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The Conversation You Keep Avoiding · The Worship and Leadership Podcast

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on, everyone, and welcome to the Worship and Leadership Podcast.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Elmer Cagnas Jr.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm here with my friend Willie C.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Simpson Jr.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: What is up, Elmer?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: How you doing, man?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: I could be better.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: You could be better.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I could be better.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's allergy season or just a bunch of you know stuff messing with me, but could be better, but I'm not I'm not at home in bed.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: So praise the Lord.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Praise the Lord.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Praise the Lord.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's somebody in bed right now.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're listening, we're praying for you.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Hope you feel better.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're we're talking.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: Unless you just took the day off and you're in bed in that case.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, enjoy it.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy it.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy it.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: When's the last time you did that?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's been a while, man.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like took the day off and just stayed in bed.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: Oh man.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: I can't remember the last time I did that.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I've I've actually ever done that.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Just took it off and just stayed in bed.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Other than being sick and being in bed.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Might not be a bad idea.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: We might need to do that.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think we do.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, have a great time.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's been an awesome podcast episode.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're just starting.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're having today we're having the hard conversation, so we're going to talk about that.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hard conversations without losing people.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I wrote this down.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: The conversation you're avoiding is already costing you.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're just paying in a currency you haven't counted yet.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's good.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: That is good right there.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: Avoiding this conversation.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: That hard conversation is already costing.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's already costing you something.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: And you're paying in a currency you haven't even counted yet.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: So what could that currency be?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Relational equity, trust, ministerial fruitfulness, joy, cohesiveness, peace.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: Man.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that is from other people.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of times you think you want to preserve the relationship.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so you hold off on the conversation.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: But people are watching what we do and they're they're they're observing all of our decisions.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that includes parents.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like our kids are watching.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we have to have the hard conversations.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if we don't, our kids will resent the fact that we didn't have the hard conversation with the teacher or someone that did something to them.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's people around us that are watching and observing how we're storeding the relationships and the leadership and the things that we've been asked to stored well.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's true.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I I had a thought before we kind of press forward.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: And he said that a lot of conflict or tension in relationships can be traced back to the desire to be understood instead of desiring to understand.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I just thought that was so powerful when he when he's when Adam was sharing that with me.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: I thought, man, I never really thought about that.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you think about, I mean, I because I think it's just human nature where when we're in conflict, we, you know, we kind of want to put ourselves first.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and we we kind of want to make the win is that, hey, you know where I'm coming from, and that you shift and you come alongside me, as opposed to making the win about really reconciliation and and saying, hey, where can I humble myself and seek to understand your position and seek where you're coming from?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it speaks to kingdom the kingdom mindset that we we are called to be servants.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times in our culture, in this in this society today, Western culture predominantly, it's about very self-serving.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so everything from our subscriptions to how we order our food to you know what we watch on television, how we interact with people through social media, through technology, in person, it all has to fit my schedule.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: It has to fit, it has to be convenient.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so even when it goes to work, we we pick work based on what fits our lifestyle.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you think of other countries where they work to live, you know?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so like they don't, they're not choosing what they're gonna do.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're out plowing the fields, they're out, you know, with the cattle, they're out doing the things so that they're they can live and they can survive and they their family can have what they need because they're supplying.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: But in our context, in our culture, Western culture, it's it's a lot of times we get to pick to do what we want to do.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and so then it translates into our relationships, not just with people, but even our relationship with God, to where, hey God, I love you.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I love I I love all the songs I sing about you, but this is gonna be on my terms.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and then we try to make it about us.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: You think about church, the church setting, and as a worship leader, you're you're on platform, you're watching people walk in.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I always talk about it, the people with the coffee cups.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: I understand y'all need coffee.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's why I don't like coffee.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because of just what you know, watching people just sitting there like drinking their latte while like you're just pouring your heart out before the Lord.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's like this sacred moment, this reverent moment where you're in the presence of God as a congregation, just pouring yourself out and just Yep, they're just sitting their hands in their pockets, you know, and so and again, I'm not accusing them of anything, that's their relationship with the Lord, but it's it's it's so okay in our culture, yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's so okay in our churches, and then so then it it translates think about relationships.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, I I got I got drama with my wife, I got drama with my best friend, I'll deal with it later, you know, and it there's no no you know urgency to to make amends and to to protect and to you know, I don't know, just yeah, I don't know.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and so our our society has culture, our culture does to that.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, I and you're right.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: I what I hear you saying is like we're you know, there's just there's a strong element of individualism, and so we just say, well, I don't, you know, that doesn't personally affect me.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I you know, I hey I'm doing good, so I don't feel like I need to address this or have this hard conversation or or figure out a way to to help ameliorate this conflict.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: That it's it's not it's not impacting me.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm happy, go lucky, I'm doing great, I'm happy as a cloud, and like you said, not realizing what you're losing and what you're actually allowing to just become further damaged by not addressing it.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: So, so talking through the framework, because conflict resolution is, I would say, and I think you would agree with this, Elmer, it not just in our line of work as far as vocation, I think generally speaking, conflict resolution is one of the most sought-after tools from a soft skill standpoint.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think most of us just struggle with conflict resolution because conflict resolution involves communication, and that's always a number one issue, like in relationships, right?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: You and I do, you know, pastoral care with couples and stuff, and it's something centered on communication.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: So talking through this, like if you have to have a hard conversation, if there's something that you know needs to be addressed, you know, on your team, let's talk through this framework.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so the first thing here is to prepare your heart.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's to is to check your motive.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think it, you know, again, it's Romans 12, 3.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: Don't think more of yourself than you are, but hey, do an honest assessment of yourself.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: Just start with this self-examination.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's you know what David says in Psalm 139 at the bottom of that chapter, Lord, search me, test my anxious thoughts, see if there's anything grievous in me.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I and and you know, honestly, I think a lot of the times the reason why these hard conversations go sideways, like you use the word accused, is because we come in and we're inflammatory and we're accusatory and we're condemnatory, and now the person that got sent into our lives to shepherd, they're backing away.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because we end up unintentionally beating the sheep instead of leading the sheep.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And leading, leading is an important word because at the end of the day, we're accountable.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like we as pastors, we will be held accountable.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: As parents, we will be accountable for how we led our children.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's important that we prepare our hearts, number one, because you don't want to go into something just upset, yeah, like or or already having passed judgment on a person.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's the conversation is not, hey, I've already made my decision and this is what I think about you.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, the the conversation, the hard conversation is you're going into it with with the right heart, addressing the issue that needs to be addressed, and and trying not to steer away from that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, in in the attempt to save face, because we love people, and again, we're talking about conversations with people you love at work or at home or in your friendships or ministry.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because you love people, it's hard to have these conversations because you don't want to offend them, you don't want to push them away.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Again, in our culture, it's like I'll just go to another church, I'll just do something different, I'll go join another team.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, we we we have an off-ramp so we don't have to see your face anymore, type thing, you know, instead of just all right, we're gonna figure this out because we gotta exist to make this happen.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's very uh prevalent in our culture, yeah.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: But but you have to prepare your heart and then address the issue.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times as leaders, we'll we'll we'll sandwich, like, you know, the sandwich.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: A compliment sandwich.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, where it's like, hey, you know, oh, you're great.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you did amazing, this and that.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just want to talk to you about something like you really suck at this, but oh, I love your shoes, isn't it?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then and we we so then the person that we're talking to, like, so what are you talking to me about?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's like you are you you're being nice, but now you offended me, but then you're still being nice to me.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're not doing anyone a favor by not addressing the issue at hand.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's why it's called the hard conversation.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not how do I get around the hard conversation, it's good, right?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so address it.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Just just address it.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the more it happens as a leader, it doesn't get easier, but you realize the importance of it.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because the longer you wait, it's gonna cost you a lot more, and it's gonna actually cost the person that you're you're holding off from having the conversation with.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna cost them as well.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you're not going back to the word you use, you're not leading the person, you're not leading the situation well if you don't address it immediately.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: Come on, man.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good word there.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Pastor Elmer.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: What's your name?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: Adobada Cañas Jr.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's good.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: What's your middle name?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: Adobo?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Abdala.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Abdala.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: He said Adobo.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Adobo, I was close.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: That was good.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: Thirdly, you want to protect the relationship.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I I think again that's so key because when we're talking about having hard conversations, it's already uncomfortable, and the enemy already wants to start to stir up and cause divisiveness and and to cause bad feelings, and he wants to disrupt that that unity and that harmony that you're really seeking to maintain.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: So you want to protect the relationship.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: So, what does that mean?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: It means first and foremost, being clear with saying, hey, I want to have this hard conversation because I love you and I want our I want I want what's best for you.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like I see greatness in you.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, you're you're you are a leader, and part of being a leader means receiving feedback.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so, hey, I'm doing this because honestly, I mean I feel like it, but I honestly want to protect you, I want to protect your character, your witness, your reputation.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so that that's why I'm bringing this up.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think when you start there, in terms of like, hey, this is why we're meeting.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, this is the issue we're meeting about, but here's why we're meeting about this issue.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because sometimes having hard conversations, you can sound like you're you're being preferential and you were you really want to be redemptive.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: What do I mean by that?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say somebody does have a character flaw, like they are, they're they're they're just a liar, like they just lie.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: Then when you address that issue, sure, nobody wants to be lied to, but you can you if you approach it from the vantage point of protecting them and helping them, now that becomes, first of all, becomes more expansive, universal.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: You're essentially saying, hey, listen, man, no matter where the Lord leads you, this isn't this is a trait that that doesn't need to be a part of your character.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: Does that make sense?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: So it's not just like here at our organization or here on our team.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: Number one, that displeases and dishonors God because he didn't give you that mouth to tell lies.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: But number two, that doesn't help you.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like what happens is you you develop a reputation of being untrustworthy and unreliable.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't want that for you, period, in you know, in in general.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and what's gonna happen a lot of times, especially if you're a leader of an organization, if this is an employee that you're speaking to at work, because you're a supervisor, they're gonna they're gonna see it that you're addressing the matter from the perspective of the company or the organization or the church, because you're trying to protect brand.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And but you know, that's why there's policies in workplaces.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of time HR will will meet with people and say, hey, like these are our policies.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're you've outside the boundaries.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, you represent our organization, so you this is the standards, this is what you agreed to when you came on team, and so you know, but and and that's it's crazy because a lot of people are willing to have that hard conversation and they're okay with being addressed by HR in a secular environment.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: When they're they're outside of the parameters of hey, this is how we we've we've asked you to represent our brand.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like hey, okay, I appreciate the feedback.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: I won't do it again.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: But then let's bring it to church.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: But then, as pastors, when we have to actually have hard conversations with people, it's not that we're protecting a brand, right?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're protecting your your walk with the Lord.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: We we want we want to lead people to become fully devoted followers of Jesus Christ.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that has nothing to do with the brand, in our case, life point as a church.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: That has to do with the witness, with the witness, with you as a believer and and the impact that you're making, especially if you're a leader or you know, you're you're part of a team.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so we want to lead you to become a fully devoted follower.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So so we're not here to address the there, there are the things like, hey, some things aren't being done right, or like, hey, do this a little better as we're doing training in the different departments and areas.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: But then there's the life situations, the hard issues that we all have to have hard talks.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: For example, in worship, when when we first started the audition process here at Life Point, and when I first got here in 2020, it was people would audition, they'd make the team, and then we would interview them after they made the team, and then at that point they're already on the team.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then there was a lot of things I didn't know about people, and I would find out about their life and lifestyle and decision making, like once they're already on platforms.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: I see.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then I would be later, I'd find out, like, oh yeah, they're probably not living the best way.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I avoided the hard conversation up front because I was trying to fulfill a need.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I I'm like, you know what, we gotta do this the other way around, we gotta switch, it's it's backwards.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so now we have the hard conversation.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like people we audition, and if you make your audition, that's great.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean you're on the team.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And now you have to sit with someone on our team and have a pastoral conversation about how you're living and how's your life.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe you're gifted, but your next step isn't necessarily to serve on a team, yeah, because you're you don't know at the in the moment, like that your life isn't reflecting what we're wanting to highlight on a platform.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's not that we're protecting a brand, it's just that when you put people on a platform, your life is magnified.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, like the problems that you have, they don't get smaller because people see you now.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: It actually gets worse.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and in the sense of that now you're exposed to multiple thousands of people, and and your life becomes even more public than what you thought it was before.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so we're we're very careful to position people in places that will cause harm to them, that can hurt them, break them, uh affect their their lives, their homes.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so the that pastoral conversation is super vital.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I know a lot of churches avoid it.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of churches don't have these conversations with people in the church because they have a great need.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we need people.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a fact.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like churches need people, they're churches are volunteer-ran organizations, yeah.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so we need people to serve, we need people to be a part of things, especially in the skill-based areas like like worship and production.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: But that's where you have to realize, like, you know, like you shouldn't need people that bad that you over you overlook the flaws that they're carrying, yeah, and and where you're not willing to have the hard conversation and pastoring them and leading them into what their true next step is.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, that's a good point.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, going back to earlier that statement you made, Elmer, about the cost that you pay, and you think about the cost that you pay, like I as a leader, I would much rather pay the cost of having you know less than the optimal number of people to do ministry than to pay the cost of bringing someone on who doesn't have heart, who who who does not follow the Lord, who doesn't have great character, who does not align with the with the with the with the mission and the vision and the heart of our pastors, because that cost there, it's way more astronomical and and only that, but you don't get to determine when you're done paying that cost.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: When you have you know not enough people, okay, yeah, they're stressed, but ministry is already stressful.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it it's it's already a a low, okay.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well, man, we get to lean more into the Lord and and into each other, but that's where we actually get to see the grace of God help to supersede the weakness of the flesh.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: But man, there ain't no grace for foolishness.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, God doesn't grace foolishness, and he doesn't grace pride or or urgency, you know, negative.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's really fear-based.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, man, like I can't do this without them.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, really?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: You think you can't do it without them?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: When Jesus said, I will build a church.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I I want to add to what you're saying is that a lot of people in when they come to church in ministry, they they look at pastors and the people that are leading, and they expect the same treatment from us as pastors, the way we're treating non-believers.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: They expect us to treat people that have already given their life to Christ, gotten baptized, taken the next step to follow Christ.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they want to be treated as a non-believer.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so, but the truth is, no, like there's the grace, there's the love, there's the compassion that we have for the people that don't know any better.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And scripture addresses that.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you don't know, you don't know.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: But now that you know, you're gonna be held accountable.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and so then so then for for people to act like, oh, like how dare they talk to me like that.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: It it's not, it's not out of out of any like like malicious like intent.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right, it's because we love the same way we love people that are far from Christ, is the same way we love people that that we're now we're not reaching them in in the sake of like we want them saved.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right, you're saved, you're committed, and now we want to disciple people.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the fact that we want to lead people to become fully devoted and see their discipleship, their formation, it matters.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and so again, that's a hard conversation as well.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, first hard conversation is you need Jesus without Jesus, you're going to hell.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, like it's a hard conversation, and so a lot of people are how do I sugarcoat that?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do I make that?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, live the life that we're called to live as Christians, be an example, be a witness, let people see it in the way that you hold yourself at work, how you how you live.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's one way.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but then once you're saved, keep living that way.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it doesn't change.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like live above reproach and allow your testimony to be the light that God's called you to be, be the salt that we're intended to be in this world.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: Come on, that's so good, man.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that is part of like how you can help to resolve or wrap up a hard conversation.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's just, hey, let's agree on what the next steps are.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like you said, if you're not saved, hey, let's get you saved.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like you need to go on in with Jesus.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: And if a person is saved and you're having a hard conversation with them, and we we've identified the issue, we we we agree that that that this is an issue and it does need to be resolved, it needs to be fixed.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well then what what does that look like?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, hey, let's get you in a small group, or hey, man, I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest a pause on serving for X amount of time, or or man, maybe maybe we shift, or in some cases it's hey, unfortunately, you know, you no longer serve on this team, like whatever it is, but there has to be agreement on what the next step is.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: And the agreement doesn't mean that they like it.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's not what agreement is.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: Agreement is hey, what honors the Lord.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think I think about it in the book of Acts.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: Their Jerusalem council meets because there were some Judaizers that were coming and harassing these newly minted believers who didn't even have a Jewish context.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: And now they're trying to bring the old Jewish law on them.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's you know, talking about circumcision and all of this and fasting and all.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: And they're like, wait a minute, what's going on?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: I thought it was just Jesus.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: I thought, well, that's how we got saved.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: We did where we went we went on in with Jesus.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: I thought that's what we're supposed to do.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: So Peter and company, they meet and then they send a letter.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I love how they how they they said, hey, we understand that there's been some confusion about this.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: So we met, we prayed, and this is what they said.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: They said it seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I that phrase right there is so key.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember having a conversation with with an individual with one of our other pastors, who we just had to have a hard conversation, and we both said we looked at the individual and said, Hey, man, listen, and I took them right to the book.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: I took him to the scriptures, hey, listen, this seems good to us and the Holy Spirit.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: And he's and I love how they end up, they finished about to lay no greater burden on you than this.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that is where you the agreement can be hey, listen, this is not a burden that we're laying on you.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: This is actually relief.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: This is actually unburdening you so that what are we doing?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: We're helping you to stay connected to the vine.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that ultimately that is what it's about.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: So good, right?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like this, these next steps are to unburden you so that you can remember.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus is your source.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like ministry is not your source.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: The accolades, the even the fruitfulness of this ministry is not your source.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus is.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: And this character defect, this errant path is actually hindering you from staying connected to the mind.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's good.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's good.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not easy.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and it's one of the things about ministry.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the things about being a pastor.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a boss, you know, at your job, yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's hard.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's part of leadership.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Leaders lead in the good and the difficult times.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And part of it is addressing the people you're leading.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because who are you leading?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Not a thing, not just an organization is built of people.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, whatever that looks like in your context, people are going to be involved.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: We're messy.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and so you you have to be willing to have the conversations.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe that leaders that are willing to have hard conversations and not avoid them.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and doing doing it with love, because that matters.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Doing it with love, have the hard conversations with love and with the person's best and best, you know, at intent.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like you want them to succeed.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And when they know that, uh, I I also do think that when you have these conversations and people know that you care about them, yeah, and you've shown them up to that point, right?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's hard in every organization because some organizations, HR or the boss, supervisors, they're very distant from certain employees, you know, and so it's hard to really have that relational equity.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're able to have that relational equity with the people that you're leading, invest into it.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you do have these hard conversations, that they understand that the whole time you've always wanted what was best for them with the mission in mind.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so remember that that the people are there to support the mission and the vision of their organization.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're you they're not there, the mission's not there for them alone.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so if in our context, we're not part of Life Point.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: So Life Point could support us and make us become everything we want.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, we're part of Life Point because we've devoted our lives to seeing people become fully devoted.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we're here and we've laid down, we've put things aside in our life and our careers to be part of what God's called Pastor Mike to accomplish here in Clarksville.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And beyond.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and honestly, I think that's what makes the hard conversation easier, pun intended, is when you bring it back to the mission at hand.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things you've taught me, and I was talking with Pastor Dorea about this too, was whenever you have to do hard conversations, you you can be specific and say things like, hey, you said, but we say.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: And what is that?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm pulling it back and making it unifying.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's cultural.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, hey, issue is not just like it's you saying it's it's actually it's what you said is that I'm aligned with culture.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, you did, but this is how we do.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: Again, that's our culture's Jesus.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: So the issue is that didn't feel or sound like Jesus.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: And if it don't look and sound like Jesus, then it's it's fruitless and it's pointless because Jesus is the one on upon whom the church is built.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus is the one who is the author and the giver of life.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus is the one that we actually want to devote our lives pointing people to.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: So obviously, as human beings who are not Jesus, we're not we're imperfect.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: So what was the time, man, that you got this wrong, brother?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: And having a hard conversation.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like you took a grenade and everything.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Multiple times.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: I and and honestly, off the top of my head, it's it's hard.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I I uh something I've learned over the years as as a somebody's direct report, I think, is sometimes you want you want everybody to be on the team, you want them to be on the team forever because you love people.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I love people, I'm very relational, I'm very relational leader.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I always choose to see the best in people, but there comes a time in people's in life and ministry where God's calling them to other things, and I think I've I've I've fought for people that were trying to leave, you know, in different organizations and and and like no, like hey, you should be here, and then with everything in my power, trying to make it more appeasable for them to stay, yeah, and then them staying, and then realizing that oh, this was a bad choice, yeah, because their heart wasn't in it.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so, again, as a leader, I think a lot of times to bring peace, to bring unity, all good things, the intention was great, but I wasn't willing to have the hard conversation and and let somebody walk away.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and I thought I was fixing something, and instead I actually probably made things worse.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so I I've learned over time like everyone has a season, yeah, and I have to be a respecter of that as much as I love people, as much as I want them to be a part of it, and so and it's one of the hardest things.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I struggle with it, and and it's hard when when you sense the Lord starting those shifts and people starting those ships.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's happened in my own life, like you know, it's time to go, it's time to move, it's time to do this and that.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I understand it personally and how it affects our home when those seasons come around, and I understand how it feels when somebody steps off a team, and it's hard.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then having those conversations is really difficult.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: One that comes uh up to mind for me is yeah, just again, thinking not too long ago, the conversation, the hard conversation did happen, but it happened, it happened way too late.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: And and and I don't know if it was fear or pride.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: It might have been a mixture of both.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: It might have been fear that, hey, you know, I might be jumping the gun on this, or like maybe I don't have all the information, or or like, you know, we like to say I don't really know their heart.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: Or it might have been pride in just thinking, like, you know what, I I can I can lead them through this and I can help shift and I can help shape their heart.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, really?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: You you you you can do that?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: I I didn't know, you know, and I was like, ah, you're informed.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: So like, and ultimately it it did ended up, it did end up just causing more harm than good to our team.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: And it was just, it was just there was this frustration all all around.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: And looking back on it now, it was like, man, you know, you have you know you you've you've heard of this this term, the anatomy of a car wreck, where you just stop and you look and you just say, Man, like, you know, when you know you're doing the post-accident analysis, the after action report, and and Omer, there were just there were red flags like from the jump.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: That, you know, because again, and I think that's the other thing too, like you said, like your friends, and this person's eager, and they're gifted, and they're available.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's the other piece, like they're available, and the answer was like always yes, and I allowed that to just cloud my my judgment straight up.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: And and I knew the Lord was like, hey, Willie, like, brother, there, hey, you need to press pause.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like, pause, like pasture them through this.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: There's a difference, I think, in pastoring and leading people.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: And the the crazy thing about it was because I didn't pasture this person well, they didn't allow me to lead them well.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: He said it again.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: If you want to lead people well, you have to shepherd them well.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: And that is actually where you get to discern whether or not they will allow you to be their shepherd.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Because if they won't allow you to shepherd them, they will not allow you to lead them.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: I always tell people, and it's it's conflicting to some, that if I need you, I can't lead you.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and people are like, What?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't need me?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, like in the sense of like, so you don't need me to serve on the team, it's like, yeah, like I want you to.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: And people are like, but that's hard because I want to feel needed.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's that's what people have told me.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, but but I I I desire to feel needed, like I it's what helps me.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm like, okay, but if if I need you, if every time I call you, you're like, dang it, all right.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Pastor Homer's calling me, what does he need?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if that's the posture that you have of me, that our relationship is based on that I need you.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so that means that when I have to sit with you and talk to you, you you're not your heart is not in a place to receive direction and leadership.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're you're like, all right, what does he want?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I can't lead you, I can't pasture you.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so I always ask people when I meet with them, I'm like, hey, do I have permission to pastor you before I actually lead them?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because again to your point, Pastor Willie, like you have to shepherd them because when we pastor people, we're not it's not based on preference, yeah, it's not based on what feels good.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's this is what the word of God says.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and this is the standard by which we're gonna lead you and shepherd you, and then leadership is the decisions that we make after, yeah, you know, and so so there is the shepherding, and then there's the leading, and so it's hard, it's attention that's difficult, but having the hard conversations is is it's worth it, and it it it shapes you, it turns you into another person as a leader in the sense of that.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: I believe, like in scripture says, you know, to him who's much is given, much is required.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, I I believe that the Lord will place more on your on your shoulders when he can trust you with the hard things.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a lot of times we want the easy things, yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: But the the the one talent is easy to bury.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Come on, you know, but God wants he doesn't want you to just live with one, like he wants to give you more, but how we stored the things God gives us matters.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Come on.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I appreciate that, Omer.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: Hey family, listen, we hey, we pray that this episode has been a blessing for you.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: And and I I do want to echo something that I want to piggyback off of something that Pastor Homer just said.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you have to lead people through through good times and hard times.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: But remember that the the Lord's with you as you're doing this.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know, as as Paul wraps up the book of 2 Corinthians, I just finished reading that a couple of weeks ago and it's just been ruminating.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: He makes this statement, he says, you know, that he tells the Corinthian church, this is the third time I'm having to come to you to have a hard conversation, to address some things.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: And he says, I may look weak in appearance, but I'm the power comes from Christ.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: And he says, Jesus was crucified in weakness, but he raised in power.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: And he says, Hey, when when I when we come, we're gonna appear weak, but you're gonna sense the power of Christ as we're bringing this correction, as we're bringing this leadership and his guidance.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so I just want to encourage you as a leader, when you step in that space to have that hard conversation, you have four people involved.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's you, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: And you cannot lose as long as you remember that they have your back.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so pray, humble yourself, be quick to listen, be slow to speak and slow to get angry, and be sensitive and attentive to the Holy Spirit.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like do what Jesus says in Matthew 7.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, get get the get the log out of your own eye so that you can see clearly how to remove the speck from your brother or your sister's eye.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's so important because I think timing is important.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we don't know that, we don't know what the timing is, but the Holy Spirit knows exactly what he's doing in the other individual as much as what he's doing in your life.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so listening to what's happening, but hearing the the leading of the Holy Spirit, bro, that's that's key.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: We should have started there.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: But I think it's better here because they're gonna remember that.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, don't forget.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: Don't don't forget.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: Come on.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, until next time, thank you for joining us.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Peace out.