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Break the Script, Be a Dad · Unstoppable You

• Jason Ulm (00:00): I would say that your worth is who you are. What you happen to produce is just an expression, one expression of that. But it makes up who you are. It's part of it, but it isn't the only thing. Bree Katulak (00:14): Hey, I'm Bree and this is Unstoppable You, the podcast for women ready to stop choosing between their dreams family and personal growth. Hey there. Welcome back. In honor of Father's Day I'm speaking with Jason Ulm, who is a husband, father of five, a business leader and someone who I think really brings thoughtful perspective to what success, leadership and fatherhood look like for men today. Because while women are often told you should be able to have it all, men are often handed a very different script to provide for their families, to be strong, not to break, to figure it out and to carry it all quietly. So today we're recognizing that many of us, men and women alike, are trying to live up to versions of success that we honestly didn't consciously choose. So Jason and I are going to be talking about fatherhood, leadership, pressure, ambition, masculinity, and what it actually looks like to build a meaningful life, not just an impressive one. (01:37): So thank you, Jason, for joining us today. I'm really excited about this episode, especially as we have Father's Day right around the corner. I did want to get started by asking you what does having it all mean to you? Jason Ulm (01:51): I don't think having it all means having everything. I think it maybe means a little bit more being aligned with what actually matters right now. And so there were seasons in my life where I think I had more stuff, I had less availability for my family. And so maybe a little out of balance if you think of it that way, but I think it's being aligned with what really matters the most right now. Bree Katulak (02:14): I completely agree with that. Alignment is key. So you wear a lot of different hats. You're a father, a husband, a business leader, a connector of all kinds, and a strategist. So I mean, how do you think today you achieve that alignment? Jason Ulm (02:33): Yeah. And actually you kind of nailed it, Bree. When I describe myself, I say, look, I'm a husband of one, father of five. Well, you throw our three dogs in there, so maybe throw eight kids together total. Connector of people and collector of stories. And I think it's changed over time how all of those things kind of play. Early in my career, what I would say is that I probably was out of balance a lot. I spent a lot of time on what mattered to grow a business, to be able to grow those sides and less time on my family. And I realized a few things that I'm sure we'll talk about, which was I was probably modeling behavior for my five kids that didn't really match what I was probably saying because the behavior of what I was actually doing wasn't matching what I was saying on a daily basis wasn't matching what I was doing. Bree Katulak (03:23): Did you ever get called out by that from your kids or your wife? Jason Ulm (03:27): 100%. Yeah. Yeah. There were times there's a picture. We're in Florida and I think we're in some condo and I'm up on the balcony and I take a picture of everybody down on the beach having fun. And we had just sold our company, so it would've been like in 2018. And there I am working while everybody else is having an awful lot of fun. So I was on vacation (03:48): Physically there, but not doing any of those things that you normally would do. I literally spent that entire week in our condo working until five or six and then having dinner with my family in a different location. And so my kids, they noticed that one pretty heavy. And for a long time from 2003 till March of 18, I was in a business where I was really required to be available pretty much 24 by seven. And if you were to talk to my kids, they knew phone numbers and they knew the words of things that I said to people all the time that no one would understand except for my kids because I said it a million times answering a call while we're eating dinner or doing something else. So yeah, I don't think they called me out on it, but they definitely noticed what I was doing. Bree Katulak (04:31): Right. And that totally makes sense. I mean, I think you just said you sold your company, you were on a great vacation, your kids were having a good time. That externally looks like a lot of success. How did that make you feel internally knowing that you were working, that your words weren't matching your actions? Jason Ulm (04:50): You probably wore it because of the way you grow up. So obviously I think growing up as a male and I was late 80s, early 90s, so graduate high school, middle 90s. And I think you're taught to win above everything else, don't lose. You're taught that your value I think is what you produce, not necessarily who you are. And so you're really taught to achieve first and your identity is second. So I think early on, I kind of felt like I was doing the right stuff. I was achieving, we were growing, things were going well. We accumulated a lot of things, but we didn't actually have the pieces that were going to be a long-term valuable for my kids. And I started to recognize it as they got older. It's amazing people say time flies. It really does. My oldest is 24 now. It's unbelievable to think about how quick that's gone, but I was missing some of those times modeling behavior for them on what they should expect as they grow up. (05:49): I had an opportunity as a husband to model the behavior of how to treat my wife. I had the opportunity for my daughters to see how they could be treated someday by their spouse and my sons, how to treat their spouse at some point in the future. But because I wasn't spending appropriate time, all that they saw were the things that we had, not necessarily the reason that we were together as a family. So I noticed it probably as they start to get a little bit older. I'm like, wow, I'm losing time here. And I'm not going to get that back. Bree Katulak (06:20): So I feel like that's a recent realization that I had too. So I just turned 41. I have started getting little soundbites from my kids of, I don't care about the thing, the toy, whatever. They were like, "I want my mommy cuddle tank to be high and right now it's at zero." And I was like, "Oh wow, that's an awakening." So how did you course correct as your kids got older or did you have that aha moment? Jason Ulm (06:48): Yeah, I think the aha moment was when your kids get a little bit older, they start to realize things differently than they do when they're younger. And it was probably my older daughter had an opportunity where she was in dance and she danced ballet and all those different types of things. And I think she was probably maybe 15 or 16. I was supposed to go on a work trip and it was during the Christmas holiday and they do The Nutcracker. And there's a part in the Nutcracker where they have this big thing called mother ginger. It's big, tall. Usually it's a guy wearing a dress and they dance with these little ginger snaps. And my wife voluntold me that I was going to be Mother Ginger. And so I had this opportunity to dance. Now, I look like this as a guy. You can imagine what I look like as a female. (07:36): I'll show you some pictures. We're friends. Blow your mind. But I'm up on stage and I'm dancing and then I get to go a chance to go backstage and I see my daughter. She's out on stage and I'm behind the curtain. I'm no longer a spectator. I'm part of the world. And so that particular point in time, I'm like, oh my gosh, I could have been in California doing a business meeting, which I think I ended up pushing, whatever the case was. It was some kind of ... And I did this and I said, "Okay, that's it. From now on if I'm asked, I will do it. " And so now married my high school sweetheart, 28 years later, if you would've asked, who would've danced more in ballet, my wife or I, totally over under would've been my wife, but it's absolutely me. And so you wouldn't know what to look at me, but I've been on stage a bunch. (08:20): It's been a lot of fun. Bree Katulak (08:21): I absolutely love that. So going back to something that you previously said about men and specifically your generation being taught achievement first, ambition, producing, et cetera, what do you want your kids to take away about the values of identity, ambition and what success looks like? Jason Ulm (08:41): Oh, it's a great question. I think what I want them to take away is that success is really individualized. It's based on what they deem valuable and where it is they want to spend their time. To me, I think if they are good people, kind to others, helpful and have an opportunity to work and support themselves in something that they enjoy, that's successful, whatever that happens to look like. And with five kids, you would think that we had five different parents because all of our kids are completely different. It's unbelievable the personalities that have come from my wife and I's house, but they all have started to go down a path of something they like and enjoy and they're all generally good kids. And now young adults, it's fun to see that where their career is starting to go and as the older ones are beginning to go out on their own, what they're deeming is success and the joys that they're having. (09:34): And I love the fact that they like to share those things with my wife and I. Bree Katulak (09:37): Oh, I love the communication aspect. That's great. So you have, I believe, three girls and two boys. How do you feel the pressures or scripts differ from men and women and how do you communicate it maybe similarly or differently depending on which kid you're interacting with? Jason Ulm (09:57): That's a really good question because we go from age group 24 down to 15. So we have 24 to 20, 16 and 15, three biological and two adopted kiddos are a litle too are adopted. And I would say that we talk a lot about people use the word balance and their work-life balance is what they will say. And I think a lot of times that question or that thought tends to be put towards the female side of the equation, having balance because I think the expectation was you're going to take care of everything at home and you may have an opportunity to go work and you could have a balanced life because you could do those things. I think from a male perspective, the word isn't the same. I think because of the way we're raised, it's maybe thought more around responsibility. So we have these responsibilities of things that we have to do, but ultimately it's really balance. (10:46): And so we don't happen to call it that. I think it's something that should change. I think a lot of people want it to change because ultimately what we really would like is an opportunity to live our lives, have an enjoyable time like what we do and have that provide, but that's not who we are. I think that's the biggest part when I talk to my kids, I never introduce myself as, "Hey, I'm Jason in the old days, Apia Communications and I'm the VP of sales," whatever the case is. I would always just say, "Hey, I'm Jason. I'm a connector of people or I'm Jason, I'm a collective of stories or with a father of five or a husband of one." Those things are who I am. What I happen to do is not my identity. Well, that's the piece I think I want my kids to come away with. (11:32): I talk about it fairly similar with each of them just in a different way based on their age and stage in life. Bree Katulak (11:38): I think what you just said is perfect because I personally don't believe in the balance aspect necessarily and we can debate that for sure if you want. But I do think what I struggled with was forming my identity with what my job was. And that is so inspiring to hear that you have the opposite connection with your kids and yourself in general. You're a collector of stories and that's amazing. And I think over the last couple of years, I've really done a lot of work to disconnect myself from the role and find who I am. And it's been so much fun and I've started collecting stories just like you and learning about people and staying curious is so enlightening for sure. Jason Ulm (12:30): I think the piece for me is somebody said this to me a long time ago, be wherever your shoes are, be with that person or those people at that time because it will end, but there could be an opportunity for a memory that would last forever. And so if you're always looking to the next thing, you're going to miss out on the opportunity that's there in front of you. And so that's one of the things that we focus on. And I'll tell you, I didn't do that early in my career. I missed an awful lot of memories and it took a long time for that really to sink in. And I think as my kids aged, it really started to set in that each one of those memories is something I'm going to miss out on that I'm not going to have a chance to do again and I don't want to do that. Bree Katulak (13:10): Do you think your kids fully grasp that or do you think they'll have an awakening as they start to hit mid-age as well? Jason Ulm (13:17): Great question. So I would say the older ones are beginning to, because they're beginning to say and do some things that we've done in the past and that's the best thing you can have as a parent in my opinion because there are times when they're about 13 till about 18, you don't think kids are paying attention at all and clearly you don't know anything, dad, you're all of this kind of stuff. But now as they get to be young adults, they're coming back and their actions are similar to what we had talked about and what we had done. That is awesome. When it comes to finances, for example, and budgeting and understanding those things, they're beginning to do some things that we talked to them about that when they were 15, like, "Yeah, whatever. Dad, you don't know anything." But then it comes back around and they're like, "Wow, this is actually what we should be doing." Or just in general, or to hear their questions that they're asking us now, because those questions are leading down a path of their growth and you're thinking, wow, that question's pretty good. (14:17): It probably may have came from somewhere and thank goodness they were paying attention. And thank goodness we paid attention when we were younger as well and helped them kind of lead the way there. But yeah, it's certainly interesting as they get older. Bree Katulak (14:28): Absolutely. So one of the scripts that I feel like I was handed earlier in my life was that the trajectory of my career or success had to essentially be linear. So for example, I started out as an accountant and I would always be an accountant and the top of the chain would be CFO, right? Now obviously I'm pivoting and I also became CEO as we talked about on your podcast too. How do you talk about the journey with your kids and do you talk about failing fast or pivoting in your daily talks? Jason Ulm (15:03): Yeah, it's a really good question. I think pivoting certainly and failing fast, but the linear journey is an interesting topic because it really isn't linear because as you gain knowledge, you have an opportunity potentially to apply that knowledge somewhere else in a completely different area. So take someone like myself. I didn't finish college, so I went to just one year, decided that wasn't for me because I got into sales and they had this thing sent to my check and it glowed like the sun. It happened to be called a commission check like, wow, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen. I guess I'm a sales guy. And so I go down that path and I start off in technology and I'm selling phone service and traveling the country and doing all that kind of stuff. As we finish up and we sell that business, I think, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? (15:52): All of my experiences in one area, no one would ever want to hire me to go do something else. Well, as it turns out, I went and became a geographic vice president at a very large consulting firm, Capgemini, no business understanding and no background in consulting. And I ran a division for those folks for almost five years and I did well, but I had an outside perspective and a different thought process and that was actually needed in that space. And so what's going to come next? Who knows, but your collection of your knowledge and your experience allows you to apply that in different places and I think you'll fall into an opportunity where you can apply it in the right place for you at that right time. It may look a little different. It may be an uptick, like you said, from CFO to CEO, but it may be something different and maybe president next or whatever the case is, but those types of things will change. (16:43): I think it has to do with your ability to evolve as well and to put yourself in those positions. Bree Katulak (16:49): Absolutely. And you mentioned different perspectives. So I'm going to ask what do you think men perceive differently about pressure that women may carry or that men maybe misunderstand? Jason Ulm (17:06): That's a really, really good question. I think it has to do with how we're brought up a little bit. I think we all are raised with pressure and tension, but I think it goes back a litle bit towards responsibility. I think as a male, we're taught to be responsible and this is what we have to do. And I think in some cases we believe or I might perceive that females weren't taught that same way from a responsibility standpoint. And I think there's a mismatch. I think just the way that we talk about that pressure, I think in a lot of cases we don't particularly understand what that really means and because of the way that we've been taught over time. And so communication in that situation, I know for my wife and I, the pressure that she feels or that what she felt coming up and what I feel are completely different. (17:58): And so sometimes we'll look at a problem or something like that and have different thoughts on it, but it's because of our background and I think it's the way that we were kind of trained as young individuals coming into who we are today. Bree Katulak (18:09): So I'm going to flip the question now. What do you think women, or maybe you've experienced this with your wife or your daughters, what do you think they misunderstand about the pressure that men or young adult boys carry? Jason Ulm (18:23): I think that the misunderstanding is that as a female, the male role traditionally in the family is leader. That's kind of what we would expect as the leader and there's a pressure to provide, to accumulate, to win, to be successful, also to be the best dad, also to be the best husband, also to be all of those different things. And there's all of those pressures at any given time something has to give. And that's when I talked a litle bit about at the beginning, it's what's most important right now. So what's the most important thing today? What's the most important thing tomorrow? Those pressures come and how are we going to deal with those? It's difficult not being a male and not having growing up in society being taught that if you don't produce, if you don't attain, if you don't win, then you're a failure. (19:18): And that's primarily driven into us at a young age. It's hard for females to understand and just like the same way. It's very, very similar, very different for us to understand from the female mindset what that pressure means to them because of the pressures that they've had growing up over time as well. Bree Katulak (19:35): Absolutely. And that's why it's so important to have that collective view in the room, right? Jason Ulm (19:39): Yeah. Ultimately in my thoughts, the reason that we have a spouse is to be someone that can be a counterbalance to us. Bree Katulak (19:48): Exactly. Jason Ulm (19:48): And certainly can tell over our times there were opportunities where our kids had some issues and I would be a little bit upset and my wife would be really chill and there'd be some opportunities where my wife would be really upset and I'd be very chill. And so it was really great that we could work as a team and have an opportunity to coach without having to do it through anger in some cases. Bree Katulak (20:08): Have your kids told you openly if they prefer going to you or to mom for specific issues? Jason Ulm (20:15): 100%. Yeah, yeah, 100%. But I would say not even specific issues, that's actually a really good ... I haven't thought of it that way, but yes, they certainly will come to me for tactical and practical things when they want to go and get something like, "Hey, I want to go shopping or buy this, whatever." They always go to my wife because she's a pushover. And so mom just says yes because she wants to go shopping too. Dad's like, "Why are we doing this? We have two of those things. Why would we do this? " And so I walk through and the brilliance of that, and this is something I think is interesting is my kids will come and say, "Hey, I want to get new X, this new shoes or whatever the case." I'm like, "Well, you've got nice pairs of shoes and you take care of them. (20:53): Well, I want to do this. " And I grew up as someone that paid for a lot of those things on my own. I had to make sure things lasted as long as possible and obviously providing for your kids now is a little different than the way I grew up. And so we go through this whole process of like, is this a want or a need and all that kind of stuff. And so my younger kids will come up and go, "I don't care if it's a want or a need or whatever. I just want to go to mom. I want a new shirt." And so, okay. So mom will go say yes. So yes, they do choose some cases based on what it is they're trying to acquire or get with what they're looking for. Bree Katulak (21:25): I think that's the favorite thing that I've learned this year is that our kids are very strategic about who they go to for what, and I saw it way differently than they did and that was kind of eye-opening. I love that. So what does being unstoppable mean to you in both your work and your personal life? Jason Ulm (21:45): Unstoppable doesn't mean that I am going to break through any barrier at any particular situation, but what it means is I'm not going to give up. And so from a family perspective and from a work perspective, there are objectives. Those objectives are different based on life of a family and a business, but the objectives are important. And when we've set those objectives in place, whether it's modeling for my kids, I'm not going to give up. Whether it's something at work that we're trying to achieve, I'm not going to give up. But to take that even a little bit further, when you are raising kids, for example, there will be seasons of lives when you're speaking into a child and you think that that child in no way, shape or form is hearing you because of their actions that they have during that particular time. And I could share some stories that are very interesting there. (22:37): And so when you're doing that, you'll end up finding that you'll get some outside counsel from time to time and that council will be interesting. It'll be usually fairly different than maybe what you're thinking sometimes or similar, but you have to make that decision. But what I'll tell you is if you stop doing the actions and having those conversations and doing those things and stop loving no matter what, especially with your kids, then who knows what would happen. But I can tell you if you continue to do those things in some situations they come back around and you hear them talk now, they were hearing you during those times, but they weren't particularly modeling what you were saying because they weren't ready to do it. And in work, it's very similar. At the end of the day, you'll do some actions and you'll run up against a wall, you're like, "Man, this is not working." But it's a process and you have to continue to work the process and eventually you'll punch through and continue to do things and make some changes. (23:30): And that's where I think some of the success lies. So that's kind of how I think of it. Bree Katulak (23:33): I completely agree with you and it really resonated with me when you said that because I think this applies to both business and your personal life, but people need to understand, they can't just be told to do something, right? They need to understand what's in it for me, how is this ultimately going to impact my world and my life? And then they need that buy-in and understanding the why to be able to unlock that, yes, I understand I'm going to drive forward on that. What is one of those key stories or takeaways that you referenced before? Jason Ulm (24:07): My 22-year-old son went through a really rough time during high school. We kind of sought some guidance from some individuals in different places and we got some guidance to say, "Hey, look, this kid needs tough love, you probably need to kick him out. " Then literally this is the kind of conversation that we're having with people. And I ended up, I talked to a friend of mine, co-founder of the phone company that I worked for for years and he said to me, he said, "Hey, look," he goes, "That kid's in your house and that kid is around, even though they're not doing the right things, you need to love that child more than anything you possibly can do because if you don't, who knows what's going to happen? Who knows what the future's going to be, but you need to make sure you put all energy and effort into doing those things and speaking life into that kiddo." That kid's 22, he's doing great, contributor to society, works in Carmel, is a terrific young man, very, very smart. (24:58): He is a terrific individual. He looks a lot like his dad, so sorry about that, but he's smart like his mom, which is really good. But he came back around and if you talk to him today, you wouldn't know that he went through that type of a journey, but ultimately it's made him who he is and because we didn't give up, I don't want to say that we did anything special, but we loved our kid through all of that. If I were going to tell someone to do something, there'll be times when you feel like that love is not returned in life, but ultimately it's still the right thing to do and that's what you have to persevere through that because that season will change and eventually something will come and if good is going to come, you have to put effort into it. Bree Katulak (25:42): Absolutely. I could not agree more. And it's interesting the two drastically different pieces of advice that you received from the council and I'm sure you and your wife had to wrestle with a lot on how you were going to proceed. Jason Ulm (25:55): We did. And when you seek counsel, whether it's in business, life, family, whatever the case is, you're going to get people's opinions and you're going to get their thoughts. And in some cases they've been through a similar situation, sometimes they haven't. Sometimes their background will lead you to do something different based on what they've known or whatever the case is. But this is something I talk about with my kids. Look, you can go get counsel from a lot of different folks and find a lot of different information. You can find things online, you can find things from friends, but ultimately you have to do the research and you have to choose. That to me, I think is the message. My wife and I did research, gathered data, we sat down, we chose, and this is the path we wanted to take as we thought it was the right thing. (26:37): And so we made that decision. One way or another was either going to be right, it's going to be wrong, it's whatever the case is, but we'd be able to defend it because we had done that research and said, "This is why I'm standing to do this. " Kids, same thing. That's what we talk about with them. You can't just listen to somebody and say, "Oh, well, this is the gospel truth. Perhaps maybe we should go this path." No, you need to be able to defend it. Even so much, one of my kiddos, middle kid, she's terrific, very artistic and a very, very sharp young lady, graduated high school a full year early, but our views on the world dramatically different. Disagree on 90% of it, but respectful to both of each other because I'm not trying to change her mind. She's not trying to change mind. (27:16): We do like to educate each other. So we won't get into a conversation without having our ducks in a row because generally both of us know a little bit about what we're talking about, but we also won't bring something to the table where we haven't edted that information. And so it's a terrific conversation out of love and respect even if we disagree with some of the things that we're talking about. That I think is also something for people just to consider. Again, five kids, all five different personalities, one is similar to me, the other four are not. And the middle kiddo, again, we don't see the world the same, but we're able to be with each other, have fun with each other because we're not trying to change each other's opinions. We just like to make sure we both understand and we agree and we have mutual respect. Bree Katulak (28:04): And I appreciate so much that you're teaching your kids critical thinking and to question things, not take everything at face value like a lot of people do today because there's that instant gratification, but to do your research to fact check, to make sure the information you're receiving is accurate and formulate your own opinion. I love that. That's amazing. So men and women in general, do you think that men are taught from an early age to be unstoppable? I love language, so I'm going to have some nuanced words here. Do you think they're taught to be unstoppable or just taught to be unbreakable? Because I do feel, and feel free to disagree with me because obviously I'm a woman, not a man, but I feel like a lot of pressure is put on men to suppress your emotions in general. Jason Ulm (28:55): And actually my answer to that is very short. It's unbreakable and it's because we're taught to suppress not process. So you have some emotion when you're a kid and you, whatever the case is, okay, just stuff that away. You don't need to think about it. It's over, whatever the case is, rub dirt on it, you'll be fine, those types of things and you move forward. And so those things begin to bottle up and when we put pressure on ourselves and at some point it's going to explode. But I 100% think that we are taught to be unbreakable and it's because we're taught to suppress and not process our thoughts. Bree Katulak (29:31): So what do you think the difference is then between strength and emotional shutdown or suppression? Jason Ulm (29:39): So I think strength is the ability to feel and choose so that I'm going to feel something and then choose perhaps how I'm going to respond or react. I think shutdown is avoiding and in some cases we tend to numb. And so if I'm going to shut myself down, I'm probably going to Find a way to numb that particular thought. And that could be chemical. It could be different things, but we're going to find something to replace that and we're going to numb that from a shutdown perspective. Bree Katulak (30:12): So I guess you personally then, have you ever felt that pressure to suppress or carry something silently and how did you overcome that? Jason Ulm (30:21): Yeah, I would say I'm still doing it. And I would think that just growing up youngest of three boys and had a little bit of a different experience than my older brothers, I was a little bit maybe less thought of. I raised myself a little when I was younger. And so I was kind of on my own and sharing something with others was kind of downplayed or wasn't really ever ... I don't think anybody ever took a thought of caring about what I was sharing with them. And so ultimately I just made the decision, okay, it looks like that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that there's an issue that I need some help with. I just need to figure it out on my own. And so if you look now 28 years later, married my high school sweetheart, if we ever have an issue in general, it's probably something that I'm holding inside and not sharing with her. (31:18): And it could be something silly, whatever small. And then in general, here's what I find. I share that with my wife. She understands and we move forward pretty quickly and it probably could have been something, if I just would've came out and said this, I would've avoided a couple of issues. Early in our marriage certainly was something that was more challenging than it is today. 28 years later, it comes out a little bit faster. But yeah, but I think that that's something that I'm still working on and it's something my wife actually does really well and that's something that she's taught our kids really well that, hey, when they're little, use your words, let's have a conversation, explain what's going on, let's see how we can help. And she's always approached it as how can we help as opposed to, oh, you shouldn't feel this way, or this isn't important. (32:10): Well, it was important to them at that time. Right. Bree Katulak (32:12): That's an important shift. Jason Ulm (32:14): It is. And get a chance to imprint on those situations where that was an important thing to them. In the giant scheme of thing, when they're 24 years old, they're not going to remember what the little thing was, but they're going to remember what mom said during that time and it was very consistent over the years. And so she's way better at than I am. So she's been training me for a long time now. Bree Katulak (32:35): That's interesting too. Do you feel like you referenced almost raising yourself and being a little bit, I'm going to call it being a loner, but feel free to correct me. And now today when I look at you, you are a master connector and you I think share your story very well, but hear other stories very well. Do you think that early experience that you had in your upbringing drove you towards that type of relationship building? Jason Ulm (33:06): I think the answer to that's yes. I've written some things about people's stories and everybody's stories matter and those types of things. I think the genesis of that was I didn't believe my story mattered and I didn't believe that someone would want to hear the story of Jason. And so what I sought out to do probably, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago was to say, okay, when I meet people, I want to get to know them. I don't know where they are. I don't know who they are. And the biggest change that I made early in my career, I was Jason, the VP of sales of this company. This is what we do. That's what I would say when I would meet somebody. I completely flipped it around and I said, "Okay, I'm Jason, husband of one, father of five, whatever the case was at the time, of course it was two, three. (33:55): And I happened to be in technology maybe is what I might've said at the end of that introduction. One, it took people and it blew them back. They're like, whoa, wait a second. This is a networking event. This guy's talking about who he is, not what he does. Whew, this is crazy. That was one change that I made. And then the other change, which is hilarious, when you see this in practice, it's fricking funny. So I started to make a change when people would ask me, Jason, how are you doing? I always say marvelous. And so I say marvelous because nobody says marvelous. Everybody says fine. They'll put shoulders down. I'm fine. And I say marvelous. No matter what, I put my shoulders up, I'm ready to have a conversation. Here's how it works in application. You're walking into Walmart, you buy some stuff, you go up to checkout. (34:43): Checkout person says, Hey, how are you doing? I say marvelous. They say, oh my gosh, nobody ever says that. Now here's the fun part. You hear a kid somewhere in line, one of my kids go, oh yeah, my dad always says marvelous because it says I'm ready for a conversation and it starts conversations. Ha ha. Now he's going to talk to you. That's hilarious because I've done a million times in front of them and they've seen it play out to where now we know the checkout people, the places we go. Darryl's, the guy at ALDI, wife and I go shopping every Saturday morning. We know Darrell. He's there for years. How did that conversation start? I said marvelous one day. He like, dude, I never hear that. Those things are certainly different. But it also, if you think about it, if you're a little bit of a loner or maybe a little bit someone wants to kind of protect themselves, what do you do? (35:35): You get other people to talk and you don't talk yourself. And so it's a little bit of a protection mechanism I think as well. Bree Katulak (35:42): Interesting. Well, and I'm going to just give you a lot of props here because the first time I met you, I had those exact same thoughts of no one wants to hear my story. I'd been thinking about starting a podcast for two to three years and you were like, "Do it. You have a story to tell and you were a major motivating factor for me reaching out, signing with the production company and moving forward. So you have an impact more than you know. So okay, you have daughters and there are a lot of women and men listening to this podcast. So what advice would you give to women that are listening who want to better understand the men in their lives without taking responsibility for becoming a fixer or trying to fix them? Because I feel like that's something a lot of women try to take on. Jason Ulm (36:35): I think you have to create, and again, my wife models this well, you have to create space. You don't want to try to create solutions. And so I think you have to give individuals space to be able to come to some thoughts on their own and then they'll be able to get down a path. If you come with a solution early on, it tends to get people to kind of give you the Heisman. And so in that situation, and I think probably not all, but in many cases, I think men will open up when they don't feel like someone's trying to fix them, but I think that or maybe manage them in some cases, again, just based on some of the upbringing, I think they open up more when they fee like they're just given space to be able to share. Bree Katulak (37:22): Am I also hearing you say stay genuinely curious too? Jason Ulm (37:27): 100%. I think curiosity is one of the best skills people could learn. People say," Well, you're naturally curious. "Eh, I don't think so. I think you can learn how to be curious. And I think you can ask questions and generally care and it allows you to have empathy for folks and all those other different types of things. I think the other piece too that I think could be really important is a level of respect. So I talked about my daughter, my middle kiddo, she's going to be 20 at the end of this month, which is hard to believe. And so we have a level of respect and from respect we can have conversation around just about anything, but it starts with that level of respect. If you can be respectful, not try to be a fixer and also just be someone who is naturally curious, who wants to hear what somebody has to share, generally listen and take in. (38:17): One of the things I do with my kids, I'm a fixer. You got a problem, I can fix it. You need something built, I can build it. I mean, I can do those types of things. So when my kids will come to me, I will ask them, especially the older ones, look, are you coming to me to share something that you just want to share to get off your chest or you just want somebody to listen or do you want me to respond with what I think I might do in this situation or give you some coaching? Now, I wish I'd have done that when they were really young. I didn't. I just tried to fix everything. But at the end of the day, that is a great thing to say and it allows your kid to think about what they're actually wanting in return. Bree Katulak (38:53): And going back to your previous comment about curiosity can be learned. I wholeheartedly agree with that statement because I feel like one of the scripts that I was given or that I made up in my head coming out of college was I had to know everything. I was only valuable if I knew everything already, but I think we all know when you graduate college and enter the workforce, you know nothing. And asking those questions, that's how true leadership works. They're the most curious person in the room. They know how to ask the right questions to get the thoughts, the best thoughts and answers out of the people in the room who are the subject matter experts. I really do believe that to be true. Jason Ulm (39:34): I agree. And I think it was Bezos said that he never speaks first in a meeting. The reason is when he speaks in general, you don't know what other people are going to say. You're not getting their best thoughts because they feel like they need to support the boss. And so he always kind of speaks last and he gets an opportunity to hear everybody's actual input before he actually provides his. And I think you're right. I think that leaders realize that their value isn't necessarily knowing all the answers. It's helping others go get to those things that they're trying to find and helping elevate those folks. If you can do that, you have a better team, better teams win. Bree Katulak (40:13): Absolutely every time. So what is, I guess, one script that you hope the next generation of men feels honestly free to rewrite that you maybe grew up with? Jason Ulm (40:26): I would say that your worth is who you are. What you happen to produce is just an expression, one expression of that, but it makes up who you are. It's part of it, but it isn't the only thing. I think that's something that I wish folks would know because I think it's the inverse that we're taught. We're taught that who you are is exactly what you've produced, what you've achieved and that's part of it, but it certainly isn't all of it. And you have the ability and I think you have the responsibility for yourself to go out and create what you'd like to have and what you're producing is part of it, but it's not the whole thing. Bree Katulak (41:04): I think that is very well said because I think that's the outcome and all of the work you put into it and knowing who you are and driving towards that's who you really are. That's fantastic. Awesome. Well, this was a fantastic conversation. I've gotten a lot of things that I want to start implementing into my life. I'll come up with a new word. I won't steal marvelous, but I want to give that a shot and start introducing myself a little differently at networking events. That'll be fun. Jason Ulm (41:33): Yeah, you'll see. Just try it. Anybody can try that. And I'll tell you that it has to do with your posture as well, shoulders up, face forward, paying attention to them, not looking over the shoulder to see who else might be in the room, but paying attention to that particular individual and being where your feet are, I think that would be terrific. It'll be great to see you do that in the future. I'd like to have you report back and see how you've done. Bree Katulak (41:54): I will for sure. Thank you so much for your time today, Jason. I hope you are completely spoiled on Father's Day and I appreciate your time. Jason Ulm (42:03): Thank you so much, Bree. Congratulations on the podcast. I wish you continued success and I know you got to knock it out of the park. Thanks for having me on. Bree Katulak (42:10): Thanks. All right, that was a fantastic conversation with Jason and I have so many takeaways that I want to implement in my own life, but I do have a challenge for you over the next two weeks. I want you to take a step back and truly ask yourself, whose definition of success am I actually living by? Because somewhere along the way, many of us have inherited a script, whether it was from our parents, from society, from social media, from the culture or environment that we grew up in, we've inherited one and often we don't even realize that we're following it. For women, that script may look like you can have it all. For men, it may sound like provide for your family, be strong, don't struggle, keep going. And while those scripts sound different and use different language, the pressure underneath all of it is surprisingly similar. (43:11): What I love most about the conversation that we just had is that it really does remind me of something important. Strength and silence are not the same thing and success that looks good from the outside but costs you your peace, your health, your relationships, and even your identity isn't really success at all. So this week I want you to notice the pressure that you're carrying, but you're not allowed to judge it, you're not allowed to immediately fix it. Just notice it and then ask yourself, is this expectation actually mine or is it one that I inherited? Because becoming unstoppable is about having the courage to define success for yourself even if it looks different than what the world expected of you. So maybe that means slowing down. Maybe it means opening up. Maybe it means becoming more ambitious or maybe it means being more present, but whatever it ends up being and whatever conclusion you make, it should actually belong to you. (44:25): And I think the people who truly become unstoppable aren't the ones who perfectly perform the role that they were handed, but they're the ones brave enough to rewrite it altogether. This is your life. Define it, live it, become unstoppable. (44:44): Thank you for listening to Unstoppable You. If this episode was helpful, I'd love to know. Connect with me on LinkedIn at Bree Katulak. That's K-A-T-U-L-A-K on LinkedIn and shoot me a message. This show is for you. Be Unstoppable. I'll see you next time.