Latest / Coaches Rising / 256 - Joel Monk & Karim Hirani: The Therapy-Coaching Boundary is Transformational

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256 - Joel Monk & Karim Hirani: The Therapy-Coaching Boundary is Transformational · Coaches Rising

• 0:01
  [UNKNOWN]: Hey Karim, good to be with you.
• 0:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we are recording this because this topic has been something that's been inspiring us and troubling us.
• 0:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: the growingers for some time and we felt ready to share some of our thoughts on this boundary between coaching and therapy.
• 0:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's often a question that comes up in our trainings and we like to go deeper with our clients and that inevitably and in our trainings too and that inevitably brings up the question from people sometimes at
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: This feels a bit like therapy.
• 1:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Where is the boundary between coaching and therapy?
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to unpack this question and what it brings up for us from many different perspectives today.
• 1:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, first of all, how does that sound to Ukraine?
• 1:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it sounds really exciting and I think, you know, just to add to the importance of why, I think, because coaching is such an evolving profession, you know, started in, well,
• 1:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know it's a performance coaching and then it's evolved where it includes the psychology of the human being and then the being of the human being.
• 1:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: So as that's evolved how we meet on clients and the boundaries we hold as an important ongoing query.
• 1:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah looking forward to our dialogue today.
• 1:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think you actually open up like one important place to begin, which is the broader picture.
• 2:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And why I think this is becoming a louder question.
• 2:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: I certainly through interviewing hundreds of different people on the podcast now have started to notice
• 2:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: moving from, you know, purely coaching into the centre ground where they're working with the whole of their client.
• 2:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've actually also noticed there are therapeutic approaches which moved to this centre ground as well and actually for example, I just did one with Laurence Heller and
• 2:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: you know, I'm therapy holds the aliveness and the flourishing of the client as central to their work.
• 2:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not pathological and that's what they're working within the present moment.
• 2:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I'm sharing this because I think they are responding to our times and if we look at our
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: we're not in business as usual, and that many of the institutions and ideas that we held, we're born inside of modernity are up for question.
• 3:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: For example, growth or costs, you know,
• 3:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: that's having an impact on the people we work with our clients.
• 3:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're coming into our sessions now in a different way, in a different state, with different concerns and questions, then perhaps they might have had five, 10 years ago.
• 3:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, because we're all living inside of these, this liminal space, these polychrysis that we face.
• 3:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And B, alongside of that, it means that some of these fixed ideas and notions about what we held were to be true are also a question.
• 4:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what I mean by that is this boundary between coaching and therapy is also becoming
• 4:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: more fluid and in some sense this is the idea I would like to share is that we might have before a scene as a kind of fixed boundary in some way but actually I think it's more appropriate to see it as a transformational boundary.
• 4:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: One that actually is a living question and living inquiry and that it invites us into our own development.
• 4:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: and there's lots we can say about this, but if we start to see it as a transformational boundary, I think that is more ethical, actually it invites you into a deeper level of practice and ethics.
• 4:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: than if we held it as a fixed boundary that actually is being defined by a body outside of us, you know, some kind of governing body.
• 5:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: They determine what it is, and then I follow those rules.
• 5:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's very different to it.
• 5:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was internalizing that boundary as something living that we're actually exploring inside of it.
• 5:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I can share some more about that,
• 5:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what comes up.
• 5:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've reminded me of some research that's helpful this year on that point, Joey, there's some research asking some coaches and some theorists about what is that boundary and no group could align on that.
• 5:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the conclusions from that research was it's a dynamic contracting that happens based on various factors of capacity and what the client contract is, etc.
• 5:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what, you know, there are visual statements of boundary even when you look between the lines, they're not fixed in themselves.
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, just a very simple example
• 6:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, even this is Bandria, and the ICF around that, you know, we won't bring in our models thoughts teaching.
• 6:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, in many trainings, I've seen the introduction of things like the critic or the saboteur or even like perceptual positions.
• 6:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So,
• 6:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to kind of respect these bodies because they keep the profession in some kind of consistency and shared fashionism and love the same time even within them that there's a lot of dynamicism in the boundary itself, again, depending on what you're trained in and capable of
• 6:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: hoping today we kind of explore what does that mean?
• 6:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love the point you make about the ethical dimension of it because it starts to feel like an important part of it when we're in service to our clients and what's the view of this transformational boundary and how to relive it then that's what's interesting for me.
• 7:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think what's important is
• 7:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he goes back to, when I talked about the times we find ourselves in, and in some ways we're in a collective right of passage.
• 7:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a deeper, transformational passage than
• 7:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: what we've been going through and you know personally we know that when we're going through these passages it can bring up all kinds of experiences you know all kinds of emotions it touches as deeply and
• 7:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I feel coaches are being invited to evolve in our times and actually even if we weren't going through this collective right of passage, I still feel like, you know, if you're working with an individual going through any deeper transformation or journey, then it's going to bring up aspects of them and touch parts of them that are deeply emotional, have some connection to their
• 8:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It may include even trauma they've encountered and so if we want to meet the whole of their client, then I think we need to be equipped for that and to be prepared for that.
• 8:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's my, and it's a bias, you know, I know not all coaches feel that way, but
• 8:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel that in any deeper transformation or shift, you're going to encounter some of the parts that have formed hurts the conditioning that protected the client and has an intelligence to it.
• 9:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And
• 9:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: that actually it's the meeting of that that actually unwinds that learning through love and presence allows it to integrate the liberates the client into their next phase of growth, you know, and that can look like therapeutic work, you know.
• 9:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the difference for me is
• 9:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: As a coach, I'm not automatically going back into my clients' past for the sake of it.
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even saying a lot of therapists that are doing that.
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm working always in the present moment with what's arising in relationship to what they want most in their lives.
• 9:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I wanted to name that here because I think it puts it's one context for why I think we're
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 9:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 9:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And just staying in the space of context, just to bring in what, you know, what I've been noticing in the context of coaching is over time, you know, more or more clients, so working in an organization where we do a lot of coaching.
• 10:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: And just this trend of certainly at exactly level.
• 10:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: lead is asking for coaches who've got experience working with some of those deeper patterns.
• 10:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I was imagine there's like 20 or 30 years of coaching and development work gone into organisation society and you know, we're now going beneath this surface of those self improvement fixes and the recognition that actually the self improvement approach just ends us in this cycle of continual improvement
• 10:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: feeling satisfying, it's always the next thing.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that the other context and it for me is the questioning of this whole capitalist view, you know, is it really getting us where we want to go?
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And again, this kind of self-improvement, infinite growth, is actually getting us more in difficulty.
• 11:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so right, entities,
• 11:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, culturally and individually shifting and requiring a different way of coaching that isn't the, we're going to get you from a to be, but how do I meet you at the level of identity, at the level of shift that you're going through?
• 11:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And for that, it's not about self-improvement coaching, it's more about meeting and meeting the unfolding of the human being in this moment now.
• 11:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: What shows up in the moment in that unfolding isn't a set of models and tools that we need to apply, instead of rules, it's unfolding with what the human beings releasing, letting go of shifting into opening up to.
• 11:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there suddenly,
• 11:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: saying no, you can't talk about that here, and it's got to be over there, suddenly you miss your opportunity, but presenting, and this present moment relationship with the client.
• 11:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think there's a shift in the coaching approaches that I'm seeing as well, you know, when we work with people like Steve March with, um,
• 12:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: with Kim Barter with Peter Hawkins, you know, there's a radical shift of, what are we doing in this moment with this client and therefore, what does that mean for boundaries and then transformational boundaries start to make more sense and we'll dig into that I know in a moment, but yeah, that's why the context of
• 12:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: change and what we're meeting and then the disruptions that you mentioned that people are facing, you know, the self improvement paradigm is what got us there.
• 12:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we need something different and therefore the coaching that meets the client or the individual in their context with what shows up is pretty important as well.
• 12:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that includes the range.
• 12:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think this is important and just to flesh out a little bit more for those listening who aren't aware of that distinction and you mentioned Steve March, you know, this self-improvement paradigm which is very ubiquitous around us, you know, and it's yes, we can improve in certain things in our lives, you know, like learning a language, but when it becomes
• 13:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: oriented to our inner world, it can often perpetuate the sense of lack that we feel.
• 13:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, the self-improvement paradigm is saying like, subtly, where you are now isn't okay, you know, it's not enough.
• 13:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: You should be over there, you know, in this imagined place in the future, and once you're there, then you'll feel enough.
• 13:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, people then take on all kinds of strategies
• 13:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: lead to that sense of feeling enough sense of satisfaction, so this unfolding paradigm, and I think this is where it really connects back to our topic now of the coaching therapy divide, which is the self-impholding paradigm is really inviting us to become connoisseurs at the present moment.
• 14:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: of meeting, helping our clients get into ever greater contact with themselves in relationship to the topic.
• 14:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: In a sense, you know, letting their experience be the way it is.
• 14:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we take our hands off, trying to improve,
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: our experience.
• 14:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And as we do, we're able to include what's here in a way that it begins to integrate and unfold.
• 14:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how our clients begin to grow.
• 14:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very different paradigm.
• 14:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: it actually is a much more effective paradigm and but that and this is where it can really connects this invites us into our own development, our own maturity as coaches massively and I think this is something we've not named enough yet which is key to this coaching therapy boundary which is um
• 15:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's helpful for beginners to have that boundary articulated by something on the outside, like a governing body, because they're just learning, you know?
• 15:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, you don't want to do more harm.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, you've got to learn the kind of the territory, but then it becomes quite limiting in a sense.
• 15:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, it takes a great level of maturity.
• 15:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: to meet another person and to hold space for them, hold space for them to be there as they are in this unfolding paradigm.
• 15:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lifelong path of doing our own inner work as a coach.
• 15:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is, I think, ethically, because Ethics is an important part of this whole exploration.
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't spoken to this, but what we're not saying, cream is like, hey, you know, whatever like there is no boundary between coaching and therapy, coaches can just do whatever the hell they want, just wait in, you know, that's not it either.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're saying it, but we're saying it's about presence is the primary guide rather than re-affired concepts.
• 16:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: notions of where boundaries are which actually disconnect you from the present moment with your client and can actually that they can actually be more harmful.
• 16:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So cultivating our capacity to be to be present with our clients, to be attuned and that is what is guiding
• 16:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: the coaching that we do.
• 16:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are deeply attuned to the client and what's arising in their nervous system.
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we can start to sense when they might feel more frozen, and might be activated in their nervous system.
• 16:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we have skills to help them with that.
• 17:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And presence,
• 17:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: also allows us to recognize when we reach our own boundaries.
• 17:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is where I think it's important too.
• 17:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, we're not saying there's no boundary.
• 17:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're saying, you will feel as a coach when you hit your own boundary around certain topics.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I know that feeling in myself.
• 17:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like when I lose presence with a client is one of them.
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: getting knocked out of my my spacious presence with a client.
• 17:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think one more thing I'd weave in, therefore, what is the, I'll tee this up before answering it?
• 17:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is the archetype or the image that we are proposing?
• 17:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, is it something that transcends and includes coaching and therapy?
• 17:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do we need a new word or not?
• 17:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a great question.
• 18:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think just building on that job because there are so many different meanings of the word coach now as well.
• 18:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, from, I've seen it for hamburger, flippers.
• 18:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: All the way through right now, I mean, even the coaching world itself is above and because you see people doing trauma coaching and grief coaching, but even with something like developmental coaching,
• 18:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it is going deeply inside you're looking at a construction of who you are, you know, which happens in the first six, seven years of life.
• 18:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're coming in for development coaching, then opening up this space to include what are those key moments of development and what's from finished in your development or emerging in your development means we need to allow that space for who the person is as they show up in this moment fully.
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so even the world of coaching is kind of starting to stretch itself and stretch the boundaries.
• 18:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I like the idea of what's the new word that we would use because it's also getting misunderstood in the ways that the word coaching obviously in the world of AI and where you get AI coaches.
• 19:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So some of the misuse of that word.
• 19:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think, you know, it is a great question to go, well, what are we?
• 19:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: going to refer to this as that doesn't now have the mixed and confused meaning around that.
• 19:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know you've got some thoughts around that, Joel.
• 19:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, curious.
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're right with that word coaching, the future of coaching.
• 19:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think two thoughts come into mind like one is,
• 19:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we've been playing with this kind of phrase transformational practitioner, which is just not very sexy, but it, you know, it's like a placeholder.
• 19:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I sometimes have kind of,
• 19:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: a lot about wealth, just that kind of healing therapy and then coaching, guiding, and then is there a kind of transcendent, and transcendent include kind of third point, which is the
• 20:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a vocative for me because it captures this unfolding paradigm in which does feel more alchemical where there is a sense of including more and more and as
• 20:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: as we help our clients include more and become more in touch with their experience, then there is a kind of intelligence that comes online, you know, like a dynamic intelligence which guides the process.
• 20:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, but you know, hey, that would alchemy, it's kind of a maybe a bit, our alchemy, it's a bit nation.
• 20:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: So,
• 20:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, actually where I go is like this is a living conversation we don't know yet, but actually it probably is more interesting for people to think about what that might be for them.
• 21:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, what would be the word that would be that third way that transcends and includes for them, if they feel cold,
• 21:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: in this direction, because that's actually really an important point here is that, again, it kind of comes back to being a beginner coach and an intermediate and a master coach, it's like in the beginning, it's useful to be told where the boundaries are, what this is, what that is, what of the competencies, you know, you're doing quality trainings,
• 21:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: and you're taking on those trainings, but you actually become socialised by those trainings in some way, you know, that, and that's not a bad thing, you know, it's part of your development, but it's like, you, as a coach, you are those trainings, yeah?
• 21:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, and then at some point, you actually are being invited to determine what is my philosophy of transformation?
• 22:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: you need a certain level of experience to be able to do that.
• 22:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that's a very powerful moment because I feel you become much more potent at that point where you're developing your own protocol so to speak.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think beyond that, there's a kind of in-sol and fused move where it's
• 22:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: soul, archetype that is me at my best in my transformational work, and that inquiry is more like, you know, and I think it's inviting life to reveal to oneself what that is, and so I share that because I think that is a much more powerful way of
• 22:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: of moving through this journey towards mastery and ethics, you know, it's a highly, it's a highly maturing ethical move to do so.
• 22:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I've loved that kind of flow of evolution already resonates with me.
• 23:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as you practice this work, you do your own work, you know, you start to find more and more about who you are, what you're called to be, and then
• 23:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, having the grounding in the, you know, cool principles, especially when you're starting out and knowing where the lines are, where your own lines are, sometimes those external boundaries can support you with that bolster you're learning.
• 23:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: But a couple of things you've named that, I just want to kind of connect in with, because when I look at that range, you know, the development coaching to, you know, trauma coaching all the way to, maybe skills, performance, only focus.
• 23:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what I do see myself,
• 23:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: kind of learning from the ones who are taking the edges is the importance of what you said around both self-practice, you know, so if I've done my own work, you know, so if I go to, there's a grief coaching, I saw Joel, that's ICF, the credited as well, call competencies, which is interesting.
• 24:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: But when I go to those trainings, the emphasis is
• 24:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: presence, you know, so it's almost the qualities of this transformation or practitioner, and I can hold this space, I can meet what's here, and that's my path.
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know myself, you know, I know some important fundamentals about trauma.
• 24:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: and neuro diversity, especially in today's world, where that's becoming more and more aware of that.
• 24:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that capacity to relate to another human being and the field that's present, that's also contributing to how we're showing up right now and what's emerging in us.
• 24:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think those capacities, I see coming more and more in this kind of transformational practitioner space.
• 24:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then the better on ethics, you know, there's more rigour in the ethics and in this space because you have to know your limits, your boundaries, your development edge, and be ethical in what you say yes to or not, no to.
• 25:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we've talked about these full sees, Joel, only as I'll share them now because I think they're ethical inquiries.
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so when we're working with
• 25:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: As you're saying, we're not saying there's no ethics and everything's allowed and which is me.
• 25:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's four sees that you always recommend reflecting on.
• 25:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: So one of them is, well, what's the contract here?
• 25:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if you've got a client who's on, you know, I want to prove my presentation skills and some grief comes up.
• 25:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're not saying, well, and you have to force working with the grief.
• 25:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's what's the agreement here, and what's the context of the coaching, what's included in our agreement, and that can be dynamic too.
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if something comes up, you can re-contract.
• 25:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think what's my capacity, which is to your point, you know, can I hold this space?
• 25:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Can I meet what's here and if not, what's been called forth to develop maybe through supervision or to say no to, you know, that's not something that I'm capable of meeting right now, maybe there is a therapist or a laboratory or a professional, that might need some, that might have some more of the skill, the capability.
• 26:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think the third sea, so this contract capacity, the capability, you know, and we're trained on my skilled and being transparent about, this is what I can work with and this is what I can and then finally, the continuous inquiry and development, you know, the final sea.
• 26:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is ongoing supervision, ethical inquiry and also seeing our clients as
• 26:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: invitations for our own development because change is not something we do to someone else.
• 26:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a process that happens when we meet and you know what's been called fourth what's the opportunity that our clients are bringing us into.
• 26:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think for me, the Transfacial Practitioner is seeing this moment as a mutual change process and are we in
• 27:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Our edges get caused by our clients, you know, it's often been the case that, you know, you've got the perfect teacher in front of you and they're testing your edge.
• 27:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, if I'm myself going to supervision and going right, I need help and sometimes I've come back saying, I can't continue right now because you need someone with that capacity or capability.
• 27:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been able to meet the client in a different way that's been in service to their development and growth.
• 27:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's ongoing inquiry.
• 27:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think those four seas add a certain quality of rigour.
• 27:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you are, say, I see F, I mean, you know, boo.
• 27:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: trained and present as a nice CF train coach that would be included in there so you know what is my contract with my professional body that I'm into include here and that times you might say hey this particular contract is about meeting what's here right now and and that's that means I'm going to be particularly rigorous in the way that I approach each moment of the relationship.
• 28:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, beautiful.
• 28:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's helpful.
• 28:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: It provides a kind of basis for which I think we can kind of just a little assessment, you know, where am I paying more attention there?
• 28:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Where am I being invited to be a little bit more rigorous around this?
• 28:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it makes me think about maybe what recommendations
• 28:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, these will be recommendations that make to myself as well.
• 28:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I think, for me, what comes up is, and I think you've just spoken into this, but it's worth highlighting again.
• 29:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, so, when I feel like either I'm in a training, and you know, certainly I feel
• 29:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: some emotion around what's being taught here while is this therapeutic to also see that as an invitation for inquiry like what what's arising in me in that moment now it may be that it's like it just doesn't fit you know I'm like I I noticed for me what's being taught here doesn't fit that's fine
• 29:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it also could be an invitation into notes in what parts of me have been activated, what patterns in me are activated, that may be afraid of going in certain directions.
• 29:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's in the best supervision groups I've been in.
• 29:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the work you do.
• 29:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: You look at where are the challenges I have around my coaching practice with my clients, with the work I do, and that is the fuel for your deepening.
• 30:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: as a practitioner.
• 30:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that would be one recommendation I would take.
• 30:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, beautiful.
• 30:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think another recommendation that that comes to my mind is just writing down, like this is a really practical job.
• 30:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: But writing down, you know, with regards to the boundary question, what are your boundaries that you're holding?
• 30:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because there were many, you know, coaching is
• 30:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, deep promotions for that therapy and coaching is more positive, you know, so if you go into the positive psychology world, and even within them, some people will say how to focus on the positive others.
• 30:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, coaching is more practical and or intended around life, you know, whereas you'll, you know, and what I would do is just look at the truths around those, like, is it really true that your coaching is always future focused?
• 30:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what if someone
• 30:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, four weeks ago had a difficult scenario that they faced that they wanted to explore.
• 31:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what if that difficult situation was 10 years ago, would you say no?
• 31:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so just a question, you know, all those, you know, hold up and make those boundaries conscious and then start to look at.
• 31:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, even with deep promotions, you know, would you allow a little bit of sadness if some bad news happened at work with, you know, your project might hitting the timeline that you're expecting, what if it was a deeper sadness around a lot of someone in your isolation?
• 31:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's here now, or as you all say,
• 31:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're like something that has happened a pattern that's got conditioned from the past that has some emotion around it, which is why you've created a particular strategy with a part.
• 31:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And as you loosen the hold of that part, some of the emotion is my surface in this moment and in the process of either releasing that part or transforming that part.
• 31:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, just to start to notice where are these assumptions and how you hold in them, what do you say no to is that okay, and start becoming more conscious about those boundaries, because certainly most therapists and coaches I've spoken to could define those before you even start to question them as well.
• 32:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's kind of recommendations for me.
• 32:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Another one that comes to mind, and I think this is good to do, even if you're not this topic around coaching therapy, isn't a live feed, but it would be, who am I as a coach?
• 32:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: In a way, it's a little bit connected to what you're just talking about, but who am I as a coach?
• 32:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what is my cosmology of change?
• 32:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are the, what's the thing that I'm most excited about as a coach, you know, most passionate about most interested in, to begin to write about that, think about that and that will strengthen your authorship.
• 32:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: as a coach.
• 33:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it will bring more ethics and more clarity to the work that you can do, the type of container you want to hold.
• 33:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think inside of that inquiry,
• 33:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can start to weave in what's my developmental edge as a coach, you know, where are other places where I hit that edge, where I struggle a little bit where, you know, there's kind of blind spots and where am I being invited to grow?
• 33:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: That I think this is being inside of the kind of living
• 33:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: exploration of coaching as a vocation, not just a profession and I think that we'll in live in the work we do and I think developmental edges with coaches is a big topic.
• 33:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can feel myself wanting to go in that direction but I'll I'll leave it for there.
• 33:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: What about you, any others?
• 33:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's like a dance between us because the
• 34:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, opening up the boundary question and it kind of builds on what you've just said, which is from that place to who am I as a coach, you know, where are my limits right now?
• 34:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: To really have an honest conversation, I'd even do this with this supervisor or someone that
• 34:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: is experienced in this, but you know, where are my limits as well as my development edges, you know, what can I mean, what I can't mean and what's my development edge, which is effectively, you know, where is that next place I'm going to open up to and welcome into my world and therefore welcome.
• 34:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: into my coaching relationships as well.
• 34:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think, yeah, when you talk about these transmission boundaries, dynamic boundaries for me, this is starting to become aware in this moment where am I?
• 34:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: What are my limits?
• 34:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just as an example, I had a plan that did open up to some trauma and that's not a skill I have.
• 34:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: and doing the trauma work, you know, when I know that, so at that moment, I have a way to respond and say, hey, this is not my capacity right now, it was a deeper, apathy type trauma, which is not where my experience lies.
• 35:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: So to start to look at that and create your own transformational boundary awareness, I would say, and what for me is in that transformational boundary space is not, it's your capacity, it's also the client's capacity, it's what you're in up in the room.
• 35:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: So to have an awareness of ours, it's very important.
• 35:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then as you say, we can look at our edges and we want to grow into as well to be able to meet more.
• 35:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think, just building on what you said referrals, having someone you can refer to, and some level, you know, people maybe even more than one person having, kind of practicing or developing how you refer
• 36:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: people because that's a conversation that wants to be done with love and respect, you know, kind of, yeah, we don't want to kind of have people feel rejected in that referral conversation.
• 36:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Trauma being trauma informed.
• 36:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think particularly if you feel passionate about
• 36:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: this third space that includes therapy and coaching, some level of like deeper, more rigorous,
• 36:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: training could be very useful as well.
• 36:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's something I'm really considering doing myself and, you know, I'm not saying that, I'm just, this is just for me personally, but it's, you know, I think it's something you said earlier that it's quite common
• 37:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: for people to feel activated, you know, to feel at some level of nervous system activation, freeze, coming into conversations these days.
• 37:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, if you just ignore that and try and coach over the top of it.
• 37:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: That, you know, I think there's some use to that potentially, but it's like, wow, if we can just recognize that and be able to support people with that to whatever degree, I think that's a great capacity to have.
• 37:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe as we, I don't know if we're moving towards the end of this exploration for now, but, um,
• 37:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I feel like I want to just speak into, I don't loop back a little bit around the times we find ourselves in.
• 37:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, what touches me in this moment is, I feel called to be in service in our times, you know, to be a beacon of light in our times.
• 37:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And these are remarkable times.
• 38:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel that that is a voking in me.
• 38:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: this deep inquiry and journey into this space, this transformational practitioner space.
• 38:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I see a growing number of people, you know, I'm being a lot of coaches, and you would be amazed by how many coaches are thinking in the same way, you know?
• 38:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe we're preaching to the convert it already here, but it's more often that I meet coaches who are
• 38:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, already thinking quite deeply about some of the things we've talked about today.
• 38:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think if I think about our times, you know, one of the invitations feels like
• 38:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: to help as meat, the panning we've inherited, that has this intelligence inside of it, that kept us, you know, in belonging and in safety in connection, but to help as meat that in order to be able to foster a deeper level of connectedness and collaboration,
• 39:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: on the planet.
• 39:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that there's great excitement and ensalment that can arise if we feel cold into what my friend calls mixed mystical arts, you know, this trans paredomatic practice.
• 39:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: where we have a kind of humility, you know, that no one view has all the answers.
• 39:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Each view is partial, but that great creativity and generativity arises when we can hold different paradigms together and that we can be the way of being that can hold those different paradigms and pick up the one that feels most appropriate in each moment.
• 39:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's something I want to just tap into as we kind of move towards a close, yeah, yeah, that's beautiful.
• 40:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that for me, just to connect in with what feels right to share is, I notice this...
• 40:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I love my capacity to meet what's here in me and the world, you know, that holds a wider space for welcoming, where the, you know, where the coaches and then what we create becomes something quite different.
• 40:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that for me, there's something about the capacity to be present with what's here
• 40:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: to the intelligence, rather than to those patterns and conditionings that can drive, and as something powerful happens there.
• 40:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: And for me, that's the shift I think is also a parallel.
• 40:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: in the world, like we're using that kind of patterning of capitalism or the self-improvement paradigm, it's kind of taking us more and more away from ourselves, and ultimately I think if I look all of those big things, the planet.
• 41:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: AI workplace dissatisfaction, they're all about loss of connection, loss of connection to Earth, loss of connection to each other, to ourselves, to our organizations.
• 41:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so for me, at the heart of all of this is connecting back to ourselves as we are in this moment with another in relationship.
• 41:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: and something magical happens when those veils of disconnection, you know, call it part, call it conditioning, call it patterns.
• 41:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: As we, as we work to decide into fire or heal or release, there's more potent potential in this moment.
• 41:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And the more we can connect with that, more we can offer our clients to service that's very deeply transformational.
• 42:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I loved you end with this.
• 42:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think you just tried to say what I was saying much more clearly.
• 42:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know, we need an evolution in the leadership, in the consciousness, in the way we collaborate right now.
• 42:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to say that with it in a blaming way, you know.
• 42:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not cutting it, and so that's the kind of work we can do as coaches is to support others on this journey.
• 42:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, yeah, be of service to the evolution of consciousness in our time.
• 42:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I'm just, I feel like we're bouncing off each other, Joel and this ending, but I'm just trusting Matt.
• 42:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think if I tie back to the purpose of our conversation at this end, because from this place,
• 42:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: then putting these lines of, we won't do those emotions or we won't do those types of intervention, they don't make sense anymore.
• 43:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think what makes sense is what's arising in the moment, would be I think for the choir we've talked about and welcome what's here because that becomes the potent fodder for our chemical change and you know so whilst the ethics are important
• 43:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: because we need to make sure we're holding it with integrity.
• 43:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's something that says, when we allow what's here to be fully present, it has.
• 43:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: potent intelligence and transformational potential.
• 43:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I think the future practitioner.
• 43:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, at least as far as I can tell, you know, when I look at you Joel as well and you working your region, you're talking about that next place you will not evolve into.
• 43:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what future practitioner is.
• 43:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not I am a coach that I have got the tip list.
• 43:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's I'm in my own evolution as well.
• 43:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's a lovely conclusion for us to come into.
• 43:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, Karim.
• 43:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much and, uh, yeah, happy to share this with our community, so.
• 44:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, beautiful.