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Certified Arborist Answers Listener Questions! · Talking Trees with Davey Tree

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Deby Tree Expert Company's podcast, Talking Trees.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Doug Oyster.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Each week, our expert arborists share advice on seasonal tree care, how to make your trees thrive, arborists' favorite trees, and much, much more.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in every Thursday to learn more because here at the Talking Trees Podcast, we know trees are the answer.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Lou Meyer.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: He is an arborist from the Baltimore, Maryland area.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: He's been on the show a lot.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And Lou, you answer a lot of questions in your job, right?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Talking trees is one of our favorite things to do as arborists.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone wants to talk about their green friends.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we have lots of questions from listeners.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what we're starting with.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought I'd throw you for a loop.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: We have some fun together when Lou and I are on the podcast together.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the real question.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from David.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: I have a tree covered with gnarles.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like it might have to come down due to dead limbs in the top.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Does it have value?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Before you answer that question, what are gnarls?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So gnarls, I'm guessing what David is referring to is something that we call burls.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And burls are a tree's growth response to disease or infection inside the tree.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes you'll see trees that have these big bumps on the side, and not little bumps where limbs used to be cut off, but like big, uh almost like warts on the side of the tree, it looks like.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: They can be huge.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I've got uh a picture of my kids and I next to a burl on a black cherry tree along a trail here in Maryland that is almost as big as the trunk of the tree is around, but it's this big round area.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, it's a response, it's a growth response.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So trees cannot heal like you and I.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: They can't regenerate cells.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you cut your hand, you put a band-aid on it, over time your finger, whatever, will regenerate skin cells to replace it.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Trees can't do that, they have to compartmentalize decay, which is this really fascinating response that trees have to infection.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there's different ways that infection and other things can travel inside of a tree.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's radial movement, there's vertical movement up and down, um, side-to-side movement.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: And what trees do is they shut down the cellular walls around an infection.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: They they close them off so the infection can't spread.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this doesn't always work.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: We don't always heal, right?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: You have infections.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes your wound doesn't heal immediately.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Trees are the same.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they can't uh shut down fast enough.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So what they do is they put on more growth to compartmentalize that decay.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And with burls, what that tree is doing is just putting on more and more growth around that uh uh infection.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So does it have value?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Does a burl have value in a tree?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Does it make it more valuable?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: For the health of the tree, burls do not add any value.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um burls don't hurt the tree.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: What's causing the burls is what's hurting the tree.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: From a financial standpoint, if you have a large burl, you could have uh a nice little payday.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh burls are highly prized in the woodworking community, especially for wood turners.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a lathe and you make bowls or cups or vases, wooden vases, anything that has exposes the interior of wood, burls have tremendous value.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's these really wild patterns of uh color uh within those burls that do that too.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: You you take a burl, you lathe it out like a bowl, and you put a nice sealant on it or polyurethane, it really makes those colors pop, and that is tremendous value.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we don't want to recommend David uh takes that tree down right just to get those uh valuable burls.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: We want David to have a certified arborist look at that tree and see if it actually needs to come down, right?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, for the health of the tree, you've got dead limbs at the top, so you know that's never a good sign.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the burl on the side, uh, you know, without any more evidence, I would say I don't have a real solid positive long-term outlook for that tree.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, if you if you do discover, you know, by talking an arbitrary the tree has to come down, depending on where you live, look up the local wood turner's guild or wood turner's society.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's wood wood turners and wood carvers all across the continent, oh, across the world for that matter.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they might be interested in that burrow.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're so valuable, in fact, that uh poaching burrals is an illegal activity that happens all the time.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh state parks know where their larger burrals are, and rangers will regularly patrol to make sure that people aren't poaching those.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: But folks will come into public lands and we'll either cut the burl off or we'll cut the tree down and then remove the section of the burrow, whatever's easiest, so they can sell them.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: They have that much value.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So let's see the tree, let's say the tree does need to come down.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever dealt with that?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Where what would the homeowner do just say, hey, I I want you to keep those burls separate and leave them here for me?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how it works?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Or yeah, yeah.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: So depending on the size of the burrow and the size of the trunk of the tree, we could either remove just the burl itself or cut out a cross section of the tree that leaves that burrow intact.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably best for what the woodworkers want.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would start the conversation by talking to your local woodworkers' group or local wood turner's group to see what their preferences are, uh, and they'll be able to give you better guidance.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a lot of neat ways to reuse urban wood that uh I wish we did a lot more with.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's it makes it the logistics more difficult uh for a variety of reasons.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: But when you have someone who uh values that, you can do some neat things.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm from Cincinnati, Ohio, and uh there's a wood turner in a neighborhood called uh Madisonville, where I used to live.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Dawn is his name, uh Don Stevens, I think.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And whenever we'd cut down an interesting tree, and by interesting I mean the type of wood, uh red buds or dogwoods, especially.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: If they were a large redwood, red bud or large dogwood, uh that that wood is really interesting.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Don would turn it into all sorts of cool stuff, and he would usually throw me like a spoon or a you know something small to give to mom, and she loved that.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, finding a relationship with your local wood turners and woodworkers groups is uh is a good thing for an arborist to do.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, David, that was a great question.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh lots of conversation there.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Bill wants to know, and I like this question too: what is the best and safest way to remove grass from around an established tree so he can add a mulch ring?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Great question, Bill.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, you're you're right on the money with your your motives.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: So turf grass competes with the roots of trees for nutrients and water and oxygen and other things.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the best thing you can do for a tree in our suburban settings where we live is get that turf away from the trunk of the tree, ideally out to the drip line of the tree.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you have a tree with a 50-foot-wide canopy, having a 55-foot wide, 50-foot-wide uh mulch ring is going to look pretty silly.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's also gonna be a lot of mulch to put down.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we understand if you can't get it out to the drip line, but as much as you can is really beneficial.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, to your question, what's the best and safest method?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my preferred method is to cut the turf as low as possible.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: So put your mower on its lowest setting.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you have surface roots underneath that tree, roots that are up on the surface, the lowest setting might not be the best idea because you're going to bang the heck out of those roots.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: But as low as you can safely to get that turf as low as possible.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Then I would take newspaper, I would wet the newspaper.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So uh put it if it's not a windy day, you can put the newspaper down real quick and then spray it with a hose.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, if you do have slight wind, it could be very annoying while these sheets fly around.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: So just have a spray bottle close by or even a bucket that you can put the newspaper down flat, put two layers down on top of that turf, throw some water on it so it stays flat because it'll get kind of sticky.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And uh once you have the area uh papered off that you want to establish the mulch ring on, put the mulch on top of it.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the paper uh prohibits the grass from growing up and it blocks off all photosynthetic uh movement to the turf.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the grass doesn't continue to grow, it'll kill off the turf.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: But it is uh uh porous, so it allows water to go through the newspaper, and over time, about a year, that newspaper will break down and biodegrade.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's naturally going back into the ground.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes people use plastic to do this.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: That plastic doesn't break down and it just gets nasty over the course of years.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So newspaper cardboard is another good way to do it if you want to use cardboard.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: But once you put that paper down, um, put a layer of mulch around it.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that makes it look a lot better.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Bare newspaper on the ground is going to look pretty silly, but but some mulch over the top of it, and you won't even notice that it's there.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, you can use shredded wood chips, that's the cheapest method.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're always looking to get rid of wood chips in the arbicultural industry.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if you know, have Davy dump a load at your house or uh another tree company if they're working nearby, uh, or you could go to the store and buy some shredded mulch.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: As always, don't volcano mulch, which means don't build it up against the trunk of the tree.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to pull that mulch uh four to six inches away from the trunk of the tree so that soil is exposed, uh, and only one to two inches deep everywhere else.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you had grass like under a maple, if you if the grass actually survived, where you do have those roots that are are pushing up, how would you do that?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Could you use the same thing and kind of go in between the roots, or would you have to do it by hand?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: What would you recommend there?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would use a string trimmer to get the turf as low as possible, and then I would put that newspaper right over the roots and then mulch over it.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: You can mulch over roots, not very deep.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you want the roots somewhat um not exposed, but you want them near the top.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: What some people want to do is they want to put down uh soil over those roots, and they go, hey, can I put down four inches of soil?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm tired of running over these roots with my lawnmower.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: If it's an established tree, those roots are established at that level.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: If you put four inches of soil on them, all of a sudden those roots are four inches underground, and that's too deep for roots.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Roots live in the top section of the soil.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you don't want to do that.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: But again, what you can do is put a layer of newspaper down over those roots and then put a light layer of mulch, one to two inches at the most, above it.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And this way you don't have to worry about running the lawnmower across the root system so you're not banging around anymore, which is another benefit of mulching around trees, is you protect the trees themselves.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question, Bill.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this one from Rick is a little tricky, though.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Says I get a lot of value out of hearing the Davy folks in the field describe planting choices for various tree species.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: We've been on our farm for about 35 years and are in the process of planting lots of trees and removing some that have aged out.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Different varieties of trees come up that I'm not as familiar with.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you where do you want to go here with this one, Lou?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking like let's talk about some interesting varieties of trees.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, let's let's talk a little bit about right tree, right place.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think what Rick's saying is that he's hearing about different species that he's never heard of before.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you're not unique in this, Rick, that you think that you know, tree species that grow where you live probably grow everywhere else in the United States because we're all roughly the same zone.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, again, that's that's not unique.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Most people think that way, and that's totally fine.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but different species do grow in different places, and it has to do with climate, it has to do with evolution and a number of other things.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, for instance, uh we've had arborists on this show talk about Western Arborvitae.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've been out west, I've seen western arborvitae, they're beautiful.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: We don't grow them here in Maryland.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, on the other hand, we have you know species here that that don't grow out west.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, sugar maple is a you know perennial favorite of arborists, and I know some of my favorites, some of my uh friends out west don't get to see sugar maples as often as here in the northeast.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, we have different species all around the place, but something important to remember, like Doug said, is the right tree in the right place.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, how to pick varieties of trees where you are?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for one thing, I would pay attention to the local landscape.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're walking around, driving around, if you see a picture of a tree, I'm sorry, if you see a tree that you really love, take a picture of that tree and send it into your local Davy Arborist or take it with you to a plant nursery and ask them what's this species?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: How does it do?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: What size is it?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And do a little research to see if it works on your property and in the space you want it in.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now you say that you've been on your farm for about 35 years, so you probably have lots of different spaces to grow trees in.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, most listeners probably live on suburban lots like myself.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I have 0.6 acres and you know, in a Baltimore suburb.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: I have to pay close attention to size and spread and other things.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, luckily, my utility lines are underground.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Most people are not, though, so you got to pay attention to what's happening above your house.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so there's a lot of factors that go into choosing the right tree for the right place.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I was thinking about if there was one close to you, visit an arboretum and and walk around the because even even me, when I go to an arboretum, I'm like, every once in a while I'll see a tree like, wow, what is that?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like a Chinese elm or something like that that I hadn't seen before.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I didn't know you could grow that here.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty interesting.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh see how big it gets, see what the bark is, see what it likes to grow.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: That might be a suggestion, too.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: That is a great suggestion.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then once you decide what species you want, you know, figure out where you can get them.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we don't know where you live, Rick, and that's okay.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but you might not have a nursery near you.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it might be a while away.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and deciding what size and how to plant them is important if you're if you're reforesting a farm.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: For that scale, you're probably gonna be looking at bare root species or nursery stocks.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So the bare root is you can order these things by mail.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll get 10 or 15 trees in a bag, um, and their roots are exposed.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have any soil in them.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so what they'll do is they'll throw a bunch of sawdust, usually sawdust.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I've seen other growth mediums too, in the bottom of a bag.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: They'll put the tree roots down there in the sawdust and they'll fill it up with water, and that dust just holds the water.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then they'll wrap up the bag real tight so it stays damp for a long time, protecting those roots.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just put them right in the ground.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you don't shove them in the ground, but you plant them that way when you get them.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And those you just get more bang for your buck.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, if you're reforesting 15 acres or 35 acres, um, even if you're if you're reforesting you know, five acres, uh, you'll get way more trees for the price.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you want to protect those, you know, those are easy deer browrals targets if you're in a deer heavy area.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to put plenty of deer fencing around, uh, you want to make sure they're protected year-round.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, but that's that's my approach, Rick.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Rick, we hope that answered your question and helped you out.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: John wants to know.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he says that I'm from Seabrook, Texas.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: I am the head volunteer for the tree planting in our city parks and trails.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: We plant about 200 trees in five-gallon buckets and 20 in 15 gallon buckets every year.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: We've been doing this for about 15 years now.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: We only have two to three volunteers, so we have limited manpower to take care of all the trees we have planted.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maintenance includes two inches of mulch twice a year, handful of slow release fertilizer, microlife in parentheses, pruning broken branches, protecting the trunks from deer with wire cage wraps, and emergency watering in the summer if required.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: In our two urban forests and along our 13 miles of trails, there's no mowing.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's wild, and new trees can get overwhelmed by weeds.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: So we pull weeds back to the drip lines.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: What would experts like you, Lou, think about this?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: We've kind of talked about it.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: We have access to a lot of cardboard.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Could we put down a circle of cardboard out to the drip line or maybe halfway out that would help slow the weeds encroaching on the trees?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think, Lou?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would definitely go with cardboard in that situation.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, not just to control the weeds, well, yeah, to control the weeds, but especially so since you're putting deer cages around that.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing more frustrating to me when I'm caring for uh newly planted forests than coming back in six months and having weeds growing up through the deer cages.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's a nightmare.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta take the cages apart, you gotta pull the weeds out of it.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Usually the weeds have woven into the deer cage.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's awful.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, if you could put down a layer of cardboard uh going out to the outside of those weed, those uh deer cages to keep the weeds from growing up into the cages themselves, that helps out a lot.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that would definitely help with the weed suppression around the newly established trees.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Let them get established, get a little growth going on them so that over time they'll develop a canopy that shades out those weeds during the summer months.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why you see out in the forest, you don't see a whole lot of weeds growing.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: You'll see invasive species growing sometimes, invasive ground covers, especially.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but you really want to get that canopy going thick to block out any sunlight to those uh the vegetation on the ground.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And is cardboard cardboard?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing special that we're looking for or something to avoid.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the less glossy, the better, right?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: The less ink that's in there.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, ideally you have brown cardboard, think of delivery boxes that you get that don't have glossy pictures and the rest.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it just breaks down faster.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little more natural.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that if there's science behind it, if there are chemicals in the ink that leach into the ground that affect the plantings.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I doubt it, but I think the most basic cardboard you can get, the better.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: But for a volunteer organization like that, anything you got, that's that's the best route.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And John, good for you on what you're doing.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the other thing I want to ask you, Lou, do you work with a lot of different volunteer organizations like that over your years of doing this?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: I do, yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so because of our size, you know, we're a national company, a lot of folks know about us.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're in a lot of urban areas that have tree planting um uh missions like this.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're frequently asked to be brought in for sometimes work, but mainly just some guidance, a lot like what uh John's asking here.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll I'll back you up too there, and uh giving you a round of applause, John, for being a head volunteer for the tree planters.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, every tree that goes in the ground is really important for the long-term uh uh health of our environment and our human beings.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for being on the front line there.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, we are brought in with a lot of these organizations.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, here in the Baltimore region, I work with a number of workforce development programs that are out there planting trees and teaching people to plant trees.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'll go to events with them, teach them uh tree planting methods and pruning, and not just me.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot of local Davy folks that that go to these with me and around the country.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, we're we're really invested in planting trees.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, A, it's a very good thing, right?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: We want more trees in the world.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: But also, from a you know, a corporate standpoint, the more trees that are out there, the more trees will be manage in the future.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we we want the green canopy out there.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's good for everyone.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: Good stuff.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a couple more questions.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Alan has an interesting one.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Our family has a home in southeast Wisconsin.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: We have a few acres of natural forest, old oak forest, your favorite.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's talking to me there, and have decided to expand it by removing an acre of adjacent grass, wood chipping the area, and planting native seedlings.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: We would like to return the area to its natural forest type, increase privacy, and have a larger habitat for birds and animals.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: We are fortunate that the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources offers native tree and shrub seedlings for about$1 each.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good deal.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Over the last four years, we've planted about 5,000 seedlings, and we are now several years into the growing process.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: These seedlings are established and have grown to three to six feet tall.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: He says he'd like to begin pruning them to help promote healthy growth, but from what he's read, it's recommended for natural forests to be left alone and not pruned.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Question is, Lou, would you recommend that we prune these plants or leave them to grow wild?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, that's a good one, Alan.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Again, thank you for planting trees.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Always good to see a fellow green thumb out there.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a forester.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: A forester might have a different answer than I do.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would recommend that you lightly prune these trees.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And by that, I mean we're looking for structural deficiencies that you can correct easily at this point.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: One big one is trees will sometimes develop two central leads.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there are a couple of species of trees that can have multiple leads, and that's okay.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: But most of the trees that you want, especially in a forest setting, you want one central lead, which means one very distinct trunk growing up from the ground towards the sky with scaffolding branches growing out the side.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes trees will grow two or three of these for a variety of reasons.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Usually when you see them out in nature, it's either the tree was cut down a long time ago, it was left a stump, and new sprouts have grown up, and over time there are now two or three trees growing out of one stump.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Other times, uh, you know, a tree may have split off and as regrown, you know, split off like four or five feet above the ground.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: A storm happened or something hit it, or maybe an animal browsed it and these things are now growing out.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you don't want to have multiple leads for your trees.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: And what happens is as those trunks, those you know, two or three different trunks now grow wider and wider in girth, they begin to smush up against one another.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not a scientific term smooshing, but they smoosh up against one another, and the bark is absorbed into the trunk of the tree at that point.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that bark uh starts to decay, and that leads to inner decay within the trees, and you get what's called included bark.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to avoid that.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I would through your 5,000 seedlings there that are three to six feet tall, if you're feeling plucky, um, I'd go through there.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's way easier when they're three to six feet tall than when they're 30 or 40 feet tall, and choose whatever, you know, if they have two trunks, if they have two dominant stems, pick the least dominant one and remove that now.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: That tree will look funky for the next few seasons, but eventually it'll it'll fill in and be fine.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that'd be pretty much the minimum that I would do.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe if you you know one day you'll be maintaining under these trees, maybe lifting the crown just a little bit so you're not getting poked in the eye.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but no, you are right.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: The intention to leave them to grow wild as much as possible is best for forest trees.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Another question.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: This one comes from Arlington, Virginia.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an avid volunteer tree planter.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Good for you.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: We've had lots of that uh we've talked about today.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And invasive remover in the Washington, D.C.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: area.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be interested in coverage of the virtues of planting small, I hate the word whips, versus larger caliper trees.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Also, the cost effectiveness of spending on removing invasives from mature trees versus planting new trees.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think, Lou?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is great.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we do a lot of work in Arlington, Virginia.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: We that's a that's an area that Davy has a lot of presence in.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's about an hour south of me, so I'm I'm very familiar with it.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, first of all, thank you for being a volunteer tree planter and invasive remover.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh DC is fairly hot and humid, which means that the invasives, especially the vines, go crazy.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Rock Creek Park is a national park in the middle of DC.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the most beautiful parks in the country, and it's in a very urban area.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of volunteers uh are there removing invasive vines to keep those trees healthy year-round.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I suspect you're one of those, and thank you for that work.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, planting small versus large caliper trees are is a great idea for a variety of reasons.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'll walk you through them.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: For one, you get them cheaper.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, to buy a uh not a whip, but a bare root stock or a small tree is much cheaper than a large tree.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: A large tree has taken resources and time and geography to get to the size that it is.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: It also takes a lot more money to ship because it weighs a lot more and takes up more space and trucks.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you get a lot more bang for your buck with a small tree.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Also, small trees have less transplant shock.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, with the large caliper trees, if you're doing a bald and burlap tree, which is a tree that's got one of those big burlap balls in the bottom of it, or a big root ball that's wrapped in burlap, um, when they remove those from the ground, they take a tree spade, which is a machine that has these sharp shovel things on them, and they they snap right through the root system of that tree, they lift it up, they wrap it, and then they ship it off to plant.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that shocks the tree, that slows its growth significantly above ground.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Small trees, when you plant them, especially bare root, uh, they don't go through this, they start growing right away.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: A rule of thumb that we usually talk about in the industry is that per inch of caliper, and caliper is the diameter uh about an inch off the ground.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the only time you measure trees at the ground is when you're talking about caliper trees.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: But per inch of caliper, that's about how many years it takes for the tree to recover from the shock.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: So a four-inch diameter tree, when you plant it, takes about four years to really start growing again above ground.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now there'll be some growth, but to really kick in and start flying.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas a one-inch tree, a much smaller one, will start growing a lot faster.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: So if you need an immediate wall of green, let's say your neighbor's putting in a new pool and you don't want to see it, large tree all the way, right?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: You need it now.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's you need that wall of green.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: But if if it's a property that you're investing time into, I'm gonna live here for the next 20 years, uh, picking those small trees, chances are they're gonna be over the course of 10 years, even five years, they're gonna be about the same size as that larger tree is um at the same time because you've you've they've got that time to overcome the um the differential.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it's much better.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And they're they're more survivable, right?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're smaller, kind of like kids, you know, if you if you know human beings, you know, kids kind of bounce back from things a little better.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I when I fall over now playing sports with my kids, it takes me a little longer to get up.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Trees are no different, they recover a lot faster.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: So um their survivability rate's much better.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: When you fall down, well, we when I fall down, uh they just did drag me out of the gym.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the second part of the question, though, the cost effectiveness of spending on removing invasives from mature trees versus planting new trees.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk to that?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: This one's really interesting.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: So let's look at, I'm gonna look at two different ways.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: One is just the straight up labor versus cost.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, to have two or three people uh cutting vines off a mature tree.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that could be some nasty work.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: If it's poison vines, poison ivy, or some of the others, it could be you know harmful to you.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: So you got to be careful about that.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: But the the cost effectiveness of removing those to save a tree versus planting new trees, it is much better to do the invasives removal.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Not just because it costs less to do that, the cost to remove that tree.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that tree, so let's say you don't remove the invasives, that large tree dies.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Then what are you gonna do?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: If it's in a park setting, okay, you let it die and you let it fall apart.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: If it's in your yard, or if it's in a park setting over a bench or over another area, it's gonna cost a lot of money to get that tree out of there.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then you plant a little tree and it takes time to grow.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: So uh the cost effectiveness is much better dollar for dollar to remove those invasives than it is to just bank on planting new trees.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now, another way to look at it is the environmental benefits, the environmental cost of leaving that tree.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Mature trees provide way more benefits environmentally than new trees.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And not to knock new trees, there's a place for them.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: We want to plant new trees, but any large mature tree that you can preserve provides a tremendous amount of tremendous amount of value to the environment.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that value can be quantified in dollar amounts, if that's what we want to talk about.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we look at the amount of storm water that large trees uh uh soak up, we look at the amount of carbon that large trees sequester from the air, we look at the kilowatts per hour that uh large trees will save.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that's a tougher one, especially in a park setting, to uh to justify because you're not blocking uh you know roofs and keeping people from running air conditioners uh a lot harder, but but still they provide those benefits.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh large trees cool the area much more.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if we're looking in urban settings like the DC area, uh large canopies will release more water vapor into the air, which makes it feel cooler.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: So if you ever walk through a forest in the summer, um if you if you go from a field to a forest and you go, wow, it feels a lot cooler here.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just the shade, it's that water vapor that's underneath the canopy of the tree that's there.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Almost like walking through a misting station at a Pittsburgh Pirates game.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it just cools you down on a hot day.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: So those large trees have a lot more value.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say a lot more value than new trees to devalue the new trees, but they provide more benefits, and those benefits provide more value, both environmentally, financially, and personally, I think, uh, for all of us.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: You reference the pirates and not the Orioles?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was trying to make it personal for you, Doug.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: One more question.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's an easy one.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from Gary.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: He asked, What's the meaning of life?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, it's planting trees, Gary.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Lou.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: That was a lot of fun and really great information.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: Always great talking to you, buddy.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh if you're a longtime listener of this podcast, uh, Lou and I have a really fun one coming up about the different things that you can eat from a tree.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so you stay tuned.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: In the next uh few weeks, maybe a month, we'll we'll have that podcast for you again, Lou.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much, and we'll talk to you next time.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Doug, and the listeners out there, keep these questions coming.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: We love answering them.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: You got that right.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Lou Meyer from the Davey Tree Expert Company is one of my favorite guests.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And to hear more, tune in every Thursday to the Talking Trees Podcast from the Davey Tree Expert Company.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Doug Oster.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And do me a big favor, subscribe to the podcast so you won't miss a show.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's a couple different ways to reach us.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got questions or comments, you can send us an email to podcast at Davey.com.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's P-O-D-C-A-S T-S at D A B E Y.com.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can also click the link at the end of our show notes to text us a fan mail message.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Your ideas could be on a future show.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear from you.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, we'd like to remind you on the Talking Trees podcast, trees are the answer.