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Wife Slams Down Phone when HUBBY CONFESSES TO DELPHI DOUBLE MURDERS ON JAILHOUSE PHONE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
0:13
Speaker 2: A bombshell for the state's case and the Delphi prosecution,
0:19
Speaker 2: the case regarding the murders of Abby and Liberty, thirteen
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Speaker 2: and fourteen year old girls that were brutally murdered. I'm
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Speaker 2: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
0:35
Speaker 2: with us here at Foxination in serious XM one eleven.
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Speaker 3: This is the bombshell.
0:43
Speaker 2: Has the prime suspect actually given a confession? Did he
0:50
Speaker 2: know he was being recorded? Doesn't matter? Did he give
0:57
Speaker 2: a confession? Take a listen to our friends at WRTV.
1:02
Speaker 4: The judge deciding that the public should see one hundred
1:05
Speaker 4: and eighteen of the one hundred and thirty six documents
1:08
Speaker 4: that have been filed through the courts. The documents revealed
1:11
Speaker 4: the following Richard Allen admitted to his wife and a
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Speaker 4: jail house phone call to.
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Speaker 3: Killing Abby and Libby.
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Speaker 4: Several times his wife hung up the phone. The documents
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Speaker 4: also revealed for the first time how the girls died,
1:23
Speaker 4: saying an autopsy revealed their wounds were caused by a
1:26
Speaker 4: sharp object. Documents go on to say that the girl's
1:29
Speaker 4: clothes were found down the creek, but a pair of
1:32
Speaker 4: underwear and a sock was missing from the crime scene.
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Speaker 2: Is it true Lenny was recorded talking to his wife
1:39
Speaker 2: and admitting he murdered these two little girls, forcing them
1:45
Speaker 2: down off that trestle bridge and then murdering them. Take
1:51
Speaker 2: a listen now to our friends at CBS four.
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Speaker 5: Now, the other thing that really sticks out in these
1:57
Speaker 5: documents is that back in April, Richard Allen called his
2:00
Speaker 5: wife from prison and admitted several times that he killed
2:03
Speaker 5: Abby and Libby. That confession was brought up at Alan
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Speaker 5: Flask court hearing, and it happened right around the time
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Speaker 5: that his defense attorneys claimed that his mental health was
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Speaker 5: declining and then he needed to be moved out of
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Speaker 5: the Westfield Correctional Facility.
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Speaker 2: Okay, we know that there are motions and complaints about
2:21
Speaker 2: the CI correction institution that yelled that he's in from
2:25
Speaker 2: which he's making these calls. We'll get to that, But
2:30
Speaker 2: this is not just about confessions alleged confessions. Take a
2:35
Speaker 2: listen to our cut one twelve, our friends at w TR.
2:40
Speaker 6: And for the first time we learned that investigators believe
2:42
Speaker 6: a knife was used in the murders. Court records say
2:46
Speaker 6: articles of clothing from the girls were missing from the scene,
2:49
Speaker 6: including a pair of underwear and a sock. Clothes from
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Speaker 6: both girls were found down the creek, and four other
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Speaker 6: girls also saw the man on the bridge that day
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Speaker 6: and describe him as kind of creepy and he seemed
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Speaker 6: to be in a grumpy mood. And a woman says
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Speaker 6: she later saw the man in the bridge video walking
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Speaker 6: down the road wearing a blue jacket and jeans. He
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Speaker 6: was muddy and bloody, she said, and looked like he
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Speaker 6: had been in a fight.
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Speaker 2: Dear Lord in Heaven when I think about what happened
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Speaker 2: to these two girls, joining me an all star panel
3:22
Speaker 2: to make sense what we know right now. But first
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Speaker 2: to the host of a new hit series, Zone seven,
3:31
Speaker 2: also founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCollum,
3:35
Speaker 2: joining us, Cheryl, we said from the beginning, as did you,
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Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, There's no way he did not take
3:44
Speaker 2: a souvenir from the scene, which is completely creepy. And
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Speaker 2: I'll bring in doctor Bethany on this in a moment.
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Speaker 2: But I like to scrapbook all things about my children, John,
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Speaker 2: David and Lucy, my twins. But for a killer, they
4:00
Speaker 2: say mementos like I put in a scrapbook, like a sock,
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Speaker 2: like a pair of underwear.
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Speaker 3: You said it on day one, Cheryl, and I agree
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Speaker 3: with you.
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Speaker 7: Yep, there was no chance he didn't take a souvenir.
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Speaker 7: This was, in a really twisted way, the biggest thing
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Speaker 7: he's ever done in his life. He wanted something to
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Speaker 7: remember it by. So I mean again, sadly, I mean
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Speaker 7: you and I tell people this all the time when
4:29
Speaker 7: we're right.
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Speaker 8: It's not good news.
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Speaker 2: And you know Joscott Morgan. A search of his home
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Speaker 2: did not turn up the underwear, but that does not
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Speaker 2: mean that he didn't take it. I want you to
4:40
Speaker 2: analyze what we're learning from this female witness. I haven't
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Speaker 2: even gotten to the admissions. I'm going to go to
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Speaker 2: Onya Cain and Kevin Greenley on that, but Joe Scott
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Speaker 2: helped me. Guys with me is Joe Scott Morgan, Professor
4:53
Speaker 2: Forensics at Jacksonville State University. I've been there and they
4:56
Speaker 2: have an incredible criminal proceedature and criminology department. Author of
5:03
Speaker 2: Blood Beneath My Fate on Amazon and star of brand
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Speaker 2: new hit series.
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Speaker 3: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 2: Joe Scott the fact that a woman sees defendant Richard
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Speaker 2: Allen muddy and bloody. The day of the murders makes
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Speaker 2: me sick to my stomach because that tells me these
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Speaker 2: girls did not die quickly. They were sex assaulted in
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Speaker 2: one way or the other because their clothes were taken
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Speaker 2: off and missing.
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Speaker 3: When I was missing our.
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Speaker 2: Underwear, muddy and bloody, they fought for their lives.
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Speaker 3: Joe Scott.
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Speaker 8: Yeah, down in that little holler down there beneath that bridge.
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Speaker 8: I can only imagine, Nancy, how alone they were and
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Speaker 8: have terrified That area down there is so isolated and
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Speaker 8: there's no way I talked to Mike about this over God,
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Speaker 8: how many years has it been now, Nancy, We've sat
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Speaker 8: around and chat about this case over and over again.
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Speaker 8: You know, you talked about the missing underwear, and you know,
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Speaker 8: we think about souvenirs and that sort of thing. When
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Speaker 8: you have these fenders that will do that and they'll
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Speaker 8: take it in the squirrel it away, rat hole it
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Speaker 8: away so they can go back and reloop. He took
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Speaker 8: another souvenir with him as well, and that's that transfer
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Speaker 8: evidence on that clothing. One interesting thing that came out
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Speaker 8: to me and Nancy and a lot of stuff you're
6:32
Speaker 8: going to discuss that. What really kind of hit me
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Speaker 8: was this talk of this blue Carhart jacket that he
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Speaker 8: was known to possess, that his wife knew that he had,
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Speaker 8: and the fact that now we've got this witness that
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Speaker 8: is saved that not only was he covered in mud.
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Speaker 8: Remember this is a river bottom or creek bottom down
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Speaker 8: in that area, so you're gonna have a lot of
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Speaker 8: transfer from that, but she saw blood. She saw blood
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Speaker 8: on him, and he would have been bathed, Nancy, because
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Speaker 8: we know there wasn't just one. There were two of
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Speaker 8: these precious little girls that were killed. When I think
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Speaker 8: when it all comes out, it's gonna be anything beyond
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Speaker 8: our wildest nightmares that we can imagine what happened to.
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Speaker 3: You know, doctor Bethany Marshall joining.
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Speaker 2: Me, high profile psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills.
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Speaker 2: You can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com.
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Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany. I would have to force gerrrs when I
7:27
Speaker 2: would try cases to.
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Speaker 3: Think about the facts of the case. There's something about
7:34
Speaker 3: the way Joe Scott just said it. Two little girls
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Speaker 3: the age of my little girl, and you know how
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Speaker 3: tiny and fatigue.
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Speaker 2: My little Lucy is just beautiful on the inside and
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Speaker 2: out down there in the mud under a bridge alone.
8:00
Speaker 2: Know that they were unclothed, and we know now that
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Speaker 2: they fought. What demon from hell would make two little
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Speaker 2: girls strip and then fight them. He was covered in
8:20
Speaker 2: mud and covered in blood. I mean, he is straight
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Speaker 2: from the devil's bedroom.
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Speaker 3: And she's just awful. Who can do that to two
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Speaker 3: little girls?
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Speaker 7: You know, Nancy, I had the same thought as Joseph
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Speaker 7: Scott Morgan was talking. He paints a vivid picture of
8:41
Speaker 7: what these little girls went through. And in terms of
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Speaker 7: this guy.
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Speaker 9: Straight from hell, I mean, remember he worked at the
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Speaker 9: local CBS, so not only was he a sex predator,
8:50
Speaker 9: but he's kind of like a spider with weaving a web,
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Speaker 9: just waiting for little girls to come in and out.
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Speaker 7: I mean, this guy was probably waiting to rape too little.
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Speaker 9: Girls and was surveilling everybody in that little town, everybody
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Speaker 9: coming into the CBS, probably walking around in the woods waiting.
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Speaker 7: For two little girls. You know, in terms of who
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Speaker 7: was he, well, at the most benign level, he's a pedophile.
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Speaker 9: You know, not all pedophiles act out, but he's a
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Speaker 9: pedophile that did most do, and he's a pedophile that
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Speaker 9: acted out.
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Speaker 7: He is somebody who wants to control and possess children.
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Speaker 7: He probably was a sadist, in other words, that he
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Speaker 7: got off on inflicting cruelty on these little girls. I
9:37
Speaker 7: wonder if we're going to find out that their genitalia
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Speaker 7: was mutilated or some other evidence like that on the bodies.
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Speaker 7: I'm sure that there was something about inflicting terror on
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Speaker 7: them that was sexually satisfying to him. Who was he psychologically?
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Speaker 9: This is a man who masturbated quite a bit while
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Speaker 9: thinking about children, and at some point in his masturbatory
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Speaker 9: life that was not enough. He graduated to controlling children
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Speaker 9: in his fantasy life, and then inflicting cruelty on children,
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Speaker 9: and then killing children. I've talked to pedophiles like this
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Speaker 9: where they describe a gradual escalation in not only their
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Speaker 9: sexual fantasy fantasies and masturbatory life, but then what they
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Speaker 9: searched for online in order to satisfy those fantasies. And invariably,
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Speaker 9: as they tell the story, they say something like, you
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Speaker 9: know what, I couldn't get off just looking at children,
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Speaker 9: so that I had to look at children who's been kidnapped.
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Speaker 7: Well, then I had to look at children who had
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Speaker 7: bags over their heads, you know that I had to
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Speaker 7: That goes on and on and on, and that I
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Speaker 7: usually discover that that's actually a rationalization that they were
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Speaker 7: sexual status from the get go. But they're just telling
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Speaker 7: me a certain kind of story to make it seem
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Speaker 7: as if they had to graduate to worse and worse
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Speaker 7: fetishized fantasies in order to increase their sexual excitement, whereas
11:08
Speaker 7: in fact that's what they were to begin with.
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Speaker 9: That's how they came into this world. And I would
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Speaker 9: think on the day that these girls were murdered, this
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Speaker 9: guy was probably I'm sorry to use the word sexual
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Speaker 9: so many times, but I think he was in some
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Speaker 9: kind of a sexual frenzy and he was going to
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Speaker 9: do as much harm as he could to these poor
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Speaker 9: little girls in order.
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Speaker 7: To, I don't know, excite himself, to masturbate, to have
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Speaker 7: a sense of dominance, a sense of being at the
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Speaker 7: center of the world. And then that was not enough.
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Speaker 9: Then he had to take objects from them to continue
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Speaker 9: his masturbatory life, because that's what these trophies are all about.
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Speaker 10: Remember this was the day before Valentine's Day and clearly
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Speaker 10: he left a signature on his work, which was that
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Speaker 10: expended rent, not expended round, but the ejected cycle.
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Speaker 8: Round from his weapon. In the two.
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Speaker 2: Girls, Guys, You're hearing, Dale Carson, renowned criminal defense journey,
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Speaker 2: joining us out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction, not only veteran
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Speaker 2: trial lawyer, but former FBI agent and author of Arrest
12:18
Speaker 2: Proof Yourself. You can find him at del Carson Law
12:21
Speaker 2: dot com. That's a whole noother animal right there. The
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Speaker 2: fact that this was at Valentine's Day, the occurrence the murderers.
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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Any Kine is joining US journalist and co creator of
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Speaker 2: the Murder Sheet podcast along with Kevin Greenley. He was
12:56
Speaker 2: also joining us not only co creator of the Murder
12:59
Speaker 2: Sheet podcast, but lawyer as well in the Delphi jurisdiction,
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Speaker 2: which is Indiana. Let's focus on what we do know,
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Speaker 2: and that is there is evidence that more than one
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Speaker 2: confession was given. Tell me about it, any Kine, And
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Speaker 2: of course we wouldn't know any of this if it
13:18
Speaker 2: hadn't been for you and Kevin Greenley. Filing emotion for
13:22
Speaker 2: documents and evidence to be released to the public, which
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Speaker 2: I'm also going to address but can I talk about
13:29
Speaker 2: the confessions?
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Speaker 3: How many confessions are we talking about? To whom?
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Speaker 2: And does anybody in their right mind not know the
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Speaker 2: jailhouse calls are being recorded. I mean every x number
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Speaker 2: of seconds you hear a recording go, this is from
13:43
Speaker 2: a correctional facility. Everybody knows that it's being recorded. Why
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Speaker 2: did this idiot give a confession to his wife?
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Speaker 11: Right?
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Speaker 12: And it's one of those things where I mean this
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Speaker 12: to us is like the bombshell contained in both these
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Speaker 12: documents and the recent into June fifteenth hearing in the case,
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Speaker 12: because we're learning that it's not one confession, it's five
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Speaker 12: to six confessions, and it's not to a jail house
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Speaker 12: smitch he might be unreliable. It's to his life on
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Speaker 12: a recorded line. As you said, he has no expectation
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Speaker 12: of privacy whether he's in jail or prison. So prosecutor
14:18
Speaker 12: can absolutely use this.
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Speaker 8: Now.
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Speaker 12: Where the defense is coming in and where they're going
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Speaker 12: to try to pick this apart is saying, hey, it's
14:24
Speaker 12: not really a confession, it's just a bunch of incoherent,
14:26
Speaker 12: incriminating statements, and you know he's kind of losing his
14:30
Speaker 12: mind right now, because of bad prison condition. So that's
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Speaker 12: their point. Prosecution is going to be saying, listen, no
14:36
Speaker 12: one was coercing him here.
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Speaker 8: This is his wife. I mean, she is so.
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Speaker 12: Upset by this exchange. She hangs up on him.
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Speaker 3: Do you have any idea what his actual words were, Anya.
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Speaker 12: No, that's a crucial thing, right the transcript.
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Speaker 7: What did he say?
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Speaker 12: Did he have details? Was this all over the course
14:53
Speaker 12: of one phone call or was this like a ramping
14:55
Speaker 12: up over time, And so we don't know exactly what
14:58
Speaker 12: he said. We do you know that his defense attorney
15:01
Speaker 12: characterized it as totally incoherent and inconsistent. So he's basically saying,
15:06
Speaker 12: don't listen to that. He's just basically losing it and
15:09
Speaker 12: saying whatever. And so that's his characterization. But we do
15:14
Speaker 12: know that prosecutor Nick mcclearland, he's been focused on this
15:17
Speaker 12: and he's been saying multiple confessions, you know, and in
15:20
Speaker 12: it's in person, doesn't do this. And basically McCleland is
15:24
Speaker 12: saying that, yes, he is having a mental deterioration, but
15:27
Speaker 12: it's because he's you know, because the case, it's because
15:29
Speaker 12: he feels guilty.
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Speaker 8: It's because he's losing control.
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Speaker 2: And it's because the world has found out that he's
15:34
Speaker 2: the prime suspect and a double murder of two little girls.
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Speaker 2: Before that, he was carrying on perfectly fine at his
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Speaker 2: job at CBS. Kevin Greenley with me, Indiana lawyer, co
15:43
Speaker 2: creator of the Murder Sheep podcast. Also, if it weren't
15:47
Speaker 2: for Kevin Greenley and Anya Kane and the Murder Sheep
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Speaker 2: Podcast who filed a motion for the release of documents
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Speaker 2: in evidence, we wouldn't know about all this. So you know,
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Speaker 2: Kevin Greenley from your work called Murder Sheet podcast, but
16:03
Speaker 2: also as a lawyer, they may the defense may try
16:07
Speaker 2: to claim, ohbaweight, he's talking to his wife, husband wife privilege.
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Speaker 2: You can't use that statement in court number one. Apparently
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Speaker 2: there are other confessions he made, we hope to other people.
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Speaker 2: But also if a third party is present during that
16:26
Speaker 2: otherwise privileged communication, that defeats the privilege. So if you
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Speaker 2: say something to your spouse and somebody else is there,
16:36
Speaker 2: like you're at a cocktail party and go, hey, by
16:38
Speaker 2: the way, I did that murder and there's somebody else
16:41
Speaker 2: standing there, you don't have a privilege. And here this
16:45
Speaker 2: is at a jail house on the phone where everyone
16:49
Speaker 2: knows or should know the phone calls are recorded and
16:52
Speaker 2: there are other people around that could have ever heard him,
16:55
Speaker 2: So that defeats any husband wife privilege claim.
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Speaker 11: I absolutely agreed that this phone call is not covered
17:02
Speaker 11: by privilege, especially since it was reported. The privilege at
17:07
Speaker 11: the very most wouldn't mean the Kathy Allen, Richard Allen's wife,
17:11
Speaker 11: would not be forced to testify about this phone call.
17:15
Speaker 11: But we don't even need her testimony because we have
17:17
Speaker 11: the actual recording, and both Richard Allen and his wife
17:21
Speaker 11: were aware that it was being recorded because as you mentioned,
17:25
Speaker 11: that constantly said and repeated throughout the course of the
17:28
Speaker 11: phone call. And also we do know he did confess
17:31
Speaker 11: to at least one other person because in the court
17:34
Speaker 11: document it indicates he also confessed in some manner over
17:38
Speaker 11: the phone to his mother.
17:39
Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you right now there is no
17:41
Speaker 2: mother son privilege, and we learned that Well, it came
17:45
Speaker 2: to the public's consciousness during the Monica Lewinsky incident with
17:50
Speaker 2: Clinton because her mother was called to a grand jury
17:53
Speaker 2: and she did not want to go. She went kicking
17:55
Speaker 2: and screaming. But there is no parent child confidential reality.
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Speaker 2: You either have to be held in contempt if you
18:04
Speaker 2: don't testify, or get up on the stand and tell
18:06
Speaker 2: the truth, or get up on the stand and lie
18:08
Speaker 2: and commit perjury. Those are your three choices as a
18:12
Speaker 2: parent to a suspect. Guys A lot happening. But we
18:16
Speaker 2: heard Anya describing Anya Kinge joining us describing defendant Richard
18:22
Speaker 2: Allen the Delphi murders of Abby and Libby. I don't
18:26
Speaker 2: want their names lost in the sauce as mentally deteriorating.
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Speaker 2: Now we've learned one thing he's doing behind bars is
18:36
Speaker 2: he's taking the papers that as defense lawyers are giving
18:40
Speaker 2: him motions, notes, whatever, wedding them and eating them. Cheryl
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Speaker 2: McCollum joining me, star of Zone seven podcast, Cold Case
18:54
Speaker 2: three Research Institute founder Cheryl. I had a defendant that
19:00
Speaker 2: I was planning to try for murder, and he would
19:04
Speaker 2: there's no nice way to put it. I'll say defecate, okay,
19:07
Speaker 2: I'll go with that in his jail cell and then
19:09
Speaker 2: smear it on the walls.
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Speaker 3: And the defense couldn't wait to tell me about it.
19:16
Speaker 2: That guy he was acting out to try and get
19:21
Speaker 2: an incompetency defense. What he's doing now right now in
19:27
Speaker 2: jail doesn't matter. That goes to incompetence that you can't
19:33
Speaker 2: help your lawyer. What would help him, if anything, would
19:37
Speaker 2: be an insanity defense. Did you know right from wrong
19:40
Speaker 2: at the time of the incident. Now I don't believe. Yeah, yeah,
19:45
Speaker 2: yeah they do. They have the insanity defense. Don't you
19:48
Speaker 2: have the insanity defense? Kevin Greenley in Indiana?
19:50
Speaker 8: Yes, yes, we do.
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Speaker 3: Okay, it's Idaho that does not recognize an insanity defense.
19:56
Speaker 2: So I would counter that claim, Cheryl, with the fact
19:59
Speaker 2: that he hid evidence, acting normally after the ends, after
20:04
Speaker 2: the murders, went back to work.
20:07
Speaker 3: Was even photoed with.
20:09
Speaker 2: His wife at a bar celebrating something like it wasn't
20:13
Speaker 2: a hooter's but a hooter's tight bar. And right above
20:16
Speaker 2: his head is do you know this man? And there
20:20
Speaker 2: was a do you remember that shot? And there was
20:23
Speaker 2: a composite drawing of him. And he's sitting right under him,
20:28
Speaker 2: you know, holding up a beer. He's fine, and he
20:31
Speaker 2: can water down all of his defense motions all he
20:35
Speaker 2: wants and eat him with us sterling silver fork for
20:38
Speaker 2: all I care.
20:39
Speaker 3: Doesn't matter, Nancy, who is this?
20:41
Speaker 11: Here's Dave Dell.
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Speaker 3: Go ahead, you're talking over Cheryl by the way.
20:45
Speaker 10: What you look at the photograph or ketch behind his head,
20:49
Speaker 10: you will notice an interesting thing. The guy's thin. He's
20:53
Speaker 10: got long hair and no facial hair, and Allan has
20:58
Speaker 10: court hair and facial hair. Now, so the preparation may
21:04
Speaker 10: not be for an insanity defense. The preparation may be
21:07
Speaker 10: for incompetent to proceed, which avoids the death penalty for
21:12
Speaker 10: a period of time until this all goes away and
21:15
Speaker 10: it's forgotten and memory unless you keep it in the forefront.
21:18
Speaker 2: You know what I'm going to say to you, del
21:20
Speaker 2: cars number one. I don't like anything he just said.
21:22
Speaker 2: But as I often say to the twins when they're
21:25
Speaker 2: saying something that I don't like, I.
21:29
Speaker 3: Just say that over and over. I add to that, Wait,
21:32
Speaker 3: was that not intelligent?
21:34
Speaker 13: En?
21:35
Speaker 3: What jumpy?
21:37
Speaker 8: You?
21:37
Speaker 7: Please? When I talk over ryl and Dale.
21:40
Speaker 3: Bowls, as if I can stop you.
21:43
Speaker 7: The wedding, the papers, eating them, whatever he's doing. You know,
21:46
Speaker 7: there's a fancy word for that in my field. It's
21:48
Speaker 7: called ma lingering. Lingering when you make up some fictitious
21:52
Speaker 7: disorder in order to get out of some negative consequence,
21:55
Speaker 7: like like act like you have a brain tumor, so
21:57
Speaker 7: you don't have to be go to the army, you know,
22:01
Speaker 7: serve your duty, or to go to jail or something.
22:03
Speaker 9: So he's acting crazy so that he can, you know,
22:07
Speaker 9: get out of whatever consequences for this crime. But for
22:10
Speaker 9: the more, this confession to his wife, I don't hear
22:13
Speaker 9: it so much as a confession as telling her before
22:17
Speaker 9: all the facts get to her. And also he could
22:19
Speaker 9: be trying to get her to hide evidence, so you know,
22:22
Speaker 9: that goes to sort of this really clever, plotting, devious
22:27
Speaker 9: part of him, the same part of him that murdered
22:29
Speaker 9: and sex assaulted these girls. All at the same time,
22:32
Speaker 9: he's acting sort of crazy and disheveled and mentally ill.
22:36
Speaker 9: And you know, I just think it's messy. I think
22:38
Speaker 9: what these defendants do in jail all the time is
22:42
Speaker 9: kind of a predictable routine.
22:44
Speaker 2: Jackie's waving her arms all right, Nan Corner in the studio,
22:48
Speaker 2: I just want to get another Cheryl, And she's right,
22:51
Speaker 2: she wants me to remind everybody. A team of two
22:54
Speaker 2: psychiatrists and one psychologist evaluated Alan April fourteen, end quote
23:02
Speaker 2: determine Alan did not need involuntarily involuntary medication and that
23:08
Speaker 2: he was eating and sleeping just fine, just fine, Okay,
23:14
Speaker 2: jump in, Cheryl.
23:15
Speaker 7: Okay. The not eating was self imposed. I said it
23:19
Speaker 7: from day one. This was a hunger strike so that
23:22
Speaker 7: he would not look the same as Bridge guy. The
23:26
Speaker 7: not making phone calls again, his choice to not sleeping
23:29
Speaker 7: all him. Let's be real clear about an inmate code
23:35
Speaker 7: in prison. Other inmates look at a child molester or
23:39
Speaker 7: a child killer as the lowest of the low. Everybody
23:44
Speaker 7: knows those folks are not exactly safe inside. Who has
23:50
Speaker 7: written a letter about the abuse and mistreatment another pedophile?
23:55
Speaker 7: So birds of a feather once again. So this letter
23:58
Speaker 7: that this pedophilero says that he believes that Richard Allen
24:03
Speaker 7: they threatened his life, they told him he needed to
24:05
Speaker 7: kill his self. And then he names names. But you
24:08
Speaker 7: want me to believe you're in there the child molester.
24:11
Speaker 7: So you're already not safe. Now you've written this letter,
24:15
Speaker 7: this is published in front of God and country, where
24:17
Speaker 7: you name the people they're supposedly going to kill mister Allen.
24:22
Speaker 7: And now you're a snitch.
24:24
Speaker 3: Now you're a snitch.
24:27
Speaker 2: Guys, it's not just the confessions that are the huge
24:34
Speaker 2: torpedo to the defense case. Take a listen to our
24:40
Speaker 2: cut one zero eight.
24:43
Speaker 5: Richard Allen was interviewed by a d NR officer the
24:47
Speaker 5: day Libby Jermy and Abby Williams were murdered. He told
24:50
Speaker 5: them he was on the Monon high Bridge that day,
24:52
Speaker 5: But that interview went nowhere until it was re examined
24:56
Speaker 5: in September of last year. Now, shortly after that interview,
25:00
Speaker 5: you resurface. Investigators interviewed both Alan and his wife. Following
25:04
Speaker 5: that interview, they applied for a search warrant for Allan's home. Now,
25:08
Speaker 5: this is one of these new documents that we got today,
25:10
Speaker 5: that search warrant, and according to that, they seized a
25:13
Speaker 5: handgun and several bullet cartridges. You may remember investigators claimed
25:18
Speaker 5: that a bullet found between the girls' bodies had been
25:21
Speaker 5: cycled through Richard Allen's gun.
25:23
Speaker 2: This is integral two things out of what we just heard.
25:27
Speaker 2: Number One, Richard Allen was acting perfectly normally when he
25:32
Speaker 2: was interviewed immediately after the murders, soon after the murders,
25:36
Speaker 2: as was his wife. And don't you know, the wife
25:38
Speaker 2: had no idea. She finds out about it over a
25:41
Speaker 2: jailhouse phone call and immediately hangs the phone up. So
25:44
Speaker 2: It was just fine, working, acting normally, going out into
25:48
Speaker 2: bars and restaurants. Everything was as normal until now we
25:55
Speaker 2: started seating his defense papers behind borrowmon't eight. Remember Ted
25:58
Speaker 2: Bundy did that too. He lost wait intentionally so he
26:01
Speaker 2: could escape. But that said, why is it so critical
26:07
Speaker 2: that they performed the search at the home? Take a
26:11
Speaker 2: listen to our friends at ABC seven.
26:15
Speaker 14: Lawyers for Richard Allen have filed emotion asking that key
26:18
Speaker 14: ballistics evidence be thrown out at trial. Alan is accused
26:23
Speaker 14: of killing Abby Williams and Libby Jerman in twenty seventeen.
26:27
Speaker 14: According to investigators in unfired bullet was found between their bodies.
26:32
Speaker 14: It reportedly came from a gun belonging to Alan.
26:37
Speaker 2: That's why they don't want that, Eviden Sin because that
26:41
Speaker 2: weapon matches back to a bullet found at the crime scene.
26:48
Speaker 2: And No, I don't think the girls were shot. I
26:50
Speaker 2: think a sharp knife was used. Joe Scott Morgan joining
26:54
Speaker 2: US Professor Forensis Jacksonville State University. You and Chris McDuff,
27:00
Speaker 2: Director Cold Case Foundation and star of the Interview Room.
27:03
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut one one three our
27:06
Speaker 2: friends at WTCHR.
27:08
Speaker 6: Police searched Alan's home last October. They seized a handgun,
27:12
Speaker 6: which investigators believe Alan used in the crime, and matches
27:16
Speaker 6: an unspent bullet found next to the girl's bodies. About
27:20
Speaker 6: ten hunting and utility knives were also confiscated, along with
27:24
Speaker 6: a blue Carhart jacket and other clothes. Investigators also took
27:29
Speaker 6: carpet samples and swabs from the seatbelts in Alan's Ford
27:33
Speaker 6: Focus vehicle that they believed was seen on the trail
27:37
Speaker 6: that day, and Alan admitted in two different interviews that
27:40
Speaker 6: he was on the bridge that day. He says he
27:44
Speaker 6: went out on the bridge to watch the fish.
27:46
Speaker 3: Watch the fish, my rear end.
27:51
Speaker 2: Listen that water is so far beneath the trestle bridge.
27:56
Speaker 2: What fish is he watching at that desk?
28:00
Speaker 1: Since time Stories with Nancy Grace.
28:19
Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, and they've
28:23
Speaker 2: got one heck of a criminology department, author of Blood
28:26
Speaker 2: Beneath My Feet and host of a hit series Body
28:29
Speaker 2: Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott unspent bullet. Many
28:35
Speaker 2: people would say, how can you match an unfired bullet
28:41
Speaker 2: back to a gun? It was quote cycled through Richard
28:47
Speaker 2: Allen's gun.
28:48
Speaker 3: How do you approve that.
28:49
Speaker 8: Yeah, this weapon that he owned, Nancy is a sixth hour,
28:52
Speaker 8: which is a brand of handgun that he possessed, and
28:56
Speaker 8: he had had it for a number of years, for
28:58
Speaker 8: quite some timely according to reports. Here here's here's the baseline.
29:04
Speaker 8: Unlike a fired round that goes down the down the barrel,
29:08
Speaker 8: where you have the lands and grooves that are created, uh,
29:12
Speaker 8: the markings that are created on a fired projectile. It's
29:15
Speaker 8: a very specific ballistic signature when you have what they're
29:19
Speaker 8: talking about is a cycled a cycled round which is
29:23
Speaker 8: actually on the brass casing. So you have what are
29:27
Speaker 8: called extractor marks and ejector marks on the surface of
29:31
Speaker 8: these little brass cylinders that contain you know, that make
29:35
Speaker 8: up the live round, and their marks that are left
29:38
Speaker 8: behind on actually the sides of the brown of the
29:41
Speaker 8: brass tube okay, of the of the of the projectile,
29:45
Speaker 8: and also on the base of the projectile as well. Now,
29:49
Speaker 8: this is not a solid ballistic evidence to say a bullet,
29:54
Speaker 8: but it still matches up to this weapon and they've
29:57
Speaker 8: run it through the lab and these are going be
30:00
Speaker 8: a little striding marks on the side so they're saying
30:02
Speaker 8: that that round that was down near the bodies had
30:08
Speaker 8: actually been ejected out of this weapon. So what that
30:13
Speaker 8: means is is that he would have pulled this is
30:16
Speaker 8: a semi automatic hand gun.
30:18
Speaker 15: He would have pulled the slide back, okay, and the
30:21
Speaker 15: round would have gone flying through the air and it
30:24
Speaker 15: landed probably in leaves or in the grassy area adjacent
30:27
Speaker 15: to body, and they were able, they were able to
30:30
Speaker 15: recover this.
30:32
Speaker 8: I've thought about this somewhat, you see, and this is
30:34
Speaker 8: almost like, you know, when we think about that the
30:40
Speaker 8: mode of death is going to be some kind of
30:42
Speaker 8: sharp force of then okay, I think that this weapon,
30:48
Speaker 8: this weapon, the sixth hour, was used in order to
30:52
Speaker 8: plorize them. And who was acting perhaps as some kind
30:56
Speaker 8: of forgiven me, half ass fictional villain where he's threatening
31:03
Speaker 8: these little girls with this weapon and this act like
31:06
Speaker 8: you see in some kind of movie from Hollywood. He's
31:10
Speaker 8: pulling that slide back, it's making the sound and it
31:13
Speaker 8: makes a very distinctive metallic point as you pull it back,
31:18
Speaker 8: that round the jets out and it slams forward. It's
31:22
Speaker 8: going to threaten them. Who can get them to do
31:25
Speaker 8: whatever he wants? To do. Remember what he said up
31:28
Speaker 8: on the bridge, down the hill, down the hill, he's
31:32
Speaker 8: demonstrating that weapon at that moment in time. He gets
31:36
Speaker 8: them down there, he's got them corralled and this pre
31:40
Speaker 8: preset location, and he threatens him with this weapon. He
31:44
Speaker 8: pulls it back to demonstrate how menacing he is and
31:48
Speaker 8: he can get them to comply, these two little girls.
31:52
Speaker 7: Or he's demonstrating that he's the man, he has the weapon.
31:55
Speaker 7: He's like the big guy. Like maybe he's one of
31:58
Speaker 7: these men who feel small into side, but in relation
32:02
Speaker 7: to these two little girls, he feels powerful, he feels big.
32:05
Speaker 9: So part of it might be the heat acting menacing.
32:08
Speaker 9: I'm sure Jo Scott Morgan is more right than I am.
32:11
Speaker 9: But it also has a celebratory quality, Like we're near
32:15
Speaker 9: the fourth of July, people are shooting fireworks into the air.
32:18
Speaker 9: It's like an active jubilation. And it could be that
32:21
Speaker 9: this was his greatest moment of glory too, because it
32:24
Speaker 9: was shot into the air, not at them.
32:26
Speaker 2: Kevin really joining me Indiana lawyer or and co creator
32:29
Speaker 2: of the Murder Sheet podcast, Kevin, isn't it true that
32:35
Speaker 2: when one of the girls who was taking the picture
32:39
Speaker 2: of the part walking forward toward them on that bridge.
32:43
Speaker 2: Didn't one of them mention a gun?
32:45
Speaker 11: Yes, it is true that one of the girls mentioned
32:48
Speaker 11: a gun on that recording, and it's also true that
32:52
Speaker 11: that recording picked up the audio of a gun being clip.
32:55
Speaker 2: Okay, I please say that again and very slowly. I
32:57
Speaker 2: want everybody to hear that, because up until we get
33:00
Speaker 2: information because of you, Kevin Greenley and on you Caane,
33:05
Speaker 2: we didn't know all this. This has only recently come
33:08
Speaker 2: to light. Would you say that very slowly? Let it
33:11
Speaker 2: sink in.
33:12
Speaker 11: On that reporting, one of the girls mentioned the fact
33:17
Speaker 11: that this man has a gun, and also on that recording,
33:22
Speaker 11: it picks up the sound of a gun beams flip.
33:25
Speaker 2: Chris mcdonnald joining me, Director Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective,
33:29
Speaker 2: host of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, you're hearing
33:34
Speaker 2: what Joe Scott said and what Kevin Greenley said. Can
33:38
Speaker 2: you just imagine if you even let yourself let your
33:41
Speaker 2: mind go there, these two little girls down there in
33:45
Speaker 2: that mud under that bridge, and this a hole takes
33:51
Speaker 2: out a gun and Greenley says you can hear it
33:55
Speaker 2: where he I guess turns the chamber or menaces them
34:01
Speaker 2: with the gun. You can actually hear it. One of
34:04
Speaker 2: the girls still had her cell phone on and recording.
34:09
Speaker 2: What do you make of this, Chris mcdonna.
34:11
Speaker 13: Well, first of all, the victim that is seeing this
34:14
Speaker 13: gun is in pure terror at that moment enough to
34:18
Speaker 13: share that information with her girlfriend, and so it tells
34:23
Speaker 13: us a couple of things. Also about the motive of
34:27
Speaker 13: the suspect. He came to that place with two weapons,
34:32
Speaker 13: the gun, and now we learn that there was a
34:34
Speaker 13: knife involved. So he was preparing in his fantasy for
34:40
Speaker 13: any type of incident that potentially could present itself. So
34:45
Speaker 13: the knife as he gets down, as he uses the
34:48
Speaker 13: gun to get them down the hill, as Joe was
34:51
Speaker 13: talking about, I can imagine him, you know, using that
34:55
Speaker 13: weapon to control as a complete control tool, and you
34:59
Speaker 13: get the into a place where he now has one
35:02
Speaker 13: hundred percent advantage. But what's really horrifying about the death
35:08
Speaker 13: of these two children at the hands potentially allegedly if
35:12
Speaker 13: this is him, is the fact that now he personalizes
35:16
Speaker 13: it to the knife. And that's where the fantasy and
35:22
Speaker 13: all of the pre planning that the doc was talking
35:24
Speaker 13: about is now executed. And it's never the way they
35:29
Speaker 13: felt it was going to be and obviously in this case,
35:33
Speaker 13: there was evidence that the children started to flee. He
35:37
Speaker 13: was not prepared for that, and that's probably why we
35:39
Speaker 13: have the ejection of the round coming out of that gun,
35:43
Speaker 13: because you know, he may have just kind of racked
35:46
Speaker 13: that slide back and the round came out.
35:49
Speaker 2: And remember how close to the vast cops held all
35:52
Speaker 2: the evidence, Cheryl McCollum, We didn't know at the beginning
35:57
Speaker 2: an unspent round was found between the two girls' bodies.
36:02
Speaker 2: They didn't let that out, and it was a good
36:03
Speaker 2: thing they didn't because once later down the road, when
36:07
Speaker 2: they before the first one on the home, when they
36:09
Speaker 2: get that gun, then they can.
36:11
Speaker 3: Make the match.
36:12
Speaker 2: Don't you know If he knew that bullet was at
36:15
Speaker 2: the scene, he would.
36:16
Speaker 3: Have gotten rid of that gun.
36:17
Speaker 7: That's right, And it was a great possibility. He didn't
36:20
Speaker 7: even realize it. When he's so intent on making them
36:26
Speaker 7: terrified and he racks that weapon clearly pointing at one
36:30
Speaker 7: of them, then he may or may not even be
36:34
Speaker 7: aware that the bullet was left there. But Nancy, I
36:37
Speaker 7: want to go back to the bridge. Remember in the beginning,
36:40
Speaker 7: you and I had many conversations that I believed that
36:45
Speaker 7: picture that everybody put out was him turning around. He
36:49
Speaker 7: is way too close to the right side of that
36:51
Speaker 7: bridge and looks to me like his hip are coming
36:54
Speaker 7: back into the middle of the bridge. And I said,
36:57
Speaker 7: from the very beginning, no fourteen year old girl is
37:02
Speaker 7: going to videotape a man without something overtly already happening.
37:07
Speaker 7: I still believe he passed them, maybe showed them the gun,
37:11
Speaker 7: and then when he turned around, they knew, okay, something
37:15
Speaker 7: bad is going on. If you look at his right hand,
37:18
Speaker 7: his right elbow is bent. Is he fixing advrantish that
37:22
Speaker 7: weapon again as he's turning around. That is no doubt
37:25
Speaker 7: how he controlled them to get them to go down
37:27
Speaker 7: to the hill, to walk all the way to the
37:30
Speaker 7: place that he had already you know, pre picked out
37:33
Speaker 7: for the murder scene, there's no doubt in my mind.
37:37
Speaker 7: Then he, you know, cuts their throats. I believe I've
37:41
Speaker 7: always thought that's what he did, because there's no screaming,
37:43
Speaker 7: there's no gunfire, nobody hears anything, even though there's other
37:47
Speaker 7: people walking around. Then he stages the scene. He takes
37:50
Speaker 7: the items, and he walks back to his car, that's
37:53
Speaker 7: part two far away. This is not a dude that
37:56
Speaker 7: was in shape. He wouldn't part far away to then
38:01
Speaker 7: go hiking. That don't make no sense.
38:03
Speaker 2: Anya Cain joining US co creator Mercery podcast, Explain you
38:09
Speaker 2: and Kevin explain why you file the motion that has helped.
38:13
Speaker 3: Uncover all of this evidence.
38:15
Speaker 12: First to you, Anya, Absolutely, this case has been plagued
38:18
Speaker 12: by mystery from the beginning. The public wants to know
38:21
Speaker 12: who killed these beautiful girls, Why did this happen?
38:24
Speaker 7: Are we safe?
38:24
Speaker 8: Are our children safe?
38:26
Speaker 12: And for a lot of good reasons, I think the
38:30
Speaker 12: investigators have been very reluctant to part with any information.
38:33
Speaker 12: And frankly I get that keeping the bullet quiet for
38:38
Speaker 12: all these years, I think may turn out to be
38:40
Speaker 12: the crucial decision that solves this thing if Alan is convicted,
38:44
Speaker 12: and you know, the jury.
38:45
Speaker 8: Find goes that way.
38:47
Speaker 12: So I think, you know, but now is the time
38:49
Speaker 12: that we're going into trials that people need to know
38:52
Speaker 12: that this case has been investigated properly and that things
38:55
Speaker 12: you're preceding pre trial in a proper way. And can
38:58
Speaker 12: I just say, thinking about those two girls and then
39:00
Speaker 12: commenting on that bullet, I feel like they may have
39:03
Speaker 12: helped solve their own case here because that information was
39:07
Speaker 12: used by investigators, kept quiet by investigators, and ultimately matched
39:11
Speaker 12: to this gun potentially. And so I mean, I just
39:14
Speaker 12: the bravery that they displayed under such unimaginable circumstances just
39:18
Speaker 12: really stands out to me.
39:19
Speaker 3: It really does.
39:20
Speaker 2: Kevin Greenley, what moved you and Anya to file this
39:25
Speaker 2: motion so this evidence could be made public?
39:28
Speaker 11: Basically, this is one of the most important investigations in
39:34
Speaker 11: the history of the state of Indiana, and I believe
39:37
Speaker 11: that people of the state, the people of this country,
39:40
Speaker 11: the people of the world have a lot of questions
39:42
Speaker 11: about how it was conducted and how different resources were used,
39:48
Speaker 11: and whether or not mistakes were made, or whether or
39:50
Speaker 11: not decisions were made properly. That we just didn't have
39:53
Speaker 11: the information to evaluate the time, and so much of
39:57
Speaker 11: that was being kept secret, and it was being kept secrets,
40:00
Speaker 11: in our opinion, unnecessarily. So we filed this notion with
40:04
Speaker 11: the judge basically saying, if there's no reason to keep
40:08
Speaker 11: these documents secret anymore, since we're entering this trial phase,
40:13
Speaker 11: please just go ahead and release as much as you can.
40:16
Speaker 11: And we were really gratified and pleased that she agreed
40:19
Speaker 11: with us and ended up releasing some man of these documents.
40:22
Speaker 2: Thank you to Kevin Greenley and Anya Kane for allowing
40:27
Speaker 2: us the opportunity to evaluate the evidence as we know
40:32
Speaker 2: it now. Confessions match up with bullets ballistics evidence. What
40:39
Speaker 2: more does the state have in its arsenal of evidence
40:44
Speaker 2: against Richard Allen? We wait as the evidence unfolds. Goodbye man,