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Death to Hiking Poles · Off You Pop!

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is Off You Pop, the podcast for hikers and adventurers who want to be epic in just one day.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Today's episode is one I've been waiting for, because it's personal.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's about hiking poles.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Those clacking-clicking trail-poking accessories that half the world swears by and the other half swears at.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I fall firmly into the second camp.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think hiking poles ruin rhythm, clutter the trail, and turn perfectly good hikers into four-legged metronomes.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: But Jason, my friend, my co-host, my eternal optimist, he thinks poles are the greatest invention since breathable fabric.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: He says they save your knees, make you faster, and keep you upright when the mountain decides to tilt a little too far.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: So today we're doing it properly.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: A full debate, two hikers, one trail philosophy, and a question that somehow managed to be to be both ridiculous and absolutely essential.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do hiking poles make you better or just busier?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're a pole pusher or a pole burner, settle in.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is death to hiking poles.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And this is off you pop.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, Jason, I got a bit of a confession to make.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: I've really started to fall out of love with hiking poles.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't I don't even know where my head is at, but I'm beginning to feel like it's a big conspiracy by the hiking pole kings to sell me more hiking poles.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll I'll tell you when it all started.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: I remember we were climbing Whitney poles and everything.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I took some I took some poles with me, like like you guys did, and I had them in my backpack, and I thought, you know, when it gets steep, I'll I'll bring out the poles, but I never felt it got to the point where it was steep enough to actually use the poles, so I never used poles going up Whitney or coming back down Whitney.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt great.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we did it in such a quick time.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And after then, I've had this little like niggle in my head.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: What am I doing with these poles?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Why am I using poles?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I hate polls.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: What's going on with the polls?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And ever since then, I've sort of been weaning myself off of polls, and so I wanted to have this chat today.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Call it an intervention, Jason.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's time we had a chat about your addiction to polls because I think I think you're hurting yourself.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're hurting yourself.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: No, I love my polls, they act as a crucial safety device for me, right?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean they catch me on slips, they help me on the downhill, the slick train.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me your thoughts.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: Why are we thinking this way?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Where are you at?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you and I are both come from the world of obstacle course racing and trail running, and many years on the trails, hiking, running, doing these crazy adventures.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: I never used hiking poles until we went to Everest Base Camp.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: When we went to Everest Base Camp, we were given like a list of things we absolutely had to take with us.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things was were hiking poles.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember that?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I remember.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: I remember.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: It was number one on the list, even more so that we even Leo had me call and order lighter poles because he wanted to have the lightweight poles for the trip.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we had the lightest ones they make up on that hill.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you and I didn't know each other back then before the trip, but I'd never used hiking poles before.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I went to I went to Walmart and got a pair of uh$40 snowshoes that had poles in them.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I took to Everest.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I went up to the mountains like a couple of months before the hike just to try hiking poles.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know what I was doing, and but I felt like I had to take them with me.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was like the hiker's thing that you need to take with you when you go hiking.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So there I was at Everest having used hiking poles for I'm gonna say a 10-mile trip several months before, and they were some crappy old hiking poles that I got Walmart, and I thought I was pulling it off.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have no ultra-lightweight hiking poles, and I'll tell you, I kept them hiking poles for like three years, and they only broke when I gave them to Leo when we were in the Grand Canyon, and he snapped them.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: I got my money's worth.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've snapped a few trekking poles and hiking poles myself.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know what happened from that trip onward, that in my mind, I had to take hiking poles every time I went hiking.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was something to do with that trip that sort of ingrained it into me that if you want to be a serious hiker, you need hiking poles.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I never needed them before then.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'm trying to untrain myself and trying to understand a little bit about why people think hiking poles are the bees' knees.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because I started to realize more and more, pretty much since last year, that I don't need hiking poles.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure why I am bothering with them.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to have this debate with you because I know you love your hiking poles.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: So just tell me like why do you love the hiking poles?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just sort of gent tell us your story as you know, why you fell in love with the poles, and then we can have a a little bit of a discussion about your problem.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: I guess for me, the hiking poles, I use them almost like a crutch.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think instead of worrying about the fatigue in my legs on the downhill and everything, that I've just from starting hiking, I've always used poles.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I use them on the downhill, I use them on the uphill, I use them when I'm running on flat hill.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think they stabilize me.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think they give me better support and a better rhythm on the mountain.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'm masking a lack of training in my legs, but I feel like they give me the support and the foundation I need to find a rhythm on those technical climbs and descents that we do.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's you know, that's a that's a thing.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanna just want to ask you just a little simple question.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: When you go to the Walmart to do your shopping, Walmart is not sponsoring the show, by the way.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Do you take your polls with you?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So now we're getting there, huh?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is the angle.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna bring my Walmart shopping into it and my lack of polls at Walmart.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: No, I do not bring my polls to Walmart, sir.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: That is an interesting question.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: All right, well, let's let's really let's just break it down.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't wanna psychology on it.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: What are the polls masking for people on the mountain?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: What are they helping us with?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: All right, well, let's start first of all with like balance because I think that's a part of it, right?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: People think that well, I'm gonna let you argue that.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what what do you think about the natural balance versus the poles?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think the poles are doing to help your balance on the trail?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think for me, it's giving me four pat four four spots of of connection on the trail, right?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I got two poles, two feet on the trail at all times.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it helps me just balance my way across the rocks and the uneven terrain on the downhill, being able to have those two extra points to put on the ground to balance myself out to where I'm not falling or going head overhill, downhill on some rocks.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: But you're not a quadruped, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: You don't naturally walk on four legs.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't quite understand why that logic makes sense because when we're just walking along the street, our inner ear, you know, has a natural balance movement, our ankle stability and our mind and our, you know, our natural nervous system understands how to balance on two legs without the need of an extra two legs.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know why that is happening for you because I'm quite able to walk up and down the mountain without the poles, but feel like I'm fairly balanced and stable.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'm giving in to my pre-evolution self of walking on all fours and trying to get back to that feeling.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: I just feel more balanced and safe on the mountain with having those four contacts points.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta say this.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: This sounds arrogant.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I just have more confidence moving through the mountains because I did spend a number of years trail running up in Appalachia, and Appalachia is really sort of rocky and roody, and it's quite steep.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's not big mountain high, but it's a lot of steep downhills and steep uphills.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And as you as your body gets used to how you move through those environments, you sort of get used to it.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like you get muscle memory, you get ankle memory, you sort of are okay moving slickly through the environment.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of what I found after I started using the poles.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I don't know how to balance using the poles and moving at a pace, and it's become more and more problematic.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to balance using the poles.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's not helpful to me.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe, maybe that's just you know, uh maybe it's a runner versus a hiker mentality.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, well there's an interesting question.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's uh maybe you feel like you actually move a lot faster and technically on the mountain without the poles.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, maybe maybe people don't have confidence in themselves in the mountains.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I look at our friend Leo, the pole buster, for want of a better word.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know he's from a flat area of the country.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: He's not often out in the mountains.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I could imagine having the poles makes him feel like he's more stable when he's going downhill or even uphill.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: It sort of gives you like a like training wheels.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like that, you know what I mean?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Let me ask you this question, Philip.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: We're on the mountain, you're hiking up the mountain without your poles, and you look over there, and there's Leo and Jason hanging out, having a smile and some water, and we're hiking up the mountain with our trekking poles.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Are you viewing us different?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Are you looking at us like we have a crutch?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask you this question.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Who usually gets to the mountain up to the top of the mountain first?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: I would say historically people without poles.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Me.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's fair.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let me tell you this trick.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, let's make this comparison.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's go.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So when I when we were up in Everest Base Camp, I was talking to some of the Sherpa guides about how to efficiently move up through the mountains.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I learned a really cool trick there that I had never considered before and that has made my movement up and down the mountain much more efficiently.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: They do not have a very big stride length.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, they sort of take little half steps, but their cadence is very quick.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can imagine doing little little steps.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I explained this to an Italian guy when I was hiking in Peru, and that's exactly how I described it, because we were we had a little bit of a language barrier.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was trying to explain it.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's he's like kind of got what I was telling me.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he said it's kind of like that's exactly right.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're not, you don't have a large stride length.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: You keep your feet right planted underneath you.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you think about the amount of weight those Sherpers are carrying on their backs, they're carrying like five people's rug sacks, for goodness sake.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And when you look at them going up the mountain, they're going, they've got tiny steps because they're trying to keep the load underneath underneath their their center of gravity.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really the trick to going up the mountain.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's not over striding, it's the cadence of your small steps.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not stretching the muscles out in your calves, you're not over striding, you're not creating mechanical issues by pushing that load inappropriately through your body.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: You're really keeping a center of gravity under you.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I noticed about the Sherpa.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to tell you, tell me this.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: How many Sherpas did you see with hiking poles?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: None.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think the only one I seen with the hiking pole was an old man, and it wasn't a hiking pole.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: He was carrying five times the amount of weight I was, and he had a cane, I think, and he was walking up the mountain with just a cane.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Little tiny wooden cane.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: You just barely put it on the ground.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's an interesting thought.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost sounds like what you're saying is the evolution of the involvement of the hiking pole is teaching people to hike the trails in a properly.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's giving them like a little false sense of security, gives them this sort of sense of uh mobility.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So now if you think about, let's talk about uphill first.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: So when you go uphill and you're you're you're putting the poles in front of you and you're putting your weight on the poles, depending on how far you put the poles in front of you, you kind of I think it makes you extend your stride more because you've got the balance of the of that pole.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: So now you're stretching your muscles out further.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now the argument is I'm not putting as much weight on those muscles, but you're still stretching them further, like you're still creating a little bit of stress and it's not a natural movement.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Fair, fair.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: But then you when you come downhill, that's this is the big thing everybody argues, but downhill it's saving my knees.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm gonna argue contrary to that as well.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think people don't know how to move down the mountain.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I move down a mountain, I move with gravity, I allow gravity to take me down the mountain.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't force it.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm moving effortlessly down the mountain.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And when I move effortlessly down the mountain, I may not be walking, I may be jogging a little bit because the gravity is taking me down.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: And when I'm moving down the mountain, I am moving softly.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: I am almost sort of doing a plyometric movement down the mountain, making sure that my body is absorbing appropriately, you know, all the shock from stepping down.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than breaking and even using the poles to break, I'm letting the mountain carry me down and I'm sort of dancing a little bit down the mountain, my knees are bent appropriately.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm letting the shock come up through my knees, up into my glutes to take the appropriate amount of stress and move it through my my chain, you know, my kinetic chain down there.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not causing stress in my knees at all.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I think when you got the poles, what you're doing is you're sticking the poles in front of you, you're bending forward and you're actually putting more weight in some ways on your on your knees.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, people feel like it's not hurting their knees, but it's not moving right either.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's kind of weird and awkward.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: I on the longer hikes, I mean, we both know that I maximize pole use, that my upper body is definitely my stronger portion that I'm utilizing on the trail.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm probably masking my injuries and a lot of things that just have come up throughout the years.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: But the interesting part that you're talking about is my poles have saved my face numerous times on the downhill where I've lost control or I've lost my footing.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I've snapped a couple poles in this instant.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I we did I snapped one in Arizona on the second peak.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was what, telescope peak that we did this second day, and I was coming down.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: But there and it kind of sits in between both of our arguments.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Is the poll helping me mask things that I haven't trained and developed properly?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it protecting me from injuries that I have that where I'm going to attack this downhill and push my body to its outer limits to where it's like?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, those that's two things, right?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing is it is it is it helping me with some injury that I have?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I gotta say, yeah, maybe if you've got like a broken foot, you're gonna get crutches, right?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's good that's a great idea.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes the poles are good.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I I will actually cross over to your argument a little bit, because if you are an older hiker and maybe you've got some half-rider, some some knee injury or some hip injury, I say use the pole for sure.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because it is, you know, you're injured, and I think the poles work great if you're needing some sort of crutch.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess Jason, I said, yeah, if you're injured, use your crutches, you know.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: But you're not injured, you're just an average healthy hiker.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you need the crutches?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think what you're actually doing is making yourself weaker.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the second question I was getting to.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's like maybe that's the problem.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe the use of the the poles is masking the rehabilitation of the muscles I need to be able to perform that stuff properly, right?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think about the the the analogy I think of or the comparison is the modern shoe.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like modern shoes are so overcushioned that they are causing problems with the way that people walk.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they're actually causing all of these problems, particularly runners, they say they've got knee problems and hip problems, it's because they're wearing shoes that put them in an unnatural position and then cause weaknesses that then cause them injuries, that then require them to have orthotics, which makes it even worse.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like if people primarily used to using hiking poles and they've been doing it for a long time, and they went to try and convert to not using hiking poles, they would have the same problem that those runners have that have been using crappy shoes that try to go to minimal shoes.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because I think it would change the way that they walk and they'll realize they don't have the leg strength or the ankle mobility that they would have had if they had been doing all that hiking without the poles.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's gonna take them time to transition to not having poles because they become weak.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that you're weak, Jason, but I am I'm kind of saying it.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: I feel the pain.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about this a little bit more.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna walk barefoot on the mountain?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm considering it.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just asking, I mean, I'm trying to figure out how much of my stuff I gotta give up now.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, next you're gonna have me in a dang grocery bag.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk, let's talk about that a little bit, just because you brought it up.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I I recently went up up Fuji and I wear minimal shoes.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's I'm I'm a bit minimalist in that way anyway.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And when I when I started wearing minimal shoes, it took me a little while to get used to them.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I could uh I like pull back on the miles.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I took several months building up so that my muscles would get used to wearing them, which is kind of my point with the polls.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: But now you bought a barefoot.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I thought about going barefoot up a Fuji because it's a very spiritual place.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the original monks that were going up there were doing like these sort of suffering ways of doing it, like climbing up with no shoes on or going across hot coals.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that would be so cool to do, but I didn't do it.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: My feet are not tough enough to do it.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's not to do with my ankle mobility or the way I'm walking, that's just like the skin on my feet is is kind of weak because it's not used to walking barefoot.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I was climbing locally up a mountain up here, like a 10,000-foot mountain.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm coming up the mountain quite early in the morning, and as I'm getting towards the top, I see that there's these human footprints in the dust, like toes, and you see the outline of a foot.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, oh, some idiots wearing those like vibrum toe shoes coming out.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm getting I'm getting up the top and I see this guy in front of me.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: He's got like jeans on, a cowboy hat.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: As I'm getting closer, I realize he's got his boots in his his hand.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: He's climbing the mountain barefoot with a cowboy in jeans.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what is he doing?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I I had to give him kudos for doing it.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So there are people out there who are brave enough to go barefoot, and why why not, right?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's how it we started.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Shoes are a new thing, and these sort of comfort modern shoes that are compensating for your inadequacies are even newer.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: To your point, not to get off on the sidetrack, but I agree with you 100% on the shoes.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I went to the thicker, cushiony, elevated shoes, and man, they're great to wear every day, aren't they?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: But you put them on to go hike in them, and they're just they're just different.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then when I went back to the, you know, the flat zero gravity type shoes on the ground, they weren't comfortable at first.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: But once you get on the trail, your feet perform well in 'em because it's what they're designed for.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I had to move away from those over cushiony shoes just because I felt like it was hampering my development and was making Taking me a week or on the trail.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So what happened to me this year, like after Whitney?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like then winter came and we had a break and we got back to hiking again in the spring.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: I started out with poles when we went down to Palm Springs.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Just because I thought I needed poles, because everybody has poles and it will make me feel better.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because we were doing it was a long day, like 22-mile day, and I'll feel better about it.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: And sure, I used them and it was all right and I felt okay.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: But then after that, I started to ditch them, especially on like a you know a shorter four or five hour hike.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the first time I went out off trail up a local mountain, maybe like 8,000 feet, seven miles, came back down the mountain.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like the next day, my legs were killing me.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I should have used poles.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: What am I thinking?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the next time I went out, I went, I just can't get back into using the poles.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: It felt so good to come off that mountain, navigating through the rock and the scree without the poles.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say it was a couple of weeks later.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't use the pole, very similar mountain profile, seven to ten miles, I think like three to four thousand feet gain.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Next day, muscles didn't hurt as much.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you, I went out last weekend.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I climbed, I did like a 11-mile hike, maybe 3,200 feet again, out and back, no pain whatsoever.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just flying down the mountain, loving it.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Free from poles, no stress of the pole.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was a beautiful hike.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: So do you feel that you're getting stronger without the use of poles?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because I feel that I'm stronger with the poles.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the things that I did realize over the last three or four hikes that we've done, that especially the T5, when we started the T5, I kind of felt like my poles were just like they were more of a hindrance than helping me.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: I felt like I was struggling with trying to find a place for them in the smaller hikes and trying to be in and out and different things like that.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I also wondered if they were hampering on my development of, you know, that downhill strength that I'm looking for to be able to run full speed and not have to have a poles to supplement my strength and stuff like that.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so there's a little bit of a trade-off there, right?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're carrying the poles because you think they're gonna save you something.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: But now both of my hands are tied up with poles.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to deal with poles.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: One, it's a bit inconvenient if you've got like a long flat stretch.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: What am I just I'm just I find myself just carrying the poles.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just annoying.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta carry the poles.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Or I gotta take my backpack off and stow them and then get them back out again, which is kind of annoying, I think.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I like make them shorty and then carry them shorty, but then I just don't need them.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes I'll come off the mountain and like I don't need them.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'll make them shorty.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just carrying them all the way to the trailer.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, well now I've I've lost a hand or I've lost two hands because I'm just carrying them just because.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Let me ask you one quick question before you go on with your story, because it it fits into your story.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: What was the number one item that people left behind on Mount Everest every time we stopped to take a break?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, they lost the damn poles.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: How many times did we backtrack to go get hiking poles?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's why you don't like hiking poles because you're tired of going and getting them back up and down Mount Everest, man.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: That just makes sorry, I'm supposed to be pro hiking poles, but that's my only negative.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: It was how many times we had to go back and get those darn things.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: So so when you get up to high altitude, it's shoulder season, it's a little chillier and colder.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think the poles become more of a hindrance because if you got to get something, now it becomes a bit of an ordeal.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now I've got to deal with the poles to get something out of my pockets, and my hands are kind of numb and it's chilly and it's windy, and got the poles to deal with and the gloves to deal with, and I've got to get the thing and then gotta bring the coat, but it's just like such a faft with the poles, you know.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's crazy because I love my poles, but if they're not in my hand in the dirt, they're always in the way.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and on the last trip, I used them the whole entire time, or I had them in my hands the whole entire time, but I wasn't utilizing them, like especially when we did cactus the clouds and stuff.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: And what I realized is I came back with these aches in my wrist.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's from holding the pole up in the air and not having it in the ground, but just carrying them.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I really man, I was really developing some pains in my forearm and stuff, and I was starting to wonder if I could figure out a way to start winging myself off those puppies or finding a different thing.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about we did miss a piece because you brought something up just a little bit earlier.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: The safety of the pole.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: The pole makes me feel safe.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: It saves my butt.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's what you said.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: It saved my butt on so many occasions.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Saved my face many times, man.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, tell me about when it saved your face.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, we were coming down telescope peak and I'm flying full speed and seen an area I thought I could put my pole, and the pole slid in between the two rocks, and I was going full speed and just snapped it right in half.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: The lightweight ones break instantly.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: Those carbon fiber doesn't hold up.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: How did that save your face?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because my face was going straight for the rock, man.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know it's not pretty, but it's all I got.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta take care of it, man.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, in that instance, I mean, I could see where maybe my hand would have gone down sooner and I would have been okay too.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I felt in that moment that the poles protected me because I get very laxadaisical on my downhill.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm normally exhausted because I'm not the fastest climber, but I love to run the downhill.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: I love to attack the downhill with authority.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, like I said before, I didn't start out as a serious hiker.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: I did more trail running.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I did my favorite thing to do was trail run down a mountain.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: No poles, just run down a mountain.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: I never fell off the side.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I maybe fell over once or twice, but you know what?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: When I fell over, I had these things at the end of my arms that were able to break my fall.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Stubs?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: My issue is my issue with the pole is what if I fall forward and I got the the poles in my hand?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: What's gonna happen?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna and what am I what is my reaction gonna be with the pole in my hand?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna get in the way?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Am I gonna like fall on my stubs?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Am I gonna try and somehow do I think the poles are am I gonna break that fall?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: You just proved to me that they wouldn't, that they would snap.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe you're trying to tell me that I need to ditch the hiking poles and go for a helmet instead.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, but I'll tell you, I felt like hiking poles have been more of a problem than they've ever saved me.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Part of the reason is I think when I'm using poles, I put them in into places like you like you did.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: You jammed it in between two rocks.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if you slip or you move forward and this the pole doesn't move forward, it wrenches back your shoulder and causes you to trip and fall.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And when that happens, you're hanging on to the thing and it really can mess up your shoulder.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's happened to me a couple of times, and that's been really problematic.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I hate it for that.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're gonna go on like class three, class four scramble, they're no they're no good.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: You can't take poles up on loose rock up a steep, loose scree run, they're no good whatsoever, they're just in the way.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I gotta I gotta bring this up, right?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's a thing going around the internet right now about this guy who's got impaled by a hiking pole.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't believe you.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't see that?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't believe you.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: There is a guy who got impaled through like his chest, like in the front and out the back, and he's standing there with a hiking pole through his his torso.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: How did that happen?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he was coming downhill, he slipped, and the hiking pole straight through.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean it's all over.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, come on.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, now I don't want hiking poles.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want a hiking pole permanently.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't have to carry that one, he's got a perfect spot for it.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: So just a just a few a few examples of some of the injuries that I think can happen with hiking poles, and I think there are some problems with hiking poles and moving at speed because if you hit hard rock with the pole and not dirt, it doesn't like get traction in the in the granite and it kind of slips off.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: Skips off, doesn't it?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know about your safety argument.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I I keep reading online too.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been doing a little bit of research before this show about the wonders of the hiking pole.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I just disagree with with most of the arguments, particularly the injury one, because I think they're actually more dangerous than than the benefit that you've you've said about stopping you slipping, because like I said, I probably ran 30, 40 mountains downhill at speed without hiking poles and just trip once, and it was a stupid trip too.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: But uh the hiking pole.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have a hiking pole, I didn't like die.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: I guess for me, I feel like the poles at times mask my fatigue for me, right?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm tired, my legs are exhausted, or you know, the whole nine yards.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Why are your legs exhausted?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: You got your poles.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want to talk about mental fatigue because this was another issue that I had.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm walking along no poles, right?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta watch where my feet are.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now I got the poles, I gotta watch where the poles are and where my feet are.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like twice as much mental energy to navigate through the mountain.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: In my in my mind, and I I tried this last weekend when I went hiking.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was like thinking about it, you know, when I'm hiking with the poles, when I'm hiking uphill, I'm I'm my face is down.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Where should I put the pole?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I get the best traction when I put the pole in front of me, you know?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then conversely on the downhill, where should I plant the pole for the best?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then my feet have to follow it too.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So where am I putting my feet?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like twice as much mental effort in my mind to manage the pole.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm coming down the mountain on the north side of Tahoe.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're about 9,200 feet.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm coming down the steep part of the mountain.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not particularly rocky terrain, but I'm thinking about mentally what's happening to me.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm not using the pole.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm used to coming down the mountain.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: My feet know underfoot what is going on, you know.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: That I've got that muscle memory in my ankle and my foot.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to concentrate very much on where I'm stepping and where I'm going and where I'm putting the poles.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm enjoying coming down the mountain.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking around and enjoying the scenery while moving at pace down the mountain.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't have that cognitive overload of where do I put the poles, where do I put the feet.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm focusing on the where I am and just being.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a problem with a pole because of that reason too.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: I feel it disconnects me from the mountain in some way because it's creating this cognitive overload.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: So while you're saying it's making a crutch, I think it's contributing to your fatigue.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: And what I would say is for someone like myself who struggles with seeing the end in the summit and back, that sometimes just being able to focus on that one step in front of you at a time helps keep me motivated and focused on the mountain.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you like that sort of tunnel.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing the grind.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's the grind for me.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I think that though speaks to a different question of mental state and and mental preparation and how you prepare for the mountain and each person's doing something a little bit different.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, the struggle really is in the steps.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure I could come up with something else to take that spot.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: But having those little things of constantly having to put the pole down, even more so because I'm constantly normally behind you on the way up, and even on the way down, if I am leading the way down, I'm normally looking at the original trekking pole holes on the ground.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: As crazy as that sounds, I'm looking when I get lost, I start trying to find trekking poles and footprints in the ground.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like Hansel, Hansel and Gretel, you're following it.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm literally looking for like, oh, those look like mine.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I could see, but for me, having those small increments of things to do to where my mind doesn't start to wander off into long, long.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I get in the I get in that in that zone too.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I deliberately put myself in like the head down march and you've got a long, steep climb in front of you, and you just don't want to you don't want to look at how far up you've got to go.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: You just want to focus.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I get the poles can sort of help you get hit your head down, but isn't that the wrong posture?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that well that yeah, well, now you're now that's a fair statement.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now we're talking about posture and proper technique on the hill and protecting.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to talk a little bit about symmetry, right?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because one important thing to consider about when you're hiking is how your body is moving, how your legs are moving at a certain cadence and stride, and how your arms are working with your body.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: So the natural state, we weren't born with poles.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the poles are kind of creating this counterbalance at the end of your arms.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you cannot tell me when you're going on the mountain, you're using poles, you're doing this sort of thing where you've got both poles exactly the same in front of you, and you're planning them exactly the same in front of you.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you're creating a symmetry with the pole, you're doing this weird thing with the poles.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: You are watching where you're planning the poles, and it's asymmetrical.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: You can't help it because of the terrain.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I I don't have that problem.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: I can still maintain the swing of my arms and move through nature more symmetrically than I think you can with the poles because you've got a the poles is it's just it just it's just awkward.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm just bad at poles.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's the problem.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't know how to use them.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, maybe you're just a singer who can't sing and play the guitar at the same time.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: I understand what you're saying, but for me, I get in a flow with alternating the poles.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: I guess to your point, you're saying it's an unnatural movement of the body, and it's probably why I end up with a few aches and pains at the end of our ice and different joints.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, I still think I'm I'm leaning on it like it's a crutch and and it's a mechanism for me to get through the hard times.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about your little holes in the trail.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: So if we purport to believe in leave no trace, and you've got your little little spikes you're sticking on a trail, are you leaving a trace?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: No more than your shoe that's not flat bottom that has terrain built into it.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're both but you've also got the shoe.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Plus I do.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: But with my pole, my shoe's going less of a distance into the ground.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm trading less than an inch.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: Slightly.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: At least I didn't test that theory, but that's what type of one I'm coming up with off the fly.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: Interestingly, when I'm walking along a trail and like it's early season, I'm trying to figure out if anybody's been on the trail, I will look for those little holes outside the trail to see if anybody's been up there recently.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because uh a shoe print can wash away quite easily, but those little holes are a little deeper.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it can indicate that, oh yeah, people have been up here recently.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then I also feel like one of the bigger issues that we run into.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Hiking poles, you you would agree on some instances are good for some people on the mountain that could be using them, whether it's for injuries, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: But the problem is it's like a lot of great tools that we get developed into the hiking community or camping community, is they're created, but there's not any really proper training on how to utilize them the right way.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: I whether you're pro or against hiking poles, we can both say that we're on the mountain and we see multiple people using them improperly.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really one of the biggest issues I have with it is the improper use of the poles is just creating to a long-term effect on them to where they're not going to truly enjoy the experience on the mountain.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's one of the biggest issues that we run in with that stuff.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to turn the conversation to let me meet you in the middle somewhere.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: And by in the middle, I mean I'll move slightly.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, uh, sure, there are times when I can see the pole potentially being advantageous, but I would say the pole as an extra tool that I take with me to deal with specific circumstances.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say if you're injured and you still want to go hiking, maybe you have some sort of chronic injury, the tendinopathy, a knee thing you're dealing with, a hip thing you're dealing with.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: For injury management, it's a crutch.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Take it, love it.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Still get outside, still enjoying it, and this is helping you manage your injury.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: But that's one of the main reasons you would always use a hike on a trail.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: You always use the poles while you're hiking for the whole hike, is because you're injured.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, I think they're just a tool that you can whip out and use in specific circumstances.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'll give you some specific circumstances.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Swift water crossings.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: I can see that having the poles are gonna help you make that navigation and give you a little bit more stability.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can't see the bottom of the creek very well, it's pretty unstable.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: The water is pushing against you.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: You can use those poles to give yourself a little bit more leverage.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: Snow, navigating the snow.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I did take poles, I do take poles if I'm gonna be shoulder season.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting into a bit of a snow bank, maybe I got a whip out, you know, the micro spikes.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I use the poles not for the reasons you've been saying, like save me from falling over.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's because I want to test the snow in front of me to make sure I'm not about to fall down a huge crevass that's been snowed over.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like a it's like a measuring stick.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I'm using the pole.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I could make an argument for if you're carrying really heavy loads for long distances, okay, maybe the pole will help you a little bit.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm talking like you're carrying more than 50 pounds.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking, I'm carrying 20 pounds.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: I've been on some long distance hikes with some heavy weight.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if the polls helped or not, but people say that they do if you're if you're doing backpacking over long distances.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: I tend to not do that.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: I tend to do day hikes, long day hikes, but it's just one day.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the military stays away from it, right?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: And they're doing it.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's true.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what are the people in the army doing, Jason?
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: 50 to 75 pound rucks at 12 to 22 mile increments, and they're not doing no hiking poles, no nothing.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: They're just carrying rucks and boots and keeping a pace of about a flippin' 20 to 25 minute mile.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so then we get this straight.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: The military doesn't see the need for you us to have hiking bowls, and yet we civilians think with our our gentle pace and our light backpacks that we need a hiking pole.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I was trying to meet you in the middle.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's okay.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, what you're trying to say is when I got out of the military and they took my dog tags away from me, they gave me hiking poles and said, Here you go.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: You're no longer in the military, buddy.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need this, and I mean, and there are some places where you absolutely should not be using poles, and I see people using them all the time.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start with scrambling.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: You get up class three, four rocks, loose boulders, steep incline, put them poles away.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: I took a I took a couple up and arlie screw and then I put the poles away, and the woman's like got the poles.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you doing, woman?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna fall over and die.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I convinced her to put the poles away, thankfully, and she made it.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: But ooh, why are you using poles when it's flat?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: What is the advantage that you are trying to sell me when it's completely flat?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: I see Leo doing this all the time.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Completely flat.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: There he is with the poles.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what are you doing, man?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's flat.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm wrong.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that they're they're getting into that zone to where they're running, but they're not running.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: They're they're moving at a slow jog without having to put the effort in.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I would be interested to see what type of effort you're putting in by using the poles and the legs instead of just your legs alone.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: That would have to be a whole different test.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm gonna tell you this because I have the answer for you.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: So you are using more energy and you are burning more calories when you are using the poles.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: And part of the reason is that your heart is pumping your blood to your arms and your legs, not just your legs, because you're using like you're leaning on the pot, you're using your muscles in your arms and in your legs at the same time.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's increasing your heart rate and it's causing you to burn more calories.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't see that one come in, did you?
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: But that's what I'm trying to do.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to burn calories and lose weight.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, fairly that's why I use both.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: But that's that's the goal.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: And this other one, I what about when you bushwhack?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: Poles, no poles.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think no poles.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: You you could I mean, I think you gotta have your f hands fully available, right?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you work in the bushes with one type of cutting device and you're trying to handle the bushes from smacking you in the face with the other hand.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: So did I convince you death to hiking poles?
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Are you still going to be feigning injury, wanting to be like a beginner hiker whose legs can't handle it, doesn't know how to move through the terrain, is gradually getting weaker and weaker, whose bone density is slowly dropping off because I have the crutch of the hiking pole ruining my technique, making me unable to enjoy nature because I'm so focused on the poles that I can see nothing else around me.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're trying to tell me?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think, yeah, your argument doesn't sway me.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: The only thing that you've done that has swayed me, I it's opened my eyes to realize that I don't want to be that guy with the hiking pole sticking out the side of me as I'm walking down the mountain trying to find my buddies.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what the heck happened to me?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: How'd I get a hiking pole stuck in the side of me?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then all I'm gonna hear about is damn Phillip in the podcast.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: I told you, you should stop flipping using hiking poles.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you have a story to tell.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think the one thing that you got me on is that I could agree that I think hiking poles are masking the development of all the muscles that you need to successfully climb and ascend down the mountain.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know me running down the mountain, my legs get just exhausted.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I know it's because I'm just pushing them.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pushing them that I think you said it in one of your reports or one of your podcasts before that breaking on the downhill, right?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: That muscle sequence to be able to break yourself as you're going downhill is is something that I I I thrive on, and I'm wondering if I'm underdeveloping it by using the poles when I should be really focusing on that as one of the things I want to develop the most.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm sure the the pole manufacturers will be calling and to market their poles, but I will not.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so no more poles for you.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: It makes for an easy adjustment, though.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think what I will do, I have a local loop here close to my house.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's 14, 15 miles up and back, but I normally hike it with poles, but it's all asphalt.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's absolutely no reason to have hiking poles on it.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: None.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's no looseness, there's no road, it's elevation and all of that fun stuff.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I will put a honest effort into it without the poles, and I will give you my overview and tell you how I feel once I'm all said and done.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I think well, that's that's that's being open-minded.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I will take the polls when I feel like there's a need to take the poles as a tool.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I will probably continue to take the poles in my backpack as a as sort of a backup weapon, should I need them.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I need to uh have an impromptu fishing pole.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I need to make a tent.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks, Jason.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've enjoyed the debate.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you agree with me.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Deft hiking poles now.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: Off you pop.