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Nick Reich - Every Player is Bigger than the Program · Books4Guys

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Nick, man, so good.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I had to push record because I had a feeling we were about to jump into some really good conversation as my brain was already starting to uh get the wheels turning as I was thinking about your book.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I'll announce it here in a second as your book comes out this year.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's gonna have a big impact because there's not another book that is tailored the way yours is.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: But man, good to have you on the podcast.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Chris.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to be in conversation with you.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm gonna go ahead and your book is called Every Player Is Bigger Than the Program.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: And Nick, I don't want to say too much.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I want I want you to describe your mission and story behind putting this together as it's gonna be released a little bit later this year, but you're already putting it out there for people to pre-order and kind of look through it.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so, man, where where did the idea come from and what sparked this?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the book comes out September 8th, but pre-orders are up and moving, which is great.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, way back now, almost 20 years ago, I was hired as the school social worker of an inner city charter school halfway through year two of the school's existence.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: There were no formal programs, no athletics, nothing like that.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: That first year, we wanted to do basically inner mural program.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: We wanted to just give the kids something to do after school.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we would walk down to a little community center a few blocks from where our school was.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: We would play pickup games, and then, you know, that was kind of the gist of it.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Going into the next year, which was the third full-time year of the school, my first full-time year, we decided to apply to the IHSAA here in Indiana to be a real basketball program.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we got accepted at that time, really early on in the charter school movement.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we had a probationary year where we could play a varsity schedule, but we could not compete in the state tournament.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that was really year one.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I had spent a lot of time that summer, you know, meeting kids, going to parks, all these different things, just trying to put a team together in some ways.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: That that first year, uh, we were the bad news bears, and there's lots of stories in the book, and it was pretty wild, but we did not have a gym.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: We never had a gym in the four years that I was coaching.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then fast forward, we became the fastest team in Indiana history to ever win a high school basketball state championship.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we won uh the single A state championship in Indiana in 2011, and that was the last game that I ever coached.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so big deal in Indiana.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Indiana basketball state.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: My my fun fact is I was the hundredth different coach in Indiana history to win a high school state championship.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And there's some lots of amazing coaches.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: What I knew then was there are a lot of coaches who are a lot better than I am.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then so as I've gone over the last 15 years in my career of leading organizations and consulting with organizations and coaching with leaders, I'm always really curious to understand high-performing teams, high-performing cultures, and the leaders that make it possible.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've asked hundreds of leaders around the country, how many amazing, phenomenal gold standard leaders have you had in your life and career?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Normally that answer, Chris, lands about two.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if I say, how many awful, toxic, horrible leaders have you had in your life and career?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Usually that number lands about six plus.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: But if I ask you, what are the characteristics of those two great leaders?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very small number of answers.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: We know what this looks like, yet there's this huge gap in delivery.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a lot of what I spend my time thinking about and talking about and writing about is if we know what good leadership looks like, why do our people experience bad leaders three to four times?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a lot of what the basketball story is used to tell, you know, in the book.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is I say it's a leadership book through a basketball story.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's very fascinating.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: I can I I can assume just how much enjoyment you've gotten uncovering some of the just stats and in the conversations you've had.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was telling you before I pushed record on some of the the correlating thoughts I had when I was looking through your book.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: One was a recent comment.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm from Arkansas, so I'm a big Razorback fan, John Calipari, and he's notorious for being loved by his players.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And just and he's he said something about a month ago in a press conference where he he said, it is about the name on the back of the jersey.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: It is about these kids.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because you hear so many people say, and you, you, you hint at this, it's about the process, or it's the it's whatever we have in place.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about the people.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: We can just plug and play.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that he's totally opposite of that.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, no, it's about the players.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not, we're not winning without these guys.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was thinking about Nick Saban, too, which he's known as like the process guy, but he also is known to say, I it's a recruiting is the most important thing to him.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: So he's he's obviously saying, I can't do the process without the best players.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I was thinking of those two examples when I was looking through the notes on your book.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're they're great examples, right?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think even Kurt Signetti at Indiana has come up a lot, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Very much a process guy, but every single interview is like, you know, they would ask about it.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the very first thing that he said every single game was, it's about the people.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the people.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I was a hard ass when I was a coach.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: I yelled and I screamed and all these things.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And high expectations, high accountability is one of the core kind of tenets in the playbook.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't soft leadership.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have expectations, you have to have all of those things, and you gotta have a process.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to people have to understand the game plan, where you're going, how you're going to get there, what their role is.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: All of those things are true, and you can still center the human as part of it, right?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you you ask about the title.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was probably 2015.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: There was this follow-up that had happened.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I remember just talking to the reporter, and I said, you know, I've I grew up in sports, I played college basketball, I coached, I've been around coaches for a long time, and I've heard tons of coaches say, no player is bigger than the program.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: My philosophy from day one was every player is bigger than the program.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe because we didn't have a program, right?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: We were building it.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: But what I've seen and what I've learned is when you center the people first, and then you build the process and the systems around that, again, are people centered, the outcome is going to take care of itself.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Build the people, build the culture, you know, then you're gonna get the results that you want.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's often flipped.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think we we start with the wrong thing in mind, which is I'm only worried about wins, I'm only worried about championships, I'm only worried about sales, I'm only worried about quarter new quarterly revenue reports, whatever it is.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we miss the opportunity to really build the team and the culture through the people, which I believe are gonna take you farther in wins and championships and revenue than you would otherwise.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I'm gonna say something about business side too.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: I keep reverting to sports, but you were saying the system's bigger than any player.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Coaches say that, but you constantly see the most successful coaches are the ones that change their system to the players.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm specifically specifically thinking football in that terms.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you see, so many times a coach tries to force their system on a quarterback that doesn't fit it well and it goes south super fast.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: But the best coaches, they design the plays around that guy so that he can be the most successful.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, duh, like that obviously works way more than than the alternative, but you constantly see coaches still think their system is the best.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it just it just seems like a no-brainer as someone looking from afar, you're like, just change the system, make it fit them, you know?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's who you gotta work with if you want to win.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Change yourself, I guess.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people have a hard time, I guess, with changing their their own selves.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and that's probably another thing you talk about and have learned is just how difficult maybe that is for some people.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: No player is bigger than the program, I believe, is ego driven and a bit of insecurity, right?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: What a coach is really saying is no player is bigger than me.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is what they're really saying when a coach says that I am the person who developed this, I am the person who's this, I am the program.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: No players more important than I am sure we keep people in their place, right?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a common thing that we've seen in business across all of these times as well, is you know, I'm up here, this hierarchy.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I don't believe that we should have consensus-based decision making.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that, you know, everyone gets away with everything that they want to do.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's not at all what we're saying here.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's about, you know, centering the human.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so the book presents what I call the people first playbook, which is how do you actually put these things into practice?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it starts with purpose.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really what you were talking about is it's really driving into your why, your core, because the only way you can make changes for the things around you is by starting inside with yourself.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't have that grounding purpose for, you know, who you are as a human, who you want to be as a leader, then you know, a lot of that changes.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you talked about kind of putting people in position to be successful.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about KYP, know your personnel.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the book is called Connection.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: I always tell the story my point guard passed the ball to our center, 30 feet away from the basket.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: The center dribbles the ball off of his foot out of bounds.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: The crowd moans and groans, and everybody's like, you know, oh, you suck, right?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the center's fault, Chris.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the point guard's fault for passing him the ball 30 feet away from the basket.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to put your people in a position to be successful.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you don't, that's on you, not on them.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: How I'm trying to think on the business side, because you, I'm the exact same way.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I can specifically point out, and I always tell people, you know, obviously I work with TechStream, and I have some of the best leaders, and I can I can spout off why they're the best.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: I work with A players who are always trying to help each other.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Leadership's never pounding their fist, it's how can I help you?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: There are expectations, and everyone knows those clear expectations, but they're also there almost as a servant leader to say, what can I do to help you be better?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I've also experienced the alternative, which you explained early on too.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, man, this is just not working, and I I don't understand this person.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: But when you work with organizations and coach them on this, what are some of the, and I know you mentioned ego and and people think no one's bigger than them because of a title, but what are some other things you find that you have to help these leaders work through?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess I'm asking, like, why are we, why are there so many issues around that to begin with?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: How did we get to that point to where we have more of the bad than the good?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a great question.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think a couple of things, Chris.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like one, you know, the system was designed for, you know, productivity and assembly lines, right?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're working out of an outdated leadership playbook.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the things that worked in the 1940s, the 1950s, whatever the case is, it's not the same style of leadership.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that it's we're looking for different outcomes using the same playbook.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, first and foremost, we're working out of an outdated playbook.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Second, when when you're talking about basketball or any sport, you say when you get tired, you resort to your habits.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what happens in leadership when you know someone comes in, they've been promoted because they're a high performer, they're a good salesperson.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: So now you're the sales manager.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean that that good salesperson is going to be a good leader of people, but they're often not given the resources, they're not given the time, they're not given the training, whatever it is to develop that, because it's a shift in mindset that's different between getting results through myself.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And now my job is to get results through other people.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very, very different.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when we get caught in what I like to call the tyranny of the moment, you fall back to your habits, which is everything is moving fast, you go to changes.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to reflect what I've seen in the leaders that I had or that came before me, or that I think is what makes a good leader.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I go through the Rolodex of what I've seen in the past, and I see coaches yelling and screaming, I see leaders pounding the fists on the table, you know, all these things.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, well, that must be what it means to be a leader or to be a boss.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I'm going to go do.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And whether or not you forget that it probably didn't work when they did it to you, it didn't feel good when it happened to you, but like, well, that's what leadership is.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it means to be a boss.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've got to drive and get the most out of my people.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I have to go do.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the work that I like to do and that we try to do is how do we get to some of this stuff early?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I like working with young men in their 20s and 30s, new on their leadership journey.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: How do we connect the dots for them to say there's a different way to lead with empathy, with vulnerability, dare I say, with love, that's really going to challenge what's possible for our organizations and teams moving forward.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, your example hit spot on about, and I'm so glad you brought that up because I kind of forgot about it.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: But you were talking about how you you resort to what you've seen and what you've experienced.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember specifically, I was managing my own office as a late 20-year-old, and I remember I was working for the individual who had the militaristic approach, and I was not like that, but I had hired several of my friends, we worked great together.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember one specific day that individual had come down on me hard, and then I tried his approach on my team, and I remember feeling such, such like an idiot because they looked at me like this is not you.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I felt horrible about it.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, This is this is awful.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: You you take what you're experiencing, and I just when you were saying that, I was like, I remember that moment that I did the same thing, and it was the worst feeling ever.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad I recognized it, you know.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people get thrown into positions that they're maybe not ready for or properly trained for.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I think your book and your work is so important.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, trying to catch people earlier in this learning process so that they can be molded into better leaders that have different and better approaches so that they can be successful long term, their teams can be successful, the organization can be more successful.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I just I think what you've how you're phrasing this, Nick, is again very important.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And of I think it can have a huge impact as you can get into the right people in the right places to get this thing going.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Cause again, no one's really saying that that term, the players are the most important, you know, and it like it's always the system.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I just think I love this approach.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I can't say that enough.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I appreciate it.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when I work with organizations, always so the brand doesn't breathe, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think every employee is bigger than the brand.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think every player is bigger than the program, right?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about the name in business, especially when we work, we act like people should just be honored to show up and put on this metaphorical business jersey, right?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're paying you, that's great.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Show up and do your job, is fine.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say when you invest on the name in the back of the jersey, it's going to take you farther than the name on the front of the jersey ever could.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So again, it's this is not anti-program, it's not anti-system, it's not anti-process.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, all of those things we we talk about in the book.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: What it is, is is pro-human.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's pro-people, right?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's just caring about your people, putting them in a position to be successful.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: But again, it's not, it's not easy.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I would argue that it's probably much more difficult to lead and to coach that way.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it takes more intentionality, to which is a word I come back to a lot.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: How intentional are we about what we're doing, why we're doing it, the way we're treating people, the legacy that I'm trying to create?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got to keep those things top of mind daily in every interaction because we're all having an impact.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're all leaving a legacy every single day in the work that we're doing.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Nick, when you're coaching and going into organizations to have this discussion, I'm assuming this is a process that isn't something that can be implemented after an hour, you know, pep talk or, you know, even like a week-long session of going through this.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: What's your approach, and I guess how long does it take for organizations?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it may be different based on size and all of that, but but what's, I guess, your personal thoughts on how long it takes and how do you go about trying to help organizations really create that shift intentionally instead of just hearing the message and hopefully they do it?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a good point.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think what what we know is that change happens over time, growth happens over time.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it is sometimes I'm brought in and I'm speaking to an organization for an hour, doing a keynote, whatever the case is.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: I've got some that are half day workshops, but really what we like to see is, you know, it's a six-month, it's an eight-month program.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a growth experience.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: We build in pre and post assessments.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, like there's any number of ways that we can do that with cohorts of leaders.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: But like your point, it's size, shape of the organization, all of that really matters.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: What we do is being really intentional around how we can co-create something with you and your organization and your leaders that is meaningful and impactful with where people are today, recognizing that every organization is going to invest in a hundred leaders going through a six-month workshop.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I don't ever want to come in to an organization and say, here's what I do and here's what I give, and this is what we're gonna do.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is your packaged approach, right?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna be able to say, you know, what do what do you need?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: What do your leaders need?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: What's your culture look like today?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then build something with them, with the leaders, with the organization that matters to them.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, it's the same way around like the people first, right?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not about my system and process.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not here to give you all of the answers.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: My goal is to come in and help ask the right questions and provide a different way to think about the work that you're doing, the way that you're leading.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not telling you how to think and I'm not telling you what to do.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hoping to offer a different way to think about the work that you're doing, that you can lean into a space that you feel is your authentic design and leadership that works for you.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Nick, just a couple more questions for you.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I know your book's not officially out yet.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And as it gets closer, too, we will certainly push the book again and let people know it's officially out so that they can go purchase it if they haven't already pre-ordered it.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: But when people read your book, what is a message, if nothing else, what is one thing you hope people take away after they finish your book?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think the the theme that runs or anything that runs throughout is really around relationships.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Everything that happens or happened is due to relationships.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think more than anything, it's honoring and valuing and respecting and acknowledging those relationships that we have and recognizing.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a story that I tell in the book.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: When I was a senior in high school, fortunately for me, I still had an opportunity to go play a couple of years of college basketball.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: But halfway through my senior year, I quit my high school basketball team.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Never been, you know, much trouble.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was a weird situation.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was frustrated after a game.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I quit.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I go in the the next week, and the coach says, Well, you got to come in, you got to sit down, you got to apologize, you got to do all these things.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I did.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I sat down, I apologized.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really sorry, it was a mistake.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Please take me back.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, No.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that was it.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think through, you know, very early on in my coaching, you also have these examples of the type of leaders and the type of coaches and the type of people that you also don't want to be, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: So when I think about the relationship thread, it's also really understanding these dynamics of, you know, the people that are involved in and how do I understand how I want to show up and be for my people.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: More than anything.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Those relationships, Chris, are really the things that carry us through.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think you'll see that in the book, that through thread is really all about relationships, you know, good, bad, and otherwise.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, and it's funny, it's a lot of this stuff, Nick, it's like we hear it and we know it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, relationships are important.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know people are important, but for some reason or another, it's one of those things that's just it's something we've gotta continue to hear and practice over and over again to get really good at it.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh, you know, again, you can ask somebody to be like, oh yeah, relationships, and yeah, they you need to treat people the right way and and prioritize them, but it but it's just one of those things.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Even even the best, they need coaching around this to continue to be to be their best.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Even even great coaches have mentors.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so, again, I just think that this process and this curriculum that you're putting together for this is gonna have a big impact.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm excited to uh to read your book.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to see all the organizations you get to work with and and hear all the positive results from it because without a doubt, it's gonna have a big impact.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: But Nick, just a few non-business, more fun questions for you.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Basketball fan, I want to go there first.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, growing up, what was your are you a bigger college basketball fan or a bigger NBA fan?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I am definitely was and still a bigger college basketball fan, huge college basketball fan.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not ever really so much on the NBA side, but yeah, very much a huge college basketball fan.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, March Madness just came here to Indianapolis, was really the hub of all things college basketball.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So got to go downtown and experience that.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, college basketball every day of the week.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Probably followed by high school basketball, then the NBA.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: March Madness is legit my favorite time of year.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: I get a little depressed when it ends.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm such a big football guy, but I will choose March Madness over any football event.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm big college as well over anything professional.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: But one last question for you, Nick, and I ask everybody this that comes on the Books for Guys podcast, just from a book standpoint.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always interested to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally, and what's a book or two that you like to recommend to others when asked?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, part of the the that's a tough question, Chris.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Part of the thing that I like so much about what you're doing is someone that, you know, was a huge reader when I was a kid, probably didn't read a book for 15 years when my kids were young and married and new, and now I'm probably reading a hundred books a year, give or take.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I love the work that that you all are doing at Books for Guys, first and foremost.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a hard question because it could, it depends on timing of life, what you're experiencing.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's such a hard question.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is, yeah.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, one one of the things I I just happen to see John Gordon books are always great.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I the books that I give my kids, I like the way John approaches the the work that he does with the books.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and I like to think that that my book is a similar vein.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's quick, it's easy to read, it's a story with a message, you know.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I like all of the John Gordon books and his message around, you know, positive leadership and and some of these things and always a sports theme in there.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: So certainly uh some of those books are are pretty impactful.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, that's a tough question, Chris.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd have to give that one some thought.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: But let's let's stick to to the series of John Gordon books for your listeners as a good starting place.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, all good.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm just fascinated on on what people are reading and and just curious to know if it's books I've read before, are they books I should add to my reading list, you know, just just people read so many different things, and that's really the purpose behind books for guys, too, is never to tell anyone what to read, but to provide as many options out there so that you can read what you're interested in.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully that'll trigger you to continue reading and learning and growing.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but just a question again, I like to ask around that.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: But Nick, man, thank you so much for doing this.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I the book is is scheduled for release as we enter the early part of fall, but it's already out there, so you can you can pre-order it, you can see what it's all about.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, you're doing all kinds of work around it already, and we'll have an impact with it for many, many years to come.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so, Nick, appreciate you being a part of the Books for Guys journey.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're so happy to spotlight you and your work and the book.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: And man, just can't wait to see what all you accomplish with it.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it, Chris.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you again.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's anything I can do to help with the Books for Guys, let's, you know, let me know.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: We'll get get it out there.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love I love the work you all are doing.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it, Nick.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: All right, thanks.