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Embracing Change: Turning Organizational Resistance into Growth with Katie Desiderio & Michael Frino · The Confident Entrepreneur With Jennifer Ann Johnson

• 0:37
  Jennifer Johnson: Today we welcome back into the studio Katie and Michael Frino, authors of the Beekeeper Politating your Organization for Transformative Growth.
• 0:45
  Jennifer Johnson: It's a leadership fable and it's been coined as an essential resource for founders, entrepreneurs, executives and managers and, like I said at the other podcast, huge accomplishment for making the Wall Street Journal bestseller.
• 0:58
  Jennifer Johnson: Thank you so much, love your book.
• 1:00
  Jennifer Johnson: I have your book.
• 1:01
  Jennifer Johnson: I've shared it with many people.
• 1:02
  Jennifer Johnson: We've actually read it in my business book club and, mike, you were a guest at our book club.
• 1:08
  Michael Frino: It was a great experience.
• 1:09
  Jennifer Johnson: And we're still doing it.
• 1:10
  Jennifer Johnson: We're still doing.
• 1:11
  Jennifer Johnson: We set up a business book club because nobody had a business book club.
• 1:15
  Jennifer Johnson: Everybody was reading fiction and I'm like, I don't read fiction.
• 1:23
  Jennifer Johnson: I probably should, but I don't and that was a great time and I'm welcoming you back.
• 1:25
  Jennifer Johnson: The last time, in our conversation that we had in our last podcast, we were talking about business partners and accountability partners and growth partners.
• 1:33
  Jennifer Johnson: Today, I want to talk about change and helping.
• 1:35
  Jennifer Johnson: Maybe it's not just our employees, and helping maybe it's not just our employees, maybe it's just people in general navigating change.
• 1:44
  Jennifer Johnson: Change is inevitable, right, it's going to happen, and many people are resistant.
• 1:51
  Jennifer Johnson: No, that's not how I've done it.
• 1:53
  Jennifer Johnson: I've always done it this way.
• 1:54
  Jennifer Johnson: Why do I have to do it this way?
• 1:56
  Jennifer Johnson: I don't understand.
• 1:57
  Jennifer Johnson: So what are some challenges that business owners face, specifically when they're rolling out something different, let's say, to their team, and they face that resistance?
• 2:11
  Jennifer Johnson: You know what are some challenges?
• 2:13
  Jennifer Johnson: How can we break through that?
• 2:15
  Jennifer Johnson: How can we get past our employees putting up a wall and going, no, not doing that?
• 2:23
  Katie Desiderio: we get past our employees putting up a wall and going, no, not doing that.
• 2:26
  Katie Desiderio: Yeah, so you know I'll start and then, mike, you can kind of come in, I think you know.
• 2:29
  Katie Desiderio: First there's an opportunity to kind of turn the mirror, to look at the environment of your small business.
• 2:34
  Katie Desiderio: And as we're communicating, we have to be mindful that that environment is grounded in trust.
• 2:41
  Katie Desiderio: And so when we think about that, right, people respond different to change for different reasons, and some of it is just innate in our personality styles.
• 2:51
  Katie Desiderio: Right, that you know there's fear of change, or fear of losing stability, or fear of like hope in the way forward.
• 2:56
  Katie Desiderio: There's lots of reasons why.
• 2:58
  Katie Desiderio: But when we think about, you know, about the four C's of trust, there's a simple opportunity for us to really think about creating an environment where we're enacting these four C's.
• 3:10
  Katie Desiderio: And so those four C's are, first, care and communication.
• 3:12
  Katie Desiderio: And so in the space of communicating change, we have to acknowledge how people are receiving it, and sometimes that means that we're not telling the what.
• 3:21
  Katie Desiderio: We're starting with the why.
• 3:23
  Katie Desiderio: Here's why we're doing what we're doing right.
• 3:26
  Jennifer Johnson: It lays the foundation Correct.
• 3:28
  Katie Desiderio: Well, it gives people context, right, and so, instead of people feeling unrest and like the carpet's been pulled out from under them, they understand why the decision is being made, but then how they can contribute to be part of the change, right, how they're part of that way forward, that's in that space of hope, right, because they're involved, correct, and so that has to be an intentional space of pulling people in to the change, instead of saying this is going to happen, right, and we're almost pushing away.
• 3:56
  Jennifer Johnson: Because then you are going to put your guard up and say I don't think so.
• 4:04
  Katie Desiderio: Well, right, and I think sometimes you know, we go into conversations and we've already primed our minds that this is going to be a tough conversation or so-and-so is really going to resist what I'm going to say, and so we're kind of teeing up that energy for it to be received that way, a hundred percent, and so we have to really think about that care and communication, right.
• 4:16
  Katie Desiderio: The first C.
• 4:22
  Katie Desiderio: The second is consistency.
• 4:23
  Katie Desiderio: And so when we think about change, and especially post-pandemic, we've seen so much change and so there has to be an understanding of how we're communicating with our people, that we're not just coming in and disrupting things unintentionally in ways that make them feel unrest, but that there's some consistency to the vision and the way forward, how we're responding with them, and that we're able to model some of the behavior that we want to see.
• 4:47
  Jennifer Johnson: And I like that part because if we can't model it, then you don't get that buy-in, because it's like if you can't do it, then why do you expect me to do it?
• 4:56
  Jennifer Johnson: Correct.
• 4:57
  Katie Desiderio: And two, to your point, you create a power distance, exactly, right.
• 5:01
  Katie Desiderio: And that comes back to like telling people what is, versus pulling them into being part of you know what's happening in that way forward.
• 5:08
  Katie Desiderio: And so the third piece is commitment.
• 5:11
  Katie Desiderio: And so as we think about commitment, there's a follow through there, right, that we will do what we say we will do.
• 5:17
  Katie Desiderio: And so if we come in and we're announcing change and we say, and your voices are going to be heard and we're, then we have to follow through on that and pull people's voices in.
• 5:26
  Katie Desiderio: They don't feel like they're wasting their time, they feel like their contributions matter, they feel that there's a personal investment, they feel overly supported.
• 5:33
  Katie Desiderio: And so I think sometimes we fail right In that space of like.
• 5:37
  Katie Desiderio: We think we say what we think people want to hear, but then our behaviors don't say that and we lose credibility, right.
• 5:43
  Katie Desiderio: And then the fourth C is competence.
• 5:45
  Katie Desiderio: And so when we think about, you know, navigating something like change, we have to acknowledge the players, right.
• 5:53
  Katie Desiderio: We have to show up with growth mindset, to learn with them and to say you know what?
• 5:57
  Katie Desiderio: These might be some of the things that you know I have a little bit of unrest about, but I'm hopeful for right.
• 6:03
  Katie Desiderio: Here's why I'm making this decision, here's where we're headed right and we have to learn together as you create that space of ongoing learning and growth which I think helps kind of assuage innate angst that exists through change.
• 6:15
  Jennifer Johnson: And when you're doing it this way, yes, the boss may be the one coming in and saying this is what we're going to do, but it also kind of levels in my mind the playing field a little bit, because you're not coming in and just bossing people around saying this is what we're going to do and, like you said, we're going to start with the why, because we want to know why.
• 6:37
  Jennifer Johnson: I don't understand.
• 6:39
  Jennifer Johnson: But if it's a softer way, perhaps.
• 6:43
  Katie Desiderio: Yeah, well, and, and you're making me realize, I think it's important for small business owners to know why.
• 6:47
  Katie Desiderio: So if you are announcing right, creating change, you know encouraging away why, and then to effectively communicate that strategy and vision and you know how we kind of mobilize action of our team, right.
• 7:00
  Jennifer Johnson: So I don't know if you can, off the cuff, give me an example.
• 7:04
  Jennifer Johnson: So let's say I'm the employee, you're the employer and we have a change that we have to make in the company.
• 7:11
  Jennifer Johnson: How would a conversation go?
• 7:14
  Jennifer Johnson: So we're going to change computer systems, right, how does that sound?
• 7:21
  Jennifer Johnson: How does that sound as an example coming from the person initiating that change?
• 7:27
  Jennifer Johnson: I just want to have an audible, if you will, for the listeners to kind of get a grasp on how that looks.
• 7:37
  Katie Desiderio: Do you have an example, mike, that you want to give?
• 7:38
  Katie Desiderio: No sure, go right ahead.
• 7:39
  Katie Desiderio: You go first, and then I'll share.
• 7:41
  Michael Frino: I don't really have an example.
• 7:41
  Michael Frino: Do you want to share?
• 7:42
  Michael Frino: Go ahead.
• 7:42
  Michael Frino: I was going to talk about kind of the unmanaged change process, but like I'd love to hear the example and then we can kind of walk through that, yeah.
• 7:48
  Katie Desiderio: So actually one of my friends is a dentist and he's going through a computer system change and it's a huge overhaul right.
• 7:55
  Katie Desiderio: It's exceptionally expensive, it's very disruptive to the months to incorporate.
• 8:02
  Katie Desiderio: But he communicated in a way that in order for us to remain competitive and for us to actually encourage the way forward in our practice, we have to invest in this.
• 8:14
  Katie Desiderio: And it's going to take all hands on deck for all of us to get ourselves organized and then think about the future.
• 8:20
  Katie Desiderio: And so in that space it had to take to take his staff right to trust but also to be big contributors to make sure that that process right fundamentally goes through successfully.
• 8:30
  Katie Desiderio: And of course there's bumps along the way.
• 8:32
  Katie Desiderio: And you need your people to be along with you as you navigate those.
• 8:36
  Michael Frino: But I think that lends into what you're talking about, for sure, and you know it makes me think even talking about the dentist office.
• 8:42
  Michael Frino: But, and you know it makes me think even talking about the dentist office.
• 8:45
  Michael Frino: but you know employees should have a voice Right.
• 8:46
  Michael Frino: So you know, before any changes is done.
• 8:49
  Michael Frino: You know, I'll use kind of the concept of an ice sculpture and we use this a lot in our, you know, through our doctoral program in organizational learning and leadership, but one of the fathers of organizational change management was Kurt Lewin.
• 9:04
  Michael Frino: Okay, and so if you can envision a beautiful ice sculpture whatever it is, an eagle, whatever you want that takes a lot of work to create.
• 9:13
  Michael Frino: Now, if you think about the change process, if you had a block of ice and you had to actually sculpt that, it takes a lot of time, a lot of imperfections, a lot of errors, a lot of redoing.
• 9:25
  Michael Frino: However, if you have a mold of an eagle and you take that block of ice and really unfreeze it and prepare that block of ice to be put into the mold and then you refreeze it, it becomes a perfect sculpture.
• 9:44
  Michael Frino: So what ends up happening in change management, I think sometimes is that we take this block of ice, we roll something out like a new computer system, we navigate the imperfections and keep chipping away and listen to the employees like reasons for it's not working, but versus preparing the organization like, here's what the future is going to look like with this new system right, how is it going to benefit the employee?
• 10:05
  Michael Frino: How is it going to benefit efficiencies?
• 10:07
  Michael Frino: Is it going to get you home sooner to see your family?
• 10:09
  Michael Frino: Is it going to make you deal with a customer quicker, get customer feedback quicker?
• 10:14
  Michael Frino: Whatever system you're rolling out, once the employees can appreciate the fact that the system is going to help them optimize performance of their job so the things that matter to them like maybe work-life balance, frustration with technology, it could help Then there's much more apt to kind of adapt that change.
• 10:33
  Michael Frino: But that mold has to be created up front of what you want the future state to look like and your voice of your customers or your employees needs to be heard and you need to kind of align what they're saying.
• 10:44
  Michael Frino: It's a little bit of influence management in a way where you're saying, like my employees are feeling this way, this would make them more efficient.
• 10:51
  Michael Frino: This is the mold I'm going to create and then I'm going to help them see that what we're going to do is going to relieve some of their stressors, and that's really what change management kind of is.
• 11:00
  Michael Frino: But I do want to come.
• 11:05
  Michael Frino: There will always be a dip off in performance and frustration.
• 11:07
  Michael Frino: When you have change right, it's the leader's responsibility wholeheartedly to manage the change.
• 11:13
  Michael Frino: And if you in unmanaged change, okay, you will dip below your optimal performance for a longer period of time.
• 11:20
  Michael Frino: You will eventually recover right, but leaders have to focus on managed change.
• 11:25
  Michael Frino: So how quickly can I manage this change?
• 11:27
  Michael Frino: We're going to dip below what our normal performance is, but how do we get out of that valley quicker to start accelerating?
• 11:33
  Jennifer Johnson: our business and I think as business owners we've all experienced that.
• 11:36
  Jennifer Johnson: But I love the idea of kind of teeing it up right.
• 11:40
  Jennifer Johnson: Yes, Setting it all out, because you will get their buy-in much quicker and much more efficiently.
• 11:46
  Michael Frino: Yes.
• 11:46
  Jennifer Johnson: If you tee it up.
• 11:48
  Michael Frino: Has to matter to them.
• 11:49
  Jennifer Johnson: Exactly?
• 11:50
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• 11:54
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• 11:56
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• 12:03
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• 14:36
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• 14:39
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• 14:44
  Jennifer Johnson: All right, friends, we are back in studio with Katie and Michael Freno.
• 14:51
  Jennifer Johnson: They are the authors of the Beekeeper and we're talking about navigating change, and right before the break we talked about queuing it up.
• 15:00
  Jennifer Johnson: Right, and I want you to touch on it needs to matter to the employees.
• 15:08
  Michael Frino: Okay, yeah, for sure.
• 15:09
  Michael Frino: I mean.
• 15:10
  Michael Frino: I think buy-in is essential in anything that you do in an organization, a team and business.
• 15:15
  Michael Frino: So I think identifying and really getting employees involved in the change management process or your team involved in the change management process is a common theme through any kind of change management book you read.
• 15:27
  Michael Frino: So their voice matters and that's really part of adult learning in a way is that people's voice plays a role in their willingness and motivation to do something.
• 15:38
  Michael Frino: So that has to be teed up.
• 15:40
  Michael Frino: So business owners really need to be a little more strategic before they roll out a change.
• 15:43
  Jennifer Johnson: And I think that's a big mistake people make is they're not.
• 15:47
  Michael Frino: They see something, they look at the dollars, they say this is gonna make me more efficient, this is gonna be a cost saver, it's gonna help my bottom line, but productivity matters.
• 15:55
  Michael Frino: Employee productivity matters.
• 15:56
  Michael Frino: Employee wellbeing and work-life balance matters.
• 16:00
  Michael Frino: So if this is gonna cause frustration with the core team that's driving business for you, then you need to get them involved.
• 16:07
  Michael Frino: You need to take that extra step because it does matter, right.
• 16:12
  Jennifer Johnson: You know, I was reading somewhere recently I don't know the statistic, but it is out there about our generation right now, our workforce right now, and I think we had heard that there's five generations working together right now, but the newer generations that are in the workforce, one of their big things is they want to actually know that they're working somewhere where they matter and where they can matter to other things, that they have a higher purpose, and that's kind of speaking to that in my opinion, that they have to care about it and know that they're being heard.
• 16:51
  Michael Frino: Yes, definitely.
• 16:53
  Katie Desiderio: Yeah, and I, you know, I recently had a conversation about this with someone who's been doing a lot of research in the space of how we kind of, you know, activate energy of middle managers managing the younger generations, and there's an opportunity for us to really think about how we embrace that, because I think that there's a lot of reciprocity and learning of the younger generations, learning from generations who experienced a different life and a different way that we communicate with each other and a different kind of leadership, and there's opportunities for older generations to look at the younger generations right and how we communicate with each other.
• 17:35
  Katie Desiderio: But there's also a space for us in even thinking about in change.
• 17:38
  Katie Desiderio: You know, the way that the younger generations are parented today is a huge change from how I was parented right by my parents, and so we have to make sure that, as we're thinking about things like change, sometimes the change starts in our mindset and we have to acknowledge that our experiences shape the way we show up, and so if people don't like a generation, there's an opportunity to look at like, well, why Right, and how do we get to the root of that.
• 18:10
  Katie Desiderio: And so, you know, through change management, a lot of it first starts here and then right how we communicate.
• 18:16
  Jennifer Johnson: And I like how you said that, because you know how many times have we, oh, those millennials, right, how many times?
• 18:23
  Katie Desiderio: And we're labeling them, yeah which is which we can't do right, because they become our future of work.
• 18:32
  Katie Desiderio: And if we don't like some of the ways that we can use the millennials as an example to show up right, then how are we creating a space right when we're encouraging them to thrive in the work environment?
• 18:44
  Katie Desiderio: And so Mike talked about productivity, but I think that's the difference too, of showing up with a lens of I'm going to find a lot of problems through change versus I'm going to show up with a solutions-focused lens and help us navigate the way forward which was really different than the way it existed pre-pandemic, 10 years ago 20 years ago.
• 19:04
  Jennifer Johnson: Do you think, as small business owners, entrepreneurs, that small business owners and entrepreneurs, that small business owners and entrepreneurs would benefit greatly by doing their research and figuring out the younger people in the workforce, what makes them tick, what sets them off, all of their touch points?
• 19:22
  Jennifer Johnson: Do you think that's important?
• 19:24
  Michael Frino: Yeah, I mean certainly.
• 19:26
  Michael Frino: I mean I think understanding generational differences is probably a key responsibility of middle managers and leaders.
• 19:31
  Michael Frino: I mean, if they don't understand what makes that generation in general tick, whether it's millennials, gen Xers, gen Zers, I think it's a miss from a leadership development standpoint and just understanding blanket kind of generalities of the generation.
• 19:50
  Michael Frino: So I think each one of us are motivated very differently.
• 19:53
  Michael Frino: Each one of us have things that we're going to kind of demonstrate extreme ownership over for whatever reason we feel compelled to.
• 20:00
  Michael Frino: And it's identifying what makes that person tick and the why.
• 20:03
  Michael Frino: I think behind that person's motivation is what is going to help optimize performance for the organization, get that employee to go the extra mile and demonstrate really high organizational citizenship behaviors above and beyond what their day-to-day job responsibilities are.
• 20:19
  Jennifer Johnson: So how would a small company or a mid-sized company go about creating a culture within their company where they and I know I'm kind of veering off now because from the navigating change but create that culture within their organization of people feeling as though they're heard and people feeling as though they matter, Because that does all tie into ultimately navigating change at some point.
• 20:46
  Jennifer Johnson: But you have to create that culture.
• 20:50
  Jennifer Johnson: You have to have that from the onset, I believe, in order to have any effect.
• 20:57
  Katie Desiderio: Yeah.
• 20:57
  Katie Desiderio: So I would say, first you know, for every small business owner who's listening, first it starts with identifying your purpose why do you exist?
• 21:07
  Katie Desiderio: Why do you do what you do?
• 21:08
  Katie Desiderio: How do you communicate that to your people?
• 21:09
  Katie Desiderio: It goes into your strategy, right.
• 21:11
  Katie Desiderio: How are we going to bring our purpose to life?
• 21:13
  Katie Desiderio: And then it goes to culture and that really becomes your identity, right?
• 21:18
  Katie Desiderio: Those three subsets together and thinking about how we, together, right, bring our purpose, our mission, vision, values to life in the work we do.
• 21:27
  Katie Desiderio: And so that space of spending time there, right, of knowing our why, of knowing right those shared values, and then how are we going to enact them together, creates that environment, right, where we're welcoming those deep level diversity attributes of people.
• 21:44
  Katie Desiderio: And you know, Mike mentioned, we can't generalize, we have to really get to know our people.
• 21:49
  Katie Desiderio: And, Jennifer, this goes down to the work you do in going through an exercise and having your employees identify each of their core values.
• 21:58
  Katie Desiderio: How does that align with the organization's shared values?
• 22:02
  Katie Desiderio: And then let's talk about those motivators and the fuel and those spaces that are natural inhibitors.
• 22:07
  Katie Desiderio: But that's the space of really making people feel seen, heard, part of a purpose and there's a motivation that makes them feel like they want to do that organizational commitment to the work they do.
• 22:20
  Katie Desiderio: Yeah.
• 22:21
  Michael Frino: And just to build on that, I think that's so well said.
• 22:23
  Michael Frino: I think the question on culture becomes like we often forget, like those are human beings right.
• 22:30
  Michael Frino: You often forget those are people and we come to work focused on the bottom line and profits and and performance and, when you can, that's so important, though I don't want to discount the fact that you're people are in business to make money right and that's the's the job you will have.
• 22:48
  Michael Frino: That will exponentially grow if you come to work focusing on the human being.
• 22:54
  Jennifer Johnson: In my experience, right and I completely agree as a small business owner.
• 22:57
  Jennifer Johnson: Yes, it's all about your people.
• 23:00
  Michael Frino: Exactly exactly.
• 23:01
  Michael Frino: So I think, having that mindset of how do we make sure that the relationships are there and we talked earlier about trust and we opened kind of with that piece but are there, and we talked earlier about trust and we opened kind of with that piece, but that's a big piece of it.
• 23:14
  Michael Frino: If people don't trust that you have their wellbeing in mind, you're just doing this to it's too surface level.
• 23:16
  Michael Frino: I mean, no one's going to kind of feel that, it's going to feel inauthentic.
• 23:18
  Michael Frino: And so I think you have to demonstrate high levels of the trust and the four C's to really build that culture just to kind of tie it all back, because otherwise, if you don't trust the leader, then nothing will happen.
• 23:36
  Jennifer Johnson: So, as a small business owner, I can speak to the fact that a lot of us we go into work and it's our day-to-day, it's our regular day-to-day.
• 23:40
  Jennifer Johnson: We're doing this, we're doing that.
• 23:41
  Jennifer Johnson: We do the same thing every day.
• 23:43
  Jennifer Johnson: What advice would you give to a small business owner to step back and look at this piece?
• 23:51
  Jennifer Johnson: Because a lot of times business owners, I will tell you, don't look at this, they don't think it's important, they don't understand it.
• 24:00
  Jennifer Johnson: It seems frou-frou to them, right?
• 24:03
  Jennifer Johnson: Why do I have to sit, and you know, sit back and look at my organization and my culture and that kind of thing.
• 24:12
  Jennifer Johnson: Where should they start?
• 24:14
  Jennifer Johnson: What's one starting, what's one jumping off point that a small business owner can do to break out of that day-to-day, to go?
• 24:22
  Jennifer Johnson: Okay, let me look at this from a higher level.
• 24:25
  Michael Frino: You can.
• 24:25
  Michael Frino: Why don't you take that one?
• 24:43
  Katie Desiderio: Yeah.
• 24:43
  Katie Desiderio: So I would probably start with reflection and kind of are you able to retain, you can't want to fill that position, or you know, it seems that I get a lot of complaints when it comes to this.
• 24:52
  Katie Desiderio: And then what are we going to do about it?
• 24:54
  Katie Desiderio: Right, so we can admire problems or we could be solutions focused to say I should probably look at that, right?
• 25:01
  Katie Desiderio: But, but that's a space of like getting off autopilot.
• 25:04
  Jennifer Johnson: That's what it is.
• 25:05
  Jennifer Johnson: That's number one.
• 25:06
  Katie Desiderio: Right and we say in our B mindset be present, right.
• 25:09
  Katie Desiderio: That means that you have to come in with fresh eyes.
• 25:11
  Katie Desiderio: You have to be able to stop, look and listen, to comprehend, to start to understand where you need to put your energy right, because what we give our time and energy to grows, and many times we're giving our time and energy to things that are not moving us forward.
• 25:45
  Michael Frino: Yeah, I love that Absolutely and that'll start informing some of the culture as you come by.
• 25:49
  Michael Frino: But it's certainly not easy.
• 25:50
  Michael Frino: That's why there's so much work to be done in this space and so many leadership books that come out on it.
• 25:54
  Michael Frino: And I think people are always continuing to learn and grow and think about this stuff and you'll see magic happen when it does in organizations.
• 26:02
  Katie Desiderio: You know, Mike, you just touched on hiring, and this brings back to something Mike mentioned earlier is when we're hiring, let's not focus on hiring people that are just like us.
• 26:13
  Katie Desiderio: Because when we're hiring people that are different and bring in different personality attributes, different ways of thinking.
• 26:19
  Katie Desiderio: Right, that's that space where we're rounding out the circle in inclusive leadership to say this person's going to push me out of my comfort zone, this person's going to bring in a lens that doesn't come natural to me, and so we have to sometimes do that check-in with ourselves to say am I just hiring people that just nod and agree with me and get all the things I say, or are they challenging me a little bit in a healthy way?
• 26:38
  Jennifer Johnson: And when you do that, when you hire like that, you're embracing the growth that's going to come, yeah For sure.
• 26:45
  Jennifer Johnson: Well, I know we were all over the place today, from culture to navigating change and talking about millennials.
• 26:55
  Jennifer Johnson: We were everywhere.
• 26:56
  Jennifer Johnson: We covered a lot of information and I think it was very, very useful information for our listeners that they can really use in actionable steps in their businesses.
• 27:06
  Jennifer Johnson: So I thank you very, very much, katie and Mike.
• 27:09
  Jennifer Johnson: If our listeners would like to get a hold of you or purchase your book, how can they do so?
• 27:14
  Jennifer Johnson: I highly suggest they purchase your book.
• 27:17
  Jennifer Johnson: It's wonderful.
• 27:19
  Michael Frino: Yeah, so they can go to our website, wwwleadershipfablescom, and our book's on all major retailers we have for organizations just to bring it back to what you said, even a small business.
• 27:31
  Michael Frino: We have a lot of resources on there for them.
• 27:32
  Michael Frino: So if they want to do a book, read this is a great book to start talking about culture.
• 27:36
  Michael Frino: There's growth guides, there's resources.
• 27:38
  Michael Frino: It's all free.
• 27:38
  Michael Frino: So we encourage business owners to if they want to think about their culture.
• 27:42
  Katie Desiderio: It's an easy way, fabulous, thank you.
• 27:45
  Michael Frino: Thank you.