Latest / The Missing Middle Podcast / The Secret to Building Family-Friendly Housing in Existing Neighbourhoods

Transcript

The Secret to Building Family-Friendly Housing in Existing Neighbourhoods · The Missing Middle Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Canada's population growth is experiencing a temporary pause, but it is set to start growing again in 2028 when the number of non-permanent residents plateaus, this along with pent-up demand from a generation of young people who have been locked out of the housing market, raised the need for more family-friendly housing.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Building additional housing in existing neighborhoods has long been seen as part of the solution, but strong local opposition has really made it challenging to build a quantity of homes that is needed to address the shortage.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Gentle density, a way of building infill that's designed to minimize opposition and maximize the benefits for existing residents, is increasingly being seen as part of the solution.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Demographics, hosted by Mike Moffitt and Kara Stern.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: So cities have followed three basic paths to allow for more housing to be built.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: First, they can build out, which many have been hesitant to do over the last couple of decades on both environmental grounds and the cost of building new infrastructure.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Second, is that they can build way up by allowing taller and taller apartment buildings downtown, which cities have done, and this has helped, but the economics and layouts of high-rises makes them unable to fill every family need.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or they can add housing to existing neighborhoods, which often ends up in acrimonious political fights.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: The idea behind Gentle Density is to allow for housing to be added to existing neighborhoods in a way that reduces local opposition.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it focuses on smaller housing forms such as secondary suites, tiny homes, among others, to create more housing options, particularly ones that work for families.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we wrote a report about this a few months ago called Cornerstone to Capstone with support from our friends at the Cornerstone Association of Realtors.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll link to that report in the show notes.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we were motivated to write the report on how to make it easier to build infill housing because these days it's hard to scroll through housing news without seeing some new dispute about infill.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: For example, a few weeks ago in our group chat, we were discussing one of those projects, which is this eight-plex on Station Road in Toronto.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm in Ottawa, but Kara, you're in Toronto.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's your neck of the woods.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So what's going on with that dispute?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: There are lots of multiplexes that have caused controversy in Toronto.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: The city of Toronto did famously agree to allow sixplexes right across the city as part of their agreement with the federal government under the housing accelerator fund, but then they backtracked on that deal and only allowed it in nine wards.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you see, sometimes some plans come up where someone says we want to build this kind of multiplex in this area.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it sort of fits what the city says they want, there often is local opposition.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So the one on Station Road, it's one in Etobicoke.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: They approved it as a fourplex and they built kind of like the base of the home as a fourplex.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then partway through construction, the developer said, actually, we want to change this to an eight-plex, but we're not going to change the the how big the home is, how far it, how much of the lot it takes up.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be the exact same footprint, but then changed from four to eight units.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that caused a lot of controversy.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of local neighbors were not happy with it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And they're going from 11 bedrooms to 13 bedrooms.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: So when you think of like how many more people will it be, how much more dense will it be?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a ton.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, it means smaller units, which does change who lives there, which shouldn't really affect neighborhood support in my mind, but obviously it does.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: People look at, you know, family-sized homes different than they do one bedroom units.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: But the main thing that I think people are upset about with this one, they see it as a bit of a bait and switch.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a weird example in some ways because they see it as look, they got approved under the fourplex as of right, but they always intended it to be an A-plex, is what the allegation is.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, I don't know if that's the case.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: The developer says that is not the case.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: They said they're responding to changes in the market.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what's happening there.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: It is really close to Mimico Go station.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's one that, like, you think, well, we should have density around a train station.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's a very, it's a very good train station.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's a, it's goes to you can get to downtown Toronto really quickly.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: It comes fairly often as far as go trains go.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think it's caused some controversy because of really, I think it's about how how much they change from the from the proposal.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also a weird one where you look at it and they're taking up almost the entire lot.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I understand the neighbor's frustration, even if I'm like, we need more homes.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So more homes, good homes.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing is, like, we're seeing these fights play out all over the country, you know, sometimes at the individual project level, but sometimes at, you know, the the citywider kind of zoning level.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we we have a similar situation in Calgary, where in 2024 the city council enacted a citywide upzoning in part to comply with their housing accelerator fund agreement.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that upzoning it really didn't sit well with many local residents.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: So after the 2025 municipal election, the new council decided to roll back those rules.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: And like the vote wasn't even close.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was like 12 members voting to repeal the blanket rezoning.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Only three wanted to retain the uh upzoning rules.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, the city of Calgary kind of pulls back on it.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's gonna lead to less infill housing, and it's also probably going to lead to the city losing some of its funding from the federal government, though, you know, it's not quite clear how that's gonna play out yet.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's weird because the idea behind gentle density is that you would reduce opposition because it's not like you know, people often will get upset if a big high rise is going up in their neighborhood.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I understand that.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's one, let's say at Pape and Danforth in Toronto, where the new subway will be, where there will be a new interchange between two subway lines and it's so much bigger than anything there.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: People get upset about that.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not even in the neighborhood.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I can understand that people when they think about their homes and then they think, oh, I'm gonna be near a high rise.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I understand why that gives them a visceral response, even if it's just an initial response, and then they maybe think about whether it makes sense.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: But when you think about gentle density, the whole point is this is so minor that neighbors shouldn't really complain, but they still do.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: We have an episode on another example, like Station Road one is a one that I I was thinking is a little bit of a weird example because of the process it went through.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, we have an episode on one in Craven Road in the east end of Toronto, like that's just about garden suites, and the neighbors are still upset about garden suites.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we there's a there's lots of them in the city.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: You can look around at all the multiplex applications, and you'll often find neighbors getting really upset.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: These fights from existing residents in the neighborhoods, they make it difficult to build infill.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's led to the increased popularity of a school of thought called gentle density, which is designed to reduce, if not eliminate, the aspects of infill that local residents are most opposed to.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna give you some of the common objections to intensification.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And Mike, can you walk me through how gentle density reduces these objections?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do this.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: The first objection we have is that intensification allows buildings to be too tall, which cause them to be out of proportion with the rest of the neighborhood.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I hear this a lot.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we see that low-rise neighborhoods already have height limits, though those can be uneven across neighborhoods or even within the same neighborhood.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So if we take my neighborhood here in Ottawa, uh, there are parts of the neighborhood that have like a height limit of 10 meters, parts that have 11 meters, and it's like even on the same street, there's this kind of like invisible line.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so it creates these disparities.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, sometimes uh people or or cities will put up, you know, higher limits in certain sections.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, what gentle density does is it retains the height limits in this general range, uh, but it often standardizes them through something called form-based zoning.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't get all this kind of uneven heights all over the place or on uneven height limits all over the place.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: How does form-based zoning work?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, in your typical community, the zoning rules for low-rise neighborhoods, you know, they lay out a set of rules around, you know, how tall buildings can be, you know, how you actually measure the height of a building, because there's a bunch of different ways of doing it, how large a home can be, and so on.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what are the setbacks, all of these things?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: But for a lot of those rules, the building code essentially does the same thing.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So in Canada, building codes distinguish between large buildings, uh, which are governed by part three of the code, and small buildings, which are governed by part nine.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: So a typical suburban house is governed by part nine, which has uh height and size limits on that structure.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: What is the height limit?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's actually pretty much the same as uh my neighborhood in Ottawa.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's essentially three stories, which gets you into that kind of 11 meter range.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: But if you think about it, it's kind of weird that there's two sets of rules for height for uh a low-rise building.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: You've got like one set of rules in the building code, and you've got another set of rules in zoning.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And not only are they different, but they can actually measure height differently.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it creates a lot of red tape for like really no good reason.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we can get rid of that red tape through form-based zoning by saying, okay, let's align our zoning rules with our building code rules.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it makes sense that standardization would be pretty valuable.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: At the missing middle, we've talked a lot about how all the different rules between cities make it hard for a builder to sell homes in one city, then expand to another.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like they have to learn a whole bunch of new rules.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so that just adds time to the project and processes.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of think of it as like intercity trade barriers.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a great way of putting it.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we even interneighborhood trade barriers because the rules can differ between like one side of the street or another.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that standardization is one of the big benefits of form-based zoning.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if height requirements and other requirements are consistent among low rate rise neighborhoods, then it's a lot easier to build and design factory-built housing because you don't have to have different units for different municipalities.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going, okay, I could sell this in Brampton, but I can't sell it in Mississauga.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: You create one standard and that allows you to build homes for everywhere.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Has anywhere in Canada actually adopted form-based zoning?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you're starting to see this.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, one example is back in February, Cambridge, Ontario adopted a version of uh form-based zoning.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're saying this term a lot, which reduced the number of overall residential zones from 16 to four, with two of those zones covering low-rise residentials.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And they really try to live to the spirit of form-based zoning, but they did back off a little bit from implementing like full form-based zoning.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they still have a four-unit maximum per lot, which doesn't appear in the building code.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: They still have two low rise zones instead of one, but in other respects, such as height limits and some of the other rules, they did act in the spirit of form-based zoning by saying, look, it doesn't make sense to govern something under zoning when it's already governed under the building code.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: So sounds like that would seem to cover like the second item on my list of questions to ask you when it comes to objections, which is the size of buildings.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Specifically, we hear that the buildings are just too large and look out of place with the rest of the neighborhood or they crowd out existing homes, even if they aren't actually any taller than existing homes.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So in the case of form-based zoning, you know, part nine of the building code sets out a limit of 600 square meters for the structure, which rules out building, you know, short but very large housing structures, right?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't just build like a big townhouse complex in the middle of a single family neighborhood.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because you have to comply with part nine, that really kind of limits the types of homes and the size of homes that can be in a single family neighborhood.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: One big objection that comes up over and over, and it did in the station road fight, is how intensification leads to strain on infrastructure, particularly parking, but there's other infrastructure as well.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: So when in that one was going for from a fourplex to eightplex, people got worried about that.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Does gentle density reduce that?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it does because it limits how dense these neighborhoods can get because of those height limits and as well as setback, lot coverage rules, because you want to make sure that you have adequate green space for residents.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: You need like permeable area to prevent flooding and so on.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there's limits to how dense these neighborhoods can get.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, that limit on density is a double-edged sword because it also limits how many families can live in that neighborhood.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that's where the kind of gentle part uh comes in that these neighborhoods can only get so dense, which you know prevents some of these uh disputes around uh parking and uh you know strain on infrastructure.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Another frequent objection to infill housing, and it's that there's no benefits to existing residents, only costs.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And what happens is like an investor buys up an existing home, knocks it down, they build a multiplex, and a bunch of new residents move in, and the people who are living there beforehand maybe aren't so happy about that.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: How does the concept of gentle density change that?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's one of the big benefits because we do see that in infill that you know, that's in traditional infill, that that's how it gets created, right?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: You get a small kind of strawberry box home, and the investor buys it up, knocks it down, and puts a multiplex.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: The benefit of a gentle density zoning is you get away from thinking in terms of unit counts, you know, whether or not you can have four units or five units in a building, that kind of thing.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: But it rather is focusing around choice and giving existing residents more freedom on how they use their land.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be building a multiplex, but it could also be things like adding tiny homes or what's known as a pocket neighborhood.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So pocket neighborhood is basically you have uh a lot and you can have four or five smaller units on that lot that you know might have a central courtyard or that or that kind of thing.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say you're uh example, a homeowner, and you want to add a couple of tiny homes onto your lot to give you know your university age kids a little more privacy.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Go, okay, I've got two kids, they're both both in uni.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I want to create these kind of two uh living spaces.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can do that.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it creates more flexibility for existing homeowners rather than you know, kind of traditional infill, which is all about okay, taking a single structure and you know, subdividing it into a certain amount of units.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it gives a little bit more flexibility and creativity on the types of homes you can build, which actually advantages existing residents.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: One final objection I hear all the time is that intensification only creates homes for rent and not for ownership opportunities.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: So an infill developer will come in, they build an eight-plex, they rent out the eight units, and maybe at best they might own and live in one of the units and then rent out the other seven.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Does gentle density create opportunities for home ownership and not just rentals?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so this is an objection I hear a lot that you know, uh intensification leads to uh neighborhoods going from ownership-based neighborhoods to rental-based neighborhoods.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there is something to that.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: The concept of gentle density kind of allows for infill that's still ownership-based.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Though, you know, everything I've talked about so far on gentle density has really all been zoning based.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: This is the kind of one uh change we did where we're not talking about zoning, we're talking about other rules.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And specifically, like under the current rules to create ownership housing for anything beyond a duplex, it falls under condo regulations, right?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you want to build a fourplex or even, you know, kind of four units on a single lot, like one of these pocket neighborhoods.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Normally what has to happen is you you have to treat this as a condo, right?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: You you have to go through all the paperwork and expense of condo regulation.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: The thing is, those rules weren't really designed for small multiplexes or other small forms of infelt, right?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like they they were for you know, townhouse complexes of like 80 or 90 people or for like high-rises for 300, right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: They don't scale, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: You do as much paperwork for a four-unit condo as you do for a 400-unit condo.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, in theory, you can build multiplex infill or other types of infill and make it ownership based, but in practice, it's just prohibitively expensive.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like the rules don't really allow for that.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, so nobody really bothers.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: How can you fix that?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, we we've seen jurisdictions across North America take a bunch of different approaches.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, in British Columbia, for example, they introduced a what they call a small-scale multi-unit housing system.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, basically, they kind of retained the condo rules, but they made like a small streamlined version of them.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, you're not filling out the same paperwork, the same expense for four units as opposed to 400.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: In Oregon, another example is for gentle density housing that isn't stacked on top of each other, right?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you can think of like a ground level fourplex, a few tiny homes or whatever, they made it much easier to subdivide the land between units.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you can take an existing lot, divide it kind of four ways, and now when you buy you know one quarter of that fourplex, you're not just buying the structure, but you're actually also buying the underlying land to it.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it creates opportunities for ownership because you have those options where you know you can buy the underlying land, you can subdivide it, or if you've got units that are stacked, you you know, you still have to treat it as a condo in BC, but we've kind of streamed, they've streamlined the regulations.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of different ways of doing it, but they all kind of fall in with this kind of philosophy of gentle density, which is all around giving existing residents options and allowing infill, but not allowing that density to get to a point where existing residents go, oh, okay, I'm not comfortable with this.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that their concern about renters is overstated.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know there's a lot of times you'll hear objections to projects and they'll say, oh, well, like, you know, renters are moving into the neighborhood and that's not what this neighborhood is.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of feel like I don't really get that, especially the way the housing crisis has gone.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think that the stereotype people have about, oh, renters are gonna bring the values down.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: I like, I don't really get it.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think that, like, despite the current market, homeownership still is seen as how you kind of set roots and grow wealth in Canada.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of people who do want to own, even if they, you know, maybe would be happy renting for it for other reasons.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I I I absolutely agree.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I do think the, you know, oh, the this neighborhood is becoming too much of a rental neighborhood is overstated, is, you know, people are overly concerned about it.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I also understand that you need to meet people where where they are, right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of go, okay, is this the hill we want to die on?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: If if there is a way to meet those concerns and still get more housing built, then then I think we should do it, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: That I don't think we should try and uh allow you know the perfect to be the enemy of the good.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you know we have to kind of meet people halfway or meet people where they are, then I say let's let's do it rather than trying to convince people that no, no, it's it's all right that this you know becomes you know 40, 50, 60 percent rental neighborhood.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I just I don't think it's a fight worth having.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right now I'm renting in a neighborhood and I see when I talk to neighbors and I meet them and I say, Oh yeah, we're renting the home on the corner, they go, they're like face falls, they're like, Oh, okay, I'm not gonna invest in this friendship, I guess, because like, yeah, you're just a renter here.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I mean, for me, I'm here for a defined period of time.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I understand that in some ways, but also I'm like, I don't even get there before they start saying they look kind of disappointed and they're like, Oh, I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna bother.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's really weird.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't get it.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like it, doesn't make any sense to me.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: But, anyways, if you were gonna adopt true gentle density, it does sound like a few things do need to change, like zoning rules, condo regulations.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, how do we get there from where we are right now in our cities?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, let's start with the zoning piece.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, I think the first place we start is have the province set a gentle density minimum for low density areas across the board.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I would actually make that those rules only apply to greenfield development, like brand new lands in the outer suburbs or what have you.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Start there.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is a much easier lift.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: You can start to introduce this idea of gentle density without, you know, starting off this, you know, whole kind of system of reforms with a massive fight.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: I guess if there's no neighbors to object to it, then it's much easier to get it through.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I can certainly see the value of that because you'd eliminate a lot of red tape by having standardized zoning across the province.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it would be much easier to create those like factory-built homes, given that you know companies would be building to a single standard.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if the point of gentle density is to make it easier to build in filled, then applying it to greenfield doesn't really like let it reach its full potential, right?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's absolutely a compromise.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: But what it does is if we only apply it to greenfield, it allows us to work out the bugs, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are a lot of things we have to kind of think about.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, should maximum lot coverage ratios be you know 40%, 45, 50, that kind of thing, right?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think there are, you know, some things that need to be worked out.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a little bit easier to do that in in infill, but it also allows the general public to get comfortable with this idea that you know they can look at and go, yeah, you know what, these rules have existed for five, 10 years.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: I see those neighborhoods, they they look really nice.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that creates the political conditions where then the province could start to roll out those rules in infill neighborhoods, either just by mandating it or, you know, maybe giving municipalities incentives by saying, okay, you know, if you adopt this across the board or adopt this in like two thirds of neighborhoods, you know, maybe you get some additional infrastructure funding or something like that.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't like the idea that you have to build these homes and then wait five, ten years for other people to then be okay with it in their neighborhoods.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is that necessary?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I ideally, yeah, I'd prefer five to ten months over over over five to ten years.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I but I do think it it's a difficult lift to get this kind of across the board across the province.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'd be happy to be proven wrong there.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Some enterprising provincial politician gets that done.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be the first to uh congratulate them.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I am a little bit worried that if they go, you know, full ahead of steam on this, that it just ends in tears.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that it'll actually happen then?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I am actually cautiously optimistic because I think it makes too much sense.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, from a red tape reduction point of view, it makes sense to harmonize zoning and building code rules and harmonize zoning across municipalities.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's something you know, industry can support.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think the general public would, you know, those who actually care about this stuff can go, okay, yeah, that that makes sense.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I do think limiting it to greenfield developments limits the opposition enough that it could get passed.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And governments can always frame this about preventing neighborhoods from overdensifying, right?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, I think that gentle term is important, right?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you can frame this as saying, no, you know, we we we we hear you public, we understand you have concerns about that, so we're actually going to, you know, create some limits.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, because of that, if anything, I think the opposition is more likely to come from Yimbies than than NIMBY's.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think Yimbys may may see this as uh you know being too mild, to catering to the needs of existing homeowners, you know, kind of waving the white flag.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if anything, I I think that's where the opposition is going to come from.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be more from the Yimbys than from you know existing residents and those sorts of folks.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: I guess if they were at least making it match with like where you're allowed sixplexes in Toronto, for example, or eight plexus in Edmonton or wherever else, if you if you take it to the maximum amount that you're allowed as of right, then like maybe if it just makes easier to build, that'd be great.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, when I hear city councillors talk about we want more gentle density, I th what I hear as a YMB is oh, they uh we want to make it just like just like small changes.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's not make it too big.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm really fighting for the people, the NIMBY's who are here.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like I always think it's code for that.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully some politicians will will start taking it seriously, what you're saying, and actually like make it easier to build and not just use it as a way to kind of limit development.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think part of the the benefit of of this once you move to form-based zoning is you actually get away from the disputes around unit counts at all, right?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: That I I think so much of our discourse is you know, this kind of four versus six versus eight.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Where if you say, no, no, we're we're about limiting the the size of the buildings and and structure and then you know, however these get laid out, they get they get laid out, you know, I I think kind of avoids that.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think the discourse has been a little bit too focused on you know the unit counts and four, six, and eight.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this would help pull up pull away from that and going, no, this is this is about creating density that works in existing neighborhoods and not about setting arbitrary unit counts.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for watching and listening.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Our producer is Meredith Martin and our editor is Sean Foreman.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have any thoughts or questions about form based zoning, a term we've used 37 times in this episode, please send us an email to missing middle podcast at gmail.com.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll see you next time.