Latest / The Cyclical Doula Podcast: Fertility Awareness, Charting Cycles, and Reproductive Health Education / Listening Before the Body Screams: Nervous System Healing with Nicole Sawyer
Transcript
- emmamma: I am so excited to have Nicole here with me today. Thanks so much for being here. Can you tell us all a little bit more about who you are just as a human being? Emmamma: hey, just popping in real quick to say sure you're subscribed to the Cyclical Doula podcast on whichever platform you're listening to. ⁓ Thanks so much for being here today on the cyclical doula podcast. If this episode resonated with you, the most powerful thing that you can do is to share it, send it to a friend, text it to your sister, forward it to that group chat. This is how conversations about our bodies start changing, quietly, organically, woman to woman. you are listening and thinking, ⁓ ⁓ want help applying this to my Nicole: Sure, my name is Nicole. I professionally, I'm an occupational therapist. I own some private practices in Charleston area. We focus on body work and nervous system regulation. And I also do some online health mentorship for women to help them reconnect with their bodies and their intuition. And I'm a mom. I have two boys, I homeschool. That's pretty much what I do. That's all I have time for. Emmamma: And don't miss upcoming conversations. If this episode is resonating with you, please share it with a friend, rate it and write a review. This is how this movement grows, not through algorithms, but through women talking to women. All right, let's jump back into it. emmamma: So, yeah. Emmamma: I offer free cycle clarity calls. It's a relaxed conversation over Zoom we talk through your goals, your charting practices, and kind of support that would actually make sense for you. can book one at emmamma.com / free. And if you already, make sure you're following or subscribe to the Cyclical Doula - podcast so that you don't miss future episodes. emmamma: Yeah. Absolutely. That's a lot. There's a lot of other things you probably couldn't fit in much more than that. Amazing. Well, I am so excited to have this conversation today and talk to you about all the different things. ⁓ But let's start. I know so much of what you do comes from not only like your professional experience, but also your personal story. So what do you want to share about like your own Nicole: Yeah. Okay. Emmamma: And if you feel called to leave a rating or review, it genuinely helps more women find this work. So thank you. You deserve to understand body. You deserve to feel confident in your reproductive choices. And you ⁓ have to figure it out alone. I'll see you next week. Thanks for being here. emmamma: journey, ⁓ getting to the point of healing and through that process that led you to be where you are. Nicole: Yeah, I mean, it's been a long journey. I would say the last 10 years plus of my life, I've just kind of been on this healing journey. It started a lot with like, I feel like pain in my body. You know, I can, I always had kind of like a low level of anxiety, but it never really registered for me growing up. It was kind of like my norm. emmamma: Yeah. Nicole: ⁓ But in my 20s, after my dad passed away, I also was in a really bad car accident and I just had this terrible whiplash injury that I was just trying to address with like body-based therapies. ⁓ And I just felt like as, you know, I found some things that worked with the body, but then my symptoms would always come back. ⁓ And then I started to get into more like the nervous system regulation portion, like not just addressing the physical body and that. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nicole: I had even more huge shifts and then it opened up this world of like looking at my mindset and some of like my thought patterns that were not helping me out. And then it just unrolled this pathway of ⁓ spiritual work that kind of helped to integrate everything for me. And so the work that I do with women in the mentorship program, it's called Trinity Integration. It's a mind, body, spirit integration. So. That's kind of, you know, I do the work in the clinic where I can work with people's bodies, but even with that, like that's been my craft for so long, but I feel like I can only get so far without addressing all three. emmamma: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think they're so they're obviously so intertwined that when you have a hold up of one of them, like you can't get to that spot of like feeling good and not in pain and feeling ⁓ healthy in general and all of those things. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. emmamma: ⁓ so when you like, you had mentioned about like hidden triggers when you were filling out my form, when you look back at your own experience, what are some of the things that you were missing, like in those in those times to figure out what was what was taking place and find that like mind body, soul, spirit aspect? Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, I think there were, so when I talk about hidden triggers, it's like they can be, it's kind of the root cause, like what's the deeper cause. So we're focused on these symptoms in our bodies. Those are, think, the most like concrete reads for us, the most concrete flags that like, hey, there's a problem here. ⁓ But so with like my neck pain, wasn't always, it wasn't, after a while, there wasn't a problem with my neck anymore, but I was still. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicole: having neck pain. So it was like, okay, what was the trigger? For me, it was a lot of childhood stuff, just having like a pretty chaotic childhood in my home. And what happens is, a child when we can't, and even adults, right, the body keeps the score. So what happens when we can't move through something and fully process and integrate is that it gets stored in our body as tension. And then, Emmamma: Welcome to the Cyclical Doula podcast. I'm Emma, a certified fertility awareness educator, miscarriage doula and the founder of Emmamma emmamma: Mm-hmm. Nicole: you know, we will come into these situations that are almost similar to the original and it just kind of reactivates that pattern. So for me, it was a lot of emotional trauma that was reactivating it for me, like just this baseline of not feeling safe. that's the, the antidote really is like creating safety in these three pillars, like safety in the body with the fashion, the nervous system, safety in the mind. emmamma: and Mm-hmm. Nicole: and then we can kind of reconnect with our intuition, our spiritual life. But yeah, I mean, there were, I was totally beyond like the emotional stuff. I was totally like disconnected from my own intuition. So like just staying in situations that were keep triggering for me, because it was comfortable, like not realizing like, hey, your body is like shouting at you. Like that's a no. So for me, it was... disconnect in all three. I had hidden trigger everywhere, like literally. And I did have some, body work stuff that I needed to work out too, just some compensations and movement patterns. So I really did have to kind of do a deep dive in all three. You know, not all at once. It kind of rolled out for me, like first the body, then the mind, and then the spiritual stuff kind of like unravels, which is, you know, that's how I work with women too, because emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Emmamma: This space is for women who want to understand their bodies deeply, not just memorize information, but actually feel confident in interpreting their cycles. Here we talk about ovulation, hormones, cervical mucus, basal body temperature, and all that's messy in between emotional layers that come with being woman. We talk about trying to conceive, avoiding pregnancy ⁓ hormones. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nicole: We do have to address the body first. Like we have to create safety in the body as humans. It's like the foundation of our human experience is our body. It's where we get the most information. It's where we experience everything. ⁓ and that's, yeah. So that was my journey, the body. And that's kind of where we have to start. Emmamma: postpartum transitions, pregnancy loss, perimenopause, and everything in between. Because body literacy isn't just about charting. It's about the autonomy. It's about informed consent. It's about not outsourcing your reproductive decisions to guesswork or fear. Each week, you'll hear conversations with women's health professionals, ⁓ workers, ⁓ emmamma: Right. Yeah, I think that's amazing. think, again, I have had, you know, I've had physical trauma to my body. I had a concussion in college and all of those things, right? There's sometimes that physical aspect of an injury and that you are like, okay, this is like, you need some physical body work to make sure that you're okay coming out of this. But it's so true that there's all those other aspects of that that play into. ⁓ Nicole: Okay. Emmamma: and researchers along with solo episodes where I teach practical skills you can apply to your own cycle right away. if you have ever felt like you should have learned this information sooner, if you have ever felt disconnected from your cycle, Nicole: Right, yep. Yeah. emmamma: ⁓ how that goes for the rest of it. I feel like so many women are probably like, in that pattern of like those, like as you were talking, like, you kind of like fix it for a little bit, and then it comes back up and those like persistent symptoms, especially with like those tension, ⁓ and all of those things. Do you think that, or like what patterns do you see when you're working with women? And is it kind of linked to Emmamma: If you want to raise the next generation without shame around their bodies, you are in the right place. So grab your tea, open up your notes app, and let's build a cycle confidence together. Nicole: Yeah. emmamma: a certain aspect of who they are as individuals, or is it more like overall arching as a whole? Nicole: Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, I put it out there as like persistent symptoms. And then when I kind of get into some more like nitty gritty advertising, I'm like calling out specific things. ⁓ I mean, the biggest one, I actually started by just like marketing towards women with neck pain. I think that's huge. But then I was like, I mean, it really can be any pain. But I think the biggest things I see are neck and shoulder tension pain, jaw pain, tension headaches. ⁓ And then it always comes out like all these other physical ailments too, like hips, things like that. Those are the biggest areas. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Nicole: ⁓ And they do translate into certain things. Like when we have neck and shoulder tension and pain, it's like we literally feel like you're carrying the weight of the world. And as women and mothers, I just think that's so common. Like, you know, we're not supported. We're kind of doing everything. We're working, we're taking care of kids. We're mothering like we're in community, but like there's no community. And so. emmamma: Right. Nicole: That's what that translates to. And we see it like in our postures when we get stressed, we're like, ⁓ my gosh, you know, it's like, this weight is like so heavy. ⁓ And then the jaw pain is usually there's like some anger in it too. There's like this like gritting tension of like anger suppression. So that was like a big one that I had too with just the way that I grew up. was like, yeah, there was no way me expressing that anger at my home would have been okay or without. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Nicole: you know, repercussions. So all of that just kind of gets stuff down. ⁓ The headaches is usually aligned with like some spiritual disconnect, like not really listening to your own intuition. If think of like, you know, this is where a spirit comes from, you're kind of like cut off. ⁓ But again, like all of these things sometimes have like a physical portion too, which is why once I start talking with women, we talk about everything. You know, we talk about childhood, we talk about food triggers, we talk about, you know, things like that. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicole: I had a client that I worked with in my clinic doing body work for like, it was a year and she had horrible headaches. And then like all of sudden one day, and I'm not doing the same intake work that I'm doing like with my mentoring, all of a sudden one day she was like naming all these foods that were like triggers for her. And I was like, you know, those are all really high histamine foods. Have you ever like taken a histamine blocker? And she started taking it and she was like, I emmamma: Bye. Nicole: never, she has maybe like one headache every couple of months now. So, you know, it's crazy. It's like when we're not really doing a deep dive into all everything, you know, it's like we're never going to know what the symptom is. And I think our culture is just like, make it go away, like make it go away. ⁓ You know, take this or like go to physical therapy, right. And it's like, that's emmamma: That's crazy. Yeah. Nicole: the physical therapists are not going to ask you about your upbringing and most of them are not going ask you about diet, you know, I'm not going to ask you about your spiritual beliefs and you know, they're just not going to. So, I... emmamma: Right. Yeah. Absolutely. think that's huge. I think that's such a huge part of just advocacy for ourselves as women too of like, sometimes we're we're just like pushed into this like, okay, like that's a symptom. Like here's something to help like with that symptom versus like on my own journey too. I'm like, no, no, no. Like I can keep dealing with the symptom if you can help me get to the root cause. Like I don't want to just like... Nicole: Okay. emmamma: deal, like get the symptom away and still have all of these other aspects of it. And I think that's a huge part of just like advocating in general and finding these people that are willing to like, ask the good questions of like, okay, like, well, what else is going on? Or what else are you eating? Or what other things show up on a regular basis to that your body's communicating? Yeah. Nicole: Yeah, definitely. And that's the thing. It's like your body is communicating. And I think we also like the thing that I see a lot with women is just this frustration towards their body. And that's not going to help too. You know, like our body is trying to help us, right? Like it starts as a whisper and then we ignore because we have all these responsibilities. And then it's like, okay, now it's something that I can't ignore. emmamma: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nicole: And that's how the body works. And it's like, our bodies want to help us. Like they don't want to get to that point, but like we're so disconnected where it's not, you know, in Western medicine, we're just not taught this part of health, you know, it's like, we're just not. So it's truly communication and it's just learning the language of your body and everyone is different. Like there's not, you know, there's these themes like I talked about where it's like, okay, if you, emmamma: Bye. Bye. Nicole: If you're a woman and have neck pain, chances are you feel overburdened with your responsibilities. But you know, the story is different for every woman that I work with. emmamma: Yup. think that's ⁓ a powerful aspect of just naming that that ⁓ the case, I think, sometimes. And I think ⁓ you're talking about this, I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, I need to relax my shoulders. ⁓ But I think especially young moms, I hear so many people who are breastfeeding and they're up in that state that it's there. yeah, there's that physical muscle tension too, but it's ⁓ all of aspects of it. Nicole: I know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ emmamma: ⁓ So you talked about nervous system regulation. Tell me more about what that looks like and how, like if you're living in this chronic dysregulation, how we get out of that. Nicole: Yeah, so I really like to talk about the book, The Body Keeps the Score, because that's like kind of the foundation of my work. And he, the author talks about how when we're in the state of dysregulation, there are three things that really speak to our nervous system, and those are movement, touch, and breath. So the easiest thing for movement is walking. you know, we can get outside, you know, be in nature and just go for a walk, like a minimum of 10 minutes and like you'll feel the reset. It's like, you know, it kind of stops those thought loops. It kind of just like takes us out of the trigger and then touch. So there's research that longer than 20 seconds of a hug, you get like this big burst of oxytocin. So like mandatory in my house, we're doing these minimum 20 second hugs at least once a day. And then breath, I mean, simple. There's tons of breathing techniques that you can find. The easiest way that you can just kind of regulate yourself is make sure your exhale is longer than your inhale. So do like a four count inhale, six count exhale for like a few rounds. And those things are like really quick. But I feel like sometimes we don't implement things until we're like, emmamma: Mm. Nicole: really deep in the trigger. So it's like, we've got to be making these things a part of our routine to kind of keep us out of that. So our nervous system, if you think about it, ⁓ it's like a cup of water, and we're just going to keep adding water to the cup. And you know, it's gonna overflow. So if we, and then it's like, okay, once it's overflowing, there's still stuff coming in, and you're trying to empty it. And it's like, it's gonna be too much. So if you're slowly emptying the cup, asthma is coming in. Like if you're scheduling these things into your day, I mean, I literally have to set alarms for everything. Like I will set alarms to like pray, know, like I'll set alarms for like exercise. Like I have to set alarms for everything. And you know, it's that it's whatever's gonna work. We just have to be taking care of ourselves before it gets to that persistent symptom. emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, I like that. I think that sometimes I feel like there's sometimes this stigma of like, especially within motherhood, like, there's so many things to do, and like such a long to do list of like, always getting stuff done and always having this like mental load of dealing with everybody else's schedules and all of those things. And, and I feel like there's this underlying theme of like, like you, you just have to have it all together and do all the things and remember all the stuff but like Nicole: React. emmamma: setting alarms is like good and okay and like you need that time to like be like okay like I need this reminder to like take a break and like do this other thing or to schedule in that time of just feeding into yourself and having that space there just so that you can you can focus on yourself. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like list making was like a thing for me that I used to do to try to like regulate myself and my list would be like, crazy, like so many things every day, and then I would cross things out and like moving on to the next day. And it just looked like chaos. And I was like, this is like, more stressful. But I still do those things. I read a book called The One Thing and that was really helpful for me because I do feel like we try to emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nicole: And I'm still guilty of it. You know, I think we just have so, as women, we have way more connections in our brain, right to left than men. And so our ability to multitask truly is there, like neurologically, and we try to maximize that. ⁓ But, you know, I think a lot of it is like the energy that we're bringing into it. Cause I still make lists today. My lists are just much more realistic. Like where I would have like, 10 things I wanted to get done in a day. I'm like maybe four, you know, like, and then I do try to do one thing at a time because it's too much energy when we're starting and stopping. ⁓ It just, creates more stress in our nervous system. emmamma: Yeah, it's something I've been working on this year, like in the last couple months is like, okay, like, I'm just gonna focus on one thing at a time and like try to block everything else out, which is hard, like it's a hard shift to make. But it really can just kind of like lower that overall overflow of cup kind of situation for sure. Nicole: Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. it's like, you know, I'm not perfect. I'm like, know so much about nervous systems. But you know, sometimes I do have to bounce around in tasks. And like, that's okay, too. I think we we want to be like, a lot of times it's this like need for perfection or telling ourselves it has to look this way. And it's like a healthy structure of structure and flexibility, you know, it goes so far for our nervous system. emmamma: Yeah, okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. for sure. Do you notice any nervous system patterns interacting with people's like hormonal rhythms, cyclical? Nicole: You mean like certain times of the month or there? Well, I mean, I can speak for myself. ⁓ You know, I do have a lot more anxiety like leading up to my menstrual bleed and I, you know, I try to be really mindful of like my activity level during like these times where like, or around ovulation, I'm a little bit more tired like. emmamma: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good, that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole: You know, you know more about that if that's like across the board or like, you know, or if it's just woman to woman. But I think, you know, leading up, of course, we're having these symptoms probably during the bleed. Like we probably need to slow down a little bit is like what I do notice. my anxiety peaks. You know, my cup is more full, more full. So I don't have a lot of capacity for. emmamma: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah Nicole: I would say leading up to it, my cup is full. I don't have a lot of capacity to tolerate a lot of incoming information. ⁓ I think like as I start my bleed, I'm just more tired. So, you know, I need to slow down for both kind of like different reasons, but like during that, I would say like 10 day window, I really try to be mindful. The rest of the month is like, you know, not as fluctuating for me personally, but yeah. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like that's pretty common that that's that's how people describe all of that of like needing needing that space in the luteal phase and that in that time during during bleeds menstruation just like to kind of like come in a little bit and and like yes all those other like triggers are going to be higher of of getting there closer just because it's a little bit a little bit more there's a little bit more dysregulation with just the way our hormones are. Nicole: Thank Yeah. Yeah. emmamma: yeah. What? Yeah. Nicole: Yeah, I was gonna say too, I think with like the nervous system dysregulation and like, fertility is probably very important. Well, not probably, but it is, you know, if we think of like, we're in fight or flight, where it's like our body is focused on survival, basically. And then we're in this rest and digest where it's like our more like organ deep organ functions can happen. So I mean, when we're in fight or flight, emmamma: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It definitely is. Yeah. Nicole: Like your body is not going to let you conceive successfully. Like it's just, it's not a priority. It's like, so. emmamma: Right, right. Our reproductive system is the first thing that goes out the window and our bodies, yeah. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. So I think it's like even our modern medicine kind of misses that as like a really important aspect of like, the journey is like, I you can do all this stuff, but at the end of the day, if you don't regulate your nervous system, like your body, it's you're going to be fighting against your your physiology. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that's a really good point of like, that's a different perspective than people being like, ⁓ just like, don't stress and you'll get pregnant. Because those are like, that's two different mindsets. They're like, just don't stress. Like, that's not, first of all, that's not helpful. But that's not really like, supportive to the whole body versus like, the way that you're talking about it is like, no, like, let's look at like, Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yes, it's not helpful. emmamma: physical body, the nervous system, your mind, your spirit, and like let's make sure that they're in like most optimal state so that your body is feeling like good overall and then can be able to ovulate well and have the possibility of pregnancy and all of those things. Nicole: Yes. Yes. Yes, definitely. emmamma: Um, awesome. You talked about...is Fascha. Nicole: no, it cut out a second. You second guessed it. ⁓ Yeah, it's fascia. ⁓ Yeah, you want me talk about that a little bit? emmamma: Yeah, so it's not something that I've really heard of, maybe I have, but just don't know what the word is. But also, like, just tell us how it like, plays into the work that you do. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, sure. So fascia is essentially our connective tissue ⁓ and it's basically like the, it's a system and there are tons of nerves that run through it. The biggest one that runs through it is the vagus nerve, which is basically like our bodies. It's the biggest nerve and it's designed to detect any threat in and outside of our bodies. So. The fascia system is essentially a direct connection between our body and our brain as far as safety goes and our nervous system. ⁓ It's the first most interconnected system that develops in utero. it literally touches everything in our body. It touches every organ system. It touches every organ. It touches everything. ⁓ And so like if you think of massage, when you're going to get a massage, they're working like directly in the muscle. emmamma: Mm. Nicole: sends a signal to the level of the spinal cord and it's a very primitive low level signal. It's like goes to the spinal cord, bounces back to relax the muscle and then it goes away very quickly. So when we're working with the fascia, we want to kind of separate everything because when the fascia gets bunched up, it causes tension but the signals from the vagus nerve can't get from the body to the brain and so the brain thinks that there's a problem in the body and that's going to keep us in fight or flight. When I'm doing the myofascial work, I'm basically just separating all of the tissues and allowing the signal to go up to the brain. And then the brain sends the signal back to the muscle to relax. And it's a much longer lasting change than what happens when we're just working with the musculoskeletal system. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Okay, that makes sense. That's really cool. I so now that now that you've explained this, I've I have heard about it in specific ways, like in regards to like tongue ties and like tension in like, in your jaw and like all of that. But like you're saying that it works in like all aspects of the way. Yeah. So cool. Okay. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and there are things called fascia lines, which kind of follow like the acupuncture meridians, but it's basically how certain muscles in the body overlap. So it's kind of predictable, like if you have tension in your jaw, you're also gonna have tension in your hips, you're also gonna have problems in your feet. So it's pretty structured, the system, how the muscles overlap and where we're gonna know ⁓ the body is connected, everything's connected. emmamma: Okay. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, for sure. Nicole: So that's why like, you know, someone comes to me for neck pain and I'm like doing all this stuff for their feet and they're like, what are you doing? And it's like, you know, I'm helping you. ⁓ And it works because everything's connected and you might, where you feel the pain is usually where like the weakest link in the chain is. It's not always where the tension is being held. So we do want to kind of look at the whole body, ⁓ which is also why things like physical therapy sometimes don't work because it's like, emmamma: Yeah. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicole: you're gonna go for shoulder pain and they're only gonna look at that one shoulder. And that's how in a lot of it's insurance, like we only have a script to treat my shoulder. But a lot of times I'll find, I'm like, oh yeah, your pain is here, but like your left shoulder is really where all your attention is. And this is just like a symptom of compensations. emmamma: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. There's so many opinions about the medical system and how it fails us in that regards, but... No, no, no, no. Yeah, for sure. Nicole: Yeah, I know. And I'm not getting physical therapy. I have nothing against physical therapist. It's the same for any profession. know, it's like as much and we're under, you know, all these constraints from insurance and once I like to believe everyone's doing the best that they can in the system they work in. emmamma: Yeah. ⁓ for sure. Absolutely. I agree. I do believe that people are trying to do the best they can. ⁓ I so this is mind boggling to me in the sense of like, how much our body like is so connected and not mind boggling in the sense of like, I've heard it before. I know that it's true. But it's, it's one of those things where like, it's, it's just like continually amazing how much our bodies are so connected. Nicole: Bye. Yeah. emmamma: And like you're saying, like that tension in one spot could really be coming from another, like where it's radiating to a different spot or like all of those things. And then also adding in like, it might be mindset, it might be spiritual. And like all of those things when we're able to connect them all can really just bring so much more peace and healing in that aspect. ⁓ What, so talk to me a little bit about how you do this, like, in your program about how you're walking women through the whole process. Nicole: Sure. So the whole program is 16 weeks and we spend the first four weeks focusing on the body. The second four weeks is focused on the mind restructuring and then the last eight weeks is learning some spiritual practices and reconnecting with your intuition, your higher self and then just something bigger than you. And so It's all online videos, so it's 20 minutes a day where I have pre-recorded content and their commitment is to do the 20 minutes a day and then we meet face to face once a week and we're kind of going deeper and doing some of the processing. So my goal is to really, when we're doing the meetings, is to find throughout the 16 weeks a couple of experiences that really are the root cause. It's usually some kind of trauma. emmamma: Yeah. Nicole: It's sometimes it's like something they know about like, you know, sexual assaults, ⁓ accidents, injuries, things like that. I had a woman who like, you know, she, we really had to like pull it out and it come to find out it was like the process of building her house ⁓ was really stressful financially. There was like a loss of safety that happened there. She was moving. There was like a loss of community support. So it does take time to kind of get there, which is why like, emmamma: Bye. Mm-hmm. Nicole: we meet and I'm just ask, I have like these questions, but I'm just asking questions. I'm just asking tons of questions. Like I want to know everything. ⁓ And it's like, finally we get there, but I have to rely a lot on my intuition to know like, okay, there was like a charge to this when I asked this question, like let's go deeper. So it's like, I'll kind of on my higher self to guide me in the process. And I wouldn't be able to do that if I wasn't regulated myself, not to say, you know, I'm emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nicole: perfect picture of regulation, but you know, I just need to be a couple steps ahead of the people that I'm working with essentially. emmamma: Yeah, yeah, and like being in that mindset and on that day when you're meeting with people specifically and all of those things for sure. Absolutely. That's so good. Yeah. Nicole: Yes. Yeah. And it's not like it's one and done, like the point of the program, it's like, we're humans, like we are always going to go through stressful things. And it's like, we just want to develop our resilience to like, what is our capacity to hold stress? And it's like, you know, it starts off really small. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Nicole: And then it's like, you look back and it's like the things that would have triggered me, you know, even a year ago, because I'm growing and integrating are not triggers for me anymore. So it's like, this was my capacity. Now here's my capacity to hold stress. And it's not like we don't want to live there, you know, like we don't, it's not fun, but it is a part of life. Like we just have these seasons that are more stressful. And then we have these seasons where we feel like we're winning and we kind of fluctuate all throughout life. So. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Nicole: I found it really hard when I was marketing towards neck pain, because I'm like, these women think that I'm going to get rid of their neck pain. And I'm like, it's not my work to do. I can't promise that. I'm going to give you all of the tools, and then it's up to you to implement the tools to stay regulated no matter what you go through. But I can't promise that you're not going to have some major trauma or this long term period of stress in the next couple of months. ⁓ emmamma: Mmm, yeah. Nicole: You you have to go back to your tools. emmamma: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. What? Yes, I love that. I think that's really a really powerful thing of like, even no matter like how much information you give, like we on the other side, like still need to do the work individually of like getting to that space. Like, there's so much as people who are leading that like can get but we you can't you can't do the work for somebody else. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole: We have. For sure, yeah. emmamma: ⁓ what is, so somebody's listening and they're like, this is me, I need something. What's like the best first step to listening in your and getting into this space in your Nicole: Yeah, you mean like the best first step to start on their journey? Yeah, I do think that some form of body work that is moving beyond the musculoskeletal system is going to be the best way. So we think of movement, touch, and breath. Those are great options to start. know, there's lots of breath work professionals around. You can find craniosacral therapists. You can find myofascial therapists. You can... emmamma: Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Nicole: just start going to the gym, you can just start doing a walk. But I think if we think about like, we do have to create safety in the body first to even start looking at some of the triggers in our mind. Like our body is gonna keep us in that trigger. And we really have to like first work with the fashion and the nervous system to create enough space between the trigger and well, first it's a reaction, but we wanna respond. We wanna. emmamma: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicole: It is not being triggered to the point where like, okay, I'm in this unconscious place. We want to give ourselves enough space to be able to actually respond to situations. So it is going to be the body. ⁓ And there are things you can do by yourself. There are things that you can go and find if you want to work with somebody. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. that. ⁓ And then what about the spiritual aspect of it? What do you want to share for listeners to understand, like, why that spiritual aspect of it is so important too? Nicole: Yeah, I think it's well, I mean, for me, I mean, I do literally so much like I have three businesses. I'm a single mom. I'm homeschooling my kids. I didn't mention I have a homestead. have chickens. I have goats. have dogs. have cats. And people ask me like, how do you do it? And you know, my answer today is prayer, because I feel like I'm living. a life that's aligned with my purpose. And for me, know, creator, God, goddess, universe, it doesn't matter. And that's kind of how I start with people. like, I don't care what words you use, because I do think, you know, I didn't grow up going to church. So when I first started on my path, I was taking more of like a metaphysical, like law of attraction approach. Like that felt safe for me. And I was like, ⁓ universe. Like, I could, I can get down with that. Like, emmamma: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nicole: third universe that loves me and is working to help me out. And then I went deeper on my path and I had some Native American medicine people that were my mentors and they speak about the creator. And I was like, okay, yeah, like if I turn to nature, like there's no way there's not something bigger than ourselves out there. And then when they had kids, I started getting more into like some traditional Christianity ⁓ concepts and those resonated with me. emmamma: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nicole: And so, you know, now it's God, creator. I don't, it doesn't matter. But I think just if we have something that we believe in that's bigger than ourselves, it makes these burdens a lot easier. Well, they don't feel like burdens anymore. And I, you know, I didn't have a relationship with something bigger than myself growing up. Like we just didn't go to church. was, my parents were raised Catholic. And I think I see a lot of that in my clients too. They're raised in a certain religion. ⁓ emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nicole: and they're so turned off by that that they go swing the totally opposite direction. ⁓ So I wasn't raised with something, you know, and I felt like I had to carry everything myself. And I'm like, I went through really hard things in my life where if I had now it's like, okay, I'm just gonna start praying and like, I'm struggling, like help me. I didn't have that. Like I felt like I had to figure everything out. I had to make everything work. emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole: And that's where all of this comes from. And I think, you know, it's like, you don't have to go to church. it doesn't, you don't have to read the Bible. Like you just have to connect with something and feel, it's like a trust, right? Like a trust in life that like, okay, this is, I'm going to be okay. Something is bigger than me. Something's got my back. You know, I don't have to have it all figured out. ⁓ So yeah, long winded, but. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's so good, though. I think it's such an important thing to hear of, that it's, it's such a powerful thing to be able to have that trust and that like, understanding that, regardless of what what that belief system is, that there's this, this hope, I think is a huge aspect of it of like, there's hope for for something else, there's hope for support, there's hope for all of those things. And that that really brings a lot of like good feelings in our body and a lot of like calmness of being able to have all of those interactions. Nicole: Yeah, and then just to piggyback that it's like one of my mentors was like just super clear that like first is your relationship with yourself and then you can have a relationship with other people and then you can have a relationship with a creator something bigger than you and so it's going to be hard to trust something completely like abstract for a lot of people if you don't trust yourself emmamma: Yeah. Yeah. Nicole: That's my first work when I start with the ⁓ spiritual practices is not to go right into prayer to like a power. It's ⁓ more to reconnect with your own intuition through your body. So it's, you know, we have these abilities. So I mean, the biggest thing is like, what is your body's yes and what is your body's no. So we... ⁓ emmamma: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Mm. Nicole: the biggest thing is like, okay, can I interpret like the signals from my own intuition? And then I can start interpreting things in a deeper level, like happening in the rest of my life. So it's like that yes and no, and we can think about it. Like if you think of relationships, like think of a relationship with someone that like truly like loves and cares for you unconditionally and like, what does that feel like in your body? You know, and then emmamma: That's good. Yeah. Nicole: we have these people in our lives where it's like we're unsettled around them. And it's like that's a no. And we have to honor we have to start honoring that. Right. And it's like even if we don't understand, it's like you're getting a no or it could be a job or relationship or a place. And it's like I'm getting a no over and over again. And then I'm wondering why my body starts screaming at me with symptoms. You know, I'm overriding. And then when we override it, emmamma: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nicole: it's like we just get disconnected. So the first part of that spiritual work is just getting clear on like what your body is trying to tell you and learning how to listen and honor that. emmamma: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's so, that's so valuable of being able to understand and feel like you're really in that space of being able to listen to your body and hear what it's saying and, and just trust that even if it doesn't like if even if you don't like have any other logical explanation for why it feels like a no that Nicole: Thank you. Yeah. emmamma: that's still okay and you can still follow through with that and feel really confident that you're listening well to your body and feeling like that safety. Nicole: Yeah, and a lot of times we just need more feedback. You know, we just need to feel the no, honor the no, and then a lot of times, like, you're going to be provided, like, a better experience. And then it's like, for me, I've done that so many times. It's like this shedding where it's like, okay, I'm getting a no, like, darn, I felt like this was gonna be good, but I have no choice but to walk away because I know what happens when I don't. Like how many times do we have a gut feeling and don't listen? It's like, damn, I really wish I had listened to that, you know? Yeah, yeah. So it's like enough times of doing the opposite where it's like, I'm gonna listen to that now. And it's like. emmamma: Truly, truly, absolutely. Yeah, Yeah. Nicole: I'll do that every day, you know, it still might take me a little bit, like it's not perfect. It's always like the journey never stops, but I'm a lot quicker now to listen to the no, honor the no, honor the yeses than I was previously. emmamma: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So good. think I think we can all just like, learn from that of being of being able to again, like being able to trust our intuition of just feeling confident in in our choices in our decisions. And like you said, sometimes it takes a little bit to to kind of reiterate the fact that like, no, no, this is not the right path to go down. But but that there's there's power in just understanding who we are and what we need. Nicole: Yeah. For sure. emmamma: Well, I have loved talking with you. What else do want to share with listeners as we finish up? Nicole: Yeah, I think we just have to not be so hard on ourselves and just know that, you know, these seasons of life, like somebody said, I just had said this in another podcast recently, but I was, you know, I was going through some hard things recently and I had a session with a mentor and he was like, you know what, Nicole, like the sun always comes up. It's like it's a part of nature. Like we're going to go through these times that feel really dark. And it's like the sun always comes up and it's usually like right when we're at the peak of like, there's no way I can tolerate any more of this, that we're just like so close. And that's how everything works. That's how our cycles work, right? Like we have, that's how the seasons work. Like everything in nature works like that. So where we have like a fresh start. And so I think just that's part of the trust too, is just like the new start is gonna come, the new day is gonna come, the new cycle is gonna come. emmamma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nicole: just kinda we're along for the ride and there are some things that can make it a little more comfortable. emmamma: That's awesome. I love that. So good. Where can people find you if they want to connect to you with you and work with you? Nicole: Yep, trinity.integration is my Instagram and I have Nicole Sawyer OTRL trinity integration on Facebook and there are links on there where I have a webinar where you can listen to me give a little bit more information on specifically my theory and how I work with people and then there's a link in the webinar if you want to book a free assessment call. emmamma: That's so good. I'll put all those things in the show notes and thanks so much for being here and for sharing all all your stuff. I love having you on and we'll hopefully all of you listeners can connect with Nicole and Yeah, thanks for being here Nicole: Thank you so much. Yes. Yes. Awesome, thank you for having me. emmamma: Chris.