Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 416 - The Ghosts Of JMWAVE

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 416 - The Ghosts Of JMWAVE · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to see you in the future!
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Late afternoon heat down in Dealey Plaza The young man
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: holds a long paper sack Set its curtain rods for
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: the window frame While the heavy Sedans pull back Up
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: on the sixth floor of the book depository The truth
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: gets tucked away Cuban exiles down in the Keys Waiting
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: for their pay Welcome to the Lone Gun Man podcast
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: tonight Where the official line ain't right. Triple B and
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Joe reading line by line. Through the black ink on
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: the page. Hooking past the grassy knoll. Oswald walking down
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: the Dallas street, handcuffed to a detective sleeve. Jack Ruby
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: steps from the crowded press.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: With a trick of a suit jacket sleeve.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Redacted documents stacked on the desk, thick black lines on
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: every name. They call it an open and shut case
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: while they play the symphony.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Was it a.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Single shot from behind? Or a rifle behind the fence?
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Take a ride with Triple B and Joby. Nothing here
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: makes any sense.
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: Welcome to the.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Lone Gunman Podcast.
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: What's up, everybody? Welcome in. Welcome in. It's Friday night.
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: It's the Lone Gummer Podcast. It's your boy. It's Joe B.
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: Freshly shorn.
• 2:35
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: Looking dapper.
• 2:39
  Speaker 5: Yes. Rob Colt said I look like Bernardo de Torres,
• 2:42
  Speaker 5: which I wasn't sure if it's a compliment or not,
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: but I'll take it.
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: And I told him it wasn't. And he's still here.
• 2:53
  Speaker 5: I'm still taking it. You got to eat the W's
• 2:58
  Speaker 5: where you can.
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: Oh, boy.
• 3:03
  Speaker 5: How are you, sir?
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: Doing fantastic. Fantastic. It is Friday night. Welcome in, everybody.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: And we're going to hop straight into it. So tonight
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: on the show, we're going to be talking about the
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: ghosts of J.M. Wave. And a little bit about J.M.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: Wave itself.
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: J.M.
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: Wave was primarily up and running through, like, probably, what, 1960,
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: 61 through 69?
• 3:39
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: The main years were, like, 62, 63, like.
• 3:41
  Speaker 5: Peak operation, operational, but... I believe they started a little earlier.
• 3:55
  Speaker 5: 1962 to.
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: Oh, no, that's Shackley.
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: 60s.
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: Assume I have it right, Joe. 61 to 69. 61
• 4:00
  Speaker 5: to 68, yes. Allegedly. Allegedly. Located on....
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: The campus, the south campus of the University of Miami
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: in the Richmond Heights neighborhood, somewhere you probably wouldn't expect
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: to find a CIA station, and probably the largest one
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: in the world outside of Langley at the time, a
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: very nondescript building known as building number 25, Joe, Yeah.
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: On campus.
• 4:54
  Speaker 5: In a wooded area, I believe. Yeah.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: It housed probably anywhere from three to 400, not housed,
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: I should say, but three to 400 people were working
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: out of it.
• 5:09
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: Um, and not necessarily that building in particular at the time,
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: the CIA had, uh, let's just say purchased a numerous
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: amounts of businesses around South Miami at the time, anywhere
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: from television repair shops to laundry mats, uh, detective agencies,
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: you name it. They had their little tendrils, uh, out.
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: Cause you know, you can't have three or 400 people
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: showing up to work every day. It's some weird building on,
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: on a college campus and nobody not notice. Um, So
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: a lot of people were coming and going at different
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: times based on their needing to be there. But if
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: they weren't there right there, they were physically close by,
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: just a phone call away, say, get your ass here,
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: and they could get there. Dude, sweet.
• 6:06
  Speaker 5: Right. Yes, they operated through a bunch of front companies.
• 6:10
  Speaker 5: I believe the first one was Zenith Technical Enterprises Incorporated,
• 6:16
  Speaker 5: later renamed Melmar Corporation. After it's exposure. Yeah. Yeah.
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: And again.
• 6:25
  Speaker 5: I remember.
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: Being on a college campus. Many moons ago. And.
• 6:35
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: There may have been like. I don't know. One or
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: two buildings. That were kind of weird. That you didn't
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: really know what happened inside of them.
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: Southwest.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: You know, and they weren't necessarily dorms or classrooms, and
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: you're just like, hmm, wonder what goes on in there.
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: I don't know. You know, especially if it's kind of,
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: kind of at the edges of the campus, you know.
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: But yeah, as Joe mentioned, it was officially the Zenith
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: Technical Enterprises Research Center, whatever that means. They did have
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: chain link fences up around this place and armed guards.
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: So if, you know, a young Joe Borrelli came sniffing
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: around there to get drunk or something, they would say, shoo,
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: why don't you go on and get out of here, boy?
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: I think they'd do worse to me than that. Oh.
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: So it had a budget of an annual budget of
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: tens of millions of dollars. This should tell you how
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: important this station was to the CIA. Very important.
• 8:02
  Speaker 5: Yes, the number I read was 50 million, which would
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: have been 500 million annually, but I can't confirm that,
• 8:10
  Speaker 5: but that's what I read.
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you're about right. I mean, they commanded
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: hundreds of full-time case officers and thousands, managed thousands of
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: Cuban exile assets. So, again, they were busy. And it
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: wasn't just because of Cuba that they were there. They're
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: in a very strategic place to deal somewhat quickly with
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: South American issues, Caribbean issues. They could get to the
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: Atlantic easy.
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: Right. When you think about the proximity to those areas
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: and what they were kind of tasked to do, it
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: makes sense that they would be in South Florida, right?
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: It's a very strategic spot for them, especially after the
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: Bay of Pigs invasion. So after that fiasco, The United
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: States put together Operation Mongoose that we talked about here
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: as well. And it kind of operated out of JM
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: Wave as well. You know, you have a bunch of
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: different things going on at JM Wave. You have paramilitary officers, okay?
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: That means folks who are attached to the CIA from
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: the military, kind of like Lansdale. People like that. You
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: have intelligence handlers, and we'll get to those. And a
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: shit ton of anti-communist, anti-Castro Cuban exiles. They were being
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: trained in assassinations, demolition, infiltrations, exfiltrations, propaganda, and intelligence gathering
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: all out of Jam Wave in South Miami. So it
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: was a very interesting place. And you hear it talked
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: about a lot. Um, and it, it's kind of a throwaway,
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: you know, jam wave, this jam wave that. So I
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: figured it'd be a good idea if we kind of
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: broke it down and you're going to hear a lot
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: of names thrown at you tonight. Um, and again, when
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: it comes to the JFK assassination directly, uh, You know,
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: we're going to talk about some people that you can't
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: really put directly into the JFK assassination or having ties
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: with it. But we are going to talk about several
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: of the key figures throughout the time and of the essence,
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: you know, from the early 60s. Who were at Jam Wave?
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: Who were the movers and shakers? Who were the big
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: swinging dicks making things happen? and exactly what the hell
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: was going on down there. So we're going to try
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: to lay it out for you and break it down
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: for you. So, Joe, start us off, please, sir.
• 11:28
  Speaker 5: All right. Let me share my screen.
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: Need to whiteboard, huh? Yeah.
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: I switched computers. Shocker. All right. So let's talk about
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: the first BSD, Big Swinging D, that there was at
• 12:09
  Speaker 5: JM Wave, and that would be Theodore, known as Ted Shackley.
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: Excellent!
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, was born in... 1927, his mother was a Polish immigrant.
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: He joined the United States Army in 1945, part of
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: the Allied Occupation Force. After, later returned to Germany as
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: an Army counterintelligence officer and was involved in recruiting Polish agents.
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: And then he was also recruited by the CIA, of course.
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: In 1953, he was working for William Harvey. at the
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: CIA Berlin station, which is interesting. Shackley, whose nickname was, quote,
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: the blonde ghost because he hated to be photographed, became
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: involved in CIA's black operations. I'm reading from Spartacus here,
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: Rob's favorite site. The involved.
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: So just know it's probably all out of date and false.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: But go ahead.
• 13:09
  Speaker 5: Uh, So, after the Bay of Pigs disaster, JFK created
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: a committee, the SGA, charged with overthrowing Castro's government. It
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: was chaired by RFK and included John McCone, McGeorge Bundy,
• 13:27
  Speaker 5: and a bunch of other politicians. So, in early 1962,
• 13:32
  Speaker 5: Harvey brought... I'm sorry? What? In early... Oh, in early 1962,
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: Harvey brought Ted Shackley into the project as deputy chief
• 13:44
  Speaker 5: of Jam Wave, and in April 1962, Shackley was involved
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: in delivering supplies to Johnny Roselli as part of a
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: plan to assassinate Fidel Castro. Of course, that was not successful.
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: Later that year, he became head of the station, so
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: that would be 1962. In doing so, he gained control
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: over Operation 40, or what some now called Shackley's secret team.
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: Shackley was also responsible for gathering intelligence and recruiting spies
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: in Cuba. Most of the anti-Castro Cubans that the CIA
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: managed to infiltrate into Cuba were captured and either imprisoned
• 14:21
  Speaker 5: or executed. So he obviously was involved in Operation 40
• 14:29
  Speaker 5: with Carl Jenkins, who I think we might touch on later.
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: And man, this guy, I mean... I'm looking at his
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: resume here, Rob. Yeah. And not only JM Wave, and
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: I feel like he was almost brought in to, like,
• 14:53
  Speaker 5: fix up things after the Bay of Pigs, because this
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: guy had an illustrious career. I mean, he was in Vietnam, Laos,
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: the Phoenix program. He was involved... uh, he was later
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: the chief of the Western hemisphere division of the CIA, uh,
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: and was involved in the overthrow of, uh, Chile. Then
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: he was an associate deputy director for operations, uh, for
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: the CIA under George W. Bush.
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: It was, it was Bush.
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: We figured it out.
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: Bush was behind everything.
• 15:32
  Speaker 5: Then he was involved in a ring Contra, um, Man,
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: a lot.
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: Of these motherfuckers were. That surprised me.
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: That they were active and in the, both in the
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: shit up into the 80s.
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah. It's crazy because you don't last that long unless
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: you're trusted, right?
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.
• 15:53
  Speaker 5: Bizarre. Um, and I didn't realize how long his, uh,
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: his tenure was. I believe it was 28 years. And, uh,
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: He had contacts with all of our favorite people from
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: Jim Wave, whether it's Morales or anyone you could think of. Oh, yeah.
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: So this guy had a lot of sway, and I
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: think he was very trusted, and I believe they said
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: he was one of the most decorated officers in CIA history.
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: So very interesting dude, not a dude that's talked about
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: a lot, Now, I don't think, to your point that
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: you said earlier, that he was like... He was involved
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: in operations, but I think other people were more involved
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: in operations, right? You know, when you're head of station, like,
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: I'm sure you get the memos, but you're not planning, right?
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: That's how I kind of see it. And let me
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: see here. Let me... Go next here. So this is
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: a memo. It's actually an FBI document to the special
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: agent in charge of Miami. This is in the beginning
• 17:14
  Speaker 5: of 1963 in January. And it talks about the Cuban operations.
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: I'm not going to read all this. On 121-63, Theodore Shackley,
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: in charge of CIA covert station Miami, furnished the following
• 17:30
  Speaker 5: information in response to inquiries posed by the Bureau. CIA
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: contemplates no action, re-movement of prisoners. We're talking about getting
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: prisoners from the Bay of Pigs out of Cuba to
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: other areas. Shackley pointed out that freedom of movement of
• 17:45
  Speaker 5: these individuals will be gauged by regulations of the INS.
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: CIA has not arranged for any of the prisoners to
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: leave the U.S. However, he stated it is possible the CRC,
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: Cuban Revolutionary Council, eventually may request specific individuals to go
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: on foreign speaking tours or to carry out other foreign assignments. Translation, propaganda. Yes.
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: CIA has heard, yeah, CIA has heard rumors that some
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: of the prisoners after their arrival in the U.S. have
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: departed for foreign countries. However, at this time, he does
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: not know identities of these persons. So, um, CIA Miami
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: is not in a position to advise the FBI Miami
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: of relocation of Cuban invasion prisoners. So here we go.
• 18:38
  Speaker 5: When we talk about interagency scoffoozery, right? CIA is not
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: telling the FBI much here. CIA Miami in contact with
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: Manuel Artime, Jose Perez San Roman, and Enidio Olivier. Leaders
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: of Brigade 2506. However, Shackley pointed out that their relationship
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: with these individuals is that of sources of info to
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: keep abreast of the mood and desires of the Brigade.
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: That they are not what Shackley termed controlled agents. Translation...
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: They're kind of doing their own thing.
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: You're right.
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: Uh... he said it is the plan of CIA to
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: develop some additional sources within the brigade on a selective basis,
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: but that to that date, this has not been done.
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: And again, this is January, uh, 63. Shackley said that
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: any information developed by his agency, reflecting identities of individuals
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: suspected of being Cuban intelligence agents would be furnished promptly
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: to the office, the FBI office. Um, let me move
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: my little window here. Miami is in the process of
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: obtaining a complete list of individuals who arrived on the
• 19:57
  Speaker 5: vessel African pilot, and some will be furnished to the
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: borough promptly.
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: That's a little racist.
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah. But point is, uh, Early 63, Shackley is obviously
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: well immersed in the Cuban exile community, right? Or at
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: least running it, being the BSD. This is a memo,
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: I believe it's a CIA memo, October 6th, 15th, which I...
• 20:31
  Speaker 5: Is that the day Oswald got the job at the TSBD?
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: Day after, yeah. Day after.
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: Anna Pataki... Advised as follows. Who is she again? She
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: was like a CIA agent, right?
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: Probably a honeypot. Who knows?
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: Can he? All right.
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: Yes, Jamie.
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Jamie, Jamie. During a conversation with Redacted, also of
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: special affairs staff, let... Redacted let it slip that the, quote,
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: top echelon, end quote, of the Secret Affairs staff is
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: anxious to remove Ted Shackley from his assignment as chief
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: of the base. According to Ms. Pataki, redacted inferred that
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: certain individuals are setting a trap to catch Shackley.
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: Okay, Joe. Looks like Anna Pataki was a CIA analyst
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: who has been working on something that's redacted. She's something
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: with a Cuban desk.
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: She's definitely a CIA analyst.
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: Whatever that is.
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: Source stated that Shackley was personally selected by Bill Harvey
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: for this assignment. And this may have something to do
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: with the move to force him out. Of course, he
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: was in Rome at the time, but I don't know.
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: It's redacted, so it's hard to tell who wanted him out.
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: This is another document. This is in May of 1964,
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: so now we're jumping a little bit forward. after the assassination,
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: we're talking like mid-war commission, if you will, the current
• 22:35
  Speaker 5: Cuban operational climate and proposed operations for May 64. A
• 22:41
  Speaker 5: 25-minute briefing was provided on Cuban operations by the chief
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: of Miami, Mr. Theodore Shackley. He gave a thorough summary
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: of the policy framework in which programs have been established
• 22:53
  Speaker 5: and provided detail on the techniques used to accomplish these missions.
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: He enumerated successes achieved to date and indicated the types
• 23:04
  Speaker 5: of difficulty encountered. The briefing was.
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: Joe, you know, you've got to think, after the assassination,
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: you know, because of what happened, that there was probably
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: a kind of a freezing, if you will, of operations
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: out of JM Wave, just, you know, until they kind of...
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: figured things out, you know, because that was really.
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: Bad, right?
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: And you don't really want anything else to happen or
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: come out of Cuba or anything that might blow the
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: lid on what we were doing down there because, you know,
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: it was a very tempestuous time. Kennedy had just been killed.
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: So I'm sure that they had their hackles up, you know,
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: and everything. But I think.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: It was just a very weird time for J.M. Wave.
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: 100%.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: You know, they have to try to control thousands of
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: Cuban exiles who desperately want to get at Castro.
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: Right, many of which are divided and kind of working
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: on their own terms.
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: Right, very hard to control. So they had their hands
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: full after the assassination, for sure.
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. The briefing was well received and members expressed the
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: opinion that the session had been extremely useful. The special
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: group approved the proposed exfiltration operations into Cuba during May 1964,
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: which is interesting to me because, of course, LBJ had
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: kind of pivoted over to Vietnam at that point, and
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: like I mentioned, Shackley... ended up going to Laos, which
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: is obviously the bordering country of Vietnam and, and working
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: there for a bit. So.
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: Well, it was the next big frontier, you know, Lansdale
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: ended up going over there. Shackley ended up going over there. Um,
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: a lot of folks ended up going over there. It's
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: the next big theater of war, if you will.
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Westbrook too. Right. Yeah.
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: Um, very, very interesting. You know, I mean, Things kind
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: of quieted down with Cuba, although, you know, there were
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: still things going on. It wasn't as huge a deal
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: as the Far East would become. Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea,
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: things like that.
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: Right. Which would tie us up for years and years
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: and years. And they were running out of drugs. Well....
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: In South America, bro. You've got to move and get
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: some somewhere else.
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: Yes, there are.
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: Then you've got to go to the Middle East and
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: take all their drugs.
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: Yes, there are a lot of allegations of what Shackley
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: was doing over there in Operation Phoenix, which was involved.
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: Next thing you know, we'll be fighting on the moon
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: for those sweet moon mushrooms that will stone you silly.
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: We'll see.
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: Sounds interesting. Let's go to Gordon Campbell.
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: That's a great picture you found there of him.
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: Well, it's the only picture I could find, and I
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: was going to say, I don't even know if this
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: is his exact picture.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: I don't even know if that's him, bro.
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: No, it might not be, but he was kind of
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: like a ghost in his own right. Hold on. Why
• 26:50
  Speaker 5: can't I? Hold on. I'm removing this from screen here
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: because my pointer, my mouse was not working. Gordon Sutherland Campbell,
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: born in 1905. He was a U.S. Army colonel. He
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: was a CIA contract agent who was based in CIA's
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: Miami station, J.M. Wave, according to Bradley Heirs, who we're
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: going to get to next. It was a close associate
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: of Shackley, which, of course, would make sense, being that
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: he's the deputy director. And, you know, there's a rumor here, Rob,
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: that Gordon Campbell was pictured in that RFK. You know
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: that picture of RFK? That, that, that, that, that. of
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: the RFK assassination, but he had died of a heart
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: attack in 1962, pretty much after the big pig.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: That is not George Ioannidis, and that is not Gordon Campbell.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: That is misinformation, sir. Right.
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: That's why I said a rumor. Mr.
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: Blow, you need to stop reading Spartacus.
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: So, you know, I searched. There's not much on Spartacus.
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: There's not much on Spartacus about him, sir.
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: That picture's up there.
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: Well, the picture is up there, but I did a
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: search on Mary Farrell. I couldn't find any documents on
• 28:33
  Speaker 5: the dude. But as we're going to get to Bradley
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: Ayers here, and his letter and that interview with Arbstaff,
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: he does mention him as well, so. Let's get to that,
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: and let me put that back up.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: Trying to remember what his book was called. Oh, and appropriately,
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: The Zenith Secret. A CIA insider exposes the secret war
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: against Cuban to plots that killed the Kennedy brothers. The
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: Zenith Secret.
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: Yes. Interesting. Yeah. It's interesting to me that all these
• 29:25
  Speaker 5: guys wrote books later. I mean, not, you know, of course,
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: 1962 he died, allegedly.
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: Who?
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: Campbell.
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: Oh, Campbell. I was going to tell you my heirs.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: I was like, no, they didn't.
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: No. no, yes, Ayers did write a book. Yes, we're
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: going to get to that. And we're going to get
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: to Bradley Ayers right now. So Bradley Ayers is a
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: very interesting character here. And he was, you know, He
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: was born in Minnesota, 1935, served as a paratrooper in
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: the United States Army, was promoted from private to captain,
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: which is a nice step up. In early 1963, Ayers
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: was selected by the DOD, Department of Defense, for a
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: sensitive undercover assignment with the CIA that involved trying to
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: remove Fidel Castro from power. According to Ayers, he was
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: briefed by the CIA by General Victor Krulak, a personal
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: friend of JFK and a member of the special group.
• 30:35
  Speaker 5: Ayers was based at JM Wave, where he worked with
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: members of the anti-Castro groups, like Alpha 66, and took
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: part in Operation Mongoose. Infanzi claims that Ayers worked closely
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: with Johnny Roselli in attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro. In
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: his book, The War That Never Was, 1976, Ayers claimed
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: he trained small teams of commandos to infiltrate Cuba, reach
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: human targets, and assassinate them. Anyone in a senior position
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: in government was fair game, and it reached down to
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: the provincial heads, police chiefs, and so on. But the
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: principal target, we knew, was Castro. Ayers also points out
• 31:18
  Speaker 5: that RFK visited CIA personnel at their base in the
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: Everglades in South Florida. I'm confident That's RFK stuff. He
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: was one of the first career officers to voice opposition
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: to the Vietnam War. After he left the Army, he
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: worked as a licensed pilot and flight instructor and was
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: later a real estate broker as a private detective in Arizona, Florida, Minnesota.
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: And so the interesting part about this, Rob, is during
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: the ARB.
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: Oh, no.
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: What? Oh, I thought I.
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: I thought I freezed. Oh, no! Okay. So, here we go.
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: He writes a letter to Mr. Judge Tunheim of the ARB,
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: and I want to give a nice shout-out to Andrew Eiler...
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: Because as I was searching for this letter, because I
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: knew it existed, all I found was correspondence regarding the letter. Like,
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: it was really hard to find. And then he sent
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: me another document, which we're going to get into, which
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: is kind of a response to this letter. So, Dear Mr. Tunheim,
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: so I want to thank Andrew for that. I make
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: reference to your letter on February 23rd and my subsequent
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: communications with your staff in preparation for a meeting which
• 32:53
  Speaker 5: is scheduled for I appreciate the opportunity to visit with
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: you concerning matters relating to the assassination of President Kennedy
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: and your appointment as a member of the board that
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: will oversee the release of documents pertaining thereto. Over the
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: past several months, I have furnished your staff with details
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: of my background and other materials which I trust have
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: provided you with some perspective for the information. I hope
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: to personally convey, assuming you have read or have been
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: briefed on the essence of this history, I will not
• 33:33
  Speaker 5: dwell upon it here. However, I take this opportunity to
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: convey copies of two documents which I recently received that
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: relate directly to our discussions of this date. They are self-explanatory.
• 33:48
  Speaker 5: With the context of our meeting hopefully established, I wish
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: to call your attention to the following specifics, which I
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: urge you and the board to be alert for and
• 33:59
  Speaker 5: to pursue within the framework of your mandate. These areas
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: of interest and individual identifications are recommended as a direct
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: result of my experience with CIA Jam Wave Miami Station
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: during the period immediately preceding and following the death of JFK.
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: and my synthesis of other information developed since that experience.
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: I believe the following living individuals have intimate operational knowledge
• 34:32
  Speaker 5: of the circumstances surrounding the assassination and the possible role
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: of the persons and or operations listed in the paragraph
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: which follows. I'm going to reread that, Rob.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: I think it's important. I believe the following living individuals...
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: have intimate operational knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the assassination
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: and the possible role of the persons and or operations
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: listed in the paragraph which follows. Theodore Ted Shackley, Chief
• 35:08
  Speaker 5: of Station, JM Wave. Robert Wall, Deputy Chief of Operations,
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: JM Wave. Grayson Lynch, Contract Paramilitary Trainer, Agent, JM Wave.
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: Felix Rodriguez, contract, paramilitary agent, Cuban-born, J.M. Wave. Thomas Clines,
• 35:30
  Speaker 5: CIA paramilitary case officer, J.M. Wave. Above-named persons with reference
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: to Gordon Campbell, current status unknown. He's, of course, dead
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: at this point, allegedly. Deputy Chiefs of Station, J.M. Wave.
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: David Morales, deceased, Chief of Operations, J.M. Wave. Rip Robertson, deceased,
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: contract paramilitary agent, J.M. Wave. Edward Roderick, current status unknown, U.S.
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: Army major, explosives expert, Corps of Engineers, attached to J.M.
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: Wave and later CIA employee upon retirement from the Army.
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: Tony Sforza, contract paramilitary agent, J.M.
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: Wave.
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: Operation codename Red Cross, J.M. Wave, fall of 1963. So
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: he names a lot of relevant characters here, Rob.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. Four shizzy.
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: Further, I invite your attention to the forthcoming issue of
• 36:34
  Speaker 5: Vanity Fair magazine, October issue, which I am advised will
• 36:38
  Speaker 5: contain an article by Tony Summers, a highly credible journalist,
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: author of conspiracy, that will offer certain revelations, uh, complementing
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: the recommendations made in this communication. I know for a
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: fact that Summers has been diligently pursuing lines of inquiry
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: that may be relevant to the work of the Board
• 37:01
  Speaker 5: and may be useful in unscrambling and evaluating the JFK-related
• 37:05
  Speaker 5: documents produced by the CIA and other government agencies. I
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: hope the information I've provided is helpful to the Board
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: and I remain Prepare to testify under oath to any
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: aspect of my activities should that be desired. Yours very truly,
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: Bradley Ayers. So Rob, you can take that down for
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: a second because I want to discuss some of this.
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: We talk about Ted Shackley as a... at least I
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: consider him like a company man, right? Someone who could
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: be trusted.
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: In multiple theaters, on multiple operations.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: I think I found a picture of him in Laos, dude.
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: Oh, yeah? Yeah.
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: You want to see? Yeah, of course. Thanks, Jamie.
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: Oh, shit.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: Black suit on the right, right here. The blonde ghost.
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: Wow. Wow. Wait, Ayers or Shackley? Shackley.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: Shackley. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Wow.
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: And you could see, like, there are some dark-complected men
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: around him, as well as, obviously, some Vietnamese or Lawisen,
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: or whatever you call them. Laotians. Is that what it is?
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: You just made that up. I did too. I just
• 38:43
  Speaker 5: made it up too. I think it was interesting. Yeah, no,
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: that is crazy. And he had that very famous, those glasses, right,
• 38:55
  Speaker 5: that I showed in the first slide. He didn't change
• 38:58
  Speaker 5: his glasses for probably decades, I'm guessing.
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: He was also the Zodiac Killer in 1969, allegedly.
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: Really? Really?
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: I'm kidding, Joe.
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: Oh, I thought that was like a rumor or a thing.
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, the famous mugshot of the Zodiac Killer,
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: the sketch of the Zodiac Killer had glasses. Everybody that
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: had those glasses back then is a suspect, including Shackley.
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: Right. But it's interesting that Ayers... wasn't like a decades-long
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: company man like Shackley, more of like a contract agent,
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: and he was around in the relevant time, right? Before
• 39:44
  Speaker 5: the assassination and directly after the assassination, where, as you
• 39:47
  Speaker 5: correctly pointed out, There was a lot of probably chaos
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: going on. Dude was probably quite in the know. Now,
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: you go.
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: As far as operations go, yeah. As far as being,
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: you know, you know, in the higher up echelon of
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: Jimmy and Wave and knowledge of all that, I don't
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: think as much. You know, he was more of a
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: than a strategist, planner, or, you know, things like that.
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: He was more on the operations side of things as
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: far as, you know, training, paramilitary operations, drug running, things
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: like that, gun running. And even air is, you know,
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: was active up until and through the whole Contra situation
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: in the 80s with Oliver North and all that. So
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: he's another one.
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just interesting to me his different career paths,
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: whether it be real estate or private investigator. Of course,
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: we've seen many circumstances where former feds would become private
• 41:11
  Speaker 5: investigators and start their own business. but why he wrote
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: this letter I don't know but it definitely sparked a
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: little shit so let me put that back up as
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: we get and this is my last document here before
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: I send it off to y'all and there's like a
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: bunch of more people we have to cover I just
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: wanted to keep it somewhat concise yeah.
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: We are saving some folks for members only Next week.
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Okay, actually, no, this is the wrong tab. Take
• 41:49
  Speaker 5: that down.
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: Joey Tabs.
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: Joey Tabs. I have a lot of tabs tonight, bro.
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: All right, let me see. All right, there we go.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: Okay, here we go. Take two.
• 42:13
  Speaker 5: Take two. Take three. Take four. So this is to
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: Jeremy Gunn from Mary McAuliffe, David Morwell, and Tom Salamuk.
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: And Andrew Eiler was.
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: Samaluk.
• 42:26
  Speaker 5: Samaluk.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: Whatever.
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: Mary McAuliffe was a CIA agent involved with Cubans and
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: JM Wave. And she became... kind of a liaison to
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: the ARB dealing with this.
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: Which kind of makes you wonder.
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it kind of makes you wonder. It's a great analogy, actually.
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: Andrew is very sus of her. And based on what
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: he told me, I would not disagree. So this is
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: the interview, I guess it's a summary, with Brad Ayers.
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: I interviewed former U.S. Army Captain and CIA employee Bradley
• 43:12
  Speaker 5: Ayers on May 12, 1995 at Ayers' home in Woodbury, Minnesota.
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: The interview lasted from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m. That's
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: five hours, bro.
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: Five hours. Ayers was talking.
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: Yes. The following is a summary and report of the interview.
• 43:31
  Speaker 5: Ayers is likable, charismatic, and a friendly man. I felt
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: that a good report. was established between he and myself,
• 43:39
  Speaker 5: so if the board should wish to contact him again
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: in the future, I believe it would be very easy
• 43:44
  Speaker 5: for me to work with him. In a five-hour discussion,
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: we were only able to get through about five of
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: the 12 written pages of material I had prepared for
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: the meeting, which means they were going deep, Rob.
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: Yes. All is deep.
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: The senior staff and the board should determine whether further
• 44:11
  Speaker 5: contact with Ayers is desired for the purpose of discussing
• 44:13
  Speaker 5: the issues left untouched during this interview. Number one, the
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: five sealed envelopes. Ayers says he returned to Florida in
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: February 1965 after the breakup of his marriage and began
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: working again with the Cuban exiles, again being paid through
• 44:30
  Speaker 5: the CIA front company Paragon Air. One of those, he says,
• 44:36
  Speaker 5: he worked with for a short while was Orlando Bosch.
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: Ayers says that he ended this association in 1967 after
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: Bosch threatened to kill him unless Ayers took his private Cessna,
• 44:48
  Speaker 5: flew over Havana, and dropped the bomb. Ayers said, however,
• 44:53
  Speaker 5: that this contact was known about and sanctioned by the CIA.
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: When I later asked Ayers what he believed, was in
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: the five sealed envelopes that were discovered during the HSCA investigation.
• 45:06
  Speaker 5: He responded that he thought it would probably be material
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: on Bosch. I asked why he thought the envelopes would
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: still be sealed, and he responded by asking me, would
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: you want people to know you've been deeply involved with
• 45:21
  Speaker 5: a bloody terrorist? And these are, by the way, Rob,
• 45:27
  Speaker 5: scans i they i guess they were on the black
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: vault but these are scans from our recent trip to
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: nara as you can see by some of the pages
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: being turned back yeah.
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: I think i saw a thumb.
• 45:41
  Speaker 5: It's not only me bro it's hard you try doing
• 45:45
  Speaker 5: 10 second scans for hours uh Ayers did not know
• 45:52
  Speaker 5: of any operations or missions that had been undertaken during
• 45:55
  Speaker 5: the Cuban Missile Crisis. I qualified the question by saying
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: that I believed I had read of some ill-advised mission
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: that had been approved by William Harvey, that Kennedy had
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: been so upset that he tried to fire Harvey, and
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: that only intervention by agency higher-ups saved Harvey. Even so,
• 46:14
  Speaker 5: he ended up exiled to the Rome Station. Ayers responded,
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: that's what the record says, end quote. I asked him
• 46:21
  Speaker 5: to elaborate, and he said that well into the fall
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: of 1963, William Harvey was not only still around JM Wave,
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: but very active in it, which is interesting. He said
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: that Harvey and Morales were drinking buddies, along, sometimes, with Roselli,
• 46:40
  Speaker 5: and that he saw them many times together at places
• 46:43
  Speaker 5: like the State Bar and the New England Oyster House. Oyster, Ayers,
• 46:48
  Speaker 5: said that Harvey made, oysters, Ayers said that Harvey made
• 46:52
  Speaker 5: no effort to conceal himself while in Miami or at
• 46:55
  Speaker 5: the station. David Morales, Ayers claims, who had found in
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: the course of his private investigative work a credible witness
• 47:02
  Speaker 5: who could put David Morales inside the Ambassador Hotel. Here
• 47:07
  Speaker 5: we go. In June of 1968, time of RFK's assassination,
• 47:13
  Speaker 5: Ayers offered to put me on the board in touch
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: with the unnamed person who he feels would be willing
• 47:19
  Speaker 5: to work with the board. That's interesting. But you also
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: have to think, Rob, when we talk about interagency conflict,
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: you have to talk about in-agency conflict. Like, he could
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: have not gotten along with Morales, for example, right? So
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: putting him, you know, in the Ambassador Hotel would be sus,
• 47:45
  Speaker 5: for sure, but you don't know what type of interpersonal...
• 47:50
  Speaker 5: drama was going on between all these, you know, big
• 47:55
  Speaker 5: swinging D's, you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, given Morales' position at the station
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: and Bradley's, I'm sure they pissed each other off from
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: time to time for whatever reason. It wouldn't. It wouldn't
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: surprise me if a lot of these guys didn't try
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: to throw each other under the bus, per se, if
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: you will, for different things, including JFK and RFK assassinations.
• 48:27
  Speaker 5: Right, right, right. Like, we'll never know what type of
• 48:31
  Speaker 5: inner personality conflicts were going on in JM Wave. Because
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: like you said, there were hundreds of them, and thousands
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: of exiles, and people with different agendas, right? So you
• 48:43
  Speaker 5: really don't know.
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, because I used to think, you know,
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: when people said J.M. Wave, I used to think that
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: there was maybe, you know, it was like a room
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: with five guys in it, you know, kind of pulling
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: all the strings. But in fact, you know, it's no,
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: it's a much larger operation than that.
• 49:01
  Speaker 5: Right. One could argue the biggest on American soil.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: One could argue that.
• 49:09
  Speaker 5: One could argue that. What dates were you assigned to J.M. Wave?
• 49:14
  Speaker 5: The FOIA requests are correct. Ayers refers to material he
• 49:18
  Speaker 5: sent to Jeremy Gunn relating to the FOIA requests he
• 49:21
  Speaker 5: had been involved in. This material shows the date of
• 49:24
  Speaker 5: assignment to be May 8th, 1963. So let's just put
• 49:30
  Speaker 5: that date into context. You talk in, what, close to
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: when Oswalt, a little earlier, after Oswald got to New Orleans?
• 49:42
  Speaker 5: Late April, allegedly. The date of his resignation from the
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: Army is October 26, 1964. He returned to Miami in
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: February 65 and worked with the CIA and Cuban exiles
• 49:59
  Speaker 5: through July of 67. He was paid through the Paragon
• 50:04
  Speaker 5: Air Service. In your book, you refer to the following
• 50:08
  Speaker 5: operations— AMARC, AMTHUM, AMTRAK, and AMCHEC. What were these, and
• 50:16
  Speaker 5: what was your role in any of them? AMTHUM was
• 50:20
  Speaker 5: the infiltration of a team of four rifle sharpshooters into Cuba.
• 50:24
  Speaker 5: AMARC and AMCHEC were three-man black teams infiltrated for intelligence purposes.
• 50:32
  Speaker 5: No answer for AMTRAK. His involvement was limited to the
• 50:36
  Speaker 5: paramilitary training of the soldiers who carried out these missions,
• 50:39
  Speaker 5: He was never personally involved. Note, at this point, Ayers
• 50:45
  Speaker 5: interjected that he would read the, quote, after action, end quote,
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: reports from the teams that were carrying out these and
• 50:54
  Speaker 5: other missions. As a paramilitary trainer, he had access to
• 50:58
  Speaker 5: these reports as well as CIA memos going to and
• 51:01
  Speaker 5: from Langley regarding the anti-Castro operations, even up until 1967.
• 51:08
  Speaker 5: He noted with frustration that while all the CIA memos
• 51:11
  Speaker 5: included a mass popular uprising against Castro, all the reports
• 51:15
  Speaker 5: from the field were indicating that Castro had a great
• 51:18
  Speaker 5: popular support and that those exiles who did make it
• 51:21
  Speaker 5: to Cuba were receiving no help from the general population
• 51:26
  Speaker 5: as the CIA had planned. They knew their plan was
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: based on a pretense that was failing, and they never
• 51:33
  Speaker 5: altered it. Hmm. Where have we heard that before? It's
• 51:36
  Speaker 5: kind of like the same Bay of Pigs narrative, right? Oh, yeah. Question.
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: Which of any CIA personnel were personally involved in these operations?
• 51:49
  Speaker 5: Only low and mid-level operatives, such as heirs and team
• 51:53
  Speaker 5: leaders Rip Robertson and Grayson Lynch, were involved directly with
• 51:58
  Speaker 5: the Cubans. And Rob, aren't both Lynch and Robertson the
• 52:04
  Speaker 5: only two Americans, allegedly, that touched shore during the Bay
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: of Pigs invasion. Yes.
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: White guys, yes.
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: The gringos.
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: There may have been some Cubans born here that did,
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: but not actual American. Well, I mean.
• 52:27
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you might have had a couple soldiers of fortune types,
• 52:31
  Speaker 5: but you never know.
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 52:35
  Speaker 5: Shackley was adamant about never being seen by the Cubans.
• 52:39
  Speaker 5: So again, Shackley was above the operational level.
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: Above the fray, yeah.
• 52:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd say more on the political level. Here, Ayers
• 52:53
  Speaker 5: digressed into a discussion of Ted Shackley. Ayers said that
• 52:56
  Speaker 5: he liked Shackley, thought well of him, but he didn't
• 52:58
  Speaker 5: know what to make of him. He was always, quote,
• 53:01
  Speaker 5: impossible to read. Ayers told a story about of finally
• 53:06
  Speaker 5: talking Shackley into observing the training exercise Ayers was conducting.
• 53:11
  Speaker 5: Shackley insisted upon remaining hidden during the exercise. Ayers' men
• 53:15
  Speaker 5: pulled it off flawlessly. Shackley said not a word, gave
• 53:20
  Speaker 5: no expression, and left the scene. That was vintage Shackley. Or,
• 53:26
  Speaker 5: that was vintage expletive Shackley.
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: Vintage fucking Shackley.
• 53:31
  Speaker 5: That's exactly what I.
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: Was going to say. Ha ha ha.
• 53:35
  Speaker 5: This trait of detachedness becomes significant later in the interview.
• 53:39
  Speaker 5: Getting back to the other station personnel, Ayers said that
• 53:42
  Speaker 5: in general CIA personnel only had that contact which was
• 53:46
  Speaker 5: necessary with the Cubans involved in the message. Right. Like compartmentalized. Very, yeah.
• 53:53
  Speaker 5: You don't need to have the Cubans talking to Shackley,
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: for example. No. Were you aware of any operations that
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: took place during the Cuban Missile Crisis? Ayers said that
• 54:03
  Speaker 5: he had read 20 to 30 after-action reports on missions
• 54:07
  Speaker 5: out of JM Wave during his time there, but had
• 54:09
  Speaker 5: never seen anything that indicated to him that missions had
• 54:13
  Speaker 5: been run during the Cuban Missile Crisis. At this point,
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: the William Harvey conversation described in another section of the
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: report ensued. How compartmentalized was the atmosphere at the station?
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: Was the mission talked of openly? Ayers said that Station
• 54:32
  Speaker 5: administration kept things relatively compartmentalized, controlling the number of people
• 54:38
  Speaker 5: attending briefings and limiting information to even crucial personnel. One
• 54:44
  Speaker 5: could only attend the portions of briefings that were relevant
• 54:48
  Speaker 5: for you. That's the definition of compartmentalization. It was unique
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: to sit through an entire briefing. Nonetheless, Ayers said that
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: the majority of the station staff knew when someone from
• 55:01
  Speaker 5: their station went on raids. Importantly, he said that it
• 55:04
  Speaker 5: was well known that one of the mission objectives was
• 55:06
  Speaker 5: to kill Castro. Was there ever a feeling that the
• 55:10
  Speaker 5: commando teams were being, quote, yanked, end quote? That is
• 55:14
  Speaker 5: to say, the administration or the agency were not serious
• 55:17
  Speaker 5: about wanting to out Castro. Ayers said that such a
• 55:21
  Speaker 5: feeling became more and more prevalent as time went by, right?
• 55:24
  Speaker 5: We're talking post-JFK assassination here. This feeling, he said, however,
• 55:30
  Speaker 5: was only expressed by the Cuban instructors and team leaders.
• 55:34
  Speaker 5: The commandos themselves either never felt that way or never
• 55:37
  Speaker 5: expressed themselves. Ayers described the feeling among the instructors as
• 55:41
  Speaker 5: of seething unrest. He specified the names of two men
• 55:46
  Speaker 5: he said were instructors at the time, Joe Clark and
• 55:49
  Speaker 5: Mike Ortega. In what regard were John and Bobby Kennedy
• 55:54
  Speaker 5: held by the station personnel? That's an important kind of question.
• 56:00
  Speaker 5: Ayers was unable to break this question down into time
• 56:04
  Speaker 5: periods as he didn't serve at JM Wave until well
• 56:06
  Speaker 5: after the missile crisis, right, 62, or no, March of,
• 56:11
  Speaker 5: May of 63, I'm sorry. However, he said that while
• 56:14
  Speaker 5: he was there, he never heard Shackley speak badly of
• 56:17
  Speaker 5: the president or the attorney general. Conversely, he said Morales
• 56:21
  Speaker 5: and some of the other case officers, whom he did
• 56:23
  Speaker 5: not name, were openly critical of the policies and functions
• 56:27
  Speaker 5: of the special group. Morales was supposed to viscerally resent
• 56:35
  Speaker 5: the fact that the special group dictated ops from Washington
• 56:40
  Speaker 5: and often used vulgar language to make his point, saying
• 56:43
  Speaker 5: things like, those fucking damned assholes in Washington don't have
• 56:52
  Speaker 5: a fucking idea of how to run an operation. Who
• 56:55
  Speaker 5: the hell do they think they are telling me how
• 56:57
  Speaker 5: to do my job? Ayers said that Robert Kennedy was
• 57:00
  Speaker 5: often in the hot seat in Morales' eyes. What station
• 57:05
  Speaker 5: personnel specifically liked or disliked the Kennedys? So these are
• 57:09
  Speaker 5: good questions here. Ayers said that all principal staffers at
• 57:13
  Speaker 5: the station seemed to like the Kennedys. Asked who disliked them,
• 57:16
  Speaker 5: he immediately mentioned David Morales and Bob Wall. Who was
• 57:21
  Speaker 5: the contact with JFK-RFK? Ayers said that the station had
• 57:24
  Speaker 5: no direct contact with the president, Shackley would often leave
• 57:28
  Speaker 5: the station, and rumors would fly that he was meeting
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: with a special group or the president, but heirs could
• 57:32
  Speaker 5: not directly confirm that. What was it that Margaret, Shackley's secretary,
• 57:41
  Speaker 5: with whom heirs alleges to have an affair with.
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: I banged her.
• 57:47
  Speaker 5: On the desk, on Shackley's desk. Yes. Specifically said that.
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: While I wore his glasses.
• 57:53
  Speaker 5: And this is interesting, Rob. A question. Specifically said that
• 57:57
  Speaker 5: you led to believe that Gordon Campbell, the deputy director,
• 58:01
  Speaker 5: was Maurice Bishop. Nothing formal. Only ships like accidentally referring
• 58:06
  Speaker 5: to him as Bishop instead of Campbell. Or slips. I've never... Oh, slips.
• 58:13
  Speaker 5: I'm sorry. Yeah, slips. I've never heard that before.
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: Dude, if I had a nickel for everybody that Maurice
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: Bishop was supposed to be, I'd be rich.
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: You'd have a private jet on standby. To your recollection,
• 58:30
  Speaker 5: did everyone else ever refer to Campbell as Bishop? I
• 58:34
  Speaker 5: don't think so. Ayers asserted that he went into a
• 58:39
  Speaker 5: conversation about Fonzie, Bishop, and David Atlee Phillips. Ayers asserted
• 58:43
  Speaker 5: that Phillips was a minor character at JM Wave. He
• 58:47
  Speaker 5: said that when the HSCA put out a sketch of Bishop,
• 58:50
  Speaker 5: lots of people wanted it to be Phillips. However, Phillips
• 58:53
  Speaker 5: was not Bishop. Ayers felt that Antonio Vecchiano was telling
• 58:57
  Speaker 5: the HSCA the truth when he could not identify Phillips
• 59:03
  Speaker 5: as Bishop. Oh, did he tell the HSCA that? Because
• 59:06
  Speaker 5: he had been dealing with Campbell. Ayers said that the
• 59:08
  Speaker 5: sketch looked to him to be a very accurate drawing
• 59:11
  Speaker 5: of Campbell. But of course, Campbell died in 62. So
• 59:17
  Speaker 5: I'm not really sure on the timeline there.
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: Allegedly.
• 59:21
  Speaker 5: Right. When asked why he didn't refer to Campbell as
• 59:25
  Speaker 5: bishop in his 1976 book, Ayers said that the HSCA
• 59:30
  Speaker 5: had not begun its work yet and the name Bishop
• 59:32
  Speaker 5: had no significance at the time his book was published.
• 59:36
  Speaker 5: Do you know any document or list of pseudonyms used
• 59:39
  Speaker 5: by JM Wave personnel during their operations? Where would such
• 59:42
  Speaker 5: a list be kept? So again, continuing good questions here.
• 59:46
  Speaker 5: There's got to be one, but no, I don't know
• 59:48
  Speaker 5: of one specifically. Ayers said that such a list would
• 59:51
  Speaker 5: be kept in the cover branch. The reality was that
• 59:56
  Speaker 5: the pseudonyms and identities were kept very private. The only
• 59:59
  Speaker 5: one who knew all of them was Shackley's secretary, who
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 5: he was banging. Ayers said that he, like most personnel,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 5: were assigned more than one pseudonym taken from the London
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 5: phone book. That's interesting. His were Anthony P. DeGruy's and
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 5: Daniel B. Williams. I suggest a file search for those
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 5: two names. Would a list of front companies be kept
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 5: there in the cover branch as well? Without a doubt.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: There was a list of companies kept somewhere. It would
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 5: have been vital not to use a name that was
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 5: being used elsewhere or had been, quote, burned, end quote,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: or exposed at some time in the past. Avoiding duplication
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 5: would have been critical. So Ayers is certain that the
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 5: station and the CIA would keep such a list. How
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 5: often was David Attlee Phillips in Miami? Periodically, in and out.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 5: He had no contact with Ayers, blah, blah, blah. I'm
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 5: going to skip that part. Did Morales ever try and
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 5: pass himself off as Cuban? Not to Ayers' knowledge, but
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 5: he could easily pass for Cuban, end quote. Morales was
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 5: allegedly a very good actor and could, quote, pull... Pull
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 5: off lots of roles, end quote. Here the conversation drifted
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 5: into a discussion of David Morales and his emotional makeup.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 5: Ayers charged that Morales was a mean man who paraded
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 5: around the station like a tyrant. Everyone was apparently afraid
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 5: of him. Morales hung with what Ayers called the Circle. Morales, Roselli, Sforza,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 5: Manuel Artheim, and Rip Robertson. The four were drinking buddies
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 5: and of like mind on politics. Ayers said they were
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 5: vicious too. Quote, if anyone put together a sniper team
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 5: to hit the presidents, Morales, Ripp, Roselli, and Sforza would
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 5: have done it. Interesting. Ayers noted that Airtime, Robertson, Roselli,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 5: and Sforza all died just as the HSCA began investigating.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 5: That was interesting. He suggests checking for Morales' whereabouts during
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 5: the late 70s, especially on the times these men were killed.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 5: I don't know if he's insinuating that Morales had anything
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 5: to do with that. Beyond John Roselli, did you ever
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 5: see any mafia types at or around JM Wave? Not
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 5: to air his knowledge. Was it known who John Roselli
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 5: really was? There were rumors that Roselli was with the mob,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 5: brought in specifically to kill Castro, but nothing was ever substantiated.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 5: In fact, Roselli was presented slash introduced to everybody as
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 5: Colonel John Roselli of the Army. Heirs never knew him
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 5: as anything but Colonel Roselli. However, those aforementioned rumors were
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 5: widespread among the trainees at the camps. Roselli was around
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 5: the station until the late summer of 1963. Ayers emphasized
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 5: that he never, in caps, never is in caps, saw
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 5: Roselli after the Kennedy assassination. What was the reaction around
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 5: JM Wave when Kennedy was killed? For the actual conducting
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 5: of the program, Ayers said there was a period of
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 5: about six to eight weeks of paralysis. Rob?
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: Exactly what I said.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 5: Exactly. Did you read this document?
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: I did not.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: I know. You're good. After which training resumed in a
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 5: subdued manner, which makes sense. Operations were wound down over
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 5: the course of 64 because LBJ's priority was in Vietnam,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 5: not Cuba. After the assassination, work came down to keep
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 5: everyone's eyes open for any sign that Castro was involved
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 5: in any way with the murder.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 4: I don't know if it was LBJ's priority. It was
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: more like the Joint Chiefs' priority.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 5: Right, right.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: LBJ couldn't give a shit.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 5: Right, I don't think he did either.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: Insert expletive here.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't give a fuck.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: Insert racial slur here.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 5: So they're keeping an eye on Castro to see if
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 5: he was involved with the murder of JFK. None of
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 5: the exiles believe that Castro could have done it, Ayers said,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 5: which I don't really believe because a lot of the exiles,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 5: still some to this day, say that, but he never
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 5: had a feeling that the Cubans were relieved that Kennedy
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 5: had died. In fact, and again, you have to take
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 5: this into context, right? He's kind of involved in paramilitary
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 5: operations with these Cubans, exiles, so he's not going to
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 5: necessarily throw them under the bus. Right.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 4: But I doubt the ones he were hanging with were pro-Castro.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 5: He never had a feeling that the Cubans were relieved
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 5: that Kennedy had died. In fact, JFK's death boded ill
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 5: for the anti-cash flow operation since Johnson was less concerned
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 5: about Cuba than Kennedy had been. As for the CIA,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 5: that's ironic. As for the CIA personnel at JM Wave,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 5: their reaction was curious. The atmosphere prior to the assassination
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 5: was generally in favor of Goldwater in 1964, but not
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 5: overtly so. After the shooting, their descendant, there descended on
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: the station what Ayers called an eerie silence. Everyone else
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 5: in America, indeed the world, people were talking about the
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 5: shooting about JFK and whether Oswald was guilty. At JM Wave,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 5: Ayers said, no one discussed it.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because they thought one of their anti-Caster Cuban exile
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: groups or individuals were behind it.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: Consequently you know their case officers would be swept up
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: in it and so on up the line but yeah.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 5: Right it's kind of like a cover your ass type
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 5: of thing like no one talked about it like they
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 5: knew but it was not discussed.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah because these anti-castro Cuban exiles would do shit all
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: the time that the CIA did not want them to
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: do they did not listen very well to orders from
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 4: the CIA despite being paid very well by the CIA,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: they simply wanted to get to Castro one way or
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: the other.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 4: And because of being shackled and being told no over
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: and over and over again, that's why people think that
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: it possibly could have been some anti-Castro Cuban exiles who say,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 4: all right, well, screw it. We can't get to Castro.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: We can't get off the shores. Let's take out Kennedy
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: and start some shit. And maybe the government will do
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 4: our dirty work for us.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 5: Upon having his first meeting with Shackley since the shooting,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 5: Ayers said that he tried to bring up the subject
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 5: with Shackley. According to Ayers, Shackley was sat stone-faced. No
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 5: emotion whatsoever. Classic Shackley reaction. Ayers was unable to determine
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 5: whether the atmosphere of acceptance at the station was due
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 5: to some inside knowledge or forewarning. or was merely a
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 5: reflection of the personality of its leader. Ayers said, however,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 5: that he personally believes that Shackley was very upset with
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 5: Kennedy's death.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: Vintage fucking Shackley.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and he could have been upset because maybe not
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: over the death of JFK specifically, and I don't really
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 5: know what Shackley thought. I'm very interested to kind of...
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 5: I want to order his book used and read it, but...
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 5: he could have been upset with possibly some people under
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 5: his umbrella. Yeah. Were involved. Right. You can take that
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 5: both ways.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 5: Air says that the counties micromanage every asset of the
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 5: program of JM wave and mongoose. He was certain that
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 5: they knew of, if not initiated each phase of the plan. Um,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 5: And then they have some suggested questions for future contact.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 5: I don't believe they did. I'd have to check, but
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 5: I don't believe... Like, I believe this five-hour interview.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 4: When did Ayers die, do you know?
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 5: He died in... in 2017?
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: Oh, so he was still around, but they just never
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 4: got back to him, I guess.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 5: Let me check for sure. Yeah, let me get back
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 5: to you on that. I'll be jamming. But I'm going
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 5: to hand it over to you. And, you know, just
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 5: very interesting interview. And, you know, the ARB is overlooked
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 5: in a lot of ways, but they did do some
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 5: good interviews. And this is one of the most interesting
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 5: to me. Of course, being interested in the Cuban exiles
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 5: and all the skifuzery they were up to. I find
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 5: it very revealing that this guy would would make these
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 5: type of accusations without any evidence or foreknowledge or, I
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 5: don't know. It's a fascinating guy. He's not talked about.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 5: A lot of you might be hearing about him for
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 5: the first time. I know I learned a lot reading
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 5: this document, and I thought it was very interesting, and
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 5: I'm going to dig into more of him later, probably
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 5: members only, so.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Joseph. All right. Moving over, I'm going to
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 4: show everybody. This is Building 25 on the campus of
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 4: the University of Miami. This is JM Wave headquarters, Joe.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 5: Oh.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 4: As it appeared in the 60s, a little ran, shackle,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 4: and run down looking.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 5: Yes, it was an abandoned building, I believe, that they
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 5: took over, right?
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Doesn't look like it had any air conditioning, which
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 4: would have been brutal in Miami in the summer.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 5: Oh, my God.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 4: You see a lot of these windows open, you know?
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 4: A lot of sweaty balls inside this building.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 5: Are those some air conditioners on, like, the top left windows? Maybe.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 4: I don't think so.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 5: They might just be open windows.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 4: I don't know. But the cool thing is they had, like,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 4: this stanchion at the very top where you could go
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 4: up and just hang out, I guess, and look at
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 4: the stars in the sky and.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 5: Smoke cigs.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah. You know, pontificate the meaning of life and smoke
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 4: a couple cigs or smoke a couple joints, whatever you
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: want to do up there. And to illustrate some of.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 4: This is some of the... And I didn't make this,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: by the way. This is some of JM Wave's tentacles
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 4: out into Miami. They owned boat shops, they owned travel agencies,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 4: detective agencies, um, all around South Miami, Miami beach, Dade County, uh,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 4: that were, there were covers, uh, for a lot of
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 4: their employees. So, you know, you might have some guy
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 4: working in the boat shop, but you know, and, uh,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 4: you know, when they needed to talk to him, like
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 4: Joe said, you know, a lot of this, a lot
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 4: of the operations were compartmentalized, uh, So it wasn't like
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 4: all these guys came to work there every day, 300
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: or 400 people, and sat around at their desks and
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 4: did things. It was mostly the upper brass and a
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 4: few of the big dogs when needed. And a lot
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 4: of these lesser folks who were important to the CIA,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 4: but they didn't need to be at Building 25 all
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 4: the time. You know, they had to do something during
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 4: the day. And, you know, things like this would actually
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 4: make the CIA money. You know, they were spending a
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 4: lot of it.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 5: But they had side hustles, if you will.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they had a lot of side hustles, shell companies.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: You know, like Ayers was saying that he was getting
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 4: paychecks from Paragon Air. Well, that's not just a shell
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 4: company that didn't do anything. It was a legit company
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 4: that actually did stuff. It was just owned by the CIA.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 4: And it allowed them to pay folks kind of off
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 4: the books, if you will, who were not official employees
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 4: of the CIA. A lot of black money going around
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 4: back then.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 5: Right. And Rob, I just want to interrupt you because
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 5: I love to do that, as you know. Mr. John
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 5: Lindback had a good comment here I wanted to discuss.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 5: The blonde ghost is tied directly to Lauren Hall via
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 5: Eddie Bio and the Operation Tilt, also known as the
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 5: BioPoly Raid. Yes. That is a whole other topic that
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 5: I didn't want to tangent into because I went over
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 5: an hour. But Hall confirmed this in his HSCA testimony
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 5: that he helped plan the operation that Ted Shackley approved.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 4: Yes. And, folks... If you're listening, I'll do a shameless
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: plug here for Quick Hits. Coming to you live tomorrow morning.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 5: Whoa.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 4: From TLG Studios. I will be talking more about Lauren
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 4: Hall tomorrow morning, live on Quick Hits. So be on
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 4: the lookout for that.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 5: Oh, that is fascinating.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 4: Interesting stuff.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and John... send Rob an email. We got to
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 5: get you back on. Cause, uh, maybe on the, the
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 5: run up to the, uh, uh, DB Cooper con. And
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 5: I think you have some new stuff on hall too,
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 5: which would be cool. Yeah.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: Maybe after that, the DB Cooper con, because it's kind
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 4: of close to the 22nd, the weekend.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 4: Um, so maybe, maybe we can set something up for
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 4: after that. Um, We can recap the conference and get
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 4: into your new stuff as well. But I digress. Yeah, sorry.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 4: We digress.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 5: We always do. All right.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 4: Next up we have Sal Vulcano from Impractical Jokers. No,
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry. This is David Sanchez Morales, a.k.a. El Indio Joe.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 5: El Indio, yes.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 4: He does kind of look like Sal Vulcano.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 5: Could definitely pass for Cuban.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 4: Could definitely pass for Cuban. This is from his younger
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 4: days when he was in the Army. Paratrooper, officer, badass, allegedly. Again, 6'2.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 5: I would take back the allegedly. He was a badass.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 4: You know, allegedly. But about Morales a little bit here.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 4: he was an imposing figure, uh, both mentally and physically
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 4: over six foot, two heavily built, terrifyingly competent at everything
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 4: that he set forth to do. Right now, before, before
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 4: jam wave, he was a key field operator in PB success.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 4: That would be the 1954 CIA coup in Guatemala.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 4: It was, uh, uh, helped planned by E Howard hunt
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 4: and company.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 5: And you remember what Ayer said about him. He said
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 5: he walked around the office, I'm paraphrasing, like a tyrant.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 5: Everyone was scared of him.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know, when you're a badass who can
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 4: handle your own in an office full of stiffs, yeah, okay.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 4: Like, I imagine Shackley was a genius mentally, but, you know,
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 4: probably a timid person in person you know what i
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 4: mean like yeah he wasn't a field operator right.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 5: He wasn't in like operations or training exiles he was
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 5: more of i don't know if i want to say
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 5: fixer but more of like uh the top brass type
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 5: of thing you know and if you see his glasses
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 5: in the first picture i showed uh he get he
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 5: gives that aura off you know yeah.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 4: Um So Morales would become the chief of operations at
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 4: JM Wave. He was the guy you called when you
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 4: needed a problem solved without asking permission from headquarters, if
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, Joe. Yes.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 5: Off the books type shit.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 4: And Morales was not shy about his feelings toward JFK either.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 4: Multiple people later testified that Morales harbored a burning raw
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 4: hatred for Kennedy over the Bay of Pigs failure. Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 4: He blamed JFK personally for the deaths and capture of
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 4: his exiled friends, as did many of the anti-Castro Cuban exiles.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 4: The most chilling account of this comes from his boyhood
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 4: friend and business associate Ruben Carbajal, along with attorney Robert
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 4: Walton in 1973, Joe. During a late-night drinking session after
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 4: Morales had retired, allegedly, from the CIA, the conversation turned
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 4: to JFK. And Morales went on a rant about Kennedy's betrayal,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 4: ended up leaning in and reportedly said, Hey, we were
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 4: in Dallas when we got the son of a bitch.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 4: And we were in Los Angeles when we got the
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 4: little bastard. Just so you know.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 5: Right. Yeah. And that's a very interesting topic, too. because
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 5: wasn't Carbajal, like, very, very close with Morales?
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Boyhood friend. Business associate.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah. So for him to say that is nothing to, like,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 5: is significant. It's significant. Right. Right.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but again, is this just drunken braggadocious? Drunken braggadocio,
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 4: whatever you want to call it.
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 5: Could be.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 4: A lot of people took credit for the Kennedy assassination
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 4: when they really didn't have anything to do with it. But,
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 4: you know, we'll just never know.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 5: Oh my God, before you go on. Sweet. I look
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 5: forward to being on the Noscafooza zone again. That is true.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 5: We are to the Noscafooza zone. Except for me, but
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 5: I don't count.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 4: Awesome. Hopefully, John, they are pictures of him and tighty-whities.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 4: Those are my favorite. That and the giant eagle tattoo
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 4: on his back and his tramp stamp. House investigators like
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 4: Gaten Fonzie for the HSCA spent years trying to dig
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 4: into Morales and figure him out. Fonzie suspected Morales' operational
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 4: fingerprints were all over the Miami and New Orleans networks
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 4: that intersected with Lee Harvey Oswald during the summer of 63. Allegedly. Allegedly. So,
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: let's see here. Where is my, where is my mind?
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 4: Thomas Clines. Let's get into a little bit about old TC,
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 4: Tom Clines.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 5: I don't know much about this guy, so I'm interested
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 5: in learning some more.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 4: Well, he's interesting, Joe. He's interesting. Tom Clines served as
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 4: Deputy Chief of Operations under Morales.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 5: Right, so one under.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, one under. So where Morales was the intimidating enforcer,
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 4: Clines was more the master of logistics and asset handling. Because,
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 4: as you can imagine, Morales probably wasn't very good with people.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 5: Yes, yes.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 4: Not a real people person.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 5: This guy looks like a people's person.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, that looks like your grandpa. You could
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 4: give a big old hug, you know? Right, right, yeah.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 4: Big old fuzzy teddy bear.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 5: And you need that kind of dynamic... In a sense, right?
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you sure do. Especially when people have to
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 4: deal with somebody like Morales. Clines managed the daily mechanics
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 4: of Operation Mongoose. This is, you know, the day-to-day operations.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 4: The work that, you know, nobody wanted to do, really. But,
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 4: you know, when you're under certain people, eventually things fall
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 4: to you and you've got to take care of it.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 4: You know, like, Morales wasn't going to sit here and
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 4: handle the day-to-day operations of Mongoose and funnel weapons and
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 4: cash and equipment to different Cuban exile raiding groups. You know,
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 4: that was kind of beneath him. So dudes like Tom
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 4: Clines would do this stuff.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 5: Right. That makes sense.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So Clines is critical, really, because he represents the
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 4: bridge between, you know, kind of JM wave and decades
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 4: of future covert scandals.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 4: Things that would happen in the future. It would go
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 4: all the way into the Vietnam War and the Iran-Contra
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 4: scandal into the 80s.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 5: Right? What's he wearing on the right?
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 4: He's wearing a Cliff Huxtable sweater. What do you mean,
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 4: what's he wearing?
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 5: What is that?
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 4: It's a very 1980s-esque sweater, Joe. Okay.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 5: I was born in the 1980s, bro. I don't know
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 5: about these things. That's why I asked you. Good Lord.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 5: I'm not trying to outdate you or anything, but I'm
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 5: just curious.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 4: Um, so to your misinformation that you said earlier about
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 4: clients dying during the HSCA investigation, he actually didn't.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 5: Well, that was according to heirs, right? That's what heirs said. Right.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 4: Well, he did not.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 4: As we'll see here in a minute. Um, But he
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 4: had direct oversight of the exile groups operating out of
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 4: South Florida and worked closely with figures like Ted Shackley,
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 4: who ran the station. So, you know, Clines would have
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 4: overseen people, you know, like a Joe Anides type, right?
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 4: People that were running these anti-Caster Cuban exile groups.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 5: Robertson, Jenkins.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 4: Well, not necessarily... But yes, kind of. Kind of.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 4: Yes. What's striking about Clines is that his operational circle
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 4: actually never really broke up. Years later, during the Vietnam
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 4: War and the Iran-Contra affair in the 80s, Clines was
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 4: right back in the shit of off-the-books arms dealings alongside
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 4: Dick Secord, Oliver North, and his old jam-wave comrade, Joe
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 4: Felix Rodriguez, who we'll get more into here in a minute.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 4: When you look at Morales and Klein's together, you see
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 4: the brain and the engine of JM Wave's paramilitary operations
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 4: in 63. But to execute those missions, they needed a
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 4: man on the water. They needed men on the water
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 4: and in the field, which is where folks like Rip
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 4: Robertson would come in, Joe. Now, Rip Robertson, legit operator, badass. Okay?
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 5: 100%.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 4: You know, this guy is a legend in the CIA
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 4: paramilitary circles. During the Bay of Pigs, Robertson was explicitly
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 4: ordered by Langley to stay on his command boat and
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 4: not set foot on Cuban soil. But what did he do, Joe?
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 5: He set foot on Cuban soil.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 4: He said, fuck you. He ignored the order, grabbed an
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 4: assault rifle, and led the very first landing party ashore himself.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 4: first wave that is huevos is what we call those
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 4: huevos extremely huge large huevos 100 and uh you know
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 4: that essentially is rip robertson and you know he's a
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 4: guy that took a lot of chances he believed in
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 4: himself and his teams very deeply and uh you know
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 4: he was just a badass He commanded the station's maritime fleet,
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 4: if you want to call it that. Basically heavily armed
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 4: raiding craft like the Barber J and the Houston. No
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 4: George Bush references allowed here. Launched night attacks against Cuban
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 4: oil refineries and coastal installations. So this guy's doing like
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 4: covert black ops infiltration missions, mostly on boats, from boats.
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 4: So very badass. And Rip Robertson worked directly under David
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 4: Sanchez Morales. Okay, so he was closely tied.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah. And by extension, Klein's probably.
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 4: He was closely tied to anti-Castro Cuban exile squads in
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 4: Miami and Dallas. In fact, several assassination researchers, including Gaten Fonzie,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 4: noted that Rip Robertson was allegedly spotted in Dallas around
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 4: key timeline windows in late 63, though official records remain shrouded.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 4: And there is a photo of, allegedly, Rip Robertson in
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 4: Dealey Plaza giving the old tip of the hat as
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 4: JFK went by before he turned onto Elm Street.
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 4: Allegedly.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 5: There is, and by the way, man, I.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 5: I think it might be him.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 4: I mean, goddamn, it looks like him.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 5: And if you think about how he would run his
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 5: probably operations or compartmentalized groups, you could see how he
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 5: always wanted to be in the field, in a sense, right?
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 5: Or on the beach. First wave you're talking about, right?
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the one thing that screams to me that this
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 4: is not Rip Robertson is that I think if he
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 4: was on the scene... I don't think he would just
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 4: be standing in the crowd, tipping his hat to JFK.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 4: I think he'll be doing something, you know, behind the
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 4: rifle somewhere. I mean, this guy's a ballsy operator. I
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 4: think he would be doing more than standing on the curb, uh,
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 4: watching what's about to go down, but maybe I could
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 4: be wrong.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 5: No, that's, that's a, that's a fair point.
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 4: And no bombada. It is not the triple X hat photo. Uh,
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 4: That would be Edgar Eugene Bradley in the XXX hat photo.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 4: Not Rip Robertson. I don't know. See if you can
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 4: find that Rip Robertson photo in Dealey Plaza. Jamie, if
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 4: you can pull that up for me yeah I will
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 4: thank you that way we'll see it.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 5: Alright you just continue as I look for.
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 4: Well I'm done with Rip Robertson okay um about to
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 4: move on to Tony Sforza, but I just wanted to
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 4: get a picture of him up there. I didn't have
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 4: time to grab one.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 5: Okay, let me just find the best one, because I
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 5: found it. Okay, let me do this. Alright, let me
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 5: share my screen. I'll stop my other screen share. God,
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 5: this computer is so much better than the other Skafuza.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 5: thing I had here alright.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 4: Yes here we go so we have Rip Robertson on
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 4: the right and allegedly Rip Robertson on the left at
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 4: the corner of Maine and Houston I mean it looks
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 4: like him it does God damn.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 5: It's hard to tell.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 4: Big nose, little mouth.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 5: The nose really kind of gives kind of a way.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 5: And if you look at the lower lip, the little
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 5: bump there. Yeah.
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 4: I mean, there's nothing that screams about the photo on
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 4: the left as being, hey, this is not Rip Robertson.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 5: It's kind of like the same tie, too.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, same kind of thin knot. I mean, it's pretty good.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's better than all others, maybe except dark
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 5: complected man being Santiago.
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but like I said, the only thing I could
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 4: think of that makes me think that this is not
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 4: him is if he was there, he would be doing
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 4: more than tipping his hat to Kennedy as he went by.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 4: But maybe I could be wrong.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 4: Maybe he wanted to get his hands dirty and maybe
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 4: he just wanted to be there to see it as a,
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 4: big F you to Kennedy as he went by.
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 5: Right. Or, or maybe he was just so old at
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 5: that point that I don't want to say old, but
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 5: older age that Robertson that this was 63.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 4: He just stormed the beaches two years before that 61.
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 5: I know. Um, I'm saying like, maybe he like, maybe
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 5: he like gave it to the exiles at that point.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 5: I don't know, but You could make an argument either way,
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 5: but it is.
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 4: No, I mean, shit, the next year he was in what?
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 5: The Congo.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 4: In the Congo doing shit.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 5: Right. With all the other ex-liles he was running.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 4: So, I don't think he was too old to just
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 4: hang it up by.
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 5: Then, Joe. Right, but I mean, can you imagine him, like,
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 5: standing behind the fence? Like, type of thing? Yeah. Or
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 5: was he above that?
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 4: I don't think he would have been above that. Okay.
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying he was, but, you know, obviously, if
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 4: he was there, he was in Dealey Plaza at the
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 4: corner of Elm and Houston. But I would think that
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 4: he would be an operator, but maybe not. Maybe just
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 4: a planner and a, see you later, motherfucker, type thing.
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 5: Yep. No, it's fascinating. And you talk about Shackley going
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 5: to Laos and Robertson going to the Congo and Like,
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 5: all these people were recycled, and I believe that's because
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 5: they were really trusted.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 4: Well, not only trusted, but they were good at what
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 4: they did. Of course, of course.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 5: Trusted because they did what they did really well.
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 4: All right, moving on. Tony Sforza. Now, when you hear
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 4: the name Tony Sforza, you think maybe this guy was
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 4: Cuban or something, but no.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 4: No, Tony Sforza, born in America.
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 5: Whitey.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 4: Probably of Italian descent, Joe.
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 5: Here we go.
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 4: Love to fish, he did.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 5: Mr.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 4: Tony Sforza.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 5: I like him already. He's one of David Boylan's favorite characters,
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 5: I believe.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, he doesn't look like much.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 5: You know what I mean?
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 4: Like, he doesn't look like a badass operator. But, uh...
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 4: You never know. Here he is dancing with his boo.
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 5: Well, he's fishing on his free time.
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 4: I mean, he's... He's dancing with his wife Gladys here in, uh,
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 4: looks like the 40s or 50s. All right.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 5: Um... She looks like a baddie in her time. Yeah.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 4: Now, these are legitimately him because this is his Find
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 4: a Grave, um, page that was put together by his daughter.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 4: So these are definitely photos of him.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 5: Right, right.
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 4: It says Anthony was born in Ohio to Abramo and
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 4: Dolores Rose Sforza. At a young age, he enlisted and
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 4: served in the U.S.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 5: Navy.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 4: He worked all his life for the Central Intelligence Agency,
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 4: from which he retired in 77. He is survived by
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 4: his wife and five daughters, Joe. God damn, what a house.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 5: That's some bad luck there.
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 4: The one that put this page together is Daniela Sforza.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 4: He would have been a proud grandfather of eight grandkids.
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 4: And it says he liked to say, Yay, though I
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 4: walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 4: fear no evil, for I am the meanest son of
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 4: a bitch in the valley. So, you know, maybe looks
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 4: can be deceiving.
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 5: Right. Was he part of the Stay Behind Network in Cuba?
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 5: I believe. No. No.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 4: Okay. I don't think so. He doesn't look very Cuban
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 4: to stay behind in Cuba.
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 5: That is true.
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 4: But I could be wrong. I mean, when you see
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 4: this picture with him dancing with his boo, he does
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 4: have darker hair. Maybe this picture was taken at a
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 4: later age. He did die when he was only 62
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 4: in 1985, Joe. So Bradley Ayers was wrong. He did
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 4: retire from the CIA in 77 during the HSCA. Coincidence
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 4: or conspiracy?
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 5: He lived in Havana under the cover of being a
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 5: professional gambler, Frank Stevens, and developed contracts with the mafia,
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 5: a close associate of Ted Shackley. He was based at
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 5: JM Wave, so I think I was right. In 1963,
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 5: Sforza was in Cuba under deep cover. It is possible
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 5: he was involved in at the time of trying to
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 5: get Fidel Castro's sister, Juanita Castro, out of the country.
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 5: He was also in Mexico City in November of 63. So,
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 5: and then he, you know, goes to Chile in 70,
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 5: which I believe Shackley was involved in as well. So yeah, okay.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 5: I just, I thought I was, remembered Boylan saying something
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 5: about that.
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 4: So Tony Scafusa, Scaforza, was a, the master of deep
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 4: cover infiltration.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 5: He would kill you if he heard that nickname.
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 4: And psychological warfare, a.k.a. PsyOps. At JM Wave, he had
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 4: a hands-on management of high-value exile assets like Joaquin Sangenis,
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 4: who ran the covert Operation Amtronk, hello, infiltration program, and
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 4: Brigade 2506. Also allegedly ran Frank Sturgis as well. Frank
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 4: Sturgis always said that Joaquin San Genes was his case agent.
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 4: So Sforza would have been San Genes' boss. So why
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 4: does Sforza matter? Skafooza Skaforza matters. Why does he matter
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 4: to the JFK assassination investigation?
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 5: His daughters are going to come after you.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 4: Or his granddaughter.
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 4: In 1963, specifically, Sforza was handling exile assets moving in
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 4: between Miami, New Orleans, and the Caribbean. So when Lee
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 4: Harvey Oswald was handing out pamphlets for Fair Play for
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 4: Cuba in New Orleans and getting into stage street fights
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 4: with anti-Castro exiles, he was operating directly in Tony Sforza's backyard.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 4: So he was in Sforza's sandbox, taking a giant dump
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 4: in it.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 5: And his purview.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Many researchers have long raised questions about whether or
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 4: not Sephora and his assets were monitoring or actively orchestrating
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 4: the intelligence environment around Oswald in New Orleans. Allegedly. Allegedly.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 4: And finally we get to Mr. Felix Rodriguez, Joe.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 5: Who I believe is still alive, no?
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 4: He is still alive. Out of all these motherfuckers, this
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 4: guy is still alive.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 5: I heard Jenkins was alive too, but I don't know
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 5: if that's true or not.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 4: I would put Rodriguez a couple rungs higher than Jenkins.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd say so.
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 4: In the whole purview of everything, the amalgamation of all
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 4: this horseshit.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 5: And isn't it frustrating that this dude could shed so
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 5: much on what was going on there at JM Wave
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 5: and whatever. And you know if he was ever interviewed,
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 5: especially now, he wouldn't say anything different. Like there's a
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 5: 0% chance.
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 4: Well, he has been interviewed a lot recently by a
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 4: lot of different folks. Danny Jones got him in Florida
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 4: a couple years ago.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 5: Oh, right. Yeah. I think we might have done that
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 5: on Members Only one time.
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he said some crazy stuff. He joined Brigade 2506
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 4: and infiltrated Cuba prior to the Bay of Pigs and
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 4: was recruited into JM Wave as a top paramilitary asset.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 4: After JM Wave, Rodriguez stayed embedded in the CIA covert
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 4: action programs for decades. He became famous in 1967 for
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 4: leading the Bolivian tracking team that captured Shea Guevara. And
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 4: supposedly there's a story out there that Frank Sturges was
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 4: with him and they played soccer with Shea Guevara's head
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 4: after this, allegedly.
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 5: I wouldn't put it past them.
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 4: And there's a rumor out there that Felix Rodriguez kept
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 4: Shea Guevara's Rolex after taking it off his... Corpsey. Allegedly.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 5: Hey, you can't let a good Rolex go to waste.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 4: Although he denies it in the interview. He did deny it.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 5: Denny Jones isn't out there?
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 4: I think so. And just like Tom Clines, Rodriguez pops
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 4: up decades later in the center of the Iran-Contra scandal
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 4: operating out of the Alapango Air Base in El Salvador.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 4: these five men, Morales, Clines, Robertson, Sforza, and Rodriguez, formed
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 4: an operational brotherhood forged in the heat of Jamwave that
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 4: lasted throughout their entire lives, Joe, together.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 5: I do not doubt that at all. Yeah. It seems
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 5: like quite the cast of characters there.
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so just to recap, we have David Morales, Chief
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 4: of Operations... Violent anti-JFK sentiment. Reported we were in Dallas. Confession.
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 4: Focus of HSCA investigations. Tom Climes, Deputy Operations Chief under Morales.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 4: Managed exile logistics and arms supply. The day-to-day bullshit. Long-term
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 4: link to off-the-books intelligence networks, such as the Stay Behind
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 4: Networks and the DRE and things like that. Rip Robertson,
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 4: Maritime Paramilitary Commander. commanded raiding craft, rogue operator with direct
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 4: ties to Dallas, allegedly, aligned exile squads. You have Tony Sforza,
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 4: an infiltration case officer, managed exile network spanning Miami and
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 4: New Orleans during Oswald's 63 activities, and Felix Rodriguez, an
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 4: exile paramilitary asset, Brigade 2506 veteran, personal motives, operational links
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 4: across Jamwave, Bolivia, up into the Iran-Contra scandal. What's interesting
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 4: is that Felix Rodriguez was being given an award by
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 4: the CIA in 1976, and he refused to come get
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 4: it because he didn't respect George H.W. Bush. He said,
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 4: I'm not accepting an award from him. He didn't respect him.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 4: He said he has no operational ties with the CIA whatsoever.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 4: And he has no idea what I've been through, so
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 4: keep your fucking award.
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 5: That's gangster.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 4: It is pretty gangster.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 5: Get your award and stick it up here and you
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 5: know what.
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 4: Although, you know, things would change later going into the
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 4: 80s and 90s. And he was a big proponent of
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 4: George W. becoming a president. I believe, you know, he
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 4: came to not necessarily respect H.W., but... Co-exist?
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah. So.
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 4: What's important to take away from this is you can
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 4: see the kind of structural setup that JM Wave had
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 4: for the Cuban operations... in Miami, proximity-wise. And you can
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 4: see after the assassination, these Cuban operations kind of dropped off.
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 4: And I think for good reason. Because they didn't want
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 4: to attract any more attention to what they were doing
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 4: down there and be outed as, you know, to what
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 4: they were doing down there. So you see a lot
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 4: of these guys... in these same circles, being shifted to
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 4: other places in the world, such as the Congo, such
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 4: as the Far East, Vietnam, Laos. And, you know, a
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 4: lot of these guys just kind of stopped doing what
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 4: they were doing for JM Wave. They just went and
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 4: did it somewhere else.
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 5: Right. They were reassigned. And I've never thought of this before.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 5: Maybe it was intentional, being like, these guys are, like,
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 5: loyal people. you know, operators, but let's distract them and
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 5: send them someplace else.
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 4: Exactly. I mean, they were kind of recycled, right? You know,
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 4: once the cold war had pretty much shifted, if you will, um,
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 4: you know, they didn't disband, you know, the exact same
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 4: trade craft, the front companies, the secret funding channels, they
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 4: were all recycled. Um, for Watergate and the Secret Wars
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 4: of the Southeast Asia and Iran-Contra. So let's talk a
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 4: little bit about Watergate, Joe, and how this affects JM Wave.
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 5: Okay. And you talk about Shackley, too, of how he
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 5: was recycled literally everywhere. I went down the list, you know?
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 5: So when you're trusted, you're trusted. So let's get into Watergate.
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 4: So, you know, look who gets busted for Watergate, Joe. Right?
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 4: You have Felix Rodriguez. You have Bernard Barker.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 5: Both CIA.
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 4: Frank Sturgis.
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 5: CIA. E.
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 4: Howard Hunt. CIA. G. Gordon Liddy.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 5: CIA.
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 4: Um, and so on and so forth. And I know
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 4: I'm missing one other Cuban.
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 5: Oh, you're, you're missing, uh.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 4: Virgilio Gonzalez.
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 5: No. Eugenio Martinez. Yes, there you go.
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 4: Yes, sorry.
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 5: It's okay.
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 4: Um, You know, all these guys had a past somewhat
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 4: together in the early 60s within JM Wave and Cuban operations.
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 4: They were all in the same circles. You could tie
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 4: them all together. You can say E. Howard Hunt and
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 4: Frank Sturgis didn't know each other until Watergate, which is bullshit,
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 4: by the way. And, you know, these are... These are guys... Look, E.
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 4: Howard Hunt was a planner.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 4: Not so much an operative as he was a planner.
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 4: I mean, he was responsible for... He got in the
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 4: CIA's good graces for the coup in Guatemala. He planned
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 4: that out. It went flawlessly for them. And that earned
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 4: him a lot of respect and admiration in the CIA.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 5: And.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 4: As I talked about in the book review I just
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 4: did for.
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 4: Bond of Secrecy, My Life as CIA Spy and Watergate
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 4: Conspirator E. Howard Hunt by St. John Hunt. Cheap plug, Joe.
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 4: He talks a little bit about this. Really, that was
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 4: the beginning of the end for E. Howard Hunt. He
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 4: would be busted and thrown in jail for 33 months
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 4: in 1972. His wife would die in 1972.
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he was blown at that point.
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and virtually overnight, E. Howard Hunt's kids, they had
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 4: to sell their witch's corner in Potomac, Maryland, their house.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 4: So eventually, pretty much overnight, they went from having a
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 4: pretty nice life as the family of a very decorated
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 4: CIA spymaster to overnight being homeless, penniless, and parentless. Which
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 4: is pretty brutal, dude, at 18 years old. You know,
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 4: your mom your mom gets killed in a plane crash
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 4: and your dad is worldwide news outed as a CIA
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 4: spy and Watergate burglar you know and they had to
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 4: sell everything to pay for their legal bills so I
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 4: mean rough life rough life But interestingly enough, so after
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 4: the Kennedy assassination in 1964, they sent E. Howard Hunt
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 4: to Spain to work on creating an American James Bond
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 4: spy hero in novels. Right.
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 5: He was very big on the psyops and the writing
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 5: of the books.
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 4: Yes. The CIA tasked him specifically to come up and
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 4: make them a new James Bond type character who could
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 4: be beloved. by the Americans, somebody that the Americans could
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 4: be proud of as a spy, kind of like James
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 4: Bond is for England. You know, a badass, cool guy that,
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 4: you know, they can make movies about, you know, like
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 4: Mission Impossible. Hello, Ethan Hunt. It's not a coincidence that
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 4: Tom Cruise's star, or the person he portrays in the
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 4: Mission Impossible movies is named Ethan Hunt.
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Isn't there a new one that he just came
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 5: out with, Cruise, in relation to Hunt? I thought I
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 5: saw that online.
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 5: I'll have to double check on that.
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 4: He's done a lot of Mission Impossible movies. I don't
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 4: know how many parts, but there's probably like seven, eight,
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 4: or nine Mission Impossible movies.
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 5: Do you want to know a fun story?
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 4: What's that?
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 5: I once had breakfast... next to Pierce Brosnan.
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 4: Did you?
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 5: In Maui, Hawaii. Hold on, let me see.
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 4: Hello, Pierce. How are you doing this morning?
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 5: I'm just going to, it's going to be horrible quality,
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 5: but let me just show you this real quickly. It's called,
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 5: and I captioned it, and it's hard to see. safest
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 5: breakfast I've ever had with 007 behind me. That is
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 5: him in the orange.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 4: Nice.
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 5: Allegedly. No, it wasn't. It was his wife. It was
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 5: at the Four Seasons, bro. You think Pierce Brosnan is
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 5: not chilling at the Four Seasons?
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 4: You think Joe Borelli ain't chilling at the Four Seasons?
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 5: I did once.
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 4: Swing and dick.
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 5: For what's that worth? For what that is worth.
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 4: Probably thousands of dollars, I would say.
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 5: Yes, but shout out to my boy, Josh, who literally
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 5: in California, he goes, do you want to go to Maui, bro?
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 5: And he was like a big sports better and he
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 5: won a bunch of money. I was like, I can't
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 5: afford that. And he's like, I'll pay for you. Just
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 5: bring the pen. I was like, deal.
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 4: Like they don't have good shit in Hawaii.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 5: This was like 10 years ago, bro.
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 4: So, we know beyond a doubt that JM Wave possessed
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 4: every single operational element required to carry out high-level covert hits.
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 4: They had untraceable weapons, deep-cover safe houses, fake documentations available,
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 4: expert marksmen, case officers trained specifically in PSYOPs, and plausibly
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 4: deniable operations. Now, politically, the motive was undeniably present as well.
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 4: People like David Morales and Rip Robertson were furious with
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 4: the administration, which you talked about, Joe, in their politics
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 4: there at JM Wave. Morales didn't hide his hatred for
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 4: the Kennedys. And when you combine that tradecraft and motive
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 4: with the presence of anti-Castro exile groups in New Orleans
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 4: and Dallas and Miami... the structural overlap with the Lee
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 4: Harvey Oswald narrative becomes a little impossible to ignore.
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 5: Allegedly. 100%.
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 4: But what's equally fascinating is what happened after 63. The
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 4: JM Wave Network didn't vanish after Dallas. And again, like
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 4: I said before, they stayed together and were dispersed throughout
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 4: the world for other clandestine operations. Which leaves us with
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 4: the ultimate question, Joe. Where are we at here with
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 4: all these folks? Were David Morales, Rip Robertson, Thomas Klein, Sforza, Rodriguez, etc., etc.,
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 4: simply soldiers in a brutal, forgotten front of the Cold War?
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 4: Or did the CIA's largest domestic station spawn a rogue
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 4: capability that turned inward on November 22nd? As the House
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 4: investigator Ging Fonzie once noted, when you look at JM Wave,
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 4: you aren't looking at a fringe conspiracy here, folks. You're
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 4: looking at the exact point where state-sponsored covert action and
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 4: domestic tragedy intersect. So, very interesting stuff here with JM Wave. And,
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 4: you know, you see a lot of these folks online
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 4: who like to throw out all these names. You hear
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 4: them all the time, Joe.
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 5: Alan Dollar.
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 4: Well, not Alan Dulles, but I'm talking about the names
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 4: we've been talking about here today.
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 4: David Morales, Will Harvey, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 4: You get it. You hear all of this stuff. But
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 4: at the end of the day, you got to remember,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 4: there's two types of people working at or coming out
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 4: of the JM Wave station and the CIA really in general.
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 4: And that would be, you know, at the end of
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 4: the day, Joe, working for the CIA is a job.
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 4: Like any other. Yes, you are held to a higher
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 4: standard than a lot of other people at a lot
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 4: of other jobs. Yes, you are doing things for the
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 4: good of the country. Yes, you are doing things you
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 4: can't talk about. Yes, you are doing things clandestinely. Yes,
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 4: you are doing things on the fringes Of legality, but
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 4: for the good of the country, right?
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 4: So, you know, a lot of these folks that worked
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 4: at the CIA proper, like a Ted Shackley, are dyed-in-the-wool patriots, right?
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 4: You know, even you said that people there didn't think
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 4: that Shackley was anti-Kennedy.
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 4: You know, he never said a bad word about him. Right.
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 4: And again, at the end of the day, it's a job, folks.
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 4: It's a job. Now, some people take their jobs more
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 4: seriously than others. You can see that in, you know,
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 4: you can contrast that to today's times as well. But again,
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 4: at the end of the day, it's a job. It's
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 4: a very important job. It's a job some people take
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 4: very seriously. And the ones that do take it very
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 4: seriously are generally more successful in said job. You know,
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 4: some jobs you have to basically hand over your life
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 4: to do. Like Tony Sforza, okay? He did all of
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 4: this stuff while having a wife and five daughters. You know, E.
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 4: Howard Hunt had, I think he had three kids initially.
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 4: And then he got remarried after his wife, Dorothy died.
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 4: And he had two more kids after that. So, you know,
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 4: these guys are, we have to remember, they're not just
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 4: these iconic, uh, mysterious folks. They're just regular people like
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 4: you and me, except they have very fantastic lives and
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 4: jobs that are exciting, that are dangerous, possibly, uh, And
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 4: it's very interesting to think about. And people throughout the ages,
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 4: because something is kept so mysterious and clandestine, a lot
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 4: of folks try to paint it in a certain light
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 4: as being evil or malicious or they had to be
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 4: behind the assassination, Joe. They just had to. I heard
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 4: what Morales said. Oh, Harvey hated the Kennedys. He has
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 4: to be behind the assassination. Somebody like him, I can
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 4: see him doing it. But again, at the end of
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 4: the day, these are just folks like you and me.
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 4: They're making very important decisions. Decisions that have very huge
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 4: implications sometimes. Not only for the CIA, but for human life.
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 5: For the world. You know, so.
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 4: These things, you know, they're not taken lightly, Joe.
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, listen, these, if you were to look
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 5: at some people that could pull off an operation, obviously
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 5: people like this, where their ideology probably, uh, outranks their
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 5: loyalty to even their family or their kids, um, probably
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 5: in many cases, maybe not at all. Um, But I
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 5: understand why people look at them. And I know some
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 5: of the smartest researchers in the business are very honed
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 5: in on a lot of the people we talked about tonight.
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 5: So it can kind of go both ways. Yes, it
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 5: is a job. But I think for them it was
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 5: life and death in a sense. Especially if you're risking
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 5: your life. If you're talking about Robertson or Sforza or,
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 5: you know, people like that.
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 4: But guys like that, they're uber patriots, man. You know,
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 4: you have to be of a certain mentality.
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 5: To kill your own president? No.
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 4: To work for the CIA.
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 5: Oh, okay.
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 4: Alright, because, you know, you don't just get hired by
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 4: the CIA off the street. They do background checks. They
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 4: talk to your neighbors. They talk to the doctor that
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 4: delivered you 30 years ago. They go back and talk
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 4: to your second grade English teacher. They just don't hire
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 4: skafoos off the street. I'm sure back then they gave
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 4: them lie detector tests. They went through the gamut of
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 4: really putting these guys through the ringer before they would
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 4: trust them With certain tasks and information, right? So these
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 4: guys that were working for the CIA back then, most
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 4: of these guys were career military guys before they ever
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 4: joined the CIA. They were government pro-American for most of
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 4: their lives. You know, uber patriots.
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and very anti-communist as well.
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 4: They went along with whatever was going on in the
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 4: world at the time. And yes, our government was anti-communist, anti-Soviet, anti-Vietnamese,
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 4: whatever the case may be. And you can throw the
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 4: communist star in behind a lot of this stuff as well.
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 4: But you got to remember, dude, it's a job for
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 4: these guys. that they took, that they went through a
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 4: very difficult vetting process to get. They were making good money. Yes,
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 4: they were doing dangerous things, but, you know, that makes
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 4: life exciting, right?
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 4: It's not your typical everyday get up and go to
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 4: the office type job.
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 5: No, adrenaline junkies, if you will.
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 4: Right. I just find it hard to believe that these guys.
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 5: Would risk their life.
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 4: Would risk everything to go against everything they believe in
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 4: to kill the president of the United States.
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 5: Right. And I'm just going to play devil's advocate. Unless
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 5: they thought that Kennedy and possibly the re-election of Kennedy
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 5: would be detrimental. You could imagine a scenario where that
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 5: type of thought process occurs. No. And I, I, yeah,
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 5: I'm saying maybe that's what I'm saying. Maybe. Um, and
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 5: it would go from person to person, right? David Morales
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 5: or Rip Robertson might, or Tony Sforza might be more, uh,
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 5: gun ho than some of the other people or, or clients.
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 5: I mean, I don't, you know, I don't really know
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 5: what his thoughts were. I don't think any of us do. really,
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 5: but you know what I mean? So it's kind of
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 5: like on a case-by-case basis, but then when you get
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 5: down a level, right, and you go to the Cuban exiles,
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 5: now there's people that would risk their life for this.
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 5: If they thought that Kennedy was a legitimate threat to
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 5: everything they believed in.
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 4: And Josh, even still today, you got cops risking their
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 4: life for way less than that. a year every day,
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 4: firefighters risking their life every day. It's just something that
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 4: they believe in, right. You know, with a conviction, which,
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 4: you know, yes, some, there are some bad cops and yes,
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 4: I'm sure there were some bad operators in the CIA. Um,
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 4: but those type of folks didn't really hang around very long.
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 4: If you know what I'm saying, uh, the CIA could
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 4: definitely deal with those folks in a totally different way.
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 4: Cut them out of things, wipe them out altogether if
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 4: they chose to in a very clandestine manner. These guys
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 4: were loyalists. Like I said, these guys, they grew up,
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 4: they went in the military, they came out of the
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 4: military and went to work for the Central Intelligence Agency.
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 4: It was a lifelong... Dedication, if you will. And sure,
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 4: it's possible that some bad apples turned in the course
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 4: of their thing. But at one time, they had to
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 4: be vetted and they had to be seen and viewed
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 4: and respected as loyal CIA operatives. At one time. Now,
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 4: of course, things could change, but this is why the
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 4: CIA does yearly, quarterly performance reviews. They keep a very
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 4: tight eye on everybody that they employ so that this
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 4: kind of thing doesn't get out of hand because, you know,
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 4: obviously they're worried about a foreign country being able to
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 4: turn one of their own into a double agent.
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 4: Which you don't want.
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 5: No.
• 2:04:52
  Speaker 4: So a lot of these guys in CA were closely monitored.
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 4: Especially these guys that were put out in the field
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 4: for undercover work where they had to infiltrate these other groups.
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 4: Because sometimes they could infiltrate these other groups and be
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 4: turned into mentality. You know? So anything is possible is
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 4: what I'm saying. Anything is possible in this world. I
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 4: just don't think We should focus on one area of
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 4: JM Wave as producing some kind of rogue element that
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 4: could possibly have contributed in some form or fashion to
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 4: the JFK assassination. Although, I will say, it's possible. It's possible.
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 4: And that picture of Rip Robertson, god damn it, looks
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 4: like him in Dealey Plaza.
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 5: And when you're talking about you know, say thousands of
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 5: exiles and hundreds of contract agents, at the end of
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 5: the day, it only takes maybe a half dozen, if
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 5: that even, to pull off an operation like this. If
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 5: you have the operational knowledge to do so.
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 4: You only need one, Joe.
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 5: You do, well.
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 4: If you were, just for example, if it was just
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 4: David Sanchez Morales, okay, he's the bad apple, for example. Okay.
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 4: He's the one guy who's got a hard-on for Kennedy
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 4: for whatever reason and decides this motherfucker needs to go, right?
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 4: So he's not going to tell anybody else because he
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 4: knows that the other people around him are probably CIA
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 4: loyalists and would rat him out in a heartbeat, right?
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 4: Or there's a possibility that that would happen.
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I, I agree. I'm just saying like, now chances.
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 4: Are, let me finish my thought. Chances are that Morales
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 4: would have a close knit crew of his own people
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 4: that he knows operators that may have had some ties
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 4: with CIA operations in the past, may not have, um, but,
• 2:07:07
  Speaker 4: but aren't necessarily part of the CIA proper, right?
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 4: These are, you know, assets, paid assets. Um, Things like that.
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 4: So you would think that, ideally, all you would need
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 4: is one person like Morales to gather a group of
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 4: individuals together that he knew or he felt had the
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 4: capability to pull something like this off, get away with it,
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 4: and keep their fucking mouths shut.
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 4: So, in reality, you only need one bad apple from
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 4: the CIA proper to go rogue.
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 4: And turn a set of very idealized anti-Castro Cubans into
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 4: Dealey Plaza killers. Right. But you would need good planning.
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 4: You would need, like I said, a plan to execute
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 4: the operation, to get away with the operation, to cover
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 4: up the operation, and to make sure that nobody talked afterwards.
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 5: It would be an extremely small group.
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 4: An extremely small, very experienced, very trusted group of individuals. Right.
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 5: 100%. That's what I mean. And I didn't mean like
• 2:08:25
  Speaker 5: CIA proper, maybe I misspoke, but like when you talk about,
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 5: like you said, people with connections to the CIA could
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 5: have forced the kind of cover-up that ensued even if
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 5: it wasn't CIA proper operation, which I don't I agree
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 5: with you. I don't believe it was.
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 4: Right, but there still would be a need for a
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 4: cover-up if they thought that some anti-Castro Cuban exiles who
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 4: had previously been associated with certain things that could be
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 4: tied back to the CIA were found to be implicated
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 4: in this thing, right?
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 5: Right. Like the DRE, for example. Right.
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 4: Exactamundo! Exactamundo.
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 5: Ah, well... You know, there's so much to dig into
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 5: in regards to JM Wave. There's so many shady characters
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 5: that we know very little about. There's this guy, Bob Moore,
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 5: that David Boylan asked me to request documents on. I
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 5: got some documents. They didn't really lead to anything. There's
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 5: just not a lot of documents on a lot of
• 2:09:37
  Speaker 5: these guys. But we're going to dig deeper in Members
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 5: Only on Wednesday and... definitely a fascinating subject for sure.
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 4: A lot of these guys, they just, they lived under
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 4: the radar, right? You know, they, they came in and
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 4: did their job and went quietly. And, uh, you know,
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 4: just to show you something here from Thomas Clines.
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 4: This is his gravestone.
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 4: And this is the guy that worked directly under David
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 4: Sanchez Morales. He was, uh, the guy who handled day-to-day
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 4: operations with the Cuban exile groups. This is his very
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 4: simple gravestone. Thomas Gregory Klein, Sergeant, U.S.
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 5: Army.
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 4: And he lived to 2013, Joe.
• 2:10:29
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 4: You know, no mention of the CIA. I mean, nothing.
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 4: Just very basic. And that's ultimately what we... end up with,
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 4: with a lot of these guys who kind of went
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 4: under the radar, worked behind the scenes, the JM wave,
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 4: very important stuff in the, in the, in the lens of,
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 4: you know, the CIA and the history of this country.
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 4: And these very important people like Morales and Clines and Harvey, they,
• 2:11:02
  Speaker 4: you know, they don't get the accolades they should get
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 4: even not necessarily in life, but in death. I mean,
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 4: I talked about it a little bit with E. Howard
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 4: Hunt and how the CIA kind of abandoned him. You know,
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 4: he was.
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 2: E.
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 4: Howard Hunt, dude. He went from military service into the OSS,
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 4: into the CIA, allegedly retired from the CIA in 1970.
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 4: But we all know how that goes. And then when
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 4: he got caught in the Watergate break-in, they were kind
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 4: of like.
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 5: They left him out to dry.
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 4: Yep, they hung him out to dry. So you can
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 4: see why some of his motivations later in life were
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 4: maybe to stick a middle finger up at the CIA,
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 4: you know?
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 4: The whole Liberty Lobby trials.
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 5: Oh, good job.
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 4: Bled him dry, dude. I mean, he could not. I mean,
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 4: the Watergate tapped him financially, right? Then comes that, the
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 4: Liberty Lobby trials.
• 2:12:17
  Speaker 5: I like how you are very careful in your pronunciation.
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 4: Because he actually won the first Liberty Lobby lawsuit for.
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 5: $ 450, 000.
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 4: They appealed. The decision was reversed. So there goes his
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 4: half a million dollars.
• 2:12:39
  Speaker 3: Damn.
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 4: And then in 2000, when there was a deal on
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 4: the table for his life story from Kevin Costner for
• 2:12:46
  Speaker 4: $ 5 million, Kevin Costner wanted to buy his entire story
• 2:12:51
  Speaker 4: and his book, his autobiography that had just come out,
• 2:12:54
  Speaker 4: for $ 5 million. But Costner wanted the story of the
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 4: JFK assassination for $ 5 million. And E. Howard Hunt told
• 2:13:05
  Speaker 4: him to get the fuck out of his house. So,
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 4: you know, who knows what to believe with these CIA guys.
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 4: It's crazy.
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 5: It is. It's a very murky, shadowy world. And I
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 5: think we've really only touched the surface on what was
• 2:13:31
  Speaker 5: going on at JM Wave. I don't think we'll ever
• 2:13:34
  Speaker 5: really know. It's just a crazy thing. Crazy Time. Let
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 5: me put it that way.
• 2:13:44
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. Liberty Lobby Lawsuit. That's a tough one. Thanks, Chuck.
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 4: And I did screw it up in the St. John
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 4: Hunt book episode. So if you want a good laugh,
• 2:13:59
  Speaker 4: feel free to go there and watch it. Cheap plug
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 4: for the book review. Actually, I fucked it up twice
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 4: in that small period of time. I was... I slowed
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 4: down today and I very deliberately said Liberty Lobby. I
• 2:14:15
  Speaker 4: was so proud of myself today. I did it. But
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 4: it's when I'm not thinking and I say it fast
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 4: that I jack it up. You know what I mean?
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 5: Well, you're not the only one who has done so.
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 4: Mouth run before brain sometime.
• 2:14:29
  Speaker 5: Hey, I know how that is. Yes. And John, yes,
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 5: we are riding the JM wave today.
• 2:14:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, so to take away everything and to
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 4: wrap it up, were some of these operators who came
• 2:14:47
  Speaker 4: in and out of, and like I said, they weren't
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 4: all there all the time for the entire duration of
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 4: the Miami station. A lot of these guys came and
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 4: went and did other things. It's just a very interesting
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 4: place in CIA history. And I believe now it is
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 4: the Museum of Of Miami Maritime History?
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 4: Am I making that up, Joe?
• 2:15:17
  Speaker 5: No, you aren't. There is a museum there that is
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 5: dedicated to the Cuban exiles. I don't even know exactly
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 5: what it's called.
• 2:15:27
  Speaker 4: I don't know that it's dedicated to the Cuban exiles.
• 2:15:33
  Speaker 4: Hang on.
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 5: All right, Jamie, let's go.
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 4: God damn it. Okay, here we go. It is the
• 2:15:43
  Speaker 4: Miami-Dade Military Museum, preserving and presenting South Florida's rich military
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 4: heritage to inspire and educate future Americans. Right? So starting
• 2:15:56
  Speaker 4: in 1942, the World War II, or in World War II,
• 2:15:59
  Speaker 4: the Navy built it as headquarters for a naval air
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 4: station in Richmond, Florida. It was a blimp base that
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 4: fought Nazi U-boats that were attacking Florida shores.
• 2:16:12
  Speaker 5: I thought you were going to say Nazi UFOs.
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 4: I almost did. Did you know that Nazi U-boats were
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 4: attacking Florida shores?
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 5: I do know that they were attacking vessels on the
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 5: East Coast, not specifically Miami, but yes.
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, from this building. Also, 61 to 69 during the
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 4: Cold War, it was CIA station JM Wave, headquarters for
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 4: freedom fighters of the anti-Castro Cuban exile community, including Brigade 2506,
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 4: Manuel Artemes Naval Group, and Operation Mongoose. 1970 to 1985,
• 2:16:50
  Speaker 4: it was the U.S. Army Reserve Center during the Vietnam War.
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 4: home to thousands of local Army Reservists, including the 324th
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 4: Army General Hospital and other MASH units. Interesting. From 85
• 2:17:09
  Speaker 4: to 92, Building 25 was a Marine anti-tank comissile company.
• 2:17:17
  Speaker 4: Went from this building to fight in Operation Desert Storm, Joe.
• 2:17:23
  Speaker 4: And in 2018, it was restored again. And became the
• 2:17:26
  Speaker 4: Miami Military Museum and Memorial. There's a lot of M's there. Okay. Luckily,
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 4: I'm better with my M's than my L's.
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 2:17:37
  Speaker 4: So, you can actually go visit the JM Wave Station
• 2:17:41
  Speaker 4: today if you're ever in Miami. You can go check
• 2:17:44
  Speaker 4: it out. And the building looks much as it did
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 4: in the 60s, just different. a lot better now. It
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 4: was renovated and updated. And you can actually go in
• 2:17:57
  Speaker 4: and see things on the inside, not just the outside.
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 4: So if anybody's near Miami, that'd be a cool place
• 2:18:04
  Speaker 4: to go and visit, Joe.
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know who it was. It might have
• 2:18:08
  Speaker 5: been Mr. Jack Taylor. I think he's, hopefully he's okay.
• 2:18:11
  Speaker 5: He said a hurricane was about to hit him. But
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 5: I believe he was the one, I could be wrong,
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 5: that told me he visited that in the last year-ish.
• 2:18:21
  Speaker 5: But that would be fascinating, and I believe... Yeah, send
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 5: us pictures. I believe Felix Rodriguez, like, speaks there sometimes,
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 5: if I'm not mistaken.
• 2:18:32
  Speaker 4: Rumor has it they prop him up in a rocking
• 2:18:34
  Speaker 4: chair by the front door. As a greeter, like at Walmart.
• 2:18:41
  Speaker 4: Welcome to the Miami Military Museum. Thank you for visiting.
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 4: Have a nice day. May I see your ticket? Thank you.
• 2:18:52
  Speaker 5: We have a comment of the night. I'm going to
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 5: nominate this for Mr. John Lindback. They do not have
• 2:18:59
  Speaker 5: a Johnny Roselli barrel of fun exhibit. Woo! Woo!
• 2:19:06
  Speaker 4: No, but they do have a Bill Harvey dunk tank, allegedly.
• 2:19:11
  Speaker 4: Where there's a fat guy up there, you can throw
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 4: a softball at him and try to dunk him in
• 2:19:14
  Speaker 4: the water.
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 5: Dunk or drunk tank?
• 2:19:17
  Speaker 4: Well, it's a dunk tank into a giant vat of beer, allegedly.
• 2:19:26
  Speaker 4: All right, folks. Thank you so much for hanging with us.
• 2:19:30
  Speaker 4: We hope you learned something. I know we did. Uh,
• 2:19:34
  Speaker 4: talking about this stuff. We'll have part two for you
• 2:19:36
  Speaker 4: next Wednesday. We'll talk about some more J and wave personalities,
• 2:19:41
  Speaker 4: if you will, and, uh, go into a little bit
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 4: more depth about some of these guys and take a
• 2:19:46
  Speaker 4: harsher look at them for sure. Um, should we play
• 2:19:53
  Speaker 4: the video again on the way out? Joe, just for
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 4: people who weren't around to see at the beginning.
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 5: Sure. Let me just, uh, let Ruby say hi before
• 2:20:02
  Speaker 5: we go.
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 4: All right, hurry up. Grab the damn dog. Hey, Ruby.
• 2:20:05
  Speaker 5: If you're a member, you have already seen her haircut.
• 2:20:08
  Speaker 1: Hi, Rob.
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 5: Hi.
• 2:20:11
  Speaker 4: And again, be on the lookout for quick hits live
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 4: in the morning.
• 2:20:17
  Speaker 5: Nice.
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 4: Less than, well, a little more than 12 hours from now. Allegedly.
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 4: Give or take.
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 5: You are a machine, sir. I envy you.
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 4: And be on the lookout for a new Random Research Rambles...
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 4: with Rob intro that might be better than the one
• 2:20:37
  Speaker 4: for this show that I did.
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 5: Oh boy.
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 4: Let's just say Ruby makes a small appearance. I may
• 2:20:45
  Speaker 4: have made it look like I kidnapped Ruby. So be
• 2:20:50
  Speaker 4: on the lookout for the new random research ramblers of
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 4: Rob when he drops. Members get it early. Everybody else
• 2:20:57
  Speaker 4: gets it Monday.
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 5: Wars were started for less.
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 4: Man, I couldn't stop laughing when I was putting that
• 2:21:08
  Speaker 4: thing together and I was like, oh man, what would
• 2:21:10
  Speaker 4: be funny? What would be funny? I was like, oh,
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 4: what if I kidnapped Ruby and kept her chained up
• 2:21:16
  Speaker 4: in my office?
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 5: Chained?
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:21:21
  Speaker 5: That's not nice.
• 2:21:23
  Speaker 4: No, she's not chained. She's there willingly.
• 2:21:27
  Speaker 5: All right. Well, thank you, everyone. We appreciate all of
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 5: you tuning in. Thank you for all the positive comments
• 2:21:36
  Speaker 5: and the 50-plus people that have been in here all night.
• 2:21:39
  Speaker 5: We love you. We appreciate your support. And we will
• 2:21:43
  Speaker 5: see you next week. And if you remember, we'll see
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 5: you sooner. Yes.
• 2:21:46
  Speaker 4: Enjoy the shenanigans of the new Rob and Joe intro
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 4: slash outro video. We love you guys, and we'll see
• 2:21:54
  Speaker 4: you next time.
• 2:21:55
  Speaker 5: Peace.
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Long Gun Man podcast tonight.
• 2:22:35
  Speaker 2: Where the official line ain't right Triple B and Joe
• 2:22:39
  Speaker 2: read line by line Through the black ink.
• 2:22:41
  Speaker 1: On the page Looking past the grassy knoll.
• 2:22:51
  Speaker 2: Oswald walking down the Dallas street, handcuffed to a detective sleeve.
• 2:22:56
  Speaker 2: Jack Ruby steps from the crowded press with a trick
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 2: of a suit jacket sleeve. Redacted documents stacked on the desk,
• 2:23:04
  Speaker 2: thick black lines on every name. They call it an
• 2:23:08
  Speaker 2: open and shut case while they play the same.
• 2:23:32
  Speaker 3: Is it a single shot from behind? Or a rifle
• 2:23:39
  Speaker 3: behind the fence? Take a ride.
• 2:23:44
  Speaker 2: With Triple B and Joby. Nothing here makes any sense.
• 2:23:50
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Lone Gun Man podcast.