Latest / Skin Anarchy / Ethical Standards and the Push for Ingredient Integrity in Skincare Formulation with Christina Mahar of Craft Beauty Labs

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Ethical Standards and the Push for Ingredient Integrity in Skincare Formulation with Christina Mahar of Craft Beauty Labs · Skin Anarchy

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, welcome back to Stinker Anarchy.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is your host, Ekta, and I have a fabulous guest with me today.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: She is truly just a remarkable entrepreneur and has such an impressive background, but she's also the founder of one of the best beauty labs and the manufacturing labs that I've come across in the recent years that I've been hosting Stinker Anarchy.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really excited to chat with her today and learn from her about the manufacturing world, learn about you know where our beauty products are made and you know what goes behind all of that from the angle of manufacturing.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to the founder of Craft Beauty Labs, Christina Mahar.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the show, Christina.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so honored to be hosting you.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Ecta.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to be on here.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's an honor to get to actually be on the show and to find out that there's so many people interested in kind of more in-depth and behind-the-scenes parts of the beauty industry.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I, for everyone listening, we were Christina and I were chatting about that before the show.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's crazy how much you realize that people actually think like us, Christina.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: They want to know more, you know?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a really cool feeling.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you for your kind words.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to get started by actually you telling us a little bit about your amazing background because you've done so much cool stuff.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to learn from you like everything, everything that's gone on before.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Might just be more a factor of being old at this point.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: How many things have you done?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I really fell into the beauty industry when I was very young.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing my undergraduate and became the part owner of this little teeny kind of you know kitchen sink company that was making tinctures and salves and fragrances and stuff like that.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: We got super, super fortunate.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Just we had five wholesale accounts.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: We're kind of like that little the dream, you know, that everyone does have on the front end of the beauty industry as a brand.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: We had five wholesale accounts.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: One of them was Bread and Circus in Boston, Massachusetts, which turned into the very first Whole Foods.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we just got really fortunate with growing right along with them until we had about 1,200 wholesale outlets across the country.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I eventually sold my shares in that company and I had started kind of doing some work because I had come out of the more natural side, actually, which is unusual, more natural side of the skincare formulating industry.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'd gone back and did a bunch of cosmetics chemistry and was doing some work with a lab that does like reverse engineering to make generics for a little while.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Then I had started another little brand that was more in the skincare phase space.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really just making formulas that I loved at that point, basically.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, in doing that, I realized a lot too that I was like, oh, I really don't the marketing and sales side.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I really love the actual process side and the making of the formulas and making of products and things like that.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: And got really fortunate again to be, you know, you just kind of do the work steady for a lot of years and get good at what you do, and then you get lucky, right?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: But fortunate to have a woman who had a house of brands approach me.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: She had a distribution in Ulta, and that kind of actually is what started Craft Beauty Lab, where we started actually making formulas and products for all sorts of beauty brands.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them aren't even beauty brands, some of them are body and muscle and you know, pet, and you know, we do kind of kind of a variety of things, but we've always been actually from the start, kind of more in that clean beauty space.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that's how craft started out, and here we are.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's amazing.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that you have such a diverse background because I think business is hard regardless, you know, whatever sector you're in.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: But especially when I look at the beauty industry, I feel like it's hard because of a lot of the misinformation out here.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think from the perspective that you're coming from, I'm very intrigued because you've kind of seen a lot of the things that many of us don't really get to understand, which is how do things really get made?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's and that's where I get lost as a consumer because when I pick up a serum or something, I'm always like, hmm, do I believe you that this is in here?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of thing.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like I always get suspicious if I'm buying it from maybe an off-brand or something.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I really want to chat with you a little bit about this concept of things.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: For example, clean beauty, right?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a big word, and there's a whole movement around it.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at craft, you guys do a lot of clean formulations, is from my understanding.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to learn about that from you.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you had to define it and put it in print somewhere.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how would you define clean beauty?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't think I have a definition for it.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, well, that's such, like you said, it's such a big word.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the bottom line of that is there isn't one definition, right?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a legal regulation, the word clean beauty.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Typically for us, what it means is that the types of brands that reach out and want to work with us is because they have a commitment in their company to doing basically something that equals cleaner, right?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so then a lot of times what we do when we're starting with brands is it's just really having them hone in on what is that definition for them and what does that mean.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: But typically for me, what it means is that we're not using synthetic fragrances.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really big one because fragrance is still a trade secret in the industry, which means it's regulated as a trade secret.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: You don't actually have to disclose the ingredients in your fragrances.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where you can find kind of anything and everything can be actually put into the fragrance before it's stuck into your product and you really have no idea what it is.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of one of the bigger ones.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: All the other ones, you know, we're more willing to work with some of the more natural and newer preservative systems than some manufacturers are going to be.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: We like to work with more natural ingredients in general, essential oils and plant-based components and things like that.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: But what I always will talk to people about too is I'm just like, you have to respect that if you think natural works, which it totally does.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, 89% of our prescription drugs are actually still derivatives of natural plants and things like that.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: They were discovered that way, right?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, nature totally works, but you have to respect it on the other side too, that it can actually equally be dangerous as well.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just, it's not a cure all this to say it's natural, right?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So to kind of get back to that original question, what is clean beauty mean to me?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Clean beauty means to me is essentially a formula that I'm gonna say starts first with do no harm.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we really try to work with our brands and in our formulations to kind of be like, what's the real science, right?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more complicated sometimes than just does it contain this or not contain that?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because most ingredients are kind of going to be at a threshold level, right?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: So like some ingredients are totally fine if they're 0.25% of your formula and they're not fine at 2% of your formula.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so we work with brands on some of those types of concepts, but also just always kind of staying really open to looking at it from the what is the latest research on this?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: What do we really see?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: And is it good science, right?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's so much in this industry, too, of things can get a really bad rap that aren't actually bad for you either.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, because there's always this like I call it the beauty industry is very driven by the what's next.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's always some ingredient that needs to be vilified and some new ingredient that's amazing.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And five years down the road, that's the new vilified ingredient.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, it's a misconception, right?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Christina, because it's like people think that that's balance, but that's like counterbalance, in my opinion.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I hate when people do that where it's like a new ingredient pops up.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: We have a new ingredient, but you have to get rid of the old one.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like that.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and it's and this is a lot of hype.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, for us, is it's really just trying to do our best to educate our clients who are other brands about what we really see.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is this new ingredient really the most amazing thing ever?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times the answer to that is no, too.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's just new.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes occasionally, you know, really fantastic new things do come on the market and you really want to be incorporating them.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Really, it's just a lot of education and it's a lot of really looking at the research instead of doing the knee-jerk reaction of it's bad or it's all bad or it's all good.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's not as sexy as it's good and bad.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at the end of the day, though, I think science is always sexy.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let me just say that.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because I clients is always sexy.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And but the thing is that I find it to be so interesting when I look at like the way I've perceived clean beauty, you know, just as a consumer, you know, because I resonate a lot with what you said.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And as a consumer, whenever I looked at clean beauty, I was always like, before the podcast, I used to think, like, okay, this is all just it's fluff.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's not founded in efficacy, it's not founded in the hard testing that we usually are used to in science.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was something that I had to debunk for myself, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: For me as a consumer, because I realized, no, Ecta, there's a lot of clean brands out here that are doing things that are very scientific.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that they're not putting certain things in there that might actually cause damage from their understanding or something like that.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been a journey, I think, for me too, as a consumer to understand it.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that's always stood out is that at the end of the day, if you're gonna be creating any kind of a product, you're gonna have to have some level of science behind it, regardless.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do it where it's like you've made it in a kitchen and that's it.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't have preservatives or whatever in there to actually make the formula worthwhile to bottle up and you know.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really big one.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I mean, that whole preservative conversation goes on for a while.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, things need preservatives if they have water or water phases in them.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think thinking about the ingredients, you know, situation in general and you know, clean bees, I really equate it with skincare similar to what I'm gonna say, like just with food, which is sort of like the level of sort of toxic ingredients just in general in the world right now, whether that is in your food, in your clothes, in your skincare, is I think that there is a real benefit to minimizing what you can, and in that skincare should be part of that, should be part of the healthier reality.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: We don't need things with microplastics in them.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: We don't need things with fragrances that have 256 other ingredients.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know what they are in them.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need some of these funky colorants in your food or your skincare.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: But also, you really do want to respect science as far as it doesn't have a good shelf life.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it has to have a preservative system in it.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Preservatives get vilified all the time, right?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm kind of just equating it to what they are designed to do is kill things, right?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: They kill microbes and germs and bacteria and fungus and things like that.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you need them if you have any kind of water phase in any formula, so you don't have those things in it.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: But if they work, it's you can take a preservative, put it in a petri dish, and put things in there.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's at 100% preservative, it's gonna kill everything.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it's not good at that percentage, right?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: But in a skincare formula, typically a preservative is either from 0.25% to maybe a maximum of two, three percent of a formula.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: And typically it's 0.25, 0.5, 0.75%.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And most preservatives are pretty much fine at that percentage.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, staying away from the methyl and propylparabin, I'll honestly think very few formulas, even still formulating with those preservatives.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a whole slew of good preservatives, but it's like the easiest ingredient to vilify anytime a big brand comes out with some kind of new concept.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so they'll vilify whatever the latest natural preservative or more natural or more healthy preservative was so that they can kind of promote their new healthier preservative.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just see that happening all the time in the industry.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really hard for consumers to kind of figure out what is or isn't really.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean that makes sense to me because honestly, like, and I do have a follow-up question for you because when I think of preservatives, it's very different, I think, than we think of than I'm sure that you see, you know, in the manufacturing world.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my big questions is how do you determine if it's like at the right concentration?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Is there like a species of bacteria that you're looking for that it's killing off, or at this rate it won't let fungus grow?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or what is that benchmark to decide like this is how much we need for it to be considered a truly good preservative in an over-the-counter product or something that's going to be sitting on a shelf for six months?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, best practice, which should be the standard, and sometimes this gets shortcutted, and that's why you can end up seeing issues happening.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, best practice is that every modification of a formula, meaning anytime you change anything in it, you're doing a 12-week stability test, which is essentially that mimics a two-year shelf life.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so a 12-week stability test will be taking the formula and putting it under heat to degrade it more quickly and then seeing what happens.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you do a full panel of microbe testing on it at four and 12 weeks.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And what you're looking for is no growth in bacteria, no growth in yeast and mold, basically in that time frame.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where you get the whole it has a two-year shelf life.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the standard for the industry is to formulate to a two-year shelf life.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: We would want everything to be able to be safe for at least a two-year period because there's a pretty long basis from when I make your product to it goes to you, then you know you ship it to your stores, then it's sitting on the store, then the customer buys it.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Customer needs it to have a shelf life when they get home with it, too, right?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So two years is the standard, and that is best practice.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: That should be the standard.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Occasionally that gets shortcutted for quick releases of products, or it'll seem very reasonable, like, hey, you're just changing this one extract to this other extract.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so, no big deal.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's only 0.5% of the formula.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: We don't need to go send it back through testing for that.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And most of the time, that's okay.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: 95, 99% of the time, some little modification like that won't actually impact preservative systems.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: But when you get those occasional, you know, you'll see it in the news.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Something's going moldy, something's doing this, something's doing that.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's because something like that happened and it didn't go back through full 12-week stability testing.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's always pressure on the manufacturing side and on the brand side to get stuff more quickly to their distributors and to their stores.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of pressure.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: The brands face a lot of pressure, and then they put a lot of pressure on us because they're under a lot of pressure.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's how you can see things happening sometimes in the industry that are like, and there's a lot of new preservatives coming out all the time too.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so we rely on like the testing and the SDS sheets that we get from the manufacturer, the preservative.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then every once in a while there'll be weird things that happen there too, where you know, they didn't test it with certain types of ingredients or things like that, and it doesn't perform the way it's expected to perform.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, one of the questions then that comes to mind for me is because I know at craft you guys do things truly like in the best way possible.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's something I've really understood about what you guys are doing as compared to the world of manufacturing that I've read about and I've heard horror stories, and I know I don't come from manufacturing, so I can't speak to it too much, but I know that you guys do things in a very ethical way.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I really admire that about what you're creating with craft beauty labs.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because my question as a consumer is how much say do brands get in things like that?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh you know from your expertise that we need to test this for this, this, this, and this, right?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: But then where does the brand come in when it comes to like say you go to them and say, I think this is the testing that's required or should be required for your product, whether that's stability testing, whether whatever that is, and then versus the brand saying, no, we don't have money for that, or no, we don't want to opt in for that.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how does that whole thing work?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll answer that a couple of different ways.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: The first thing I want to say actually is that I think that there are a ton of really fantastic manufacturers in the USA in the skincare.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'll get to your other question in a minute.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Overseas manufacturing, there is no doubt that there's a lot going on.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: The brands don't even know there.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: But typically in US manufacturing, there is this set of standards.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Mochra is also changing a ton of things, which we can talk about in a minute if you want.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to that specific question about how much say does the brand have, the real answer is that the brand has all the say, meaning that we will give our recommendations, but a brand can choose to basically waive it.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So as long as from my side, if they sign off that they're like, I don't want this done or I don't need that done, or I had it done somewhere else, they're just signing off that that's the case.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then we basically will move forward because from the legal standpoint, what they call like the responsible party.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the responsible party, meaning who is legally liable for this product on the market, is the company whose name is on the product itself, on the label, right?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the brand is the responsible party unless they're actually putting on their like manufactured buy or something like that.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then the manufacturer is taking the responsibility.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it doesn't mean you know, we also have our own legal requirements, especially now with Mocha coming in as a manufacturer.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: But just specifically, your question is the brand basically can decide to do whatever they want to do in that regard if they're signing off.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So when they sign off an order from us, we'll say we recommended stability testing, and they might waive it.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they might waive it on a pretty reasonable thing, like, oh, we only changed this one extract to another supplier or something.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a pretty reasonable wave off of that.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or they just say not needed, or I already had it done somewhere else, or something like that, you know.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: So because a lot of times, you know, when we get formulas, sometimes we're making them for the client and sometimes we're just getting their formula, right?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't really know what the history of that formula is.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: So Mochra is changing a lot of those things, but that's is the modernization of Cosmetics Regulation Act, which is kind of in the process of being enacted right now.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me a little bit more about MoCRA then like what has that changed on your end?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean, in terms of like things that you were doing before that maybe, I mean, I don't know if they've been altered or I don't know what MoCRA has done for manufacturing, to be honest.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's kind of a good area.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I would because I don't think anyone who isn't dealing with it would want to know what Mochra has done.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the modernization of cosmetics regulation act essentially is modernizing cosmetic regulations.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: So the FDA is in charge of enforcing it, and it is a whole pretty extensive series of regulations.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's a series of regulations that impact manufacturers as well as directly impact brands as the responsible party.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And what it's doing is everything from on the manufacturing side, it is it used to all be voluntary, and so now it's going to be mandated, which is that we have to register with our facilities, register our products, register all kinds of things with the FDA.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then the FDA, we have to be operating under what they call full good manufacturing practices, which on the one hand is great, like it's really great to standardize that.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the other hand, it's very challenging for smaller companies because it's very expensive.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because basically, it's like you can be doing all of these things, so which means you know, everything from checking and testing every ingredient as it comes to the door to how you test formulas, to how you run your facility, to how often you sanitize your equipment.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So on the manufacturing side, it's all that kind of stuff.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: The challenge isn't so much the doing of it, it's the documenting of it, right?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't document it, it didn't happen.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not enough just to have cleaned the equipment.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have a full process where you document down that you did it and the FDA can come in and on that and be able to see that.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really like a very good thing for standardization overall, but it is challenging.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: It makes making smaller back product a lot more expensive on our side.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: On the brand side, it's interesting.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: So for the brands, it doesn't apply to brands that are doing less than a million dollars a year in business.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a really small brand, it doesn't apply to you unless you do lip or eye products.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: So basically anything that's designed to be for an orifice, they call it, not a sexy word, but for an orifice, you actually have to be registering and doing all of these things.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so that involves this full registration with the FDA too on your side of the product, every ingredient, your label.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Where I think it's going to probably impact brands the most is in their labeling, because here's the label.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then one of the new regulations, and this is very, very different before.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: So before you have this idea with the FDA around OTC, is it a drug or is it a cosmetic?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that goes on the skin that is not considered an over-the-counter drug is considered a cosmetic.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just colored products and things like that.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And basically, like you couldn't make any quote-unquote drug claims, meaning you couldn't say this is gonna, you know, fix your inflammation or your arthritis or your this or that, but you could kind of say all sorts of other things.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And now with the new MOCA regulations, you have to be able to substantiate every claim that you make, which means the same thing as a documentation process, right?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if I say this is a brightening serum, what evidence do I have this is a brightening serum?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: It isn't enough that we put the right ingredients in there.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: We actually have to maintain a file with all the documents showing that vitamin C does this and it's in there and this and that.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really where I think brands are going to need probably more guidance as well as where they're gonna get hit the hardest with the regulations.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I think that's so interesting because I think that obviously you need some sort of regulation in anything that has to do with, like, you know, you're mass producing something, you're giving it out to people to buy, and it's going out there in the world because there should be some regulation.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: But my thing with Mokra is I feel like it's too little, too late kind of thing.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's how I see it because I feel like there's already this culture that's been established where we're already believing in things like, you know, 30% vitamin C serums and stuff as a society, and no one has stepped in until now, I guess.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know if they're gonna be regulating that, but when I see that as a consumer, my mind just goes, why on earth would you ever need 30% vitamin C on your face?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Immediately it's like, well, somebody should have regulated that a long time ago and said, No, that's gonna hurt you.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I get confused as a consumer and also as a doctor.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm just kind of like, Mocha, what are you doing and why are you doing it now?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Compared to like the FDA.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know how the FDA works with pharmaceuticals, you know, I'm familiar with that side of it, but I feel like a very uh watered-down version of what they should have been doing.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it is in some regards, and it's also that whole question like, and how are they possibly going to actually be enforcing this across these hundreds of thousands of products and thousands and thousands of brands and manufacturers, and the ability to do that is going to be interesting as well.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: But and it doesn't really particularly address that specific concern, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a requirement that your product, but that was a previous requirement too, it can't do any harm, right?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: It needs to be safe.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: But that was an existing product, but it isn't the FDA is not going to go in and say, here's every possible formula combination or every possible ingredient percentage or this or that.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: That level of guidance isn't there.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: It is the responsibility of the company selling the product.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Again, so it's really the brand's responsibility to make sure that they have all of these things.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why what I say kind of like across the whole chain is it's like for consumers, there's way, way too much information out there to ever be able to sort through it all, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: So for consumers, your best option is to really research the brands themselves and find a couple of brands that you really know that they're doing their due diligence and that they're really putting out fantastic products and really are genuinely doing what they say.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: You can probably do that amount of research.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the brand side, same thing is they have to really find the right partners, manufacturers and labs or chemists.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or whoever it is, who are really going to give them good advice and be the ones to tell them, like, oh hey, or like you mentioned 30% vitamin C.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, oh hey, you could do that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't think you legally can't probably do that, but you do know that the body skin does not absorb more than 20%.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's also a big wasted extra amount.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think that it's interesting what you said because I've always believed this.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And for anyone listening, I don't know if you guys have thought about it, but I'm very passionate about scientists rather than just only one type of person, real scientists that understand toxicology and immunology and all of this to come in, you know, more so in the beauty industry and have some sort of voice here because it's coming to a point now where physiologically these things don't make sense, some of these products out here.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what intrigues me about that is there's a lot of manufacturers, and I'm not gonna name any names because that's not the point, but there's a lot of manufacturers out here that are kind of enabling that culture.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a huge problem with that as a consumer and as a doctor, as a scientist, because at one point you have to make a decision like, are you gonna support a brand that's literally putting stuff out that's not only is it not valid, but it could be potentially harmful because that's where I'm concerned.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And MoCRA, in my opinion, wouldn't even cover that.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that wouldn't regulate anything.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's not other than the baseline of like, so we talk about MOCRA and the FDA.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: The other side, though, these regulations have not changed and have always been in place, but the same thing as it's enforcement, which is the FAA, right?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So the advertising.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: So there are all sorts of laws around truth and advertising in what you're saying your product does or what it is or what's in it or isn't in it and stuff like that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's already from the regulatory standpoint, the laws are all in place there.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's much more an issue of enforcement, right?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because the way that it works in this industry is that basically someone has to get hurt in order for there to be a serious investigation typically into a company's activities, or the FDA will sometimes target like very specific ingredients because they're aware that the industry as a whole is kind of promoting them in a way that they think is unsafe.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they will send like warning letters out to like a whole bunch of brands.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, like I know they did that a while back with colloidal silver.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: So they'll target that like periodically, but really it is honestly, it's a self-regulated industry for the most part, in terms of no, it is definitely a buyer beware.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: The consumer has to be savvy, the consumer really does need to do their research, they really want to understand the reputation of the company putting the product out.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: They really do want to understand how to look at I'm gonna say real reviews because you know, reviews on a website are a diamond dozen.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: They're fake.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're usually fake.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever the brand wants to do, they control that.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of trying out a way to control to figure out this piece of information.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of things out there that people are trying to do, and I have my own issues with those too.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's like the environmental working group, and you know, you can run ingredients in there and you can check out people's products and things like that.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a good concept.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I always think what I see happen is anytime this type of stuff comes out and then it kind of gets co-opted, meaning it becomes for money.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So now as soon as you can buy this or you can do that, or they pay to advertise or whatever, it becomes very hard for them to maintain like the integrity of it as soon as it becomes like a business.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I think the bigger problem is that it's just like I disagree sometimes with their evaluation or their rating, and it's really massive, massive undertaking to try to actually have accurate ratings for 150,000 different possible skincare ingredients and how they might combine together.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, at the same time, it's also better than nothing, right?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, no, but that you brought up such a such an excellent point there.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about ingredients.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: That was a big question I was gonna bring up was this idea that we do have a lot of education around ingredients like independently, like you know, each ingredient.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know much more from the manufacturing side because you work with these ingredients day in and day out.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: But as a consumer, like we know that you know, vitamin C or niacinamide or all of these things out here, there's education about them individually, but how they interact with other molecules, no one talks about that.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not even about for me, yeah, the regulatory side is important there, but it's also more important to educate consumers, right?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you have to be able to like explain to people that these things shouldn't be used together.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I've seen it to a certain degree where people talk about, like, for example, don't use these active together because they're gonna irritate your skin.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: But then when it comes to like what should be in a formula, my question is really like, have you ever been in a situation where you're working with a brand and you have had to counsel them a little bit and say, I would not recommend combining these two ingredients together or something like that.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, all the time.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: All part of our job, actually.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's needed because you're dealing with actives and things like that to start with.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one piece of it.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and you hear all about this and this and that.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so everyone wants everything in the product, right?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because we definitely have a society of more is better.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we do all the time, whether it's just even combining actives, but also a lot of times clients will come and they'll be like, Well, hey, I really want this gel with this ingredient or this or that, you know, and it's like, hey, just so you know, is like that's not gonna be a good transmission vehicle for that ingredient, or that ingredient's going to not, you know, going to break down this other ingredients.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of things that happen behind the scenes are maybe not about the active so much, because but what we'll see too is it'll be like certain ingredients just will make gels go thin, or it will change the color over time, or it will this or it will that.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's like all part of that formulation side of it as well.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And there's just no way that a brand could know all those things.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it always starts with going to a brand's typical formulation concept is that they'll have an idea of a product that they want or set of ingredients they want or something they want this product to do.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then they're coming and they're either talking to their chemist or they're talking to a formulation lab or they're talking to like a turnkey manufacturer and saying, here's what I want to do.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And before we're ever even, you know, actually in the lab making stuff, there's a lot of conversation around what is it you really want the outcome to be?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: What do you really want it to do?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: What's your core of things that you won't work with?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's one of our bigger questions too.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times when a brand comes to you, especially brands that are growing rapidly, they don't know the.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like, but the way our intake process works is we can't even get to the point we're making you a sample until those things have been clearly defined.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that your brand does and doesn't stand for?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: What ingredients will it and will it not use in its product?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because we want to avoid that situation, you know, where a brand is making a claim and or standing for something, and then we made them a product that doesn't actually live up to that standard because we didn't know that they were saying this, this, or that, you know.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think that it's gotta be such an interesting place to be in your shoes because you're seeing a lot of this stuff from the very beginning of it, the conception of an idea of a product somebody wants to create, and then actually bringing it to life.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a very unique place to be.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why I asked you like, do you have to like really counsel them through this stuff?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I can't imagine somebody coming in and saying, Well, I want this, this, and this, and you're just sitting there like, ah, I don't know about that, you know.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I would say even really big brands who've been doing it for a long time, it's always a conversation.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, I think that's kind of like my passion.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love that part of it.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think because I actually come originally from the brand side, I have a lot of maybe more understanding or empathy too for what a brand is going through and what their pressures are and what their considerations are when they're trying to come up with a product, you know.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: And now I sit in this manufacturing side of it, and so it's kind of I know a lot of what they're having to deal with.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we kind of try to address that up front as well, because they've got all this other stuff they're trying to handle from their market distribution to what the wholesalers want, what the customer's saying they want versus what they really need and all that kind of stuff.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yeah.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Managing expectations.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm that's never easy.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, one of my big questions is really also about sourcing.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been really excited to ask you about this for a while now because sourcing to me is a big gray zone as well.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes I'll have brands tell me, like, yeah, you know, the way we source our ingredients and the way that bring yeah, I'm just like, what do you mean?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, okay, you got this flower from the Mediterranean, it only grows in this like little tiny area.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool, but I don't know if I can believe you or not.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's my thing as a consumer, is like, did you really source it from where you're saying you sourced it?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so from a manufacturing side, I guess my question is, how do you deal with that when a brand comes to you and says, We want this ingredient, but we only want it from this area of the world or like whatever?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how does that work for you?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's a great question.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, that can depend a lot.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: So from like the legal standpoint, we're talking about like the inky list, which is the ingredient deck.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you source your special flour from India or you source it from Oregon, it does not make a difference in that ingredient deck part of it, right?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: But it still does make a difference.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like that should still technically it's a claim, right?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning if you're making a claim about your product, you need to be able to back that up.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so on our side, what that tends to look like is some brands will come to us and they really, really have a very strong commitment to that.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so either that equals that they are sending us that ingredient, we don't order it directly, or we actually build it out in our system as this own unique ingredient, right?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: It can't just be, I'll use a simple one, you know, it cannot just be this is rose essential oil.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: It has its own unique code, its own unique, it's a tie to a vendor, and we can only order it from one vendor.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there are ways that we do actually do that.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, a maybe less scrupulous brand, it's possible that, you know, they could come and have us making a product for them and we won't even know they're making that claim because that's on their website or something.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it's that kind of same thing.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: It really comes down to the brand.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I work with some brands that are scrupulous about it.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's similar to like when they're scrupulous about it, it equals us building out a totally unique bill of materials for them in our system.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, similar to say, like, if they're making, say, a cruelty-free claim or something like that.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what that means is like when we build out each one of those ingredients, we actually have to tie it with a vendor that we have vetted that is, you know, has signed the documentation that it is and all of that kind of stuff.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's not an open ingredient that can just be ordered from any supplier.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be true, and it also can be totally not true.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's not like the easiest answer, but that's the answer.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I just always find it to be very interesting because you're right, some brands they make it as like a big claim, you know what I mean?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's like part of their marketing, it's it becomes a part of what they're putting out there as their vibe, you know, as a brand that hey, I only get ingredients from this one place in the world.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: I do that because there's endogenous species there and like that kind of thing, and I'm with it, you know.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: I get it, cool.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's value in that, right?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like theoretically, I mean, if you're getting ingredients or whatever, whether it's wildflowers or whatever you're using, you're getting it from one specific area that might have like soil that's super rich in, you know, one specific element.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very good soil, especially with things like Mediterranean areas.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: I understand the value of that because those plants are very enriched.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you're getting more out of them, you know, you could think, right?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Theoretically speaking.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I I do understand that, but yeah.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I actually am a really big believer in that look how you grow a plant, if it's actually being used in your ingredient, how it's grown does matter a ton in terms of its nutrient density.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that does really matter.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so for some brands that can make sense, and it could actually even, you know, be from that scientific perspective, you might find that they do actually have a more nutrient dense product, you know.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to equate, say, say like aloe vera.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you buy aloe vera, or you like, because we tend to like these like really beautiful ones.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: One of the examples I'll use is this like you can go into Whole Foods and you can see those like huge aloe vera leaves, and they'll be like two feet long.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I look at it though, and I'm like, it's more like an heirloom tomato or something like that.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: So like a scraggly little aloe vera plant that grows very, very slowly and is only an inch or two long in each of its leaves and it doesn't look all super pretty.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: But the reason that other aloe vera is so big is because it just contains a ton more water, right?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, like if you're actually getting the juice out of that one versus this little teeny scraggly plant, the density of all the trace minerals and things that are actually the beneficial things about aloe vera are certainly going to be more dense in a plant that was grown differently than that.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: But that is really, really difficult to track because even from season to season, right?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: How much water did it get?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things that is challenging about working with natural ingredients, right?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Why some companies don't like to do that is because there is variation.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: I tend to think the variation is kind of what makes it beautiful and unique and also healthy for the skin, is that it's not always maybe 100% exactly the same.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it's definitely a main reason that some brands simply won't work with natural ingredients because from season to season you don't know.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know exactly how much of whatever the thing was you were trying to get put into your product actually has, even if you put the exact same amount of that plant in.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you really hit the nail on the head there by saying that because that's a big question I always have is that, you know, with that concentration, you know what I mean?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Of like, are we really making sure what's being claimed is in these products is really there?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And with manufacturing, I get very like interested in it from a consumer standpoint because there's a lot of brands that will outsource their manufacturing, they'll go to China, they'll use like these overseas, you know, resources, but and there's nothing wrong with that because I don't know, you know, how that works.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: But what I do wonder is if you're getting something from somewhere that I can't even relate to, like, how do I know that that's actually in your product?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's no way for me to tell.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, if you're not showing that upfront as a brand, and I'm just speaking, this is my opinion, like as upfront as a brand, if you're not showing like this is what's in here and this is what we use, and these are the ingredients, here's proof.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: I have like some doubt that it's really in there, especially now we live in the world, because you know, I'm sure you've seen this a lot, where everyone's got a proprietary blend of ingredients they're working with.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's like every brand has this like, we're XYZ59 alpha, you know, and I'm like, what is that?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a consumer-facing show.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is one of the things I do think is great for the consumer in general, because trying to clear the noise of like what is actually meaningful in some of these ingredients.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I'll always say is I'm like, if you see a TM, a trademark on an ingredient, yeah, that means that's a made-up name.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: It does not mean it is a unique, unusual ingredient.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody really has something totally new under the sun, it's patented.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: A trademark is simply I made up a name for some combination of ingredients or some whatever that I actually did.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's at all new, that it's remotely different than even what everybody else has.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: It just means I made up a name and trademarked that.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that can sometimes be really helpful that your radar should be up anytime you see a trademarked ingredient because that's more of a marketing ploy than it typically is a formulation difference.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you mentioned that.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm gonna be more mindful of that too.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Just keeping an eye out for it.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for anyone tuning in that is curious on that angle, like I am, you know, it's definitely something to keep in mind because I mean, I won't lie, you know, at the end of the day, I believe you.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a brand and you're telling me that, you know, we've done studies and we've done clinicals and stuff and our stuff really works.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: I believe you because you're doing your homework.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes people just put words out there.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know that, Christina.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody does that.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, marketing is everywhere.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the more we can stay informed as consumers, the easier I think it'll get for everybody.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because eventually, I would love to see this industry come to a point where the consumers are like demanding true transparency and they're saying, no, we want literally to know every single thing.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: We want to know where did you get your ingredients?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you get those ingredients?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Was it approved?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Did your manufacturer do that extra testing?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Did you allow your manufacturer to do that extra testing?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like that kind of thing.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I would love to see it get to that point.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it'll take time, but a lot of interesting things happening in AI and tech that actually might enable that.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I would actually expect to see probably within the next five years that there is some disruption in the industry with a few new brands coming in who are actually doing that level of transparency where you can scan your product and you can see every record of it from like the minute it was, you know, the order was placed with the manufacturer of exactly what happened.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's difficult right now because there's a lot of technology that would need to go in with that to be able to even just be that transparent.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I do expect that that will be like a brand differentiator at some point here as some of these new technologies are coming online, that there'll be brands built around that as their core proposition statement.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it'll be interesting to see what kind of traction they get in the market when they do it.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's very interesting.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard about that too, and I'm curious to see where it goes because I'm wondering if what you said earlier really kind of struck a note with me where you made an excellent point about how whenever something becomes a business, there's a little bit more iffiness there now.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, I'm curious to see how that really transitions into the space if it does, because anytime you have profit with something, like there's always a way around, and that's something I think we just have to see how it goes.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: But that'd be interesting for sure to see how tech gets involved and all this.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: I could see being interesting in the industry.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I want to know because I'm very interested in body care.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: The more and more I'm on my skincare journey, I'm getting more and more into like these like products that are meant for like all over the body rather than just my face.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: One of the big questions I have, and I know a lot of us might wonder about is like how is body care formulated in comparison to facial skincare?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Could you give us like an insight?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, is there like a difference in terms of like the efficacy or the type of you know ingredients used?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how does that work for you as a manufacturer?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, as a baseline, I'm gonna say no, like a body wash and a face wash, are they fundamentally different?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, a body lotion or cream and a face cream, typically not, other than the face cream we might have be a little bit lighter because people tend to do a lot more things on their face, and so there'll be not as many layers built up on the face as there can be in other parts of the body.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll want something thinner or it'll sit too much on the face.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: But as far as like, is it fundamentally a different formula?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, there are a few areas of the body that you need to be more careful with, so like the neck and the decolet and the little eye area does have thinner skin, so it can be more reactive to active products and things like that.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's like an area to be careful of if you're thinking about like actives and you're using laser things like that on your skin.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's there is a change in kind of like people wanting to use a lot more, actually, what I'll call traditional face care formulas on the body because they're looking for the same kind of level of skin care that they usually typically take care of their face to do with their whole body.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess if there were going to be a fundamental difference in a body or face care product, is that because you have to do such larger sizes, right?
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more expensive because if I have to do eight or 16 ounce body lotion versus a two-ounce face lotion, they will tend to have more filler ingredients to be a lot more just water and surfactant or water and oil for a lotion and less of kind of like the you know what we'll call actives or you know, we we think of them as the beneficial ingredients, but if you're using a great base surfactant and great base oils, they're still great products.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Not everything has to have 20 million extracts in it to be an effective product.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where I'm curious because like I know there's some body creams out here that are really great.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: For example, you know, if you have KP or anything that's like related to like body acne or some sort of lesions on your body, there's like moisturizers now, you know, that tackle stuff like that.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: They've got actives in them.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then so I always wonder like creating something on that larger scale in terms of like how much product goes into like each single unit, how that would be different in terms of actually manufacturing it.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are some serums where I'm like, I wish they made this in a body size, you know what I mean?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I really wish this was available in like a huge bottle where I could flatter it all over my body, but then I always wonder about like cost and like would it actually work with the ingredients they're using?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Could they really bring them to that scale and make it?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it's always a curiosity.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: The answer to that is maybe.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: So some formulas, quite honestly, do not cost any different in their per ounce price for a face version of it versus a body version of it.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: They really don't.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then there are some formulas, there are some ingredients that really are just very expensive.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: But not every ingredient that's really great for the skin is also really expensive.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a good thing to kind of just know in general.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is there are some ingredients that just really are much more expensive, but they're not necessarily the best ingredients for you either.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can make super effective products that use relatively inexpensive ingredients if you want to do them as a body, like an all-over body product, and still have actives in them, still have, you know, do all these different things that would be typical of a face care product.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's good to know because I've been investing more and more as well, you know, as a consumer into body care.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's good to know that it's not too big of a difference because I've always been confused about that, the transition from like very small.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because some serums are like what one ounce?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's like what you get in a serum.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Size.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they are just chocked full of nothing but actives.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, sometimes they're really not.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, no, I know.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: And well, it's interesting.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: The world of manufacturing is very interesting, and so I can't truly hats off to you for being in this world and doing it so wonderfully.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: I know you guys are really upholding a standard at Craft Beauty Labs, and I thank you for that as a consumer because I know how gray zoned this whole space can be.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: And for us out here that are just purchasing products, we don't really get to see that side of it.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: I really applaud what you're doing and what Craft Beauty Lab is doing, and I thank you so much for educating us here today.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so lovely to chat with you.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: I could literally talk to you for hours, Christina.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we should do a whole series or something.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I hope everyone listening, I hope you learned something in this episode.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have any questions at all for us or for Christina, please feel free to chime in.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: We'll definitely pass them along to her team and get you some answers.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: But let us know what you think about the whole manufacturing world in beauty and your thoughts.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I will be back next time.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 43:32
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• 44:39
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