Latest / PropMedia Podcast / From Film Cameras to Coaching: Decades of Property Media Wisdom w/ Darryl Stringer

Transcript

From Film Cameras to Coaching: Decades of Property Media Wisdom w/ Darryl Stringer · PropMedia Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Prop Media Podcast.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Maddie, and this is Moses.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: We are the co-founders of pixelmob.com and propmedia.com.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: And we're here to talk about property media.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Today we get to talk with Daryl Stringer, who's one of the more prominent real estate photography coaches.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: He's based in Brisbane, Australia.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: And he's coached photographer since 2015, I think.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: He's been in the space since 1998.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: So he started actually working with film cameras back before there were digital MLSs or anything in Brisbane and has watched the industry grow up to where it is today.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: So he's got tons of wisdom and practical insight.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: If you're starting your business, if you're doing it a while, tune in and learn with Daryl.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: All right, Daryl, let's start just orienting people.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: If they don't know who you are, uh, just a minute or two of you.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: So what what do you do in the real estate media industry?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so quick background.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: I started shooting real estate photography only in 1998, um, shooting on film, went through that whole process, transitioned to shooting digital in 2003, got a um a Canon 10D, um, slowly started building up a business and eventually expanded to having quite a sizable team here in uh Brisbane, Australia, um, and ran a really nice, successful real estate photography and eventually real estate media business.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um finished up and sold that business in 2015.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And from 2015 until today, I've been a um full-time doing business coaching and guiding and helping photographers and videographers, primarily within the real estate photography space, in terms of just business development, marketing, pricing systems, just general support and help to help them um avoid all of the silly mistakes that I made when I was sort of going through my early years and just helping them to build um really strong, viable businesses.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: Every time we get to chat, we got to chat a little bit in uh at PMRE a couple years ago.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: I love hearing about kind of real estate, what started out as in heavily photography and the media and real estate media industry, seeing how that's evolved over your career is I think it's very my instinct is that a lot of people have come into this industry within the past five years.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that sounds fair, it sounds very exploded recently.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that a lot of people would like to hear from someone who's had a seasoned career and has built a a uh an entire career now off of this industry, and it's particularly seen that transition even from film into digital, and now we're in a world of like AI and you know building teams and everything.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I think I would love to kind of kind of chattel belt that kind of sprinkle through this conversation because I think that is a a unique uh perspective that most people won't have coming into this.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: You're based in Australia.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um what is kind of your mix of coaching?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: Is it heavily Australian companies or do you have a mix of uh other companies around the world?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, it's it is primarily US, um, simply because of the population size.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Australia has a smaller population than Texas, even though we're a large country.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So there's just not the numbers here.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: Don't tell Texas that they're gonna start saying they're like bigger than a continent or something stupid.
• 3:45
  unknown: Yeah.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: What uh what is the population of Australia?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm now kind of randomly curious.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's what are we around 27, 28 million people?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's it's a little bigger than Canada.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, yeah.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm clueless when it comes to these kind of numbers, I have no idea, but yeah.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: All good.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: But that that's fascinating.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: So you're in Australia, you started your coaching business in Australia, but you're a lot of your clientele is actually in the United States for starting their media businesses.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: And are you helping people that are just getting started or scaling their businesses?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: What kind of point are are you jumping in and helping?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I do I I do in almost, I guess, intentionally I get a really broad range from people.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: I've had some who are just starting out.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, Daryl, I just need help.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do I even get my website up and running?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I go from that stage through to those who uh have been going for five years and they just haven't quite hit the objectives that they're looking for, or maybe they're they've got a team and they just need some help to try to make that work better just because it's a little bit chaotic.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, again, I can speak from experience there having run teams previously where yeah, it it can be difficult.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I again I made all sorts of um mistakes in terms of that hiring and training process that I can now sort of learn from and speak to.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's from the whole spectrum from beginners right through to really advanced ones and uh even those who are sort of they're doing some real estate photography, but now they're trying to expand out into architectural photography and hotels.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a big area that I'm working on where maybe they're trying to set up teams to like hire photographers who can handle their the real estate media side while sort of the the the boss person is sort of trying to expand out into um other industries and being more creative, I guess, with uh the work that they do.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, fascinating.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: It in did you have a lot of experience kind of in that uh I don't know if multidiscipline is the right way to put that, but like yeah, your you're like your business was more than just real estate media or yeah, look, it it was not at a huge scale, but we did work with quite a lot of people, primarily builders.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we did some hotels, did a little bit of traveling around for that, um, but primarily um builders and some architects.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, it was just for us when I was shooting, it was just about just trying to do something that was creatively a little bit different to shooting real estate where it's fairly formulaic.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it just wanting to sort of expand my my bridges.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of photographers do sort of want to expand beyond real estate media um specifically.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, there's a lot of that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: What are some of those other like you you mentioned some that are I would still consider all of those to be in property media, hotels and architecture and stuff like that.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Are there other um like side pockets that you see people regularly branching into that maybe are less obvious?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that aren't obvious or aren't even property related?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Not a lot, maybe like a little bit of um of like branding, both um photo and video for businesses generally, but usually people get into this because they like shooting uh architectural spaces of some kind.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: So most of those that I'm working with are shooting people within some kind of building, yeah.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's all designed hospitality.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, even business, a lot of times, even if the business isn't specifically real estate, like usually it has an office or something that is kind of the backdrop for everything you're highlighting about the business.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: So you're not like you don't have some secret formula to branch into sports photography or something like that, but you're you do help people find the other pockets, the little niche pockets in property media that a lot of people don't think about because they're they're just in that big middle road of find a realtor, shoot a shoot 25 photos for them, that kind of thing.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and look, people have got their different choices.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I think that's a big part of what I advocate as well.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, so you have a real passion for shooting X.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, look, let's look at at what we can do to sort of transition over into that.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so just trying to get clear on what that particular photographer wants to work in.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm curious for your journey, like as you were starting in the 90s, 98, I think you said.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: Did you start primarily um as a photographer doing more broad stuff and kind of found a specialization in real estate and property related media, or did you uh you were like, I'm gonna do properties and and just kind of went straight to it?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: We got straight into real estate photography.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: We actually um bought a business that was already doing this.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, okay.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we bought into that.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it had been going for a few years and it wasn't like it wasn't doing huge volumes.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're talking sort of the the the 90s, like there wasn't a huge amount of of things going on.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so that was the space that that we got into from day one.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been doing real estate media from uh when was it October, start of October 1998.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So before we was like your summer down there, right?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that that's warm?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Leading into that, yeah.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Leading into it.
• 9:09
  unknown: Yep.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: So uh before we get into the meat and potatoes here, I do just have a curiosity question.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um in the 90s shooting film, uh maybe you can just give us a little bit of a taste for what the industry looked like back then and like what it looked like to shoot a listing.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: What were you what were you delivering way back then?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: We would it was the last century.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um we we were delivering um prints, six inch by four-inch prints.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so the typical day was we would go and shoot maybe two or three properties.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we take it, the our rolls of film to our one-hour film processing lab, we'd drop it off in there, we'd go and sit in the food court or go and out and sit in the car and have lunch and read a book and wait for our photos to be um developed by the processing lab.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Then we'd walk in and we'd pick up the the different envelopes with our processed film inside.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think then maybe a couple of years later, then they started to offer scanning of the photo.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we would then also pick up a CD with the photos on it, and we would take that as well, and then we would physically go and drop it off at the agent's office and walk in and hand it over to the person at the front desk and say, Here's your photos for you know ABC Street, uh, and then we'd head on home and do the same thing the next day.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then they would take that and photocopy it, or like what how was that even distributed way back?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm trying to remember.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: I know they would use like they would use a lot of the prints they so a lot of the agencies would have um windows where they would have their listings on on card um and they would use tape to stick the photos onto the card and put them in the window.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and I think then they were they were getting into the scanning because I remember we were using CDs, I can't remember again when that kicked off, but then they started to use that where they would be sort of obviously they would need to be sending those off to um the newspaper, which was a really big thing back then.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you'd get a in the Saturday paper, you'd get your you'd get your big lift out guide for all of the properties for sale and and flick through it, and there'd be the big photos and newspaper articles and and all of that.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it was all the distribution of that.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Newspapers were enormous as a real estate marketing tool then.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was a huge, big like right before I was getting into real estate, that was that was dying, but that was like the what the um I don't know, like your your top top tier agents were doing the like the decade before I was starting, was they would put listing ads in that was part of what they paid for and part of why they got paid was actually getting uh a lot more creative in where you were sending you had to choose how to syndicate the the photos, whether you put them in a newspaper or there were some local like uh real estate specific magazines that would would go out and things like that.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: And is it just like one or two photos or like a whole like now we shoot 30 photos or something of the house?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: Are you going in and out of the house?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Is it just the exteriors?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like what would you actually shoot?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, no, we'd we'd we'd shoot everything, so there would be a good yeah, 20 plus photos.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's better than in the United States.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Way back then it was usually just like a couple of exterior shots and then they're photocopied and then passed out in MLS books and stuff.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my my understanding is back then um Brisbane and and Australia was a very competitive real estate market, like quite progressive in terms of um the media that was being used here.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that were that were that were doing pretty well given given the times we were in.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm curious if the uh like an average order value has shifted in that time, if it's gotten cheaper or more expensive to buy a listing media or photography session in over that period of time for you.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, look, I mean, certainly here where I am, I know prices have gone up significantly.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think when we were starting, I think they were either we were doing photos for like$99 or maybe$120, something like that.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which again, I know some photographers are still only charging that today, and and we're talking like 28 years later.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it obviously depends on your market um and and what's what's going on there.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously we weren't doing you know things like floor plans and videos and and that kind of thing there.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was just still photography.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and an aerial shot at that point in time meant uh renting a helicopter, probably, if if that was even an option.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we weren't quite aerial, but we actually had a system where we had like this giant metal pole that we would attach that the came out.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we would lift it up and it would get us sort of what about 20, 30 feet above the ground with this giant metal pole, and you've got your camera on there and it's kind of wobbling around.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember sometimes we'd get a little bit too close to like to the power lines up above, and that would cause some problems.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, it was that were fun times.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right, yeah.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right as drones were coming out in some states, they would get they got like banned, and and before everything kind of settled with that technology, I I saw a lot of agents in the states couldn't do the drones with the big metal poles to kind of try to approximate it.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's pretty interesting.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's get into a little bit about some of the your uh coaching work and and some of the stuff that you coach photographers in.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um about some S's.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: You got some three S's, right?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Success, um, shortcuts, and systems.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so just trying to sort of work through those things.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of photographers sort of just get focused on other areas, and I think it's just really important just to focus on what success actually looks like for you as a business.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's worth looking at um establishing the systems for what you want to have running as a business so you can operate better at the back end and then shortcuts so that you can sort of get to where you want to be quicker through taking a bit of a shortcut and get there faster.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of people focus on that last part, and I'm glad you include it.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm definitely drawn towards oh, the shortcuts.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's what and I think a lot of people get into real estate media thinking it's kind of a shortcut in into business, like there's already demand, I can go build a business very quickly, build a network, I can make a hundred thousand dollars, uh, and there's a there's a shortcut to doing that.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: But I think you've uh your system already is uh trying to call out some of these other things that are super important.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: So, where do you start with a company in defining success?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's talking through with each photographer about what their ideal business actually looks like because it's not just about earning revenue and taking photos.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um we might want to do those things, but there's always going to be other parameters that come into play as well.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so whether it's, for example, what hours do they actually want to work?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and just making sure that you're really clear on that.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have that defined, it's really easy then to get sort of drawn into working crazy hours at night or working weekends when you didn't want to work on weekends, but you feel like you have to.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or it's you know not getting your pricing right.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're drawn into then doing high volume work when actually your version of success is doing low volume, high average order value products.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: But because of when you started, you started really cheap because you felt that you had to, and then it's been really hard to sort of bump your prices up.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you go along doing sort of$200 photo shoots, but to get anywhere as a business, you find that you need to be doing five of those per day.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so you kind of get accidentally drawn into a business that that you don't like very much.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if we can sort of get clear from early on, my version of successful business is X, it's doing you know, nothing below, you know,$400.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's doing maximum of two shoots per day, it's never working weekends, it's whatever it is, it's going to be different for each photographer.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just getting really clear on that uh early on so that we don't accidentally end up doing something that we just really do not um enjoy at all.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's a pretty easy trap to get to fall into, I think.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh like you've already pointed out.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: You you start out and it's just go, go, go, and particularly when you're starting, you're desperate for whatever work you can get, you know, like and then you don't feel like you can be choosy and all that kind of stuff.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: What does that process look like?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so I might say, well, success for me is everything you laid out, it's a minimum of$400, and I only want to shoot two times a day, and I need to be done by 3 p.m.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um but is that real?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like what how how you know, like when you're defining success, there's got to be some level of reality to it, and potentially you're you're hustling for a long time.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: And even if even if you have a successful business, successful right now we're trying to define what that means, but you have a company that's actually going, it's employing people, um, it may not be making any money, but you're it feels like a hundred thousand dollars is coming in and out, you know, but like uh you're not putting anything in your pocket.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's easy to get to that point just be before defining all this stuff.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um somewhere in between.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's gotta be the place where like I gotta hustle, and there's gotta be a point before it gets way out of control.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: Where where when do you need to make these decisions?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and when do you need to like draw the line?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think the earlier you can kind of get clear, at least where you want to be, the better.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So once we sort of get clear on that, then if you're not there yet, then it's working out okay, what do I need to do to transition from where I am today to where I really would much rather be?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe the first thing would be just to take control of your time and your availability on your booking calendar.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe it's saying, no, I'm going to sort of limit when I'm available.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I may not be able to charge the prices that I'm hoping for, but I can at least take control of my time and sort of be finished up at 5 p.m.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: each day.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or maybe it's then just working out, okay, my prices I've started really low.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: I want to get to X amount as my average order value.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe now I'll just start to plan out, okay, I'm going to do a price rise on July 1st, then I'm going to do another price rise on January 1st, and just start to plan out exactly what that transition is going to look like rather than um sort of just, I guess, drifting along, going, um, look, I am going to put my prices up.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I just need to get whatever it is.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we tend to um come up with sometimes emotional excuses for why we haven't yet put our prices up.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know what, I I don't feel that I can yet, or I'm really worried about how my clients will respond.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's trying to plan out what that looked like.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's in terms of current clients, maybe there's some um grandfathering of them in where they're staying on their old prices while you transition to your new prices and then start working on okay, starting to to do some more active marketing to bring on new clients at your higher prices while you've still got your old clients going along at your old prices.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just working through some ideas for how you can make that move.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, it's around pricing and time, um, just to get to where you you're in a much better place.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think that's usually um a pretty easy thing to remedy?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: You've seen it, I'm sure, dozens of times now as a coach.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of resistance for, oh, we should raise prices.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: And uh does it work out okay?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: What what should people know, you know, like if they're thinking about this stuff?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, it's is it easy?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Usually not.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it's not.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's not easy.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it takes some some planning first.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where I would like to sort of look ahead and go, okay, where do we want to be and what do we need to do between now and then?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's maybe it's spreading things out over two years or more from going, okay, well, I'm only charging 150.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I want to get my price up to 300.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: But if I was to jump straight from 150 to 300, then I'm probably going to lose too many of them.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just going to be viable.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's planning out exactly what that looks like.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then, you know, maybe there's a little bit of compromising in the short term and going, all right, well, for now though, I do actually I want to um limit my hours, but maybe I can't for now.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just thinking through like step by step how we can get there, but being really clear on where we want to be and then making the changes and moving in that direction.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, just like maybe an athlete who has a particular objective in terms of uh a time that they want to run, like they might be a long way short of that now, but they put a training process in place for how they're going to get there.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of going through that same thing of this is where I want to be.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um so these are the steps I need to take to get my business to that point.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: How does success look different for a solo photographer opposed to someone building a a scaling media company today?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh they've got different qualities, obviously, as a business, but um what are the different things that you think uh usually stand out between those two different business models?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, ultimately it still comes down to to the thing that that that photographer wants to have as a business.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: So who does what where do they want to be with it?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um but usually, you know, once you start sort of expanding out a little bit, you've got a little bit more around maybe success around what your team looks like, um, and then also what your time looks like.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: So often there's a lot to set up around teams.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: So who is it that you want on your team?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: What roles do you want them to have?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And how does that actually look?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And how does that then play out?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because there's lots of different ways that we can go.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you might want to be maybe some photographers I talk with, they just want to be like shooting all the time.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas there are others that I work with who they actually want to pull back from that and they would rather be the manager in the office coordinating things while they've got team members out working on that.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So working on those some of those things and just being clear on what that looks like.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Again, there's no this is the right way, this is the wrong way.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's trying to get clear on what you want to be, but then making sure that then you've got the right systems and processes, the right team, um, you know, the right support in place um to be able to enable all of that depending on where you want to be.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: You ever work with partners who maybe have slightly different definitions of success?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have worked with people who have you know different people on on team, like co-owners or something like that.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um they look, that can happen for sure, where you have different things, but I think that's okay.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think what I would want to dial into is what's the success for the company and what direction does the company need to go in, even if maybe one partner is is married with kids and they want to spend time, you know, on weekends, you know, hooking out with soccer on a Saturday morning, while the other one maybe has other objectives that they want to hit.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so those personal objectives are okay.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: What we just want to do, we'll just make sure that the company itself, we're like, okay, this is where we want to be as a business.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we want to get our business to working with X type of clients, we want to be doing X type of work, working with this type of industry.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we want to be building, you know, to a team of maybe three uh full-time photographers, like it's getting on those um things and just making sure that we're that the both partners are aligned on that role, even if their personal um success versions are a little bit different.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Makes sense.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's good advice.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: So let's talk about systems.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: Your second S.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um Yeah, what does that look like?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what's kind of your um advice when someone's setting out, or maybe they are coming to you for coaching uh about setting up systems for their business.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, there's so much there that that we almost don't consider when we're first starting out, um, or even when we've been established for a while and we're sort of slowly starting to learn what that is.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: We think, oh, look, I'm just going to be taking photos.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: So my system is, you know, well, I just need to edit them myself.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll do that each evening, that's fine.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I'll send them off and and yeah, easy.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think what we need to do though is look at systems around you know, marketing, how are we going to get clients?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how are we going to operate?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: How are we going to deliver our photos?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how are we going to edit our photos?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like if are we going to do it ourselves or are we going to do what I would consider usually the um the better option of outsourcing the editing?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's just working through all of that.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of stronger systems, um, actually I was just looking at uh I did an Instagram post on this um just earlier today.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um like things like a hiring system.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: So what does it actually look like then to articulate um my process for here's how I'm gonna hire so that I can compare all of my different applicants along the same parameters, so I've got a really clear picture of which one is perhaps the best option.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe it's a system around um social media content, and maybe I'm going to be instead of just trying to fit it in when I can, maybe I'm gonna schedule time in my calendar every two weeks, and I'm gonna block out four hours every two weeks to put together all of my social media posts, and I'm going to schedule them out, and I'm going to make sure I'm doing at least one per day.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe it's a system around outbound marketing where I'm just making sure I'm really clear on what does it look like and what um messaging sequence do I want to be sending to the people in the different industries that I want to be working with so that there's a process to that outbound marketing rather than random stuff where I go, oh, I'm I'm feeling really quiet at the moment.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, oh no, what am I going to do?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: I better start sending some emails out to people.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um so planning around that, um, maybe it's planning um systems around services.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I, you know, maybe we think of it as um a system for like the the McDonaldization, if you like, of this the things that you deliver.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's it's like it when when a client submits an order, it's like taking an order for a Big Mac.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you just work it through the process, but everything has maybe some checklists that you're checking off for your team, and you're aware of the whole process because maybe maybe there's photos, there's the floor plan, there's the video, and things are going in different directions.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe you're sending your video off to a different editor, right?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but maybe you know there's a whole lot to do there, and maybe you've got some revisions to make back and forth.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how are we then check checking the process of that sequence?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because the photos are easy.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: We send the photos off to our editor, they come back and they're done.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe there's other services that are a little bit more complex.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe um it was one of your team members who shot the photos and the video.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, where are things at with everything?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: So being able to track all of that through a system on the back end um is is really important.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and maybe then there's also just tracking of maybe your current clients.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: So are you taking them for granted and you know doing nothing, or are you regularly tracking when do I need to be following up with current clients to make sure things are okay, or just say hi and bring some personality to what I'm doing?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe I'm trying to be a bit more of a boutique um business where I'm you know high on the personal side rather than um doing high volume.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: So am I making sure that I'm recording?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: So agent X, when did I last speak to them and when do I need to speak to them again?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: So putting all of those things on the back end so that um you're tracking and recording everything across all of the areas that are really important so that um stuff doesn't get missed and so that you're on top of things and staying really consistent with with everything that we need to do.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because being a photography or being a media company, it's not just about getting photos done, it's all of the marketing, the pricing, operations, it's team, it's time management.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's a lot to go on.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: I I think you nailed it.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: I there's but it also sounds kind of intimidating, particularly if you've never run a business before.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a lot of people get into real estate media.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: They think, oh, I'm gonna go shoot some photos and I'll quickly make ten thousand dollars a month.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: And in some and in some level, that's some yeah, that can happen.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: And it may actually happen, but all of a sudden you have a business um and you're running a business, you never really set out to do that.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, maybe not at that level.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so systems start to become coming on your radar and all that.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: What have you seen that has been a successful way to implement systems?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe is there a structure or a way for writing these things down?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like when Moses and I started, we would talk about these things and we had a we would use Notion and we would write standard operating procedures.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: But some things were just agreed upon, and that's what we put into action, some things we had written down.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: But what have you seen that works really well within companies that are very are being diligent about creating systems?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a starting off just with intentionally identifying what are all of the different areas that we need to be working on, and is there or would we benefit from tracking or recording or planning what's going to go on through that process?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: So to to even the the delivery of services, um when we go and do a uh a video tour, or maybe a walkthrough video, and we're sending off a team member to go and do that, and maybe we have a particular order that we would want to be doing it in, and it's thinking through, okay, well, would it be able would we be able to work a lot smoother if all of our team members shot the video of a property in kind of a similar order, and that way it's just going to be easier for us to coordinate.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe it's just building a checklist for that.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um or maybe it's just sort of thinking through, looking at each area, particularly on the marketing side, like what does that what do we or sorry, who is the um client that we want to be working with?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and how do we then need to establish sufficient trust with them where they go, okay, yes, I'm now ready to shift from the the media company that I'm currently using over to you because I can see that you're able to help me in a particular way.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: So then we've got, okay, well, we've got to sort of work out how do we then communicate that in a really clear fashion.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: So what does that then look like?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's planning that out.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: What did this messaging sequence need to be?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's there's just a lot of planning and thinking through all of those different areas so that we can identify, yeah, look, this would work a whole lot better if we put a little bit more thought and planning into it instead of operating randomly and just accidentally doing, you know, pricing, for example, for a particular service without really carefully analyzing our numbers and checking through everything and making sure we're covering things, certainly for our expenses, for our time, for the value we deliver, and just being right across that.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: So look at each area of the business from marketing, pricing, business operations, services, team, time, uh, and see what we can do in each area to write things down.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, standard operating procedures are fantastic.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, even if you don't have a team, they help you get clear on how I could actually better plan all of this.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd say, even for solo operators, um, look at just writing down the steps so that you could effectively hand it off to to someone else and say, hey, here's how I shoot a house.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and maybe through that process you'll actually be able to identify.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I could be a lot more efficient if I did it in this particular way.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, all right, let's write that down, but then let's also change the way we're actually operating um out in the field tech.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, writing things down, planning it out.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think that anyone listening to what you're saying intuitively knows that these kind of systems and documented systems are helpful and that great businesses have them.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that most people, there's like this pre-step that they get hung up on where the person who is starting a business is kind of a get up and go kind of a person.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: They don't naturally want to pause, they don't naturally want to document.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Typically, like that's not typically their personality, right?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm curious, like a lot of this is all makes sense from an abstract perspective, but how do you what do you say to that person or how do you help the person who's like, this all sounds great, Daryl, but like what I'm I'm never gonna do that?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do you get them to do it or or what what kind of strategies or see the value or I don't know would you employ with them?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I can't imagine that any sane person would say, Oh, that would be bad if I had that.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: And yet most businesses don't have that.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: How do you how do you get them over that hump?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Depends on perhaps it depends on my relationship with them.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: So if um if if they were a a coaching client of mine, I would be saying, uh, no, this is the way that you're going to do it because this is going to build you a better business, and you know it's going to build you a better business.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd like you to see to see you um try and put these things down and we'll chat again in two weeks' time and make sure that you've got that done, please.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'd be that if it was just meeting another photographer, I would just be sort of talking through.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, would your business be in a better place if you had this written down?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, sure, it would it would help.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay, so well then what's stopping you then from doing that?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe then it's just sort of having a bit of a work through what that actually looks like and being clear on, okay, well, actually writing down having documentation would be would be a beneficial thing.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it's just working through step by step.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: So where I think it can get, you know, as you said, Maddie, it it can look a little bit big and scary and overwhelming when you see it all at once.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: So even when I'm working through with my coaching clients, um, we do break it down into um smaller steps.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that maybe maybe we just prioritize for now just the maybe it's just working on the the pricing systems and thinking through, okay, this is where we need to be.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: We've worked through our numbers, we know we should be charging, you know,$300.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: At the moment, we're charging$220.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so let's just then work out on a bit of a plan then for what that might look like in terms of how can we increase from where we are now to to where we need to be.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if it's working through some some bigger standard operating procedures, again, rather than maybe trying to look at everything at once, break it down into smaller sections.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, all right, I'm just going to write things down for um how I deliver my photos.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we get them back from our editor, we do a bit of quality control, and then we upload them to whatever platform we're using and send them off, and just writing that down.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then maybe after that, then we look at what's the step before that.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's sending them off to the editor.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, all right, so let's write down what that looks like for whoever we're using from from Pixel Mob um to send the photos off and that whole process.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: So breaking things down into smaller areas, so rather than going, man, I've got this massive big business that I have to sort of put everything down now, we can just work through things a little bit at a time and and that's okay.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's probably a better way to go.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: What would be that first thing that if you're just starting with a client and they have no real systems in place?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like what's the highest leverage first system that you usually press on with somebody?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Usually it comes down to time management and how they're using their time because usually when they're talking with me, we're talking, um, they're working crazy hours, things are out of control, they're burned out or heading towards burnout.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd be working through what can we do then to put um stricter parameters in place so that you're not working crazy late hours.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and maybe then that's starting to work on availability on bookings, or maybe it's starting to look at okay, well, maybe you need to not just outsource your editing, maybe there's other things that you need to outsource as well.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um so starting to work through that time management piece is usually where we start because once we have time available, then we've got time then to work on, for example, the marketing systems or the pricing systems.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: But until we have the time sorted out, there's just too much going on.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's too many shoots, there's too much craziness, um, and we just can't do anything about it.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, we need to create margin, right?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: And there's got to be space to even react to some of this stuff.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I I've I've been in those places as many times.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: We've lived that a few times in a few businesses.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: All right, well, let's get to I think my favorite S in this.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: I all those things I feel like those are the things that build the stability.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: And shortcuts, I think, is has a kind of like a natural appeal.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: What are some of the things advice you give about finding shortcuts and creating some margin in your life by taking these shortcuts?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's again, it's just identifying what what are the shortcuts that are available to you.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I mean, obviously, when I started, there there were no um outsource editing companies.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had to, you know, obviously when we were shooting film, we'd take that, but even when we started shooting digital, um and and we would bring everything back, and I'd be shooting all day and then editing until frequently until midnight or later, doing everything myself.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: So to be able to send photos off to another company, go to bed, wake up the next morning, have things in the box, that's that's awesome.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's an obvious one that a lot of people see.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I guess a less obvious one would be shortcuts around the setup of those systems.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so looking at um what options are available to you to help with all of those things that we need to get set up.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's one of the things that I do as a as a business coach.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's sort of helping photographers and and I can sort of hand over, okay, here's a pricing system and here's a marketing system that I know works.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: We just need to then implement it so that that way they're not starting from scratch, they've made that great big jump from because like it's it takes a lot of work.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, trying to set all of that up takes a lot of time.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I've can draw on all of my years of of doing this and say, okay, here's what I would use.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get this set up and implemented.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's an enormous shortcut um right there.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: So look, I may not, I'm not the only option.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: There are other options out there available and other shortcuts that you can take.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess it's just opening up um your eyes a little bit just to see, okay, I want to get to X.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a way that I can get there faster by leaning into other people, by learning from other people or using other resources, or perhaps hiring people on my team to help me get to that?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe one of your objectives is, you know, I want to be active on social media, which is where um an area where I see a lot of photographers fall short.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe your shortcut to get there is um just hiring a virtual assistant or a college student or maybe a family member to take responsibility for that so that you can get to, you know, having that consistency on social media that you would otherwise not be able to get to just because you're trying to run a business and deal with clients and do everything else.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Speaking of shortcuts, it's that time in the episode to talk about Pixel Mob.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: So we built Pixel Mob as a shortcut.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: So we're building our own media company and we built Pixel Mob to specifically connect you with outsourced editors all over the world.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you just heard it from Daryl a minute ago.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like Pixel Mob's a great spot for you to find your first outsourcing, your first time saving.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: All of that is right at your fingertips with AI tools, with human editors, anything you need to outsource on the backside of your your post-production process.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's what Pixel Mob is built for.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: So check it out.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: If you've never outsourced your editing, like it's amazing to have your evenings back.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: So check it out, set it up, and don't friends don't let friends edit their own photos.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's just not a thing.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, outsource that stuff, grow your business, enjoy your life.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: Back to us.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I've there's so many things I think uh that have companies, coaches, uh these tech companies uh that have been working on these kind of systems and solving these problems for real estate media now for 10 years or more.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think there's uh obviously a ton of opportunity for someone getting started to stay that just weren't wasn't the case when you were starting and uh your your business and and um yeah and well I will say I mean even it sounded like when you started uh your business, you had actually purchased that business.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then at some right, that's already kind of a shortcut, which I think is smart even in that case.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I think you know, if you're if you're in if you haven't already taken advantage of uh some coaching or looked at systems, if you're a real estate media company, man, that can be such a huge uh boon for your business to really take off.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: Moses, any other uh last questions?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think that's about it.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Daryl, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom to share with the industry.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um and maybe last thing would just be where can people find and follow you and keep up with your business?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: So on socials at build a photo business um or on my website, buildaphotography business.com.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much for joining us, and we hope you have a lovely rest of your early morning and to your Saturday.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, guys.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: See ya.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Dario.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: See ya.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: My uh middle schooler went on this kick.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it was just him or if this was like an internet thing, but he was like, it was this whole thing about how Australia doesn't actually exist.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: And like this whole middle school.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's a middle school thing, such a middle thing of like I mean, you've never seen it.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: I've never seen it.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's fake.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: Just over the top conspiracy.