Latest / #Divorce: Support before, during and after with Sarah-Jane / Season 4 Episode 16# Untangling Cross-Border Family Issues between France and the UK

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Season 4 Episode 16# Untangling Cross-Border Family Issues between France and the UK · #Divorce: Support before, during and after with Sarah-Jane

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Welcome to Hashtag Divorce Support before, during and after
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the podcast for anyone going through separation or divorce,
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whether you're in the middle of it or navigating what comes
0:13
next. I'm Sarah Jane Taster, French
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family lawyer, family mediator, and lawyer supervisor.
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In this podcast, I talk about much more than just the law.
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With the help of experts, we explore well-being,
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relationships, parenting, finances and often the invisible
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emotional realities of divorce, both in France and
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international. My goal is also to offer hope, a
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reminder that divorce isn't just an ending, but also a life
0:48
transition. And with the right information
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and the right support, a calmer, more confident after is
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absolutely possible. London is often described as the
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divorce capital of the world. It's a city that attracts many
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international divorce cases. With such a strong French
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community here in London, cross-border family issues are
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increasingly common and navigating them requires both
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legal expertise and cultural understanding.
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So I'm really pleased to welcome today's guest, Shay Meekins.
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Che is a family solicitor at Reagan's Solicitors, a leading
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specialist family law firm in the UK, known for its expertise
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in complex international cases. Che works closely with the
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French expatriate community and is bilingual French and English,
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which allows him to support clients navigating the English
1:47
legal system. Che advises on a wide range of
1:51
family law matters, from divorce and financial issues to
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arrangements for children, and he is also an accredited family
1:58
mediator, bringing a constructive and less
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adversarial approach to resolving disputes where
2:04
possible. So, Che, thank you for being on
2:07
the podcast today. Thank you very much for having
2:10
me. Can you start by telling us a
2:13
bit more about yourself, your journey into family law and what
2:18
drew you to to family law? Well, I'm now a partner and
2:22
mediator, as you said, at Reagan Solicitors.
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I'm based in the Saint Albans office just north of London.
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About 2025 minute train journey, not very far at all.
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My journey started in 2011. I'd come out of university in
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2006. I'd studied theology and
2:43
religious studies, which is very different.
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There are reasons why that then leads on to this journey in
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Tamil law. That's what I studied.
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I came out, I didn't really know what I was going to do with it,
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a bit like having done English literature or history.
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It's an arts degree. I ended up working in marketing
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for the London College of Fashion.
3:00
Very different. I did that for a couple of years
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and then sort of sort of figured out I did.
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I did for myself need something a bit more structured, A
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profession, something that offered some direction and
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structure. I had been thinking when I was
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still at university about the possibility of converting to
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law. So that's what I did.
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I spent a year doing the conversion course and I worked
3:21
again for a bit and then did my legal practice course as it was
3:24
called at the time. Ended up doing a training
3:26
contract in a firm that no longer exists in size City firm.
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They had a family department. I did my first seat in corporate
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and I think everyone saw me very much as I was going to be a
3:38
corporate lawyer. I think I was able to play that
3:41
role and portray myself. I was working very early in the
3:43
morning, a little late at night as I still do, as it happens in
3:46
family law because I was doing I'm the head of the family
3:49
department, which was quite a small department in this firm.
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He found out that I spoke French and he needed someone to make a
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telephone call from him to a no tear in France to discuss a
4:02
consent order. And so he had me called up.
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So someone came to, got an e-mail and he was quite a scary
4:08
guy. Anyway, so I was this young
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fresh trainee in the corporate department.
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I've been there a few months. I went up all the way up to the
4:13
top of this building to this sort of small departments buried
4:16
away and he sort of talked me through what a consent order
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was. He explained a little bit what
4:22
the call was going to be about and why they needed to make it.
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I quite enjoyed that whole interaction.
4:28
I made the phone call and it went very well and I was able to
4:31
demonstrate my French language skills to him.
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I went off, but as I was going back down the stairs, all the
4:37
floors, this building, I went past the HR department and I
4:41
went down and I put my head around the corner said you know
4:43
the seat up in family, I'd already it was going to be my
4:46
third. I had to pick a third seat
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forcing and asked them is it still going?
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And yes, no one wanted the family seat For these reasons
4:55
and this chew on it And I was like, yeah, I'll take it, but
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that was it. Interestingly, it was the third
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seat. And when you do your four seats
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on a training contract, the third one tends to be the one
5:04
you try to pick as the one you think you might want to qualify
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into. It kind of happened on that day
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by accident. So I did my family seat, really
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enjoyed it. So they were doing some high net
5:15
worth cases which aren't reflective of real life, but
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it's quite exciting. So that's how I decided that I
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would then continue into family law.
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For me, it was a good balance between looking after people,
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which is I like to do private client work, which is also a
5:29
seat. I did and I knew I was going
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into that because it was a good contrast with corporate when I
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was trying to decide where I would go as I realized private
5:36
client was perhaps a bit slow, you have to drive things along.
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I decided that corporate wasn't really for me.
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It was a good balance between private client work, looking
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after people, and that litigation that might happen and
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the litigation that does happen. It drives things along a bit
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more. So it suited, I think, my
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personality, where I could be looking after people, trying to
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avoid conflict. Probably a theme of my family
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law practice. I'll always go to litigation if
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I need to, but fundamentally I'd like to avoid it, which I
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suppose is why I've taken to mediation.
6:07
But you've always got that tension between the two.
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It keeps you going. Yeah, exactly.
6:14
It keeps you going. It keeps you moving, keeps you
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having to think, strategize. And I think that's part of the
6:18
client. I wouldn't have been able to.
6:20
And just quickly how come you speak French so well?
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Well, my parents moved to France in the late 80's, the victim of
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that the British dream of leaving the high paced life of
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the United Kingdom and enjoying a life in the sun really.
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So they moved to the southwest of France when I just under the
6:41
age of 3. So I ended up starting a French
6:44
school. They wanted to integrate French
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society, French life, and so I went to French school from the
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age of three until I did my Bouvy de Collage.
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So I did that and then I and then for various reasons decided
6:55
to convert back to the English system.
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I did A levels from France. I was still in France until the
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age of 17. I did my levels there.
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I did them by correspondence day.
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It worked out with a view to coming back and studying in
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England. That's important for the job
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you're doing now. Your French background is really
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helpful. It does give me the cultural
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affinity. You probably know living in the
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UK yourself and also being French.
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It's very important to French people especially that you try
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to speak French. I think so many British people
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get away with not going abroad and not speaking the language.
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And the French have always very like, no, absolutely not that
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we're not going to allow it. But when it comes to the
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interactions we have with clients and especially with the
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word, I put myself out there obviously as being violent.
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If you actually are, they really like it.
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They're like, oh, someone who can actually speak French and
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understands the nuances of the language.
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And when things get lost in translation or things are
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translated wrongly, I know, I can see it.
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I know, I know what you're saying, but you mean this kind
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of thing? So I can see that in written
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correspondence also when I'm talking to clients.
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And it's often they choose, you know, many of my clients have
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lived in this country for a long time, so they speak English, but
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they still have these kind of perhaps slightly different ways
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of expressing certain things, which I then understand as being
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that's coming from the French. But you're meaning this.
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And so it definitely helps. Yeah.
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It's reassuring for them, even though they'll speak English.
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Do you? It's just knowing that you
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understand what where it's coming.
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From exactly that, and sometimes it's sometimes only have to say
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a few things in French, but then they know and that they're very
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comfortable. It is going to be an
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understanding there. It just helps.
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So what are the most common issues you see in Franco British
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cases and what makes them maybe more complex than others?
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The issues that come up tend to be related to properties and
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property ownership and then the sale or the transfer of those
8:55
properties. They're quite frequent and
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they're not overly complex once you get used to them.
9:00
But the way property is owned in France can be slightly
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different. You get things like tax
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consequences as well on the sale.
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You get tax consequences on divorce.
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And so you just have to be careful.
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You just have to give some thoughts sometimes if possible,
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as to the timing of when assets are sold or or transferred.
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Because if it's in the context of a divorce, it can be quite
9:24
slow. It can be complex.
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There can be a number of tax consequences that make that
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especially not so much a fine for French people because they
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expect it, they know the system and know how slow it can be and
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all these things you have to go through.
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But I find when you get Anglo French couples or particularly
9:40
English couples who've gone and lived out in France or got
9:43
assets out there and they've come back, I've had some very
9:45
strange situations and I still do it on cases they've
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surprised. Even little things like
9:50
properties don't always gain the value that you might consider
9:54
they would in England. They sort of are not stagnate,
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but they're more steady growth, cost of sale, you know.
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So it's not, it's not that they're particularly complex,
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it's that they can be a bit of a shock when you've got cost of
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sale or cost of no tears and you could, I mean, these things come
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in and when people don't know, get all of that confirmed and
10:10
explained. The more complex things might be
10:12
related to things like children, but that's a slightly different
10:16
issue. So people might divorce in
10:18
England, but they've got children in France or vice
10:21
versa. And so you have to explain that
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actually you can deal with the finances here, but the children
10:25
in this country or this jurisdiction, and the children
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can be very black and white in the way in which that's dealt
10:30
with. Issues of pensions come up.
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Pensions can be tricky. I've got a case where a French
10:35
couple were living in the UK for a long time, had children, built
10:38
up pensions, and then they've moved, they've sold everything,
10:41
but they've kept the pension, they've moved back, but because
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they're both French, they've suddenly got these assets that
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actually the French court can't deal with.
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You can usually find a way around if things are amicable,
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but if things aren't, it can become quite tricky.
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And there's different concepts of premarital assets.
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Assets become matrimonialized, they're very foreign concepts to
11:04
French law, and you get a real mix.
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And once that starts at play, it can be tricky to unpick it and
11:09
explain it. It's really important because
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that's where you make a difference compared to a
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solicitor who has no knowledge of French law and of all the
11:20
things that you have to look out for.
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Sometimes they will say, OK, you have an asset in France, but
11:26
we'll just deal with it when the time comes.
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And then they don't know that you have to look into all the
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taxes and vice versa. It's true that in France with
11:36
the issues of the English pensions which are not treated
11:40
the same way in France, makes the difference for the clients.
11:44
You just start to develop just an awareness that every
11:46
situation is different and so you're just sort of flagging it
11:49
up. And so that's why it helps.
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Then once you've done enough of these cases over the years that
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you can flag them up very early on.
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Yeah, I've got a very interesting one at the moment,
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and this is 1, which is to do with the packs.
12:00
So packs presents difficulty because they're recognized as a
12:04
civil partnership in this jurisdiction.
12:08
And so then all the rights and claims potentially flow from
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that. If you've got a French couple
12:12
that have moved to this jurisdiction, packs without it
12:14
being dissolved and people not realizing and then French people
12:17
being in this jurisdiction signing up for the packs whilst
12:20
they're living and not realizing what they're doing.
12:22
And I've got one person at the moment who's thinking about
12:25
getting one because he wants to move to Hong Kong with his
12:29
partner for visa issues and wants, but he's got all the
12:32
assets so he wants to protect them and so have an English
12:35
prenup. What does that mean in Hong Kong
12:37
then they want to come back and live in France in six years
12:39
time. I'm not yet, but what does that
12:41
mean there? What about if the law changes?
12:43
You might be able to dissolve it, but are you creating a
12:45
situation by getting a prenup? Just have to highlight this.
12:51
You're there on that first call and they're like, oh, right,
12:53
yeah, that's interesting. And thought of that.
12:56
You're going to have to get advice there.
12:57
You're going to have to get advice here and and France, Hong
13:00
Kong development. The awareness is so important
13:04
because often professionals are a bit afraid of what they don't
13:09
know. And instead of owning up,
13:12
they'll just say, oh, you know, we'll talk about this later.
13:15
The. Problem with English law is it's
13:17
so discretionary. We will recognize a lot of
13:20
things. People.
13:21
Is my divorce recognize? Yes, it will be recognized in
13:23
the UK, it's fine. So it's very flexible, very
13:26
discretionary. But it's not the case the other
13:29
way. Talking about complications, I
13:30
have another case with a couple of our clients living in
13:34
Portugal. When you've got the other party
13:35
in France, they've been through a divorce, but the French court
13:38
couldn't deal with the sale of a property.
13:40
So then you have to find a piece of legislation to deal with that
13:43
sale. But you've got to be careful
13:45
when you do it so as not to trigger a whole set of new
13:49
claims. So under what legislation and
13:51
all this and waiting years? I think we had to wait four
13:54
years before we got to the finalization of the French
13:56
divorce because it took so long. And then we've now got a
13:58
situation where the English court actually, because they're
14:00
being faced with something which is a little bit unusual, is also
14:03
being really slow. So it's another year's gone by.
14:08
So what should clients understand about jurisdiction or
14:13
the key legal cultural differences between the French
14:16
and the the English legal system?
14:21
The key ones, I mean, I think just building on what I was just
14:25
saying, I think it's that the civil law system that you have
14:29
in France is going to be, in most cases, a lot more black and
14:34
white. I think you've got these
14:38
established rules and they've followed.
14:40
There's a lot less discretion involved.
14:43
For instance for the division of assets.
14:46
Exactly according to your. Matrimonial regime and yeah.
14:49
Liquidation. The regime matrimonial is very.
14:52
Yeah. You have.
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Rules and you apply them. Exactly.
14:56
And I think when you then come and you're divorcing in this
14:59
country, it's not being able to give that black and white
15:03
answer. This is the structure.
15:04
This is what we're going to calculate.
15:06
This is where it's going to be drawn.
15:07
We often say, oh, it's going to be somewhere between here and
15:10
here. I'll try to get you here, but be
15:13
here. That's the cultural difference.
15:15
It's a legal difference as well, trying to convey that, and that
15:19
can take several weeks. Another client at the moment
15:21
who's really having to wrap his head around this because he came
15:26
to that initial meeting thinking we had to do the divorce in this
15:29
country. Was never going to fly in France
15:32
because I've been here for over 10 years, married in this
15:34
country and all the assets are here.
15:36
But he came to the meeting and almost didn't tell me things
15:40
because he didn't think that they would be relevant.
15:42
So didn't matter how many questions I asked him, he made
15:45
his mind up that it was going to be dealt because he was coming
15:47
from the French cultural perspective where things like
15:49
disclosure, the concept of disclosure the same.
15:52
We disclose everything. Doesn't mean it's matrimonial
15:55
and that it's going to be divided, but you start from the
15:58
point of you disclose everything worldwide.
16:00
In France, my understanding is that it's different.
16:02
If your partner doesn't know about it, you don't need to tell
16:04
them about it. It's up to them to find out.
16:08
So you're coming from different, completely different sort of
16:11
angle at things. And so things like that can be
16:14
quite difficult to, to explain get around that would be one of
16:18
them. And things like marriage
16:19
contracts, if we're talking about the vision matter in the
16:22
aisle, which starts right at the beginning, doesn't have a
16:24
marriage. There's standard marriage
16:26
contracts that you sign up, you pick.
16:28
If you don't pick, you just get a default, right.
16:31
And so that's very much done. And when I found you were
16:34
talking about the French community in England, since, you
16:38
know, often it's sort of perceived as being sort of very
16:40
much a W London type thing. And it's only when you start to
16:44
get involved in that, but you realize that the French
16:46
community is all over the UK. And so you get all sorts of
16:49
people, very big demographic. And they don't necessarily
16:52
always think about these things. They might be not wealthy.
16:56
You think W London are very wealthy.
16:57
They'll have advisors, lawyers, accountants and this will come
17:00
up and you get a lot of regular families and levels of assets.
17:05
And so Con Calamari, as they're living here, they've moved here,
17:07
they've never thought about it. They assume that they're bound
17:10
by this black and white contract and they're not.
17:14
There is a recent case for which will support recognition of more
17:18
and more. I think the recognition of
17:20
marriage contracts will, you know, will happen.
17:23
But but as it stands, it's still really just depends on the
17:26
situation where there's not extreme wealth or it's not high
17:28
net worth, then in fact, the more likely these contracts are
17:31
going to be ignored. And that comes as a bit of a
17:34
shock. You know, the legality is the
17:37
cultural side of that. Yeah, yeah.
17:39
So moving on to this cultural side because I can see a
17:42
difference from 10 years ago with regards to those marital
17:47
contracts slash prenups and the way that we've been dealing with
17:52
setting them up. Have you seen something change
17:55
in the way people really look into getting into those
18:00
agreements? In England we used to say, oh,
18:02
they're not enforcing. Both of us in it was where
18:05
people knew, people started talking about them, but it was
18:09
in the higher net worth circles, families with big money, big
18:13
inheritance, who might be thinking about this.
18:15
What I'm finding is that it's a lot more Anglo French couples.
18:19
There's a much more awareness, so French couples rather than
18:21
mixed Anglo French. But French couples who are
18:23
living in his jurisdiction have become aware.
18:27
So they culturally have an understanding.
18:29
They know that there's going to be a contract.
18:31
Then they look into it and then they realize, oh, we can't do
18:34
this. So I need to get some advice.
18:36
I'm getting other clients like that who are trying to do
18:39
something that's far more French culturally, but do it in its
18:43
jurisdiction is really interesting.
18:44
They're not necessarily high net worth.
18:46
It's just because they're not. No, this is how we understand
18:49
things should be. If we were living in France,
18:51
this is what would happen. My assets would be mine, yours
18:54
would be yours. So they're using English prenups
18:56
to achieve that. That's quite interesting.
18:58
Generally, I think I'm finding with British couple, English,
19:01
let's say, then couples that don't have that French
19:03
Connection who are becoming much more aware.
19:06
I think that's just an agenda. You know, as things happen,
19:08
perhaps like with mediation, which we've speak about, but
19:11
over time the awareness just starts to grow.
19:14
And it's the same with prenups, you know, that people are just
19:17
becoming aware so they're more willing to think about them.
19:21
So you're getting a shift on the British side and it's the
19:23
awareness, I think on the French side that they can't just
19:26
automatically rely on these marriage contracts that they may
19:28
be bringing over or think that they can sign up to.
19:30
A lot of my advice is people living in this country quite
19:34
settled, I love it here. We're now very confused because
19:37
we don't know whether we want to go back to France or at least
19:39
not until we retire. But you're trying to assess that
19:43
and it says where is the risk? Then a big bit of my advice is
19:46
always to, and this comes from French lawyers I've spoken to
19:49
you don't some jurisdictions you can have a mirror agreement.
19:53
So for example, I don't quote me necessarily, but again,
19:56
impression with the US you get an English prenup.
19:58
You might have a mirror one in the US, whichever state you're
20:01
going to be living in with France.
20:03
So you don't so, so you've got to pick and you've got to pick
20:05
based on risk and exposure. And it's about trying to assess
20:08
that. And it's about having that chat
20:09
initially with what are you doing with your life?
20:11
How do you feel? It's it's quick questions.
20:13
You wouldn't normally like, how do you feel about living in
20:15
England and Wales? Do you like it or are you just
20:17
here for work? Are you going to go back?
20:18
And you get so many different responses, but that's really
20:22
what you have to then base for where you expose.
20:24
Where's your risk? It's interesting when you have
20:27
young couples because you're asking them, So what, what are
20:31
your plans? And they're like, well, we don't
20:33
know. We have no idea.
20:34
And what I usually say is that in any case, a prenup, you need
20:39
to redo it when you have important changes in your family
20:42
life or your professional life when you move to another
20:45
country. So that's more reassuring than
20:49
to say, well, you're doing a document, but you don't know if
20:54
it's going to be valid when you actually need it.
20:57
Yeah, exactly. And so then it's on them, isn't
20:59
it, to really listen to that, remember that advice and to make
21:02
sure that they do get updating advice and perhaps updating
21:05
document as and when the time comes.
21:07
Yeah. Interesting.
21:09
So let's talk about the other side of your work, which is
21:13
mediation. So you are now an accredited
21:16
family mediator. Congratulations.
21:20
So why did you decide to train as a mediator and become a
21:23
mediator? I suppose it's that, as I was
21:27
saying earlier, I think in my solicitor work, I've now been,
21:32
it's almost 13 years I've been qualified now.
21:35
I think in those early years I wasn't one to jump to litigation
21:38
and go for the fight. My motto is always, there's
21:41
always time for war. It's very hard once you started
21:45
a war and conflict to come back from it and to not have the
21:49
trauma of that. Once you've started, it's pretty
21:53
difficult to come back from it intact.
21:55
And so I always try to, I suppose slow people from taking
21:59
that course of action. And so mediation from that
22:02
perspective made sense. I did the training, I did it in,
22:05
it was 2021, so quite some time ago now.
22:08
The other thing to mention is I think when I started in 2013,
22:11
when I was qualified, mediation was very much lawyers venture
22:15
Pooh poohing mediation as sort of a soft option and sort of
22:20
just, you know, you only set mediation indications you
22:22
couldn't be bothered to do really.
22:24
But the English court, the system as it's overloaded,
22:26
underfunded has been like, well, what where how can we avoid
22:30
this? What is the thing that's working
22:32
the best? So there's been this growth and
22:33
awareness, a real push on mediation.
22:35
I think I just caught that wave at the right time.
22:38
There's a lot of demand for it. All cases have to be thinking
22:41
about your non court dispute resolution and mediation seems
22:44
to be the one option. It's been quite successful and
22:47
worked really well. And when you do the training,
22:49
you realize that there's a real skill.
22:51
It's no soft option. The techniques involved, the
22:54
whole procedure is quite tough. Fundamentally, I found it's
22:57
because when you're a celesty, you're just dealing with one
22:59
person and it might be a high level of emotion, a lot of
23:02
things to deal with, but you're just dealing with one person and
23:04
you're doubling that effectively by sitting in the same room as
23:08
two people who are in a dispute. And there's a lot of tension and
23:11
you're having as a mediator to absorb all of that.
23:15
And you can't legally advise. I certainly can't legal advice.
23:18
And so you're absorbing it. I find it emotionally kind of
23:21
exhausting. They teach you this on the
23:23
course. They take a moment just sitting
23:25
there and of course you thinking, OK, that was quite
23:26
intense. It's only when you start doing
23:28
that's what that was about, because sometimes you come out
23:31
of a mediation after an hour, 2 hours usually, and you feel like
23:35
you've been hit by a bus because there's so much emotion, there's
23:37
so much tension. You're trying to gently hold it
23:40
together and not let it unravel, but sometimes do because that's
23:45
important as well. I found that's a technique to
23:47
let people have their moments, say the things.
23:50
They're there to talk, aren't they, And to be heard.
23:52
Sometimes they've never had the opportunity to really say what
23:55
they. It turns into a bit of a
23:56
counselling, which you obviously want to avoid, but it's a bit
23:58
like that. And so you thought to take on
24:01
board. I think you just fitted with my
24:03
practice and my personality and what I like to get to in a case
24:08
which is ultimately a resolution.
24:11
So are there any misconception about mediation, maybe what you
24:16
were saying about the the emotional side?
24:19
There's misconceptions from lawyers, but that's being
24:21
resolved as time's gone on in the last years.
24:22
I think that lawyers, solicitors are far more aware of the power,
24:26
the impact of mediation and it's not a soft option really.
24:30
And it really is a good starting point always, if possible.
24:35
I think that the misconceptions from the client side that you
24:37
can give legal advice, so they think you're a lawyer for two
24:40
people. So you very quickly have to say,
24:42
no, actually you have to understand limitations from that
24:45
perspective. And so I'm not there to, you
24:48
know, I would say I'll give as much guidance as I can, but I'm
24:51
ultimately going to be stuck at some point and you'll have to go
24:54
off and get your legal advice. I think there's that
24:56
misconception. There's a misconception as to
24:58
how far you can go to intervene and determine.
25:00
You can't determine things. People are there to make their
25:03
own decisions and you're trying to guide them towards it perhaps
25:06
and to unlock things, but you're certainly not there to make
25:09
their decision to impose a decision on someone criticized.
25:12
I think some people come into mediation hoping to sort of
25:15
maybe an extension of, and this is what we have to do as
25:17
mediators identify that power imbalance where there's
25:21
effectively an element of abuse. It might not be at a level which
25:25
prevents mediation, but someone's trying to use
25:27
mediation as a way of harassing their ex partner or get what
25:30
they want so that you're there to say no, I'm not going to be
25:33
that tool for you do. You think that mediation is a
25:38
good tool for cross-border cases?
25:43
Yes, it can be. It can be quite complex because
25:46
of these cultural differences, these legal differences that
25:50
you've got to really think about the parameters of that
25:53
mediation, what your mediation agreement is, whether you're
25:56
doing on a jurisdiction neutral basis.
25:59
So where you're sort of trying, but that's quite a difficult
26:01
line to tread, especially where there's going to be the big
26:04
contrast between what each party is 1.
26:07
You know, one party is going to be trying to effectively utilize
26:09
1 jurisdiction, the other, you know the the other jurisdiction
26:13
and the benefit from those differences.
26:14
To find the middle ground can be quite tricky, but it's certainly
26:18
better to try to resolve that and address that in the
26:21
mediation or find the middle ground than to end up in a
26:23
complex jurisdictional battle. It's extremely costly.
26:27
I find it's always easier to try and find some kind of middle
26:32
ground to start with other than to go to college.
26:36
There's children in the case. And really my conclusion is that
26:41
whichever jurisdiction deals with it is going to come up with
26:45
a solution. There might be a different
26:47
approach to it, but the solution is never.
26:49
Sometimes it might be we were talking about the contractor
26:51
called Santa Mahayash, which can provide this, so that clearly if
26:54
you were divorcing in France, can really benefit one party or
26:57
the other. But my understanding is you then
26:59
got Quest. That's your compost as well.
27:01
Exactly so at the end of the day.
27:03
To rebalance things and some French is a lump sum, isn't it?
27:08
That compensates for the imbalance in the capital assets
27:11
and perhaps even income needs some extent.
27:15
And then there's going to be income needs that are going to
27:16
be addressed, which are our side.
27:18
So it fundamentally you just end up going through achieving this,
27:22
you know, seizing A jurisdiction for perceived benefits.
27:25
There's not many cases where that's really going to work
27:28
unless perhaps in very, very high net worth cases where
27:30
there's a real disparity and something to be gained.
27:32
But otherwise you're probably spending a large proportion of
27:35
the assets on legal fees. So in your opinion, what are are
27:39
the preventative steps that couples could take in order to
27:43
avoid complications later on in those cross-border cases?
27:51
Well, I suppose always take early legal advice.
27:57
Do not make assumptions I suppose about the jurisdiction
28:01
that you want or you think that you want to just get advice on
28:04
these cross-border cases. It's usually what we're going to
28:05
advise anyway is you've come to see me to understand the English
28:10
perspective and how the English law would work if this is where
28:13
separation or there are children issues take place.
28:17
But go to the go and get some specialist advice in that other
28:20
jurisdiction and understand where there might be
28:22
differences. But actually you probably could
28:25
find there aren't. As I say, there might be a
28:27
different way of approaching it, but actually it's not the
28:29
outcome. Is the outcome really going to
28:31
be that beneficial always? I think early early advice.
28:35
Because even if you go to mediation afterwards, knowing
28:38
what your rights are and your obligation is always better to
28:43
be able to have those conversations.
28:45
And have the lawyers in the background to be able to go back
28:49
to because as I was saying earlier, we are sort of limited.
28:52
And especially if you're trying to, if you're very much in the
28:54
sort of jurisdiction neutral sort of approach, then you're
28:58
going to need those lawyers behind jurisdiction neutral.
29:00
I've done it with another lawyer.
29:01
So I've done it with a French lawyer.
29:03
So you have a French lawyer. So it's all working from a
29:05
jurisdiction neutral, but can offer the guidance from a French
29:08
perspective, perhaps from the law and the court's approach.
29:11
And then I would be there to sort of do the same on the
29:13
English side of things to thinking about things like that
29:16
if you've got these cross jurisdictional issues.
29:18
The Co mediation. So Co mediation, there's a bit
29:21
more, you know, I think people and I'll say you're asking about
29:24
cultural differences earlier. I think with French facts, they
29:27
are taken aback by the costs. I don't know whether you find
29:29
that, which is surprising because I, I wouldn't have
29:33
thought it would be such a difference, but they do find
29:35
that litigating in England is much more expensive and the
29:41
costs are less in France. I'm always a bit surprised by
29:43
that. But they do see a difference and
29:44
so shy away a little bit from that.
29:47
And I would say just remember, you know, if this costly dispute
29:50
at stake assets and just put it into perspective.
29:54
I see people go off and get massages or go to physios and
29:58
things without blinking an eye. And then you say, oh, you've got
30:00
to get some legal advice. It's like the whole mental
30:02
health thing. People won't look after that,
30:04
but they'll be spending on private medical insurance and
30:06
never utilize it. They haven't mental health, they
30:08
won't go to counselling. It's like that with law really.
30:11
People choose different. Remember that if you're heading
30:13
into a divorce or separation, if you've got complex children
30:16
issues, children law is quite black and white.
30:18
You've got to be very careful about what you can see to in
30:22
terms of where the children are going to go and live, whether
30:23
they go and live in another jurisdiction.
30:26
Take some early advice, spend the money on it, understand what
30:29
you're dealing with. Especially for the children
30:32
matters. So last question.
30:35
So what do you find the most rewarding about the work you do?
30:39
It's rewarding. I particularly enjoy those
30:43
initial interactions, initial meetings, because you've people
30:49
are coming, you know, there's very worried, usually very
30:53
anxious. You can really in a fairly short
30:55
space of time pull them out of that dark cloud of worry and
30:58
anxiety about divorce, which has this huge emotional weight,
31:03
doesn't it? And it's quite complex legally
31:05
as we've been talking about. And to make them feel like we
31:08
understand that we're going to be able to unpick this.
31:10
So it's fine, you know, don't worry too much and give them
31:13
some tools, you know, whichever way they decide to go, whether
31:15
they're going to deal with it themselves, whether they're
31:16
going to go to mediation or whether they're going to
31:18
instruct you as a lawyer from the outset.
31:21
Yeah. So I think, I think I've got a
31:22
lot of satisfaction from that. Yeah.
31:24
Resolving cases. There's a misconception that
31:27
lawyers are there to break something.
31:29
You're not. It's already broken.
31:31
Right now, work is often trying to pick up the piece and find a
31:34
hand. You can repair it and build
31:36
something, get people back on their feet.
31:38
I enjoy that song in a very general sense.
31:40
And then the mediation has become a way of seeing that
31:43
first hand with your participants rather than your
31:46
clients. And when you can get them to a
31:48
point where they find that middle ground again and that
31:51
understanding and realise that they can work together and there
31:55
is a solution, it's really nice. And you get this nice moment to
31:59
the ends of so a bit of harmony and you never know how long it
32:02
lasts. You hope that it does.
32:04
Good reports. I've been in touch with people
32:06
months after meeting. Yeah, it's all been great.
32:07
We've really been able to communicate and things have been
32:10
working really well and it's really nice to experience that
32:13
first hand. Sometimes clients, you've been
32:14
their lawyer and you know that they're content, I suppose with
32:18
what's. But they go off and they kind
32:20
of, they associate you with what's been a difficult chapter
32:24
in their lives. You never really know.
32:25
But with mediation, yet a bit more insight into those moments
32:29
of interaction with their ex partner, she's nice.
32:33
Thank you so much for sharing all this with us today on the
32:38
podcast. It's really insightful to hear
32:41
your perspective. It's reassuring to hear other
32:44
people have the same take because we didn't have any books
32:48
on it or we have had to learn from experience.
32:52
And it's nice to have this community of lawyers, border
32:54
lawyers and mediators to talk about those things.
32:59
I I find there's this emotional and human side to cross-border
33:03
cases that's bring something more and.
33:07
You can involve the mediation because you're pulling them away
33:10
from the legalities of it and the quite complex and costly
33:14
prospect into well you. If you mediate and you don't
33:18
need any of the jurisdiction, you don't need any, then you
33:20
just pick where it's formalized. So it becomes an important place
33:24
to start and see if you can achieve that.
33:26
And again, it's quite satisfying.
33:29
You're right, that experience is what makes us a fairly unique
33:31
kind of group of lawyers and mediators is.
33:35
There more and more clients who need legal advice on
33:38
cross-border matters, and I think what you said about
33:43
getting early advice is really important and understanding the
33:48
legal differences between common law and civil law, which is
33:53
they're completely different and it's a completely different way
33:56
of thinking also. So the fact that you're able to
34:00
explain that to them and reassure them is really
34:03
important. I will put all the details in
34:06
the podcast notes. So thank you so much for coming
34:08
today. Thank you so much.
34:10
So, Jane, it's been a real pleasure.
34:12
Thank you.