Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Spring Series Gems (July - September 2023)

Transcript

What I've Learnt - Spring Series Gems (July - September 2023) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well recognised as one of the world's most respected and sought-after session hairstylists, Kevin Murphy has been at the forefront of fashion, runway editorial, and film for decades.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Within Australia and internationally, his work has graced the covers of all the major global print publications such as Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, Marie Clare, Vanity Fair, Instyle, and the list goes on.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was really the lack of products that performed as needed on shoots and runways that forced Kevin to go beyond conventional hair products and look to advancements being made in skincare and thus Kevin.murphy, the brand, was born.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: He remains at the forefront of an industry he's deeply passionate about, from leading new trends in cut and colour through to developing groundbreaking products that are kind to the environment and the hair.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually not untrue, but it's interesting because you're saying even without children and even, you know, the cost of living is biting someone like yourself.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit about so where did the so obviously you sold the Kevin Murphy products, which are iconic in terms of their design and they've been around forever.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Those beautiful shades, and you know, with the where did that, first of all, that was quite an innovative design.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Was that yours?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Where did it come from?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: How did you come to develop your own brand?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: It came from an idea that what it was was um we were we were trying to be um very conservative.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we wanted less plastic, we wanted less landfill.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I knew that like when you had those round bottles, you know, the round sort of Boston round bottles, well, you buy like a pint of milk and then you buy a liter of milk, and it takes up the same amount of space on the shelf, but one's got double the amount of stuff in it.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: So what it was is the square package gives you less area, more mass, which I know sounds technical sort of thing, but it just means you can fit more into a tinier space using a square bottle than you can using a round bottle.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: So what it meant was we were having less, less, uh, like say 45% less plastic.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: We were getting to put say the equal amount, or if not double the amount of product inside that small bottle.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that small bottle fits into a smaller chipper, which fits into a smaller space, which means less chipping, um, less uh less space on the on the shelf.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it was very neat and compact for your modern bathroom.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: So what I found was um my salon at the time, we had all this beautiful, like it all looked fantastic, but then the bottles were hot pink, and I'm like, well, I don't want a hot pink bottle.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I want a bottle to match my decor as well.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I want nice colours.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to, I don't want to have it screaming at me saying damaged, dry, dull, or lifeless, because that's what all the bottles did.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I don't want to be damaged, I definitely don't want to be dull or lifeless or even limp when I'm in the shower.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I found the messaging was all wrong as well.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I hear you, yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually, because they look very bespoke and boutique, the style of the bottles.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: And we've had those bottles out since I think 2004, which is quite bizarre.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I think we're coming up to our 20th year and they haven't really dated.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they were they weren't perfect straight away.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: We had a lot of problems because we what were the problems, like for example um just the orifice, to tell you the truth, because we wanted it at the bottom, and then having it at the bottom, we thought that it would just be really easy and that everyone would really understand, but not everyone really understood.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm interested to hear you say that because that's one thing that I was going to raise with you was the orifice, which is an interesting thing to be raising, but I was just I was going to raise it because uh it is something that people comment on sometimes is how hard it is to get the product out.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'm I'm glad you've raised it.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've got it out on the table, and I'm very happy about that.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we we have trouble.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we've got two sorts of water.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got one with the oris on the top, one with the oris on the bottom.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: So we thought that we'd be able to have like more squishier sort of plastic, and as it turned out, we couldn't, um, because the plastic tended to swish away and didn't look as nice anymore.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: So all I say to people is um just give it just shake, shake, shake, and then it'll all squeeze out.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you can get everything out of the bottle.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I remember like all of my round bottles, I would have to turn them upside down in the shower, and then when you come in, it's like Skittles and they all like go everywhere, sort of thing.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: So at least these ones you don't have to turn them upside down.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: They also do look very good in the shower, let's be honest.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: They do.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we do have liters as well and half liters that have got a pump on them, so they're much easier.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you do too.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think though, just in terms of it sounds like you put enormous effort and thought into creating this this brand.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Where just talk to me about how so it went from selling in your salon to then being, you know, pretty much everywhere you can get it.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me how hard was that to expand that that brand base.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you've been doing it for what, 25 years?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Long time.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Even if it's sort of longer.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: So what it was was when I first had my cell, I had Cusco Murphy.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Cusco Murphy was the hair product that we had in there as well.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then what happened was um all of my friends that had salons said, I don't want to buy it because it's got your salon's name, and I don't want your salon's name in my salon.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to go, oh that's they said if you called it Kevin Murphy, then we'd buy it, sort of thing.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to then go, okay, let's get rid of Cusco Murphy and then re-invent myself as Kevin Murphy, sort of thing, which was the only reason I even said use my name, because I never really liked my name.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: I thought also it was really boring, is it's just that that was the last thing that I had, if you know what I mean.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's so interesting.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: I never knew that, and I'm very interested.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: I wondered why it was called Kevin Murphy.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, I thought it was a branding exercise.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't really a branding exercise, it was actually tougher because people said to me that no one knows who you are.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think in the beginning, they're like, Oh, they don't know who they don't know who you are.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, okay, all right, well, then I've got to try and make them know who I am, sort of thing.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I started working for magazines because I knew that the best place I could actually promote a product was to actually go and work for magazines and have the product in my hand and go, hi, yeah, I use this product.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: So then I could pass it to them because I couldn't afford press or PR or anything like that.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: So all I could afford to do was go and work on the photo shoot and then pass the editor the product and hopefully they would put it in.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: And luckily they did.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you certainly worked with some pretty um stellar magazines and publications, which I outlined in the intro.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did you find doing that?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Did you find that they were responsive?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And also, you mentioned, I was reading that you were struggling to find product that you found was good for photo shoots and for runways, etc.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you had that double barrel benefit of you got your product into the sort of fashionista world, but you also got to use good product.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what actually happened was um it was in the 90s, and then everything in the 90s was all about straight, flat hair.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: So all the products were really guided towards straight, flat hair, and everyone had sort of ironed hair.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I came from this sort of like a like a beachy, sexy sort of era where I wanted lots of volume in the hair.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like 80s, yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, supermodel onwards sort of thing.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: So it sort of got from the 80s into the 90s, and it was all about this sort of beachy, messy, you know, very much how I grew up, very beachy, messy hair, yes.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then the people would give you products, like all the products to say, Oh, yeah, but you can only use the tiniest bit, you can only put it on the very, very ends.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Well, how can I change the characteristic of the hair if I can only put something on the ends?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: So what I found was I was going to the makeup artist bag because I looked for the products that she was using, which absorbed really quickly, were really fine and light, and then mine were heavy and greasy.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Well, why hers absorbing and mine are going greasy and staying on the hair, and the hair was greasy by lunchtime?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna try using your body lotion and mix it with hairspray, then I'm gonna try using your toner to make my gel lighter and sort of more watery.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I found I was getting better results using makeup and skincare on the hair than I was actually using hair products.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's extraordinary.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I never knew this.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is very interesting.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I said to a friend who's a biochemist, and I said, Well, how come the makeup stuff works really lightly on the hair, but the hair stuff is really heavy on the hair?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: And they said, 'cause it's a smaller molecule.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Oh, so it's a smaller molecule.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: So that's when I started using skincare on the hair instead of hair care.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where skincare for your hair was born.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's our tagline.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Since about 2008, I think.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: And when I first brought it out, people were like, What's that?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: That means nothing, sort of thing.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, as it turned out, sort of thing, people actually do sort of respond to it because they understand the lightness of skincare can actually be adapted to the lightness of hair care instead.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because you want you don't want product to look like it's in your hair, you want to have like nice, correct, it looks natural, but is doing something.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's true.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I find it quite interesting how technical and scientific you were thinking.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Scientifically, you were trying to sort of understand and you're exploratory and you were innovative in that sense because it wasn't just a branding exercise for you.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, how can I make this product better and how can I ensure that it benefits my client?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really, you know, it's not just about there's no point having a great brand if the product doesn't serve its purpose.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that I always felt sorry for my clients as well, because they'd come in and go, Oh, my hair's fine, I'm limp, I'm lifeless.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd be like, Well, no, your hair isn't like that, sort of thing.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I would always be thinking, how can I make products for them to make their life better?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because people, when people felt beautiful, they were happy, sort of thing.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: When they came in, if they thought they were dull lifeless damaged, they weren't happy, sort of thing.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanted my clients to be happy.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I said, Well, what can I give you that can make it work?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because the stuff that was on my shelves was too heavy and greasy and just not for everybody.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: And not everyone's got massive thick hair.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like most people have got fine hair, they want to get a bit more, but the whole industry was based on this, like, you know, one size fits all, like, you know, it's suitable for all hair types.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Well, how can it be?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because you don't that I I could sit in a room where there were like 50 people and no one would actually have the same hair type.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we're all completely and it's like the same with your skin.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you get a red lipstick, there's a hundred red lipsticks on the market.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, why is there a hundred red?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's just red.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, well, it's not just red because there's many nuances that go along with it.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that hair care in the past had no nuance at all.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was just like you're either colored or you're not colored.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, well, I want my hair's fine and it is colored.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I want fine, I want shampoo for fine hair that's colored hair as well, not in two different bottles.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely makes sense.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's to be honest, it's quite logical.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit of a no-brainer.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of your working with some of your pretty high celebrity clients, you know, talk to me about what are some of the ones that you really enjoyed and loved and found particularly rewarding?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know you've worked with some great models and also musicians and actors.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, it's just been such a long time since I've actually had worked.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is that because of that there's not work around or because of because you're more focused on the product being your source of?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've got too busy to tell you the truth, because when if a celebrity calls, they call you and they go, Can I can you come tomorrow?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: And you're like, Oh, I'm actually I'm somewhere else, sort of thing.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: And the um the industry that I'm in now is they want to book you seven months in advance.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I've got bookings for next March already, sort of thing.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: They don't want to, they don't muck around, sort of thing.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've actually got a booking for next to June and July as well.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: When you say booking, this is for a blow wave and a colour, or what are you doing?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, it's for a um, it would be like for an event sort of thing.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: So now you're like, you know, 300 people, I'm talking to 500 people.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm standing in front of like 1100 people.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: So they're bigger events, and I just you can't just say, Oh, everyone, can you come back another day sort of thing?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: I've got to go and blow over celebrities.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because they want to book, yeah, they have to know they're covered.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and the celebrity is gonna then they don't know, or it like anyone to get their hair done.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you you can't you don't know what you're gonna do during in a month's time.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: Same with the magazines, they don't know what they're doing next week, they can't tell you if they're doing something great.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it just didn't work out, and I had to decide whether I was going to, you know, be a celebrity hairdresser and be at the mercy of someone, or whether I was going to, you know, use something that's that I can make money in my sleep, if that makes sense.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm not money to sleep when you've already got these.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: So what you're just so I'm understanding this, you can talk to me about the celebrities you have worked with and what what who you did really enjoy.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: But what you're saying is over time you realize that to be constantly under that pressure of bookings and events, and you've chosen to exit that or to still take bookings.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, I've chosen to exit that.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's for your own mental health and well-being.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's mainly because you can't be there for them.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: They need you to be there 24-7, and they need you to be available and they need you to be like on your toes, and you can't be thinking about, you know, like someone's saying, I've got these 100 million bottles, they're they're not working out.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: You can't be talking about bottles, you need to focus on the person that you're with.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I understand.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So what you're saying is you can't be a master of all trades because you're trying to do your business, which is your core income and business structure.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then you've got the celebrity aspect, which may have served its purpose for you at a particular time, but it no longer serves you.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think that it did serve me very, very well, and it gave me a great stepping stone, but also opened my eyes that there are bigger and better things that you can do.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that was when I first started doing products, I was like, Well, I can give product to you and you and you and you and you, but I don't have to be doing your hair, I can just give you the stuff, sort of thing.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it was just like a a few lights went on in my head, and I was like, Well, I really should.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: I need to, I need to plan my future because my future is going to die once the celebrity decides that she doesn't really want me anymore or she wants to change, sort of thing.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that they don't like you, or you know, it's celebrated.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's just they move country or they change the way they are, yeah, it could be, or you know, they just they just want to change, sort of thing, and it's really quite a normal thing to do.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: So you can either stay on that merry-go-round.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know that a lot of my friends that I've known when I worked in the magazines, they're still there, sort of thing.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, wow, you're still there.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And thing, the thing is, when you're doing those sorts of jobs, like people ask for options, they're like, Oh, can we get a few more options?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, no.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you've sort of been, let's be honest, you've been there, done that, and there's an element where I suppose you've made a call that it's more practical for you to continue in a as a businessman and to to have your expansion in this direction.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I suppose different people make their choices, but also literally, as you get older, your ability to do that and to cope with those pressures is going to transition anyway, if it hasn't already.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you're being you're you're thinking ahead and going, well, I can't just do 10 celebrities a week and keep doing that and and manage it.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Tell you the truth.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think I was better at making products than it wasn't doing celebrities.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's an important.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, thank God you had the realization.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's important.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe so, tell me a little bit about when you did work with celebrities, who was it that you really enjoyed and who, because they have given you a platform which has probably you know elevated you out into the to the stratosphere of sorts.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'd say, well, you say, well, Kylie Mro would be the first one and the best one because she has got the best taste.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, because a lot of it is like a taste level.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: So when you go in to do a celebrity, they might go, Yeah, I want to look like this, and I'd be like, Oh, do you?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: You sure?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: sort of thing.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: What about if you went like that?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: So then they would be adamant that they that's what they wanted.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: So the good thing about Kylie was she's like, Well, what do you think?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you're the expert, you do what you think is right, sort of thing, and then you say what you're gonna do, and she go, yep, and then we'd have a great day because you're the you're sort of in sync with with people.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think that's a really important thing.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're not always in sync with every single person that you meet.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you've got to be able to, it can't feel like a job, you've got to be able to have fun with these people.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, beyond the formidable combination of chul and lycra, how much can an audience ever truly understand about the demands of being a ballet dancer?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: What really is the pain and pleasure of pointed shoes and jockstropes?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Can a wardrobe malfunction derail a scene?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're about to find out.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: As the wonderful, talented David McAllister AC, former principal dancer and former artistic director of the Australian Ballet, has launched his second book, Ballet Confidential, a personal behind-the-scenes guide in a powerful overview of one of the performing arts most alluring and mysterious, physically demanding and mentally rigorous art forms.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because really, you um were at what, nine or ten when this when this sort of began to bubble up and emerge as something you loved.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Is that would that be right about that age?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's very young.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was I was seven actually when I first decided ballet was the thing.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, my earliest memory from as long as I can remember is is dancing.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, little sort of two-year-old, three-year-old, however long, however old I was, I can't really remember.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: But I just remembered dancing in front of the TV, spinning around.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: I used to tuck tea towels in my um pants that, you know, because when I turned, they'd sort of like spin out.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought that was quite cool.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: I was seven when I saw um a bit of Rudolf Nurev doing Don Quixote.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's when I went, okay, that's what I want to do.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: And it took me a year for to get my parents to agree and send me to a ballet class, and also for them to find a teacher who wanted to teach a little boy too, because it wasn't so common in you know, 1970.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, so that's how I started really.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: So, but it wasn't really until I guess I was probably 10, 11 that I realized that maybe this could be a career.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting too, because you have to be brave and and very strong in yourself at such a young age, but also your parents had to have faith and and go, you know, they it's not like they, as you said, it did take a year to to I suppose convince them.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it is, do you think that's something that you you mentioned?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, lots of people would see, you know, the neureev and go, wow, that's amazing, or we all watch the movies, or the fact that it triggered something so extraordinary in you.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do you believe that is nature or nurture or what?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: What what do you think that is?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: For me, it felt very much like nature.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: I just once I saw ballet and once I started training, it was like, oh my god, my whole world changed.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: And that's exactly what I wanted to do.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I never really had another plan B.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, for as long as I realized that I could actually be a dancer and have a career in that, that was it.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: That was all I wanted to do.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I guess for me, it was someone who Dave Margaret Scott, who was actually the woman who found me in Perth and I I joined the Australian Ballet School.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, first of all, I was found when I was 15, but my parents didn't let me go till I was 17.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and she saw me.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if I didn't dance, I probably would explode.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that's exactly how it felt.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: It was like it was so much a part of who I was.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: Without doing it, I I don't think I could have, I could have, you know, it was my thing.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: That was my whole sort of experience of myself was dancing.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it was it was um great to actually find that thing that I love so young.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think also the fact you're in Perth and you're you know, we're in a sort of, it wasn't like you're in the hub of Melbourne and Sydney.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like you were exposed to that.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so to have the faith, I suppose, do you think that's the essence of?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've interviewed and I work with a lot of creatives, and that I suppose faith and dedication and single-mindedness in the face of a world that often doesn't cultivate it, particularly in young boys.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's quite challenging.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that you found, you know, before you left Perth?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Was that something that you were confronted with?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, look, I mean, you know, I went in after I did my first ballot class and I was in grade two at school.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I, you know, we used to have news in those days where you'd go in and say, you know, what you'd done, or you know, you know, all sorts of things.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: And my news this morning was that I went to ballot class, and it was sort of the beginning of the rest of my life at school, which wasn't so great because you know, I was I was sort of seen as the outcast.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: I was the you know, the rather weird kid because I wanted to be a ballet dancer.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: So in some ways it taught me a lot about resilience because it would have been easy just to go, oh, okay, that's not what you do, so you just sort of walk away from it.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, I was so passionate about it, I knew that's uh I didn't care actually what anyone else thought.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, a lot of the girls in the class were great and really supportive.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: But sadly, two years later I went to an all-boys school, all boys Catholic school.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it was like that would have I was about to say, it's interesting your parents made that choice, but maybe there was that was an educational decision.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it was more the the family.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, my my mother specifically was very, you know, devoted Catholic woman, wanted all of us kids to be, you know, educated in that system.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, in those days, you know, co-education stopped at grade four and you know, supposedly through to year 12.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: But luckily in year 11 and 12, the girls came back.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: So it was a bit of a reprieve.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: But those middle years were just horrific.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, pretty awful, actually.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: So just a little snapshot of what an example of what that experience was like.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think it's really comforting also for other people listening who have children who would like to have creative pursuits.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is a different world, but it is still a challenging world for creatives, particularly in that industry.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: What sort of experiences did you have and how did you deal with them or how did you combat that?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: Look, I think I was really bad at sport.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if I had been one of those kids, it was, you know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Could play football and cricket and do ballet, it might have been easier.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: But I was terrible at all the other sporting achievements.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: So that was sort of a double whammy.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it was just being sort of othered really all the way through school.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I was older, you know, a poof and a, you know, fairy and a faggot before I even knew sexuality and what that meant, you know.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it was only learning behavior from, you know, probably their, you know, families, the boys' families, you know, there was very strong, sort of fairly binary, you know, things for boys and girls in those days, you know.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: And if you stepped outside those very tight um boundaries, you were seen as, you know, weird or strange or just didn't belong.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, in those primary school years, especially, you're desperate to belong.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you just want to be a part of the crew.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, it was pretty weird.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: But I I also think, as I say, I think that taught me that if I was going to do this, I had to be committed to it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I would go to my ballet class pretty much every day, and it would be I was in the alternative universe.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like everyone loved dancing, everyone was friendly, you know, and I was the only boy, so I was a bit of a novelty in a way.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, it wasn't all bad, but school was pretty terrible.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: And the good thing that came out of that, though, is I was sort of in the outcast group, who were usually quite the clever group.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I think I learned more um with my friends who would sort of basically tutor me.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: I was always about a 65% student, you know, I wasn't terrible, but I wasn't brilliant.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I got elevated through that whole experience to be sort of more like a, you know, 75 to 85% student because I had this, you know, little group of friends that used to be really brainy.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you the other thing that I think is interesting about that is really when you get out into the big wide world, it matters in some instances, but not clearly.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't care really when you went to ballet school at 15.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, once you got it, nobody cared whether you had a 65 or 75.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's also interesting because, you know, I mean, I was a creative and I work with a lot of creatives, and the the notion of how you're measured at a very young age is really interesting, isn't it?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that in itself says something about the the sort of parochialism of the education system, but that's a whole other story.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: But to your point, you know, it's wonderful to note that, you know, you stayed true and dedicated and look where you landed, like quite literally landed.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, you pirouetted and landed, right?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it was, you know, it's very inspirational.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so in terms of that nature nurture discussion, I find that interesting too, because you know, you're there's conviction, there's, you know, that what they say, it's 95% um persistence.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't have that passion and that drive, where what were things around you?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: You talk about saying Ureyev, but be it once you moved into that next phase, what was it, who and what did you see that really was made you clear that this was doable?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: I had a great teacher.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um she wasn't probably the greatest dance teacher, but she taught me self-discipline and you know, really focusing on something and being good at it.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I think she also realized that as a boy learning dance, you know, it was I was always going to have to get sort of out of the, you know, the sort of studio system, I guess, you know, that sort of um dance for enjoyment and really be a bit more vocational about it.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: So really from a very early age, she would send me along to do classes with, you know, any guest teachers, especially male teachers like Martin Rubenstein, who was a great RAD or Academy of Dance examiner, and and he did summer schools, and I used to always get sent to those.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: So she she really had a view that, you know, if I was going to be successful, and obviously she must have seen some sort of talent there, that I needed to get out of what I was doing, just you know, with her and have a bit of a broader experience.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess she was a huge mentor to all of that.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then really it wasn't till I got to Melbourne, you know, just turned 17, finished school, that the whole wide world of ballet opened up.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I was at the ballet center in Melbourne, you know, the company were rehearsing there, you know, all of these icons that I'd watched on stage were all of a sudden in the other end of the corridor.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: So it was just like I was in like this um, yeah, this incredible time of just myth busting.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: Everything that I thought was, you know, a ballet career just completely changed.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I saw what the reality of it was, which was probably even more exciting.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: And just, you know, to being myself well beyond what I ever expected I could do was, yeah, it was amazing.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I think to your point, the mentorship is a big part of ballet, it's a big part of the arts anyway, but but clearly that was pivotal for you because somebody saw your talent, saw your dedication, and swooped you up and uh and and gave you the opportunity.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, had you not wanted to embrace that, there's no, you know, that doesn't help.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: But in this instance, there seems to be, I mean, it's a very um beautiful and but also a very serious school to be part of, isn't it?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you really need somebody to be looking out for you and to be guiding you because otherwise I can imagine it's quite daunting.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: And look, you know, there were three sort of very important women, I guess, at that point in my life.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Dame Margaret Scott, who was the founder of director of the Australian Ballet School, who who basically, you know, she kept an eye on me even for the two years I was in Perth after I auditioned, and my parents said that I weren't wasn't allowed to go.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know, she I joined the the school, she was the director, and you know, she really looked out for I mean, all of us, but I mean, she especially was, you know, she for me, she was a great um mentor and continued actually on um after I, you know, while I was dancing and then as director, she was there as a great sort of uh uh incredible font of knowledge.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: And the second was um Dame Peggy Van Prague, she was the founding director of the Australian Ballet, and she worked with us a lot when we were when I was at the school.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: She staged her Giselle and she picked me out to be, you know, quite a lead role as just a you know school student.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: So uh and she was also there along that path.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: And the third was of course Manny Gilgird, who was the director of the Australian Ballet when I joined the company.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I had these three incredible, you know, female, yeah, they were like warriors.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: Guiding lines.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, warriors, absolutely.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so that that was, I mean, how I sort of I think achieved, you know, so much in a relatively short amount of time, just by these incredible, um, strong and knowledgeable women.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting because I one of my questions, I was going to say from Gilgord to Fontaine, you've worked with some of the best, danced with some of the greatest dancers of our time, and who were some of your favourites.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you've just actually mentioned, well, they were mentors, but but there must have been others along the way that you loved dancing with and that you felt connected with and felt inspired by.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Any that stand out over and above those three who were clearly mentor roles?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, look, I think for I mean, I was incredibly blessed to have um incredible women who I danced with all the way through my career.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Elizabeth Tui, who I went to the ballet competition in Moscow, was an incredible partner, and she taught me a lot about how to be a partner, actually.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: Fiona Tonkin, who is an amazing ballerina, um, she was sort of ahead of me, but I was sort of, you know, put with her quite a lot.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, for periods of time, um, Miranda Coney, Vicky Attard, um, I danced with Lisa Balti a bit, um, Linda Ridgway, beautiful dancer who I danced with a lot.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: All of these incredible people who, you know, you learn so much from your partners.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and then later on in my career, I got to dance with Madeline Eastow, and she was a young, young dancer, and I was the old sort of, you know, experienced one.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I mean, it was always such a pleasure to find that connection with someone on stage.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: And and you, I I don't think you ever stop learning.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, even as a director, I learned from the dancers.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, groundbreaking documentary Left Right Hook follows eight female survivors of childhood sexual abuse who participate in a two-year experimental recovery program that combines the physicality of boxing with the emotional power of expressive writing.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: The program provides survivors of sexual assault a space to release their memories, reclaim their bodies, and imagine new lives for themselves.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Through powerful participatory filmmaking, unprecedented access, and full engagement with all of those involved, this feature-length documentary captures an amazing journey of recovery, transformation, and friendship.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me what the boxing did for you, and then how the story or the decision to make a doco about this incredible organization left, right, hook.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's just incredible.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: I find it fascinating.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: It has been a it has been quite a journey.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I guess it's it is important to state that alongside this kind of these mental health challenges, the um the alcoholism and all of that, like I was working and I was functioning as a and you're very respected as a producer and an extraordinary, you know, lecturer.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you've which is quite well that was pre-lecturing, but like I, you know, it was but still like I was educated and I was you know in the film industry, and so you know, I still had an external life, is my point.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so, you know, yeah, and I think, and so this kind of continuum of recovery sort of sat alongside this other life that I'd kind of built.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I started boxing, and again, it was a way to kind of get fit to get the anger out, and then I started fighting.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it was probably I not necessarily the best part of my journey.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was thrown into a ring, you know, within a few months, and I and it was a bit of a laugh to begin, and a bit of a story.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I love stories, I was a filmmaker.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, one fight kind of led to the next fight that led to the next fight, and then that, but that actually led to me losing, and I lost quite a bit.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then as I lost, that's where the empowerment of the boxing began to come become quite disempowered because I was like, see, you're a loser.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can't win, you can't fight back, you know, and it started to reinforce the really negative tapes that were already in my head.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: So eventually I got to a point and I did win one fight, I will say.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was sort of, you know, by that stage, it was like, what am I doing this for?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like and I realized I don't want to be a I'm I I am a fighter, I'm fighting for my life, you know, daily.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Sanity and and and center and to center your emotions.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I must say, I think listening to you also, it sounds almost a little bit punitive what you were doing, is subjecting yourself to this sort of I felt like I was re-traumatizing myself.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and like that I was re-traumatizing myself.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Partly one was to I genuinely wanted, it was like if I won that would prove something, um, like a thing of beating the abuser, which was imaginary and kind of false.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also to I think I genuinely was sort of like really wanting to find a connection to my body and mind.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And what was happening in the ring is I was genuinely dissociating.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it was quite dangerous.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um very dangerous, um, physically and mentally.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Physically and mentally.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I got myself kind of out of that and I said, look, I don't want to, I'm, and I'm, and I'm, you know, by that stage, I was in my mid-30s.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like I was, you know, on a career to be a fighter.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that wasn't why I was doing it.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, why am I actually doing boxing?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Why am I doing boxing?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing it because actually the empowered movements of the training is genuinely really, really uh wonderful for me.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was the bit that I knew I was good at.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was good at the training, I was good at the practice of it.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: But because I didn't feel like a winner, I didn't have these belts under me, these trophies.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, well, I can't like go out and work with other women like me to sort of give share this gift because I don't feel like a winner.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do that's different?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I began to bring in my arts journey and a different modality.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I introduced creative writing into the first hour of the program.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then in this, and so we would come together as survivors, because that was really important to me.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was looking for community dev.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was looking to meet other women who had been through an experience like me, and I wanted to, we I wanted to connect.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we wrote, we write to a prompt, we share, and then I teach them boxing.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so, therefore, it's not about being a great boxer, it's not even about being a great writer, it's about expressing ourselves and coming together in community.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the beginning of a grassroots project that I went, oh geez, that would actually make a really good film.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it certainly does.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it it it's quite a riveting story to watch.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is an incredible, and the fact what I actually like is the way you've taken what you do have, your incredible skill set, your producing, your writing ability, combined with your physicality and your, I mean, whether it's gym or boxing or this is your modality, as you say, but the fact that you've you you've grabbed both of those, as I call it, and the things in your toolkit, you know, I always say to people, what's in your toolkit when you're dealing with trauma?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: What is it that actually helps you on your path?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: You manage to find those two things and bring them together.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: How did the program emerge and how hard was it to film?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because you had to get a lot of permissions, and we know about permissions because we do not know.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a big thing to, you know.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because I was at the so I ran it twice in a grassroots setting.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was testing it, very low stakes, and it was very easy.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: The core, sorry, just you were testing the core program and very, very low cost, um, small group of people that I just advertised in the local newspaper and on Facebook, you know, got a bunch of people.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I recognized, oh, geez, this power, this is a powerful program.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, because I was at the University of Melbourne, and by that stage I was near to the end of my PhD.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd begun to think more like a researcher.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, uh, I should bring this into the University of Melbourne and research this, you know, let's see actually, is the program effective on people's mental health and well-being?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the first step for the documentary.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: We we got a little bit of seed funding for like a creativity and well-being um funding round.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: We tested the idea, we brought in a psychologist, a gender expert to measure the program on people's resilience.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we thought we'll we'll we will also film that, which will then become part of potentially a documentary.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: So the participants we got in knew exactly what they were coming in for.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: We had to get ethics approval.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was about to say that very transparent around the process, knowing that we we, in a sense, we couldn't be fully transparent because we were like, we're gonna film this.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know what this actually actually is.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: We genuinely don't know what the documentary is or where it will go.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: But if you sign up for this, kind of just be prepared for a journey, you know.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: And also you had to you had to validate who your guests and subjects were.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: And um we and so we we had we had eight women and um they remained with us.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um now, two weeks into that program, by the way, Deb, was 2020, COVID hit.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: So two weeks of filming, we're in a gym, we're doing the psychological data and everything at the, you know, trying to get this.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Two weeks, COVID hits, we have to pivot online.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Of course we do.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it was a blessing in disguise because what it meant was that we did measure the program over eight weeks.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Six of those was in our bedrooms and our lounge rooms, so online.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the results were a reduction in PTSD depression and stress, and an increase in personal agency and resilience.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the testing of the program was like, oh, this is effective, the data proves it.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: But we continue, we said to like our filming is compromised.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: So will you continue to work with us?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so we ran three programs in 2020.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: But what that meant was that we ended up writing an incredible body of writings.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so because it was online.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because it was online, and so we we wrote, we boxed, and we we wrote, and I said, look, you know, this is going to make a really terrific book.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't we write a book?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we did.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we wrote a book and said, and then we said, now we need to continue this documentary.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: So this whole journey with this group of survivors has lasted two and a half years of what started out as an eight-week program, which is pretty incredible.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty incredible, and also the bravery, the transparency, the courage to not only go on this journey for these people, but for you as well to, as a producer and and as a creator, to have faith, because you, as you said, you really didn't have a roadmap and you didn't know really where you were going, and because until the research, the research bore fruit, in effect, yeah, um, it could have gone anyway.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: So just sort of understand the two weeks of boxing prior to the COVID online situation.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: How did what was the measure in the six weeks when you're online?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Was it the writing that was the main measure?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or did you because obviously you couldn't box in those six weeks?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was actually it was well, it was both.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: The first was a psychological data based on you know, so a psychologist coming in with their particular measures, right?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we did a thematic analysis of the writing as well, which brought out themes of belonging, empowerment, um, community, a better sense of self, making meaning.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so so we looked at it in a really um multimodal way.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we weren't just interested in one particular baseline measure.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, which in a way that was the blessing that you're referring to.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: It allowed you to access things that you may not have otherwise had you been in the boxing space fully for that eight weeks because it gave you other things to mention.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in terms of this film, this documentary is going to be screened as part of the Melbourne Film Festival, is that right?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: In 2024.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: In 2024, good.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we need to know that because that gives people an opportunity to watch it.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's the is that the main space that it's going to be available?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think kind of like any documentary, you know, it will premiere at the film festival, it will go on its own roadshow, we'll have then event screenings.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we will um, you know, a really large part of a documentary like this is its social impact campaign, raising awareness of the issue, driving people to the program, which then takes us onto a charity that I've now set up uh to prepare for that.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a light, so we've got a pro so we've got programs that we can deliver to people who want to do them after seeing the documentary.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty much another element that's come out of the project.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, then of course you've got uh, you know, eventually it will probably hopefully end up on, you know, a network uh or stand or something like that.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it it really is quite groundbreaking.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: And also a question for you.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: What was it like working?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously you've worked with actors, as I know, because you've produced, but what was it like working with with um the reality space and the documentary space and these people having to nurture, protect, but also in a sense, um, allow them to be real and and not was that quite hard to like how you know, in terms of your editing and your producing, and how difficult was that to, you know, because you were trying to protect them because they're part of your story, but you're also trying to showcase their journey.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it constantly revealed ethical uh considerations.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think putting I I think the decision, I needed to put myself in the documentary.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I recognize that.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I I that's probably the least comfortable part of the process.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in some respects, I I don't want to be on camera, I don't like that.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I knew I needed to make myself equal and vulnerable, just as they were.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think by doing that, that allowed the um trust uh to be built.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, of course, we had our director, our writer director, and a producer, Shannon Owen, who was you know absolutely instrumental in that piece.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we we really were.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hard to give the participants as much agency as possible about their representation.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: So at every point, they were, we gave very clear information.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: They always had a decision to opt out.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: There was no sense of like people being filmed in a voyeuristic way.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: We were very clear, you know, we weren't making married at first sight, you know.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: A relational, observational, um, and meant to be kind of emancipatory, the experience of making.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it was dialogic.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: It was um we we did it in conversation um and uh and through through careful consideration.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what happened was that I mean, I I was I've been genuinely surprised at the commitment of the participants.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I was one of them, I would probably have it ages ago.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um that says something, but doesn't it?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: For some reason, we just happened to pick a handful of people who were so deeply committed to the process.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that I I'm not sure whether even Shannon and I were fully involved in that.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think it it came from them.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was organic and it became a yeah, an organic connection, is what you're saying.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, of course, I think we created a framework where they felt held throughout that process.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that they feel that.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that everyone felt deeply committed to the process of um of exploration.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I'm I I think that came from them.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really important to acknowledge that.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really important too.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: You can create those environments, but ultimately too, they need to be the ones, people need to be the ones that make the decision to go along the journey.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the bit that for some reason we were very, very just blessed to have people that uh had arrived at that place.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I do, I think it does reflect your producing and your directing with Shannon, but but also for you, what was the impact of seeing this film come to fruition?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Which I know how hard it is to get made, funded, developed, produced.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: How I mean, you must be sitting there like it's like having a baby, yeah?
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's like giving birth.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't had a baby, uh, so I do know this, but I think it is very much like your baby because you have no, no, no, absolutely.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I think it's just, I mean, it's been an incredible journey.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's been um, I mean, it's been really beautiful.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have raised a lot of money for this film.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we've done that through bringing in project partners.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like if Shannon and I had done this in an indie way, which we would have, but we didn't.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: We managed to get like Sweet Shop and Green production company, um, who then activated Screen Australia, Vic Screen, Melbourne International Film Festival, Premier Fund, you know, on and on, um, distribution, bonsai.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so this is a premium um product.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that has been probably the most exciting part of it because this is a really, really difficult story.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's basically a bunch of women who have been sexually abused as children.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something that you're going to rush to the cinema and go and see, right?
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: These are difficult, complex topics and subjects, and usually gets relegated to um uh scurring for money.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, absolutely true.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because of because of the subject matter.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel really, really proud to have been part of um a film where we are elevating the topic, um, and we're actually what we've done is we've given it a level of self-esteem.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that then indirectly gives the participants a level of self-esteem.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: That and again, not to say that you know that everyone gets self-esteem through other things, but it says to them, you're worth it.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: We believe you.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're not gonna get a micro-most for listening.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly, with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: Love deck.