Latest / Simply Bitcoin / Jesse Myers & Steven Lubka | Simply Bitcoin IRL

Transcript

Jesse Myers & Steven Lubka | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:07
Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of
0:09
Simply Bitcoin IRL. Today's going to be a very very
0:12
special show. Been looking forward to this
0:14
one. It is with Jesse Myers, he is
0:17
the CEO of on-ramp Bitcoin and a co-worker fellow coworker at the
0:22
best place to build your Bitcoin Stacks, one.com the head of swan
0:27
private the one, the only the legendary Stephen lepka he has
0:31
the best posture I've ever seen. It's incredible anyways before
0:35
we jump into the show and again, Give an awesome shoutout to the
0:38
Bitcoin companies that make this show possible.
0:41
Of course, Swan Bitcoin the best place to build your Bitcoin
0:45
stack. It's being built by bitcoiners
0:48
it's for bitcoiners. The dollar cost averaging is
0:51
simple. If you're high net worth
0:53
individual, check out Swan private.
0:55
What do you what do you waiting for visit Swan.com today?
0:58
And of course the biggest Bitcoin conference on the face
1:01
of the Earth, it's coming up in a week Bitcoin 2023, it's Miami
1:06
Beach Florida. May 18th through the 20th and
1:09
you can use the promo code simply to get yourself a major
1:12
discount. Anyways, no more delay.
1:14
Let's bring on these gentlemen on stage.
1:16
How you doing, boys? What's going on Nico?
1:19
Great to be here. I click baited everybody.
1:23
This is not a Bitcoin show today, okay?
1:26
This is a health show, this is simply Health, we're
1:29
transitioning. We're only going to be talking
1:31
about walking and sunlight and for anyone who doesn't know
1:36
Steven, Walks 350 miles a month. That is absolutely absurd.
1:43
He sent me pictures. He has a trail Mark.
1:46
All right. He's creating Trail marks on
1:48
this on the sidewalks by how much he's walking.
1:51
But anyways, Stephen like we've been going back and forth in
1:56
private about this. Why don't you tell everybody?
2:00
What is it that you know that not that many people know about
2:03
walking in sunlight. Why is it so healthy?
2:06
All right, Be a quick elevator pitch for all of you Bitcoin
2:09
people. And we've been dming about this
2:11
and you've started walking. So, I know you've started
2:13
walking Nico. I've been appreciating that two
2:17
main things, right? So there so they've done studies
2:21
on all-cause mortality. That's your chance of dying from
2:25
anything. For any reason, if you walk 16
2:29
like it's called sixteen thousand steps.
2:31
A day, you would be better off. Starting to smoke a pack a day
2:36
then, When walking 8000 steps, that's how big that effect.
2:40
Is that 8000 steps in aggregate outweighs?
2:44
Generally what we see from smoking, it's a huge habit and
2:48
you know, beyond just like, kind of the health aspect, it keeps
2:51
your mind. Clear, and the other benefit it
2:53
gets you out in the sun. I think the biggest thing people
2:55
are sleeping on is how circadian rhythm and our eyes seeing light
3:01
influence. Just about everything.
3:03
It is another one, I like the largest causes Of death is
3:07
actually in sufficient sunlight now.
3:09
So I'm a big proponent know and I totally believe it as well
3:12
because you know, like it specially like in countries that
3:17
are more farther up. North, right?
3:19
You hear a lot about that, you hear a lot about about people
3:21
getting depressed because they don't get that much sunlight.
3:24
And it's preventative, mess medicine.
3:27
Meaning there's not that much profit in it, compared to how
3:32
the current medical system is today, and you can kind of tie
3:35
that into Fiat. But anyways, before we go down
3:38
that rabbit hole, Jesse how you doing man?
3:41
You've been dropping some incredible articles one of which
3:46
was retweeted by Michael sailor. I'm going to read the yes the
3:50
headline of this one which is Bitcoins full potential
3:55
valuation and for anyone who doesn't, who hasn't read this, I
3:59
highly recommend. We're going to pull little
4:01
Snippets of it. Today, we're going to talk about
4:03
it but you made the case the same case.
4:06
That the legendary one and only how Finney made many many years
4:10
ago when Bitcoin was worth fractions of a fraction of a
4:15
fraction of a fraction of what it is today.
4:17
But you still made the case, 14 years later, that Bitcoin could
4:22
potentially be a ten million dollar asset.
4:26
And the, the case that you make is that it will take about 25
4:30
percent of the world's wealth, but I hear that number and I
4:33
feel like it's a big number and, and I'm really curious too.
4:36
To hear Stephens thoughts on this as well.
4:39
So start off with you. Jesse, what inspired you to
4:42
write that article and what made you so confident about it?
4:45
Yeah, awesome. So I'm before Bitcoin, I was a
4:50
Management Consultant and a big part of that is developing the
4:55
analytical tool kit to go into a problem where there's not, it's
5:01
not clear what the answer is, and try to triangulate a
5:04
reasonable estimate of what Answer is.
5:08
And so when you're doing that for large businesses, that looks
5:12
like they're coming in and to a business unit and they're asking
5:18
what's our potential profit? If we if we were to spin up in
5:23
Asia, you know, start competing their, don't know.
5:27
And then you go a go about trying to figure out reasonable
5:30
estimates to get some ballpark number.
5:33
So that's how I think about problems like this.
5:35
And that's are my brain went immediately.
5:38
When I fell down the Bitcoin Rabbit, Hole of trying to size
5:41
the opportunity here and you know, in the business world in
5:47
the Consulting world, you talk about full potential.
5:49
What's the full potential of? You know, of this product of
5:52
this business unit of our profitability?
5:55
How what's the max? What's the ceiling on?
5:57
What's possible here? And so I wanted to do that and
6:02
you know, I was aware of house numbers and of course we're all
6:05
aware of the Reyes, huge numbers that people have thrown out over
6:10
the years about Bitcoin the there's the stock to flow model
6:14
of plan. B's handles 100 trillion which
6:19
implies a five million dollar per Bitcoin and then I think he
6:23
got more bullish than that. So, he kind of went even bigger.
6:26
There's people who have said in the past hundred million dollars
6:29
per Bitcoin. But there hasn't been like
6:32
analytical rigor around that and so I wanted to put some flesh on
6:39
house idea. Really of what is the role of
6:43
this asset in the global asset landscape?
6:46
How big is that total addressable Market?
6:49
First of all, turns out when you when you tally up all of the
6:53
assets out there, there's nine hundred trillion dollars of
6:57
Assets in the world spread between your various asset
7:00
buckets. Like a real estate stocks bonds
7:02
money itself and Bitcoin is this tiny tiny little bit 400 billion
7:09
in this right now it's I guess closer to the 600 billion but
7:13
point, oh, five percent 1/2000 of the world's assets is
7:20
Bitcoin. And obviously, I believe in
7:24
bitcoiners believe that because of its Superior properties, as a
7:28
store of value Asset, as digital gold, for the digital age, Edge
7:32
that point. Oh, five percent is going to
7:35
grow its going to take some of the value stored in these other,
7:41
traditional buckets of analog, physical store value assets,
7:47
like real estate or like bonds and siphon that value away
7:53
because every day anyone who's looking at their portfolio and
7:58
they see I've got 20 Five percent in bonds.
8:03
Do I want to hold that? You know, since we're going into
8:06
an era of increasing money printing, I believe that bonds
8:10
will deliver - real returns over the next decade.
8:15
And I'd rather own something that's going to deliver a
8:17
positive return. And I believe, because of
8:21
Bitcoins properties of the increasing scarcity, it will do
8:24
that. It will be like gold from the
8:27
70s with this added Rocket Fuel of increasing scarcity.
8:30
T gold in the 70s. Had a 14 x during the
8:34
stagflation of the 70s because stocks underperformed and
8:38
everybody wanted hard assets rather than keeping their money
8:41
and in dollars and eating eating it on inflation.
8:46
So gold, 14 The X in the 70s, I think Bitcoin could do that and
8:52
some this decade. And so, you know, this whole
8:56
analysis was to was to take stock of How early it is still
9:02
for Bitcoins position in the global asset landscape.
9:06
And then put some analytical rigor around what?
9:08
Where is the ceiling? What?
9:09
Percentage of all the assets out there, could Bitcoin siphon away
9:14
over the coming decades. And the answer I came out with
9:17
was I think it can reach 25% of all the Assets in the world by
9:23
siphoning Away by causing people to choose.
9:26
I'd rather not hold bonds. I'm going to sell these bonds
9:28
and I'm going to buy Bitcoin instead.
9:30
And that individual decision goes on every day, all over the
9:34
world for everyone and incrementally, Bitcoin needs
9:37
more and more of the world's store of value assets.
9:41
So that would mean going from a 0.05 percent of the world's
9:46
assets to 25 percent of the world's assets, would mean a
9:50
500x in real terms, inflation-adjusted terms over
9:55
the coming decades and I think that's the full potential for
9:58
what Bitcoin can do. Yeah.
10:00
And Steven pass it on to you as the head of swan private, do you
10:04
do you agree with this? Do you agree with this with
10:08
Jesse's thesis, which was originally house?
10:11
You know, house original idea? Right, is, you know how you
10:14
know, may he rest in peace, you know, he obviously didn't go in
10:19
depth or any he broke it down, you know, on a on a much higher
10:22
level of like on a much, I don't know what the proper terminology
10:25
is but it was more simplistic in the way that he described it in
10:29
the reason is Opal Bitcoin wasn't even like didn't have
10:32
value back then, right? So it was just a thought
10:34
experiment, the way that he approached it, but, you know,
10:38
Stephen pass it on to you. What are your thoughts on this?
10:41
When you hear these numbers do? They sound absurd, like what is
10:45
your thinking? Is this something that you bring
10:47
up to your clients? You know?
10:49
Because one of the one of the talking points that I always
10:51
hear is like Nico, you know, I'm too late to bitcoin.
10:54
Look at those, I can get it for 10 cents on the I don't even
10:57
know what the price of Doge is but you guys get my point,
10:59
right? So, Steven, do you hear this
11:01
often? Yeah, so I mean I actually
11:04
really agree with the way of looking at it that Jesse is
11:08
saying I've said it kind of in a much simpler way to clients many
11:12
times and it's like do you think it's at all likely that in the
11:17
future 2% of people's wealth around the globe might be stored
11:21
in Bitcoin? Most people it's like yeah that
11:25
that seems reasonable 1% 2%. Well then the price should be
11:30
Really higher than here - Cordy X.
11:33
Yeah. So that's like that's really
11:35
simple. Like could it get to 2520
11:37
couldn't get the 30? I don't even really like try to
11:40
speculate that far out. But do we think there's a high
11:43
probability that a couple percent of the world's wealth?
11:47
Could end up in Bitcoin over the next decade?
11:49
Absolutely like. And and we've done some work on
11:52
that. So two things, one, it's
11:55
actually really interesting. I don't have this chart and you
11:58
may have trouble finding it so it's a tricky one.
12:01
The percentage that Gold's market cap was in 1970 or like
12:07
at the peak of that move of us assets and I don't have the
12:12
number off the top of my head, but if you look this up, it was
12:15
substantial. It was double-digit percentages.
12:18
I believe that gold actually represented a huge slice of all
12:22
us asset value. And so saying, could Bitcoin be
12:27
twenty percent of assets. I think that, I mean, that that
12:31
actually is a return to what monetary and asset Dynamics
12:35
looked like, you know, a few decades ago.
12:38
So is that possible? Of course that's possible,
12:41
right? Well it happen What timeline?
12:43
Who knows? But it's so that's one thing and
12:46
then the other thing is we've actually also been doing some
12:48
work on this with Nakamoto portfolio.com.
12:53
So our CIO Hoffa Alpha Zeta on Twitter.
12:58
He was built this incredible and Text tool and with that you can
13:03
basically plug in all the asset classes stocks real estate
13:06
bonds. You can say what percentage do
13:09
you think of it is monetary premium.
13:11
AKA people are only buying these things because they don't have a
13:15
store value. They don't have something else
13:16
to hold and you can kind of run some calculations and you're
13:20
going to come to similar numbers, you know, depending on
13:23
what assumptions you plug in. Oh yeah and you found this, what
13:27
was it? It was okay so as 5% of global
13:30
Global Financial assets and and then yeah.
13:33
So it'd be a higher number of u.s.
13:35
Yeah. I think the Peter teal, put out
13:38
the slide of in 1980. The total value of all the gold
13:42
in the world was two point five trillion dollars.
13:45
And all of the equities in the world.
13:48
All the stocks was two point five trillion dollars.
13:51
So we were at parity at the end of the stagflation from the 70s
13:55
and has and obviously since then stocks have grown to a hundred
13:58
and fifteen trillion. God has grown to 12 trillion.
14:02
So 10x out performance by stocks during this 40-year, period of
14:07
decreasing interest rates and and Fiat, which has, which I
14:11
think is set to reverse and commodities will be the winner.
14:14
This coming decade and let me jump in right there with a quick
14:17
comment because this might not be on listeners minds, but one
14:21
of the arguments that people make frequently is like.
14:24
So, if you have like a hard money taking up so much of this
14:28
value, wouldn't it crippled? Economic growth like, wouldn't
14:31
that just totally a everything 1970s like, you know, I mean
14:36
obviously there was some economics that like stagflation
14:39
and that particular era but that gold relationship had been going
14:42
on for some time that wasn't like novel.
14:46
So you had kind of the US economy from you know the early
14:50
1900s through you know more recently you had gold as a store
14:55
of value Asset taking up a much more significant slice of all
14:59
assets and now. Extremely Dynamic.
15:02
Period, not just looking at GDP but because I would honestly
15:06
like you can look at GDP and it's the same argument is still
15:09
kind of made there and you can see it.
15:11
But I would even say that the dynamism of that period is more
15:15
fundamental than what is captured in those GDP metrics
15:19
because, you know, you can you can kind of convert anything
15:22
into Data. But what was really unique about
15:25
that, you know, mid to late 1900s in America, is you saw
15:29
these huge Huge real-world, actual strides, in technology
15:35
and living standards and like, people's actual lives change.
15:39
It wasn't just like trade balances, and the velocity of
15:42
money. Yeah, 100% Jesse.
15:45
Do you want to do? You want to go back and forth?
15:49
Sure. But on what it Stevens comments.
15:52
Oh yeah. And II agree with that.
15:55
I was trying to decide if I had anything to add in terms of the
15:59
dynamism of the 70s. But yeah, I think that's a fair
16:03
characterization. Yeah.
16:05
So what is the and to push it onto you guys?
16:09
Of course we're going down the speculative rabbit hole but so
16:12
be it I think a lot would a lot of people are wondering and I'm
16:16
sure you get this question. Not Steven.
16:20
Is what is, what is the, what is the timeline here?
16:23
What is the time scale, right? Because it's like, oh 500x,
16:26
that's great. You know, but at the same time
16:29
is are we talking 10 years? Are we talking 20 years?
16:31
Are we talking 30 years question?
16:34
Yeah would love to jump in there.
16:36
So I think that as bitcoiners we have to be prepared for this to
16:40
be a generational shift. I think that it just is going to
16:45
take a long time for people to adjust.
16:48
Just their their unit of account and and that may not even happen
16:54
in. You know, it's not going to
16:55
happen in the Boomers lifetimes for most Boomers.
16:59
Some Boomers have already found Bitcoin and they are setting up
17:02
their family to you in a great way.
17:06
Most Boomers still think that the Bitcoin is a crazy, could
17:10
you hold on a second? Could you define generation?
17:12
Are we talking about 10? 20 years?
17:15
Yeah, I guess 20 years, yeah. Typically like the, you know,
17:20
the Baby Boomers Gen X Millennials Zoomers, I think
17:23
each generation will have a greater percentage that realizes
17:29
the value of Bitcoin and Ops to include that as a major part of
17:35
their savings strategy. And then I think what happens is
17:38
that. So, what's the conventional
17:40
wisdom right now? In terms of investing and how to
17:43
be responsible with your money? It's the 60/40 portfolio, you
17:48
know. What we've been told by the
17:50
people that were successful in the last generation is get a
17:53
mortgage and then put all your money into, you know, 60% stocks
17:57
40% bonds, you'll do great right because that's what worked for
18:02
them because that is the formula that worked great.
18:05
When you start in, when you start your career in 1981 and
18:08
interest rates are 15% and a house cost, two times, your
18:12
salary and and for, you know, house cost.
18:18
Thousand dollars, and that was two times your salary.
18:21
And then over the next 40 years, we've run interest rates down
18:27
from 15 percent. 20 percent financial asset valuation
18:32
Skyrocket, meaning meaning your home, the value of your home
18:35
skyrockets, and the value or stock portfolio skyrockets to.
18:41
And so, you did great because you happen to choose the right
18:45
savings vehicles for that era. Now, Going forward.
18:49
Those are going to underperform those savings vehicles have, I
18:53
think peaked in relative terms and nominal terms?
18:56
They'll still go up? So like the price that, you
18:58
know, as we keep printing money, the value of a home in dollar
19:03
terms will keep going up and people will think they're
19:06
getting richer the same way that it happened in Weimar Germany.
19:10
But I think they'll actually be underperforming in real terms
19:14
over the next few decades, but the winning strategy will be to
19:18
Art assets, the things that have underperformed or last 40 years
19:22
and I think we'll are set to overperform over the next 40
19:28
years but that means that it's only going to become clear in
19:32
hindsight you know 20 30, 40 years from now that the winning
19:36
strategy all along was to accumulate hard assets.
19:39
Like Bitcoin, most notably gold will probably do well too and
19:44
you know, I'm a relative basis, like land will do well.
19:48
Well, as you know fairly well, I still think underperforms
19:52
Bitcoin angled and so it's we're still so early in the adoption
19:59
curve. That's the other thing that it's
20:00
hard to remember. There's there's four million
20:05
addresses with point one, Bitcoin or more in them on
20:09
chain. And if you understand Bitcoin
20:14
you have stored, your savings on chain.
20:17
So let's round it up. You know, some people are still
20:20
going to use exchanges and keep their their Bitcoin, their call
20:24
it 10 million. People actually understand
20:26
Bitcoin as a part of their savings strategy. 10 million
20:32
Bitcoins, 10 million people in the world.
20:34
Doing that with, there's two billion people on the planet
20:38
with ten thousand dollars or more of net worth.
20:41
So people who have any money to save to store in some vehicle.
20:47
So that is 10 million of two billion is half a percent.
20:51
So we are currently half a percent into the technology
20:55
adoption curve for this savings, technology, that's what Bitcoin
21:00
is at its core and and that puts us in the first fifth of the
21:05
first category of adopters the the, you know, we're not, we
21:09
haven't reached the mainstream. We haven't even reached the
21:12
early adopters, we're in the innovators category and we're
21:14
still in the first fifth of That.
21:16
So all of the adoption curve is still to come.
21:20
And that means and what that means is all the people who in
21:24
Our Lives who dismiss it currently, haven't included it
21:28
in their saving strategy and are going to come around because
21:33
they can't stand missing out at some point.
21:35
Like, there's we've had a few data points.
21:39
Here's been 33 having's and three post having bull markets a
21:43
year. From now we're going to have the
21:44
fourth having and We've the fourth post having bull market
21:49
and some people who regretted being on the sidelines, last
21:54
go-around will dip a toe in this time and I think we
22:00
incrementally move through the adoption curve in that way until
22:04
a generation from now, or maybe it's 30 or 40 years from now,
22:08
it's the primary way. It's the, the normal way to
22:12
store your savings is primarily in Bitcoin and Really in these
22:17
other asset classes like stocks or real estate.
22:22
What would you? What would your anxiety?
22:25
What would your response be to that Stephen?
22:27
When you hear Jesse saying that? Yeah, first of all I want to
22:31
say. What's up to dr.
22:32
Jeff Ross and the comments, great to see you, man.
22:37
What would my response be to that?
22:38
I mean, I largely so I think it's.
22:42
So the original question. Question being timelines, right?
22:45
I think there's some of these events I like to think of the
22:49
world in terms of things which are predictable and things which
22:52
are non predictable, right? And I think we often kind of
22:58
spend time and intellectual energy trying to predict things
23:01
that are just low probability of us being able to predict to
23:06
begin with, you know, ultimately the two I think, you know, Jesse
23:10
had very reasonable Kind of takes and comments there.
23:13
I would largely agree. But what I would say is like,
23:16
There are so many events that could happen that could shorten
23:21
or lengthen that timeline if they were to occur.
23:24
You know, we've seen there are catalysts in this world and our
23:29
ability to predict whether or not those catalysts happen.
23:32
I think is low. We have low confidence there.
23:35
So are there events are there certain macroeconomic and
23:39
financial events that have a nonzero probability, that could
23:44
happen, that could expedite that timeline.
23:46
Line by 90% like yes, those things exist.
23:49
Are there also events which could impair the whole thing
23:54
like, yes, those to exist. So, you know, if we're not going
23:57
to kind of get into all of those assessments, for me, it's hard
24:01
to answer, but if I were just to kind of give my base case, like
24:05
I would largely agree with Jesse.
24:06
So it's something where it's it is going to be.
24:12
I don't, I'm a little skeptical that there's this, like, In the
24:17
pan like hyper Bitcoin ization over the course of like one
24:20
year, like just everything goes to bitcoin.
24:22
I think that's relatively unlikely.
24:24
I think that's also suboptimal. So I think that would create a
24:28
lot of like I don't just mean problems for politicians, but I
24:32
mean, like, true geopolitical political turmoil for average
24:35
people. I think kind of the slower burn
24:38
and the more gradual. And what I'm calling gradual
24:41
right, could be a decade or two which is really pretty quick in
24:45
the larger scheme of things. For monetary transitions but
24:51
it's the sort of thing that I do think it's a slower burn.
24:53
I think you gradually see, people understand it and adopt
24:57
it. However you know, looking at
25:00
like what's going on currently banking, woes.
25:04
You know, I feel like more and more questions coming to the
25:07
role of dollar the dollar and Global Finance.
25:10
I mean, those are things which could expedite it as well, so it
25:12
could surprise us, it could be quicker, but Jay It's but it's
25:17
going to be longer than like a sudden flash in the pan event, I
25:22
think. Yeah, I think that's a great
25:24
distinction of like I don't think there's a flash in the pan
25:28
either and I think that we forget and we do ourselves a
25:32
disservice by forgetting this that I think this is hyper
25:35
Bitcoin ization. It doesn't feel like it on a
25:39
day-to-day basis but like, this is as fast as the world can
25:42
transition from one monetary Norm to another, and I think
25:47
thank goodness that Satoshi created these four year
25:50
intervals, because you can humans businesses.
25:56
We can incorporate that change and grow, like, really, like
26:00
tree rings where you have? You have a having and then
26:04
there's a bull market because of the supply shock, and there's
26:08
expansion and growth, there's you bring in a whole bunch of
26:11
people. Of course, it turns into mania
26:14
in. You crash on the, on the back,
26:16
Side of that. And then you've got the bear
26:19
Market which is winter and and hardening and developing and
26:24
individuals need that they need to build their conviction and
26:27
why they're holding this asset. And I think even more
26:31
importantly, is the businesses in Bitcoin need to be building
26:35
out the infrastructure to accommodate the next incremental
26:38
slice of adopters. And that is, you know, a
26:41
four-year timeline is as fast as you can.
26:43
Really realistically go in terms of That human process of
26:49
allowing Bitcoin to go in your, in your mind, and in your life
26:54
from. Sorry to go from nothing to go
26:58
from something that doesn't matter at all.
27:00
Yeah, to become the savings vehicle that you've organized
27:04
your life around. So we're living through hyper
27:09
Bitcoin ization right now and that and yeah, maybe maybe
27:12
that's a 20-year thing. Maybe it's a 40 or thing.
27:15
But in this And the scale of human history is lightning fast
27:19
because, you know, we've been humans have been using physical
27:23
money since for 70,000 years. At least that's the earliest
27:28
indication of shall money. And then we used physical money,
27:34
hard money for all of human history up until 50 years ago.
27:39
When we went off the gold standard in 1971 and we've been
27:43
living in this tiny little window of Fiat money.
27:46
Ever since that we've forgotten is is abnormal.
27:50
So you know now we're living in this once in a species
27:53
transition. That's why my newsletter is
27:55
called once in a species from analog money, how Humanity has
28:01
developed and and civilization like the basis of civilization
28:06
from analog money to Digital hard money and 20-30 years is a
28:13
blink of an eye on that time scale.
28:15
Yeah. And let's talk.
28:16
About the like in, you were touching upon it, Jesse right?
28:21
Which is idea of slowly. But surely people start to wake
28:25
up to that and you know, do to my daily life show.
28:29
I'm a slave to the new cycle and I but it's so incremental it's
28:33
ever so slow, but slowly, but surely, I personally call it the
28:37
bit code, the Bitcoin Echo chamber.
28:39
It's starting to break at the seams and people are starting to
28:43
ask very basic questions. My highlight Light really like
28:47
of the last two or three weeks is, you have one of the most
28:50
popular mainstream podcasters called Tim pool.
28:55
And on his show, he was, you know, he was covering you
28:59
Republic Bank and it, you know, it going under and all this
29:02
crazy stuff at the very end. He's like, guys, I want to give
29:04
you Financial advice but I don't want to tell you what you should
29:08
do, but I'm going to tell you what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna buy
29:12
Bitcoin, right? So it slowly, but surely that's
29:14
starting to kind of the bit. Coin Echo Chambers slowly
29:18
starting to break. And then Stephen, you were
29:20
featured in CNBC today. In regards to bitcoin responding
29:25
favorably to today. CPI print is that part of the
29:28
process or people waking up to bitcoin when they when they
29:32
think of that. What's your take?
29:35
Yeah I think so. I think there's a few things I
29:38
could highlight their one is actually the question that
29:41
Warren Buffett was asked that his recent Seminar, Symposium,
29:46
whatever you call it meeting and you had this, you probably saw
29:49
it online for those that didn't you had this like 13 or 16 year
29:53
old girl basically come up and ask him about like what does he
29:56
think of the status of the US dollar AS Global Reserve
29:59
currency like the subtext being? Do you think that's in Jeopardy
30:03
and his answer to like summarize it very quickly was like it's
30:07
not looking good. The fact that he gave that
30:12
answer the fact that he was asked that question.
30:15
Question. It's like a Containment Breach
30:18
where that discussion was previously limited to like
30:22
certain pockets of like macroeconomic Finance, Twitter,
30:26
gold bugs bitcoiners and that is now, you know, kind of kind of
30:32
there's been a Containment Breach.
30:34
Now is that me saying the dollar is going to lose its role, as
30:36
Global Reserve overnight. Of course not there's been many
30:40
kind of false starts and proclamations there but you're
30:43
seeing those concerns I think radiates outward into kind of
30:48
like concentric rings of institutional legitimacy and
30:51
that's part of this process to, you know, as far as kind of
30:56
other comments. Yeah I mean people are just
30:59
talking about it more grants which is an interest rate
31:03
Observer. They've been publishing for
31:05
decades probably like close, close to 100 years, I might have
31:10
it wrong, but they recently had a whole kind of part in their
31:14
newsletter. They're in their kind of their
31:16
dispatch about Bitcoin and the fact that they're even writing
31:20
about it at all. Is one of these signposts I
31:23
think discussion is is getting larger.
31:28
You know? I think it is spreading, I think
31:30
we're seeing adoption. We're also seeing that manifest
31:35
in the Bitcoin Community itself. And what I'm saying there is,
31:40
I've kind of watched this with a lot of curiosity that from the I
31:45
got into Bitcoin to now. It's gotten so much broader,
31:50
right? You have these different
31:52
factions within Bitcoin, you have progressives there really
31:56
like Bitcoin. Now, you have academics that
32:00
really like Bitcoin you have. It's not, it's become very
32:05
Broad. And to me, that's what Mass
32:07
adoption looks like there is no Mass adoption if your community
32:11
stays kind of narrow. That's, it's a Socialization.
32:15
Right. And so seeing this expand and
32:18
seeing all of these different voices and, you know, you know,
32:22
some of these by the BPI guys are phenomenal.
32:25
I'm thinking of like Troy cross and Andrew Bailey and Craig,
32:29
warm key. They're all phds, they're all
32:32
professors that have literally Troy had a tweet that was like
32:36
Bitcoin gave me a new life, it gave me meaning and purpose and
32:41
you know, these are guys that like, you know, maybe wouldn't
32:44
have been in like The 2013 cohort, but we're seeing that
32:48
now we're seeing Bitcoin, reach out, and connect with people and
32:53
motivate people. And to me, this, this is
32:56
adoption, right? Like that is what it looks like,
32:59
so, you know. Yeah, no.
33:01
And I completely agree, and then it really, it really helps us.
33:05
Also just, you know, we bitcoiners are just sitting, you
33:10
know, protected by their orange forcefield.
33:12
The longer you've been on a Bitcoin, Nerd the easier it
33:16
becomes to hottel you know, especially if you've you know,
33:18
you've been through a couple cycles and you're watching
33:23
either Janet Yellen or Jerome Powell try to, you know, they
33:29
asked him a very simple question like why why 2% inflation and
33:34
and the mental gymnastics that he went through to try to
33:38
explain that and you're just watching.
33:40
Do you know where it came from? No idea.
33:44
A random comment by a New Zealand Central Banker many
33:48
decades ago. It was like random off the cuff
33:52
just like we're going to Target two percent and it was one of
33:55
those weird stories where it got enshrined and they call us a
33:59
cult. They're the cult.
34:01
All right. But anyway, so we had and that.
34:03
And that's so interesting. So, we have Jerome Powell, and
34:06
then you have Janet Yellen being like, basically, questioned
34:10
about why she was bailing out the Big Banks.
34:13
And what would the would the unintended consequences of that
34:16
be affecting the Community Banks.
34:19
But what's really interesting is some comments that came from
34:23
anti Bitcoin Congressman. His name is Brad Sherman and he
34:28
had some comments, I'm gonna play the video and I want to get
34:30
your guys thoughts on this grip. Dobros make money literally, by
34:34
making money, and they've made over a trillion dollars out of
34:38
thin air, they'll accuse, the US government of making money out
34:42
of Thin air. Maybe we do, but where the US
34:45
government, Wow, I haven't seen that.
34:50
That's great. Yeah, maybe we do but we're the
34:56
US government. And then this kind of reminds me
34:58
of have this tweet pinned on the top of my, my Twitter and I
35:02
definitely took a lot of influence from Iron Rand and I
35:06
basically said, I refuse to work for money, that another man can
35:10
create for free. I don't care that you're the US
35:13
government, I don't care. You know, the fact that you can
35:17
just The create money for free that everyone's putting time and
35:20
energy and work and all this stuff into and then not to
35:25
mention all the unintended consequences of having a system
35:30
that is completely misaligned, right?
35:33
Whether that's the corruption in politics down, your alley,
35:36
Stephen and I'm sure you've gone down this rabbit hole and that
35:39
we should definitely take the conversation this direction.
35:42
And what that, what's that that's done to health as well,
35:44
right? It's Miss align.
35:46
The incentives of Of society in general as a whole in the
35:51
pharmaceutical industry as well. Because remember, the food
35:54
pyramid, remember, we were taught that in school as if it
35:57
was a fact, as if there's a reason was the true thing.
36:01
Anyways, Stephen, you have any, you have any thoughts on
36:05
representative Sherman? So, I want to just real quick,
36:09
so I'm going to call out John hard here who's part of the Swan
36:12
private team. He's one of the mvs at Swan.
36:16
He was forever. Is to buy the food pyramid.
36:19
The food pyramid was the single thing, which broke his trust in
36:23
institutions, and has never recovered.
36:26
That was though, it was it was too far for him.
36:29
So what's up, John? Do I have comments on Sherman?
36:35
So you know, I think you know, it can seem like kind of this
36:39
like gotcha like oh my God. They admitted their just
36:42
printing money from thin air but like I think the thing to keep
36:45
in mind is like that's the deal. Like no, thank God.
36:49
That's the system right? And like it's their argument.
36:53
Like if we were to have them on here Sherman or maybe someone
36:56
smarter than Sherman who could articulate.
36:58
What he really means. They would argue essentially
37:01
that. Yeah, we might be printing money
37:04
from thin air but the system works, doesn't it?
37:07
That's the argument. And so, you know, if the system
37:11
did work, if that were true and the u.s. government printing
37:16
money from thin air was the Deficient system we can have for
37:20
economic growth and human well-being.
37:22
Well then it wouldn't matter as much, right?
37:25
You could, you could make kind of a moral argument, but you
37:28
know, if it was the best system and if it did produce the most
37:31
economic growth, you could be like, hey, okay, that's pretty
37:33
legitimate. Like the argument we have to
37:36
make is that that it's not, that's not true, that's not true
37:39
at all and the issue is not it's it's not that you do it it's not
37:45
that you print the money. It's that the The act of
37:48
printing, the money, distorts I would train this as I've always
37:52
frame this as it distorts, the amount of information embedded
37:57
in the system. And so when you think of like
37:59
complex systems and you think of these very Dynamic emergent
38:05
complex systems, where a lot of spontaneous order manifest.
38:10
So, in economy is one of those. It's why the Soviet Union
38:13
failed, right? They had an emergent Dynamics on
38:16
taneous lior. It's system.
38:19
The economy that they tried to control from the top down.
38:22
Now they're examples an ecosystem, you can't plan a
38:25
forest they tried in Germany, it was a disaster and so you can
38:30
kind of look at those systems and say that there is embedded
38:34
information, there is intelligence within the system
38:38
and my argument with the money printing is that it distorts and
38:43
impairs the inherent information.
38:48
Seing in the complex system that is our economy.
38:51
And so, the money printing is bad because it is not the best
38:56
system. It doesn't work the best, it
38:58
distorts incentives. It distorts Capital formation
39:02
and it impairs this kind of complex Machinery that we all
39:07
rely on. Not just to live but to move
39:11
civilization forward and this goes to your point Nico of like
39:16
these other deterioration. Of Health in culture and you
39:21
know like beautiful buildings and all of these things that,
39:25
you know, you walk through. This is the third John harshad
39:28
out. But like you walk through New
39:29
York City. And if you see a beautiful
39:32
building, like a truly, beautiful building a building,
39:34
which like the Creator's, obviously cared about the
39:37
Aesthetics. It's detailed.
39:39
It's carved. It's beautiful.
39:43
And you look up when it was built, it's always before, 1930
39:47
John Has like he's going to do a whole thread on this, but he
39:51
photographs them and he checks their construction date.
39:55
And so coming back to my point about the progress of
39:59
civilization, right? Like these incentives and this
40:03
Machinery, the system in the information embedded in it.
40:06
Like as this gets distorted as it collapses, as it becomes,
40:12
less efficient, and less organic like you see this, like thrust
40:17
of Civilization start to deteriorate in some ways and its
40:22
broad. We've talked about this before.
40:24
I'm not I'm not comfortable reducing it all down to the
40:26
money and I think there's actually a larger a loss of like
40:31
like literally like a metaphysical void I think there
40:34
is a complete deconstruction of metaphysics and values.
40:38
There's kind of the postmodern condition, I think that played a
40:41
huge role but, you know, we can talk about the monetary side of
40:44
it and you just see the civilizational engine, Get
40:48
impaired and I'm highlighting that you know, making a Long
40:51
Point but I'm highlighting that because it's not just about
40:55
everybody having a good GDP growth.
40:58
It's not just about like enough stuff, right?
41:01
Like stuff is relatively Hollow if you're starving.
41:04
Yeah, you want more stuff. But to say that the only point
41:08
of human civilization is to create enough material goods for
41:12
us, all to be satiated it. Misses the mark of what it means
41:15
to be human and what it means to be.
41:18
Human is the advancement of of culture of Aesthetics of art of
41:24
purpose of having a cohesive cultural engine, that actually
41:30
moves us into the future. And so far from just impairing
41:34
the economic conditions, I actually think it is impaired,
41:37
our cultural standing and our cultural engine 100% And I love
41:44
what you said about post-modernism and I would even
41:48
Even say that Fiat breeds nihilism from which is, you
41:53
know, I would connect it with post-modernism and I would even
41:56
go a level below that. And I would say that the
42:00
specific not to get into any specifics on simply Bitcoin, we
42:03
don't lean left or right. We are on the party of Orange
42:06
versus party of green, but that being said that specific
42:11
ideology the postmodernist ideology and the nihilism that
42:15
comes with it, I think it's only viable.
42:18
With the money printer. Once you take the money, printer
42:21
out of that equation, I don't think that specific political
42:24
ideology is politically viable or economically viable.
42:29
They need to be able to have effective redistribution
42:32
mechanisms, one of which is obviously taxation.
42:36
That's a whole of the rabbit hole.
42:37
You know, people feel strongly about that.
42:40
But the one that they really get away with and the one that they
42:42
really use is the hidden tax, which is the hidden tax of
42:46
inflation, right? And I think a lot of people are
42:51
are rightly so very upset specifically the younger
42:55
Generations. They really feel like they got
42:58
the short end of the stick and I think that they inherently know
43:02
in their hearts that something is wrong, but they continue to
43:05
seek a political solution to which there is none.
43:08
The solution is the separation of money and state entirely,
43:12
Steven, what are your thoughts on that?
43:13
And then we'll pass it on to Jesse?
43:15
Yeah, you know exactly because it's the machinery.
43:18
It's the system itself, not in a political sense, but like the
43:21
information of the complex of urgent machine has been
43:25
impaired, right? So like, exactly, you try to
43:28
impose a political Solution on that doesn't work.
43:32
I would actually say I would like to draw like a connection.
43:34
I think the line between the, the kind of thread that connects
43:38
post-modernism and Fiat is that Fiat is a natural money under
43:45
post-modernism, what does that mean and why am I saying it?
43:47
It. So if I'm going to and my God if
43:50
anybody listens to this like there's so much contentious
43:53
debate on like what is post-modernism like shut up like
43:56
you guys know what I'm talking about.
43:58
People that listen to it that we critique that generally broadly
44:02
speaking like post-modernism argues against kind of the
44:08
inherent see or like the inherent realness of things that
44:13
things are essentially constructed in many ways through
44:16
our culture through our W through our beliefs and they
44:19
lack, they lack inherent reality.
44:22
There's like this sort of notion of like objective reality got
44:26
eaten away at and so under under an ideology under a philosophy
44:32
where everything is essentially constructed by man, there are no
44:37
outside realities. There's no inherent realities.
44:41
Why like the Fiat is a natural money because it's saying money
44:46
is not real. Real money has no external
44:50
reality. Money is social construct in
44:53
that sense, right? And to some degree, you know, to
44:57
throw them their bone, to some degree.
44:59
It is right. Because why does Bitcoin have
45:01
value well? Because in part we accept it as
45:06
money like there is a social element to money but that's not
45:09
the whole of it and they mistake it as like the whole of it.
45:13
That's all that money is. That's a part of what money is
45:17
but it's more Than that. And the other reasons Bitcoin
45:19
has value are because of its inherent objective qualities,
45:24
such as its decentralization, such as its ability to transfer
45:28
and store. Like those are not constructed.
45:31
Those are real realities and they're part of what gives it
45:35
value. But so Fiat becomes a natural
45:39
money under a society where the very notion of truth and the
45:43
Very notion of objective reality becomes chipped away at
45:47
question. And in dismantled until you have
45:49
a crisis of faith. And what is the crisis of faith
45:52
in the crisis of faith is in, you know, belief itself.
45:57
There is a question of belief itself and so Fiat becomes the
46:02
natural money in that because it is a nihilistic money.
46:05
It is an arbitrary money. It is a money that says, none of
46:09
this is real. Money is balance sheet points.
46:13
It's mmt right? It's just a counting points and
46:18
We created at whim to service. What is effectively Central
46:22
planning objectives, 100% 100% And and what's interesting to me
46:28
is to add to your point, Stephen is what happens to individuals.
46:36
You can even talk about it on a nation state level as well.
46:39
When I'm okay, ladies doing in El Salvador is absolutely
46:41
incredible and you could tell that it's changing the system
46:45
from within, right? And and it just, you know, seek
46:49
a general manager of Bitcoin magazine, good friend of mine,
46:54
the analogy, the way that he described it.
46:56
I want to get your thoughts on this.
46:57
Jesse is Bitcoin changes, your operating system and all of a
47:02
sudden, even with people is why I, this is why we try so hard on
47:05
simply to not get stuck in the left and right dichotomy, and
47:09
then the bullshit, right? We just what he said.
47:12
He's like. Look Bitcoin changes.
47:14
Fundamentally changes your operating system, and People
47:18
that are still on the Fiat operating system there on a
47:21
nihilistic operating system there on a materialistic
47:25
operating system there on an operating system that's in
47:28
parently disconnected from reality, unlike Bitcoin, that is
47:31
connected to reality via proof of work, right?
47:34
Is anchored to the universe to energy and it completely changes
47:39
your perspective on life and then all of a sudden, the
47:42
different ideological beliefs, don't matter anymore.
47:45
The Bitcoin becomes the Great unifier Fire.
47:48
And I've seen bit hardcore libertarian bitcoiners get along
47:53
with hardcore socialist bitcoiners and they get along
47:57
because they have that common denominator in that common
47:59
denominators Bitcoin. So Jesse, what are your thoughts
48:02
on this conversation? I know we got sidetracked a
48:04
little bit but I'm really enjoying this II.
48:09
Read quite a lot about this subject, Steven I do find it
48:12
very fascinating. I told you ahead of time I was
48:14
going to Sidetrack this conversation.
48:18
My wheelhouse to I wrote a piece on deflation versus inflation
48:23
and and what it means for civilization and and talks a lot
48:27
about how, you know, peak of of art and architecture was the end
48:32
of the, the Gilded Age turn of the century 1900 or so.
48:39
And so, I think that what CK was getting at about how it changes
48:42
your operating system, that's the core of it.
48:45
Is that the norm The norm is living on an on an inflationary
48:51
unit of account and that creates this flywheel constantly of
48:56
things get worse over time because a dollar gets you less
49:03
and so producers to keep their costs where you know, the same
49:09
have to cut their inputs, cut the quality of their of their
49:12
goods. It's where shrink flashin comes
49:15
from it's why it's wise A service seems to get worse over
49:20
time because businesses are trying to make the trying to get
49:25
by with with the same costs whenever and all the costs
49:29
around them are going up. So that's an inflationary world,
49:34
everything gets worse, and that's especially felt when it
49:37
comes to craftsmanship in the built environment and when it
49:41
comes to Art and and quality of goods, as well, you know, at a A
49:47
kitchen appliance of fridge from the 1950s can still work and
49:51
nowadays. We have planned obsolescence in
49:55
our appliances because we need to feed the Fiat machine and so
50:00
you have to keep purchasing things.
50:02
So going from that Norm which creates this nihilism and and
50:08
defeatism really of especially in younger Generations.
50:12
You can't buy a starter starter home here in Los Angeles.
50:16
Angelus is a million dollars and you know, that's that's a pretty
50:22
back-breaking for a young person.
50:25
And so what do you do instead you you Orient your life around
50:31
experiences, you know, you go to Coachella and that cost a
50:37
thousand dollars rather than a million dollars and you make
50:40
that your identity, but then you're living for the moment.
50:44
And that's Fiat world. And then when you make this
50:48
transition to bitcoin world, now you're on a deflationary
50:52
standard, your money gets more valuable over time.
50:56
It can buy you more Goods in the future than it can today.
51:01
And that changes everything and it's just really hard process.
51:04
Like it's a bumpy process. There's a lot of personal
51:08
volatility and like tension and cognitive dissonance as you go
51:11
through this transition. From Fiat world to bitcoin world
51:17
and embrace this deflationary unit of account and the result
51:23
of that is in deflationary World Goods, get better over time in
51:27
the same way that Goods get worse over time.
51:29
And when you're using an inflationary unit of account
51:34
Goods, get better over time with with Bitcoin.
51:36
So, and that happened on the gold standard that happened.
51:40
You know, we had 150 years in the US, After the American
51:44
Revolution up until the creation of Central Banking.
51:49
And, and in that window, prices were stable because it was, it
51:58
was all pegged to gold value of the price of everything was
52:03
relatively stable for 150 years but during that you have
52:07
technological, deflation as Jeff Booth would point out.
52:10
So the ability to create Goods Gets cheaper.
52:14
It's easier to create Goods but you want to keep your prices the
52:19
same so you make those goods better and so everything gets
52:23
better over time on just a gold standard which is flat and here
52:29
whose Bitcoin where it's a massively deflationary standard
52:33
and that's going to be an incredible thing for the world
52:39
even though it's really bumpy to transition from this world view.
52:42
View of nihilism and chasing for the moment living for
52:45
experiences and shifting towards a future oriented world view,
52:50
where you're planning your saving for the future because
52:53
you know how much it's going to be worth in the future and
52:57
that's how Humanity should be. That's that's investing on an
53:00
individual scale and that's a good Force for Humanity and for
53:07
the world in general. And you know, I I just think
53:11
about the Bitcoin futures. This bright glowing sunlit
53:15
place. That is full of Hope, and
53:19
optimism, and and prosperity, and planning for the future.
53:26
Yeah, 100%, it completely it, it changes.
53:31
And I love the way that you broke it down about how the
53:34
younger generation are living in the moment and a little bit of a
53:38
troll, but I'm also being serious, right?
53:41
You know, if you have the Bitcoin conference and of
53:43
course, you know, the Pacific Bitcoin Festival, right?
53:46
And these are festivals and conferences of freedom and
53:49
prosperity and optimism about the future determine nbk's.
53:56
Handles called deterministic optimism.
53:58
I love that when you know, you're living on a Bitcoin
54:01
standard, but the on the other side of the world in Davos, they
54:07
also have a conference called the world economic forum.
54:10
And the reason I'm bringing that up, right?
54:12
Is because their own slogans are even saying the quiet part out
54:17
loud, they're telling you, you'll own nothing and you'll be
54:20
happy, right? So, they're describing, Jesse
54:25
what it is. What they're describing the
54:30
situation that of which they created themselves.
54:32
By the way, did you guys know that the world economic Forum
54:34
was founded in 1971? Check it right now?
54:37
I did know that. Yep, literally, the reality is
54:42
Stranger Than Fiction, anyways. So, you know, not to get into
54:45
the any of the crazy stuff. But I guess what I'm trying to
54:49
say is you clearly have these two very, very very different
54:55
systems. And I think at this point
54:58
advocating for the system that steals from you, which is the
55:04
system of Fiat, the future iteration of what they want that
55:08
system to be, which is Central Bank, digital currencies, and
55:12
all the Godlike. All even more Godlike Powers
55:16
that's going to give these bureaucrats in order to, you
55:20
know, centrally try to centrally plan Society to create this
55:24
perfect. I don't even want to go down.
55:26
Rabbit hole but you guys know where I'm going with this.
55:28
And then the other option is Bitcoin, right?
55:31
Where the individual by Taking Back monetary sovereignty by
55:36
taking self custody after takes off custody?
55:38
That's step one. Right?
55:40
Gets to have the ability to plan for the future, which I think
55:46
was completely robbed. It was stolen from us.
55:50
If you're under the age of 35, I said this uh, Pacific Bitcoin,
55:53
you don't own anything, you don't own anything, you Can't
55:56
own anything. You've been out price you said
55:58
you said La, I live in Miami. It's it's nuts.
56:02
Right? The the you know, real estate
56:04
here so unless like your Ultra successful or you're very
56:07
privileged or you got into Bitcoin early, you know, you're
56:10
going to, you're going to stay a renter for the rest of your life
56:13
and, and that kind of changes your mental perception of life.
56:17
And it's what you said, Jesse what is what is the natural G?
56:21
Knee-jerk reaction to that? Let me just let me just buy
56:24
ticket in. Miami is ultra Ultra Music,
56:27
Festival. Let me just spend $1000, get VIP
56:30
tickets to ultra might as well do that, because this is
56:34
hopeless, you know, and I think kind of tie this in with Michael
56:39
Sailors domain which he's been sitting on for quite a while
56:42
quite a long time. If you go to hope.com, it takes
56:46
you to a Bitcoin educational website I think Bitcoin is that
56:50
Bitcoin is Hope and Corey says it best.
56:53
You know, Bitcoin will lead us to the bright orange future
56:55
Steven And now any thoughts on that?
56:57
Yeah, I actually. So I actually think that part of
57:02
this whole thread you guys are pulling on is that under Fiat
57:08
and the nihilism that is so prevalent in society, and under
57:12
kind of like reductionistic materialism, right?
57:15
So like you know, nihilism like kind of there's no inherent
57:20
values, nothing matters in a certain sense and reductionistic
57:23
materialism. All that S, the only thing that
57:27
matters is like the things in front of us.
57:29
The objects, the matter, the only inevitable outcome of that
57:33
is consumerism, right? It is just like, well, if
57:36
nothing really matters in any sort of inherent way, and the
57:40
only thing that exists in this world, this stuff, then I'm just
57:43
going to go get stuff. I'm just going to go do stuff.
57:46
I'm going to acquire things. And so not only do I see like
57:50
Bitcoin agree with you guys that like Bitcoin in a hard money
57:53
standard, it has this influence on.
57:56
Stuff on the things we build they become better over time.
58:00
They become beautiful they kind of it reverses some of this like
58:05
really really you know poor consumerism.
58:09
But I actually think that the more profound thing is that the
58:13
focus on the quality of our stuff is itself.
58:17
Fiat like is itself a byproduct of that.
58:22
And if you look at really healthy thriving civilization,
58:26
Is there are not as concerned with stuff.
58:29
There are these higher-order virtues.
58:33
There are these higher order, sir, sit sources of meaning and
58:37
purpose where stuff takes a bit of a backseat.
58:41
It's not that you don't want good things, and I think these
58:44
civilizations didn't produce beautiful or powerful material,
58:48
objects and systems, but that, that is not the driving
58:52
orientation of one's life. The point of Of a good human
58:57
life is not to acquire the best things to have the most stuff
59:02
for the highest, or even the most beautiful stuff even the
59:05
most functional stuff, but it is to spend one's life in the
59:10
pursuit of something, which transcends oneself to spend
59:14
one's life in the pursuit of, of virtue of meaning of purpose of
59:20
the cultivation of the self. And what I actually hope is that
59:24
far from just being something. Which improves our economic
59:28
system, it will I actually hope that you know in this in this
59:32
resolution Society actually reorients from the material to
59:38
let's call it let's call these things like transcendental.
59:43
Right to Virtue to meaning to purpose to these forces which
59:47
transcend simply being purely material and you know inundate
59:52
and enervate the human life with vitality.
59:56
T, right? Like that's the civilizations.
59:58
I look back on where you can see kind of the premise C and the
1:00:03
importance to, which these, you know, these Transcendent
1:00:08
concerns flowed in, in through society.
1:00:12
And I think just limiting or focusing or centering the
1:00:17
discussion of how hard money standard improves our material
1:00:22
culture. I think actually runs through
1:00:24
the same You know, outcomes of where Fiat has got us.
1:00:30
Where the only thing we can see like our vision has become
1:00:34
grounded. We're like we're at the, you
1:00:37
know, the base level of the forest or the mountain.
1:00:39
And all we can see is this one layer.
1:00:42
And, you know, I think it actually there's this
1:00:44
opportunity to rise up and to see from a different Vantage
1:00:48
Point 100% And I love what you said about purpose.
1:00:54
I wrote an article for silla Tony One, I don't write very
1:00:57
often is one of the only articles I wrote and apparently
1:00:59
a lot of resonated with a lot of people because it got it got me
1:01:02
invited to podcast but the name of the article is Bitcoin.
1:01:06
Gave me purpose. I don't think human beings.
1:01:10
I think, I think you need a reason to get up in the morning.
1:01:13
But even if you're very wealthy, like even if you don't have to
1:01:16
work, you know, save retire, whatever.
1:01:19
Whatever you want to call it. Yeah.
1:01:21
You still need a reason to get up.
1:01:23
You still need a reason to live. I think it's hardwired In human
1:01:27
beings, right? And I think what, you know, in
1:01:30
this post modernist world that we live in, it's almost like no,
1:01:35
you don't need that. You know, you can replace that
1:01:37
with Netflix and chill. You can replace that by watching
1:01:40
the game. You can replace that by buying
1:01:43
the latest. I don't even know because I'm so
1:01:45
disconnected from that world. The, the latest Louis V bag.
1:01:50
I don't know, dude, I literally have 30 of these sweaters and I
1:01:54
rotate them every single day. I I just don't care at that
1:01:58
point, but yeah, yeah, you know, II really do believe that
1:02:05
without a without a purpose. You know.
1:02:07
Are you really living? Yeah.
1:02:09
Are you really living right? So there's a battle over the
1:02:14
very definition of The Human Condition, right?
1:02:17
And the, the the kind of opposing side in many ways as
1:02:23
used a tricky tactic, which is You know, essentially to say
1:02:28
that it doesn't matter that us striving to answer the question,
1:02:36
what is the, what is the point? Who are we after all, what does
1:02:40
it mean to be human for that to be decentered to be removed from
1:02:46
Focus as like the relevancy of everything we do?
1:02:51
Schrodinger had a phenomenal quote that basically said, as
1:02:55
much And said that. Like if the point of your
1:02:58
science is not a Schrodinger, was like one of the preeminent
1:03:02
scientists of the early 1900's, I believe real Titan.
1:03:06
He said, if the point of your science is not to answer
1:03:10
plutonia sis question, which is and who, who, who are we after
1:03:16
all that, if science, if our philosophy, if our economy, if
1:03:22
our culture, if the end result of all of that, Striving.
1:03:27
If all of those efforts is not to try to Define to illuminate
1:03:33
The Human Condition and who are we after all?
1:03:37
And the answer to that can never be.
1:03:39
Found in five percent year-over-year, GDP growth you
1:03:44
can fuck right off like you cannot find that there.
1:03:48
I finally have something to disagree with Stephen on.
1:03:52
Yeah, I think I think that I think the Maslow's Pyramid
1:03:57
striving for the top is, is the noble ideal and a way to find
1:04:07
fulfillment, but I think that what Bitcoin gives to the world
1:04:12
is an engine to help. satisfy the lower tiers of Maslow's
1:04:19
pyramid for so many people in the world, that that currently
1:04:22
don't have those things fully met and that through five
1:04:27
percent GDP growth that you know, just take the microcosm of
1:04:33
like what Bitcoin can do in terms of the energy grid for in
1:04:36
a place like Africa places where let's say you don't currently
1:04:41
have clean drinking water and then because of Bitcoin mining.
1:04:46
You can create a local grid based on unused hydropower which
1:04:51
can create like allow for other industrial applications to show
1:04:58
up create industry in that location and develop the kind of
1:05:03
infrastructure necessary to make it worthwhile to have a water
1:05:10
system where you have clean drinking water and suddenly
1:05:13
you've elevated the quality of life.
1:05:15
For for this whole region. And I think that that that
1:05:21
happens through the GDP growth that Bitcoin makes possible.
1:05:26
And so I think it's like yes the pyramid, Maslow's Apex is the
1:05:33
you know it's Nirvana, it's aspiration of everyone,
1:05:37
self-actualization it should be and it can be in the trans
1:05:41
metals were all about that for good reason but then How do you
1:05:46
get there? How do you get eight billion
1:05:48
people to a place where they can focus on higher aspiration?
1:05:53
And I think the Bitcoin is, you know through five percent GDP
1:05:56
growth makes it possible to get there even though I would say
1:06:00
that. I so I definitely agree with you
1:06:03
that Bitcoin covers the real lack.
1:06:08
The real material lack for so many and that's a huge positive,
1:06:12
that's hugely important and that, that can be a barrier.
1:06:15
Barrier, I would say that not having enough will prevent you
1:06:20
from rising, but it will not cause you to rise to have
1:06:26
enough. And and so, what I'm really kind
1:06:28
of getting at is not that people cannot be impaired but that
1:06:33
making the world more productive on its own, will not shift this.
1:06:37
It will not shift this cultural focus in a sense.
1:06:43
And, you know, the evidence I would put forward is like Look
1:06:46
at, I mean, you know, you have a country in like you can even
1:06:49
kind of, just let's just look at the top 30 percent of Americans,
1:06:52
some of the most prosperous people who have ever lived and
1:06:55
they're all mired in nihilism in purpose.
1:06:58
Yes. So bright on its own it won't,
1:07:02
but if it's not there, you, yes, it will impair you.
1:07:05
So, I think we're aligned, it's just different.
1:07:09
And I think that, I think that the top 30 percent the top 1% of
1:07:14
wealth in America, They're still subject to the same culture, the
1:07:18
same chasing dollars, the same nihilism, they come out of a
1:07:22
century of Fiat. 50 years, in particular of social Decay from
1:07:28
from this flywheel of everything getting worse over time.
1:07:32
And then you switch over to this other thing where you sort of
1:07:35
bootstrap the conditions of the Gilded Age again.
1:07:39
And of course, technology is going to make that different.
1:07:41
It's not like we're going to go back in time in terms of
1:07:45
quality. Goods and politics and all that.
1:07:48
And in fact, we're going to have bigger problems with, with the
1:07:52
panoptix on potential given how capable technology is now
1:07:59
especially with AI. But hopefully, you know,
1:08:04
hopefully, you can, you can navigate all that and get on to
1:08:08
this positive flywheel of things getting better over time, which
1:08:12
will reinstall the values that have been that have eroded away.
1:08:15
Away over time it, you know, in terms of aesthetic Goods but
1:08:20
also family values because you know, if you're optimistic about
1:08:24
the future, you have a family and you care about that family
1:08:28
and you're in your investing in, you know your kids and I think
1:08:33
it strengthens communities to have to be living around a bunch
1:08:36
of families that are that have family values.
1:08:41
And so we can we can bootstrap a positive flywheel that can you
1:08:46
Lead us back to a place where we can start to Aspire to the
1:08:50
transcendentalist ideals again, when currently were preoccupied
1:08:54
with the rat race? Yeah, yeah.
1:08:57
Anyways, gentlemen, it's been an honor and a privilege to have
1:09:02
you both. I really really enjoyed were you
1:09:05
know where this conversation went?
1:09:08
Thank you both of you for coming on.
1:09:12
So I'm going to go Steven, why don't you tell everybody Buddy,
1:09:16
a little bit about Swan private a little bit about yourself.
1:09:20
And guys, if you want an optimistic, Twitter account to
1:09:25
follow inspirational, I might add in terms of health and
1:09:30
Health and Welfare, the kind of the same thing, right?
1:09:33
And just inspirational in terms of, you know, just walking
1:09:37
getting son, you know, doing the the basics that I think a lot of
1:09:41
people forget because, you know, they're in office or you know
1:09:45
They're they're they're getting lost in the, they're getting
1:09:48
lost in the sauce of life. I really, really recommend
1:09:51
Stevens Twitter, at least to me. It's been an inspiration.
1:09:56
I consider also Stephen a friend and of course we work together
1:09:59
at at Swan. So Steven why do you tell
1:10:02
everybody where they could find you on the interwebs and a
1:10:05
little bit about Swan private? Yeah, absolutely.
1:10:08
So I would just search my full name on Twitter, Stephen ljubka
1:10:13
Leu bka the handle Liz aambala huddle but you won't be able to
1:10:17
spell that. Yeah and so glad to connect on
1:10:22
Twitter, I run the private team for Swan and so private is our
1:10:26
concierge team for high net worth investors for businesses.
1:10:31
You know, corporations trusts family offices, retirement
1:10:35
products, all those sort of things, all the kind of more
1:10:37
advanced kind of offerings. We have one of the leading.
1:10:42
We have the leading concierge service in the industry.
1:10:44
What does that really mean? Means that like every Private
1:10:47
Client, they get a dedicated representative that they can
1:10:50
text or call get on the phone with like we walk people through
1:10:55
Bitcoin and hold their hand and it's been.
1:10:57
I mean, it's been incredibly impactful for, you know, for our
1:11:01
clients, our users, and the people that have chosen to trust
1:11:04
us and work with Swan, because there's so many people out in
1:11:07
the world that if they don't have someone to hold their hand,
1:11:10
they're not going to adopt Bitcoin.
1:11:12
Now they're going to wait, right?
1:11:14
It still takes a level. Love.
1:11:17
You know, of being a little taking, a little risk of doing
1:11:20
something new of stepping outside of the box to really go
1:11:23
into Bitcoin now and really make a significant position.
1:11:27
And for a lot of people, they want to know that they're in
1:11:29
good hands. And that there's someone they
1:11:31
can call and talk to. And that's what we've built with
1:11:33
Swan private. I've I've led the team since day
1:11:36
one. So you know it's been a pleasure
1:11:38
to spin it up and pleasure that you know, I mean an honor that
1:11:41
Corey trusted me to do that. It's grown tremendously.
1:11:46
We also put Out research, we have in-person events in Miami
1:11:50
and La for private clients. Swan conference.
1:11:57
So if you got questions or email me at Stephen, it's one Bitcoin.
1:12:01
If you guys are going to be in Miami, the private teams going
1:12:04
to be down in Miami, definitely come.
1:12:06
We have a booth. We're going to be at events.
1:12:09
So reach out will definitely be tweeting about it.
1:12:12
Pleasure to be here. Awesome, thanks, Steven and
1:12:15
Jesse. Why don't you tell everybody
1:12:17
where they can find you on the interwebs?
1:12:19
And also, man, this is the first time we've really got into chat
1:12:23
on, on a podcast. So it's truly an honor.
1:12:25
Honored to to have you on. I'm a huge fan of your work.
1:12:30
I've read it multiple times and thank you, man.
1:12:33
Really appreciate you coming. Oh my pleasure to be here.
1:12:36
That's been fun to do this for first time.
1:12:38
Hopefully come back again. Yeah, you people can find me.
1:12:43
There's my handle croesus BTC. I have a newsletter that I write
1:12:50
called once in a species. You can find that at once in the
1:12:53
species.com, where I put out Bitcoin educational content and
1:12:57
Bitcoin, in macro updates, weekly, you can sign up for free
1:13:01
and get that in your inbox. And I also am the co-founder and
1:13:06
CEO of on-ramp Bitcoin, which is a Bitcoin trust.
1:13:12
So what we have set up over the last eight months and have only
1:13:18
recently launched about a month ago, publicly is a trust that
1:13:24
isn't designed by bitcoiners. Hours to do what grayscale has
1:13:28
done but try to do it better than grayscale.
1:13:31
So the gold standard is still self custody of your Bitcoin and
1:13:36
Swan Bitcoin is a fantastic way to acquire your Bitcoin and get
1:13:42
ready for self custody. But there are a lot of people
1:13:44
out there who end up getting exposure to bitcoin via trust
1:13:51
products like grayscale and these trust products.
1:13:55
Designed to not let people withdraw their Bitcoin and and
1:14:00
take self custody. And so what we've done is set up
1:14:03
on ramp bitcoiners as I trust vehicle, or if you're not yet
1:14:06
ready to do self custody, but you want exposure to bitcoin,
1:14:09
and you want to make sure that you can take self custody
1:14:12
further down the road, you can come in with us.
1:14:15
Get your exposure have it sit in the trust and then when you're
1:14:18
ready in a few years, when you're, when you're ready to
1:14:21
handle, cryptographic materials you can take self custody and
1:14:24
withdraw your and, you know, be on your own from, from that
1:14:29
point on, in terms of security and safety keeping.
1:14:34
So you can find that an on-ramp Bitcoin.com and you can reach
1:14:38
out and schedule a time to chat with us.
1:14:40
Well, like I said, Jessie. Stephen, thank you so much for
1:14:45
joining me today on simply Bitcoin IRL.
1:14:48
If you guys don't mind, hang out in the back for a sec, I'm going
1:14:51
to close it, guys. Thank you so much for tuning in
1:14:54
to another episode of We Bitcoin IR L will be back tomorrow in
1:14:58
the live show. Cory has me doing things, so
1:15:01
going to have Opti and Mike our own Mike Hobart fill in but we
1:15:05
will be back in the live show 12:15 p.m.
1:15:08
Eastern Standard Time for another episode of Simply
1:15:11
Bitcoin live. Until then guys, enjoy the rest
1:15:15
of your night. We'll see you tomorrow.
1:15:17
Peace out.