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The science behind fear with Dr. Fuz Rana & Faith vs fear · Karl and Crew

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S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
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S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome
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S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined delivering
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S1: the truth daily.
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S2: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available.
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S2: And you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
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S2: that would make it worth it.
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S3: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
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S3: the life source, which is God.
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S4: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
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S4: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
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S4: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
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S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
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S1: and Crew.
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S2: I avoided field trips a lot when I was in
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S2: elementary school, middle school, high school. Really, the trips that
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S2: got everybody else excited?
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S3: I was one of those kids. Super excited anytime we
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S3: got an actual class.
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S2: Get out of school. You get to go somewhere that's
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S2: not school. Maybe you get to go to a museum
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S2: or a theme park or really anything. I tried to
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S2: get out of those most of the time.
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S3: Why?
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S2: Well, fear is a funny thing. I didn't fear the
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S2: field trip.
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S3: Okay.
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S2: I feared the school bus.
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S3: Really? Why did you fear the school bus?
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S2: I have, I had and still have a, I don't know,
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S2: I guess a fear of those yellow school buses. It
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S2: dates back to elementary school.
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S3: Mhm.
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S2: This was, I think, the origin. And I'm on the
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S2: back of the bus headed home and a girl at
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S2: the front of the bus, I remember her name. Her
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S2: name was Maria.
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S3: Okay.
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S2: Maria wasn't feeling well that day. I think you know
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S2: where this is going.
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S3: I think I do.
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S2: Maria really wasn't feeling well. I don't want to get
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S2: graphic here. Maria threw up on the school bus.
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S3: Did she include others in her?
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S2: You know. And so I from that day forward.
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S3: Yeah.
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S2: I associated being on one of those yellow school buses.
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S3: Yeah.
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S2: With somebody getting sick.
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S3: Okay. A confined space where someone's, uh, very visibly getting sick.
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S2: Is probably one of my most, my strongest phobias, if
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S2: you will. Sure. Is being an enclosed space where somebody
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S2: gets sick.
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S3: Okay. So it's, it really is a combination. Yeah. It's
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S3: not in and of itself the school bus.
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S2: So it's not like if I see a school bus,
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S2: a big yellow school bus driving down the street.
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S3: You run the other direction.
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S2: I go into a panic.
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S3: Yeah.
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S2: But like, when I have to chaperone my kids field
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S2: trips and I've done a couple of them.
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S3: Sure.
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S2: Like, I'll meet you guys there.
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S3: I'm driving separate.
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S2: Getting on. It feels like being in just a tube
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S2: of grossness and you can't get off. And it really
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S2: did something to me.
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S3: I mean, it's a real phobia.
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S2: It's a phobia. And so the fear of someone getting
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S2: sick in a closed space, that's what school buses started
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S2: to represent for me. Gotcha. So every time there was
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S2: going to be a field trip, and I knew that
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S2: we were going to have to take a yellow school bus,
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S2: that's all I could think about was, what if somebody
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S2: gets sick? And the thing is, in elementary school and
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S2: middle school, I feel like it happens a lot. I
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S2: don't know what it is, but I feel like kids
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S2: are always throwing up on the bus.
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S3: And I took a bus all my life, and I
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S3: don't think I saw one person throw.
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S2: On a school. I don't know what it is. It's
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S2: just it's an unpredictable age where kids don't have a
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S2: lot of warning. And so I feel like I just
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S2: have horror stories.
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S3: Of like.
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S2: Sitting in class and someone's throwing up and you're walking
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S2: in the hallway and it just, I know.
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S3: It's.
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S2: 6:00 central time, at least in the morning, and that's
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S2: not what you want to be hearing. But fear does
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S2: something to you. Fear of being in the school bus
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S2: made me avoid a lot of really fun things. And
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S2: so I'm curious now that I've shared with you my
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S2: totally irrational, yet deeply rooted fear, do you have one
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S2: of those? Maybe a phobia, maybe something that just. Boy
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S2: oh boy. Freaks you out. You scared of heights? Do
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S2: you jump out of your skin when you see a spider?
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S2: My mom can't even see snakes on TV.
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S3: Really?
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S2: Oh my goodness.
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S3: Wow.
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S2: She can't like a picture of a snake sends her.
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S3: Can't do it.
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S2: Do you have any of those?
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S3: I mean, for me, we always joke about it with it,
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S3: with it being like specifically dolphins on the show because
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S3: we were gonna on my honeymoon, my wife and I
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S3: were gonna swim with the dolphins. We didn't end up
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S3: doing it, not because of my fear, but because we
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S3: weren't able to. But I was genuinely afraid of swimming
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S3: with the dolphins. Okay. And it's not dolphins in and
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S3: of itself. It is swimming in the water with with
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S3: fish or sea creatures. Uh, okay. I don't I'm not
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S3: afraid of them, like looking at them. I can look
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S3: at them. I can see them. All that stuff's fine.
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S3: I don't like being in the same body of water
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S3: as them.
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S2: Not knowing what they might do.
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S3: Yeah, well, it's. I'm in there. I'm in their home turf.
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S3: I I'm swimming. Ultimately, I'm pretty powerless to do anything
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S3: while swimming.
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S2: Upper hand.
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S3: They can do anything they want while swimming. Uh, that's
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S3: what they do. They swim. And and so being in
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S3: the ocean is pretty difficult for me. Okay, I can
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S3: do it if I'm if I can really get distracted.
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S3: But if I start thinking too much about it, I
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S3: don't want to be there.
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S2: We listen and we don't judge.
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S3: Yeah. Thank you.
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S2: What is your, um. Maybe. Strange. We'll go with strange. Unusual. Okay.
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S2: A little bit irrational fear. Are you willing to share
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S2: with us this morning? We'll do text messages only. I
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S2: don't want to put anyone on the spot on the phone, but, uh,
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S2: what is that fear for you? 800. 555, 7898, 805 5578, 98.
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S1: He was running from God, but God's love brought him home.
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S1: Carl is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on
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S1: Moody Radio.
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S2: What is it that gets you afraid? Maybe that irrational thing,
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S2: that boy, oh, boy. Everybody else seems okay with this,
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S2: but I kind of freak out. 805 557898. The fear
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S2: of someone being sick on a school bus. Boy oh boy.
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S2: That kept me from so many fun trips during my
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S2: younger years. I just couldn't do it. The risk felt
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S2: too high so I would opt out. What about you?
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S2: Ferris wheel says 1288. Revolving doors 11714606. Giant spiders. Same
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S2: for 5648. Fear of flying frogs. Wow. My teeth crumbling.
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S3: That's a dream that people have.
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S2: Yeah, I've had the dreams of my teeth falling out.
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S2: That's a reoccurring dream. Uh. The fear of a bridge
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S2: crumbling as I drive over it. I've had that one before. Uh,
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S2: fear of toothbrushes.
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S3: Other people's toothbrushes in specific. Even the sight of them
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S3: fears them out.
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S2: Fear of driving on the highway. Especially when there's those
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S2: brick dividers that make the space feel too close.
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S3: Oh, yeah, I can see that.
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S2: Yeah. Where you feel like you're kind of claustrophobia. Yeah. Wow.
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S2: Fear of running into a spider web. Yeah. That feeling,
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S2: and I'm not going to describe it because I don't
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S2: want to trigger anything for people.
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S3: But.
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S2: Not a pleasant feeling. No. You know, you think about
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S2: the big categories of the things that people fear most.
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S2: And big surveys show kind of some big buckets. Obviously death,
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S2: public speaking heights. But also here's a couple of others
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S2: that surveys show that are common fears for a lot
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S2: of people financial insecurity, serious illness, a fear of failure,
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S2: fear of rejection or loneliness, the loss of loved ones,
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S2: fear of natural disasters depending on what part of the
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S2: country you live in. There's probably a specific type of
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S2: natural disaster that you maybe fear more than others. I
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S2: grew up in the Midwest, so tornadoes were the thing that.
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S3: Makes a ton of sense.
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S2: Yeah. But if you live where it's hurricanes or maybe
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S2: it's earthquakes. Dangerous animals.
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S3: Yep. There's plenty of those.
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S2: Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing is I feel like
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S2: a lot of times it's the non-dangerous animals that are.
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S3: That do more of the creeping out.
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S2: I mean, like spiders, obviously the poisonous ones. But for
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S2: the most part, spiders are pretty harmless.
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S3: Well, and for most areas you're gonna, there's way more
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S3: of a chance you're actually gonna encounter a very harmless
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S3: spider than you're gonna encounter a very dangerous one.
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S2: You live in a big city, you might fear like rats,
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S2: even though they're cockroaches. Ooh. Roller coasters. Fear of anesthesia
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S2: being put. Being put under for a procedure.
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S3: I don't blame you for that one. I don't blame.
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S2: You. We're not. We're we're listening. And we're not judging.
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S3: I'm not judging. I'm saying I don't blame you, but
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S3: that means I'm in support.
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S2: Okay. So you're. That means you're giving credit. Like most
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S2: more certain fears are more valid than others, which we
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S2: don't want to do. Coming up, an interesting, interesting discovery.
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S2: This was a couple years ago when I first noticed
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S2: this in Scripture. And I come back to it often,
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S2: and I want to share it with you. Something that
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S2: I discovered about fear, what we fear and what we don't.
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S2: Coming up.
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S1: Take your next step with Jesus today. You're listening to
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S1: cast and crew.
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S2: What you fear most reveals a lot about you, but
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S2: so does what you do not fear. OU want to
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S2: read to you a passage of Scripture. This comes out
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S2: of Isaiah eight, and the first time I read this
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S2: stopped me in my tracks. I'll give you a little
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S2: bit of context. So the Lord is revealing to the
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S2: prophet Isaiah about the coming invasion of Assyria. This is
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S2: his hand of judgment. Because of the rebellion of the people.
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S2: The people refused the faithful care of God. And so
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S2: they're going to face judgment. But he gives Isaiah a
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S2: little bit of a warning. So let me read to you,
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S2: this is I'm reading to you in the New Living Translation,
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S2: just because I think for the listening ear, it makes
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S2: it a little bit easier to catch the main, the
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S2: main idea here, Isaiah eight, verse 11, starting with verse 11, says,
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S2: the Lord has given me a strong warning not to
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S2: think like everyone else does. He said, don't call everything
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S2: a conspiracy like they do and don't live in dread
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S2: of what frightens them. Make the Lord of heaven's Armies
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S2: holy in your life. He is the one you should fear.
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S2: He is the one who should make you tremble. He
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S2: will keep you safe. But to Israel and Judah he
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S2: will be a stone that makes people stumble, a rock
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S2: that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem,
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S2: he will be a trap and a snare. Want to
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S2: key in on this part? Don't call everything a conspiracy
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S2: like they do. Don't live in dread of what frightens them.
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S2: Make the Lord of heaven's Armies holy in your life.
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S2: He is the one who you should fear. When we
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S2: think about the things that scare us the most, the
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S2: fear of the Lord is a protection in so many ways. Yes,
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S2: and the absence of the fear of the Lord contributes
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S2: to man's undoing. Every time you think about all of
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S2: the verses that instruct us to fear God, to have
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S2: a holy, reverent fear and awe of who he is,
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S2: of his power, of his authority, of his position in
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S2: our life. But yet, for most people, the things that
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S2: make them the most afraid are many other things.
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S3: The things on this earth.
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S2: The things of this earth. And so I find this fascinating.
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S2: And I want to read you one more kind of
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S2: related passage. This is in Matthew 1028. The context is
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S2: a little bit different, but the big idea says, don't
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S2: be afraid of those who want to kill your body.
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S2: They cannot touch your soul. Fear only God who can
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S2: destroy both soul and body in hell. Here's the thing.
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S2: Here's what the moody Bible commentary says about this, that
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S2: to fear God for those who fear the Lord God
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S2: will be a refuge. But for those who refuse to
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S2: trust him, God will be their undoing. When you fear God,
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S2: he becomes your protection, your refuge, your safe place. When
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S2: you do not fear him, you are left vulnerable not
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S2: only to everything else, but he ultimately becomes your own
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S2: own undoing. It's kind of this interesting paradox, right?
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S3: Yes.
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S2: That to fear him is protection. To not fear him
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S2: makes you more vulnerable than ever.
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S3: Because in our fear, this isn't like a go cower
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S3: in the corner because he's unpredictable. No. Type of thing.
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S3: This is a. I look at him and I recognize
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S3: how awesome and holy he is. And it makes me
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S3: fear doing anything that's apart from him.
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S2: So for Judah and Jerusalem, they are wringing their hands,
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S2: as one commentator said over the crisis of the day,
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S2: while not in any way seeing the greatness of God.
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S2: And I think, how true is that of people today?
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S2: We are prone to wringing our hands over the latest
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S2: problem in government, the latest crisis of whatever you know,
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S2: the mainstream news cycle will always give you something that
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S2: feels scary.
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S3: Absolutely. The wars, the diseases, the financial crisis.
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S2: The threat.
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S3: Of.
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S2: Anything.
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S3: Yes.
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S2: And so many people walk around with a lot of
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S2: fear in their heart.
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S3: 100%.
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S2: What if the economy collapses? What if natural disaster hits?
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S2: What if sickness hits my home? What if this, what
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S2: if that? What if this. But yet no awareness of God.
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S2: When you don't fear God, he becomes your undoing. Yeah.
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S2: Think about that for a second. And the first time
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S2: I read this, I just. It just made me stop
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S2: because I thought the problem isn't that all of these
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S2: things in the world feel so scary. The problem is
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S2: that we don't fear God, and that's revealed in so
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S2: many different ways. You know, I think about the way
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S2: that people talk about God, the lack of reverence for
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S2: the name of Jesus, the flippant way, the casual way
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S2: that we've kind of reduced him to, you know, the
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S2: big guy upstairs, right? We think, wait a second, you
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S2: don't fear God. The absence of the fear of God
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S2: should terrify you today. And I say that in real love.
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S2: Fear the Lord. Everything else becomes a whole lot less scary.
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S1: Your spiritual pit stop to keep you going in the race.
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S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
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S2: You know the fear of the Lord is spoken about
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S2: all throughout Scripture. The fear of the Lord is the
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S2: beginning of wisdom, which means that the absence of the
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S2: fear of the Lord is the source of foolishness. Right?
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S3: Yeah. We can always reverse engineer these truths.
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S2: And so when you see, when you find your heart
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S2: gripped with fear. And I say this as somebody who
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S2: has struggled mightily with my share of fear and anxiety.
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S2: We want to start to train ourselves to reset on
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S2: the fear of the Lord. It right sizes everything else
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S2: because a healthy fear of the Lord sees God for
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S2: who he is, meaning that everything else has to bow, right?
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S3: We know that.
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S2: Because of Christ, death has been defeated. Yeah, well, we
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S2: don't have to fear death.
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S3: Yep.
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S2: We know that because of Christ, he has the victory
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S2: over sin, over iniquities, over illness and disease.
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S3: Yes. I was thinking, you know, I, I preached a
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S3: sermon this last week and Romans eight two was a
17:35
S3: part of it. And it says, because through Jesus Christ,
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S3: the law of the spirit who gives life has set
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S3: you free from the law of sin and death. And
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S3: I was looking at this passage, and John Piper talked
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S3: about this in a sermon he did where the word
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S3: law here, uh, can be translated to power and authority.
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S3: So the power and authority of the spirit of life
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S3: has set us free from the power and authority of
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S3: sin and death. We are no longer under that power
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S3: and authority that had control over us, but the spirit
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S3: who gives life. And so we don't have to fear
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S3: death and the things that bring death, because we're not
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S3: under that power and authority anymore.
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S2: We're no longer slaves to fear.
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S3: Mhm.
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S2: One of my one of my favorite songs, no longer
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S2: Slaves to Fear. But I am a child of God.
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S2: And so when people don't fear God, the irony is
18:35
S2: that they're actually subject to the wrath of God. Yes.
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S2: that it not fearing God becomes their undoing. And so
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S2: you think about the tragedy of spending a whole lifetime
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S2: fearing the wrong things. You know, maybe you're the provider
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S2: of your household, so you fear financial collapse. You play
18:55
S2: pay close attention to the stock market. And hey, there's
18:58
S2: nothing wrong with that. Certainly not. But you're constantly worried
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S2: about your family's financial future. Or maybe you're constantly worried
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S2: about your about your health. You know, some people, any
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S2: time there's any sort of a anything, there's this, your
19:13
S2: mind goes to the worst case scenario. What if it's this?
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S2: Or what if it's this? Or you live in fear
19:18
S2: of the the rising crime in your area. You're walking
19:22
S2: down the street always looking over your shoulder. All those
19:24
S2: can be very real things. But I want to ask you,
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S2: do you fear the Lord today? Do you fear the
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S2: one who, as Scripture says pretty bluntly, can destroy both
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S2: soul and body in hell, you go, ooh, that sounds
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S2: pretty gruesome. The fear of the Lord is your protection.
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S2: It's a beautiful thing. Check it out. I was in
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S2: Isaiah eight today, 11 through 14.
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S1: Your shot of hope to get you through the day.
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S4: You are so, so loved. God does not want you
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S4: to stay in your past. And I want you to
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S4: know and believe that today.
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S1: You're listening to Carl and crew.
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S2: Doctor John Mabus joining us this morning. He's associate professor
20:08
S2: and program head of pastoral studies here at Moody Bible Institute.
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S2: For the past 14 years, he's served as a Navy chaplain.
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S2: Doctor Mabus, glad to have you with us this morning.
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S2: What have you learned about fear, particularly in the context
20:22
S2: of your role as a Navy chaplain? I'm curious.
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S5: Good morning Ali. Yeah, it's um and fear is something
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S5: that hits us all, even sometimes people that we may consider,
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S5: you know, people that wouldn't deal with fear or the
20:35
S5: strongest kind of people we can have in mind. Some
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S5: of our nation's warriors are people that have to face
20:41
S5: some pretty challenging things that require courage, a lot of levels. Um,
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S5: but fear hits everybody. And one thing I've learned over,
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S5: over the years is that sometimes fear surprises us. Things
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S5: that we didn't think would maybe cause us to fear
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S5: can hit us. Um, we didn't realize it would fear
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S5: can hit us in many different ways. Like it could
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S5: hit me socially. It could be physically. Mhm. And so
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S5: just seeing how even people who the world considers strong
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S5: still have to wrestle with sometimes fears that they never
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S5: thought they would have to. And how do they navigate?
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S5: Those can be really hard, but also a great opportunity
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S5: for the Lord to minister to them.
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S2: Yeah. Talk a little bit about that last part. I
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S2: would imagine that as a Navy chaplain, you do have
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S2: that fear often gives an opportunity or an open door
21:34
S2: for for the gospel. AM I is that a correct assumption?
21:39
S5: Yeah. I mean, it helps us. You know, one of
21:41
S5: the places that I, I often go to just personally,
21:44
S5: but also as a chaplain is the Psalms. And one
21:47
S5: of the great songwriters was David, who was a warrior
21:49
S5: who often talks about how he navigates his fears. And those,
21:54
S5: those Psalms are something that many of the Marines and sailors,
21:59
S5: soldiers that I've worked with really resonate with because they see,
22:03
S5: here's a here's a warrior who has to answer that question,
22:07
S5: where do I go with my fears? And how do I,
22:10
S5: how do I talk about those? How do I have
22:13
S5: an awareness of those. And what do they say about me?
22:16
S5: What do they say about God? Um, so it just
22:18
S5: begins to open up conversations that maybe people haven't had
22:21
S5: before because their, their guard is up, which, but when
22:24
S5: we begin to really see those fears, I'm going to
22:27
S5: lay our guard down and say, okay, now I've got
22:29
S5: to ask some bigger questions. Maybe I've been avoiding or
22:31
S5: never even thought about.
22:32
S2: You know, we see so many places in Scripture where
22:35
S2: we're called to, to not be afraid. For the Lord
22:38
S2: your God is with you that we don't have to fear.
22:41
S2: And so there's, you know, we wrestle with the tension
22:43
S2: of we're called to not fear. So when I'm afraid,
22:47
S2: am I, am I sinning against God when I'm afraid?
22:51
S2: Is the goal to live a life that's absent of
22:54
S2: all fear? Is that even possible, this side of heaven?
22:57
S2: What do you say?
22:59
S5: You know, it's interesting. Uh, there must be something about
23:02
S5: fear that is, uh, some of you could say a
23:06
S5: gift from how God made us. Because our bodies, I mean, they,
23:09
S5: they recognize things that could be a danger to us.
23:12
S5: And they, uh, the way the Lord has made us, uh,
23:15
S5: that that kind of gives us a response to those fears.
23:17
S5: And so, uh, the fact that fear is something that
23:21
S5: we experience as we analyze the world around us, um,
23:26
S5: can be a great gift from God. Um, as you
23:28
S5: were talking earlier about the fear of the Lord, well, uh,
23:30
S5: it's a, it's a, it is a muscle that he
23:32
S5: calls us to act with, but to really think about how, uh, what,
23:36
S5: where the object of that fear is and how it's
23:38
S5: shaping what we do. So I wouldn't ever want to
23:41
S5: shame somebody because they say, I'm afraid. Um, but I
23:44
S5: want to help them think through. Okay, well, where's, where's
23:46
S5: that fear coming from? Who, who's, who's controlling that fear,
23:50
S5: so to speak?
23:52
S2: How have you handled your own fear? You know, I mean,
23:55
S2: you've gone to some places in the world that would
23:58
S2: make a lot of people, at least at the very least,
24:01
S2: intimidated where there's a, you know, maybe a heightened threat
24:04
S2: of certain types of danger. How have you confronted fear
24:08
S2: in your own life?
24:09
S5: Yeah, that's a wonderful question. I mean, I think like
24:13
S5: I mentioned earlier, fear can can come in places where
24:17
S5: you would expect it. If it's in a combat zone
24:21
S5: where there's things that may cause physical threat. Um, what,
24:27
S5: how do you handle that? Um, whether that's just physically
24:31
S5: being aware of how your body is responding to that
24:33
S5: physical threat. Um, that's, um, learning how to pray in
24:37
S5: those situations sometimes not very complicated prayers, but simple prayers like, uh,
24:41
S5: Lord help us, you know, um, taking a deep breath
24:44
S5: and just, um, and I find that's interesting, you know, sometimes, um,
24:47
S5: when we're in a place of safety, we may, we
24:50
S5: may have real good and helpful prayers. But sometimes when
24:53
S5: a place of fear, those basic, just short phrases of
24:57
S5: which we take a breath and say, oh, Lord, um,
24:59
S5: I need you to intervene. I don't even know what
25:00
S5: to say, but please help be my refuge. Um, and
25:04
S5: so sometimes just the simple prayers, short prayers, um, thinking
25:08
S5: about how I'm responding. And then one last thing I
25:11
S5: would say is in some of those situations, thinking about
25:13
S5: how that fear is shaping how I interact with those
25:16
S5: around me. Um, and how available am I to them
25:20
S5: versus just kind of going and we could say like
25:22
S5: turtle mode, um, with those fears.
25:25
S2: You know, it's interesting you wear a lot of different hats.
25:28
S2: Obviously you are a professor program head here at Moody
25:31
S2: Bible Institute. I mentioned you're a Navy chaplain. You're also
25:34
S2: a dad of of eight children. AM I correct in that?
25:38
S5: That's right. Yes.
25:39
S2: And one of the things that as a parent and
25:42
S2: particularly in your role as a father, it training your
25:46
S2: children to help respond to the things that make them afraid.
25:51
S2: Whether you have a child who has struggled, maybe with
25:54
S2: some anxiety, we've experienced that in our family or just
25:57
S2: the things that make kids scared. And when you're when
26:00
S2: you're a little person, it feels like the world is
26:03
S2: a scary place. What have you learned in your role
26:06
S2: as a dad? Raising these kids to fear the Lord,
26:10
S2: but to not have an outsized fear of all of
26:13
S2: the other things that can feel scary.
26:15
S5: Right? Yeah, that's you could say that sometimes a daily
26:18
S5: thing that we all walk.
26:19
S6: With, right?
26:20
S5: Uh, thankfully, our Heavenly Father gets that and ministers to
26:25
S5: us and that. So I think that's actually one place
26:27
S5: I've had to start in my own family is, uh, Lord,
26:30
S5: if I'm not attuned to the things that I'm fearing
26:32
S5: and bringing those to you, um, I won't be as, um,
26:36
S5: available for my children as they, as they navigate their fears. Um,
26:40
S5: so learning to regularly bring my own prayer, my prayers of, uh,
26:45
S5: Lord help me or help me, uh, bring you my anxieties. Um,
26:49
S5: whether it's those anxieties for my own children, because sometimes
26:52
S5: our fears as parents actually perpetuate the fears of our
26:56
S5: children if we haven't brought those to the Lord. So
26:58
S5: I would say for me, it's been starting. Okay, Lord,
27:01
S5: what's heavy on my heart so I can bring that
27:03
S5: to you as my Heavenly Father. And now help me to,
27:07
S5: as you minister to me, father, be able to listen
27:10
S5: to their fears. Um, help them just to have a
27:13
S5: safe place to talk about them, whether that's the little
27:15
S5: guy who is afraid of the dark or, you know, literally,
27:18
S5: and who's with me in the dark and little things like, well,
27:21
S5: you know, God's with us in the dark. Uh, your
27:24
S5: brother's in this room with you, you know, helping them
27:26
S5: just be able to express those fears. Yeah, that's so important.
27:29
S5: And language that's age appropriate. And they can understand, um,
27:33
S5: whether it's with a teenager who's expressing fears about social pressure, um,
27:39
S5: or social expectations and talking with them, kind of what
27:43
S5: you guys were talking about earlier about the fear of
27:44
S5: man and how that can be like a snare to us, um,
27:47
S5: and kind of control us. So helping them kind of
27:49
S5: think through and process through. Wow, I realize I did that,
27:52
S5: or I said that because I was really afraid about this.
27:54
S5: I didn't realize that. So sometimes it's those after actions
27:57
S5: we do with our children, um, saying, okay, why did
28:00
S5: this happen? Well, maybe it was, it wasn't so much this,
28:02
S5: it was actually because there was a fear here that
28:04
S5: I wasn't talking through. So sometimes it's late nights, whether
28:07
S5: that's through with a teenager or, uh, a little guy, um,
28:12
S5: often I feel like it's at night that the fears
28:14
S5: start to kind of creep out. And so, um, yeah.
28:18
S2: And, you know, you've heard, I'm sure you've heard that
28:20
S2: fear is contagious and you've experienced that when everybody can
28:24
S2: be in a peaceful moment and then all of a sudden,
28:26
S2: if one person feels afraid, everybody else has a heightened
28:29
S2: sense of, okay, there must be something to be afraid of.
28:32
S2: Is courage contagious as well?
28:35
S5: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, one thing that I mean,
28:38
S5: that's we use courage and it's such a good word.
28:41
S5: It's I was just actually reading with, um, one of
28:44
S5: my sons, uh, Screwtape Letters, um, the other day, and C.S.
28:48
S5: Lewis was talking about courage and, and how it's, it's
28:52
S5: like a, it's a virtue that only the Lord can give.
28:55
S5: And it's one that kind of helps us live all
28:57
S5: the other virtues faithfully when they're being tried. It's kind
29:00
S5: of an interesting way to think about it. Yeah. And
29:02
S5: so courage. Absolutely. Because we begin to see, oh, that
29:08
S5: now I know what it looks like to live that
29:10
S5: virtue out in this hard situation, because I see that
29:13
S5: other person doing it. Sometimes courage is hard for us
29:15
S5: to imagine until we see it in action or hear
29:18
S5: of someone else doing it. And so whether that's physical courage,
29:22
S5: like in combat, where you say, I don't know if
29:24
S5: I can go forward, but you see your buddy go
29:26
S5: forward and you're going to go with them. Yeah. Or
29:29
S5: if it's at a workplace where it takes moral courage
29:32
S5: to stand up for something or to stay true to something,
29:36
S5: even when there could be social consequences, um, that, that
29:41
S5: often we need to do. Uh, not alone, but, but
29:43
S5: with others.
29:44
S2: Doctor John Mabus, our guest this morning. Such a good conversation.
29:48
S2: If you want more about Moody Bible Institute, I mentioned
29:51
S2: he's a program head. Uh, just fantastic professors here at Moody.
29:55
S2: Just text Moody to 805 five, five, 78, 98.
30:00
S1: Your shot of hope to help you through the day.
30:03
S1: This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
30:06
S2: How would you describe how your body feels the moment
30:10
S2: that something makes you feel afraid? Maybe there's no real threat,
30:14
S2: but it's somebody who startles you. You weren't expecting to
30:17
S2: open the door and that person be standing there. You
30:19
S2: hear a loud noise, or you hear a bump in
30:23
S2: the night, and all of a sudden, at least for me,
30:26
S2: the the heart rate starts to go up. You feel
30:28
S2: your heart racing a little bit, your body starts to
30:30
S2: maybe feel a little bit warm. You your thoughts start
30:35
S2: to race. There's certainly a physical response to feeling fear.
30:41
S2: We have a guest who's going to talk about how
30:43
S2: fear impacts our brain. Doctor Faisal Rana. He's been with
30:47
S2: us many times. Doctor fuzz, we affectionately call him. He's
30:50
S2: the president, CEO and senior scholar at reasons to believe
30:53
S2: holds a PhD in chemistry with an emphasis in biochemistry.
30:57
S2: Speaks worldwide at churches conferences. So what happens, doctor fuzz
31:02
S2: in our brain the moment we experience fear?
31:07
S7: Well, you know, the Bible teaches us that human beings
31:10
S7: are fearfully and wonderfully made. And and so as a biochemist,
31:14
S7: when I think about in study human biology, I expect
31:17
S7: to see God's fingerprints, uh, in everything about us as
31:21
S7: human beings. and this is no exception when it comes
31:25
S7: to our fear response. It's an incredibly elegant system that
31:29
S7: is perfectly designed to keep us from harm. And so
31:33
S7: you have a fast reaction to fear and a slow
31:36
S7: reaction to fear. And both of them are working, you know,
31:39
S7: hand in hand. The fast reaction is where sensory input
31:43
S7: goes into the amygdala, and then that if it senses
31:48
S7: some kind of potential threat or danger, like we see
31:51
S7: somebody in the doorway and we're startled, it will trigger
31:55
S7: essentially the central nucleus, which in turn triggers the hypothalamus,
32:01
S7: which releases the stress hormones that cause that famous flight
32:04
S7: or fight reflex. And then we also have information going
32:09
S7: to the brainstem. That's where our reflexes come from. And
32:13
S7: so this is poisoning us to respond to any potential danger.
32:18
S7: But then there's a slow process where the hippocampus, which
32:22
S7: stores memories, contextualizes that fear, drawing memory from past experiences. Oh,
32:28
S7: this is not anything to be worried about. Or yes, indeed,
32:32
S7: this is a real potential threat. Then information goes to
32:36
S7: our prefrontal cortex, which is where our executive function resides,
32:41
S7: where we think about things and we make rational sense about, okay,
32:46
S7: is this really a dangerous situation? What do I do?
32:49
S7: Or this is nothing to be worried about. So this
32:51
S7: is a really incredibly elegant system that allows us to
32:55
S7: respond to, to fear very quickly or threats very quickly
33:01
S7: that initiate a fear response. But then we have the
33:04
S7: time to really make sense. Is this really something to
33:07
S7: be afraid of or not?
33:09
S2: You know, I've never heard it put like that. You're
33:11
S2: describing it as an elegant system because the obviously the
33:15
S2: absence of fear. If you had no ability to experience fear,
33:20
S2: then you would be unprepared to respond to a threat.
33:25
S2: You don't often hear fear talked about in that way,
33:27
S2: because it's almost always talked about in the negative sense,
33:30
S2: because it can cause so many problems. But the fact
33:32
S2: that it's a system designed for our protection is not
33:36
S2: something I'd consider before.
33:38
S7: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, same thing with pain, right?
33:41
S2: Right.
33:42
S7: You know that that we don't like pain. But pain
33:44
S7: is a warning system that something's wrong. And that's the
33:48
S7: way fear should function in a healthy person is that, hey,
33:52
S7: there may be a potential harm here. Oh, nothing to
33:55
S7: worry about. Or yes, indeed, you really need to get
33:58
S7: out of this situation. So it just is God's protective
34:02
S7: mechanism that that is so elegant and sophisticated.
34:06
S2: But obviously, we know that all throughout Scripture we see
34:10
S2: commands to do not be afraid, do not fear, for
34:15
S2: I am with you. I'm going to be strengthening you.
34:18
S2: I'm paraphrasing a number of different verses. One does fear
34:22
S2: move from the. The healthy. This is my body's way
34:26
S2: of protecting me and warning me of a of a
34:28
S2: threat to. What's more, much more commonly experienced in the
34:33
S2: unhealthy version of fear starts to control how I act,
34:37
S2: how I move, how I think, and the decisions that
34:41
S2: I make.
34:42
S7: Yeah. And this is where, you know, a good design
34:45
S7: can go bad. Uh, and, and that is if somebody
34:48
S7: is exposed to, let's say, some kind of acute traumatic event, right?
34:53
S7: Or they are just chronically under stress or chronically exposed
34:58
S7: to dangerous situations, they can actually wind up having unhealthy,
35:04
S7: toxic fear that in which they can't properly respond to
35:10
S7: threats or recognize non threats as being non-threatening, as being non-dangerous.
35:15
S7: And what ends up happening is there are changes that
35:18
S7: take place in the brain. These are called maladaptive changes where,
35:23
S7: for example, the amygdala, which is the alarm center, becomes hyperactive.
35:29
S7: It responds to both threats and non-threatening alike. The hippocampus atrophies,
35:34
S7: it becomes smaller, and you're not able to contextualize the fear.
35:38
S7: You can't properly retrieve and store memories. And it even
35:41
S7: impacts the prefrontal cortex, where the connectivity between the neurons
35:46
S7: becomes a lost. And so this really is leading to
35:51
S7: a change in the brain, so that you now respond
35:54
S7: to everything as if it was a dangerous situation. And
36:00
S7: this is just incredibly unhealthy for a person, both physically
36:04
S7: as well as mentally and spiritually.
36:06
S2: Is that something that you're able to see, like changes
36:09
S2: to the brain of anxiety or fear?
36:12
S7: You can actually see, for example, again, things like the
36:17
S7: hippocampus shrinking in size and things like that. And you
36:21
S7: can measure, uh, neuro activity with the amygdala and the
36:27
S7: prefrontal cortex. So this is all, you know, well understood
36:30
S7: and well documented. And, you know, again, it leads to
36:34
S7: really just, uh, unhealthy situations for people struggling with that.
36:39
S7: And an important thing is that when somebody is experiencing
36:43
S7: chronic fear, unhealthy fear, it's probably not nothing they actually did. Right?
36:50
S7: It's things that have happened to them. We live in
36:53
S7: a broken world. We live in a world where people
36:56
S7: are sinners and and people are responding to really sinful
37:01
S7: situations that are part of a broken world. And as
37:04
S7: a result of that, things go awry in their bodies
37:08
S7: and in God's good design becomes maladaptive.
37:11
S2: It's interesting because you can have the same situation. Let's take.
37:15
S2: Let's take being on a on a flight for. For instance,
37:18
S2: I've been on a couple flights as of late and
37:21
S2: you hit turbulence. So for somebody, I remember the first time,
37:25
S2: my very first flight, I was 17 years old and
37:28
S2: I was going on a trip for a sport and
37:31
S2: hitting some bad turbulence and feeling absolutely terrified. Anybody who
37:36
S2: would have looked at me in that moment would have
37:38
S2: seen the fear. Now that I've got many, many, many
37:41
S2: more flights under my belt, I no longer have that
37:44
S2: sense of fear. But you could have that same flight,
37:47
S2: the same turbulence. And if you look around, you'll have
37:49
S2: people processing it differently, usually based on their experience. Right?
37:55
S2: Can we retrain how we process and how we respond
38:01
S2: to fear?
38:02
S7: Yes. I mean, this is really the good news is
38:04
S7: that when you have, you know, kind of a chronic
38:08
S7: fear that creates essentially changes in the brain, you can
38:12
S7: actually reverse those. And one approach that's commonly used is
38:16
S7: something called cognitive behavioral therapy. Yes. And it's, you know,
38:21
S7: in a nutshell, it's essentially this idea that what you
38:24
S7: think impacts how you feel and how you behave. And
38:28
S7: a lot of times people think about situations in the
38:32
S7: in an untrue, unhealthy way. And so what you're trying
38:35
S7: to do is train them to think about things in
38:39
S7: the appropriate way. And that in turn is going to
38:42
S7: impact how they feel and how they behave. And so conceptually,
38:46
S7: it's a really simple way of retraining the brain, but
38:49
S7: it actually helps to restore the lost brain function or the,
38:54
S7: the maladaptive brain function that results from chronic fear. And
38:59
S7: in many respects, CBT is, is essentially foreshadowed in what
39:04
S7: you see in Scripture where, as you mentioned earlier, do
39:08
S7: not be afraid. That's one of the most common commands
39:10
S7: in Scripture. Yeah. And it always is followed by I
39:14
S7: am the Lord your God. I will never leave you
39:16
S7: or forsake you. Right? Or cast your cares and your
39:20
S7: worries and your anxieties on the Lord, right? It's essentially
39:24
S7: telling you that, uh, that if you train your brain
39:28
S7: to be, to understand what is true about who God is,
39:32
S7: who we are, and, and how much God loves us,
39:36
S7: that gives us that proper, truthful mindset that then impacts
39:41
S7: how we behave and how we feel and think and act.
39:44
S2: You know, the skeptic is going to say, okay, so
39:48
S2: like Scripture, you're telling me that saying a couple of
39:52
S2: scriptures is going to make me not afraid, but anybody
39:56
S2: who's ever experienced their mind being transformed or renewed, going
40:01
S2: to Romans 122 by applying the Word of God over
40:05
S2: time knows that there's there's truth to it. It's not
40:08
S2: just like repeating some sort of mantra, the Word of God,
40:11
S2: living and active, sharper than a double edged sword actually
40:15
S2: has the power to change how we think, right?
40:19
S7: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, and, you know, I, I
40:22
S7: struggle with anxiety and worry, right. You know, and, and
40:27
S7: I've come to appreciate the fact that that, that anxiety
40:30
S7: and worry is really a sinful response to the circumstances
40:34
S7: I'm in. Because what I'm saying is I don't really
40:37
S7: trust God or I don't trust who God is or
40:39
S7: how much he loves me. And when I came to
40:42
S7: that realization, I, I recognized that, yes, God has given
40:46
S7: us incredible resources that helps us navigate these situations of
40:52
S7: worry and anxiety. You know, and part of it is
40:56
S7: reading scripture and memorizing key passages of Scripture and, you know,
41:00
S7: praying them and speaking them as your truth. Right? But
41:04
S7: prayer is another in worship are ways at which we
41:07
S7: remember again who God is and how much he loves us.
41:11
S7: and he's a loving father who will do what we
41:14
S7: ask as long as it's in accordance to his will, right?
41:18
S7: And so there's real power that we have available to
41:22
S7: us as Christians, the Holy Spirit that helps us to
41:25
S7: to think about things in the right way when we
41:28
S7: surrender to the work of the Holy Spirit. So we
41:31
S7: have incredible resources. And I think everybody who has any
41:35
S7: practical experience dealing with worry and anxiety knows how powerful
41:41
S7: it is just to, to remember what Scripture teaches.
41:44
S2: Yeah. Good word. Doctor. Fussell. Rana. Rana. Doctor fuzz, as
41:48
S2: we call him our guest this morning. If you want more,
41:51
S2: just text fuzz to 805 557898FUZ to 805 557898. We'll
42:00
S2: get you connected to more resources from Reasons to Believe.
42:04
S1: Standing on the Rock each and every day, you're listening
42:09
S1: to Carl and crew.
42:10
S2: I don't know who I can attribute this quote to.
42:14
S2: I don't know if it's an original pastor Lutzer, but
42:16
S2: I know he likes to use it. You aren't what
42:19
S2: you think you are, but what you think you are.
42:25
S2: Let me say that to you one more time. You
42:27
S2: aren't what you think you are, but what you think
42:30
S2: you are. Pastor Erwin Lutzer. I know that this is
42:34
S2: one that you have quoted often. The mind is powerful,
42:39
S2: and so much of who we are and how we
42:42
S2: live flows from what we are thinking about. Correct. Let's
42:46
S2: start with Romans 122. The renewing of the mind. Why
42:51
S2: is the mind so powerful?
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S8: Well, as it says in the book of Proverbs, very clearly,
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S8: as the man thinketh in his heart, so he is.
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S8: The most important part of you is the part that
43:03
S8: nobody sees. It's the mind. It's where life makes up
43:07
S8: its mind, so to speak, and it directs everything else. And,
43:12
S8: you know, when you think about Romans chapter 12, you know,
43:16
S8: the renewing of the mind. I want to help people
43:19
S8: to understand that what the renewing of the mind means
43:23
S8: is this. There are many people who are listening to
43:25
S8: us right now who are viewing life through their trauma,
43:28
S8: through their regrets, through the injustice that has been done
43:32
S8: to them, perhaps fear. And they're thinking about the week
43:36
S8: and they're anticipating conflict. And if we focus on that,
43:40
S8: we are consumed by it. So the renewing of the
43:44
S8: mind really has to do with, um, taking these thoughts captive,
43:50
S8: as the Bible says, taking the thoughts captive and then
43:55
S8: replacing them with other thoughts. Now I want everyone who
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S8: is listening to do a little test with me right now.
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S2: Okay?
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S8: Even if they're driving the car, Keep your eyes on
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S8: the road, please. But at the same time, we can
44:12
S8: all think other thoughts even while we're doing that. I
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S8: want everyone to think of the number seven. Get it
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S8: clearly in their mind. They know exactly where it fits
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S8: between 1 and 10. Number seven. Now stop thinking of
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S8: number seven. Stop it. Well, the fact is, you can't.
44:32
S8: There is a way, however, that you can stop thinking
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S8: about the number seven. And that is. I want you
44:39
S8: right now to switch your thoughts to think about your mother.
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S8: For most of you, I hope it's very positive thoughts
44:46
S8: for others. Unfortunately, it might not be positive thoughts, but
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S8: either way, focus on your mother. Do that for a
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S8: few seconds and pretty soon you will no longer be
44:59
S8: thinking about the number seven. So the principle of replacement
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S8: is to say this. we take our thoughts captive and
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S8: then we replace them with biblical thoughts. And of course,
45:15
S8: this involves memorization of Scripture and so forth. And as
45:19
S8: we talk about this alley, I just want to emphasize
45:24
S8: that there are two resources that we have. First of all,
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S8: in First Corinthians, Paul says that thanks to our conversion
45:32
S8: to all those who are saved, we have the mind
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S8: of Christ. So there's been something recreated within us when
45:39
S8: we get saved. And that, of course, is both our
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S8: motivation and our strength. But at the same time, we
45:47
S8: have the responsibility of deciding that we are going to
45:51
S8: take our thoughts captive and we are going to replace them.
45:57
S8: And that's where discipline comes in. Discipline in the Christian
46:01
S8: life is very, very important. And that's an aspect, and
46:06
S8: I want to help everyone who's listening here today to
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S8: see that. And even as we talk about this, to
46:14
S8: ask the question, how do I replace these thoughts that
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S8: I'm having with biblical thoughts?
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S2: Right. Pastor Erwin Lutzer, our guest right now. So that
46:24
S2: that replacement, you know, you led us through that exercise
46:27
S2: of thinking about one thing and then just stop, try
46:29
S2: to stop thinking about it. I mean, when you think
46:31
S2: about the things that often have people hung up, whether
46:34
S2: it's past memories, past trauma, whether it's some sort of
46:38
S2: lust or addiction, to try to stop thinking about something
46:43
S2: doesn't often prove to be effective. You mentioned scripture memorization.
46:47
S2: I mean, this is if we want to have the
46:49
S2: mind of Christ, we do have the mind of Christ.
46:51
S2: But if we want our thoughts to begin to conform
46:54
S2: to the mind of Christ, it's a lot of intake
46:56
S2: of scripture. I mean, there's no way around it, right?
46:59
S2: I mean, is that what you're getting at here?
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S8: You know, just last night I preached at a church
47:04
S8: and I preached on Jesus walking on the water. And
47:08
S8: we all know the story. Peter asks if he can
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S8: get out of the boat, and Jesus says, yes. And
47:14
S8: by the way, sometimes we criticize Peter. We say, well,
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S8: if he had kept his mind on Jesus, his eyes
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S8: on Jesus, he could have walked across the lake. Well,
47:23
S8: that's true, but let's give him credit for getting out
47:25
S8: of the boat. But here's the point. The Bible says
47:29
S8: that when he began to walk on the water, he
47:32
S8: saw the wind, and then he began to sink. And,
47:36
S8: you know, there are people who are listening, and this
47:38
S8: has been true of my life and your life too,
47:41
S8: I'm sure where we see the wind and it doesn't
47:45
S8: take us long for us to see the wind, that
47:47
S8: is to say, the external circumstances that control our attention
47:53
S8: and to get our eyes on Jesus. And sometimes it's
47:58
S8: a battle. I want to tell a personal story that
48:01
S8: happened about 40 years ago when I was going to
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S8: university and studying philosophy, I had an exam that I
48:08
S8: was to take and it was an oral exam, and
48:11
S8: I had failed it the first time. And I was
48:15
S8: so anxious that as I was driving along, I was
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S8: consumed by fear. And I began to quote Scripture, you know,
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S8: peace I leave with you, my peace I give on
48:28
S8: to you. Or, you know, the book of Philippians casting
48:31
S8: all your care upon him. That's actually Peter. He cares
48:34
S8: for you. And, and, uh, you know, be anxious for nothing,
48:39
S8: but in everything in prayer. And it didn't help. Yeah.
48:42
S8: But I kept doing it for about 10 or 15 minutes.
48:46
S8: And suddenly this huge peace came upon me. I was
48:53
S8: just as relaxed as I could possibly be. I was
48:57
S8: rejoicing in the Lord. I went into the man's office
49:02
S8: and flunked the test cold. I came back to the
49:06
S8: church that I was pastor of at that time. It
49:08
S8: was actually a Baptist church. This was 40 or 45
49:11
S8: years ago. My secretary said, why are you in such
49:14
S8: a good mood? I said, I've just flunked this exam
49:17
S8: twice in a row. And so I tell students, if
49:20
S8: you're going to flunk, do it victoriously. But the point
49:26
S8: that I want to make is this thinking the mind
49:30
S8: of Christ and keeping our eyes on Christ in Scripture
49:34
S8: is not easy. We have to be blood earnest that
49:40
S8: we are going to take the promises of Scripture, and
49:45
S8: we are going to implant them in our minds, and
49:47
S8: we're going to insist on them. And especially if you're
49:51
S8: new at this, what you'll discover is that there is
49:54
S8: a battle going on. You know, you're in Romans chapter 12.
49:59
S8: They're the renewing of the mind. Don't be conformed to
50:03
S8: this world. He's talking to Christians and it's so easy
50:06
S8: for us. You are absolutely right, Ali. At the beginning,
50:10
S8: when you mentioned that our default position is to be
50:14
S8: conformed to the world, you let your thoughts go wherever
50:18
S8: your thoughts go and want to go, and they're going
50:22
S8: to go into some hostile territory. So we have to
50:27
S8: take thought of the fact that we need the discipline
50:32
S8: to be able to quote Scripture, to keep our eyes
50:36
S8: on Christ, and if not, the world is going to
50:39
S8: push us into its mold. And we've all experienced that.
50:43
S8: And what we need to do is to stand against it.
50:47
S2: Pastor Erwin Lutzer, thank you so much for your time
50:50
S2: this morning. Would you offer up a quick prayer?
50:53
S8: Father, help all of us to focus on Christ, to
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S8: have our minds renewed for your glory. Help us, Lord,
51:00
S8: for we are weak. In Jesus name, Amen.
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S2: Pastor Lutzer, thank you so much. Read this scripture to
51:07
S2: you once more. I want you to meditate on this
51:09
S2: and really take to heart the words of our pastor
51:12
S2: this morning that this is. This is going to be diligent, seeking,
51:17
S2: taking in the word of God, not just in a
51:19
S2: casual sense, but really resting and meditating on it. That's
51:23
S2: Romans 122. Do not be conformed to this world, but
51:25
S2: be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by
51:29
S2: testing you may discern what is the will of God,
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S2: what is good and acceptable and perfect. Only a renewed
51:36
S2: mind can discern the will of God. Only a renewed
51:40
S2: mind can discern what is good and what is acceptable.
51:43
S2: So the opposite of that is what. When our mind
51:46
S2: is not transformed, we don't know the will of God.
51:49
S2: We cannot discern what is good and acceptable and perfect
51:53
S2: and encouragement. Get into the Word of God today. And
51:56
S2: most importantly, let the Word of God get into you.