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Writing The Go-Giver Marriage (with John David & Ana Mann) · The Daily Writer

0:11
SPEAKER_00: Hey my friend, welcome to this special Sunday edition of the Daily Rider.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Each weekday we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a successful writer.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: And here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with writers and teaching that helps us apply what we're learning.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: For more, you can visit us at dailyriderlife.com.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: So picture this.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: You're the co-author of an enormously successful business book series.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: You want to write another book in this series, but it's on a very different topic than the others.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: You also want to write it with your wife instead of the original co-author.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, you're also going to use a different publisher than the original book series had.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Does that sound like a challenge you would back away from?
0:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, most people would say yes, but not John David Mann.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, the series that I'm talking about is the ultra successful Go-Giver book series that began with 2008's The Go-Giver Book.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: The series was an enormous success, but it also happens to be one of my favorite books of all time.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: John David Mann and its co-author Bob Berg impacted countless lives with those books.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: However, The Go-Giver is primarily a business book series, and John wanted to write a Go-Giver book on marriage with his wife, Anna Gabriel Mann.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: They successfully pushed through all the potential challenges of a special situation like this, and they just released their new book, The Go-Giver Marriage, a little story about the five secrets to lasting love.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: Let me share a brief bio of each one so you can have a sense of how amazing these two individuals are.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: John David Mann is co-author of more than 30 books, including four New York Times bestsellers and five national bestsellers, including The Go Giver, which of course was co-authored with Bob Berg, and that book has sold over 1 million copies and won the 2017 Living Now Book Awards Evergreen Medal for its contributions to positive global change.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: John is married to Anna Gabriel Mann and considers himself the luckiest man in the world.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: Anna Gabriel Mann, MA, holds a master's degree in clinical psychology and dance movement therapy from Antioch, New England, where she specialized in working with adults in family therapy.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: In addition to her work in family therapy and five secrets of marriage coaching, she has been clinical director for a program for people with Alzheimer's disease, co-founded New England's first College of Chinese Medicine, and worked as a corporate consultant, speaker, trainer, and coach.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, as you can see, this was a very special conversation because John and Anna are two absolutely amazing individuals.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: And I was really excited to be able to sit down with them over Zoom, of course, and chat about the unique opportunities of writing this very special GoGiver book.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: They shared the process of writing the book, how they created a parable style book, why they included teaching section at the end of the book, how they divided up the writing of the book, the value of storytelling in the teaching process, and much, much more.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: So basically, I came up with my list of 587 questions and I pummeled them with these questions the whole time.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: Not quite that many questions, but I came with a lot of questions.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: And I was so thrilled with this conversation because I learned so much about storytelling, writing, co-writing, and the value of writing in a book series.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: I know you're going to love this conversation as much as I did.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: So let's get right to this interview with John David Mann and Anna Gabriel Mann.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: John and Anna, welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: It is an absolute thrill and an honor to have you both.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you taking time out to do the show today.
3:40
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
3:41
SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much.
3:42
SPEAKER_04: Great to be here after all these years, right?
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's great to be here for all these years.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, I am super excited about this conversation and have really been looking forward to it because not only do I love the GoGiver series and how it is unique, but I love the fact that you've done something different with it and the fact that you are married and have co-authored it.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: There's a whole bunch of elements to this, to this whole process that I find really, really fascinating.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: But I guess let me start out with this question.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, the GoGiver series is known for being more of a business series.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: So why do a GoGiver book about love and marriage?
4:14
SPEAKER_00: That's that's kind of a different direction for the series.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: And I'm super curious why use the the go-giver framework for a book about marriage and relationships.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: I'd I love how you've done that, and I'm curious as to your process with all that.
4:29
SPEAKER_04: Sweetheart?
4:30
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
4:33
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's it was a very organic process and it goes back to the roots of the Go Giver.
4:37
SPEAKER_04: The GoGiver, uh, as you readers might know, it came out in 2008, which I wrote with Bob Burke.
4:43
SPEAKER_04: Um, a little story about a powerful business idea is the so-titled.
4:48
SPEAKER_04: And the first draft of that book, it took a couple of years to get the press with that.
4:53
SPEAKER_04: So the first draft popped out of my desktop printer in 2005, right around this time of year, 2005.
4:59
SPEAKER_04: Anna, who is my first reader on every book I do, um, she picked up that first rough draft and read through it and said, This is phenomenal.
5:07
SPEAKER_04: And this describes how we are together.
5:09
SPEAKER_04: This would be a great book on marriage.
5:12
SPEAKER_04: So there we were, there we were like three years almost before the Go Giver was even published.
5:18
SPEAKER_04: Anna had this idea, we should do a Go Giver book about marriage.
5:22
SPEAKER_04: And um, it's it's it's just been something that we've intended to do ever since then.
5:26
SPEAKER_04: It's been it's been Anna's doing.
5:28
SPEAKER_04: It's really her spark, her dream, her vision, because this is her her life work, you know, couples, love, relationships, helping people live more fulfilled lives.
5:39
SPEAKER_04: So it's um it's Anna's baby.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: Love that.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: What what would you say that the challenges of taking taking a book?
5:53
SPEAKER_00: So so John, you've obviously done multiple books with Bob Berg in the series, and now you're kind of shifting writing teams.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you're the common denominator here with this.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Was that at all a different writing experience, writing with your wife as opposed to a different co-author?
6:07
SPEAKER_00: Now, the obvious answer is yes, but I guess my real question is in what ways is it different having Anna as a co-writer versus Bob Berg or and you've worked with a lot of authors too.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: So I'm just curious about that process.
6:19
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, it was really different.
6:21
SPEAKER_04: And I I was actually, and honestly, I didn't know what it would be like to work with Anna because we've done a lot of things together professionally.
6:28
SPEAKER_04: We've been in business together, we've done consulting together, as well as you know, building our lives together and a household together.
6:34
SPEAKER_04: So we know each other really well, obviously, but I'd never written with her before and I didn't know what that would be like.
6:41
SPEAKER_04: In in some ways, it was uh, you know, it was custom-made for us to do this way because we divide the book in two halves.
6:48
SPEAKER_04: The first half is called the parable, second half is called the practice.
6:52
SPEAKER_04: And the parable is my job, and the practice was Anna's contribution.
6:57
SPEAKER_04: It's really her perspective.
6:58
SPEAKER_04: It's kind of two perspectives on the same theme, the same idea, or the same content, really.
7:04
SPEAKER_04: The the storytelling view of it and the explanatory step-by-step, here's how this works, here's the psychological underpinning, you know, here's the the reason it works that Anna brings to the to the picture.
7:16
SPEAKER_04: Um, but it was it was very different.
7:19
SPEAKER_04: Um, because, you know, when I write another book, like with Bob Berg or with Brandon Webb, the Navy SEAL, or with others, the way I usually work is I kind of get to know them and their material, their thought process, and then I close the door and I go write the book.
7:35
SPEAKER_04: Uh meld their ideas with mine, put them together and spin a draft.
7:40
SPEAKER_04: It's really solitary.
7:41
SPEAKER_04: I gotta do it all by myself.
7:43
SPEAKER_04: And then when the draft is done, I open the door and show it to them, and we go back and forth and tinker and improve and fix and revise.
7:50
SPEAKER_04: But this the drafting process is pretty solitary.
7:53
SPEAKER_04: This was different because we live in the same house and we were kicking stuff back and forth every day.
7:59
SPEAKER_04: She would be in her office, you know, working on material and email it to me, and I would email a draft of my stuff to her.
8:06
SPEAKER_04: So I've never done anything like that before, where we really literally co-wrote day by day.
8:13
SPEAKER_04: And it was just, I almost thought I'd hate that, to be honest.
8:17
SPEAKER_04: I always thought, like, I like to do this my way.
8:19
SPEAKER_04: Don't anybody anybody interfere.
8:21
SPEAKER_04: It was great.
8:22
SPEAKER_04: It was just so much fun.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: Anna, what was that process like from your perspective?
8:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, John is a really phenomenal writer, so I kind of had no doubts that the final book would be great.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: I had spent years writing in academic circles, and that's a very different kind of writing.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, it really mattered to me that there's a psychological underpinning to every secret.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: And the truth about marriage is that the only person that can shift the marriage is you.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's really not about wrangling in a way that's um, you know, I'll give you this if you'll give me that.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, if you make a marriage transactional, everybody loses.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: And so this is a book that has mattered to me for a long time, simply because in my work as a therapist, um, for years, I worked in couples' groups where we would stop the action and teach.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, teach in a way that people could see their behavior, understand the toxic behaviors, and look at how to shift those.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: And so every secret has five, you know, secrets, and then there's the five toxic behaviors that oppose the secrets that are the opposites.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: And those five toxic behaviors are the things that take marriages down.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: So part of the process for me was wanting, really wanting to express that in a way that was authentic and real and at the same time actionable.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: So there's client stories in there, there's all kinds of you know, illumination, if you will, on why does it look this way?
10:03
SPEAKER_01: What does it look like when it's not working?
10:05
SPEAKER_01: How does it get shifted?
10:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, so that was really fun to write.
10:10
SPEAKER_04: Which was really cool for me because you know, sometimes when I'm working at a story, and and and you know this because I think we talked about this a little bit.
10:16
SPEAKER_04: Uh, story writing is really a very organic process for me.
10:19
SPEAKER_04: I don't start out, I have some ideas, but before I we started with this story, I knew what the five secrets were going to be.
10:26
SPEAKER_04: I kind of knew the basic eye basic outline, but I didn't know how the story was going to end.
10:31
SPEAKER_04: I didn't know where it was going.
10:32
SPEAKER_04: I didn't know how we were going to get to those five or how they would.
10:35
SPEAKER_04: It was all, you know, all I had was like push start, push go, and then let's kind of work it out as it goes.
10:41
SPEAKER_04: And it was so cool seeing what the material that Anna started producing because it was like she would write, she would like, she would take a theme or a piece of content and explain it and give clients stories and elaborate on it.
10:54
SPEAKER_04: And I would go, oh, that's what I meant.
10:58
SPEAKER_04: Because sometimes I don't know what I mean until I see it on the page.
11:01
SPEAKER_04: I don't know exactly where we're going until the story is kind of telling itself.
11:07
SPEAKER_04: Um, and so reading her material was a great process of discovery for me.
11:14
SPEAKER_04: This is this is stuff that we both know from our own lives as married people, and it's just human beings.
11:20
SPEAKER_04: She knows it from her expertise as a therapist and a coach.
11:25
SPEAKER_04: And I know it from my you know, my work just as a as a um as a coach in things like leadership and personal development.
11:33
SPEAKER_04: And we've both been married and worked through a lot of this material ourselves.
11:37
SPEAKER_04: But as a writer, it was really fun to see what she wrote and go, oh, that's what I meant when I said this in this chapter and in the in the story.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: And it also informed the story.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it shifted the story in some subtle ways because it it allowed John to go back into dialogues and make points that really were cogent to what I'd written.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it was a very much a partnership.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: And and that part was kind of unexpected for both of us.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't think that we went into the writing process being like, okay, I'll write half of it and you write half of it.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that we were really clear on the secrets, but I think the rest was just a great gift.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: No, I am curious, Anna, as as your work uh in your work as a coach and as a therapist, how do you know this book is about getting it has information?
12:30
SPEAKER_00: It has it has, you know, five aspects that you're trying to teach her specifically.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: In your work and as a coach and therapist, do people process this information differently when they are hearing it taught through a story as opposed to, hey, listen to a lecture, read a book on something?
12:46
SPEAKER_00: What is unique about the storytelling way of communication that has such a powerful impact?
12:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, to me, everything is understood through story.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: So even if you're talking to somebody about their own life and their own behavior within that marriage and within that life, it's a story.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's a story that they're telling you.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: So to frame it in a way that they begin to understand what material is theirs is really powerful for them because then they can say, Oh, I am criticizing him like often, frequently.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I think that story is very powerful, but I also believe that a lot of stories or parables, if they aren't clear and concise enough, sometimes don't illuminate the real message.
13:40
SPEAKER_01: And I think that um, you know, a great example is Who Moved My Cheese?
13:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was a phenomenal success, but there were people who really got it and there were people who hated it.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: Um and I think with all parables, there's there's people that you know say, Wow, this really opened my eyes, and then there's others who are like, it seemed obscure to me, I just didn't get it.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, so if the story is really rich, and I honestly think this is best, the best parable John's ever written.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, he's written with David Bach, he's written with Spencer Johnson, he's written with a lot of people.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, some pretty big names, and you know, Bob Berg, all of them.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: So I I mean, I just think this one is a jewel, and partly because in the middle of the story is like a piece of candy.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: There's a a fable within the parable, and the fable is used by the storyteller in the parable to illuminate the story further, and I think it's a genius, and I think it really illuminates the points, the secrets, and it illuminates real life in a very, in a very powerful way.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: So I I mean, I think story is king, but I think there's always a place for a more comprehensive explanation, and that's why we we, you know, we really set it up in two halves because we wanted people to be able to walk away and not feel like it was obscure or that it was like, yeah, I kind of get that.
15:14
SPEAKER_01: But you know, because when it comes down to marriage, you know, people will get really confused and they're really they want answers.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: And that's why marriage books are so successful and so powerful.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean, people go out of their ways to buy marriage books because they need they need help.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: They're trying to find answers.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: And so the didactic side of it where you're explaining things and you're teaching, in effect, um, I think that's also very powerful in this context.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: I didn't I did notice that, and I think this is a fascinating aspect of this particular GoGiver book, is that I believe now, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe this is the first one that has the section at the end where it goes in depth into the principles.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: And I really love that.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, that sort of explanation, that teaching component.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, that's not to take away from any of the previous books, but as a former college professor, I really saw that and I'm like, yes, I love the fact that there's like a kind of a didactic teaching portion at the end.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'm a former college professor as well.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: And I I get bored to tears with really dull teaching.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: I feel like being a teacher is a gift if you're good at it.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: Because you really have to engage your students, you really have to understand the material well enough to make it interesting.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: And so that's why the back of the book mattered so much to me.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, the front of the book is brilliant.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: It's just an amazing story.
16:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you know, I um oh god, I had something I was gonna say, but I got thrown up by by you two guys you're so fascinating to listen to.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Oh well, I'll throw a question out there, then John.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, and this is actually one of the questions I thought I was really thinking about.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: Is when you have these, when you're writing a parable style book and you have the main points or the teaching aspects that you want to communicate, how do you develop a story around those?
17:11
SPEAKER_00: Because I know normally whenever you're creating fiction, you have a character, you have a setting, maybe you have a plot, and you're writing toward that.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: But in this case, you have these particular road mile markers that you have to hit.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: How do you develop a story that is good, that's coherent, that feels organic around those kind of mile markers?
17:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, it's such a great question.
17:33
SPEAKER_04: And it's and it's as I'm hearing you ask the question, I'm thinking about it, and and it it's occurring to me it's not that different.
17:41
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I'll explain what I mean.
17:44
SPEAKER_04: Um so right now I'm working on a thriller.
17:47
SPEAKER_04: I I wrote my first novel last year, and we'll be talking about this in another show.
17:51
SPEAKER_04: Um, but uh so I'm very wrapped up right now.
17:54
SPEAKER_04: I'm on book three of the series.
17:56
SPEAKER_04: And so I'm fairly new to the novel process, constructing a you know, gigantic 400-page story.
18:03
SPEAKER_04: Um but it's a similar challenge, really, because if I have I have my character and I have my situation at the beginning, and I know I need to, as you say, hit certain markers in the story.
18:12
SPEAKER_04: I know there's going to be you know a certain murder or a certain clue or a certain revelation or a certain crisis, or the hero goes into extreme danger, you know, like three quarters, whatever.
18:24
SPEAKER_04: I know I know certain things just because they've come early, because they're because they're tantalizing ideas.
18:30
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then the question is let the story meander.
18:34
SPEAKER_04: I am a guy who likes outlines, but at the same time, my outlines are really fluid, they're changing constantly because I I often don't know my characters that well until I I'm really in the thick of the writing.
18:47
SPEAKER_04: And I often don't know what the possibilities in the story are until I'm in the thick of the writing.
18:51
SPEAKER_04: So, for example, I mean, this is a great question.
18:54
SPEAKER_04: You're right.
18:55
SPEAKER_04: I had we had these five laws.
18:57
SPEAKER_04: In the original goalgiver, by the way, we didn't.
18:59
SPEAKER_04: The original goalgiver, we just set out with the idea of give in, you know, give more in value than you take in payment or add value to people's lives.
19:08
SPEAKER_04: And the five laws, the original goalgiver, emerged out of the writing process.
19:14
SPEAKER_04: Umce that kind of set the pattern, we knew we knew that the five laws were going to be a blueprint that we would we would echo in all of the other goalgiver books.
19:24
SPEAKER_04: And we do.
19:25
SPEAKER_04: There's almost five principles.
19:26
SPEAKER_04: The first four are similar, and the fifth is always sort of seemingly paradoxical, but actually complementary to the first place.
19:32
SPEAKER_04: Like the thumb, thumb to the four finger to the four fingers, right?
19:35
SPEAKER_04: So the first four are about are about giving, and the fifth is always about receiving in some way.
19:40
SPEAKER_04: Uh uh, so knowing that for me, it's a question of I take the knowns of the story in a thriller.
19:50
SPEAKER_04: It's the murderer, it's the revelation of the identity, it's the it's the great danger, whatever.
19:56
SPEAKER_04: In this, it's the five laws, taking the knowns and setting them aside and letting them be in the back of my brain.
20:03
SPEAKER_04: I know they're back there somewhere, and now I'm gonna forget about them, and now I'm gonna follow my hero and whatever characters have cooked up and just kind of go with them and see where they go.
20:14
SPEAKER_04: If and it's a to me, it's a delicate balance.
20:17
SPEAKER_04: If I let the knowns and the this the a priori structure have too much influence, story is gonna feel artificial.
20:26
SPEAKER_04: So I've got to let the character and the character's situation and challenge quest, I've got to let that be front and center.
20:35
SPEAKER_04: Um, and so in this case, um, I knew that we had Tom and Tess, this young couple uh who are madly in love.
20:44
SPEAKER_04: They've been married for seven years, and they had this child with special needs who's thrown their lives into a ringer, and this is their big challenge.
20:52
SPEAKER_04: And Tom is at his the most important job interview of his life on day day one.
20:57
SPEAKER_04: The whole book takes place in a single day, the whole story.
21:00
SPEAKER_04: Tom's at a job interview, and I and I was sort of halfway through this job interview, and I thought, now how do I get the interviewer to start talking about marriage?
21:09
SPEAKER_04: How do I get him to start talking about like the first secret?
21:12
SPEAKER_04: I have no idea.
21:14
SPEAKER_04: In fact, every way I tried didn't work.
21:17
SPEAKER_04: It was like artificial to have the interviewer say, Well, Tom, you know, job qualifications are very important, but I wonder, how is your home life?
21:25
SPEAKER_04: I mean, that was just not gonna work.
21:27
SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
21:29
SPEAKER_04: So I had to figure out some way for this to work.
21:32
SPEAKER_04: Um, and that's where this fable wrapped inside the parable came up.
21:36
SPEAKER_04: You know, the what happens is I had this idea of what if I what if we had like Neil Gaiman parachute in and start telling a fairy tale?
21:45
SPEAKER_04: And uh I said, that's ridiculous, we can't do that.
21:48
SPEAKER_04: And then I thought, well, why not?
21:50
SPEAKER_04: Let's try.
21:51
SPEAKER_04: And because I had the thing set up for a week, it's gonna be over five days.
21:55
SPEAKER_04: I thought, what if they just do it in one day?
21:58
SPEAKER_04: And and so we had Neil Gain.
22:00
SPEAKER_04: Game and parachute in, not really.
22:02
SPEAKER_04: Really, what happened was the interviewers started telling this fairy tale.
22:05
SPEAKER_04: And Tom is like me, going, What's going on here?
22:09
SPEAKER_04: What are you talking about?
22:11
SPEAKER_04: All of that was all none of that was unknown when I started.
22:15
SPEAKER_04: It was all a surprise.
22:16
SPEAKER_04: And once the once the fable started rolling, it's like, oh, I could just I could see how this could work.
22:23
SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, then getting the other the other sequence to kind of roll in was just sort of a new challenge with every chapter.
22:30
SPEAKER_04: It's just it's it's like doing a puzzle where you have pieces that you're not sure if they even fit or not, and then you just kind of mess with it, mess with it, mess with it, and do it gently until things start to pop together.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: Now, can you both shed some light on the actual process of writing the book?
22:48
SPEAKER_00: So this is obviously a podcast for writers.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Writers are interested in all the uh the details of how a book is actually put together.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: About how long would you say, from the time you started writing on this book in earnest, how long was it until you finished uh a first draft of it?
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Now, I know but each of you did your own parts of the book, so maybe that's a bit of an unfair question, but I'm just curious, can you give us some sense of how long it took uh for the writing, revisions, those kinds of things?
23:17
SPEAKER_01: Sweetie.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: My sense is that the first draft was in eight weeks and that the final draft was in 12.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: Am I off on that, John?
23:26
SPEAKER_04: No, no, you're pretty accurate.
23:28
SPEAKER_04: I think maybe just a tiny bit longer, but not by much.
23:31
SPEAKER_04: It's and on the same would be true for all the goalgiver books.
23:34
SPEAKER_04: There's there's a long lead time, which we certainly had.
23:38
SPEAKER_04: We had a really long lead time because we started in 2005, just kind of playing with the idea.
23:43
SPEAKER_04: And we took uh a lot of time in our spare time, taking long walks together, just chatting about the ideas.
23:48
SPEAKER_04: So we were kicking some of the ideas around, but in a very distant way.
23:52
SPEAKER_04: I mean, in a very preliminary way for a long time, for months, maybe years.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: But we did start the book with the five secrets established.
24:01
SPEAKER_04: Once we started the book, we actually said, okay, it's time to start.
24:04
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm gonna say 12 weeks.
24:07
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's it it and that's been true for every go-giver book.
24:10
SPEAKER_04: It's been true for every parable I've written.
24:12
SPEAKER_04: The actual writing, once you start, it's it goes pretty quickly.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: And when you're working with with editors, do they, and I'm gonna just kind of ask this for all the go-giver books, do they typically have a lot of input into story points, things like that?
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Or with these kinds of books, has your experience been that editors are fairly hands-off?
24:34
SPEAKER_01: I I would like to answer that.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, John is such a pro that there are major editors in New York that call him the Parable King.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: And they do not touch the story.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he turns in a manuscript that is so polished and so finished that no one ever makes a tweak on it.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I mean, I like to have my say.
24:58
SPEAKER_04: I like to have my say after this.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, when it comes to novels, when it comes to novels and other things like that, obviously editors have had huge weigh-ins on ways that the story could be shifted, things like that.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: And John, and I want to say this to every writer listening, John always takes the advice of editors.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that they know how to fix it, but if they know something's wrong, he always listens.
25:23
SPEAKER_04: So, what I want to add to that is we had um we work with Ben Bella, the um publisher on this book, which is the first time I've worked with them, the first time neither of us have worked with them.
25:32
SPEAKER_04: And they did something really fascinating, which the um they they had a wonderful editor and staff who worked with us, but they also brought in uh a third-party editor.
25:42
SPEAKER_04: They actually hired an editor from the outside world to work with us on this book, a novelist, wonderful guy.
25:48
SPEAKER_04: And he was just wonderful in the process.
25:52
SPEAKER_04: He had a few little things to say.
25:54
SPEAKER_04: He he adjusted, he made a suggestion to adjust one passage that we were like, oh yeah, you're so right.
26:01
SPEAKER_04: So he had he had the most minute, he had a very delicate touch.
26:05
SPEAKER_04: Um, he hardly touched the story at all.
26:07
SPEAKER_04: The the things he did do were were enormously valuable to the story.
26:12
SPEAKER_04: And it's kind of been like that with all the Go Giver books.
26:14
SPEAKER_04: There have been little tweaks, um, but but very few, very few, very few.
26:19
SPEAKER_04: My experience with as Anna says with the novels and with a lot of the other books I've done has been very, very different.
26:25
SPEAKER_04: Um, I've had for some of the other books, one of my books called Mastering Fear.
26:30
SPEAKER_04: I had an editor uh guide me in chopping out about 30% of the manuscript my originals have edited.
26:36
SPEAKER_04: And it was it was a much better book for it.
26:39
SPEAKER_04: Um the novel started out, the first novel started out at 200 and and and I want to so sorry, 152,000 words.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh my.
26:48
SPEAKER_04: By the end, it was a hundred thousand.
26:50
SPEAKER_04: We took out every third word, basically.
26:53
SPEAKER_04: And you know, the editor is like, I now I understand why when you read a novel and you get to the end, you read the acknowledgments and they and they go on and on and rhapsodizing about their wonderful editors.
27:02
SPEAKER_04: I always like to wonder who are these editors?
27:04
SPEAKER_04: Now I know, just they're golden.
27:07
SPEAKER_04: Um, but for the parables, because a parable is so stripped down, it's so simplified a form, it's like a novel that you've cooked on your stovetop and you've reduced to a sauce.
27:19
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's just taken down to its bare minimum.
27:22
SPEAKER_04: And because it's so rarefied of a form, you've kind of gone over every word really carefully by the time the manuscript is done.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: That's really good to hear about editors because so many writers perceive that editors are kind of the bad guy or they're the advocate.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: And you know, there are a lot of authors who feel like, well, what I'm turning in is like the golden, you know, the Ten Commandments or the Golden Plates or whatever.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's really good to hear that perspective.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, authors who are as established as both of you are and so respected in your fields to still take the advice of editors.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's a not only a great testament, but kind of a marker of professionalism.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, editors are there for a reason, right?
28:10
SPEAKER_01: I I agree completely.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: And I also want to say um John is incredibly humble in the face of an editor.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: And he will definitely take their advice, he will definitely listen to their counsel, and he will definitely go back to the manuscript and really examine the structure and things.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: One of the ways that John is really very strong is that he really is a structure genius.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: He was actually a composer ahead of being a writer and um and actually won awards for composition.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: So I think that, you know, in a in a musical composition, you know, there's beautiful bridges, and then there's the the way the melody comes back in and floats, and then there's, you know, maybe some little solo piece that comes through.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, he really understands all of those elements of what make the story fascinating and interesting at the same time, really holding on to a structure.
29:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, when I do podcasts by myself, there's nobody saying all these glorious things about me about that.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: I have read all 35 books he's written, and I am the first reader, and I actually think I could have been an editor because I really feel like, you know, he has said it on every podcast we've been on that that I am his best reader simply because I know instinctively when something's wrong.
29:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean I have any clue how to fix it, but I know instinctively if something's wrong.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: And that's the truth of a good editor.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: They may not know how to fix it, but they definitely will know something's wrong.
29:37
SPEAKER_04: But I want to add something to that, which is um she's talking about how I take editors' comments.
29:41
SPEAKER_04: So I'll just give you an example, the the last novel I turned in, the editor came back after two weeks of sitting with the manuscript and had a bunch of comments.
29:52
SPEAKER_04: And some of them just like pierced me to my core.
29:56
SPEAKER_04: I mean, you could have stabbed me with a knife and it would have hurt less, hurt less.
30:00
SPEAKER_04: And and um I wrote back to her and said, I need a few days.
30:06
SPEAKER_04: And what I said to myself, and I think I said it out loud to Anna, was I I know that she's right, but I can't see how this is how this could possibly work right now.
30:19
SPEAKER_04: I can't see how I could make the changes that she's talking about and not lose so much that the book is needs, is vital to the book.
30:28
SPEAKER_04: I can't see how I'm not gonna cripple the book by doing what she says.
30:31
SPEAKER_04: I know intellectually, just because of past experience, that if I do what she says, if I if I work through her suggestions and find my way to implement that, it's gonna result in a better book.
30:44
SPEAKER_04: I know that, but I can't see it.
30:47
SPEAKER_04: And I couldn't, I'm gonna need a couple of days.
30:50
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna need at least three or four days, and I had to just put it away and not try not to think about it, and then start to come back and take her suggestions one at a time and say, oh, okay, wait, wait, wait.
31:03
SPEAKER_04: What if we did this?
31:05
SPEAKER_04: And you know, lo and behold, every suggestion she made, the book got better.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: It it got much better, and there were some points about the way that one particular character was was speaking, that you know, he and I went back and forth on it, and I really agreed with the editor, and it had to be shifted.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: The way she was speaking had to be shifted.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: She was Ukrainian, and it just had to be done in a way that was respectful to her as a woman and also respectful to the Ukrainian language.
31:36
SPEAKER_04: Brandon and I went back and forth on one scene and just brainstorming, brainstorming, brainstorming, and we we packed so much like brilliance into the scene.
31:43
SPEAKER_04: At the end of that, I thought, like, oh my god, this is great.
31:45
SPEAKER_04: This is like the best thing we've ever done together before.
31:47
SPEAKER_03: We took it out, it's gone.
31:52
SPEAKER_04: And the book is better.
31:53
SPEAKER_04: The book is better for it.
31:54
SPEAKER_04: So this did this does not happen with parables, by and large, but it does happen with with my other stuff.
31:59
SPEAKER_04: And it's a process that I gotta I gotta admit, it's a roller coaster, but I thoroughly enjoy it because I see the result.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: And what did Lu Bernie say about your book?
32:10
SPEAKER_04: What did he say?
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh he said it's a uh a study in a study in uh study in craft.
32:17
SPEAKER_04: Study and craft study in the craft, that's right.
32:19
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's sweet.
32:20
SPEAKER_04: A study in the craft.
32:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, really sweet.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, as we head into the home stretch here, I I I have to to ask you about uh about this because I think it's it's going to be interesting to a lot of our listeners, and that is having a book that is part of a series.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: So, of course, we all know that there's a lot of advantages to having a book series.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: What has your experience been launching the Go Giver Marriage as part of an ongoing Go Giver series, let's say versus doing something that is a standalone thing?
32:51
SPEAKER_00: Have you found that there's a lot of great momentum that comes from having a book that's part of an ongoing series?
32:59
SPEAKER_04: I'll say yes.
33:00
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it there is always a yes and yes and no aspect to a question like that, but there yes for sure, in part because there are there is this core body of people who are in love with the goalgiver books, particularly the first book, the one that is is best known, um, who have been hungering for, clamoring for a goalgiver book about relationships.
33:20
SPEAKER_04: So there was kind of a there was a core, hardcore, ready-made audience.
33:23
SPEAKER_04: It's not huge, but it's there, and that was lovely.
33:26
SPEAKER_04: Um, it's been lovely to just speak to that group.
33:29
SPEAKER_04: And it's funny, our all the podcasts we've done, the interviews we've done have been a mix between people who know the goalgiver and people for whom this is all brand new.
33:36
SPEAKER_04: Seriously, yeah, yeah, because we've been on podcasting.
33:39
SPEAKER_04: We've been on a lot of podcasts that are marriage related, and so they're like marriage focused, and their audience, their their their listenership, you know, knows all about, you know, heard all about they don't know the goalgiver from from Adam.
33:51
SPEAKER_04: So it's it's been really interesting.
33:53
SPEAKER_04: It's been an equally lovely reception in both places.
33:57
SPEAKER_04: Um, the thing that is, of course, so challenging, which is about writing a book in a series, is that you you need it's it's this it's the curse of the sequel in any any situation where you need to in part fulfill the reader's expectations from the previous books and in part blow their minds by doing something different.
34:17
SPEAKER_04: It has to be different but recognizable, the same but new.
34:21
SPEAKER_04: So it's that paradox of the series.
34:23
SPEAKER_04: And I think in relation to the Go Giver series, it's it's been a it's been a real blessing for us.
34:28
SPEAKER_04: Anything, sweetheart.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: I do, and I think that um, yeah, I I feel like it's been a blessing.
34:36
SPEAKER_01: At the same time, we have met people who have they're aware of the original Go Giver, but they are not aware of any of the other books in the series.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: Right.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Phenomenal to me.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: It's only in serious, high-level business circles that it's getting that that the different books are getting traction.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: Like the the book on sales, obviously it has a niche.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, people in sales are sharing that book.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: But it is very surprising to me that we actually met people by accident at a book reading um at a books, major bookstore here in Tampa.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: And they had no idea.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: They were like, oh, the go-giver marriage, but they didn't know any of the other books in the series beyond the go-giver.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: It was shocking to us.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, in some ways, there's a there's momentum from the fact that people know about it, but believe it or not, it still comes down to what's your platform?
35:29
SPEAKER_01: How well can you move books and and how well can you reach the community of readers that read the other books?
35:36
unknown: Yeah.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: And that's been challenging.
35:39
SPEAKER_04: You know, we find that people that our friends who aren't in the book business, who don't who aren't authors who don't know publishing, we'll tell them, you know, books don't sell themselves, and publishers don't sell your book.
35:50
SPEAKER_04: You when you publish a book, the only way it ever launches, it gets escape velocity and lifts off the earth and goes anywhere is is you're you're there lifting every copy.
36:00
SPEAKER_04: You're there talking to every new reader, you're there actually lifting it.
36:03
SPEAKER_04: And people who aren't in publishing are shocked, they have they have no idea.
36:07
SPEAKER_04: They think that we just write books and the publishers make them magically fly into the hands of a hundred thousand people.
36:14
SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, we know that's not how it works.
36:16
SPEAKER_04: How it works is you finished writing the book and your job has just started.
36:20
SPEAKER_04: Now you have to go find people and sit down with them and say, Hey, see this book?
36:24
SPEAKER_04: You should try it.
36:25
SPEAKER_04: Read it.
36:26
SPEAKER_04: Let me read a little bit of it to you.
36:27
SPEAKER_04: I'll read you a chapter and then see how you what you think about reading the rest of it.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and the go-giver has sold over a million copies, but that's 12 years of heavy lifting.
36:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
36:38
SPEAKER_01: It they do not just walk off the shelves without somebody being out there promoting all the time.
36:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's Bob.
36:46
SPEAKER_04: Bob did that with the Go Giver, really.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: So, John, has this been uh has this been a challenge with the Go Giver Marriage coming out now?
36:54
SPEAKER_00: And then is it in June that your next book comes out?
36:57
SPEAKER_00: Do I have that?
36:58
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yes, you're yeah, you do have that right.
37:01
SPEAKER_04: It is it wasn't intentional, first of all.
37:02
SPEAKER_04: So the go-giver marriage came out on March 8th, and the next thriller comes out on June 7th.
37:08
SPEAKER_04: So it's like 90 days apart.
37:10
SPEAKER_04: I'm not really promo mode.
37:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, really.
37:13
SPEAKER_04: Two different publishers, two different publishers, two different readerships mostly.
37:16
SPEAKER_04: There's an overlap of people who know my stuff who love both books, but it's yeah, it is a little the only way in which it's really challenging is for me personally, in that, as you say, it's like I gotta slip from uh uh go give her marriage promotion to cold fear promotion, you know, slipping from lovely relationships to serial killers and and uh and navy seals.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: But but and that's sometimes inside of an hour, you know.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he gets a podcast and gets on another one, and the you know, he has a completely different background on his Zoom, and he has to slip into his, you know, thrilling.
37:49
SPEAKER_04: But I don't but I don't find it you know uh difficult at all.
37:53
SPEAKER_04: It's just it's the same love of writing, it's the same love of characters, it's the same love of story, and it's the same readers who appreciate these things.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: I think this is a wonderful model because you know the books you're doing with with Brandon Webb are very different than the Go Giver books.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I think it's a good example for everybody who's listening that you don't have to be confined to just one type of book or one genre or one niche.
38:16
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yes, I so agree with that.
38:18
SPEAKER_04: I so agree.
38:19
SPEAKER_04: And it's this it's new for me.
38:20
SPEAKER_04: I guess honestly, for me, starting to write novels, thrillers, after what I've been writing is almost like taking a whole new career.
38:29
SPEAKER_04: And uh juggling the two mindsets, I had thought might be really strange and weird.
38:35
SPEAKER_04: I I thought that when the first thriller came out, nobody who's read my other books would be interested.
38:40
SPEAKER_04: All my people are like they're into personal development and leadership and being a nice person and getting along really well and making the world a better place.
38:48
SPEAKER_04: Like I come out with this novel about a about a traumatized Navy SEAL chasing a serial killer in an aircraft carrier.
38:55
SPEAKER_04: And so I told my people, my audience, kind of like almost reluctantly, it's like, by the way, I'm doing this filler.
39:03
SPEAKER_04: And most of them were like, Really?
39:06
SPEAKER_04: Oh wow, I can't wait to read it.
39:08
SPEAKER_04: I love those books.
39:09
SPEAKER_04: I was surprised.
39:10
SPEAKER_04: You know what?
39:10
SPEAKER_04: It's just human beings, they love they love everything.
39:14
SPEAKER_04: So I I love it.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: Well, John and Anna, it has been an absolute pleasure and honor to have you both on the Daily Writer Podcast.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate both of you.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: Love the new book.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, I just love everything that you both are doing.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: So I want to just say thanks again.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate everything you're adding to writers all over the world uh and all the goodness you're adding.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: So thanks again.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
39:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, where can everybody find out more about the Go Giver Marriage book as well as what both of you are doing on a professional level?
39:47
SPEAKER_04: Our website is go givermarriage.com.
39:51
SPEAKER_04: And on that site you'll find the book and you'll find all kinds of lovely things that all kinds of lovely people have said about the book, uh, as well as links to buy from your favorite vendor.
40:01
SPEAKER_04: We also have programs we're doing.
40:03
SPEAKER_04: Uh, this is actually, Kent, this is like not just a book launch, it's kind of a career launch.
40:08
SPEAKER_04: This is a whole kind of a calling for us.
40:10
SPEAKER_04: And so we're doing a lot of work around the themes of the book.
40:13
SPEAKER_04: We have workshops that we do, live workshops on Zoom for people, um, called Living the Five Secrets.
40:20
SPEAKER_04: Uh, and they're open to anybody, the right there on the website.
40:23
SPEAKER_04: We have we're starting a program where we're coaching go-giver marriage coaches, teaching, training, and certifying goal marriage coaches.
40:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
40:32
SPEAKER_04: Helping people to learn or teaching people how to become goalgiver marriage coaches themselves and make that actually a little a professional practice, um, not marriage therapy, but individual coaching.
40:43
SPEAKER_04: And that's on the website.
40:45
SPEAKER_04: Anna's own individual coaching that she does.
40:48
SPEAKER_04: Uh, her coaching work and counseling work is there on the website.
40:52
SPEAKER_04: So it's it's all there.
40:53
SPEAKER_04: All the goal giver marriage work is there on that site.
40:56
SPEAKER_04: Wonderful.
40:56
SPEAKER_04: Wonderful.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you both again.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: This has been an absolute blast, and I can't wait to have you back again.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: It will be so much.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: I had an absolute blast talking with John and Anna.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: And now, something that's really cool is that I was able to interview John as well about his new book that's coming out in June called Cold Fear, and that will come out in a couple of months, right around the time that his new book comes out.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: So, as you can see, John is a very, very busy guy, and I really appreciated him and Anna taking some time out to do this podcast interview.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: If I had to choose one takeaway from this conversation, and my goodness, there's so many great takeaways that that I learned from these guys, but if I had to pick one, I would say it's the value of having a co-author.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: John has written with a lot of different people and he's had a lot of success doing that.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: And as a ghostwriter, I of course am collaborating with people.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's most of the time it's behind the scenes, and others don't necessarily know about my collaboration with them.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: But sometimes my name is on the cover of the books, and it's more of a public kind of collaboration.
41:57
SPEAKER_00: But anyway you slice it, anytime that you're writing for someone else or with someone else, there that there's a collaboration happening creatively.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: And I learned so much from John and Anna about working together, about the value of storytelling, about a process for creating a really fascinating book out of a series.
42:14
SPEAKER_00: And man, there's just so many great takeaways here.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to strongly encourage you to grab their book, The Go Giver Marriage, and you can get that on Amazon or Barnes Noble, or you can go straight to their website, which is gogivermarriage.com.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: And of course, you'll find links to purchase the book there along with some other cool things as well.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope that you enjoyed this.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: I encourage you to not just put into practice what you've learned from John and Anna today, but go check out their websites.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: There will be links to their social channels in the show notes, so I encourage you to check those out.
42:42
SPEAKER_00: And of course, I want to thank John and Anna for taking time out of their extremely busy podcast interview schedule for this book to have this conversation with me.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: So thank you all so, so much.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, that wraps up this episode of The Daily Rider.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.