Latest / Real Patriotism / Historian Douglas Brinkley Puts Trump’s 2025 in Historical Context

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Historian Douglas Brinkley Puts Trump’s 2025 in Historical Context · Real Patriotism

0:00
How the hell are we supposed to keep up
0:02
and understand the news when a dozen
0:06
crazy things happen every day? It has
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been that kind of year, hasn't it? And
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as we look back over the years, uh we
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wanted to get a sense of the context of
0:15
the meaning of this crazy year that we
0:17
have lived through. And so we thought
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one of the best people to talk to about
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that would be Douglas Brinkley. He's one
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of our nation's leading historians. He's
0:24
professor at Rice University. He's
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written all kinds of books. and and when
0:29
he came on the show, I wanted to make
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sure that he would uh give us his sense
0:34
of not just what happened, but why based
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on what had happened before in our
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history. Put Trump and this year in
0:44
context, chapter by chapter. That's what
0:46
this conversation is all about with
0:49
historian Douglas Brinkley. I I hope you
0:52
like it and if you do, make sure you
0:54
like and subscribe down there. It'll
0:56
help a lot. And now, my conversation
0:58
with historian Douglas Brinkley. [music]
1:05
>> Douglas Brinkley, thanks for joining us.
1:07
Really appreciate it.
1:08
>> Thank you. Uh, looking forward to
1:10
talking with you.
1:11
>> Yeah. And we're doing a year in review,
1:14
essentially looking at the year that was
1:16
2025, a pretty epical year in American
1:20
history. And who better to talk to than
1:22
one of America's leading historians. So,
1:24
I'm really glad you're here. Well, I'm
1:26
really glad to be with you.
1:28
>> So, let's talk about that. And I was I
1:30
was wondering like how to how to start.
1:33
You know, it's a year of Trump. He
1:34
dominates the political scene uh in the
1:36
United States and and around the world.
1:38
And I wanted to start with a quote from
1:40
Henry Kissinger that's been going
1:42
around. Probably have heard it. He told
1:44
the Financial Times before he died. He
1:46
was in his late 90s at that point. He
1:48
said, quote, I think Trump may be one of
1:50
those figures in history who appears
1:52
from time to time to mark the end and to
1:56
force it to give up at the end of an era
1:59
and to force it to give up its
2:00
pretenses. Is that Donald Trump? He's
2:03
brought something to a close. Um I he
2:06
has brought something to the close which
2:08
was the you know in foreign policy
2:10
alone. We could begin with uh the cold
2:13
war consensus, the idea bipartisanship.
2:16
I mean, if we look at America after
2:18
World War II, I mean, in World War II,
2:20
we were all in it together uh under FDR,
2:24
but from when Truman created our
2:26
national security state uh as president,
2:29
meaning he it's Truman who not only did
2:32
the Marshall Plan or, you know, pushed
2:35
for the creation of Israel or the Truman
2:37
Doctrine aid to Greece and Turkey, but
2:40
he created NATO, Harry Truman, and you
2:42
know, backed the the European Union. um
2:45
and which was then called the European
2:47
Economic Community as of 1957. Names
2:51
changed um and uh and created the
2:54
National Security Council, the NSC
2:56
Advisor. It's Truman who created the
2:58
CIA, the Department of Air Force. Uh I
3:02
could go on. I mean, he's the one who
3:04
named the, you know, that's the birth of
3:06
the Department of Defense that President
3:08
Trump's just renamed Department of War
3:10
going backwards. The point being from
3:13
Truman all the way to uh to the advent
3:16
of Donald Trump in the first term was a
3:19
hybrid with Trump but second term Trump
3:23
uh it's it's the dismantlement
3:26
um of that cold war order which had the
3:29
advantage of bringing Americans together
3:31
with a common foe. What what is the goal
3:34
from Truman to you know Reagan and Bush
3:37
41? uh it was always to defeat the
3:39
Soviet Union to beat, you know,
3:41
Kennedy's pledge to go to the moon. You
3:43
know, why are we doing it in in football
3:46
terms? Cuz it's a challenge and we'll
3:47
beat Russia. And it kind of pulled
3:49
people together. And Trump's come in and
3:52
just kind of wiped all of that out or
3:54
would like to. And I never thought I'd
3:57
see that in my as a trained Cold War
3:59
historian like I am. My first book was
4:01
on Dean Aeset. I wrote a biography
4:04
driven patriot of James Forest. these
4:07
cold war era Truman era figures, right?
4:09
To see this happening right now where
4:11
suddenly countries like Denmark are
4:14
worried about us and and you know,
4:16
Germany is maybe having to take the lead
4:18
in Europe again because of American
4:20
abdication. Uh it's it's strange.
4:23
>> Yeah. You know, I was I was actually in
4:25
Greenland u uh in February, March it
4:28
might have been and you could feel it
4:30
even more so. I was uh foreign
4:32
correspondent from 2013 to 2018. And so
4:35
end of Obama, beginning of Trump and
4:37
traveling around Europe in those years,
4:38
you could feel NATO shaking, trembling,
4:43
right? It had kind of lost its purpose
4:45
in some ways the with the disappearance
4:48
in the Soviet Union and became kind of
4:50
we defend the values rules-based world
4:54
order. And Trump came in and he was
4:56
like, nah, that doesn't make any sense
4:58
to me. And for all practical purposes,
5:02
is if does anyone think that a United
5:05
States under President Donald Trump
5:06
would actually come to the defense of a
5:09
European ally under attack from Russia?
5:13
Um I think we still would um if if you
5:17
know one of our NATO allies was truly
5:19
attacked. Uh already there was Russia
5:22
had gone over you know into Poland
5:24
briefly for for a half a day. Um but but
5:28
NATO supremacy, the old Eastern
5:31
establishment, the Atlantic alliance,
5:33
the the you know the structure that we
5:36
built through George Kennan's
5:37
containment and um and and relying on
5:41
the what it used to be Western Europe
5:43
and United States Canada and the
5:46
metaphor kids used to have was like a a
5:48
uh a weight, you know, as long as those
5:50
stay together, democracy would prevail.
5:53
and then add with the trilateral
5:55
commission on economy Germany, Japan,
5:58
United States meaning dollar, Deutschar,
6:01
yen and then uh have the United States
6:04
as the leader of every global
6:07
institution imaginable. Nobody now
6:10
around the world knows what America is
6:13
because we're whiplashing with Trump all
6:15
over the place. I was recently at Panama
6:19
Canal Zone and you know I look and I
6:22
suddenly realized that
6:24
that this plausible US may try to retake
6:28
the canal zone. Uh I felt it because as
6:31
a staging ground for um uh you know our
6:36
activities with Venezuela and the like
6:38
in the Caribbean um under Secretary of
6:41
Defense um Hexith. So why? Because
6:45
Trump's gone back to this sort of
6:47
hedgeimony, you know, the the three big
6:50
powers and like this he he's learned
6:52
late in life the the Monroe doctrine
6:55
1820 says our hemisphere and we got to
6:58
get China out. Well, China's only in
7:00
Panama economically because everybody in
7:03
Panama has their um phones, their
7:06
iPhones were bought by these little mini
7:09
markets that are are Chinese.
7:11
Ostensibly, China's got information
7:14
about Panama, but you know, this is the
7:18
the hemispheric approach. Greenland was
7:20
part of that. Get Canada uh you know, as
7:24
as a state, even though it's a lark, but
7:28
Trump would like to do that and thinks
7:30
that's kind of things important and it's
7:32
a symbol of blowing up of NAFTA. Um, you
7:36
know what Trump has benefited on and
7:38
what maybe the the Atlantic Alliance
7:41
folks that I'm talking about missed was
7:44
that 1992 presidential election when
7:48
Bill Clinton beat George Herbert Walker
7:50
Bush. Um but Ross pero but both Clinton
7:54
and Bush were were establishment people
7:57
on foreign policy both pro-NAFTA
8:01
both continuing the tradition since
8:04
Truman on national security but there
8:06
was Ross Perau of Dallas you know
8:09
getting the billionaire getting uh 19
8:12
almost 19% of the vote in 1992 on one
8:16
issue or two maybe left behind PS in
8:19
Vietnam but the big issue was the
8:21
sucking sound of your jobs are they're
8:24
going to Mexico and people in Ohio and
8:28
Pennsylvania the so-called rust belt
8:30
where manufacturing sectors were
8:32
crumbling in Cicero Illinois or Gary
8:34
Indiana on and on um pero capture that
8:38
19 and Donald Trump just picked up that
8:42
whatever that pero vote is it's gone
8:45
Trump in key key swing states
8:48
>> like Pennsylvania and And that's a
8:51
gamecher. So pro seemed like a fluke, a
8:53
minor guy. Uh 19% big, but so what? Bill
8:58
Clinton won. Uh but in retrospect, it
9:01
was a movement that Perau was talking
9:04
about uh anti-NAFTA that's had a lot of
9:07
legs and Trump has been able to
9:09
capitalize on that. And when you when
9:12
you attack globalism and free trade
9:15
packs, um then you're creating a new
9:18
world economic order.
9:20
Yeah, I mean the irony of two
9:21
billionaires uh being the hero of the
9:24
working class, but that in some ways is
9:26
an indictment of of the Democrats,
9:28
right? I mean, Trump, I remember right
9:30
after Trump was elected in 2016, before
9:33
he was inaugurated in January of 2017,
9:36
in between, uh he said something that I
9:38
had never heard a president say, and I
9:40
wondered why. There was a moment when
9:43
the carrier air conditioning company of
9:46
Indianapolis was about to move 1100 jobs
9:49
from its factory there down to Mexico.
9:51
NAFTA, right? And Trump, President-elect
9:54
at the time, said, "No, that is not good
9:57
for our country." And he sent Mike Pence
10:00
out to fix it. And, you know, it was all
10:02
kind of a sham after that. But I
10:03
remember my ears perked up and I said,
10:05
"Wow, no president, no American
10:07
president in all the years that we've
10:08
been offshoring manufacturing, uh, which
10:11
it was many by that time, decades by
10:13
that time. Why had no president ever
10:15
said that to a single corporation?"
10:17
Trump definitely had and has his finger
10:21
on this deep resentment that a lot of
10:23
people have about the change in the
10:25
economy and who benefited and who
10:27
didn't, right? Yeah. I I think the
10:29
gutting of America, the the the uh
10:33
horrific shutting down of our
10:34
manufacturing sector and and leaving
10:36
these towns um uh hurting such a degree,
10:40
somebody in history was going to get the
10:42
blame for that. And you know, it was
10:45
either going to be the labor unions who
10:48
who, you know, pushed companies out or
10:51
it was going to be a globalist elitist,
10:54
you know, and a cabal that did it. Or uh
10:58
it was going to be our own our own um
11:01
local
11:03
backwardness of not uh catching the wave
11:05
of the tech revolution. But there was
11:08
going to be a verdict and the answer
11:10
became Donald Trump on was unlikely. But
11:13
you know he has spent we think of him as
11:15
the builder or you know marketeteer but
11:18
he also would you know always put on a
11:20
hard hat or I mean look at that moment
11:22
during the election when he spent a day
11:24
handing out McDonald's you know and
11:27
>> he couldn't help but laugh. It was
11:29
funny.
11:29
>> He couldn't help but laugh and it was
11:30
symbolic that I I don't think I'm better
11:33
than you. I'm richer than you. I'm much
11:36
more powerful than you. But you know, I
11:39
am your avenger and I'm when you look at
11:43
Akran or or you know, Canton, Ohio or
11:46
somewhere that was economically left
11:48
behind. I I'm the one who's going to be
11:51
your avenger. And people bought into
11:53
that because there was an ardent he it
11:56
was comic fodder sometimes with Trump,
11:58
but also from the apprentice years.
12:00
There was a belief he'd fired the
12:02
people. Who who screwed you? I'll go get
12:04
them. and he's been able to ride that
12:07
quite effectively, but I I thought it
12:09
may have been a political posture, but
12:11
in the end, uh it's something that
12:13
Trump's taken on almost with an
12:15
ideological fervor. And he wants to be
12:18
remembered in history in large ways as
12:21
we all know. I mean, you don't build the
12:23
ballroom, you know, that Trump at the
12:25
White House premises, you know, to rip
12:28
down the East Wing for the, you know,
12:30
the Trump ballroom or put up an arch for
12:32
America 250 or, you know, with your name
12:35
on it or do a credit card, you get a
12:37
million dollars with a Trump gold card
12:39
to come to America.
12:41
He wants to be a big figure, a power
12:45
figure in world history, not just
12:48
another tick- tock of presidents, not a
12:51
Clinton or a Bush or Jerry Ford or Jimmy
12:54
Carter or Linder Johnson. Uh he wants to
12:56
be Lincoln or maybe the only one he says
13:00
better than him, maybe Washington. He's
13:02
a little bit differential to, but that's
13:04
about it. He wants to be remembered as
13:07
the name Trump will live forever.
13:09
whether it's connected to you know um
13:12
Dencha Ping or Mount Sang or Vladimir
13:16
Putin it just that idea you can have
13:18
your name known or de Gaulle or
13:20
Churchill
13:21
>> and he's achieved that Trump will be
13:23
talked about forever
13:27
>> there will be Trump's studies at
13:29
universities all over the world in years
13:31
to come
13:32
>> there'll need to be because he is a
13:34
world historical figure he changed as
13:35
you say the international trading system
13:37
the international security system. He's
13:38
had this gigantic impact and he thinks
13:41
he belongs in the company of of Lincoln
13:43
and and Washington. Maybe they don't
13:45
belong in his, but you know, he's
13:48
obviously we've never had a president
13:50
like him in in every respect, but I have
13:53
we had presidents like him in in in in
13:57
specific ways in temperament, in
13:59
disruptive
14:01
energies, in coarseness, right? I mean,
14:04
the thing he said, you know, as we tape,
14:06
we're we it's the day after the murder
14:08
of Hollywood great Rob Reiner and his
14:11
wife Michelle Singer Reiner, and Trump
14:13
puts out this vile, horrible post
14:16
dancing on the man hours after he's
14:19
dead. Have we ever had such coarseness
14:22
and bombast as well as such willingness
14:25
to disrupt everything that came before
14:28
him? I mean, how do you draw parallels
14:30
with any Donald Trump and any other
14:32
president? Uh I look I the first term
14:36
Trump uh I made some comparisons. Um,
14:40
you know, there was, you know, Andrew
14:42
Jackson came off people's lips because
14:45
of the populism of Jackson, but also
14:48
Trump himself had moved Jackson's
14:50
portrait and into the Oval Office and
14:53
his first sort of history museum, so to
14:56
speak, trip was to the Hermitage in
14:59
Nashville to Andrew Andrew Jackson. and
15:01
Andrew Jackson had lost the famous
15:04
election where he Jackson claimed he won
15:07
and and you know the 1820s and then
15:09
Jackson became president and sought a
15:11
lot of revenge uh because the some of
15:15
his opponents had attacked his wife and
15:17
and other things. So Jackson was, you
15:20
know, that kind of coarseness. I I, you
15:22
know, a little bit of Trump there. Then
15:25
in more recent times, you're it's it's
15:28
there's no other president um
15:31
stylistically that Trump comes close to
15:33
in my mind except Nixon. Uh Donald Trump
15:37
loves Richard Nixon. I by one time
15:40
talking to President Trump as a
15:41
historian at Mara Lago uh as I asked him
15:44
about presidents and he went on to tell
15:47
me the story that uh you know which is
15:50
verifiable um that you know Pat Nixon,
15:53
the former first lady had caught Donald
15:56
Trump on the Phil Donnu show and thought
15:58
he was marvelous and could be president
16:00
someday and Richard Nixon was trying to
16:03
rehabilitate himself and wrote a nice
16:04
letter to Donald Trump. What I don't
16:07
know if people know is that Trump and
16:08
Nixon went out like six, seven times for
16:11
dinner in New York together and um and
16:14
became pretty close. And then you had
16:16
Roy Cohen, the the famous lawyer for
16:20
Nixon and McCarthy and um and Trump
16:23
liked Nixon. You know, Roger Stone has
16:25
Nixon on his back. Uh there was always a
16:28
group that wanted
16:29
>> Yeah. tattooed. you know, they wanted to
16:31
get um the liberals media elites, the
16:35
Woodward Bernstein, Washington Post, the
16:37
Ben Bradley, the New York Times, the
16:39
Pentagon Papers, you know, uh all of
16:42
that. There was a a right-wing revenge
16:45
against the John Deans of the world
16:48
because so many of Nixon's guys, ardent
16:51
Republicans, went to jail. you know, HR
16:54
Haldderman and John Erlick men and John
16:56
Mitchell, Chuck Coulson, and many more.
17:00
Um, and the there was a feeling that
17:03
this wasn't fair, that Nixon had won the
17:06
biggest landslide in American history in
17:08
1972, the biggest. And yet 7374,
17:13
the elite of the media working with
17:16
Democratic liberals destroyed Richard
17:18
Nixon. in some ways Trump's the avenger
17:21
of Richard Nixon also. And
17:24
>> that's an interesting way that's an
17:26
interesting way of looking at it. Let's
17:28
look back at a couple of stories over
17:29
the course of the year, big stories. Put
17:32
them in some kind of historical context
17:34
if possible. And and the one that that
17:37
hits me is the assassination of Charlie
17:40
Kirk. um such a young man uh who helped
17:45
make Donald Trump and the Trump movement
17:47
from a very young age and before even
17:50
Trump was elected starting before Trump
17:52
was elected in in 2016 and started
17:56
building taking aim at the next
17:57
generation coming up of voters
17:59
especially young men and you know this
18:03
kind of Johnny Apple Seed attitude and
18:06
engaging them where they were on college
18:09
campuses where conservatives uh had not
18:12
felt welcome uh for a long time and he
18:16
did change uh American politics for that
18:18
generation certainly it seems um and
18:21
then to be cut down like that it for
18:25
people who support Donald Trump for
18:27
people who support uh that kind of
18:29
conservatism if you want to call it that
18:31
that kind of nationalist populist
18:33
conservatism
18:34
>> they're still in shock and horror uh
18:38
about it it's a signal event in in their
18:40
lives in the life of our country. What
18:42
do you make of of of it and what have
18:45
you thought about it in its historic con
18:48
context?
18:48
>> Well, historically we need to keep in
18:50
mind often we try to have the vital
18:52
center as Arthur Slesinger Jr. famously
18:55
wrote about in America. we try to stay
18:57
and then we go center left, center
18:58
right. But in the long ' 60s, uh,
19:01
particularly 65 to 74. Uh, you know, we
19:05
it wasn't just legislation getting
19:07
passed of the Great Society or Rachel
19:09
Carson on the environment or Ralph Nater
19:12
on on seat belts and the like. It was a
19:15
movement and it would had rock and roll.
19:17
It had all, you know, this whole like
19:20
counterculture movement working with the
19:23
Democratic liberals. And yet the 60s we
19:26
talk a lot about the assassinations of
19:28
heroes of the liberal left. I mean of
19:31
John F. Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy
19:33
and Martin Luther King and Medgar Evers
19:36
and and Malcolm X and you know the list
19:38
of of of people is long of Fred Hampton
19:41
and many more. And that I I once went on
19:44
Trevor Noah. I I was on the night where
19:47
Trump first won first term. I was a
19:49
guest on Trevor Noah and trying to make
19:52
sense of it. And I remember the Bob
19:54
Dylan line in 1965. You know,
19:56
something's happening and you don't know
19:57
what it is, do you, Mr. Jones? In the
20:01
'60s, the people didn't understand the
20:03
counterculture. Although John Burchers,
20:06
Barry Goldwater, people, the right, you
20:08
know, uh there was Reagan out there in
20:10
California holding his own, but it had
20:12
it's seen as a progressive era where
20:15
they got a lot done yet had all of that
20:17
bloodshed. Uh uh and and on the um right
20:21
now they're feeling it's their movement
20:24
time. You guys had yours in the 60s and
20:26
70s. Trump is our movement and the the
20:30
amount of connections of assassinations
20:33
or attempted are are going to be
20:35
connected in history. meaning Butler,
20:37
Pennsylvania when Donald Trump was shot
20:40
and uh and said fight
20:43
is a turning point for Trump winning in
20:47
and this term big time. That's when Elon
20:50
Musk backed Trump and brought the techn
20:53
the techs techies of California, the
20:56
tech bros, I don't use that term, but
20:58
they brought those companies were
21:00
Democrats and now they're working with
21:02
Trump.
21:03
>> And then Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
21:05
uh moved right after Butler and went
21:08
with Trump. And then there was the
21:10
second attempted assassination on Trump.
21:13
And then cut to this year, 2025, Charlie
21:16
Kirk, hero of young Republicans, hero of
21:20
a new kind of Christian value movement
21:22
in America. Uh uh really gaining
21:26
traction on college campuses in an
21:28
extraordinary way. and boom uh gunned
21:32
down in such a horrific way in Utah and
21:35
it traumatized
21:37
uh many people and but it's also gotten
21:40
anger and the dander up on uh the the
21:43
MAGA movement too or whatever it is
21:46
right now and but history is going to
21:49
connect all of the the Trump Butler I
21:51
think and Charlie Kirk is is there a are
21:54
are there's a targeting going on of
21:56
these conservative or Trump Trump people
21:59
or Not. But also I think this year on a
22:02
more upbeat note I think of Pope Leo uh
22:05
an American pope when you do real
22:07
history of a you know thousand years
22:09
looking that the United States as the
22:12
pope in the Vatican from Chicago you
22:15
know uh Donald Trump will come and go.
22:19
There'll be another president another
22:20
president but this pope will be there
22:22
for a while and that's going to live in
22:23
history for a long time that uh there
22:25
was an American pope. Um and I think
22:28
that's a uh something more hopeful that
22:30
happened this past year.
22:32
>> Yeah. He and he is not afraid to speak
22:34
up. In some ways it has struck me that
22:38
Trump on one hand and Pope Leo on the
22:40
other hand are the two poles of sort of
22:43
public morality right now. They both
22:45
articulate in a way that that either you
22:48
have to you have to agree with or you
22:50
have to push back against. They're
22:51
they're so absolutist in some ways in
22:53
their vision. Pope Leo talking about
22:56
welcome the immigrant and and and all of
22:59
the virtues uh that he believes, you
23:01
know, come from the gospels and that can
23:04
be applied in government. And Trump with
23:07
this, you know, bulldozing of all those
23:11
nicities in some ways, more than
23:12
nicities, those values in some ways
23:14
those laws in trying to get a million
23:16
people or more out per year out of the
23:18
United States. And we see those videos.
23:21
I mean, in some ways, those two figures
23:23
right now, those two Americans uh
23:26
represent kind of the choice that
23:29
governments and peoples around the
23:30
world, free peoples around the world are
23:32
choosing from that they're do you want
23:34
to go Trump's way or or are you going to
23:36
try and reestablish that kind of civic
23:39
virtue that is grounded in the old
23:42
teachings of of the Bible and and other
23:45
uh and other things like that? Or do you
23:48
want to go Trump's way and win? or he
23:50
would say, I mean, I don't I don't know
23:51
how many people would say America's
23:52
winning right now, but you know, do it
23:54
your way. Feels like that's a that's a
23:56
tension in the world, a showdown in the
23:58
world right now, whether either men want
23:59
either man wants it or not. I think
24:02
that's very well said uh and and smart
24:05
in in every way to the point that, you
24:07
know, Pope Leo is really honed in on on
24:10
on the main issue of the immigration.
24:14
And I think one of the criticisms
24:16
Trump's setting himself up for or has
24:19
already is the way ISIS has come into
24:21
American cities. And whether you're
24:23
getting the bad people out, you have to
24:25
always keep in mind the the people that
24:28
don't deserve to have their rights just
24:31
uh um you know um disregarded, meaning
24:34
the constitutional rights. And that that
24:37
is Pope Leo's issue of criticism of
24:39
America is the way we're treating
24:40
immigrants. And that's something that
24:42
Trump blows back completely against. And
24:45
then secondarily, both Pope Francis and
24:48
Pope Leo are trying to continue to lead
24:50
the world on climate change. And um you
24:53
know, climate change 3 years ago,
24:55
everybody's just talking about it. It
24:56
was the electric car movement uh led by,
24:59
you know, Musk himself with Tesla. And
25:02
you can't get people right now, you
25:04
can't get the media to talk about
25:05
climate change except for the Pope and
25:08
the European countries and you know and
25:11
and so you know there there's those two
25:13
issues that Pope Leo's sort of standing
25:16
in with are two that Donald Trump's
25:19
utterly opposed to. He's called climate
25:21
change a hoax and uh and wants to go
25:24
back and we are going back for
25:26
temporarily to petroleum and the fossil
25:29
fuel industry and the like. So, who is
25:31
Trump at war with uh or Trumpism?
25:35
Federal regul regulations. I mean, this
25:38
all was triggered by that long 60s of,
25:41
you know, the birth of the EPA and clean
25:43
air and clean water and Lynen Johnson's
25:45
immigration and uh public housing and
25:48
any government looking making the
25:51
corporations looking to see what they're
25:53
doing wrong. And it was a great time of
25:56
the federal government regardless of
25:58
Vietnam war, but the power of the
26:00
federal government had continued. By 80,
26:03
Reagan was watering it down. Uh, and
26:06
with Trump, it's just he wants to
26:08
obliterate anything that became a
26:10
progressive law in the uh Johnson and
26:14
Nixon years. Um, and
26:16
>> you're exactly right about that. I mean,
26:18
we forget Trump is is a boomer, right?
26:21
And I mean, he's so old. I guess the who
26:24
else is around but there is a sense that
26:27
the 60s never ended for that generation
26:30
right there it's my generation too I was
26:32
at the tail end of it more or less but
26:34
that the 60s remain the battleground the
26:38
values about women uh leaving the home
26:42
if they chose to and work the the
26:45
acceptance of difference in so many ways
26:47
the the cultural changes and and the
26:50
economic changes that we talked about is
26:52
are the 60s ever going to end? Uh, you
26:56
know, yeah, it but it tells you how. And
26:59
I I use that term long 60s because, you
27:02
know, Kennedy, JFK's 60s is different.
27:06
Um, Kennedy was fairly fiscal
27:08
conservative. He had very high
27:10
bipartisan numbers. John F. Kennedy, the
27:12
moonshot of going to the moon was
27:14
bipartisan. He got high marks eventually
27:17
for the Cuban missile crisis. JFK was a
27:19
Cold War hawk and all. the civil rights
27:21
movement was at a different moment in
27:24
time. But by the time Lynen Johnson
27:26
comes in with the Great Society with his
27:28
speech at University of Michigan and
27:29
you're getting now Medicaid, Medicare,
27:32
NPR, PBS, you know, uh, Wild and Scenic
27:36
Rivers and National Trails and and you
27:39
know, Department of Transportation, it
27:42
just starts going, you know, but and it
27:46
doesn't really stop uh until Reagan. Uh
27:50
Jimmy Carter is was actually a we the
27:53
last of a new deal or so I mean Nixon
27:57
had and Nixon and Carter are similar in
27:59
policy in the end but Carter had the
28:02
environment at least public lands with
28:04
Alaska and human rights but it was the
28:06
gas tank was empty. I mean, it's why
28:09
Reagan beat Carter so badly. And by 80,
28:11
it gave Reagan gave
28:14
>> uh the Republican party the gift of sane
28:17
leadership for eight years in the sense
28:19
of his diplomacy with ML Gorbachoff. And
28:23
look at what did Reagan, everybody was
28:25
afraid of Reagan on the left, but after
28:27
he was shot and just like Trump's moment
28:31
of fight. Reagan got shot in March of 81
28:34
and the public kind of coalesed around
28:36
him to get better and then Reagan even
28:39
though he's calling Russia the you know
28:40
Soviet Union evil empire and went to
28:43
Berlin with later with the speech tear
28:45
down the wall. That's the soundbite
28:47
Reagan lives with that that more ardent
28:49
foreign policy approach defeated Russia
28:53
in the sense the Berlin Wall went down
28:54
in 1989 and then the Soviet Union
28:57
collapses in 1991 and then in places
29:00
like Ukraine were looking for news loose
29:02
nuclear weapons and then when Bill
29:04
Clinton came in in the '9s uh his
29:07
foreign policy was about NATO
29:08
enlargement as they'd call it. to Poland
29:11
or uh Czech Republic, Slovakia. I mean,
29:13
countries started joining NATO. Uh it
29:16
became the big thing for a while and now
29:19
you're seeing under Trump the
29:21
dismantlement of of the the primacy of
29:25
NATO. Uh and it began his first term,
29:28
but it it's clear now if you're a
29:31
European Western European country,
29:33
you're you're going to be nervous about
29:35
the what America's up to right now. Is
29:37
Trump just Trump a cult of personality
29:40
or is this a giant shifting moment in in
29:44
world history that Trump is a a power
29:47
leader of? And sadly, Ukraine has been
29:51
caught in the middle of all of this. And
29:54
uh and then add to that the a
29:57
consistency I see with Trump and foreign
29:59
policy. In fact, Trump will go down as
30:02
one of the great friends of Israel. um
30:04
is you know since Truman and to Trump us
30:08
seeing Israel uh as a special
30:10
relationship that's kind of held I mean
30:13
there are moments Dwight Eisenhower and
30:15
the Suez uh crisis in the 50s you know
30:19
was sided with Egypt not Israel there
30:21
there's u and you know John F Kennedy
30:23
did not want Israel to have nuclear
30:25
weapons but from Lynden Johnson on down
30:28
US and Israel's held tight so Trump will
30:31
be remembered first term from leaving
30:34
Tel Aviv, the American embassy in
30:36
Jerusalem and doubling and tripling down
30:39
with uh Netanyahu and uh that is an area
30:43
that that Trump's foreign policy will be
30:46
studied and talked about. But nobody
30:48
could say Trump's not been an ardent
30:50
>> friend of Israel and his strike uh on
30:52
Iran, that targeted strike which was
30:55
very risky and I didn't know how I felt
30:57
about it to be honest with you. I was
31:00
but it it kind of happened and at least
31:02
temporarily they didn't have the uh the
31:05
you know the the grim ugly effect of
31:08
that that one may have thought could
31:10
happen and we're seeing now the hitting
31:11
of the Venezuelan cartel boats and you
31:15
know when you're a historian like myself
31:17
you're always worried about an event
31:18
that her that that's just a trigger for
31:21
things I mean you have to read Barbara
31:23
Tuckman you know the proud tower guns of
31:26
August stypus books you know but uh you
31:28
know just we got to be careful not to
31:30
suddenly tripwire into something. You
31:33
know, the Arch Duke Ferdinand
31:35
assassination
31:37
>> seems minor, but it became a catalyst
31:39
for World War I. So, we have to make
31:41
sure something like hitting these, you
31:43
know, killing the uh, you know,
31:45
Venezuelan boats and blowing them up and
31:48
then killing people in the water that
31:49
that doesn't trigger a larger problem
31:52
that then escalates globally. And that
31:54
what is what's nerve-wracking about
31:56
Trump uh is that you nobody and maybe I
32:00
think Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr.
32:02
think of it as their father's superpower
32:05
his unpredictability but you know I like
32:07
to live in a little bit more of a
32:08
predictable world. I I can't we all know
32:12
it you know even in this obviously in
32:15
this century too it's easy to start wars
32:17
it's hard to get out of them and exactly
32:19
I I thought that was one of his appeals
32:21
to people. Let me ask you about a couple
32:22
of other big stories of the year. Uh the
32:25
Supreme Court, right? This is a
32:27
president who has pushed the boundaries
32:28
and beyond the boundaries of
32:30
presidential authorities when it comes
32:32
to his his control of the executive
32:35
branch, including what were once
32:37
understood to be independent agencies.
32:39
Uh the way he has put American troops on
32:42
the streets of American cities where
32:45
there's no real breakdown in law and
32:47
order and where they have not been
32:48
requested by the governing authorities.
32:51
And the Supreme Court has been basically
32:53
greenlighting everything he's done after
32:56
last year giving him complete immunity
32:59
from any anything he does as president
33:02
within the farthest reaches of what can
33:04
even remotely be described as official
33:06
duties. And it's left this this bold
33:11
president if nothing else free reign
33:14
basically. What happened to the Supreme
33:16
Court do you think? Well, you know,
33:19
there's no question that we it's a it's
33:21
a kind of federalist society uh you know
33:24
uh uh you know, Heritage Foundation uh
33:28
project 2025 court. However, um what's
33:33
really happening this year when you're
33:35
asking to assess this year with
33:36
President Trump is I was there I was
33:39
actually working for CBS News as
33:41
historian day for the inaugural but in
33:44
the capital. It was a it was a like the
33:46
fir it was an odd Trump inaugural in the
33:49
capital. The weather was cold but you
33:51
know it was in the realm of of the first
33:53
term Trump. But then he went over to the
33:55
capital arena sat music blaring and
33:58
signing executive order number one of
34:01
the second term. What was that executive
34:03
order? Incidentally presidents tend not
34:05
to do any on their day one was be unity
34:07
day
34:08
>> but he he gave pardon to the January 6
34:11
insurrectionist. So the other thing
34:14
that's playing out is still January 6
34:16
right now. There's the argument on that.
34:19
Uh but once he let those people out of
34:21
the January 6 and then he's started
34:23
every he's made the executive order a
34:25
ceremony every day and the Oval Office
34:28
is wired and Trump signs it the biggest
34:30
signature you've ever seen and those
34:32
executive orders give the feeling of
34:34
activism in a media age. Um, and yet
34:38
some stick, a lot do, but many, many,
34:41
many get struck down. Just like first
34:43
term Trump with his Muslim ban, and the
34:46
court said no. And I think what's held
34:49
the line against Donald Trump, imperial
34:53
presidency, is the lower courts in
34:55
America who have thrown stuff out,
34:58
slowed the mucked up the machinery,
35:00
slowed things down. Um, but the Supreme
35:03
Court um is is is different. I mean,
35:06
they seem to be favoring whatever Trump
35:09
wants at least, uh, you know, nine out
35:12
of 10 times, it seems like. Um, but I'm
35:15
not, they have reasons for that, but
35:17
they are in sync. But it also might be
35:20
Trump's big overstep. Uh, he may be he's
35:23
I think assumes Roberts and and, uh,
35:27
other of of conservative just justices,
35:30
uh, Amy Coney Barrett are like rubber
35:33
stamps for him.
35:34
>> Yeah. But and I think the public hopes
35:37
the Supreme Court is it that they may be
35:39
conservative. They might be with Trump
35:41
sometimes, but they're not justice uh
35:44
the Supreme Court and Justice Department
35:47
all become morphed together into one
35:50
kind of Trump
35:52
>> um you know authoritarian entity and
35:55
that I'll have to see how that plays out
35:56
in 2026 with some of the big cases you
35:59
know we're we'll be dealing with.
36:01
>> A quick couple more quick questions but
36:03
first just to button that down. How
36:04
concerned are you about, you know, the
36:08
the radical change of American democracy
36:11
towards something authoritarian? Uh, is
36:14
that happening, do you think?
36:15
>> Well, just like I mentioned executive
36:17
orders. If look, um, George Washington
36:20
10 did the an executive order for
36:22
neutrality. Abraham Lincoln did the
36:25
emancipation proclamation.
36:28
We all celebrate these, but you know,
36:31
look at FDR. He did the Manhattan
36:33
project with an executive order
36:36
>> and then also did Japanese interament
36:38
with it.
36:39
>> And at some point an executive order
36:41
particularly with a president like Trump
36:43
is is a he's not doing it for good
36:45
governance. He's doing it for self
36:46
agrandisement and to get his way. And I
36:50
worry about the diminishing
36:52
shrinking of Congress and the Senate uh
36:56
be because except for Ran Paul and Lisa
36:59
Marowski just named a couple senators,
37:02
they're basically lap dogs for Trump or
37:04
at least were uh up until perhaps the
37:07
the you know some events here in the
37:09
fall might be starting to water Trumpism
37:12
down a little bit. But that that's been
37:14
a uh you know
37:17
just something we got to remember.
37:19
Meaning if you like the president the
37:21
executive order is great and if you
37:23
don't it's awful. Uh and I think in the
37:25
end it is not a it's not legislation.
37:30
>> Uh you think it's big. You see the
37:31
signing of the executive order but a lot
37:34
of them just get thrown into the the the
37:36
the you know the garbage can of history
37:39
because they don't have staying power.
37:42
Um, and the it's always better to get a
37:46
a you know, the Congress involved and
37:49
get real legislation done than just to
37:52
do executive orders on whim in a
37:54
willy-nilly fashion.
37:56
>> All right, couple more questions. One,
37:58
uh, this is kind of looking back, but
37:59
also looking forward. Is Trump losing
38:02
it? Is he slipping a gear? Look, we just
38:04
went through Joe Biden, a president in
38:07
his 80s. Trump is going to be 80 next
38:10
year, I believe. uh or the year after.
38:13
And so, are we looking at at a man in
38:16
decline? It seems he's losing impulse
38:20
control. He's lashing out in the in in a
38:22
in the coarsest and most vulgar ways
38:25
like a like an old cranky guy who's
38:28
losing track of behavior. Maybe he's
38:31
just intoxicated with power. But there
38:33
are other signs. He's slowed down. They
38:35
aren't coming clean about his health.
38:38
What do you see in in Trump and and in
38:41
the context of other very old presidents
38:43
we've had?
38:45
>> Um that it's a different media age and
38:47
he is a beneficiary. He wants to own
38:50
every hour, own every day and that's
38:53
exhausting for anybody at any age. Um
38:56
for a while I've been just stunned at
38:58
his ability to just keep on going. Uh,
39:01
but you can see the a a a decline and
39:05
whether it's a I'm not suggesting
39:07
because I'm not a doctor cognitive
39:09
decline or a deterioration from a
39:12
disease. I wouldn't know but I can tell
39:15
when somebody is a president is
39:18
overdoing it, is o exhausted, is faking
39:22
it. And so when you start getting the
39:23
falling asleep photos, Trump knows as
39:26
well as anybody after he did the whole
39:29
sleepy Joe Biden bit that he's going to
39:31
get hammered on that. And so if he had
39:34
somebody looking after him, a
39:36
scheduleuler, somebody he trusted, an
39:38
alter ego or somebody and there isn't
39:40
one, but if there was, maybe one of his
39:42
kids could cut the appearances down. Get
39:45
more rest. Stay. You don't have to be
39:48
every day doing something. You don't
39:50
have to do a a truth social every minute
39:52
and say something idiotic like you said
39:54
about uh the death of the rhiners. It's
39:57
horrific and gross. It's nothing funny
40:00
about it's just bad. and he may not
40:03
think it's bad or he thinks all of us
40:05
are wrong and you all said my tweeting
40:08
didn't work and yet my tweets in in
40:10
truth social those are going to those I
40:13
I'm right to own the hour and you only
40:16
can own an hour in a cluttered media
40:18
environment by saying something
40:20
outrageous um and he is he he's mastered
40:24
that but there does seem to be
40:26
diminished returns because the outrage
40:29
is turns to nausea at some point you are
40:32
getting a lot of people is like uggh
40:34
about it particularly if their Medicaid
40:36
or Medicare social security or isn't
40:40
kicking in or the economy takes a
40:43
downward spiral and his tariffs get
40:45
blamed and it's been an exhausting 2025
40:49
with Donald Trump the thought of three
40:51
more years of it uh one can't help but
40:54
think that uh after watching the
40:56
elections and governors winning in New
40:59
Jersey and Virginia and Mand Dami in New
41:02
York and the mayor of Miami Democrat
41:04
winning. I mean that there is a slide
41:07
that Trump's kind of on a downward
41:09
trajectory and his poll numbers are are
41:10
terrible. I mean you don't want to be
41:12
president running ever at 38%. Uh u they
41:16
have hovers at 40 hits 42. But it's not
41:19
a strong leadership. It's a movement
41:22
number that it's still the Trump
41:24
movement but uh it's fraying in a lot of
41:27
places. And I I I he I worry that he'll
41:31
do something ardent in foreign policy to
41:34
try to be a wartime president which will
41:37
green light a lot of what he wants to
41:40
do. Uh I mean a wag the dog kind of
41:43
thing. You know, he's starting to
41:44
disassemble. So he does something uh uh
41:47
in a a militant fashion to kind of re
41:50
regain the narrative.
41:51
>> So uh let's close it out with one
41:54
forward-looking question that always at
41:55
the end of the year. What are you
41:56
looking for next year? Not maybe a
41:59
prediction about the midterms or
42:01
something that that that you've got your
42:03
eye on in 2026.
42:07
Um well, let's just realize that say you
42:10
mention elections, that's going to be a
42:12
dominant theme. And um I see two
42:15
Democrats that emerged in 2025
42:18
um that are going to be powerful players
42:21
for the Democratic nomination to come
42:23
and that's Governor Gavin Newsome in
42:25
California by his learning to do mains
42:28
and tweets and his staff just constantly
42:31
uh kind of doing a ridicule of President
42:35
Trump. He's put points on the board and
42:37
also the effort in California on
42:39
gerrymandering. Gavin Newsome's got some
42:42
wind in his sail, but also Governor
42:44
Pritsker of Illinois with all of the ICE
42:47
issues going on or you know, you know,
42:50
Pritsker stood uh strong. I mean,
42:53
Chicago stood up with the governor and I
42:57
think those two uh stars have risen in
43:01
maybe in unexpected ways in 2025. Um and
43:05
I and on the Republican side, I think
43:07
Marco Rubio was a beneficiary of 2025
43:12
um because of his shuttle diplomacy and
43:14
seems to be the voice of uh US foreign
43:18
policy I imagine to people everybody in
43:21
the world at this point and Vance has
43:24
had more difficult moments. Um, you
43:27
know, I don't think he's been able to
43:29
ride the wave of the way that Rubio is
43:32
emerging as a as a a as a leader.
43:35
Doesn't mean I'm making predictions
43:36
here. I'm just saying Rubio for from the
43:39
Republican side. It looks like he's he's
43:41
consolidating some power by never
43:44
catching the eye of Donald Trump. And
43:47
yet, it seems to be the person the world
43:50
looks to. And of course, uh, the
43:52
Democrats um had lost some Latino
43:55
voters. Does does uh Rubio bring that to
43:57
a Republican party or not by able to
44:00
speak Spanish or is it not you know
44:02
they're when people talk about Latinos I
44:05
mean they're Mexican-Americans you know
44:06
and and and and you know Venezuelan
44:09
Americans and and Cubanameans and
44:11
they're not a monolith but um I I will
44:14
be curious to see if Trumpism goes down.
44:18
I think Vance goes down with it. He's
44:20
such a he's such a tied to the persona
44:24
of Donald Trump where Rubio has kept an
44:26
interesting bit of daylight where he's
44:29
kind of an old senator that everybody
44:31
knows that side of Rubio and um and yet
44:34
he hasn't somehow managed to uh offend
44:37
Donald Trump.
44:39
>> Well, I I only have one prediction for
44:42
next year and that's that the Chicago
44:43
Cubs are going to win the World Series.
44:44
But I've been making that prediction
44:46
long time. It only came through words. I
44:48
I'm a Detroit Tiger die hard and I
44:51
always think we're
44:52
>> and we were so good this year and then
44:53
we blew it in September, but we're going
44:55
to do it.
44:56
>> Yeah, they're a great team. The Cubs and
44:58
the Tigers in a World Series.
45:00
>> Wouldn't that be great? Wouldn't that be
45:02
great?
45:02
>> Midwest forever.
45:04
>> Midwest all the time.
45:05
>> Absolutely. Douglas Brinkley, thank you
45:07
very much for your historians
45:09
perspective and helping us understand
45:11
the year that was. Thanks a lot. [music]
45:14
>> Thank you.
45:18
>> [music]