Latest / Art of the Question / The Secret to Speaking With Confidence - Caroline Goyder - #33

Transcript

The Secret to Speaking With Confidence - Caroline Goyder - #33 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: First of all, I was ⁓ interested in how did you become interested in ⁓ communicating well and ⁓ speaking with confidence. I think I fell in love with speaking r really by chance. What I loved really at the beginning was words. I studied English literature and I lakes and poetry and all of that good stuff. So I went to university to learn about that. And almost by chance I found myself at drama school and I remember looking up at the notice board and seeing we had acting classes, but we also had a lot of voice and movement. And I it it's crazy to say that I was really surprised by that. I hadn't really thought I thought acting was a kind of brain thing somehow, which was so dumb. ⁓ But as it turns out, I kind of fell in love with the voice and movement side, 'cause that was where the real change was possible for me. And I think the fact I hadn't even realized it was a class was because I had no idea why voice and movement was so important to us. I'd never I'd never grasped that principle. Glad I did. So how how is ⁓ how is it related to to communication and and speaking with confidence, the the movement part of things? So we speak from the whole body. We it it's interesting in the The world we're in right now, because a lot of copywriters and speech writers are moving into speaking. But ⁓ like me, they come from a very intellectual place. They come from a place where words are primarily a product of thought. And what the ancient Greeks knew is that speech is a physical act. It requires the body, the breath, the emotions. It's why Aristotle talks about ethos, logos and pathos. And I think we've become such an intellectual, screen bound society. That we forget the speaking is more like sport. It's a flow state. It's an engagement with other people in the space. It's a response to the moment. It's not an intellectual act. The intellect happens in the prepping. In the moment, it's physical. Right. And would you say there is kind of a renaissance going on with social media where ⁓ lots ⁓ of people are seeing how valuable it is to build personal brands and to convey their message through video, which automatically makes speaking and presenting yourself with confidence a very important part of the equation. Would you say that it's it's on the rise again? I would say so I think there's a pincer, isn't there, which is that AI there's so much AI slop, isn't there? That you you can produce something so quickly and glibly that is actually quite soulless in writing. So then there's a value in the human voice, because for the moment I think we still know when it's an AI voice that may change. And so the there's a I think the biggest value now is actually being in the room. I think what I'm seeing as a speaker coach is that people are really loving conferences and the chance to hear from speakers live, because then I think we value the voice through video and through the branding piece. But what we really value now is someone in the room with us because that changes our emotional state. It it shifts how we feel about the world, not just what we think. Right. But I think, I mean, I completely agree with you. At this point in time, we can kind of tell, but I also feel like there's a counter movement going on where The internet is currently filled with AI slop. You see it on YouTube, you see it on Instagram, you see it on LinkedIn, ⁓ when people are writing their their posts, for example. Just just very generic awful language, to be to be quite frank. Like it's absolutely soulless. Yeah. Absolutely soulless. But I do also see an optic I I can't remember which book it was, but I recently opened a new book and one of the first Things that I read was this book was written by a human. And I see all these YouTube thumbnails of people that put in the thumbnail no AI ⁓ is used. So I do feel like people are making a lot of A sl AI slot because it's easy in the hope to to make some money out of it. But I also feel like there's a large group of people who still value human voices, if you will. Absolutely. And I think increasingly it's like ceramic pottery. You know, it's the value is the human in the room. And there's a paradox, which is that during COVID, people got out of the habit of speaking live to an audience. And I don't think I I don't think it's ever fully recovered. I think people are still nervous about standing on a stage or walking into a big room. But I think that's something For everybody to learn how to do because it's the differential. It's gonna be the thing that allows you to stand out as you know a real human in a world where quite soon it's gonna be really difficult to tell. Right. And have you seen that statistic ⁓ that ninety percent of Gen Z is afraid to have conversations on the phone? And they were the COVID generation, weren't they? They, you know, they've been really harmed by a a period in our history where everybody shut down. I think that was very damaging and I and I would I hope that they overcome that. I really hope that we help them to realise that a a a voice to voice is a really it's the most powerful way to communicate because you get a feeling of what someone's feeling. You can respond to that. Whereas written communication is so devoid of the real stuff. You can't ever really know what someone's feeling through writing. Right. Yeah, so a lot of the nuances are are lost when when word ⁓ words are are are written down. So if we're talking about communicating and speaking with confidence, ⁓ why do you think it's so important to yeah, communicate properly and to be able to have a confident voice? Most people have interesting thoughts in their head. And ⁓ many of those thoughts are worth sharing with the world. What happens for a lot of people is that they get nervous about sharing it, they feel their voices shaking, they feel that they get they get hit by fight or flight, they're thinking too fast, people stop listening to others in fight or flight. And in in those moments where we're hit by adrenaline and we're hit by fight or flight, the great thoughts that we have in our head get blocked. And the great connection we could have with others gets blocked because our whole system's really just shutting down. And I just think if everybody was able to self-regulate and trust their voice and listen well and then speak well, I think we'd move forward as a species a bit more. Yeah. No, I agree. I think there is I can think of a scenario where it wouldn't help you to be able to speak. in a better way. Whether it is having a dinner, a casual dinner with friends, whether it's presenting at work, whether it's just having a conversation at the coffee machine at work, right? Whether it's communicating with s someone that you're ordering from, like every single scenario, if you are able To present yourself well and communicate clearly, it'll work in your advantage. Do you agree? So much so. And I and the biggest barrier for most people is that they think in those moments where they're visible, in any of those scenarios, people often get worried about their own impact. They worry about how they're showing up. They're they've got imposter syndrome or they're self-criticising something stupid they said. And actually that's the wrong focus. The focus when you're communicating in any of those contexts should be the person you're talking to. And most people aren't noticing the things you're worrying about because they're worrying about themselves. And I think for i if we could just get that message out to the Gen Z that the secret to great speaking is to focus on the other person and be regulated. I mean, how easy is that, really? But if you don't know it, you spend a lot of your time looping around, ⁓ I'm an idiot, I said the wrong thing, they don't like me, this is going wrong. And that's such a prison to live in. That's it's exhausting. It stops you. It does. And I think a really important part of why we like to spend time with people or or have interesting conversations with people is not necessarily what they say or do, but it's how they make us feel. So Yeah, so if if all the I I I can't remember I can't produce the the quote exactly, but I believe ⁓ it was a woman who was in the room with two very esteemed like I believe one of w there were two presidents, one of them was a current president and and another one and I believe she said something along the lines that one of them was the most interesting person in the world and the other one made her feel like she was the most interesting person in the world. And I think that's so important. And it directly ties into what you say about listening to the other person and trying to put yourself in in their shoes. How how do you do that? I go back to Aristotle with his ethos, logos on pathos, and I think that so often where we go wrong is we think it's like you've said, Julius, all it's all about saying the clever thing. My feeling with good speakers, as in that example, is that they're more tapped into pathos feeling. And they kind of feel their way into a conversation. Like when I think about I'm an introvert, I shouldn't be good at talking to new people. But rather than thinking I have to impress this person, I come back to my felt senses. I come back to how am I breathing? How am I feeling? I just take a moment to get myself really regulated and present. And then I just get really curious. I'm I mean, I'm genuinely curious about everybody. And I think if we just sit with a calm, regulated system and a feeling of curiosity, and if we ask open questions that really say to the person, I find you fascinating, we can't help but have a great conversation with anybody, like anybody anywhere. It's really as easy as that. And obviously you're not grilling them and there's a kind of reciprocity. They might then ask you a question, but the focus is always to be curious. It's as simple as that. That's a good starting point. And when we before we start talking about how to be a good communicator, I think it might be helpful to to inverse it. So what makes someone a a bad communicator? ⁓ when does someone sound insecure? Ooh, that's interesting. So my first principle of any of this work is that everybody has a great speaker within. So I don't think anybody is per se a bad communicator, but what I would say is that there are some real blockers. ⁓ the first blocker a psychotherapist would recognise it's the n it's the needing to be better than, it's the needing to impress, it's the needing to show off. It's it's the feeling that I and I a as a woman in conversation, you often notice that there I'm not gendering it massively, but you're often at a dinner, sitting next to someone, can be a woman, can be a man, and they just want to talk at you. And it's making them feel better because they're telling you exciting things about themselves. And for me, that's a blocker is a great conversation. Cause I think communication is conversation. Even with a big I was in front of 250 people on Tuesday, and that's still a conversation for me as a speaker. So that's a blocker. There's another blocker at the kind of other end of the continuum, which is someone's really, really anxious. And we've kind of touched on it before. Someone who's anxious and feeling very self critical. And there's often a physical tension in the body. Their jaw might be tight, their breath is tight, and there's a sense that they're feeling very nervous about this interaction. And that's a blocker to great speaking because it makes other people feel nervous around you. They worry for you. And a really great ⁓ communicator will help you with that. They'll they'll co regulate you. They'll bring you off the anxiety. But a lot of people aren't reading that level of depth of nervous system. And I think those those are the big ones for me. Really, really nervous, which takes you away from your audience. And really, really needing to impress, which is also a kind of hiding. Right. And what happens when we when we get very nervous? How does that show in a conversation when someone is super nervous? You c I mean you can think of the autonomic system as having two sides really. There's fight or flight, and there's rest and digest. And in rest and digest. I mean the system is always dancing a little bit. It's never one or the other. There's always a kind of flow of information in the system. But if we're in fight or flight, my voice gets a bit flat because my system's figuring basically run away, punch them, freeze, hide under the table or fawn. And so my voice gets flat, my speech gets staccato. The most important thing is I start filtering for threat. So unconsciously, my system is looking for where's the exit, who do I punch? And that creates a kind of armored quality in a speaker. I mean in corporate life it's everywhere, right? A lot of people operate from that state all the time. And it's not a bad thing if you've got a big pitch or, you know, you've got difficult sales targets, but it's it's a place that makes others feel quite dysregulated. It stresses other people out too. And on the other side of the nervous system, you've got rest and digest where we are when we hang out with our loved ones, with our friends. And in really good spaces at work. And there we're filtering for connection. Our eyes are relaxed. Our voice has music. And really importantly, when someone else smiles, we smile. There's a kind of flow of information between two nervous systems that feels really quite therapeutic. It's enjoyable. And I I really would love the whole world to know that if you hate public speaking, it's probably just that you've spent too much time speaking from the sympathetic nervous system, fight or flight. And the journey is not I have to be a good public speaker. It's how do I find the person I am with my oldest friends? When I'm having a great chat with my friends, what's that like? What if I could do that on stage in front of 8,000 people? That's the secret. It's nothing actually more than that. And the Greeks were kind of I mean, you know, speaking in the ancient world was was a high jeopardy act, but the Greeks intuitively understood that the body was the key to that. I think because they were so much more embodied. Right. And if so if we flip it around and and what makes someone someone a a good communicator, are there are there any examples of people who you think are great communicators? ⁓ and and who are they and and why do you think they are so good at conveying a message? It's interesting. Ten years ago I think it was easier to answer that question. I well, I think two things. Our politics is so fractured at the moment that I think I just see dysregulation in most political voices. And ⁓ perhaps that's deliberate because they want a dysregulated audience. And I think the people coming through social media, for me, they're not great speakers either, because it all feels quite polished and surface and very much in the visual. It's about how they look. And I'm not hearing great voices. And I you know, I go back to s like David Attenborough, I think, in this in in Britain is for me a really wonderful example of someone who loves what he's talking about. He's absolutely passionate about it, he's incredibly knowledgeable, his voice is an instrument that really conveys that passion, and he he has the ability to be concise in something complex. And it saddens me, or Richard Feynman, you know, as a scientist, like That's that's a similar quality with I mean more complexity. The guy, you know, w had a a brain the size of a planet. But he could talk about the beauty of a flower and make it simple for someone with no physics knowledge. And and I need a woman as well. I think Brene Brown is an example of someone who brings real heart to what she does and also a real grounded authority. But they're not recent voices, and that kind of annoys me, you know. Yeah. And And you mentioned ⁓ w w what what makes them special is is part of what you said is they are passionate about what what they're what they're talking about. So there's the the passion aspect, but it also is being able to convey a complex message in a way that is easy to understand for a general audience. How I I completely agree that that is so important. I I think there's a saying if you can't explain it in simple terms, then you don't really understand it yourself, ⁓ which I think is is very, very true in in at least in in most cases. do Is it why is it so difficult to to say something in an easy way? Because I used to work for the Dutch news, right? And and one of my jobs was to ⁓ write for the for the website, and we have a very general audience, so everything needed to be pretty pretty simple. But then another job I had was to write the text for the teleprompter so that the news anchors ⁓ would read out loud for the for the broadcast, right? And when we had to write the text for the teleprompters it had to be even simpler. So usually I'm I would have to go back and back and back. And every single time sometimes I would look at it and think this is as as simple as it gets. And then someone who is more experienced would come up and say, Hey Julius, like it's it's getting better, but why did you use that word? Why why wh why don't we use This word. It's it's pretty ⁓ it's the same meaning and and it's so incredible. I I remember seeing like every single time that I went through that text, it got simpler and simpler, but it got better too. Like it was it was more concise, it was more effective, but it's so difficult. It's it's it's a skill. So why do you think it's so difficult and what what what can we do to practice this? Simplicity's just the key to great speaking. ⁓ as it is as simple as that. It is a superpower. And as you say, I mean I studied English and in English literature you talk about the art of the pracy. And when I look at good speakers, it's really I mean in the way that a teleprompter is really poetry. Very short sentences. Each word is working really hard. There's no filler, there's no repetition. It's the product of deep thought. And I think what most people get wrong is that speaking is something that happens powerfully in the moment. Ma maybe it does sometimes. In a conversation like this, that's what's happening. But usually behind that is a deep iceberg of someone really thinking about it, really getting to understand what it is at its essence, and then understanding how to communicate that. And that takes time. It's not an instant thing. And I think that's frustrating in an age that's moving really fast. But I mean David Attenborough's taken eighty years to get this good, right? You know? Yeah. No, he he he he he does have some some practice under his butt. What's the what's the quote again? I I would have I don't know who said it, but ⁓ I believe it's something along the lines of ⁓ I would have written you a shorter ⁓ if I had more time I I I would have written you a shorter I'm butchering this, but you you probably maybe you know. Yeah, yeah. Well I only had time for for a long ⁓ long one. Something like that. I'm I'm butchering it. But ⁓ so it's it's the ability to convey A complex message in simple terms is important. What are some other traits that make someone a a good communicator? I think this works on virtual calls and in the room. There's something about great speakers that they're able to really read the room. And I think about it like driving in difficult city traffic. There's a kind of you know where you're going as a speaker, but then there's something that happens in the room which is i it's a response to that moment. And so the audience know that you have a plan as a speaker, but they also know that you're not just walking on stage and delivering a speech, because that's really boring. It's one it's one direction, it's a download. And the speakers that I'm interested in. Have a plan, but then they get into the room and they they dance, they respond to the audience like a driver in hectic traffic. And it's it's like the the way we know this is powerful is you know when the technology drops in a at a conference and the speaker suddenly doesn't have any slides, and the audience's attention spikes. Because suddenly rather than somebody remembering a speech that they wrote and reading it from their boring slides, they have to improvise. And that's when as humans we really engage 'cause it feels alive. And I think things that feel alive to a plan, like great stand up comedy, great music, a great artist at a gig, that's what we want. We want that aliveness. And it's high jeopardy. And that's why it's that's why it's exciting for an audience. Yeah. And let's talk About ⁓ the the gravitas method. It's a method you you developed. It is a formula, I believe. ⁓ I'm very curious to know ⁓ how you came up with it and also would like to go pretty deep into it and and dissect every part of the formula. I started to think about gravitas because I was being asked by corporate clients mainly. They would say to me, We've got this leader. She or he is great. They're very clever. They're great at what they do. But when they speak to an audience, they don't have enough gravitas. They don't have enough presence. And so they're not making the impact we need. They're not getting their great thoughts out there. And I was coaching, I knew what to do because it's how you help an actor have more presence. But I hadn't I needed to codify it for myself because and for my clients because a framework really helps people. It makes it less nebulous. It makes it easier to action. And I w I'm very open about the fact that I went back to Aristotle. And although he's talking with ethos, logos and pathos about writing a speech in terms of what makes a great speech, actually those three things, your logos, your logic, your ethos, your character, your values, and your pathos, your passion, are really powerful. So that gave me knowledge plus passion plus purpose. Purpose being a common purpose, which is for the good of everybody, rather than your personal charisma, your personal gains. Cause I think that we know as an audience if someone's in it for themselves. And we don't really warm to it. And then, as I've been told many times, because I spend a lot of time with engineers, then I had that little equation and I added minus anxiety and most engineers will say that's not an equation and I'm like, Well, you know, I'm an English graduate. But it in fact, 'cause I wrote that book in twenty fourteen and in the in the interim, what's happened is that people are more anxious. You know, that things have gotten more uncertain, more ambiguous, more destabilizing. So actually the minus anxiety has become even more important than it was when I wrote it. And how we handle uncertain times, uncertain moments as speakers and stay calm and regulated is the most important thing now I would say. Yeah. And if we you you mentioned that you believe everyone can potentially become good at public speaking and in communication in in general. If we look at the different ⁓ parts of the formula, so what do you usually see when someone comes to you? And how can each of those elements of the formula be improved if we make it practical? I mean, I I think each coach is sent a certain I was talking to another speechwriter last night and he was saying, I get these kind of clients. And I was saying, Well, I get these kind of clients. And I think because I'm an introvert, the people who seek me out are often introverts as well. So in my coaching, there are certain patterns, and one of the patterns is that. Someone will come to me who's a real technical specialist in their field. And they often are doing something which you can either call dawn of time, by which they start at the beginning of a problem and explain the whole thing and kill the audience by the end. Or you can also call it talk to think. They start talking and as they talk, they're reformulating the idea, so they just keep going. And often with those clients, there's a few things that we need to do within the gravitas equation. So first I need to say to them, Yeah, you have loads of knowledge here. But giving the audience all of it is not the secret to success. And so they have to really step into the shoes of the audience and think about t I mean, you know exactly how to do that as a journalist. How do I find the hook for this story? What's the so what? Why should an audience read beyond line three? Well, for speakers that's also really important, because they can just go check their phones, can't they, if they're in a room. So that's the first bit. Frame it from the audience perspective, get the so what, step into their shoes, let go of your knowledge. Then they often need to get out of their heads. So the next bit is passion. They need to have more fun. They need to play because no matter how serious something is, the best speakers, and that's Richard Feynman, isn't it? The best speakers can Bring a kind of lightness to it, bring and really bring an enjoyment. It's kind of brio or sprezzatura in Italian. So how can they find the playfulness? It's often through story. Again, as a journalist, you know the power of a story. So I'll ask them, when did you learn this? What's the mindset shift that gave you? If you had one minute on the planet to explain this idea, how would you frame it? What's the story you would share with an audience? And it's kind of getting them to have fun with it, be less serious. And then with the purpose piece, it's really honoring the audience with an action, believing that this is going to change something for them. I think as a speaker, you always have to go in knowing that you're going to shift the mindset of the audience and it's going to help them. And how can I help is a principle I was taught by an actor. And I think if you go into a room and really think, how can I help this audience with a problem that they're stuck with, that's where you have real impact. In a room. And then the final piece is once you start rehearsing, and I still do this as a speaker with my coach, how can you get to a point where the ideas really sequence so that you know exactly what's coming next, you know how to flow between it, and how can you speak it like you're standing by a fireside with a glass of cognac in your hand with your oldest friends? It's not It's not stressed, it's not overthinking, it's playful, it's easy, it's relaxed. And that's not magic, that's a process. And it's a process that I go through as a speaker every time I have to speak to an audience as well. So it's iterative. It's not like you take the magic pill and then you're sorted with your speaking. It's like each time, like a great tennis player, you have to go through this process again. Cause it's always different, it's always new. Yeah. And And do you think if you have too much knowledge about a certain topic that it can sometimes work against you? Because I I remember the passion part is probably there, right? You're probably very passionate about the topic if you know everything about it. But it can sometimes I feel like be a burden as well. Because I remember my math teachers in high school and they were they were the sweetest. I I I had a very sweet teacher, but I don't think he was the best teacher because he was so good at math that he just couldn't fathom the fact that I could not understand a certain math problem, right? It was just so glaringly obvious to him that he would skip certain steps that I needed. to understand ⁓ the pr the problem. And I sometimes when I write an article, for example, I almost prefer it if I don't know anything about the topic, because then I am at the same level as the reader will be, because all of the questions I ask might be very obvious, but that's the point of writing something that many people find interesting and helpful is you ask the questions that matter to this audience. Whereas as soon as I get more knowledge about a topic and that I wrote many, many articles about, and then people are reading it back because in journalism there's always someone who reads it before it's gets published. And then oftentimes they say, hey Julius, what do you mean by this? Like how you go You I believe you skipped something, like I don't understand this. And then you read it back, ⁓ that makes that makes sense. Yeah, I I should have explained that, but it's just too obvious. ⁓ do you do you see that happen a lot? It's a killer. It's so it's that's the deep problem for experts. And the thing that I do now always as a speaker is ask the audience, give them an optional survey to find out what they want to know. And if I can't do that, then with my coach, we'll really think through where are they at? Where where is this group starting at? What is it that they're coming hoping to learn? And what are the obstacles to them learning this? Because if you can really name the obstacles to someone learning, like they want to speak with confidence, but the obstacle is that their lives are really busy and there's no time. If I as a speaker can start with those two things, the question and the obstacle. then I'm invited to go back to beginner's mind with them. And often the stories that we tell about the time when we learnt it are really, really valuable for an audience. But you have to really step out of the stuff that you know and go back to the moment where you knew nothing and start there. And that's really engaged. It's what good writers do as well, like you've said, it's that's where it's engaging often. Unless they're, you know, if it's a group of expert voice coaches, then I don't have to do that. But most of the time that's not my audience. Yeah, it's it's difficult though, because how can you you have to pretend for a second that you don't know something, but you do. But it's very difficult for our brains to forget something when we try to. It's easy to forget things, but when we try to forget something, it's it's pretty difficult. Is there is there a certain ⁓ trick to do it or is it Just mainly awareness and and trying to to be ⁓ to go back to the basics. I think it's the first principles piece. And I also think there is something about speakers who are also learners. Like the speakers who really interest me are the kind of humble ones and they're always learning. And I think if we're always learning, we're always in beginner's mind. Because the truth is no matter what field you're in, the field is always changing. So in any field, the stuff that was true a year ago is probably no longer what it was. The field has changed. And I think if we show up with that humility and that openness, and if we're really, really clear on what the audience are asking, I think it's easier to stay fresh and to keep a beginner's mind. The killer, the absolute killer is the keynote that you've done fifteen times and that you keep doing. That is To me, when when I see someone just roll out this keynote that they always do, I'm just like, ⁓ God, because nobody wins there. The audience are hearing something that you're basically reciting like a poem, and you're not really alive to the room because you don't need to, because you know this. And I know for some professional speakers that is how they make their money, but I just that's not how I want to be. I want it to feel alive for the moment and new. You you mentioned playfulness as well as being a very important factor ⁓ as to what makes a story interesting and what makes an audience want to listen to your story. I had to think about maybe it's a weird scenario, but maybe it isn't. When I've I've been to funerals and on certain funerals there are some very heavy-hearted speeches, which is understandable because it's a sad sad day, usually. Most yeah, pretty much all of the time. I can't really imagine a scenario where it wouldn't be. But every now and then you'll get a speaker that has a way of making it light, making it playful. ⁓ remembering the good times, making the audience laugh and make it feel more like a s celebratory moment to honor one's life rather than a sad, depressing day. I think that just shows the power of playfulness that good speakers can make such a heavy moment feel light still. How how do we practice playfulness? playfulness and and to to make ⁓ sometimes maybe I I I ha I talked about a heavy topic, but it can also be a boring topic, right? Some people have to talk about boring stuff. How can we make the heavy, how can we make the boring more playful? So I think the I mean this is very much in gravitas and gravity in the sense that gravity has the downward force within it and then there's an upward lightness equal and opposite. And I think all good speakers with gravitas have that balance of forces within them. And I think the first thing that blocks the lightness is that we get stressed. And I, you know, I know this in myself as a speaker. When I'm really nervous, I look so serious. So the thing I always do now as a speaker is take time to really relax before I speak. Because when we're relaxed, that playfulness is just a birthright for us as a species. So first thing is. Before you speak, rather than checking your phone, go for a run in the morning. Or if meditation's your thing, meditate. Get there early. You know, sit quietly if that's your thing, or have some really fun chats with people in the audience. Whatever gets you in the right place. And make sure that when you walk on stage or walk into that meeting or log into it, that you have a feeling of energy. Rather than a feeling of being, ⁓ I've got to do this. Hell's mouth opening was what my acting teacher called it. Have a feeling of ⁓ this is fun, I get to do this. How lucky I'm lucky. But then in the preparation, I I mean, so when I prepare the thing I prepared for on Tuesday, I'm always looking for the ideas that feel fun. You know, that if when you're writing it it feels heavy, it's probably not going to work for the audience either. What is it that you know the audience want to know? But also what makes you light up when you think about it? What are you going to enjoy sharing with them? And the absolute golden rule is nu do not ever present someone else's slides or speech, because that is so hard to make that fun. Because it's not yours. It's not your voice. So l look for lightness in your own system, in your body, in your voice, in your breath, and look for lightness in your content. And and that and then it's love, which is why great speakers at funerals are often light, because love is light. You know, love is And great speakers on stage, not at funerals, actually. It's really about love. Interesting. Cheesy but true. ⁓ you mentioned that when whether you're speaking to a single person, whether you're speaking to a room ⁓ of people, or even the the speech you did on on Tuesday, I believe it was you sat ⁓ in front of two hundred and fifty people, it always feels and should feel like You're still having a conversation with someone. How how do you do that? That seems difficult. I've I've got better at it over the years. How do I know the difference? When you walk out on stage, if you feel the sense of the pressure, and if you feel a sense of, I'm gonna start talking and I'm gonna keep talking and then I'm gonna stop, it's often time is really a A news reporter taught me this. He says, When we're in fight or flight, I lose track of time. And that feeling of losing track of time is fight or flight. What great theatre directors will tell you, and which I use now as a speaker on stage, is just go thought by thought. So if you've done enough rehearsal, all you have to know when you walk on stage or log in is the first thing you're gonna say. And then you take a moment and you breathe and you say the next thing. And the ideas will just go thought by thought. And that feels less heavy. It gives you space to think, it gives you space to notice the audience. And it suddenly becomes this conversation. Because when I'm chatting to my friends, I'm not thinking, what am going to say next? I'm just listening. So I land a I land an idea, I notice how the audience are responding, and then the next idea comes and I send that. And that's the back and forth, even if they're not talking of a great speech, it's it's a conversation with their minds. And you've got to be looking to see how it's landing before you do the next thing. Right. And you mentioned the the minus anxiety part as part of the equation, even though that's not a classical equation, if we ⁓ follow follow the rules. Your math teacher would delight it. My minus anxiety. Sounds very easy. Is very difficult if ⁓ can be very difficult if you ⁓ yeah don't know what to do. I remember being on the radio for the first time, and I had written a story about influencers who were not taking the advertising rules all too seriously. So whenever influencers make an ad for something, do an ad for something, they have to say hashtag ad. It's European legislation and I did research on this, like how often are they ⁓ actually running ads without saying they did. And I worked on this story for weeks and I was I was really into this story. I I I I knew everything. And then I went on on the radio for the first time and I wouldn't say it went terrible. It went pretty well actually, given the fact that it was my first time. However, I do remember being very nervous and all these filler words entering into my speech. And ever since I listened back to that radio show I did, I wanted to get rid of my filler words, the ums and ahs, everyone knows. And it's so much better. It sounds so much more confident when you can just pause, think and Say nothing for all. Gather your thoughts. However, this is something that I need to remind myself still every single conversation I I enter that I really want to sound good. Pause, brief, don't use filler words. But when I don't think about it, I'll listen back to a show even now, and I listen back to it and I just have to cringe because I hear ums and ahs and it's back to the drawing board, back to killing these out of my speech. So I guess my question is, how can we practice not to use filler words and perhaps more importantly, why do we sound better when we don't use filler words and just let a pause fall? It makes me laugh because I once did a Radio Four show with a lovely poet called Michael Rosen in the UK, which was about filler words. And normally they edit them out often. This time they left them all in. And even as we were talking about filler words and why they're good or bad, we were doing loads of them. So the first thing to say is that in in a conversation, we use filler words to mark thinking. And they're okay. But as you say in formal speech, and because you've written a report, you were the expert, to some extent it was a presentation of this report, wasn't it? Then I think as an audience we want to feel that it's thought through. And filler words make it sound like we're thinking on our feet. Now why you you have thought it through is And the reason those filler words come in under pressure is because anxiety makes us feel like we have to rush. Anxiety is speedy, and anxiety says you haven't got time to think. So that's when we we kind of we're rushing our breath and we're kind of umming because it's claiming space, but we're not actually giving ourselves time to slow down. And I think the kind of the antidote there's the filler, kind of, the antidote to that is prepare. So probably you were. thinking about what you were going to say, but you might not have rehearsed it through in speech. And I was I mean, before the gig on Tuesday, I ran it twice with my coach the day before because I know that if I've said it a couple of times, the ideas flow and I don't have to think about it. And then I'm less likely to ⁓ and I think th the other thing that's really, really important to do is to get your head quiet before you go on air or before before you go on stage. Because if we don't get our head quiet, the speediness kicks in. So rehearsal and then calm are two things that will just help you. It's like saying to the adrenaline, Okay, thank you. You just want me to do well. I'm gonna do better if I stop and and breathe now. I don't need to rush. Cause the adrenaline is saying, Get it over with, get out of there, go home. And you're just like, No, no, no, no, no. I'm just gonna stop. I'm gonna enjoy this. I'm gonna breathe. It'll work better. And you kinda have to calm your own nervous system down. Yeah. I I I notice when I am calm, I'm I feel pretty calm right now and now I am able to just pause when I don't exactly know what to say. But it's interesting to me that it seems to be such a recurring issue. If I don't focus on it, it'll be back next conversation I have. So it need co needs constant work and and constant reminders, at least to myself, that I ⁓ Yeah. Want to want to just pause when I when I don't know what to say. You mentioned being being that you like to rehearse, but you also mentioned if you do the same speech ⁓ fifteen times in a row, it might be overpractice. What's the what's the golden balance there between rehearsing enough and being over practiced? I like The idea that the Greeks had of the memory house. And core ideas, signposts, if you like, through a speech that you have to hit. And then in between those signposts, a sense that you can find your own way. It's like navigating through Amsterdam. You might tell someone how to get to the Rijksmuseum and you give them a few corners that they need to turn out, a few rows that they need to walk down. You know, a thing that they have to make sure they pass. But you're not telling them what they should be doing every minute of those twenty minutes. They're navigating with signposts. I mind map my speeches with signposts, visual, big ideas, and then I practice going from signpost to signpost as a speaker, knowing that there's space in the room to riff a little bit. Right. Because that makes it sorry. No, go on, go on, please. A written speech, like a an essay, is a killer. I I re I'm constantly prizing them out of clients' hands. Cause I think then you're reading an essay. Or reading your slides. I just think people don't want it. The audiences don't want to hear you reading your slides. They really, really don't. Also, it seems way more difficult to be playful if you thought out every word you were going to say. If there's no Room for random thoughts, random interactions, ⁓ spontaneous words or or sentences, I I think. Yeah, absolutely. Rehearsed spontaneity is the answer. Like a an ability to riff and to play and be in the moment to quite a structured plan. Yeah, and your TED talk ⁓ that you did on how to speak with confidence was published ⁓ eleven years ago, I saw today. ⁓ it has over ten million views, which is absolutely incredible. Amazing. It's it's it's a lot. It's eleven years ago. Is there anything you does it obviously it's it's a pretty timeless topic, speaking with confidence. But is there something now eleven years later that you've learned that you wish you could still add to the TED talk? It's so funny because I think in our lives we just loop around a central theme so often. I mean writers do, don't they? And that talk is really all about breath. You know, the s the surprising secret to speaking with confidence is actually breath. And I've just spent the last year training as a breathwork facilitator and realizing that I've been I mean I I I've been good at playing confidence for a long time. But what I've been realizing in going really deep into breath work and somatics and the nervous system is that actually confidence has been a bit of a mask. And so what I would say to the speaker on that stage in twenty fourteen is you're absolutely on the right track. But keep going. 'Cause it gets more interesting. You know, there's more You're talking about the diaphragm, but you don't really know about it yet, you know, so often the case. So I've just gone deeper. Okay. Well that's I I think that's a good the good sign, good sign then. And what what about breath work? Because I am very interested in becoming a better communicator. I'm very interested in listening to people who are good communicators. But I am a total Yeah, noob, if you will, on on breathing and breath work. So how would you explain having to to how do you dial in your breathing to to sound good? The the thing with breath work is that it's a practice. It's like meditation. If you want to calm your mind and you do it once every two weeks, it's not really gonna work. If you Every day take five minutes to lie on the floor at home or lie in bed and just put a hand on your tummy and feel that as you breathe in the tummy lifts up, and as you breathe out, the tummy moves back to the spine, then what your body starts to learn is that there's a nice, easy ability to self-regulate. And most people rush around in sympathetic nervous system in fight or flight, shoulders tense, chest breathing, jaw tight. And they don't access that easier parasympathetic state underneath. But it's there all the time. We just have to come back to it. So you might be sitting on the subway or sitting in the car in traffic, in a traffic jam, and just think, okay, I'm going to think about how I'm breathing, gonna breathe with my belly, gonna slow my breath down. And if you slow your outbreath, that slows your heart rate. So breathe in for four, breathe out for eight. Breathe in for four, breathe out for ten. If do that for a few minutes, your heart rate steadies, you get nice heart rate variability, your system slows. We've just got to do that every day. Every every day? Yeah. Every single day. Five minutes. It will change your life. More is definitely better. I definitely do more than that. But I think just before you leave the house in the morning, just come back to how am I breathing? How is my body? Where am I holding tension? Is am I chest breathing? Am I belly breathing? What could I do to bring my system into calm? Lots of people have a watch that's telling you. You know, if if your heart rate is high, take a moment to slow your outbreath and bring it down. If you start to notice your heart rate is spiking before you make a speech Sit quietly, center your breath. It it really is as simple as that, and it will make you a better speaker. So that is something you, if you practice it enough that you will carry out through the entire day? Yeah, so that it's funny, the people who know me well say that after doing, you know, everyday quite a lot of breathwork practice, on stage I show up really differently. And that's not conscious. It's an unconscious. presence that's come out of practice. And so I think, you know, meditators, yogis, people, you know, runners, any peop tennis players, people who are really in their bodies often show up with that kind of presence unconsciously. Because they're training the somatic system through repetition. And so when we meet this the pressure, we we rise to it. That the old acting trope is we rise to our level of practice. I mean I should do it more often. ⁓ yeah, Wim Hof, Rebecca Dennis, there are some really great teachers out there online. Wim Hof is more activating, Rebecca Dennis is more calming, but they're both great, you know. Cool. And finally, I was curious. I know you mentioned that you ⁓ don't necessarily wanna wanna genderize it, but I was still curious, is there Something that ⁓ women ⁓ struggle with more often and ⁓ is there something that a man ⁓ struggle with more often when trying to speak ⁓ eloquently and and with confidence? Interesting. I mean I work with introverted engineers a lot of the time, and male and female introverted engineers often have similar challenges, you know, or introverted leaders, but I think for women There is something systemic. Certainly in the UK, each culture is different. You know, the Netherlands is has a different kind of culture, I think, for women as well. But women in the UK and the US will often say, I say something and someone else talks over me and then someone else says it and they go, ⁓ great point, Andrew. But Amanda said it five minutes ago. And th and and that is often partly about women's voices not being heard in very male conversations, but also women not trusting their voices. And you know, there's a kind of it it's a chicken and egg situation. And I think for men, well, men struggle with that too. There are some men who aren't heard in those rooms. And I think the other the one for men that I'm working with a lot at the moment is the the one we talked about earlier, which is not stepping into the audience's shoes. It's often a a Product of very intellectual, expert men just going here's the what and not really thinking about the why or the who, not starting where the audience are. And it's usually a product of stress and not having enough time. Interesting. And is there i in general finally something that you see happen a lot? Is there something that a lot of people get wrong about what it takes to speak with confidence? Biggest misconception about speaking with confidence is that some people are confident speakers and some people aren't. It's simply not true. We all have an inner presence and gravitas and value. We all have a voice. Well, I mean, you know, be there are certain medical conditions where people don't have voices, but most of us are lucky to have a voice. The the simplest rule is that if you practice If you get to know your nervous system, if you think about your audience, if you show up with a sense of how can I help, and really lean into how you can add value, you will speak well. It's no magic. It's just repetition. It's just practice. And I the only thing I would say to people is start small. Practice at home. Practice with a friend. Get a coach. Go to a drama school. Because the the skills will build slowly and you don't want to throw yourself in front of, you know, the Royal Albert Hall in London or, you know, a the Carnegie Hall in New York at first. Just find a small audience and get started. And I promise you there is a competent speaker within. Perfect. That sounds ⁓ like a hopeful, hopeful message. speaking is ⁓ a two way street. You're you're sending and receiving as well. It may not be applicable for for public speaking per se, but maybe with some some some audience interactions as well. But ⁓ how important is it to be able to yeah, be well yeah, how how can I phrase this ⁓ in in a way? How how can you make sure that you're a good listener? I mean, good listening is the foundation of good speaking. Good speakers are always good listeners first. And I mean, I come back to the same principles. Good listeners are generally quite grounded and calm. Their heads are not noisy. They're really present to you. They're really interested in you. And I think all of those things make good speakers too. And if we can quiet the voice in our head that is the product of adrenaline. We are really great listeners, all of us. And guess what? That's the foundation of great speaking too. Being curious, being present, having fun, being open. Beautiful. Is there anything we haven't touched on that you think is still important to mention ⁓ before we ⁓ wrap it up today? Introverts can make great speakers. Yeah, we think that we have to be Tony Robbins, you know, and march about stages and impress people. And I'm I'm often drawn to the quiet ones. Quietness on stage can be really compelling. And I think the secret to speaking well is to really trust your own style and not try to be something that you're not. Because that's always It's exhausting. And audiences respond to something true, not something impressive in averted commas. Beautiful. Caroline, this was so, so interesting. I ⁓ yeah, learned a lot and this was ⁓ an amazing conversation. So thank you so much. Where can people go if they want to keep up with your work and and learn more about your ⁓ your your coaching, your your your Material, anything you do. The books are easy to find on Amazon and all good booksellers. There's Gravitas and Find Your Voice. My website, Caroline Goider.com, G-O-Y-D-E-R.com, has two nice things to say. One is it has a free Gravitas course. So it's like a mini blinkist for the book Gravitas. It's about fifteen minutes. And then it has a free confidence booster audio course. And those are two Really good places to start. And you can also find me on YouTube and Instagram and TikTok and LinkedIn as well. Perfect. Well, I make ⁓ I'll make sure to to put it in the in the show notes. And ⁓ yeah, thanks again. This was ⁓ absolutely incredible. ⁓ thank you for having me. Really enjoyed the chat, Julius.