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109: Hopi Kachina Dolls in Brooklyn! · Tales From Aztlantis

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: You must excuse me.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Easy and you've learned a lesson.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: A lesson in honesty.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Honesty to yourself and honesty to others.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: That lesson will stand you in good step all your life.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've all learned a good lesson.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've always heard that honesty is the best policy.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm catching on to why that's so, why that's so.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to have you on.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for the opportunity to just kind of talk about this project and how it's going and what it's about.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: I know there's a lot of um history and background about uh kachina dolls and, you know, of course, some misconceptions about your use.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we just um were able to have this opportunity come from a community perspective, a woman's perspective for the first time in uh uh a public space.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's been done before in pockets, but um never really mainstream uh such as Brooklyn Museum.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is gonna be huge.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: On your uh bio, and and you've spoken to me about this before, but you're the uh uh the managing director of the uh Hopi Vewat Learning Center.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was hoping you can start us off by letting us know a little bit about that organization, about the the work that you do, and a little bit of the history behind the Learning Center.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, sure.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um well it's a very long history.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um the Hopi people have been trying to create a Hopi cultural education um museum for uh the Hopi tribe for the past, I want to say 50 years.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in already in the 70s, elders had this talk of creating a space um where people could have access to cultural materials and learn about them, teach about them.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this was pre-pre-NagPra.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: So Nagpra had hadn't even come to play at this point.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we had a lot of looting, um, a lot of uh cultural materials in museums, and um those narratives were not always correct and highly romanticized or given false information.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there was already um that need to come in between and have a place uh for us to be able to um I guess manage and learn from our own cultural materials um in a different space that um was created by uh Western concept of new museums.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so it was under the Hopi tribal government for a number of years.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: It would go up, it would go down.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and a group of individuals, including myself, um I'll give a lot of credit to Susan Tikeku Atiwa and um Marissa Novayestiwa for spearheading um the revival of this project, but uh with emphasis that we would push forward as a nonprofit.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: We took this idea to the Hopi Tribal Council and um with a resolution that got sanctioned in 2016, um, reviving the project under the Hopiville Resource and Learning Center.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we became a task team responsible for getting this project going, and so that's kind of how it got revived.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very interesting history.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot of plans that were made at different land sites, different times.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So what we had to do uh, as part of the first stages of the project, was to do a land assessment and to see if any of these sites were still feasible for us to use.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we learned that due to different instances, like one project site was next to eagles nests area where people would culturally gather eagles for ceremonial purposes, and those have priority over any development within a certain radius, and then another part um of the reservation was um near some ruins that kind of had a traumatic history behind it.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that we just learned about all this stuff and kind of just tried to catch up with today and how we want it to move forward.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: But um, a lot of people have this idea in mind that like it would be for tourism, but it's mainly going to be for the Hopi people to be able to have a place for them to understand, to learn, uh, to heal.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we have a lot of, I guess, traumatic uh experiences with museums uh in the past with different instances.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, I'm sure everybody's hurt time and time with auctions, with just funerary items, sacred items that shouldn't be in these spaces, but somehow they get there and we want them back, but we can't because due to ownership and legalities.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there's still that that harsh reality for our people and having an in-between and trying to unpack that is uh we needed a space for that and for people to understand that and a place to bring the elders in, uh let them know how this is, how this goes, why it's this way, and bring in the youth um to talk about ways that they can help or uh ways that they can grow within this organization.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of what we envisioned for this place.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: We envision for exhibit space, a collections repository, uh archives, wow, uh permanent exhibit space within the building, architecture, um, out in the landscape.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: We kind of have this metaphoric um vision of the landscape being another repository.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in in historical times, that was our repository.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're in the landscape.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: We go out and take care of the land.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: It takes care of us.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Whenever we needed something, we go out into the land.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: Whenever we needed to learn something, we go out and learn from the land.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of having that concept instilled in some of the values of the organization to make it our own.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And hopiwea, um, it translates to our hopi cultural ways.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very broad term that can um cover a lot of what we're trying to accomplish there and trying to provide a home to uh share, teach, and understand um all hope-cultural ways.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a big history of project.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we're doing today is um we're trying to finalize a land site that was given to us through a special land use agreement of 10 acres right next to the Hopi Cultural Center.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we're finalizing a lot of the details of that, working with one of the sovereign villages, um, Sungopavi Village, who still um manages a lot of their cultural land, clan land, village lands, um, the traditional way and has um very little to do with the Hopi government.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we're trying to honor um honor their position and work with them and encourage this type of um agreement to take place because we that's a whole part of our organization is to um preserve and teach about how things um are done in a Hopi, a Hopi um blend.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to be an ally for that.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well that sounds amazing.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: And you have you have your Bachelors of Fine Arts in museum studies, right?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: Was that always your plan, or did that come after uh your involvement with the the learning center?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like did that alter the trajectory of of where you were going?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've always been fascinated with arts, museum spaces ever since I was in high school.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I kind of lost track of that in my early 20s and just was became a pharmacy technician to provide for um my son.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was a single parent, but it lured me back in when I started doing a lot of volunteer work with different art markets, and then I was reluctant to get a part-time job with the Museum of Northern Arizona that houses one of the Hopi collections because we don't have space for it.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's known as the Beanhauer Fine Art Collection, and I was able to inventory some of that collection, see firsthand what was involved in that collection, um, what artists were there, and just kind of helped dream of like, oh, okay, so this is the Hopi, Hopi Tribe's first fine art collection.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, why do we not have it on display?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Why do we not have a space for it?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just it came easy to me.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I told myself, man, if I could do this every day, I would do this every day.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I gave it a shot and I went back to school, did a four-year program in three, uh, and came back and just jumped right into try to revive this project.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and the good part about it was that Mr.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Beenhauer was still alive and he was in Santa Fe, where I went to school.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I connected with him.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about different um pieces, and he really like helped me understand his thought process and why he chose the Hopi tribe to have to have this collection because it's um it's not just Hopi, Southwestern.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's all types of different um tribes in there from the north, and he was a Holocaust survivor, and he saw a lot of similarities with Hopi that resonated with his upbringing, and he just really wanted us to have it, and he knew we didn't have a museum, and he said he wanted that to be the basis of us to start one for ourselves.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And he played the cello and he was into like theatrics, and he always said, like, you know, what you guys do in your culture really reminds me of some of the things I was raised with and um that really resonated with me.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So toward the end of and later part of his life, he knew he wasn't gonna see it, you know.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, Well, it's gonna be on basically told me that, you know, I had to make it happen.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and was le leaving it up to me to make happen, and I always keep him in the back of my mind in in this work and was so thankful for that opportunity.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it was both professional and personal that turn to want to do this.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been following that um that dream for a long time.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's amazing.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, just seeing it all come together, especially with the uh the upcoming exhibit in Brooklyn.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I was looking at the website and I'm gonna read from the website here.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's about the exhibit.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: It says this exhibition is the first to examine the Hopi kachina doll tradition from their recipient's perspective.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: The Brooklyn Museum Center for Feminist Art is a natural home for this unprecedented presentation foregrounding Hopi women's experiences, knowledge, and creative expression.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: So that this just sounds amazing.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and that first line saying that drawing attention to the fact that this is the first time that this is being done, presented from the recipient's perspective.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: So can you can you tell us a little bit about that?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like what what went into into that idea of of presenting the exhibit in in that fashion?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: So this relationship with Brooklyn Museum, it started a long time ago through a NAGPRA consult.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: They had various items there that they needed to consult with the Hopi tribe um to get permission, to repatriate some.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I worked for the Hopi Cultural Preservation uh a number of years, and I was able to be a part of this conversation once they started wrapping up the NAGPRA consult.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we were invited to go view some of the collections in person, uh, myself and my colleague Li Wayne Momayastia, who's also my clan dad.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so we both went and reviewed the collection.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, being in this profession, um, I have my cultural limitations as a woman.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: I still try to be respectful in these spaces that uh women are not generally allowed to be in or to see things that I don't have that privilege or that um knowledge to be able to learn about them.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I was happy to go with a mentor that provided me that guidance.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: So when we went there, I didn't see everything, but the stuff that I did see, like the cochina dolls, it was just like visiting family, you know, like um, and the sad part was that we had to wear gloves because they were at the turn of the century where they're using pesticides for a way to preserve them.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that really hurt me.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I was like, poor thing, you know, these these dolls were made to interact with us, to be held, to be touched, and we couldn't do that.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just getting excited every time they would pull out a new one because I would be like, oh, I have this one, or oh, I really wanted this one, and I really I never got this kind, and just kind of sharing my personal experience, and they didn't know any of that from looking at it, they just knew the collector's perspective of okay, what's the measurement, what's the materials, what type is it, what does these designs mean?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that was what they were used to.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: They weren't used to the intimate experience, and not only that, the use of it, like they were just used to it being a collector's item made for a collector.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: But in fact, the simple truth of these dhus, these dhihus, um, that's what we call them in our language, is that they're a prayer for a child, for um a baby, a girl, a woman, that they're blessed with a good life and also a teaching tool to kind of instill those values as a woman, as a nurturer, as a provider, uh, at a very young age so that way it surrounds us and we're grown with it as we go through different stages of life.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so sharing this with the museum and uh with the cultural Hopi Cultural Preservation Office, this idea came about like why don't we do it from a women's perspective, a community's perspective, you know, um that hasn't really been done before.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And and so that's kind of how the DIA came about between myself, the cultural preservation and um Brooklyn Museum through Nancy Razoff, who's the uh one of the other curators and was charged with um handling the NACPRO consult.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of how the DIA idea came to fruition.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the very good thing about that is we went through the stages of consultation.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we had these talks, we had the cultural resources advisory task team, look at all of the collections, provide guidance.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: We went through the research permit policy and just really try to do this in the best way possible so that way other institutions, other projects could kind of mirror this process and moving over instead of just you're setting the precedent for how other organizations can do this.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: And also implying some type of methodology, you know, um to it.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: So um that's a good part about all the work that had to happen before we actually started sitting down and looking at objects.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: So um I think that's really important for everybody to understand.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: We just didn't dive in and say, oh, we're gonna do this.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um it took us a long time to get to where we're at, um, still is, but uh yeah, for the most part, that's how it came to be.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: So the uh the kachina and you said in in Hopi it's called the It's called Dihu.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Tihu.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's um dihu T-I-T-U, but plural is dihu.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a plural.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Dihhu means like more than one, and dihu is just one.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so the they're given to young girls specifically.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um babies.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh doesn't and usually it can happen boy or a girl, it it just varies.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um I'll just throw out there that we have 12 villages, so every village has a different way of doing it.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: So um I I I think it's safe to say infants can get dolls um when they're firstborn, boys can get it, girls can get it.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you're growing up, when you get in your older years, it's more like little girls, young girls, maidens.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um, if you're lucky, you get it into your um your older ages, into marriage or even being a grandmother.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or um yeah, so they used to scare us and say, after you, after you go through your, I guess your adult ceremony um status, you're not gonna get those anymore.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we used to be so sad, like my last, you know.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it was so every time I get one now as an adult, I'm like so happy.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh my gosh, I you know, it's it's a it's a different type of feeling, you know, to get one.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: I remember like as a kid seeing the dancers come in with them and you're you're watching them, and you're like, oh man, that's a pretty one.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I really want that one.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then when they walk to you with it, like, and you're like, oh my God, I think it, I think that's mine, you know, like and you're really watching them.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then two things happen.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like they point to you, and you're like, Oh, I knew it was mine, I knew that was mine, you're so happy to get it, or it's the person behind you.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And oh no, it was not even mine.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: It really wasn't.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Heartbreaking.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, see, this is like the type of experience you don't really hear in these spaces about what they mean to us as community members.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like a uh a lifetime relationship.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Lifetime relationship, and it's like it's it's a teaching, you know.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: You think, why did I get this one?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you see them out there in the community when they come to visit us, the katina, the katina spirits, when they come to visit us, you know, you just watch them in awe and think, man, I I could only strive to be um that type of person with that type of beauty, with those types of attributes.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: So in a way.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Way it's guiding us to where we want to be in our lives as women and how we want to carry ourselves, and um just how important we're made to feel as women, um being in this in this role of the bringers of life, the seed keepers, the grandmothers, the the matriarchs of the family, the carrying on clanshit.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it has a lot of meaning tied to that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it it's very important that we were raised with these um blessings.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and now that we don't live that lifestyle immersed in just Hopi culture, we have a lot of modern responsibilities.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're constantly trying to balance that.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so we just felt it was fitting for the title to be blessings for a balanced world, because we're always trying to do that in some sense, whether it be traditionally or modern, this day and age, and just recognizing that in women and celebrating that.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the ways we we thought to expand on that was like um just celebrating women's arts as well with kachina imagery on them.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's when we decided to include baskets, pottery, jewelry, quilt work, you know, just other mediums that um Hopi women have been producing and been utilizing in in in our culture.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds amazing.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: So for the exhibit, what is the major shift in perspective that you see happening when women aren't just the uh the subjects of this exhibition, right?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: That that the exhibition is being brought to you by women, by the people through whom the story is is being organized, the people who live these things.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like what is that shift in perspective that that that you see happen?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess do the people at the Brooklyn Museum, do they appreciate this shift in perspective?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: I really feel like they had to learn about it.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think they had their own perspective, of course, which they were taught through uh collectors, anthropologists, you know, all the early researchers, um, but never really it's been overlooked.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a huge part that they missed.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, let's just go to the spirituality part, you know, the the part that's gonna that everybody is interested in, not the utilitarian, the the the women's perspective, you know, it it was heavily um men driven.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um there were, you know, it was hardly ever thought of.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like that's the shift.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're we're constantly trying to tell people in these professions if you want to talk about Hopi art, if you want to talk about something Cherokee, if you want to talk about any tribe, ask them to tell their own stories, not you telling their stories for them.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this was like a big push into why I wanted to be in them in museums.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like my first major museum that I went to when I was like a freshman in high school, I was so excited because I was all amped up.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, let's go see this exhibit and see what they have about my culture.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I got in there, it was just a little thing and a little doll.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, man, there's so much more to us, you know.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the major shift, is that now a lot of major museums are finding out that the only way to have a better understanding is to ask the people what they want to say about themselves rather what than what they want.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of times it's been that way.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I've always wanted that for the Hopi people and all we do, not just um traditional arts, but even our modern histories as well.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I've I feel like that's the big shift.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And also the gallery that we're having it in, the Elizabeth Sackler Center for Feminist Arts.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that kind of set the tone for this show to be welcomed into this space, to have a safe space to talk about this, to share it with.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: I feel confident that it's in a space that's gonna be appreciated.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And all and you have to remember, native people going into these spaces is very intimidating.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's very foreign.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know what it's gonna be like, we don't know if we're gonna be put on the spot.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of unknown feelings to that that we don't like to uh be in.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like that's part of um how this is changing and having people like myself bring the community in and saying, this is what we're here for and this is what we're gonna share.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and we're just gonna be honest and um very intentional about it, and and that's it.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the and the other part of it is um having the need not to know.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna say this and that's it.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: They wanna know more, they can find it elsewhere.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or if somebody is willing to tell them, they can find it.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: But for right now, this is what we're doing, and that's it.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there's there's you see a lot of this, um, it's like a sense of entitlement to information that not even people within the communities themselves have access to all of this information.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: But yet all of these outsiders uh working in these spaces have this sense of entitlement.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that's basically what it is.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, well, tell me what this is, and tell me what and and they can be very pushy with wanting to have access to this information.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it seems like I I've seen it happen.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: They get very uh defensive and offended when when they're told, you know, hey, this isn't for you.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just relax, just appreciate what you're what we are showing you.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: You have to remember too, like Hopi the Hopi tribe has been researched for years.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're one of the most research tribe in the world, you know, and a lot of material that's written out there by about Hopi's is not by Hopi's.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh everybody's an expert on us.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's kind of like uh sometimes when you go into spaces, like they're proud that they already know this, but um not sensitive at all.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: And with understanding that there's 12 different villages, 30 different clanships.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there's 12 different ways to understand one thing, 30 different ways to take on that role or that responsibility of the different topics, so it can get overbearing at times.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and just and not only that, some of this information is earned knowledge that should be shared responsibly and not to uh a young audience.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what one thing that we wanted to make sure that this would be safe enough for our kids to be a part of because they've never been a part of this conversation.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they've never had a space to where they could come in and say, Oh, there I am, this is about me.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is who I am.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's us, that's my grandmother, that's my sister.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so proud of being a part of this.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, our kids don't have a space like that, a safe space.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's part of what our goal is for the learning center to provide.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: But until then, we're hoping that collaborations like this could kind of help us with our need as a community to heal in these spaces.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess my question would be how how do you as an individual, as a Hopi woman, negotiate that line between those two those two things, right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Making it accessible to people who aren't from your community so that they can learn more, hopefully in a in a way that is respectful.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: But also, you know, you don't want to oversimplify things too, right?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: To where like like you were talking about going to that museum and seeing an exhibit of your own people, but it was just a tiny little uh object that didn't really represent who you are.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you walk that line between between those two things?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it it's hard.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's been hard, and I'm just thankful that I'm not doing it alone.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um whenever I feel intimidated, I I'm very lucky.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: I still have my mom, and sometimes she doesn't know either.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I and um it's not because she wasn't raised, it's just that sometimes how they're asking for this information, we're not learning that way.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: We weren't taught that way, and it's a very Western way of looking at things when we um learn by doing, we learn by being around it.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of it um I had to experience it and really think about how I could be safe and just making sure that I had somebody else talk to me about it before.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then if I was wrong to not get hurt about it and just to understand that I'm still learning, we're forever learning.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so, like, like a good example would be in this exhibit, you know, there's ADA requirements because for people who can't see, can't hear, so they wanted a lot of information about the designs, the descriptions on the face.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I was like, when I saw it on paper, I was like, I told it looked real foreign and real, I wasn't comfortable with it.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, you know what?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: We don't talk like this about them in this manner.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's coming from the community, can we just have it in a way that's respectful and the way we learned about it?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like um, and those are more mature conversations that happen in a different space when we're uh we learn about those things at an appropriate time.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: A little baby isn't given a doll and saying, here, here's this doll, and this is what it means, and all of this more tech, it's more about, oh, you're a good girl, like, and you are so good, you got this, we're so proud of you, and take care of her, love her, uh, take her with you wherever you go, talk to her, be good to her, feed her.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's more of like um an interaction rather than a written less, you know.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: So those were kind of the things I had to really step back at and try to understand the Brooklyn audience and understand how I was raised in it and find the in-between and then talk about it with other people to ensure that uh this was safe and it was meaningful and um appropriate.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the language barrier.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's another thing, because translating some of Hopi into English just doesn't do justice.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's no words for some of those feelings, there's no translation for it, and and my poor group of ladies, you know, they're like, how would you say that?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then they're like, and then we will all giggle at each other because like that's we there's no meaning for that in English language because that one word could mean three words, you know.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's been a lot, you know, but I always been sticking to I just want to tell the simple, honest truth about why we have to why it's important to us.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's it.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about with the with the language.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um sometimes when I give talks and I try to translate certain na what concepts, it's like you have to give an approximation of of what the word means, but you're not really capturing it.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's sort of I don't know, it simplifies it, right?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, you could understand it to be this, but it's so much more than that.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's funny seeing people um sometimes they get frustrated with that answer where I'm like, Well, there's not really a a way to to say that.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: So you know I mean I mean you can translate anything, right?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: You can translate it, but it might not have the same meaning.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it doesn't carry that same weight.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's kind of like generic a little bit.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's uh that's a whole other linguist conversation that I've been having with one of uh one of my um colleagues who's um he's just so he's up there with translations and dialects, and um, that's his profession, and I'm I'm I'm playing catch up just with trying to um learn it and understand it.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm not fluent either.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was raised around it, I understand most of it, um, and I'm still in my journey too of really trying to want it and find it within myself to speak it.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'm I'm on that journey too.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of this work isn't just being a professional at it, it's also about being spiritual.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the one thing that people have to understand is that a lot of this is very spiritual, very important.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we can't just overlook that.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: You had mentioned that the uh the exhibition not only has the uh the kachina, but that you're bringing in other pieces of art, works of art.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just wondering like what what are these?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: Are they textiles?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: Are they photographs?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: Is there video?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like how much uh contemporary um pieces are are are you bringing in as well?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, sure, sure.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we broke it down.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: We have like um 122 works.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's 54 dolls, um, there's about 57 contemporary items, like um not historical.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have 61 as they classify in indigenous art collections.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's there's basketry, there's um jewelry, there's pottery, um, there's a few quilts in there, and we really try to stick to um women making these materials, but obviously the dolls are made by the Katinum and other contemporary artists, so we have a mixture of those.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then we want it, I have this pet peeve a lot about Hopi exhibits with everybody thinks of Hopi in black and white.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: They always think we're still on top of the mesa, they don't really take a look at us today.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I requested that most of the um the photographs be in color, seeing where we're at how we live today.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we have um mainly pictures, we don't have um paintings, I don't there's no paintings in there.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then some of the um materials are community loans as far as clothing, because in one section um we're talking about the butterfly dance, and so we're gonna have uh a butterfly um um clothing from a man and a woman and partner standing together just to kind of give people an example of how we dress.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's my other kind of pet peeve is that everything's behind the glass.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to make sure there was some touch item so people can actually hold a pottery, so people can actually feel the basket, shake a rattle, hold a little baby, you know, because a lot of times everything is behind glass, and I really wanted people to experience them for their true uses of interacting with people and learning about that them that way.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um as living objects.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as living objects, as uh and just connecting with it because it's really hard for people to just look behind a glass, read a label, and say, Okay, I get it.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I I really wanted to have this component a part of it and be safe for uh children too, if they wanted to um touch an item and it would be okay.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: We created a family guide with conversation pieces in it relating to the touch objects.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited about that part.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want it to resonate with any child from whatever culture there, they know that they get gifts, they understand that experience of having a doll, having a gift, getting it from their family member, remembering it and cherishing it for the rest of their lives.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I felt like we can all connect as people, not just you don't have to be hopi to understand that.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we tried really hard to think about what an average child in Brooklyn is dealing with and how they could relate that to hopey experiences for themselves and still be celebrated within this exhibit.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds great.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, one of my friends, she she said something really like powerful to me, and I appreciate it.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: She was like, you know, you're really putting in careful thought and thoughts and approaches and how we want to be seen in museum spaces, and you know, you're you're giving us our our voice back in a new way.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: She was like, and I I appreciate that.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that just meant a lot to me, you know, because I really wanted that for a long time.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: I really wanted that for us.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um I'm excited and I'm also a little bit intimidated.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: As we said, we have 12 villages, and this is only one voice and a handful of voices, you know.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: I can't speak for all of those villages.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: I can't speak for every Hopi tribal member, and I'm gonna make mistakes and I'm gonna be wrong.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm just trying to prepare myself for that too, and just um continue to learn because I still have a long way to go in that.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: So let's say you have a Hopi young woman walks into the uh the exhibit.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like what are you hoping is is her takeaway?
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like what what what would you like to see her experience being in in a in a place like this?
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: That she has value, that she's like loved, and to use what information that she learns in there in a positive way for herself, whether it be a gentle reminder and saying, Oh, I remember doing this, maybe I should start doing it again, or maybe I should start telling people about my experience.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe I maybe I don't know this, but now I do, and I'm gonna talk to my family about it.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Ask them how it is for us, ask them if um they had this experience in their lifetime, but I just want them to feel seen is the most important part and valued because I feel like we're losing that.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, every every reservation has hardships, you know, there's a lot of different types of factors going on that make us distort.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: That make us lose ourselves and not really feel seen.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a lot of young native girls out there that don't see themselves and don't value themselves that way anymore.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they're all doing bad things.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, we've all gone through our own hardships.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't say that I was perfect myself.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I had a lot of bad times, and um, but there was also always somebody there to pull me out of it and say, you're not just anybody, you come from somewhere, you're a very important person and you have purpose, you know.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just try to see that in yourself.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I they always tell us in our language, um, manapas by he gaita.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: That means you're worth a lot, you bring life, you know, you're you're just so sacred.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um I just want us to all remind ourselves about that.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: And even as men, you know, to think that way a little bit deeper about your grandmother, about your mother, about your significant other, about your daughters.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just a good gentle reminder about those things.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: So overall, I want uh a young woman to know that.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: So you have a lot of these um contemporary items that are gonna be put in the exhibit uh next to these uh you know, older historic uh items.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that a lot of people have this uh this idea that modern things are not necessarily traditional, right?
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's they see there's this divide between, well, you know, it's it's only traditional if it's if it's old.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, all these new things.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: I know I mean it's yeah.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean they i as if you know indigenous cultures are only legitimate if they're viewed as being frozen in time, right?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: So like you were saying about the black and white photos as opposed to to color photos, there's this perception that that we're like those uh I like to think of it as like, you know, in Jurassic Park when they had the the mosquito trapped in the amber.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's how they see native people, is like we're just frozen in amber, just stuck in time, and we're not allowed to evolve and develop new techniques and and new forms of artwork and and express these things.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: And those things still are traditional, like they're they're coming from us, they're coming from this place of this long lineage of tradition.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's really cool that that you're going to have these uh contemporary items, you know, there with because it's all part of the same story, right?
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um within museums, this is my long-winded way of getting to this question.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um with within the museum space, do you see there there's like this disconnect between well it's modern, so it's not really traditional?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is more valid because it's older.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I feel like that's a very unhappy way of looking at things.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: I feel I feel bad if that's all people see rather than the continuation of culture and resilience adaptation.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um I it's hard for someone like me to put them in categories like that because we're a living culture and it's living, it's alive.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, it's might not be the same as our ancestors did like 700 years ago, but they knew that and they were always adapting, even with like growing cult agriculture, you know.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we have our staple foods, but if it was for a good purpose, a greater purpose, it was always incorporated in our lives to um help us adapt, help us advance.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the same way could go with science.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's just the way you want to look at it and experience it for yourself.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel that um that's a really sad way to look at it.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's hard for me to think of it like that.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, um, I'm not real traditional because I wasn't born pre-1930s, you know?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, or like, oh, just because I have a hopi name and a tribal ID, you know, um, that doesn't really make uh me hopi either.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like it's just um I feel sad for people who have to live that way and put a category to it or a place just to have order, and that just goes back to the Western concept of ownership of dictatorship.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: To uh, I mean, we have our own values, and I would like to say we're rich in values rather than rich in money, so I think that's um the big push uh these days is to it's kind of a reflection upon your own self, you know, how you're looking at things is how you were raised.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I just hope that people are having a more open perspective into how we're trying to share it and agree with that rather than say, oh, this is not real because it's contemporary works.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even a real Hopi show.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna disappoint a lot of collectors.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: I can already tell you that now because they've seen it in this way for so long of okay, what style of it, what year is it, what materials is it, how much it cost, who made it, you know, we're not talking about any of that because that is not our focus.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to welcome people to just look at it with a new set of eyes, you know, a new perspective, and hopefully um come out with a positive view for themselves and understanding and welcoming that into um their own chain of thinking of how things have been this whole time, and also created by people other than the tribe itself.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I like about the exhibit.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it starts off with a with an intro video of interviews, quotes from different women who are reluctant to speak on this topic, then it goes through the different stages of a of a girl's life when she receives different types of dolls.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: Then it goes around to uh different times in our cultural calendar that celebrate uh women, celebrate the katinam, and then at the very end, it talks about how um um katina are shared, katina dolls, katina imagery is shared with the world.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the part where even us as Hopi people are still trying to understand where it got to that point where we were commodifying culture.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: What did that mean for us?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: How did we know it was gonna go this far?
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't know.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the positive part about that is that people have found ways to appreciate these imagery, these dolls, these baskets in their own way that we never even thought of, and that we're happy for them that it's brought them that type of joy and comfort in their own lives, um, that they make their own, you know.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that part is real beautiful.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think um that's how I look at it.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um not so much, oh well, they're not traditional anymore, they're selling it.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would like to think of it as a visitor that came to Hopi, saw how much we appreciated them, got one for themselves and shared it with their family.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or now every time they look at that basket, they remember their visits to Hopi and being around us and spending time with family.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's what I that's what I see in those.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um not so much, okay, this is contemporary, um, it's not really worth that much, you know.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um could be it could be worth a lot.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean the things value, you know, it's it's the value that we give them.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um if they're important to you, if they they bring you joy, they bring you happiness.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: And this exhibit just sounds so amazing.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so happy for you.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: This sounds so cool because you know, we we actually uh the listeners don't don't know this, but we met on um this this trip uh to Oaxaca to uh experience all of these really, really amazing uh the food and and the culture and and just all of the the different artisans and and the textiles and the ceramics and just the joy you know that that you're talking about, you know.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: We you know, I I picked up some some some pottery from some of these uh these communities, and now it's it's that same thing.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: They they're in my house, and when I look at those objects, I just feel happy because I'm I'm taken back to that moment when we were there, and and you get flooded with these memories, and it's a living object because it holds all of that inside of it, and it's so special.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for for me, it was like we were doing a modern pilgrimage that our ancestors used to do in that same area, exchanging knowledge, exchanging um resources, exchanging food, exchanging company.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like we were doing the same thing our ancestors were doing, but in a more modern way.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it brought us all together, and we all brought back home something valuable to instill within our own learning circles, our own cultures.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um I just feel like um that time in Meatla was just very spiritual for me.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm probably gonna be talking about that till I'm old, you know, like talking, yeah talking to my grandkids when I'm old.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: And grandma's always talking about Meatla, and you know, when she went to um be blessed before she could enter the ruins.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: That made sense to me.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um it's just all a part of what our ancestors had already um found out for themselves.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: Each clan had their own migration way, and because and this is another thing that's like I had to be really intentional for this um exhibit is because I'm Kachina clan, and like this is my responsibility to take care of them, to um provide, to uh just be a good relative, you know what I mean?
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so like uh a lot of our uh histories and learning spaces um do involve going into you know Mexico and those spaces and um sharing knowledge.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it was more than just a cultural exchange.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: I really think that was one of my paths that I had to go on to really learn more about myself too.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: And after I came back home, everything started happening good.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I became a grandmother and you know, just looking at things in a whole different light.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so happy I went on that and I met some awesome people that are gonna be a part of my, you know, extended family for for years to come.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: So that was so beautiful.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm I'm looking at the the website, and it looks like there's going to be on Saturday, October 3rd, there's like I guess like the kickoff.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um the opening, official opening for the exhibit.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: There's a whole schedule of events.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it sounds just amazing.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there's going to be a blessing ceremony, uh, there's a tour um that you're going to be uh part of.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_02: Then there's the opening remarks, there's Hopi Women, Artists and Dialogue, Rematriation and Museums, Rematriation and the Land.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um so this just sounds like such a great event, and I'm so happy for you that uh that that you're doing this.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_04: And if there was one main takeaway, like this event is going to start a conversation.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: What what is that conversation that you would like to see begin, you know, from this exhibit moving forward?
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: The the conversation that you would like to see this exhibit uh start.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like the main takeaway I would want and what I would like to see happening is that utilizing your own resources that are within the arm's reach, you know, talking to your family members about anything, just start that conversation around the table and understand that everybody has a deep purpose in life and celebrating that, celebrating those small conversations that lead to bigger ones, um, and being vulnerable in these spaces that allow those seeds to be planted, to be nurtured into something that will benefit not only the community it serves, but others that are in need of that help, in need of that encouragement, um, because we're not doing that anymore.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're so stuck in these categories.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm not hoping that don't apply to me, but it can apply to you, you know.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm just I want us to start looking at each other's as equals, even though that might be a dream, you know, um, in this day and age and what's going on in the world, you know, if you could just look at each other's in that light and understand um that you don't have to be right, you can be wrong.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: And just building upon that, you know, we're celeb we don't we don't celebrate the small things anymore.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_01: We don't just celebrate um and we're not kind to each other's anymore, you know.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I just um I'm hoping that that'll spark something in your Grinch heart and you'll you'll allow something to grow from it, um, is all I really want.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I just want it it to be, like I said before, a sim the simple, honest truth.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can apply that methodology within your life to something, you know, maybe that's all the regrounding that you need at that point that can help you.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the second day we're doing all this programming around hardest roundtables, a conversation, rematriation of land.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're revisiting those spaces that where it all began.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like um find out where it all began for you.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just be honest and simple, truthful about it and you know, come out of the fog a little bit and just be yourself.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't feel like we're doing that these these days, and I know it's I know it sounds like a dream, or maybe my mind is in the clouds too much, but I feel like that's safe, you know.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um and Hopi has always just been real humble about where they've been at, where where they're at in life, you know, you don't have to have too much as long as you have each other and um I'm content with that, you know.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm content with uh where I'm at right now in my life and um I don't have to work in a big museum way far away from home to feel accomplished, you know.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like um this is a perfect example of an opportunity that can exist for you if um you seek it and you wanna have good intentions about it, not just for yourself but others.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, this sounds so amazing.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's Hopi Kachina dolls blessings for a balanced world at the Brooklyn Museum.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: If the listeners wanted to know more about the uh Hopi Bewa uh Learning Center, is there a place online where they can go to uh to get more information?
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have a website at hopibewa.org, h-o-p-i-v-e-w-t.org.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's some information about who we are, how we got started, our mission.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um we have an email there available that you can reach someone who will um try to answer your questions or your inquiries.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then um we don't have a full staff, we work remotely, so that's one of our um plans to expand and having an actual office in the near future.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but that's how you can learn about us on our website, maybe.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I wish you nothing but the best with this exhibit.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's so cool.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_04: And well, thank you.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for uh for coming on.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate the space you're providing for everybody.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I watch it from time to time and I know that you're able to talk about um a lot of interesting topics that nobody has ever they wonder about it, but at least you know you're giving context to it and providing a space.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate that, especially um with this exhibition happening and all the moving components that you can't just say in a four-line paragraph.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate that.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for coming on.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I I I hope you have a safe trip out to Brooklyn and that you uh you enjoy your time there because this is this is a really great project.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: And until next time, remember the truth is like medicine.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't always taste good, but it's always good for you.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_04: All right, it's as well.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.