Latest / KDAV Radio / The Sean McDowell Show - 5 Ways Apologetics is Shifting (ft. Gavin Ortlund)

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The Sean McDowell Show - 5 Ways Apologetics is Shifting (ft. Gavin Ortlund) · KDAV Radio

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Gavin Orland, you recently dropped a video on how apologetics
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: is changing.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: Let's just step back a bit and look at the
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: landscape that is reshaping Christian apologetics right now.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: And I love it because I think about that all
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: the time. You raised five trends that I thought were
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: very insightful. We're going to walk through them one by one.
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  Speaker 2: There's more of a sense of people coming to conclusions
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: based upon vibes, based upon identity. Now, unfortunately, I think
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: we have to say there's a decrease of critical thinking.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: The prediction is next year will be the first year
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: in human history that more human beings in our culture
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  Speaker 2: than read a book. And that alarmed me.
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  Speaker 3: I've never heard that.
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  Speaker 1: First off, when did you say you started doing apologetics, roughly?
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  Speaker 2: I think probably around 2019, maybe. Oh, okay. So well
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: into my adult years and after my formal education, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I've always been interested in apologetics. So back when I
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  Speaker 2: was in college and early 20s, I would watch debates
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: between William Lane Craig and Christopher Hitchens. Of course. The
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: one here. It was here. That's right. I remember that
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  Speaker 2: one vividly and others. I've always had a curiosity. And
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: then somewhere along the way, I just got fascinated in
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: how can you build a case that is human, that
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  Speaker 2: is compassionate, That tells a story. It leans into narrative
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  Speaker 2: and then appeals to beauty. So I started researching that.
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  Speaker 2: It began with academic interests. And then my heart has
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  Speaker 2: just been drawn to try to help people. And I
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  Speaker 2: just see a lot of questions right now. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: really the last seven years or so, I've gotten more
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  Speaker 2: and more increasingly pulled into it.
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  Speaker 1: Well, by here at Biola and those who are watching
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: this are going, this doesn't look like your studio. A
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: skunk got into our studio last night. So we threw
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  Speaker 1: this together in my office at the last minute. Thank
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  Speaker 1: you for flexing with me. But my journey started here. Probably,
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  Speaker 1: even though, I mean, growing up with an apologist father,
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  Speaker 1: I've been kind of doing it on some level my
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  Speaker 1: whole life. But when I decided I loved this was 1998,
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  Speaker 1: took a class with J.P. Moreland. And it's the first time,
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  Speaker 1: my dad does historical apologetics. First time I learned philosophical apologetics.
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  Speaker 1: And Gavin, I was hooked. So I kind of started
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  Speaker 1: at that point. So almost like 28 years in different capacities,
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  Speaker 1: I've been doing apologetics. In the time you've done this,
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  Speaker 1: or at least been interested in it, how significant would
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  Speaker 1: you describe the shift of how we practice apologetics, the issues,
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  Speaker 1: and say that five or 10 year window?
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  Speaker 2: Okay. So, and I'm really curious what you'll think about
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  Speaker 2: this too, but I don't see it as a massive
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  Speaker 2: pendulum swing, like a 10 out of 10. I see
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  Speaker 2: it as a little bit more of a shift of emphasis.
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  Speaker 2: And I think sometimes people put so much focus on
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  Speaker 2: methodology and what's the latest trend, what's the latest argument,
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  Speaker 2: and there are these changes that happen. But underneath that,
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  Speaker 2: some of these arguments are kind of time-tested and they
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  Speaker 2: tend to endure. So, for example, one of the big
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  Speaker 2: things I'm interested in is truth, goodness, and beauty.
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  Speaker 1: Amen.
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  Speaker 2: How does apologetics appeal to all three? And the tilt
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  Speaker 2: in my heart and my interest, and I think with
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  Speaker 2: not just me, It's a little more towards the goodness
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  Speaker 2: and beauty questions right now. But the truth questions still matter.
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  Speaker 2: And that's not an absolute shift. It's just maybe a
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  Speaker 2: little bit more of one of emphasis. So I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: I'd put it more like a 5 out of 10
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  Speaker 2: or a 4 out of 10 or something like that. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So if I took a 10 scale, I'd probably say
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  Speaker 1: more 6 or 7 for me.
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  Speaker 3: No, I mean, my father, I've got a.
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  Speaker 1: Little different perspective talking to my dad who's 87 when
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  Speaker 1: he started seeing as a kid starting the early 2000s.
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  Speaker 1: So if I look at it through that span, I
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  Speaker 1: never would have guessed that the issues that we'd be
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  Speaker 1: talking about today, we're talking about the way we're talking
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  Speaker 1: about it, the manner in which apologetics is done. I
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  Speaker 1: think it's pretty radical. We'll get into some of that,
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  Speaker 1: but that's totally fair. So you have this video that
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  Speaker 1: we're going to link to below. I want people to
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  Speaker 1: watch it where you talk about kind of five trends
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  Speaker 1: that you've seen. And let's walk through these and then
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  Speaker 1: just talk about what it would mean for apologetics.
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  Speaker 3: And they're all creatively titled. The first one is.
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  Speaker 1: Called the post-secular jungle. Tell us what you mean by
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  Speaker 1: that and what you see.
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  Speaker 2: So this is especially thinking of maybe like the last
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  Speaker 2: 10 years. So it probably could apply going back earlier too.
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  Speaker 2: But if I go back in my mind to like 2015, 2010,
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  Speaker 2: a little further, there was more of a sense of
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  Speaker 2: the new atheist movement was trendy. In some circles, it
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  Speaker 2: was cool and it was pushing forward. It had a
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  Speaker 2: little bit of momentum. And even like things adjacent to
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  Speaker 2: new atheism proper. So just a secular mentality felt like
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  Speaker 2: a pretty common and increasing perspective that you feel out there.
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  Speaker 2: And my sense is, and I think the sociology bears
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  Speaker 2: this out to some extent. I'm always trying to figure
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  Speaker 2: out how much.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.
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  Speaker 2: But since around 2020, it just feels different. It feels like...
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  Speaker 2: that movement has lost momentum. And it feels like many,
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  Speaker 2: many people are just open to ask questions. Now, the
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  Speaker 2: reason I say jungle is I don't think it's necessarily
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  Speaker 2: a kind of coherent response toward Christianity. It seems like
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  Speaker 2: it's much more just smorgasbord, lots of different things out there,
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  Speaker 2: and even some pretty dark forms of spirituality, which is alarming.
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  Speaker 2: So I think I don't necessarily feel like apologetics is
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  Speaker 2: less challenging now. I just think it's a different landscape,
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  Speaker 2: almost with more issues on the table.
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  Speaker 1: The way you frame that, I would agree 100%. And
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  Speaker 1: I think there's enough voices saying this. So, for example,
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  Speaker 1: Ross Douthat, who recently left New York Times, Catholic, brilliant thinker,
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  Speaker 1: and wrote a book called, I think, I believe, or
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  Speaker 1: why I believe recently, an apologetic book, came out maybe 2024.
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  Speaker 1: And he said when he started maybe 15 years ago
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  Speaker 1: at the New York Times, there was a strong kind
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  Speaker 1: of staunch secular belief voice from his experience, little interest
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  Speaker 1: in spiritual things. And over the time he was there
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  Speaker 1: as a calmness and opinion writer, he said there was
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  Speaker 1: kind of an openness and an interest in largely that
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  Speaker 1: secular audience, which mirrors my own experience and mirrors yours. Now,
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  Speaker 1: the other thing he says, which a lot of other
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  Speaker 1: writers have weighed into as well, is that it's not
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  Speaker 1: like it's a shift back towards the Bible or Christianity.
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  Speaker 1: It's like now we have psychedelics and this fascination in
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  Speaker 1: UFOs and new age. Those things were there, but just
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  Speaker 1: because secularism is being challenged, I think, intellectually and experientially
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  Speaker 1: doesn't mean people are turning back towards Christianity. I think
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  Speaker 1: jungle is the right word that there's like a now
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  Speaker 1: an openness in a way there wasn't in the past,
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  Speaker 1: but everybody's weighing into that also differently. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And if there's one thing that I could say that
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  Speaker 2: just gives me hope, Because with each of these, it's
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  Speaker 2: really easy for Christians to be afraid. And I completely
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  Speaker 2: understand that. But at the same time, I always want
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  Speaker 2: us to sort of lean forward toward the world with
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  Speaker 2: hope and compassion.
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  Speaker 3: Amen.
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  Speaker 2: And not just see the problems and retreat. And so
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  Speaker 2: if there's one opportunity here, it is people are looking
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  Speaker 2: for answers. People are asking deep questions. A lot of people,
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  Speaker 2: there's an old Keith Green song from eons ago.
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  Speaker 1: You remember?
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  Speaker 2: Love it.
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  Speaker 3: No, I love Keith Green. Keep going.
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  Speaker 2: People need the Lord. There's this little phrase. I just
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  Speaker 2: think of this because I used it as an illustration
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  Speaker 2: in my chapel message yesterday. He says, at the end
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  Speaker 2: of broken dreams, Jesus is the open door. And it
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  Speaker 2: was just making me think and giving me compassion for
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  Speaker 2: people in our culture, a lot of whom are at
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  Speaker 2: the end of broken dreams. They've pursued something and it
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  Speaker 2: hasn't really worked out. And so they're kind of looking
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  Speaker 2: around saying, What is there ultimately that gives hope and
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  Speaker 2: meaning to my life? And they may be turning in
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  Speaker 2: all different kinds of directions. The good news is, how
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  Speaker 2: is there an open door for the gospel with that?
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  Speaker 2: And of course, we want to direct people to Jesus,
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  Speaker 2: who's the answer to all of that.
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  Speaker 3: Amen to that. And I appreciate that you bring it
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  Speaker 3: back to hope.
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  Speaker 1: And I think about, like, my father's told me when
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  Speaker 1: he started doing apologetics, he's like, literally nobody was doing it.
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  Speaker 3: There's Francis Schaeffer.
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  Speaker 2: There's C.S. Lewis.
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  Speaker 1: There's nobody speaking on college campuses. They hadn't written books
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  Speaker 1: like More Than a Carpenter. We're going to talk about
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  Speaker 1: your book, Why Christianity Makes Sense, which is awesome. But
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  Speaker 1: the idea of a small apologetic book, like More Than
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  Speaker 1: a Carpenter was the first. Those kind of things didn't exist.
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  Speaker 1: And so if we have that perspective, like there's so
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  Speaker 1: many people doing good apologetics on YouTube and on books
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  Speaker 1: and in the church. That alone should give us some encouragement. But,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, he also built it in me. He would
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  Speaker 1: always say, he's like, son, I'm ready to attack hell
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  Speaker 1: with a squirt gun. It's like we don't have an
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  Speaker 1: option to despair.
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  Speaker 3: We can't.
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  Speaker 1: We have to be positive in the way that you
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  Speaker 1: framed it. Now, I'm curious in your life and your channel,
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  Speaker 1: your book, Why Christianity Makes Sense, feels like a timeless
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  Speaker 1: apologetic to me.
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  Speaker 3: And here's what I mean by this.
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  Speaker 1: I break up apologetics into timeless issues, questions people have
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  Speaker 1: always asked and always will ask. Is there a life
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  Speaker 1: after death? Do we have a soul? Does God exist?
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  Speaker 1: Is there right and wrong?
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  Speaker 3: Is there meaning?
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  Speaker 1: But then there's timely questions brought on by our cultural moment,
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  Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, maybe rampant pornography raises new questions. Things like
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  Speaker 1: Israel now is a question that people weren't asking in
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  Speaker 1: the past. How do you balance, given that we're not
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  Speaker 1: only in this secular jungle, there's timely issues we want
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  Speaker 1: to address, but timeless ones. How do you balance that
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  Speaker 1: in your own ministry before we get to the second trend?
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  Speaker 2: My best effort is use the timely unto the timeless.
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  Speaker 2: So if a presenting issue comes up, maybe AI, for example.
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  Speaker 2: Everybody's talking about AI right now, and a lot of
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  Speaker 2: us are alarmed at what the impact is. right? How
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  Speaker 2: can that be a springboard into deeper questions? Now, the
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  Speaker 2: danger there is I could trivialize the particular timely question,
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  Speaker 2: which I don't want to do that. I want to
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  Speaker 2: give that its full due. But I think there are
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  Speaker 2: ways to springboard to bigger issues that are sometimes behind
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  Speaker 2: or underneath the timely issue. You know, like behind AI
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  Speaker 2: is a question of, well, what is consciousness? And then ultimately,
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  Speaker 2: what's a human being? What does it mean to be human?
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  Speaker 2: And so I like to try to springboard to those
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  Speaker 2: deeper questions. And you're right, the book, Why Christianity Makes Sense,
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  Speaker 2: which came out one week ago from today, as we're
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  Speaker 2: recording this, is in the timeless category. I tried to
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  Speaker 2: distill everything that I've done in apologetics and put it
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  Speaker 2: into one book and kind of pour my heart into it.
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  Speaker 3: I noticed it's shorter, by the way, than the last version.
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  Speaker 1: When I helped update More Than a Carpenter, I was like,
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to make this even shorter and tighter. Sounds
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  Speaker 1: like you had the same idea there.
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  Speaker 3: We will get to that.
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  Speaker 1: But I think what I found is that in apologetics,
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  Speaker 1: like during the New Atheists, it was like, does God exist?
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  Speaker 3: Is the Bible true?
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  Speaker 2: Is God good?
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  Speaker 1: Now it's like, oh, no, you got to be ready
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  Speaker 1: to defend against Islam. Oh, you got to be ready
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  Speaker 1: to defend and think about like psychedelics. You got to
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  Speaker 1: have a biblical view of Israel. It's almost like there's
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  Speaker 1: so many more issues than in the past that And
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  Speaker 1: so we have to be that much more equipped to
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  Speaker 1: address them. Okay, let's keep going. Your second one, I thought,
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  Speaker 1: great title is Fragmented Echo Chambers.
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  Speaker 3: Tell us what you mean by that.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so imagery, I'll start with some imagery here. 10
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  Speaker 2: years ago, and this is a little anecdotal. So to me,
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  Speaker 2: it felt like there is a cultural divide and it's
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  Speaker 2: almost like you're standing at the beach and waves are
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  Speaker 2: coming in closer and closer. You're feeling this cultural pressure
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  Speaker 2: against you. And the cultural pressure is, is discernible. You
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  Speaker 2: can kind of see the contours of this worldview. Now
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  Speaker 2: it feels like you're walking through a convention center, just
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  Speaker 2: like you said. There's so many different issues that come up.
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  Speaker 2: And on Monday, I might be sharing the gospel. The
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  Speaker 2: conversation goes one way. On Tuesday, I'm sharing the gospel.
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  Speaker 2: It goes a completely different way. On Wednesday, different than that.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know whether the objections are going to be
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  Speaker 2: right-coded or left-coded in advance. You never know. They're all
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  Speaker 2: over the map.
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  Speaker 3: Right-coded, left-coded, you mean like liberal, conservative?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Where they're coming from?
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  Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, kind of what are the sensitivities and impulses
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  Speaker 2: behind some of the objections? Those can come from the
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  Speaker 2: right or the left. And you never know what you're
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  Speaker 2: going to get. And so I just think it's a
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  Speaker 2: more diverse world. And of course, social media and the
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  Speaker 2: algorithms are a big factor here because we're just following
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  Speaker 2: our feed. And some people really are down the rabbit trail,
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  Speaker 2: getting influenced toward a particular perspective. There's just a loss
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  Speaker 2: of cohesive, singular American culture, it feels like. And we're
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  Speaker 2: just all in our own little box. And of course,
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  Speaker 2: that's not totally true, but it feels more true now
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  Speaker 2: than 10 years ago. I don't know if you sense
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  Speaker 2: that or not. Maybe I'm spending too much time on YouTube.
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  Speaker 1: No, I spend time on YouTube, travel, talk with people.
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  Speaker 1: I definitely, I sense that within the church and I
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  Speaker 1: sense that outside of the church. So I think in
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  Speaker 1: some ways the church is a microcosm of that. So
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  Speaker 1: the lack of a larger American identity, things that we
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  Speaker 1: could agree on, it feels kind of the same in
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  Speaker 1: the church. Like five or 10 years ago, people, I'm like, well,
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  Speaker 1: we can lock arms with, for the sake of the gospel.
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  Speaker 1: Now it's harder to lock arms with people because there's
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  Speaker 1: so many more issues that either do or people think
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  Speaker 1: should divide us that didn't in the past.
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  Speaker 3: We're going to get to that a.
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  Speaker 1: Little bit when you talk about, I think one of
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  Speaker 1: them we're going to get to fourth is like inter-Christian
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  Speaker 1: trench warfare. So kind of this trend that you see
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  Speaker 1: the way you described fragmented echo chambers in the larger culture,
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  Speaker 1: we see that within the church as well. So I
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  Speaker 1: guess my thoughts would be, How does that shape the
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  Speaker 1: way we do apologetics? And I would think kind of
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  Speaker 1: in the past, it was like if somebody asked this,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: say that. And you could almost like script it. It's
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: impossible to script anything anymore. So it's almost more important
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  Speaker 1: that I learn skills of listening, asking good questions, relating
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  Speaker 1: to somebody like those skills are more important if the
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  Speaker 1: way you're describing it is true.
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  Speaker 3: Would you agree with that?
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  Speaker 1: And what else would you think would be important in
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  Speaker 1: this fragmented echo chamber world we live in?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely agree. I always think of Francis Schaeffer's statement
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: that if you have an hour to share the gospel,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: he would say he would take 50 minutes to listen
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: and ask questions of the person in the last 10
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: minutes to then respond to those questions, which is a
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: very human way of interacting with someone. And I do think,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: I think we could go too far with that, but
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: you think of Christ himself. Every conversation was different. And
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: he's responding to the particular person. So I think there's
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  Speaker 2: wisdom in that. But one thing that I find helpful
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  Speaker 2: in this, you know, because you can think, well, I
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: need to be an expert on everything now. I need
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: to be an expert on Islam. I need to know
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: what to say about AI down the line. I don't
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  Speaker 2: think I would hate for someone to become paralyzed in fear,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: thinking I can't be an apologist unless I'm sort of
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  Speaker 2: omnicompetent on all these different issues. A lot of times
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  Speaker 2: in conversations, just the simple instinct of bringing it back
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: to Jesus himself, I think is really helpful. So whatever
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  Speaker 2: conversation you're in, if you're talking to someone about Islam,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: or if you're talking to someone about atheism, or if
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: you're talking to someone about some particular cultural event, who
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Jesus is, is always relevant to that. And so I
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  Speaker 2: love to go, you know, in my book, I've got
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: a Lord liar lunatic argument that I try to bring
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: out from C.S.
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  Speaker 3: Lewis.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Now, whatever you think about that argument, it's definitely applicable
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  Speaker 2: to almost any kind of conversation. 100%. Because who Jesus
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  Speaker 2: was matters wherever you're coming from. And so in the
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  Speaker 2: echo chamber dynamics, I find I'm just trying to make
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  Speaker 2: a beeline to Jesus in every conversation and almost treating
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  Speaker 2: Jesus as the starting point sometimes more than the destination.
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  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Recently, I had a tour of the huge Hollywood Church
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: of Scientology. Five-hour tour. We made a documentary video of it.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I sat down for two hours with two Scientologists. And
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: one of them, at the end, I gave him more
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: than a carpenter, and he read it. And then we Zoomed,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: and we talked about it. And I was like, just
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: tell me what you think. And he goes, that chapter, Lord, Liar, Lunatic,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: was interesting. Because I don't think he was a liar.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: I don't think he was a lunatic. I don't think
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: he was the Lord.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: And I was like, tell me where you landed at.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: It was just an interesting dynamic of, like, it still resonated.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: And, of course, C.S.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Lewis didn't invent that. That goes back way before Lewis.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: So you're right, bringing it to the person of Jesus.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: But your first point you said is about the importance
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: of listening well. I would add to that, and I agree,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't have to be 50 minutes, but there's
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: a certain just healing that takes place for people that
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: are broken and anxious and angry and divided today. Listening just,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: you know this because you listen better than anyone on
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: YouTube that I know, just lowers the temperature, humanizes people,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: leans in towards understanding. But in the Gospels and Acts,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: we have Jesus asking 340 questions. And he probably answered,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: depending on how you gauge it, between like maybe three
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: and eight. Questions, questions, questions. One of my top advice
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: for young apologists is A, learn how to think. So
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: in this world of fragmented echo chambers, I need certain
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: basic logical principles to recognize good thinking from poor thinking.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: In fact, I recently have interviewed both Frank Turek and
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: William Lane Craig, and they both said that's their advice
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: for younger apologists. So we've got to learn how to think,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: but also just how to ask good questions and listen well.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: If you know those things, you can kind of navigate
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: almost any conversation. And you're right. I don't want to
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: give people the impression that they need to know. everything
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: to feel competent. I mean, there's more issues than not
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: that I'm out of my depth. That's half the reason
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: I interview people is I want to learn about Islam.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: I want to learn about these different things.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: So it's okay.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: I think you gain credibility by saying, you know what?
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. I'll look at,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: and I'll get back to you. Hey, quick pause. I
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: want to tell you about a Bible study tool that
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I've used for 25 years. It is one of only
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: two sponsors I have on this channel, along with Talbot
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: School Theology. Why? Because I deeply believe in it, and
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: I've deeply benefited from it, and I want you to
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: consider using it. It's called Logos, and the tools it
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: offers at your fingertips will blow you away.
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: I use it preparing for interviews.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I use it in my personal Bible study in the morning,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: and I even used it when I was writing my dissertation.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: That means it's a tool that can be used by
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: scholars who want to go deep and lay people who
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: just want to get into the scriptures for themselves. If
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: you want to learn how to study the Bible for
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: yourself and just own and know the scriptures, you will
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: not find a better tool than Logos. I'd love for
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: you to consider trying it out. Start a free 60-day trial,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: which you can find at logos.com slash McDowell.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: Link is in the description. Now back to the show.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: All right, let's keep going. Third one is called vibes-based epistemology.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: Tell me about that.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: I think I got that phrase from Trent Horn. I
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: like it. It communicates. The word vibes, that word seems
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: like it's more in common right now or more in use.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so epistemology has to do with how we
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: know things. And it does seem like there's more of
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: a sense of people coming to conclusions based upon vibes,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: based upon identities, based upon... just what is felt to
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: be authentic, what is felt to be beautiful. Now, unfortunately,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: I think we have to say there's a decrease of
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: critical thinking. And I worry about how the internet is
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: feeling that at times. And then I'm worried about where
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: that's going to go with the use of AI. It
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: seems like there's just less writing and reading. And I'm
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: worried about people outsourcing their critical thinking to AI. That's, again,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: it's the kind of thing, it's like, it's a matter
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: of emphasis. It's not like nobody's reading books anymore and
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: no one's doing critical thinking. But just as a tilt
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: a little bit, you know, I think I heard this
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: statistic in a talk recently about AI. that the predict
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: the prediction is next year will be the first year
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: in human history that more human beings in our culture
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: gamble than read a book and that alarmed me i've
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: never heard that because gambling is skyrocketing right now sports.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Gambling polymarket all that stuff has just taken off yeah.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: And that's a huge concern in its own right but
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: then less people are reading books now there are still
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: people reading books i mean we could overstate that but
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: it's just especially among young people it's there is a
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: little bit of a tapering off there so I think
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: the concern there is we are losing critical thinking skills
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: as a culture, but not totally. And I think there
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: is space even there to ask, okay, what is appealing
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: to people right now? And how can the gospel speak
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: to the human heart right now? For example, beauty. Beauty
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: right now does register with people, I've found. And I
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: think that we can demonstrate how the gospel is beautiful.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: I was just giving a talk here at Viola this
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: morning on the resurrection of Christ. The resurrection of Christ
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: is a really thrilling, dramatic story. And what it means
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: is this particular kind of hope that we have. I
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: love helping people think about that. There's a particular kind
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: of happiness that comes as we think about Jesus rising
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: from the dead. I love to help people think about that.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: So there are some possible inroads amidst this, but I
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: do think we have every reason to be alarmed at
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: the less rational discourse and disagreement that is common, not fully,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: but I would say more now than 10 years ago.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I think in some ways human beings have always been
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: persuaded more by emotions and relationships and stories than rational facts.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Lawyers have always known this. But what's happened, I think,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: to make your point, is now we have accessible so
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: many TikTok videos. And instead of reading an article, I
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: can throw it in ChatGBT and it just gives you
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: a quick summary in the bottom line. And I think
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: gambling does the same thing. is that there's certain practices
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: in our culture that weigh against the cultivation of virtue.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: So it's so much easier to fall into vice than
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: it is to develop virtues. That's always been human nature.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: But what's different now is the accessibility of gambling, the
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: accessibility of AI. And I think it plays to our
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: lowest nature. You can get quick results with that. But
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: my encouragement to apologists is slow down, cultivate character, cultivate
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: community go to a church learn how to think dive
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: into the scriptures get that character and that base first
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: then you're in a position to have a more lasting
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: influence but I also would say you're you're Your focus
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: on goodness, truth, and beauty. Again, I'm only putting this
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: out because I want people to realize there's nothing new
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: about that, right? I mean, ancient Greeks, they're like goodness, truth,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: and beauty. But I think the apologetics movement leaned so
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: heavily into rational argument evidence and didn't understand that that's
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: not the primary way most people will make decisions. If
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: their heart is like, I don't like Christians, then that's
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: going to affect how they assess the evidence. So I
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: had a debate recently, a few years ago, on sexuality.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: I was like, I not only need to show that
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: a biblical view is true and it's right. I've got
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: to show that it's beautiful and ask myself, how do
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: I do that where people want it to be true?
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: And I've started doing that with a resurrection.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I used to, I give this example, the band I
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: won't go into about how I'll even use infinity war
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: to make the point about how that movie is about
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: really what will we sacrifice a human life for? When
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: can we sacrifice a human life? And the ultimate hero
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: is Iron Man, willingly laying down his life for others.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: And our hearts resonate with that kind of hero.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: Well, that's fiction.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: The story of Christ is that God actually did.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: That in history.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: And I found when I frame it that way, it
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: opens up more for the evidence because they think, oh,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: that resonates with my heart in this vibes-based epistemology. And
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: so I think the last thing I'll say and then
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: weigh in here is we can make a mistake being
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: all like rational, logical, but we can also make a
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: mistake playing into the vibes-based culture and just beauty, just.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Feeling, just story apart from truth.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Seems we need to balance those two together, biblically speaking,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: but also most effectively.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Your thoughts? It's good. Hopefully Christian apologists can lead the
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: way in trying to wed Goodness, truth, and beauty. And
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: showing that these things all relate because our belief is
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: they all go back to God himself. God is the good,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: the true, and the beautiful. So we want to show,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: this is the metaphor I used yesterday in my chapel talk,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: is trying to feed your children vegetables when they're not
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: hungry is very difficult.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: And they don't like vegetables.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: And they don't like, so yeah, it's vegetables and they're
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: not hungry. It's like, how's that going to go? Like
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: every parent knows that. We do apologetics like that so much.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: We are trying to just jam something down someone's throat.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: So what I was making the appeal for, which is
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: of my book, is exactly what you're saying of speaking
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: to the heart, making the old advice from Pascal, make
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: someone wish it were true. And so the whole theme
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: of my book is the ache in your heart. But
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: the book is filled with arguments. So I'm trying to
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: do both and. Speak to the mind and the heart.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: But the heart can be a doorway to the mind.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: This would take us aside, but there's a professor here
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: whose office I could literally walk out. It's 10 feet
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: in front of me. Greg Gansel wrote a book called
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Our Deepest Desires. It's an incredible book if you haven't
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: seen it. And his whole point is the deepest desires
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: we have to be good, to be known as good
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: for human relationship, for meaning. Those are the deepest desires
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: that we have in life in a transcend time. All
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: of those make sense within a Christian worldview. So how
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: do we find a hook for those deepest desires and say, actually,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: they are found in the person of Christ? And this
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: is true. Then you're doing effective apologetics. All right, we
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: got to keep rolling. This is intra-Christian trench warfare.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Tell us about that.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: I wish I didn't have to use the phrase trench
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: warfare because that's a painful image. But unfortunately, I think
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: we have to recognize there's a lot of painful disagreement
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: among Christians. You mentioned this earlier. Now, some disagreements can
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: be healthier than others. Sure. And in fact, the breakout
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: I'm about to do is on healthy disagreement. How do
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: we pursue that? But unfortunately, I think we see a
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: lot of uncharitable disagreement among Christians and also sometimes unwise disagreement,
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: you know, public things or Disagreeing where we don't necessarily
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: need to divide over something, but we end up dividing.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: We see fragmentation. We see deterioration of relationships. But then
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: also just the major differences within Christendom seem like they're
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: getting a lot more attention right now. And when I started,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: so I mentioned 2019 earlier. In 2019, I started researching
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: about narrative and beauty unto apologetics. That led to my
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: first book on this topic. At that point, I was
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: not thinking at all about Protestant views versus other Christian views.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: And I've gotten pulled into those conversations to try to
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: meet needs for people because a lot of people are
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: wrestling with that. And so I think that is connected
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: to apologetics in some way. I think some people, for example,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, one basic way is some people are questioning
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: their salvation because they're wondering, am I in the one
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: true church?
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: That's painful.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Very painful. And then we see some pretty fierce warfare
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: about these things online too. So that's a piece of
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: all of this. And my heart for it is Christians
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: would learn how to defend what they believe in a
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: way that honors the truth and doesn't trivialize these disagreements,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: but also has sort of appropriate sense of grace and
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: decorum in the way we talk. So that if I'm,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: if I am talking to someone that I believe also
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: knows Jesus and the conversation will be flavored in some
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: way because of that. And I think there's a sense
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: of balance there of recognizing where we have agreements, but
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: also not being afraid necessarily to talk through the disagreements.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: I think if we only ever talk about mere Christianity,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: I don't think that serves our people well, because at
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: some point someone's going to say, okay, I'm a Christian. Now,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: which church do I go to? And what does it
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: look like to follow Jesus? And so helping them count
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: the cost is we're going to need to pastor and
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: shepherd our people on those questions too.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I'd love to know why you think that has shifted.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Because if I go back to even like early 2000s
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: when I'm starting to speak a little bit and started
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: to teach high school Bible in 2003 for a decade,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: I was not getting questions about Israel. I was not
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: getting many questions at all about, say, Catholicism.
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: A little bit about Islam.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Coming out of 2001, but that's increasing more and more now,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: I think, for a number of different reasons. But as
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: best I can tell, I would attribute it to a
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: few things. There's no longer any Billy Graham-type figure that
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: can kind of hold across Christendom together in the way
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: that he did. In many ways, my dad did ministry
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: during that era, so he would be invited in to
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: speak with Catholics, with Charismatics, with conservatives, with people like
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: conservative Baptists, with all sorts of different denominations. It was
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: kind of like his lane was, the Bible is true,
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Jesus has risen from the grave, biblical sexuality, which didn't
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: get into any of the nuances today. And you could
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: kind of speak across all these issues. For me, I
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: found in my generation, it's way harder to do that.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: It's almost impossible.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: And partly I mourn that. I think, man, can we
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: just work together? There's so much infighting that's here. And
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: to me, a lot of it is sideways energy. Although
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: your point, some of these issues are important and deserve attention.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: So you agree with that?
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Or were there any other factors you would add for
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: why we have that inter-Christian trench warfare?
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I wonder if one other additional factor is this sense
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: of historical desire for belonging. People want to know their
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: place in history. And I think there's such a sense
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: of instability in the world and anxiety about the future.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: People want something secure, like a solid rock that they
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: can stand on that is not going to shift with
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: the times. And so sometimes we can look to a
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: particular church tradition for that or just... And there's something
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: about that that's really beautiful, right? That actually can be
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: our apologetic in part is to say, come to Jesus.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: And number one, here's who he is as a savior.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: And number two, you're a part of his family now.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: And you're coming into this tradition, which is really beautiful.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Of course, one of the dangers that can come about
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: is that healthy sense of belonging can morph into an
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: idol if the tradition becomes more of our sense of
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: security than Christ himself. And so a big part of
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: my emphasis, I talk about gospel assurance a lot. I
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: want people to find that sense of standing on a
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: solid rock in Christ and the gospel ultimately. And then
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: of course, there's a healthy sense of also feeling a
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: sense of historical placement. But I think a lot of
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: people are asking that question, where do I belong? And
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: that leads us into these conversations amidst different Christian traditions.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, and those conversations matter. You know, we, uh,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: part of, again, all I've gotten into it to do
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: is just to try to honor the questions coming at
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: me and not trivialize them. And so sometimes, but I,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: I'm with you in that. I want to have these
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: conversations in a God honoring way where we're among Christians, uh,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: working through our differences, but also there are times to
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: just come together, uh, over basic issues of morality, uh,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: over basic issues of, um, opposing some of just the
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: aggressive secularism in our culture, things like that. So I
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: feel a sense of balance here. And let's do general
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Christian apologetics. Let's also do apologetics for our particular views.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: But those will play out a little differently.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: That's totally fair.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Our next video is going to be on eight reasons
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: why you are Protestant and not Catholic.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: Charitably done.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: But if you had told me six months ago I'd
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: be doing this video, I would have said, Gavin, you
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: got the wrong McDowell.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: No chance.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: But I get asked about it so often, I feel like, okay,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: I need to at least help some people that are
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: asking me these questions. Even though, frankly, it interests me
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: a little bit less, these questions are really important in
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: the minds of this generation.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: So we're going to wade into that.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: All right, your fifth kind of apologetic trend is a
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: stirring spiritual hunger.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: And I don't have... a real tight understanding of how
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: much this is the case. It might be wishful thinking.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: All right. I just really want to see revival in
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: our time. I really want to see a renewal of churches,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: less infighting, more of a calming and healing of Christian relationship.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: And then I really want to see the gospel go forward.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: And I do sense young people asking questions with a
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: bit more openness. I'm curious the extent to which you
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: see this as well. But I just see a little
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: bit more, you know, whether you're looking at Bible sales
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: or church attendance, there is something happening. I can't gauge
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: exactly how much, but I'm praying that that increases. And
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: I'm praying for a third great awakening. And I'm praying
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: that God does something wonderful in our time and that many,
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: many people come to find Jesus. People are going to
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: find a gospel. They're going to find something that feels
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: like good news to base your life on. I want
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: it to be the true gospel. And so, yeah, I'm
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: just excited. I don't feel hopeless. I feel excited. I
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: feel eager. I feel prayerful. I don't know what's going
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: to happen, but I just really desire for there to
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: be a new work of God that goes forward in
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: our time. That's what I want to give my life to.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: Amen to that.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: We could mic drop at that moment, but I got
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: a handful more questions for you. This is one based
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: on when it says stirring spiritual hunger. I probably would
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: have rated it a little bit less, even though the
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: apologetic change may be a little bit higher. Stirring strikes
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: me as almost like revival type. So I would describe
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: it more as an openness, maybe a shift in the conversation.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: And there's some studies that show more men are going
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: to church, more Bible sales. But even Ryan Burge is like,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: by any metric of revival, he's one of the leading,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: as you know, demographers. He's like, there's no evidence of
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: a revival in the U.S.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: Or beyond.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: But I hear enough anecdotes from people to make me
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: think maybe something is going on. I've just done this
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: long enough. I remember in the early 2000s, the emergent
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: church movement. If you remember that time, people are like,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: apologetics is dead. Share your story. And I'm like, I
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: work with students regularly. they're asking me as many apologetic
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: questions as ever. And so sometimes there are certain narratives
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: that we accept that don't match up with the evidence.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: And I want to caution myself from jumping ahead and
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: talking revival when I don't know if the data is there,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: but certainly the conversation is shifted from the new atheist.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: And where I go, the vast majority of people are
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: open and willing to have spiritual conversations. That's for sure
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: in my experience. How to rate it, I really don't
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: know the answer to that one. Let me ask you
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: this question, just a handful more. Are there certain issues
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: you get asked that you didn't in the past? And
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: for me, it's really Catholicism and Israel are issues even
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: five years ago, I was not asked. Are there any,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: do you get asked, you obviously get asked about Catholicism
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: and Orthodoxy. Are there any other issues you get asked
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: about a lot that are maybe different?
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Those are the big ones. There are, I mean, some
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: of these cultural trends. So, AI. I think AI is
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: a big one just because of the technology advancing so
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: rapidly right now. Islam and other religions. Another thing would
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: be issues related to dark forms of spirituality. So, Satanism.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: That's very true.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Witchcraft. Stuff like that. Questions, you know, it feels more
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: blatant now than 10 years ago. It feels like people,
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of Christians come to me and say, you know,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: my neighbor is dabbling in witchcraft. We're talking about that.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: This question comes up. You know, this conversation happens a
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: little more now. But I just want to say I
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: do agree with you that when I say stirring spiritual hunger,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: all I'm going by is anecdotes. So I really don't know.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: That's fair. But the hope is in the midst of
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: the chaos, the jungle, all this other stuff, I don't
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: want Christians to feel a sense of fear and despair. Amen.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: The time is lean forward and pray big prayers and
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: dream big dreams and speak about the gospel. I almost
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: feel like, let's go for it. It's an exciting time
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: to be alive.
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: And say, God, do something new in our day.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: Preach it.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: By the way, fear is self-focused. That's why one of
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: the biggest fears people have is public speaking. I don't
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: want to look bad because I'm thinking about myself. So
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: there is a sense where we evangelicals, sometimes I analyze
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: our culture. I'm like, we're reacting out of fear. What's
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: a biblical response to fear? Perfect love casts out fear.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: So I often tell people, if you're nervous before you speak,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: just ask, how do I love my audience? And it
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: goes from self-focused to other-focused. So all our job, as
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: you and me and everybody watching this, is to be
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: faithful in this generation to the gifts God has given us.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: and to love people, which means speaking the truth with kindness.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: That's all I can do. And if I'm faithful to that,
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: I can't help but be optimistic because I think Jesus
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: has risen from the grave.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: So Kate, let me ask you this.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Where do you think there's opportunities for apologists? And the
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: reason I ask this question is because there's two ways
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: to look at it. Sometimes apologists ask me, where are
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: opportunities where work needs to be done, which I appreciate.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: That's one way to focus on if you're writing a
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: sub stack or a YouTube channel or getting a PhD.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: The other question is like, what do you love and
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: what interests you? And I tend to think that's a
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: more important question because that's what's going to sustain and
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: motivate people. But when I think about opportunities, I just
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: finished up a book, it won't be out for a while,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: with John Stone Street on the theology of the body.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: And when I read Carl Truman's book, The Rise and
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Triumph of the Modern Self, I consider one of the
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: most important books in the past five or seven years.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: At the very end, he's like, we need a robust
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: theology of embodiment. And I think Catholics get that right.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: So I think there's big opportunity for evangelicals to lean
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: into that and be more consistent. The other one I
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: think is afterlife apologetics. I've totally leaned into this, Gavin.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Like I've probably done as much on YouTube.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: I have a whole playlist. I haven't even checked.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Probably 15 or 20 interviews with some of the top
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: on like miracles and visions, like visions of Muslims that
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: they're having of Jesus. Deep dive on that. Evidence for
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: angelic appearances. Near-death experiences. To me, that's an opportunity. I'm
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: trying to encourage apologists to go into.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Are there other.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: And by the way, Islam... Had an interview recently. We
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: just started to see textual criticism of the Quran in
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: a way that where people brought that criticism against Christians 50, 70.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: 100 years ago.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: And there are serious work that can be done there.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Are you aware of any other areas? If somebody is like,
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: where does work need to be done and what opportunities
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: are there for apologists?
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: What would you say?
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's exciting to think of people feeling
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: compelled to specialize in a particular area and go deep
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: in one area, whether it be a different religion, a
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: particular argument. And then we can, of course, branch out there.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: William Lane Craig, you think of all the work he
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: did on the Kalam argument. He specialized there, right? And
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: that's a service.
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: And the resurrection.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: And the resurrection. And Molinism.
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: But your point.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Exactly. So he kept going. And you can do that.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: He's a savant, but keep going.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: You can go from one thing to the other like that,
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: but you've got to go deep. And I think sometimes
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: apologists kind of go shallow on everything. And they feel
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: like they need to cover every topic. I want to
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: encourage people to go deep and choose their topics and
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: go real deep on them. But one area that I
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: would love to mention is, and it's kind of I
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: was surprised this came up for me, but it's the
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: argument from fulfilled prophecy. Oh, so the one in why
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Christianity makes sense. I got chapter eight on fulfilled prophecy.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: Now I did not know what to expect getting into that.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: I've only found two academic articles addressing it. It's very
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: under-resourced today, but all throughout church history from the church
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: fathers through up through blaze Pascal, people have appealed to
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: fulfilled prophecy. Um, In the last 10 years, I see
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: less on it. But depending on how it is done,
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: I'm less of a fan of the kind of slam dunk.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Any of these passages is obviously talking about Jesus and
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: more of a fan of the Old Testament is a
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: coherent narrative. And it has this forward-looking expectation and hope.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: And it looks a lot like Jesus. And it's really
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: interesting to read passages like Isaiah 53 in relation to
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: the whole narrative and to ask, where did this hope
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: come from? And why is it there? And what's the
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: best explanation for that? The argument from fulfilled prophecy is
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: cool because it gets you all the way to Christianity
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: as opposed to arguments just for God. And I just
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: think there's a lot there to explore. It can work
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: in terms of narrative. It can work in terms of beauty.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: It's very textual. So it gets you into the Bible.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: It has a lot of benefits and it's underexplored. So
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: I just hope people would explore that one more.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: You know what I love about that? And I had
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: not thought about this, uh, I'm going to be using
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: that out. I'll try to remember to quote you if
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: I can that you first said that. But there's certain
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: people who've spent their life, like Gary Habermas has spent
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: his life, four volumes on the resurrection. And when I
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: interviewed him, he's like, Sean, we've made the case. There's
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: going to always need to be people to tinker and respond,
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: but we've made the case. Think about the deity of Christ.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: Rob Bowman and Ed Komaszewski's book, Leia Hurtado, Bauckham, like
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: we have the best case we have. The Soul, Substance
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: for the Soul by J.P. Moreland and Brandon Rickabaugh, the
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: most sophisticated case for the soul I think that we've had.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Evidence that God exists scientifically, Stephen Meyer's work, Kalam argument. Life,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Beckwith is updating his book on life. That'll be the
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: most sophisticated defense. But prophecy, nobody's done that.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: You're right.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: When I interviewed 100 apologists, and I interviewed a year
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: or one of them, made that video, There's only one
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: person who said.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: Fulfilled prophecy is the best argument.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Fascinating.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: And it was my dad.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: Oh, really? He was the only one who thinks fulfilled
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: prophecy is the best argument for God.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Only one.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: Kind of blew me away. So I think you're right.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: There's some work that needs to be done there. And
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: you think about timeless versus timely to bring it full circle.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Like near-death experiences... Plato, there are stories in Plato's writings,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: but now in the past 50, 60 years, we have
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: the medical ability to keep people alive and study them
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: in a way we couldn't in the past. That's a
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: more timely issue. Prophecy is a timeless issue. It's been
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: around since, well.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Acts 2.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: They're referring to fulfilled prophecy.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: So I love that.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: If you're an apologist and you're watching this, here's my
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: final encouragement. Get involved in a church. Know the word well.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: know the scriptures, pour into the scriptures, and get a mentor.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: And finally, don't compare yourself to anybody else. Be who
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: God has called you to be, and that's very freeing.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Any final words for a young apologist?
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Those are also good. I'll just add on two that
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: are consistent with that. One is love the people in
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: your life who don't know Jesus with all of your heart,
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: ask Jesus to give you his compassion for them. If
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: there's not love in your heart for them, and if
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: you love them, that will translate in the way you
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: speak more broadly as well. But think of that metaphor
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: from our Lord, sheep without a shepherd. Understand the compassion
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: we should have for people who don't have a shepherd.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: They don't know the God of the universe and they
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: need that. Let your heart be tenderized in love and
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: then just always fall back on Jesus's own love for
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: you Remember that you worship Jesus and he's your savior,
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: not your own arguments for him. And so let your
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: own existential experience of Christ be your ultimate fallback and reality,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: not your case for Christ, if that makes sense. Amen.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: And by the way, you just spoke on your new book,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Why Christianity Makes Sense. One of my students was walking
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: out and he goes, he goes, man, Mr. McDowell, that
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: was great. We should use that in our curriculum here. Now,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: for people who have multiple chapels a week, in my class,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: to say that bodes well. And what you do in
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: this book is you not only lay out the truth,
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: but you talk about the goodness and the beauty, and
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: you make that case. So check out Why Christianity Makes Sense.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Think about studying with us here at Talbot School of Theology.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: We would love to have you in the program.
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: Gavin, we'll do it again, man.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Our next issue, or next issue, whatever you call it, episode,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: we're going to walk through eight reasons why you're Protestant,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: which implies why you're not Catholic. Not trying to stir
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: up all the debate, but we get asked this all
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: the time. So we're going to walk through the big
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: dividing issues and just clarify what you believe and why
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: you believe it in a way that's helpful.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: So we'll see folks in the next video.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Sounds great. Looking forward to it.