it was very spicy when it came up. Is there a drama between the brother and his late brother's family? However, according to the lenders who are pursuing the Chetrit's for various sums of money over various deals, this was a ploy. This was just basically a way to get out of paying them. Will Krasne (04:47) I there's probably something to that. mean, it sort of seems like someone I think are good friends, some hotel guy brought it up on Twitter. They're like, is Meyer just the schnook and all this? Hiten Samtani (04:57) He's so buried under PG's, it's a little scary. Will Krasne (05:00) But how is it just him? Like, how are they set up? Like, does anybody know? And the guy died. We're not trying to speak ill of him. But again, like, there's good timing. Pretty sneaky death. And you can hide these things away and be like, yeah, I loaned him like he loaned me money. Now the states forgiving it. Yeah. Because now there's all these different tax consequences. Hiten Samtani (05:23) estate has first dibs on this money which means lender I'm sorry I don't have to you know I don't have enough to pay you yeah we should say that the lenders have obviously taken issue with this and what they're arguing is the following they said this confession is very curiously timed a it was signed just weeks after a favorable court hearing for the lenders B both the probate petition and the confession of judgment were filed on the exact same day which the lender characterized as truly remarkable given that Jacob had died Will Krasne (05:29) Exactly. Hiten Samtani (05:52) six months earlier. Will Krasne (05:54) I mean, those things take as long as they take, Tern. Hiten Samtani (05:56) And then they also said like, this is just some family self-dealing shenanigans and it's designed to basically place Myers assets behind a priority shield. Will Krasne (06:06) deep NBA cut but Marcus and Markeith Morris twins apparently used to share a bank account even though they had different ⁓ contracts. Did you just wonder I mean how with this sort of web of everything and like Meyer was the guarantor on the large multi-family property or portfolio that we talked about. Hiten Samtani (06:24) The Tyler Ross one, the giant one, with JP Morgan getting involved in the fight. We've talked extensively about personal guarantees and bad boy carve outs and all of that stuff, carry guarantees, et cetera. ⁓ It's come up in the case of Tides Equities as well, multi-family syndicator, where Sean Key is being sued in one case, Ryan's being sued in another, and then the entity is being sued all over the place. So we're seeing quite a bit of this happen with the Chautreats. What I find interesting here, and also rhymes with the whole lenders versus syndicators storyline is that one lender filed so maverick Will Krasne (06:59) the very aggressive. Hiten Samtani (07:02) Very aggressive. David Averham and Ted Martell, they filed and successfully won a TRO against Meyer to treat over the same confession in another case in which they claim that Meyer was trying to do the same thing with their debt. Right? And so Richard Mack is essentially just emulating that lawsuit. You're going to see Lender say, this worked. I'm going to go and do the same thing. Will Krasne (07:23) As we've talked about the same net worth and the same liquidity can be pledged on a whole lot of different loans. so sometimes whoever can have the fastest reaction of lights out and make it into turn one can be the one who collects judgment. Hiten Samtani (07:35) Go on, go! And I guess it's going to be open season for the lawyers, right? mean, you just basically just copycat the next case and keep doing it. Will Krasne (07:50) treats are going to try to say we don't have any cash like you can't like we fire sale everything it's going to materially damage your collection so give us time to work everything out and like maybe they cut rates a bunch of times and like we kind of get saved. Hiten Samtani (08:01) I just want to know how they came up with this $800 million number. Yeah, they own a shit ton of real estate, but why didn't they go smaller? Will Krasne (08:08) They probably have net worth covenants and a bunch of their other loans and they had to have a certain level. The difference between a shlemiel and a shlemazel. The shmiel is the guy who spills the soup and the shlemazel is the guy who spills it on. ⁓ So in this case, mean, is Meir the shlemiel or the shlemazel? Hiten Samtani (08:26) I guess we'll find out in court. We're generally not in the business of lionizing dead men. We're not, we're really not, but it's just been that kind of month. We spoke of Don Sofer, now we have someone whose career in life is even potentially even more interesting. We're talking about Tom G. Cousins of Atlanta, a great man. Absolute man in full. Where do we begin with this guy? mean, like, should we put on a white suit and head to turpentine? ⁓ Will Krasne (08:51) Man in full. Absolutely, let's get on our plane and like watch a horse mate. So Tom Cousins, who just died, founder of Cousins Properties in Atlanta, he was, is widely considered to largely be the basis for the character Charlie Croker, the main character in Tom Wolfe's The Man in Full. When you say someone's a movie character or a book character, like this guy actually was. And we, again, we mentioned it in our first story, but it's truly the end of an era when guys like this who, and this era has been over for a little while. Hiten Samtani (09:27) Yeah, I he was 93 when he passed. ⁓ Will Krasne (09:29) This story of Cousin's properties though I think is a really illustrious story of commercial real estate over the last half century. Hiten Samtani (09:37) wasn't today's kind of like a Sunbelt boring. Will Krasne (09:39) Yeah, they own an office in like Nashville and Atlanta and like Texas. Hiten Samtani (09:44) just like IRR risk adjusted returns type. ⁓ Will Krasne (09:46) or $4.5 billion market cap, it's well respected. It is what it is. Hiten Samtani (09:51) 21 million square feet. And you can see the air kind of coming out of our voices. It's not like it's not a successful company it is, but our man Tom Cousins was a proper developer, like a buccaneer developer. Will Krasne (10:05) these guys who post World War II are saying, I'm going to go build a bunch of tract homes with no money and sell them for $12,000. And on the back of that build these massive empires and the appetite for risk, the just chutzpah, did I pronounce that correctly? Hiten Samtani (10:25) M'chotts va, m'chotts va bertsokken. Will Krasne (10:28) really just the entrepreneurial spirit. He shaped the skyline of a major American city and sort of created it into a major American city. Hiten Samtani (10:38) He did so much. And not only did he develop his own stuff. he built what later was known as the Bank of America Plaza, which outside of New York and Chicago was the tallest building in the country at the time. He developed CNN tower, Omni Hotel, an incredible array of properties, but he also set the stage for the modern skyline of Atlanta because of what he did in the Gulch and other neighborhoods as well, where he, basically set the stage for now what CIM is doing with, with the wrestler, what is it? Centennial yards. Will Krasne (11:08) But more so than that, I mean, you talk about people who can create a city out of whole cloth, not just the buildings, because people can build the buildings. But when people talk about Atlanta in the 80s or the 90s, like what they were talking about was the spirit of guys like Tom Cousins. But I knew one thing I wanted to I wanted to make money. Totally. And the guy even had an arch nemesis. mean, had Salieri. Hiten Samtani (11:32) I'm so jealous. told you I think a couple days ago. I'm like, I wish I had a nemesis John C Portman jr. Was was basically neck-and-neck with Tom Cousins He developed the Weston Peachtree Plaza Peachtree Center America's Mart truest Plaza a bunch of things and these guys were like number one and number two shifting positions constantly Joking for political influence jockeying to build the biggest baddest building in the Will Krasne (11:56) I mean in Tom, you know bought the Atlanta Hawks brought them to Atlanta. I Have no idea who that Calgary, please They're in Atlanta. Yeah. Yeah. My wife's Canadian. I should know that Hiten Samtani (12:00) and the flames whoever they are. I believe so. Really? How much do know about super stations? Will Krasne (12:11) TBS, the Superstation, yeah. Hiten Samtani (12:14) Yeah, so Ted Turner came to our man Cousins and asked him for a sum of money, which he then went and bought the first Superstation and is essentially the seat of the media moguldom that Ted Turner created. Will Krasne (12:26) When you talk about like these types of guys, like, man, it's just, there's like a romance to it because everyone knows like, if you're an entrepreneur and like, need a rich guy and you're like, I'm going to Tom Cousins, you know, or if you were in New York and you're like, I need a rich guy and you're like, I'm going to Nelson Rockefeller. Like it's like one of those things. It's even better here though, cause Tom Cousins made it with his bare hands. Hiten Samtani (12:49) I don't know this for a fact, but I can picture like the multiple waiting rooms outside Tom's office. You know, you see secretary one and then secretary two, and then you see a man with his feet on the table and says, yeah, son, what can I do you for? Yeah. That kind of thing. could see. Will Krasne (13:02) Totally and the stories that come out of this guy first of all like he generated unbelievable returns like one cousins was a public company and he was running it it was shot the lights out which is number one he made himself a ton of money he made a lot of people a ton of money and you can't you know throw a rock in Atlanta without hitting some Developer who spun out of there who was affiliated with him who made a bunch of money and then the stories are just because he's the type of guy who Folks who weren't even born when he was in his heyday or like telling cousin stories on Twitter when he dies And one that was my favorite, I Perry Solomon said it where they're talking about he's building a new spec tower. Hiten Samtani (13:35) Yeah. And he expects the law firm, like his law firm... Will Krasne (13:41) Yeah, he calls his law firm that does all the legal work and he goes, I want my law firm to do it to take half the space in my new building. Like, well, Tom, we're really happy with where we are. And he his law firm. Hiten Samtani (13:55) You know, you don't cross a man like that. And there's another one. I think he was a pilot. He would like dart in and out of his sights, like Maverick style. And then just to bring it all home, I mean, he sold what became CNN Center to Ted Turner. He fronted Ted Turner the money in the beginning, but that's not all. There was an 8,800 acre quail hunting ranch that he eventually sold to Ted Turner as well. And that's kind of the Charlie Kroger bit, right? Will Krasne (14:03) Buzz the tab. Yeah, I mean that's the basis for turpentine which if you haven't read the novel he basically takes one of his lenders out to try to convince him to Extend him some credit and it goes poor Hiten Samtani (14:33) Like a lot of major, major players at his time, he was kind of at the nexus of money and power and politics. If you wanted to run for mayor in Atlanta, you have to go see Tom Cousins. If you want to be governor, you got to see Tom Cousins, right? Like any conversation at any high office had to start at his office. Will Krasne (14:49) Yeah, you want to buy a company like you got to go to Tom Cousins. I mean, he was like, there are guys like this in almost every city in the 80s and the 90s. mean, you know, I think one of most famous stories. Hiten Samtani (14:59) trying to go around Tom Cousins on a big deal of any kind where you think he has nothing to do with it. Will Krasne (15:04) It's like ⁓ the Howard Schultz story that's when he was trying to buy Starbucks and one his investors went around and Bill Gates seniors like walked into the guy's office and was like, you're going to leave him alone. Like that's like the Tom Cousins shit. Like that's the same thing. And I think he hit the nail on the head. The nexus of power, money, politics in all these cities, real estate is always the nexus. And we used to have these guys who were the great men who would, who you would go see and it's You know, real estate is a commodity asset class. It's on the backs of all the pension funds, all the sovereign wealth funds, all the people who need to eke out a little 8 % return and make their widgets. And that's great. It's created a lot of wealth. It's built a whole industry. But let's pour something out because at the end of the day, what we all fell in love with is you stare at a huge building in the middle of downtown Atlanta and you think some crazy guy with no money made that happen with his bare hands and with his pure entrepreneurial spirit. Hiten Samtani (16:09) This level of power and influence concentrated in one man does not happen in New York City. It just doesn't. It's not a thing. It doesn't exist. so Tom Cousins is a product of Atlanta. He could have only existed in a place like Atlanta and he shaped the city as much as it did him. But I do think we should talk about what he did with the East Lake Golf Club and kind of the community redevelopment thing. Cause that became quite a major prototype for rehabbing, know, rough communities across the country. And he did that in partnership with a couple of famous guys. Will Krasne (16:42) With the buff dog himself and the tiger Hiten Samtani (16:44) buff dog and the tiger. was Julian Robertson and Warren Buffett. He partnered with them on something called purpose-built communities. And it became kind of a national model for how to tackle rough neighborhoods and how to rejuvenate and revitalize them. it wasn't just the skyscrapers. This was also another part of his legacy. That's important. Will Krasne (17:04) Yeah, and I think it speaks to the power of the man that the two guys who he got in there are probably much more well known on a national level than he was, but they came to him. Hiten Samtani (17:14) Did you see the you see the buff dogs quote? He said in 94 years I've met a lot of admirable people and not so admirable people and I would put Tom Cousins at the top of any list of people I admire. Will Krasne (17:16) Tell us what you said. as at all. So we talked about one of the capital G great men. Now let's talk about one of the capital G great companies, Boston Properties. Hiten Samtani (17:41) BXP, a former Mord Zuckerman production. The company now known as BXP and run by MSRE Mafia, Owen Thomas, doing something interesting. They've had very mixed results with their journeys into spec office development. If you remember 250 West 55th Street. Will Krasne (17:59) They're famous because they were only in like five markets because they said it's going to be impossible to develop in any of them and so we're going to be the guys who incur all the brain damage. Hiten Samtani (18:08) I went to Rest In Town Center and that's basically, it's just, they own that place. ⁓ Will Krasne (18:12) And they are specialized in urban office development and they are doing this one through 43 Madison on spec. So what does that mean? Hiten Samtani (18:24) So spec means you don't have an anchor tenant in place, means everything's a lot more uncertain. So they had the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund, which I believe is pronounced. Will Krasne (18:29) they had an equity partner. Norges famously owns like 2 % of every stock in the world. Hiten Samtani (18:38) Absolutely insane. mean, the guy who runs it has a very bad podcast, but he's able to get every single player on there because they all take money from Nikolai Tangent. Yeah. Nikolai runs the real estate arm of the sovereign wealth fund. used to be the world's biggest sovereign wealth fund. think Abu Dhabi has now taken that mantle, but anyway, they've got a lot of money. They are the backers of a lot of major, major projects across the U S and Will Krasne (18:47) ⁓ Have us on Nick. Nick. I have a song Hiten Samtani (19:07) had a big concentration in New York and they came in here for about 44 million bucks all in. This is all pre-development, right? And this is a complicated one. So how much do know about kind of the way this is structured? It's a ground lease with the MTA and all that. Will Krasne (19:20) Yeah, I mean, another thing like we're developing in the city with the city, whether you like it or not. But in this case, there really are like related to it with the MTA as well at Hudson Yards, as we talked about last week. this was it's been a long pre-development process. Norges is now getting bought out. Hiten Samtani (19:38) Basically what happened was BXP had to make a decision by end of July and they had to decide whether to pull the trigger on this thing or kind of revert to what it was. And they decided to go ahead, but Norges said, you know what, we're going to wish you well from the sidelines. And so they had a pretty amicable separation agreement. mean, BXP basically is recouping Norges' costs so far. Will Krasne (19:59) Yeah. And you might think, well, wow, office New York, like seems like that's a tough, tough business. This is actually a fantastic deal for Boston properties because there is not a lot of new office getting built. Not a lot of Madison Avenue, not a lot being built by guys who are this good at it. So if. Hiten Samtani (20:17) And everyone looks at headlines about off. Harry Sitomer from SL Green just said, when you go to TMZ now, they talk about the office market being in the toilet. However, there is a metric that basically puts all this in context. Yeah, net absorption. So net absorption in Manhattan ⁓ as of Q2 was at 5.2 million square feet, which is the highest level in a quarter century. Will Krasne (20:32) Yeah, it's the net absorption. That's a lot of square feet. Hiten Samtani (20:45) That really says something. mean, basically the office market for the right tenants in the right buildings is more than back. However, there isn't very much new supply. So people who have the buildings can make them work. Will Krasne (20:58) I mean, we're basically making offices malls again. Hiten Samtani (21:02) What? Say more. Will Krasne (21:03) So malls were the same thing. Everyone in the early 2010s, was death of retail. You can't own a mall. No one's ever going to want to go to the mall and people are going to get groceries delivered. They're going to get their haircuts delivered. A dying institution. just is. That's not true. We were just very over mauled. Yeah. And we had way more retail square footage per person than almost any developed country in the world. And what we found is like the best malls are Hiten Samtani (21:17) stores saying. Will Krasne (21:33) as good or better than they've ever been. Hiten Samtani (21:35) Look at the CMBS market for those malls. Absolutely right. Will Krasne (21:37) Yeah, they're incredibly tight. They trade at very tight cap rates. You can get massive amounts of debt against them What's getting killed though are the crappy malls? And so the same thing's happening with office is that all the bad stuff, you know the mid block Hiten Samtani (21:51) The bottom's falling out on it. Yeah, there's no way you can salvage it. It's being bought for pennies on the dollar. Will Krasne (21:57) Yeah, by NAMDAR. NAMDAR bought all the bad malls. They're buying all the bad office. They... True. know, so that stuff also is getting converted. So, square footage is leaving, which also helps your net absorption. And so, what this means is that people need new office. You know, office ages worse almost than like any other asset class. It's hugely capital intensive, tenant improvements, leasing commissions, capex, just absolutely nuke your free cash flow. And what happens is that they age and... A lot of times if you're a very in demand tenant, can hot potato and find a lot of, can get, people will beg you. Hiten Samtani (22:34) play musical chairs just like 15 Central Park West into Will Krasne (22:37) Yeah, you can get two years free rent, $150 for TI build out. And these new buildings are, know, especially in a post COVID world, like they are amenitized to the nines, they have better circulation. Hiten Samtani (22:53) Yeah, they're usually expensive. is slating $2,100 a foot to build this thing. Will Krasne (22:58) That is crazy talk. That was what like condos were selling in the West Village like five years ago. And so you might think, why are they gonna spec 2100 a foot to build a office? It might not be. Hiten Samtani (23:08) Is it spec though? They're talking about having an LOI with an unnamed financial institution for just under a third of the space. This is a million square foot, just under a million square foot tower. And they're saying that they have a tentative deal or an LOI in place with an unnamed financial institution. Now we've been told that Bank of America, which is currently at what is it? One Brian Park? Brian Park. Yes, One Brian Park, which it co-owns with the Durst organization. Will Krasne (23:34) area. Hiten Samtani (23:38) they're potentially interested here and might be in the mix. Will Krasne (23:42) And there goes your spec. Hiten Samtani (23:44) There goes your spec. And it's unclear if the LOI, the 30 % mentioned is basically alluding to B of A or if B of A has a separate LOI in place or a separate negotiation going on with BXP. But if B of A came, think of that quarter. We talked a couple of weeks ago about JP Morgan's empire building, Madison Avenue, 383, 390, et cetera, the Roosevelt hotel. If B of A comes over, this is going to be like mega bank. Will Krasne (24:12) I mean is there other market caps like 1 7th the size so they get 1 7th the campus is that about it. Hiten Samtani (24:18) Let's see what happens, but BXP slated to deliver this thing in like late 2029, which probably aligns nicely because B of A is at the Durst building for at least till 2031, 2033, somewhere. Will Krasne (24:32) Yeah, so close enough for government work. Hiten Samtani (24:34) How's this all gonna go down? mean, are they gonna try to find a new equity partner or do they not need one if they get this kind of anchor tent? Will Krasne (24:41) I mean, it depends. It's something that's very interesting about the office REITs because, you you look at a Vornada versus Related, who we talked about two weeks ago, you know, they were not in dissimilar places, I would say, maybe 25 years ago. And Related went one path, Vornada went another. And owning these things outright with no partners is really hard. It is hugely capital intensive. If you're doing a lot of development, the public markets don't necessarily love that. Yeah. And you don't have OPMs, you don't have any of the... have any of those sweet sweet fees in there and you can't really de-risk it. So BXP by bringing in Norges and obviously Norges is leaving but if you have other equity partners coming in, it lowers the risk to your balance sheet, helps you generate fees and makes it a little bit more feasible for the public markets to recognize the value. Makes it more, yeah exactly, they can capitalize that fee stream. Hiten Samtani (25:31) and more feasible. Will Krasne (25:36) versus saying like, you're going to hit whatever is going to be how many bucks of FFO in six years? know, we. Hiten Samtani (25:43) should probably have more spec towers in, right, given these net absorption stats, like, who else is thinking of going vertical right now? I would imagine we need more based on what's Will Krasne (25:52) I'm down at World Trade Center. I've been talking about that last tower for eons. ⁓ Hiten Samtani (25:55) Larry has been trying to get that built for what 20 plus years now. there was talk about Amex coming in. Rupert Murdoch obviously left them at the altar. I don't know. He's been trying his whole life to get that built. Will Krasne (26:09) building a spec office tower is something one of the capital G great men would do and we're seeing BXP do it now but it may not be so spec. Hiten Samtani (26:18) That's it for the Promote Podcast this week. Tom Cousins, a man in full, a true character of characters, one of those developers that Minstrel sing about and we sing about as well. Will Krasne (26:28) And we bemoan the fact that his namesake company is a boring $4 billion office read. Hiten Samtani (26:33) Jacob Chatrete passes and leaves behind a $500,000 bank account and $800 million in a very highly disputed fortune. And finally, BXP is going vertical in Manhattan, trying to see if they can make the spec game work this time. Will Krasne (26:47) I think I'd be a little bit more circumspec about that. Hiten Samtani (26:51) We'll be back next week with more CRE Insider goodness. Will Krasne (26:56) Please like, share, subscribe, use those scraping tools to constantly ping the algorithm saying you like us. You know, we love doing the show. Real estate is the gift that keeps on giving. It really is. Hiten Samtani (27:08) And if you like what you're hearing and want to get in front of our audience hit us up at partnerships at the promote comm that's partnerships at the promote comm for advertising Will Krasne (27:15) and our medium listener actually has more cash than Jacob's retreat. So advertisers, get on it. Hiten Samtani (27:21) That I can guarantee. Will, that was so much fun. Thank you. Will Krasne (27:24) Thank you. Hiten Samtani (27:27) Ciao!