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Protective Pathways with Dr Julia Rudolph · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Gooday, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. The world is imperfect,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: The world is full of people who have horrible motives.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: And today on the podcast, a conversation that I wish
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: we didn't have to have because I wish that people
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: had just treated children the way they should. Unfortunately, there
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: is this thing called abuse, sexual abuse specifically, and everything
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: that we do as parents, we just want to keep
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: our kids safe. What if the conversations we've been having
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: with our children are not helping? What if they're ineffective?
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: What if there are more effective things that we can
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: do to keep our kids safe. Today on the pod,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: a conversation with doctor Julia Rudolph, who is a child
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: sexual abuse prevention specialist and the founder of Protective Pathways.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: She's going to turn some of our well trodden ideas
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: on their head and talk to us about how we
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: can shift our thinking to keep kids safe. That's next,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: stay with us. Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. You
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: get real parenting solutions every single day. This is Australia's
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: most downloaded parenting podcast. I'm doctor Justin Colson, her dad
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: to six daughters, and I'm not gonna lie when it
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: comes to keeping kids safe. This is something that has
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: been front and center in my mind since the day
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  Speaker 1: my first child was born. We're going back nearly twenty
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: seven years or thereabouts, five more daughters after that, and
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  Speaker 1: it's been a conversation that we've had consistently in our home. Kids.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: It's not up to you. It shouldn't be up to you,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: but there are bad people out there and the world's
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  Speaker 1: not perfect, so we need you to know how to
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: stay safe. Doctor Julia Rudolph is a child sexual abuse
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: prevention specialist and the founder of Protective Pathways. She's worked
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: in frontline child protection in Australia and the UK, completed
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: a PhD in sexual abuse prevention, conducted and published research
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: in this field, and contributed to national child sexual abuse policy.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Through Protective Pathways, she works with parents, cares and people
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: who work with children to understand how grooming operates and
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: how to create safer in environments for children young people
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: that disrupt the grooming process and reduce the risk of
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: sexual abuse. It's such an important conversation, Julia, I'm so
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: glad you're with me today. What do parents need to
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: understand about how child sexual abuse actually unfolds?
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  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me justin So, Yeah, when people think
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: about sexual abuse, they might imagine kind of a violent
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: attack or something that is certainly scary or frightening or
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: at least anxiety producing or upsetting for a child. But
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: that's not really how sexual abuse usually happens. So usually
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: it happens slowly, deliberately, over time with someone the child
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: knows or is close to, and offenders use this pattern
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: of behavior with a child and with the environment to
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: allow the abuse to happen and to ensure it stays hidden.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: And offenders use these or work in typical ways. And
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: that's what we call brooming. And there's several reasons why parents,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: all adults, but especially parents really need to know about grooming.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: The fact is that it is extremely common, so it
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: is kind of a fundamental part of the sexual abuse process.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: In fact, recent research in the US shows that ninety
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: nine percent of survivors experienced some form of grooming throughout
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: the abuse that they experience, so it's a fundamental part
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: of it. The second reason is that explains why some survivors,
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: some children weren't able to recognize, react, and report at
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: the time that the abuse was happening. Because grooming feels
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: like friendship, care, or love, and it's specifically designed to
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: undermine a child's ability to do those things. The third
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: reason is that offenders don't just groom children, so that
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: might be a misunderstanding as well. They groom the adults
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: around children as well, And which adults depends on the context,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: so it can be parents, careers, colleagues, workplaces, times, whole communities.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: So as adults, we also need to be aware or
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: recognize grooming when we are the targets of the grooming.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: And then also, and this is the good news. So
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: because grooming is a pattern, it's recognizable, and that means
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: it's interruptible, and that's the good news. If we're able
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: to recognize this pattern, then we're able to interrupt it.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk about that. I'm just reflecting as
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: you're speaking. I had no idea that this was going
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: on when I was a child, but I was involved
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: in a group, in a community, group of an organization.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I suppose you'd call it. That is global. And I'm
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: not going to mention it because I just the whole
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: thing just feels awful now that I know what happened.
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  Speaker 1: But I remember driving home one day with my dad,
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  Speaker 1: and he seemed really agitated, really really upset, and when
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I spoke to him, he just said, I need to
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  Speaker 1: ask you a question, and you need to be absolutely
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: honest with me. And I said sure, Like I'm just
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: a no, a ten or eleven year old kid. I'm like,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: you know, okay, dad, whatever you say. And then he
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: asked me if anybody had ever done the wrong thing
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: with me, had it ever touched me inappropriately? And I
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: just remember thinking that's a weird question. No, Like it
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: was just a very easy thing for me to say
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: no because it hadn't happened. But it transpired, and I
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: found out some years later that in that organization, one
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: of the adult leaders who was very very very close
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: with all of the parents whose children were participating in
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: this children focused activity, one of those leaders had abused
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: several of the children in that group. This is a
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: classic case of grooming right like friends and close to
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: the parents, relationships have trust at the adult level as
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: well as at the child level, and all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 1: there are these children. I say all of a sudden,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: but it wasn't all of a sudden. This was like
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: a ten, twelve, fifteen year relationship. So you're not in
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: your head and saying yeah, like that's exactly what you'd expect.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: But for some people that we thinking, hang on, that's
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: not what I expect. Can you walk through what does
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: grooming look like? How can parents recognize it? Because because
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: it is actually just we're friends, right, this is somebody
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: that we trust, somebody we have dinner with, go to
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: a barbecue with a ten church or go to the
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: sports club with. This is really hard to get your
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: head around.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: It is. It is, it's really and it's really confronting.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: And grooming has like I said, it's a pattern. And
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: as we don't we have to understand the abuse doesn't
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: start with abuse. As I just said, it's a very
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: gradual and slow process. And also it's important to know
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: that it happens online as well. So I teach parents
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: about what it looks like online and offline because there's
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: roughly similar patterns. So to help parents recognize grooming, I
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: developed a model based on basically fulty plus years of
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: research and ten years of my own research, call the
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Five Seas of Grooming, and it allows parents just to
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: kind of have a memorable and practical framework. So the
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Five Seas of grooming are choose, connect off, cross boundaries,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: and control. So I'll just tell you about them really briefly.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: So in the first stage, an offender choose as a
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: child and a care environment based on ease of access, vulnerability,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: and opportunity. And like I said, that happens online too,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: So offenders are unbelievably good at deducing a vulnerable care
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: environment or child based on the child's online behavior and
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: pattern abuse.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: So, Juliet, before you move on to the second of
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: those five c's when you say choose, my read of
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: the research is that there are specific characteristics, there are
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: specific families, specific children who may be more vulnerable to abuse.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: I know not it going to happen across the spectrum,
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  Speaker 1: but it does tend to. As I understand, the research
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: cluster in certain areas more than others. Am I right
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: about that? And if so, how would you describe those populations?
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: You are right? So the research we've got now again
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: forty plus years of research on risk factors. But I
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: don't want to suggest that there are children you know,
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  Speaker 2: there are only these children, only these hair environments that
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  Speaker 2: are targeted. So certainly all parents need to be aware
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  Speaker 2: of this because we can go on a balance of
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  Speaker 2: evidence type thing. But obviously it can happen anywhere at
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: any time, so yeah, research it. And also I want
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: parents to know that if they have a child who
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: has these vulnerabilities, then it doesn't mean the child will
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: be abused, you know, but knowing about the vulnerabilities actually
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  Speaker 2: does help because it allows us to be more conscious,
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  Speaker 2: you know, more protective if we know that our child
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  Speaker 2: has one of these vulnerabilities. So I also don't want
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  Speaker 2: to scare parents by saying, you know, these are the
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: vulnerabilities and they think, oh, my child fits that category,
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  Speaker 2: that you know that means that that they will be abused.
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  Speaker 2: That's not certainly not the case either. But we do
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: know that children with a disability, children who have some
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: kind of perhaps trauma in their past, or have experienced
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: adverse childhood experiences, so bullying, other types of abuse, children
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: who are have some emotional or psychological difficulties, children where
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: they've experienced either the death of a parent or separation
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: of parents, so that kind of thing. So, you know,
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  Speaker 2: children who have experienced some trauma or experiencing some difficulties.
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  Speaker 2: And then we also have certain home environments that are
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  Speaker 2: a little bit more at risk. And that's something that
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  Speaker 2: you know, for example, a home where there's loose kind
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: of rules around supervision, or lots of adults coming and going,
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  Speaker 2: so parents who perhaps are not certain of who's looking
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: after which children at what time, or who's doing intimate
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: care duties such as nappy changes or bathing and kind
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: of you know, loose routines that kind of thing. So
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  Speaker 2: these are the kind of families or children that are
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: more vulnerable. And if that was something that fit your experience,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: then you know, allowing us to kind of put strong
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: or protections in place when we know those things is
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: obviously helpful. But I don't want to other scare parents
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: or suggest that only those situations.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'd add to that when I think back
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: on the children, the boys that I'm aware of who
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: were harmed by this particular leader in my childhood growing up,
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  Speaker 1: some of them fit that vulnerable category quite just really
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: really easily. But there were a couple of boys who
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  Speaker 1: came from what you could only describe as really strong,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: really together, really connected families with strong supervision, Mum and
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: dad in the home, earning decent money, heavily involved in
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: their kids' lives. I asked the question because I know
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: that there are certain vulnerabilities, but your point is this
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  Speaker 1: can happen anywhere, and so parents do need to be
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: mindful of it. Let's talk about those other four c's.
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  Speaker 1: What's the second one?
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  Speaker 2: So the second one is connect So this is where
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: our fenders work to build trust and rapport again not
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: just with the child, but with the adults around the
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: child as well. And then the next stage is cutting off. Now,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: this stage is about cutting the child off physically and emotionally,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: and it is the most important of all the five seas,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: and I stress this to parents in my sessions. Abuse
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: can't happen without that step. The next one is crossing boundaries.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: So once the first three have been achieved, the offender
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: then gradually crosses boundaries and desensitizers again not just the child,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: the adults around them as well. And this is the
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: phase where the contact sexual abuse would then occur. And
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: then once abuse has occurred, offenders use emotional manipulation and
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: threats to maintain the abuse and to avoid detection. So
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: that's the control phase. So yeah, they're the five seas
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: of grooming. And you know parents might be thinking, well,
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: if grooming looks like friendship, care or love. Then how
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: can I distinguish it from healthy adult relationships because children
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: need those healthy adult relationships. They're actually protective because it
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: kind of adds to a child support network, so they're
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: really important. So I work really hard in my sessions
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: to make sure that you know, we're looking at these
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: side by side. We look at risky behaviors and healthy behaviors,
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: and healthy relationships and risky relationships side by side, and
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: then you can really see the qualitative differences between the two.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: So this is the bit where normally, as a parent,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: you'd say, well, I guess I have to do the
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: child education. I have to do the teaching of my
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: child to recognize and report abuse. I wish I didn't
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: have to, but the well, it's not perfect, and therefore
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: that's what I need to do. Your work suggests that
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: this may not be effective.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've placed for a really long time.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: We've placed a lot of faith in the idea that
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: if we give children the right information, then they'll be
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: able to keep themselves safe. So this strategy has different names.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: I'll call it protective behaviors education, but it's referred to
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: as all sorts of things, and the content varies between
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: the courses, but basically they're teaching children to recognize bodily
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: signs and then some form of the no go tell,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: which is kind of what I refer to as recognize,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: react and report. And so I could go into a
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: little bit of the history. But we started using this
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: method it was actually based on in the nineteen seventies
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: because we didn't have any evidence. It kind of exploded
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: onto the scene sexual abuse with some really awful cases
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: and really high prevalence rates, and policymakers really didn't know
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: what to do. There was no evidence to guide prevention,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: and so they borrowed what the anti rape movement was
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: using at the time with women and children, which was
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: teaching them self defense strategies to ward off rapists in
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: a kind of violent sexual assault situation. So this was
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: done a lot in Australia. In the US, I as
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: a girl of about eight or nine, attended a self
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: defense session where I was taught how I could try
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: to fend off an adult male. So the sexual abuse
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: prevention feel at the time borrowed this and they then
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: applied it to children, So teaching children self defense strategies
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: to help protect themselves, and after a while the anti
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: rape movement moved on from their self defense technique, but
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: the protective behavior's education remained as the main form of
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: prevention that we've been doing for forty years. But there
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: are some really serious limitations with this, especially relying on
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: this as our main prevention method. The first one is
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: that it places the responsibility for prevention on to the
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: victim of the violence, which in this case is piled
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: and we don't do this with any other form of
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: safety initiative or violence prevention. We don't do it with
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: physical abuse, with bullying, with racial harassment, with rape, you know,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: we don't say it's your job to stop this. We
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: expect community intervention, perpetrator deterrent, you know, we don't expect
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: the victims to stop it. The second issue is that
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: when children have this education in schools, parents are largely
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: left out of prevention, and they're the key to prevention,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: and over the last forty years they've been left out
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: to a large extent, and when they are involved, their
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: role has been limited to that of educator. So we
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: teach parents how to teach their children about these recognized
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: react and report techniques, but research shows that that's maybe
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: not the best way to use parents. So in my
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: research with parents, I found that even very well informed
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: parents about the risks of sexual abuse, or very highly
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: educated parents, parents who are actually very very supportive of
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: this method, have not given their children comprehensive messages. So
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: parents are not very good at doing this is what
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: my research shows, or actually what a lot of research
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: shows that parents are not. Even though we're encouraging parents
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: to give children this information, they're not doing it on
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: a consistent or in a comprehensive way, And so my
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: research suggests that parents might not be best users educators. Next,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: we don't have a lot of robust evidence to suggest
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: that it actually works to reduce sexual abuse. So I
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: did a study with about one two hundred people, mostly
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: younger people, which was published in twenty twenty two, and
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: I actually didn't find an association between childhood education, both
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: at home and at school and rates of sexual abuse.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: What I did find associated with lower rates of sexual
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: abuse was protective parenting. So that's one of the reasons
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: why I do what I do, or what I have
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: you know, has really confirmed my other research and the
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: position that I take that I look at adult action
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: rather than child education.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Surely, I'm sitting here listening to you, and I'm just
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: thinking this is so hard for parents, Like, we don't
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: want to be helicopter parents, but we do have to
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: be protective, and we like, there's just so much to
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: balance here. We need to take a quick break. After
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: the break, I want to get really practical. This is
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: where we have that part of the conversation where you
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: just tell us what we're supposed to do, because listening
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: at this conversation can feel a little bit heavy. So
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: right after the break, what are some practical things parents
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: can do to protect their children, especially since we really
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: want to put this on parents, not kids. Stay with us.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: We're back.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast talking about how parents can
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: help their kids to stay safe. Doctor Julia Rudolph is
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: a child protection researcher and practitioner based on the Gold
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Coast and founder of Protective Pathways. Julia, let's just get
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: straight into the practical stuff. What are in your experience
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: and your research the most practical things that parents can
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: do to protect their children.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I teach parents about what grooming looks like
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: online and offline with the five c's and then I
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: teach them about the creation of safe environments and that's
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: I use or I developed a framework call safe. So
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: again it's based on forty plus research with offenders with
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: the survivors on risk factors, as well as my own
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: research and safe outlines for areas where parents and other
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: adults can be protective. So it stands for supervision and monitoring,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: accessing and assigning care, family rules and boundaries, and engagement
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: and communication. So supervision and monitoring is the cornerstone of safe.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: It is the basis of any effective prevention strategy. So
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: it's actually counteracting that sea that I mentioned before, which
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: is the most critical, see the cutting off, So it
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: really counteracts those So here we're talking about I think
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: we all know what supervision is. It's being there, having
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: eyes on your child, but monitoring is really really important
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: part of that. So monitoring is not about policing, but
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: it's about being aware, being aware of where, where your
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: child is, who they're with, what's happening. I'm sure your
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: parents might have questions about sleepovers and things like that.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: So it's about knowing the family where your child is
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: going and not knowing them because knowing them means they're safe,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: absolutely not. It means about knowing or having an awareness
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: of what's their views on parenting, how do they parent,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: what's their views on supervision? Who's going to be in
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: the house. Are there a lot of adults coming and going?
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Is there perhaps an older sibling or older cousin who
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: lives in the house, or an older sibling who has
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: a lot of people coming over, because we know that
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: older adolescents are a risk in this area. Will they
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: be drinking? We know alcohol is very associated with sexual
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: abuse occurring, so you know, is their drinking, is there
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: a party? So it's knowing, you know, knowing and then
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: making an informed decision about whether or not that's a
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: risky situation or not. So that's supervision and monitoring. And
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: then the next one is access and assigning care wisely.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: So this is about making informed and deliberate decisions about
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: who has care giving roles or who has access. So
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: research shows that there are some situations that puts children
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: at more risk, and it's about parents knowing where the
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: risks lie and then making informed decisions about the children
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: the care of their children. The next one is family rules.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: So family rules about reducing ambiguity, creating structure, reducing opportunities
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: a risk. This helps children to know what's normal in
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: the family and what's allowed in the family. It helps
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: adults around your child to see that you are involved parent,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: that you have rules, and it also helps you to
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: see when someone is crossing those boundaries, which is the
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: fourth sea. So if you have family rules and boundaries
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: in place, and everyone who cares for your child knows
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: those rules and boundaries, then it makes it easier for
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: you to see when those have been crossed. And then
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: E stands for engagement and communication. And so if supervision
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: and monitoring is the cornerstone of safe, then engagement is
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: the foundation. So all rests on this positive, warm, loving,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: supportive relationships and environments around the children. So that's the
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: the engaged parenting.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Listening to these, Julia, it's one of those things where
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I do all this stuff with my kids,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and yet when I let them go somewhere, I still
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: might my heart is in my mouth. Had an incident
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: recently where my youngest was in the care of her
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: grandparents and they wanted her to be able to have
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: a sleepover with somebody who was known to the family.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: And we have no reason to think that there could
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: be any possibility that anything could go wrong. But I
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: was thinking to myself, I don't know this person. I mean,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: I know them, but I don't know them nearly well enough.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: I know how good my daughter's relationship with is with
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: their daughter, but oh, my goodness, heart and the mouth
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff like what making these choices is just
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: so hard consistently. I'm so grateful for the wisdom that
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: you've shared today. I think I'd love to ask you
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: one more question just as we wrap things up. Our
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: time is well and truly spent. Although I think based
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: on everything that you've shared, we could do this for
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: another couple of hours. We could turn this into like
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: a Lex Friedman Joe Rogan kind of thing. There's so
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: much to talk about here. The thing that's been on
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: my mind as I've listened to is just what's the
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: most important shift in thinking the parents need to make
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: to keep their kids safe here?
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Well, from all the research that we have available to
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: us and from my own research, we really need to
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: shift thinking to move away from how do I teach
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: my child to keep themselves safe? To how do I
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: actively create safe environments for my child. So really, I
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: think that's the biggest shift. So prevention is not about,
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: you know, preparing children to manage dangerous adults. It's about
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: adults creating the conditions that make children harder to access,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: harder to isolate, and surrounded by safe, engaged environments.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Doctor Julia Rudolph is a child sexual abuse prevention specialist
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: the founder of Protective Pathways. Julia, you do work all
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: over the country sharing workshops with organizations, in schools and
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: with adults about this. Is that correct?
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. So schools, shild cut centers, wherever adults are,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: wherever parents are, or anyone who works with kids. I'll
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: give sessions.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, I think that you should be doing more sessions.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: And hopefully people have heard this, especially school leaders, early
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: childcare center leaders and directors and so on, and people
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: running organizations, and hopefully they'll send the value and what
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: you can share. We will link to your details in
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: the show notes so that they can book you for events.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: You've been so generous and what you've shared. Really appreciate
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: you being on the podcast today.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roulant. From
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mim Hammonds provides our research, admin and other support,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: and if you'd like more info, visit happy families dot
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: com dot au