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The Crisis in the Church · Crisis Point

• 0:01
  The key issue surrounding the upcoming SSPX episcopal consecrations is whether they are justified by a crisis in today's church.
• 0:11
  Is there a crisis? And if so, what is its nature and what responses are legitimate? Hello, I'm Eric Simmons and welcome to Cris.
• 0:32
  Foreign.
• 0:38
  Tomorrow is July 1st, which is the date of the Society of St. Pius X Episcopal consecrations.
• 0:45
  And as a last minute gesture, in a letter dated yesterday, June 29, but released this morning, Pope Leo sent a final appeal to the Society asking them not to do the consecration. Let me go ahead and pull up real quick that appeal and read it to you.
• 1:06
  It says, with paternal heart and aware of the responsibility entrusted to me by the Lord as the successor of the Apostle Peter, I address you and through you, the bishops, priests, seminarians and faithful connected to the priestly fraternity of St. Pius X. This is the Superior General of the Fraternity.
• 1:25
  The Church recognizes the devotion to its liturgical life, to liturgical life, commitment to priestly formation, apostolic zeal and desire for fidelity to tradition that characterize many people and communities connected to your fraternity.
• 1:38
  This has motivated the attentive and generous attitude that my predecessors have consistently shown to you.
• 1:45
  In this spirit and filled with Christian affection, I plead with you and ask you with all my heart, please turn back.
• 1:52
  Explanation. Point. I urge you to consider carefully the spiritual good of the faithful, because the schismatic act you are about to undertake would deprive them of illicit and in some cases even valid reception of the sacraments which they love and seek for their sanctification.
• 2:08
  The Church is open to a path of dialogue and understanding that the Holy Spirit can make possible and fruitful. I pray for you, because to tear the seamless garment of Christ is a sin of extreme gravity.
• 2:19
  May the Lord enlighten your consciences and awaken your hearts with a sorrowful yet hopeful heart. I feel it is my duty to the authority received from Christ to ask you to desist from your intended act. I entrust these intentions to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Mother of Good Counsel.
• 2:34
  Okay, so what we see there is Pope Leo is making a final appeal. I mean, he's made it clear since they announced it in early February, I think it was. He's made clear through Fernandez and others that he's not going to give them a papal mandate for these consecrations and that he considers it a schismatic act. Another thing that's very interesting about this letter is it seems to suggest that they will. That he will remove the faculties for confessions and marriages from the society priests. I've mentioned this in a Previous podcast about what this means. But essentially what this means is, in the eyes of the Pope, in the Vatican at least, all confessions heard by society priests and all marriages witnessed by them after this will be invalid. Now, he has to declare that officially, but he. He basically said, when he said that the sacraments will not be listed and in some cases not valid. That's what he's saying. And so we'll need an official declaration from him of removing their faculties, but that's what it seems like he's going to do. So he makes it very clear. The Pope is saying, don't do this. I am not giving you a mandate, and I'm commanding you not to do these Episcopal consecration.
• 3:49
  Now, the Society did respond already. I won't read their response, but essentially they were saying, please let us do the consecrations. And their letter was very heartfelt, very sincere, and seemed to be very much concerned for souls. And so we have this situation where the Pope was telling them, don't do it, yet they're doing it. And I want to talk about today, the crisis in the Church, because it relates to this, but I want to kind of. First, I want to be very clear.
• 4:17
  I think it's important that we understand why the Society is doing what they're doing. I see too many Catholics online who are basically all. They're just Protestants. They just do what they want to do. One of the worst takes I saw was, I'm sorry to say, was in Catholic National, Catholic Register, where somebody wrote an article basically saying it was about liturgical preference.
• 4:37
  This is not about liturgical preference. It's not that society members or priests or leadership, they like the smells and bells. And so therefore they're going to disobey the Pope, and they don't care because they'd rather have their incense than be in communion with the Pope. That is not what the issue is. I think it's important in situations like this that we are fair and we to. To all sides, and we try to understand where they're coming from. I mean, just think about for a second.
• 5:05
  We have a whole society, a whole group, a large group of Catholics who have been, who. Who insist on being faithful to the traditions of the Church, being faithful, and orthodox Catholics who are defying an explicit command from the Pope. It's not as simple as just simply as saying, oh, they're just like Martin Luther or something like that. Don't give me that. That is just. That is being uncharitable. I think, personally, we should have the attitude of Pope Benedict xvi, who never treated Them like that. And remember as Cardinal Ratzinger, he was the point man in all the discussions with the Society, with Lefebvre and society in the 1980s.
• 5:43
  He knew them as well as anybody could know them from the Vatican. And you never heard him talk about them as being Martin Luther's or just trying to, you know, being arrogant or, or, or trying to attack the Church, any of that? No, he never talked like that. And I don't think we should either.
• 6:01
  The fact is the Society knows the rule. They know that a papal mandate is required for episcopal consecrations and they know that the automatic penalty is excommunication.
• 6:13
  So why do they do it?
• 6:15
  Their reasoning is, actually does make sense.
• 6:19
  I don't agree with it and I'll explain why in a moment.
• 6:22
  But let's not act like they're just making things up out of whole cloth, essentially. And I want to be fair. If for some reason I don't represent the Society position here fairly, I do want somebody to tell me. I'm not going to, I'm not going into a three hour discussion of every aspect of it. I just want to give a quick overview so people understand what's going on essentially.
• 6:43
  I mean, there's a number of different issues here, but I think it boils down to Canon 1323. So I have my book of canon law. Yes, I'm an old person, so I have an actual book of it.
• 6:56
  And what it's. This is talking. This is the section on those subject to penal sanctions. So people who get punishments for canon law, like for example, automatic excommunication for consecrating a bishop without papal approval.
• 7:10
  It says in canon 1323, persons who. I'm sorry, sorry, I was Starting to read 1322, 1323, the following are not subject to penalties when they have violated a law or precept. In other words, if you violate one of these laws we mentioned in can law and it has an automatic punishment with it, you're actually not subject to that punishment. If these things, one of these things describe you. For example, one is a person who has not yet completed the 16th year of age. So for example, it's an automatic excommunication if you get an abortion. If a 14 year old gets an abortion, the penalty does not automatically apply to her. I'm not saying it's not a sin. Church isn't saying it's not sin like that. But just if you haven't reached 16, it doesn't apply to you. Automatic penalties like this.
• 8:00
  A person who, without any fault was unaware of violating a law or precept. However, inadvertence and error are equivalent to ignorance. So just to be clear, we all know the society is not ignorant. They're not claiming to be ignorant of it, but that is one thing. A person who acted out of physical force in virtue of a mere accent, which could neither be foreseen or prevented when unforeseen. If somebody's forced, for example, to get an abortion by physical force, like they hold her down, they give her an abortion, obviously the automatic excommunication does not apply. Obviously that's not the case with the. The physical consecrations. Okay, this is the one that matters is note 4 under canon 1323. It says a person who. Now this is again, the following are not subject to penalties when they have violated a law of precept. And number four is a person who acted out of grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or out of necessity or out of serious inconvenience, unless the act is intrinsically evil or verges on harm to souls. And this is really the crux of the, you know, state of necessity, state of emergency. I've heard it, I've heard it both ways.
• 9:11
  Argument of the society that because of the state of the Church right now, the crisis in the Church, the, The emergency in the Church of so many souls being lost, there's so much confusion in the Church, so much going on, that this state of necessity means that their act that they're doing tomorrow, the. The episcopal consecrations would not. Is in the state of necessity. Therefore, the penalty of automatic excommunication does not apply.
• 9:41
  That is essentially the argument.
• 9:44
  And so it does boil down to are we in that state of necessity or not? Now, another thing I want to note is can't the last canon of canon law. This is always important for people who geek out too much about canon law to remember. And I, and they, they try to point to something. Oh, that's all that matters.
• 10:03
  The last canon can law is 1752. It says in.
• 10:08
  It says, in case of transfer, the prescriptions of the canon 1747, which doesn't matter, are to be applied with due regard for canonical quality, equity, and having before one's eyes the salvation of souls. The salvation of souls, which is always the supreme law of the Church. And most people have interpreted that to mean like, okay, can law is important. We don't throw it away and act like it's nothing, yet it serves the salvation of souls. In other words, the Sabbath, man is not made for the Sabbath. The Sabbath is made for man, canon law is not made, you know, we're not made for canon law or salvation is not made for canon law, but can law is made for the salvation of souls. And so I think a fair argument of the rendering of the, the society argument here is that we're in a state of crisis, emergency, necessity, whatever you want to call it, and therefore their act of episcopal consecrations against a paper without a papal mandate and actually against his explicit command is justified and the penalties do not apply.
• 11:16
  Now there's also arguments they have about supplied jurisdiction that has to do with the confession is not being potentially valid. But I'm not going to go into that right now. And just to give an example of how this actually applies in real life, one of my heroes is Father Walter Chisik.
• 11:34
  He leadeth me, he wrote with God in Russia. He was a Catholic priest who was arrested by Soviet by communist Soviets and was in, in jail in Soviet Union for, for years.
• 11:47
  And I wish he was on the path of to sainthood canonization but unfortunately they, they stopped his process. I don't really know why and I wish they hadn't, but they did.
• 11:58
  Technically speaking under canon law he was not, did not have jurisdiction to be hearing confessions and, and, and, and you know, basically practicing as a priest.
• 12:12
  Yet of course everybody would acknowledge he was in a state of necessity, an emergency situation and the salvation of souls what matters. So if some poor prisoner came to him, fellow prisoner said I, I, I can you hear my confession? He wouldn't say oh well no, I don't have jurisdiction right now, I don't, you know, I can't hear. Your canon law would say I can't hear your confessions. It wouldn't be valid. Nobody would say that. Everybody knows, of course it would be valid because everybody acknowledges it's a state of necessity and the salvation of souls is what matters more than anything.
• 12:48
  And so therefore it is. I mean there are other situations also in history and just in day to day life I would imagine different emergencies. I mean another emergency for example is you are, you get in a car wreck, you're dying. An Eliasized priest comes walks by and you know, he's a laic priest like Father hear my confession. Obviously no situation other than this can he hear confessions validly. However, this is a grave necessity. You're about to die, he can hear your confession validly in that situation even though he doesn't have jurisdiction. Ken law would not, you know, give him that in, in normal cases, but in this case it doesn't apply.
• 13:29
  So that is the crux of it, of their argument. But again, if somebody, society supporter or something like that wants to say I, I got something wrong, please let me know in the chat or in the comments later. And you know, and I'll take the correction. But I think that's a fair rendering generally of the argument.
• 13:49
  But it all boils down though to do you think there's a crisis and a crisis of such magnitude that it falls under this idea of a state of necessity, a state of emergency in the Church today?
• 14:08
  Now, obviously, I am the editor in chief of Crisis magazine, which means I am literally the authoritative person to say whether or not there's a crisis in the Church.
• 14:20
  I'm just kidding, of course, but it does.
• 14:23
  It shouldn't surprise you that, yes, obviously, I think there's a crisis in the Church. Now, I want to say a few things about that because, like, the reason I'm bringing this up is I've seen too many society defenders online. I know I shouldn't spend as much time online as I do. Maybe that's my problem. But I've seen it, you know, enough where they basically, they will, they will find something that whatever the daily outrage is about what's going in the church, this bishop said this, this bishop did this, this priest did this, whatever, that we'd, all of us who are probably watching this would agree, yeah, that's awful. It's scandalous. And they'd say, oh, you're telling me there's no crisis? And basically they're saying this justifies what the, the society is doing.
• 15:05
  Because, look, there's obviously a crisis. And I will say there are some who probably deny that there is a crisis, but that's not what's happening here. I definitely think there's a crisis, undoubtedly. But let me make a little bit clear, make that a little bit more specific first.
• 15:23
  I would say it is true. There's always a crisis in the church in the sense of Satan is always working overtime. He's a roaring, lying lion prowling throughout the world, seeking whom he may devour. He's been doing this since the fall of Adam. He's going to continue to do this until the second coming. So in that sense, there's always this crisis in the Church in the sense of, yeah, there's, there's, there's people who are priests who are not faithful bishops who are not faithful heretics in the church, stuff like that. All that is always happening on some level. However, I'm not punting by saying that because I would say there are if you look at history, if you know history enough, there are periods of acute crisis in the Church. And I would put it at, I think when I look at history, I would put in four. There have been four of these periods, generally speaking, I think one of them you can divide up into two to make it five, if you want to. The first is the Arian crisis of the fourth century. This is a classic one. I think most people would agree this was a major crisis because most bishops in the Catholic Church were actually Arians, were actually heretics.
• 16:42
  And you had faithful bishops, orthodox bishops like Saint Athanasius being exiled by the emperor, you know, bishops opposing him, you know, a huge scandal. This is clearly an acute crisis that I think most people would agree that was worse than other times in the Church.
• 17:02
  So that's one, that's an acute. Now I'm talking about, by the way, I'm talking about crisis inside the Church. There have been, of course, crisis outside the church in the sense of persecution. Obviously the first few centuries of Christianity, of the Catholicism, that was a crisis, but more in a sense from the outside that's a different type of crisis or one that usually leads to more saints, more people being faithful. So I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about internal crises.
• 17:24
  So the first I would say would be the Aryan crisis, 4th century. The second, I would say would be the 10th century, the pornocracy that's called, where essentially the papacy was controlled by one or two Roman powerful families, like mafia type families. And there was no sense of holiness, there was no sense of being the vicar of Christ among these folks. I mean, if these, if there was social media in the 10th century, oh my gosh, you think we're freaking out now. We'd be freaking out big time. Then as far as with the popes, how they acted, I know there's still be, I guarantee there'll still be the Pope respectors on the, on, on social media of the 10th century saying, oh, he's doing great, he's done nothing wrong. He's, he's just such a great example, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, they were awful and they were, they were controlled by these mafia families.
• 18:18
  And that basically, by the way, the Aryan crisis go back, that was basically solved over time. It was mostly wrapped up as far as in the main church in the, in the fifth century, but it lasted for centuries and asked in certain areas of the world and you know, particularly among the, the vandals. And I think it was the vandals and like the Huns and people like that, the barbarians, basically. And eventually it disappeared. Well, the pornocracy just was basically just a deep corruption in Rome that kind of spread throughout the clergy.
• 18:53
  And it really was the reforms of St. Gregory VII in the 11th century that helped to reform that. And so we see, you know, that that was the end of that one. So that's the second major crisis, I would say.
• 19:07
  The third crisis, I will admit, I will say could be classified as two or could be three. One or two. I would say it's the great Western schism that obviously the multiple popes, the Avignon Papacy having multiple popes, you know, first the Avignon Papacy leading to, then having multiple popes. And I would lead that all the way into Protestant Reformation, the Protestant revolution, really. I would connect them, but I understand somebody else is like, no, they're really separate phenomenon. I just kind of look at it like it was the weakening of the stature of the papacy through the Avignon Papacy and the great Western schism that led to the prosperous revolution. If you want to call that two crises, fine. I call it kind of one big one. But I think everybody would agree having three men say they're the pope and nobody knows which one really is, that's a serious crisis as, as well as millions of people leaving the Catholic church in the 16th century, that's a crisis. So what do you call that? One big one or two, whatever.
• 20:10
  But that's an acute crisis in which it was worse than, again, an internal crisis that was worse than other times. So no question we have a major crisis. And I would say that the fourth, as I count them, the fourth major acute crisis inside the church would be today, would be the post conciliar, post Vatican 2 time frame. We don't know when this one's going to end, but it has not yet ended. And to be clear, again, I'm not saying there weren't problems in, for example, the 17th century or the 18th century. Of course there were.
• 20:44
  I'm talking about acute crises inside the church where we were impacted. It could impact the souls of countless people within the church, not just localized problems or anything like that.
• 20:57
  And so we have that today, the post conciliar modern church, whatever we want to call it, the post Vatican II church, we have a crisis. Some would deny this. I mean, the progressives deny this. They're like, oh, no, everything is fine. Pope Francis is great, whatever.
• 21:12
  Also, sadly, some conservative Catholics deny this, that we're in a crisis today.
• 21:16
  And I think that's just unbelievable that they would do That I would say in most cases, the conservative, quote unquote, conservative Catholics who believe that we're not in a crisis, they prob a unicorn Novus Ordo parish that is reverent, that's good, and all that stuff.
• 21:32
  They don't recognize how bad it is out there or they just have their head in the sand. They don't want to admit it for whatever reason. Maybe they work for the church. And so they. They know if they admit it too loudly, it could harm their. Their job and their ability, their ability to their job. I'm not saying this for, like, selfish reasons, but they might think, okay, I have to keep my head down about saying there's a crisis because I got work to do. And I think a lot of priests, this might fall under the category they have, like, okay, I have to worry about the souls under my care in my parish. I can't go out and say there's this huge Christ in church, all these problems, because I'll get shut down by my bishop, and I can't help these souls. Maybe he says it privately even. The point is, I get that there might be some conservative Catholics who say they're not a crisis. They're wrong if they actually believe that. And I don't see how you can look at just the basic numbers and not believe that when we have literally millions of people who have left the Catholic Church since the. The 1960s, and they're still flocking away, they're still fleeing, leaving at huge numbers.
• 22:34
  Now you could argue, okay, a lot of has to do with societal changes. It's not that it's not an internal problem. It's an external problem.
• 22:40
  Well, even if you want to argue that, and I think that's. That's ignoring a lot of huge points, I would say, at the very least, then you have to say the response internally that the church has given to all these people leaving has not worked. And there seems to be no effort to change what we're doing.
• 23:00
  No effort whatsoever to change what we're doing.
• 23:04
  I mean, I don't know about you, but any parish I go to, there's a regular parish. Or like, you hear bishop talk, they act like everything is fine. We just keep doing what we're doing. We just keep. We Vatican too, harder. We. We just every. This is a vibrant diocese, a vibrant parish, blah, blah. And while there's millions leaving, everybody's vibrant.
• 23:26
  And also, I don't see how you can look at the actual beliefs and practices of Catholics today and not recognize how they are contrary.
• 23:35
  Contrary Inconsistent with the beliefs and practices Catholics for 2,000 years.
• 23:41
  I mean, I talk about that, of course, in my book Deadly Indifference, with it comes to ecumenism and believing in religious pluralism and things like that. But it's in. It's in so many different ways a misunderstanding, a deep misunderstanding of the purpose of the Mass. I've done a podcast about that before. I mean, obviously.
• 23:59
  I mean, that's what we do at Christ Magazine. We talk about the crisis. We're not afraid to talk about. I know some people will criticize us because they say, oh, you're just a Debbie Downer. You're just negative. Blah, blah, blah. We need to be positive. Then people will come flocking to us. Well, that's. The status quo has been. That's what bishops do. That's what a lot of parish priests do. They're positive. And while they're positive, everybody walks out the door and says, we won't see you again.
• 24:25
  And so, yes, we are negative, wherever you want to call it here at times, often, because we want to reveal that there's a real crisis. And so there's no question there is a crisis. Now, I think what comes up, though, is a legitimate question, is what is the nature of the crisis? What is the nature of crisis? Okay, we all know. We all have our complaints. You know, Bishop, so and so did this. Father, so and so did this. The Vatican has. Has released this document, says this blah and all these things. What is the nature of the crisis? Because we need to know what the nature is to know how to respond to it. And I think there. I think Catholics of goodwill can have disagreements. Exactly on this question. I would say, though, what I would say is the nature of the crisis is it's an identity crisis. It's an identity crisis. The Church does not know her own identity. By a church, I mean, basically Catholics in the church, church officials, church, you know, leaders, priests, bishops, the Pope, they don't understand the Church's identity. And what is the Church's identity?
• 25:41
  Ultimately, it is the ark of salvation. Is the ark of salvation. There's lots of metaphors for this. The body of Christ, the bride of Christ. You know, St. Paul uses both of those. Those metaphors. There's other ones as well. But I would say comes down to the Church. Is the ark of salvation the purpose of the Church? I mean, canon law, I just read. What's the purpose of the law? The salvation of souls.
• 26:03
  What's the purpose? What's the mission of the Church? To save souls.
• 26:08
  That's the mission to save souls. It's not to be an ngo.
• 26:12
  It's not to be a good social organization. It's not to found hospitals.
• 26:18
  Excuse me. It's not to be just one religion among many that makes you feel good about yourself.
• 26:26
  It is the Ark of salvation is the ark of salvation. It is the, the means by which we are saved. We have to be a member of it in order to be saved.
• 26:37
  This misunderstanding of this, of the nature of the church, of what the church is, that's the Ark of salvation is I think, the foundational issue that has led to the Christ today's crisis in the church.
• 26:52
  And because I think it affects everything.
• 26:56
  If you think, for example, the church is a social group, like a social group that helps people, maybe it's like social justice or whatever, well then your attitude towards the mass is going to be radically different than if you think it's the ark of salvation.
• 27:13
  Your preaching is going to be radically different. How you deal with people who are in sin is going to be radically different. How you look at sin itself is going to be radically different.
• 27:22
  Everything about how you act as a church. I had a podcast a few weeks ago about how there's two religions in one church.
• 27:30
  This is what I'm talking about.
• 27:32
  That by religion, I'm talking generically, practically speaking, what you do every day as a member of your religion, as far as your practices, your beliefs, all that stuff.
• 27:44
  If you think that the church is not. If you don't fundamentally see the church as the ark of salvation, outside of which you are not saved.
• 27:53
  I mean, the church fathers love the analogy of the church as the Noah's Ark.
• 27:58
  The, the world's a flood in sin and death. You got to jump on the ark, brother. You got to jump on the ark, brother, or else you're not saved.
• 28:08
  But if you don't think that, if you don't in your core, do not think that that's what the church is. If you see it more as a feel good organization, a, a just another religion, one of many paths to God, which is what so many people think, then you're not gonna, you're gonna do everything different.
• 28:27
  You're not even going to understand what I'm talking about. If you're watching this right now and you're like a Father James Martin Catholic or something like that. You honestly might not even understand what I'm talking about. You might just see me as a bigot, as, as a religious bigot or whatever. I don't know.
• 28:42
  But if it's the ark of salvation Then you see things very differently. And this, this is. Touches the very nature of the Church, what it is, ecclesiology, in other words, that we are a visible, visible body of Christ.
• 29:00
  This is why I think the society decision to disobey the Pope's explicit command in this specific instance is sadly ironic.
• 29:16
  It's sadly ironic because I think it is another example of not really understanding the nature of today's crisis. If the Church is the ark of salvation, you got to do everything you can, Brother, to stay on it, to stay in it.
• 29:35
  And ultimately, if the Pope says in a legit. Now, I have beat the drum for years about what obedience means, and it's limited. I have said that over and over again, that the virtue of obedience, the only person we have blind and total obedience to, that we owe blind, total obedience to is actually three persons. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. No human being demands our complete obedience, including the Pope. I have said this over and over again, but always the implication of I didn't say explicitly is explicitly is there are some times that the Pope does have legitimate authority.
• 30:17
  When I say the Pope has limited authority in the sense that he. He has legit. Like, for example, he can't command you to mow your grass tomorrow.
• 30:26
  Just, you know, a layperson, he can't tell a layperson, oh, you got to mow your grass tomorrow. I don't have to obey that. I'm not, I'm not breaking any virtue of obedience or any Church laws if I just say, no, I'm not going to mow my grass tomorrow.
• 30:38
  But that implies that he does have authority in some cases to actually command things.
• 30:44
  It's very clear the Church, the Pope has universal jurisdiction over the visible Church, over the Church.
• 30:50
  Universal jurisdiction. I mean, he has authority on certain levels that, on certain things that he can command things. You have to obey them. One is consecrating bishops. He has the authority to say, no, you can't consecrate those bishops. And so if you do consecrate those bishops, you are violating the visible unity of the Church. You're violating a legitimate command. It. It runs the risk of leaving the Ark yourself.
• 31:23
  I have an article coming out soon about the importance of communion with being in communion with the Pope, because this ties in. And so I'm not going to go into detail here, but it ties into this visible unity of the Church as the ark of salvation. You got to know where the Ark is to be on it. This invisible church crap of the Protestants just makes no sense. You don't know. I remember As a protest. I wasn't 100. Sure. Always I was in. In the Church because I had sinned, and I was like, oh, did God forgive me? I don't know.
• 31:51
  You know, when you're Catholic, you go to confession, and guess what? You're. You're back in the ark. If you had committed mortal sin, for example, by defying a direct command of the Pope where he has legitimate authority and being excommunicated by him, I'm sorry, but that, that really strikes at the nature.
• 32:17
  It's like seeing the Church almost as just an institution for your motives to exercise your motives to be just an instrument in your hands of what you want.
• 32:31
  No, the Church is the ark that you need to always be on. And yes, you might have to be in the church and you got to fight with everybody else on it, and you might see people on the ark who really should be kicked off, a lot of them.
• 32:47
  And maybe you even think the guy at the rudder isn't doing a great job.
• 32:52
  But you just stay in the ark. You stay in the ark no matter what. And I feel like by these actions, the society is risking being off the ark and cutting to the nature of the crisis today, which is that we're the. Is the. The Church is the visible ark of salvation.
• 33:11
  And so, I mean, you. I, I understand, like I said, the argument that the. The society is saying they're not actually being excommunicated. But to me, it seems like this is a crude analogy. I admit it.
• 33:26
  You have a boyfriend and a girlfriend, and the boyfriend says, oh, we're not broken up. But the girlfriend says, yes, we are broken up.
• 33:33
  Well, guess what? They're broken up. Why? Because the girl has the authority to say we're broken up.
• 33:40
  If she says they're broken up, guess what? They are. No matter what the ingenious. In ingenious arguments the. The. The boy makes, they're broken up because the girl says so. And vice versa, of course, in that situation. And so if you have a situation where the po. As you're excommunicated and the person says, no, I'm not the Pope, he. He can say, no, you are, and he has the authority to say that. And so if you interpret canon law like, oh, the penalty doesn't really apply, but the Pope is saying the penalty does apply. And who is the ultimate interpreter of canon law?
• 34:16
  The Pope.
• 34:18
  If he says no, it. Your interpretation of canon law doesn't fly.
• 34:23
  And actually, I'm telling you, this is the proper interpretation of canon law that you are excommunicated. That the penalty does apply. You're argu. Arguments for state of necessity don't. Don't actually wash here.
• 34:35
  Who are you going to believe?
• 34:37
  I think you have to believe the Pope. In that situation. I don't see how you can any other way but to get back to the crisis, how we respond to it. So, yes, there is a crisis to just, you know, I'm sorry, but I've seen too many society supporters on social media who are not helping their cause, saying that's all of them. I'm not saying, you know, I'm not even saying the average SSPX attendee or priest is like this. I'm just saying there are some voices just hurting your cause because all they say is they just say there's no crisis. But look at all this. No, we're not saying that.
• 35:15
  I'm not saying that. Somebody like Taylor Marshall's not saying that.
• 35:18
  Father Rippinger. I don't, I, I didn't actually hear his argument, but I don't think, I doubt he's saying that.
• 35:25
  We're not saying there's not a crisis. What we're saying is, is the response you're giving is not the legitimate one.
• 35:32
  Remember, just because there's a crisis doesn't mean every response to it is legitimate. Think about COVID Was the government response to Covid? All the responses, the mandates, the mask mandates, the vaccine mandates, all that crap they did, the shutdowns, was that legitimate? Of course not. I mean, there's a saying. I think it's Alinsky or whoever it is, said, never let a crisis go to waste. What he means by that is exploit it. I'm not saying the society is doing this, don't get me wrong, but I'm saying, though, that you can have illegitimate responses to the crisis that are not. That you shouldn't do. And I would say in this case, that is one, this is one. Consecrate bishops is not legitimate. Now, again, I actually think the Pope should have just said, yes, I give my papal mandate, I give my approval. I really do think he should have done that. I think that would have been the best thing. And let's. Now, let's sit down and talk. You got your four bishops. Let's sit down and talk about, and hash this out and really make it a. A true, a true dialogue. I really, I think he should have done that. But the fact is he's not doing that. And so therefore you just have to obey then at that point. I don't think disobeying this is something they, they should do. And I, I thought that. By the way, I think the same thing about the 1988 consecrations that I, I thought Lefebvre shouldn't have done that. I've said that before. Even though I think the Pope should allow them, if he doesn't allow them, don't do them.
• 36:51
  I also do want to mention like, does this mean after tomorrow the SSPX is in schism?
• 36:58
  I'll be honest. I mean, the Pope call a schismatic act. He would say it's a schism. I have a hard time disagreeing with him. But I do think it's a weird situation. It's not like other situations of schism.
• 37:10
  Like the Orthodox are in schism and they deny explicitly the authority of the Pope.
• 37:15
  You know, the old Catholics are in schism because they also deny the, the authority of the Pope. So like I said, is in schism because he denies the authority of the actual Pope, because he doesn't think he's the Pope.
• 37:26
  But this is a weird situation where the society explicitly acknowledges the authority of the Pope. They explicitly acknowledge that Leo Cardinal Robert Prevost is the Pope.
• 37:38
  They include him in their, the Canon and the prayers of the Mass, which has always been the symbol of unity and not being in schism. I mean, in the early Church, that's how you, you knew somebody was in schism or not. Whether or not they included the person, the Pope, in the, in the prayers they include him. They put pictures of the Pope up in their chapels.
• 37:59
  So I'm not claiming this is, I don't know is my honest answer whether or not I would say they're in schism. I don't think they've been in schism for at least a while. I mean, with the lifting excommunications by Pope Benedict, with Francis getting faculties and having such a weird but good in some ways relationship with them.
• 38:19
  I don't think they, I don't think they're in schism today. In other words, on June 30th, after tomorrow. I honestly don't know. I mean, if the post isn't schism, that's hard to argue, like I said, but, but I do think. What's our response then? Here's the problem I see with a lot of people who are defending the actions of society. In this case, I think you're thinking with human wisdom.
• 38:42
  I think you're seeing this as almost politically like, okay, here's the political situation in our country. We have to do this. We have to form this party we have to support Trump. We have to do this, all this stuff in order to. Because we're using human wisdom, human action to overcome it. Now, human action and wisdom is important at times. I'm not saying you just chuck it, but it's always got to be cooperating with what God wants, with God's, with God's commands.
• 39:10
  And so I would just say that by disobeying this command of the Pope, the direct and explicit, you can't say he didn't say it, command of the Pope, you're undermining the cause of reform and of overcoming the crisis.
• 39:27
  We don't see how it's possible. We say, oh, without Lefebvre, we wouldn't have Latin Mass. And it's true, historically, if not for Lefebvre, we probably wouldn't. I don't see how we'd have the Latin Mass today. I'm thankful. I'm grateful to him for, for protecting it.
• 39:40
  And so we say, oh, without. If, if they don't do this Episcopal consecrations, then X will happen. These terrible things will happen. Latin Mass will be gone. They'll shut it all down. It'll be over tomorrow.
• 39:50
  End of story. It reminds me, frankly, of what I hear them say about how we have to vote for the Republican or else the whole country is going to end tomorrow. Well, we had a lot of Democrats win and the country didn't end. Yeah, it got worse, but it didn't end. And that's something that. Not protected by God's grace. America is not protected by some promise that will always remain. The gates of hell won't overcome it yet is survived some terrible presidents. Yet I've been told, oh, you gotta do this.
• 40:21
  You got this guy has to win or else we're all doomed. And that's what I'm hearing from some of the society people. If, if this consecration happened, we're all doomed. What I think that means is, though, if we don't do it my way, the way I think is best, then we can't be saved. And I think that, frankly, is a lack of faith. And I, I don't really like to say that, but I think it's true.
• 40:44
  I think what we have to say is I don't see how obeying this explicit command of the Pope is going to help. In fact, I think by obeying this explicit command, things will get worse for the church. Yet, as St. Peter said, where else am I going to go? I'm going to just be faithful. I'm going to just say, okay, because I think, honestly, the witness of the Society, if they today said, okay, we've heard from the Pope. We really wish he'd given us the mandate. We really want to make this. We really think that we need these bishops, but we are going to obey.
• 41:23
  Think about the impact of that decision, the humility they would be showing. I mean, all these people have traveled Vikon, and they're all getting ready. They spend all this money. They got everything ready. They said, okay, you know, we're going to listen to you. Holy Father, please, will you dialogue with us? Can we really have a discussion?
• 41:40
  I think then all of a sudden, you're putting the shoe on the Pope's foot, so to speak, and saying, now it's in your court and everybody would know.
• 41:48
  And I think that's why I think they really, you know, I think it would be a beautiful thing. It doesn't.
• 41:55
  Doesn't follow human wisdom to do that. I get that. The human wisdom is we have to win. We have to do it the way we think will make it work out best. Instead of saying, okay, I'm going to obey this command, even though I think by doing so things will get worse.
• 42:13
  I personally think it would be such a huge moment if the Society announced today or tomorrow morning, okay, actually, guys, we're not going to do consecrations now.
• 42:22
  We're going to listen to the Holy Father. We're going to just say, we're not going to do it. And please, Holy Father, can we please meet with you? Honestly, at that point, if they did that and then the Pope refused to meet with them, I think that would be a sure sign as well. I mean, just from a political standpoint, it'd get a lot of support, but I think it would just be an active humility that I think God would bless. I think God would bless that act of humility and the act of obedience and submission to the Pope.
• 42:47
  Okay, let me get to the live chat. I appreciate. I saw. I could tell. I was kind of. My peripheral vision, I could see a lot of chatting. So I appreciate that. Okay. Youtubio first? Yes. You were first, but Patriot Pooh Bear was second.
• 43:01
  Okay, let me see what else we got here.
• 43:04
  Phoenix XP says he asked him to turn back. The SSPX is asking Rome to turn back. So what's the problem? Yeah, I mean, obviously that's. They don't see eye to eye. There are real and serious differences between the Society and back, and we shouldn't act like there aren't. And in general, I am on the side of the sspx as far as what their concerns are, Max says if only they push back on the Chinese government with the same concern from Control. Yes, I've seen this, actually. This, I'm not saying you're saying this, Max. This argument. I've seen too many people make the argument. Oh, because they don't push back on the Chinese bishops, therefore it's somehow illegitimate for them to do it here. No, what it means is, is it makes it much more difficult. Scandalous. But it doesn't mean you don't obey.
• 43:49
  If, if a father gives two sons a commandment, one of them doesn't obey and he doesn't do anything about, but the other one doesn't obey and he does something about it, it doesn't mean he was wrong to punish the second one. It just means he was wrong not to punish the first one. Not, you know, so I agree. Just to be clear, it is scandalous that they're not doing, they're not treating other problems in church as seriously as they treat what they conceive as a problem with the sspx.
• 44:16
  Okay.
• 44:18
  Unsubscribed. Thank you.
• 44:20
  I, you know, I guess.
• 44:23
  Okay.
• 44:24
  Subscribed and liked. Okay.
• 44:27
  Good to see.
• 44:28
  Crusader says praying for God's intervention through the Holy Spirit. That's what we need to do. Obviously, you and I, you know, we need to be praying and fasting. Crisis. What crisis? Obviously there's a crisis. That's why you subscribe to Crisis Point.
• 44:41
  Huskers and Royals Gal says, Does anyone know why Lee XIV did not meet with the SSPX but Francis did? That doesn't make sense at all. You know, it is curious.
• 44:50
  It is curious.
• 44:52
  I, I, I don't know, obviously, and I don't think anybody can say for sure except for Leo himself.
• 44:59
  Why didn't he agree to meet with them? What? And we don't know exactly what the, what they asked for. Like, did you know how many times and what, when did they ask for a meeting with Leo? Were they impatient? They, they were going to get a meeting. They didn't want to wait any longer before they said they're going to do the consecrations. I mean, there's a lot of different things we don't know.
• 45:19
  Knowing the history of the Vatican, how they deal in these situations. I don't really trust them, but we don't know it. There's a lot of things about though. The whole Francis dynamic, society doesn't make a lot of sense.
• 45:31
  Brian Delaney says if the SXPX do this, they will remain a Small sect outside the church. I hope many of them come to the fraternity or the institute and remain in communion. Yeah, I, I, you know, I don't know if that's true, actually.
• 45:45
  I mean, maybe they'll grow. I mean, there's just no way to know.
• 45:50
  But they will be in a worse state as far as in, in their connection to the Church as they are now. And I do think people should attend, like the fraternity or the Institute. Instead.
• 46:01
  The excommunications will later be. Gabriel says the excommunication will later be rescinded. It was in the case of 1988 consecrations. That doesn't mean you don't do it. Doesn't mean you do it just because you think one day you'll be rescinded. That's a dangerous game to play. But you might be right.
• 46:14
  Tom Palm says the two most overused words, heresy and schism.
• 46:19
  I don't think so. I think the two most important words, Tom's Digest says being wrong but humble and obedient is better and more Catholic and Christian than being right. But proud and defiant. Yes, I would agree with that. I mean, I think that's true.
• 46:32
  I, I don't think the society is being proud, though. I just want to say that I, I think, I think they're just, I think it's a difficult situation and I don't want to judge them harshly either.
• 46:48
  I want to bring up another comment here. YouTube says it's obnoxious that Franciscan University of Studentville chose to virtue signal and patronize the SSPX he's talking about. They had an open letter. Some of the professors at Steubenville had a letter, open letter telling society they should not go through the consecrations.
• 47:06
  Franciscan had signed Eberstadt's problematic coalition statement on anti Semitism. FUS should have instead joined Schneider's appeal to Leo.
• 47:13
  I agree. I wouldn't say it's obnoxious, but I agree.
• 47:17
  I thought that was not a great idea.
• 47:22
  I didn't, I didn't understand it. Like, they, they have not made open letters about other problems in the church, like, for example, amoris leticia or fidelity fiduci supplicants or anything like that. They never talk about that, but this one they do.
• 47:37
  And I, and I also thought the letter wasn't that great because they mentioned, like, they said, oh yeah, we love the liturgy too. We appreciate you love the liturgy. It's not about the liturgy. I mean, that's, that's a part of it, but that's not what it's the core, what it's about. And so I thought it was a little tone deaf, to be honest.
• 47:54
  I can't read Decanos, whatever some username. Sorry about that. In your Disclosure Today podcast, you said there was no great deception that the spiritual life is mundane and we're not special times, but there's a noteworthy Christ in church. Yeah, okay, that might sound a little contradictory from my last podcast. What I'm saying is simply I was talking about this idea that there's these grand forces in the world that Satan was making happen to make this great deception, like through government agencies and elites and all that stuff. That's what I'm talking about in general. I think that ultimately though, my response to both to the situation is yes, we're in acute crisis in the church today. I acknowledge that. Our response, though, is still the mundane. It still is. Live a holy life, live the spiritual life, which is from the outside, looking boring.
• 48:44
  It's boring looking from the outside. It means you get up every morning, you say your prayers. It means you do the duties of your state of life. It means that you practice charity towards others. It means that you try to be the best husband, father, wife, mother, whatever you are, sister, brother, priest that you can be.
• 49:01
  That's. That's the response to any time in the. In the world and in the Church. I don't think there's a grand conspiracy, though, in the world that's somehow different from the problems. I think, for example, I think the crisis in the other.
• 49:15
  The previous acute crises in the church, like Aryan crisis, pornocracy, the, the avenue on papacy, stuff like that, those weren't grand deceptions either. They were just particularly acute times of crisis inside the Church. That, that comes and goes with our fallen human nature. So, okay, I'm going to wrap it up there. I appreciate everybody joining in and all the great comments that we got here. Please pray obviously for the Society, for Pope Leo, for all, everybody involved. Pray that a miracle happens, pray that there's reconciliation. We, the Church, will be better off.
• 49:46
  The Church, we better off. If every member of the Society, every society attendee, was in full communion with the Church, was in regular communion, whatever you want to call it, canonical regularity, whatever, we would all be better off. And so we should all want that to happen.
• 50:02
  Okay, everybody, until next time, God love you. And remember the poor.