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Madeleine and Tina on post-launch feels and the value of taking creative breaks · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Madeleine: This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Tina: No matter what stage of writing you are at, we've got you covered.
• 0:19
  Tina: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:20
  Madeleine: And I'm Madeleine Cleary, and join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
• 0:25
  Tina: one deal at a time.
• 0:29
  Madeleine: The book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners, the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:46
  Tina: Good evening, Madeleine.
• 0:48
  Madeleine: Hi Tina.
• 0:50
  Madeleine: How are you going over there?
• 0:52
  Madeleine: Ah, I'm having a great night.
• 0:53
  Madeleine: It's Saturday night.
• 0:54
  Madeleine: We're, we're partying on the podcast tonight.
• 0:58
  Madeleine: Are we partying or are you Well, we're not gonna record on a Saturday night though.
• 1:03
  Madeleine: Do we met?
• 1:04
  Madeleine: Well, no.
• 1:04
  Tina: No.
• 1:05
  Tina: You know, and you know, sometimes on a Saturday night some people have plans.
• 1:08
  Tina: That's true.
• 1:09
  Tina: That's true.
• 1:10
  Tina: Some people are doing fun things.
• 1:12
  Tina: Like yourself.
• 1:13
  Tina: Some people are, are sitting at home in their pajamas and drinking kombucha like me.
• 1:18
  Madeleine: But you are, I mean, I love that you've prepared like, so just for context, it's seven o'clock on Saturday night as well, and Tina has prepped for bed.
• 1:27
  Madeleine: She's in her pajamas.
• 1:28
  Madeleine: She's just taken a big swig of her kombucha.
• 1:31
  Madeleine: Are you about, it's the gut health.
• 1:34
  Madeleine: Are you prepping for bed straight after this podcast?
• 1:37
  Tina: No.
• 1:40
  Tina: God, it is been set up.
• 1:41
  Tina: I almost don't wanna admit what my plans were for afterwards.
• 1:44
  Tina: Oh my gosh.
• 1:45
  Tina: Um, please tell me, uh, while I drink my wine.
• 1:49
  Tina: Well, last night, I, last night I finished my paint by numbers.
• 1:55
  Tina: Oh, you're getting into that fad.
• 1:57
  Tina: That's a thing at the moment, isn't it?
• 1:58
  Tina: I, well, I've been doing it for a little while.
• 2:00
  Tina: I actually bought some for me and my son to do together, which was really cute, and he did.
• 2:04
  Tina: Oh, oh, so you, you started the trend.
• 2:06
  Tina: I was to all me.
• 2:07
  Tina: Okay.
• 2:07
  Tina: You're ahead.
• 2:08
  Tina: It's totally me.
• 2:08
  Tina: Everyone heard that I was doing it and got on board.
• 2:10
  Tina: Is it good?
• 2:11
  Tina: You know what I.
• 2:14
  Tina: I'm total hyper focus though, so, um.
• 2:18
  Tina: I get really stuck into it.
• 2:20
  Tina: Mm.
• 2:20
  Tina: But you know, when I found it really helpful, and I'm sure it's not just paint by numbers.
• 2:23
  Tina: I'm sure, I'm sure there's lots of other things, like after this,'cause I've just finished, I was gonna get onto one of my cross stitches.
• 2:29
  Madeleine: Oh my God.
• 2:30
  Madeleine: Tina.
• 2:31
  Madeleine: Saturday night at Tina's
• 2:32
  Tina: place.
• 2:32
  Tina: It's
• 2:32
  Madeleine: getting
• 2:33
  Tina: wild.
• 2:34
  Tina: Like, but they are, they, it gets a really cool and funky ones.
• 2:39
  Tina: I'm gonna post it on my Instagram so everyone can see.
• 2:41
  Tina: They're cool.
• 2:42
  Tina: They're not daggy anymore.
• 2:44
  Tina: Really?
• 2:44
  Tina: Yeah.
• 2:45
  Tina: Yeah.
• 2:45
  Tina: Maybe a little bit.
• 2:46
  Tina: Um.
• 2:47
  Tina: But you know what?
• 2:48
  Tina: It's good.
• 2:48
  Tina: And may I think you need to do this, Madeleine, uh, what you need to do is, I think it's very important and especially in this period of time, Madeleine, so all debut authors that are listening who are going into this, you may be, you may be doing art and craft and things anyway, but it is so good as a switch off.
• 3:10
  Madeleine: Of your
• 3:11
  Tina: brain.
• 3:11
  Tina: And I actually find it super relaxing and you know, I, I actually put my headphones in and listen to and watch something at the same time.
• 3:19
  Tina: So I'm watching a show, like I really like Well, you're doing
• 3:20
  Madeleine: so many things at the same time.
• 3:22
  Madeleine: So you're doing paint by numbers or cross stitching plus watching tv.
• 3:26
  Madeleine: Yeah,
• 3:26
  Tina: at the same,
• 3:27
  Madeleine: at the same time.
• 3:27
  Madeleine: But I'm watching
• 3:28
  Tina: something that's you.
• 3:30
  Tina: Um, but it's not thinking about socials, it's not thinking about the next words that I'm gonna write.
• 3:34
  Tina: It's not thinking about That's true.
• 3:36
  Tina: You know, doing all that stuff.
• 3:37
  Tina: It really, it's still a switch off, like, you know, just watching brain numbing television and you don't have to do that, or some music or a podcast or an audio book.
• 3:45
  Tina: No, you are right.
• 3:45
  Madeleine: You're right.
• 3:46
  Madeleine: I think that's whilst the painting, it puts your focus, your focus on something that's not in your brain buzzing around in your brain.
• 3:53
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 3:53
  Madeleine: So I'm gonna show you something.
• 3:55
  Madeleine: That's literally in my office right now.
• 3:58
  Madeleine: Um, I agree.
• 3:59
  Madeleine: I have never done paint by numbers, but what I have done, and this I think is on theme with Saturday night, okay.
• 4:05
  Madeleine: Is the.
• 4:06
  Madeleine: Uh, Pinot and Picasso.
• 4:07
  Madeleine: Have you heard?
• 4:08
  Madeleine: Oh,
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: yes, yes.
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: So
• 4:10
  Madeleine: with my girlfriends, actually my friend who is over at the moment, um, we went and did this together, um, in this like really trendy place.
• 4:17
  Madeleine: We're the literally the oldest people at this play?
• 4:20
  Madeleine: No.
• 4:21
  Madeleine: Oh really?
• 4:21
  Madeleine: Oh, really?
• 4:23
  Madeleine: We're getting into it.
• 4:24
  Madeleine: Oh my gosh, yes.
• 4:25
  Madeleine: And we, um, had a dinner booking earlier and we probably left it.
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: Mm,
• 4:30
  Madeleine: we were pushing time and so we rocked up late to this pinot and Picasso and all these really trendy young people in inner city.
• 4:37
  Madeleine: Melbourne had already like, set up, like they were full on into it, and then we'd had a few wines and so we walked in like stumbling in like laughing, like causing, not taking it very seriously, clearly not taking it seriously.
• 4:50
  Madeleine: But, oh my gosh, I, I was in that period.
• 4:53
  Madeleine: I think it, it was just before Butterfly Women came out.
• 4:55
  Madeleine: So I was, you know, your brain gets full of like buzzing kind of things and it's hard to switch off and focus, but I think there's something to do with painting.
• 5:03
  Madeleine: So let me, I can show you the painting that I did, please.
• 5:05
  Madeleine: It's right in my office.
• 5:06
  Madeleine: Wonder.
• 5:08
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 5:10
  Tina: And I'll, we can pop this up.
• 5:11
  Tina: Oh, it's, oh my God.
• 5:14
  Tina: So did you, okay everyone, I'm gonna explain, I'm looking at the cutest butterfly that Madeleine has painted this way, and it's like blue and purple and pink, and it says like a butterfly.
• 5:24
  Tina: Her wings unfolded.
• 5:25
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 5:26
  Madeleine: Oh my God.
• 5:26
  Madeleine: Did everyone draw the butterfly or did you.
• 5:29
  Madeleine: No, you could say the shoes.
• 5:30
  Madeleine: Well, they had, um, uh, like some standard ones that they wanted everyone to draw.
• 5:35
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 5:35
  Madeleine: And, but my friends and I, we were like, no, we wanna do what we wanna do.
• 5:40
  Madeleine: And my friends had prepped, they're like a type women.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:43
  Madeleine: So they had actually gone onto Pinterest and found what they wanted to paint.
• 5:47
  Madeleine: Oh.
• 5:47
  Madeleine: And I had not done my research.
• 5:48
  Madeleine: I didn't know this was a thing, so I had no idea what to do.
• 5:51
  Madeleine: So they, my friends.
• 5:52
  Madeleine: Went and found like a butterfly thing, the word.
• 5:56
  Madeleine: So they, they organized me.
• 5:58
  Madeleine: Isn't it nice when you've got friends that just organize you and that's It is definitely handy at times.
• 6:03
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 6:04
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 6:04
  Madeleine: So that friend is actually here right now and we didn't expect that she would stay.
• 6:08
  Madeleine: So we've had a few wines.
• 6:09
  Madeleine: So I thought, well, why not jump onto the podcast now?
• 6:12
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 6:12
  Madeleine: I love it.
• 6:13
  Madeleine: Have a good time.
• 6:14
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 6:15
  Madeleine: Next time I'll have to join you.
• 6:17
  Madeleine: It sound
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: very boring
• 6:18
  Madeleine: with Natasha as well.
• 6:20
  Madeleine: Yes, please.
• 6:21
  Madeleine: Oh, that'd be so cool.
• 6:23
  Madeleine: So painting.
• 6:24
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 6:24
  Madeleine: I'm gonna have to get into this paint painting, or I think anything crafty.
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: Mm.
• 6:28
  Tina: Somethings I'm
• 6:29
  Madeleine: not very
• 6:29
  Tina: crafty though, nor am I creative in a different way, way that I'm not, but nor am I, and that's why, see, I wish I could just paint the thing, like my mom is an actual artist and she keeps, like, she'll walk past me and go, oh, you know, you just maybe try this.
• 6:42
  Tina: Brush or maybe try this color, or maybe you should, and I'm like, mom, no, just, I'm just painting in the lines.
• 6:48
  Tina: Hang on, Tina.
• 6:49
  Tina: Our moms are both artists.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: Ah.
• 6:51
  Tina: Wow.
• 6:52
  Tina: And you, are you arty?
• 6:54
  Tina: No.
• 6:55
  Tina: Oh, I'm, I'm a terrible artist, but we're, we're just still creative, but with words,
• 7:00
  Madeleine: but with words.
• 7:01
  Madeleine: I've never been creative with other things.
• 7:03
  Madeleine: Mm-hmm.
• 7:03
  Madeleine: Have you?
• 7:03
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 7:04
  Madeleine: I'm terrible.
• 7:05
  Tina: No.
• 7:05
  Tina: My
• 7:05
  Madeleine: mom, she's a beautiful artist.
• 7:07
  Madeleine: She, I've got lots of her like paintings around our house.
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: And
• 7:11
  Madeleine: I've just never had that skill.
• 7:12
  Madeleine: And it's funny, isn't it, that you gravitate towards something.
• 7:16
  Madeleine: She's always been very crafty and I think actually she would be a good writer as well.
• 7:20
  Madeleine: So mom listens to all that podcast, so I'm so sure she's listening to that.
• 7:23
  Madeleine: My mom.
• 7:24
  Madeleine: Hey Julie.
• 7:27
  Tina: Um, yeah.
• 7:28
  Tina: Well that's interesting.
• 7:29
  Tina: Well, it's certainly like the creative gene, right?
• 7:31
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 7:31
  Tina: And we just use words instead of That's right.
• 7:34
  Tina: Ah.
• 7:34
  Tina: But I would love to be able to do it.
• 7:36
  Tina: Um.
• 7:38
  Tina: But I can't So pay by numbers.
• 7:39
  Tina: It is pay by numbers.
• 7:39
  Tina: It looks really good at the end.
• 7:41
  Tina: You just gotta get a good one.
• 7:42
  Madeleine: And the other thing I found as well is like, I think listening to music, like taking some time out, going to a performance or recital,'cause then you're forced to just spend two hours just listening.
• 7:54
  Madeleine: And I think that's a nice way to decompress as well.
• 7:57
  Madeleine: And yeah, decompression is something that I need to be thinking about.
• 8:00
  Madeleine: I think now five and a half weeks, almost six weeks actually since the pop.
• 8:04
  Madeleine: Butterfly Women's being published.
• 8:06
  Madeleine: So it's now time to rejuvenate and refresh.
• 8:09
  Tina: I think you should just give it a go.
• 8:12
  Tina: Go on.
• 8:12
  Tina: I'll, I'll send you a link to some cool paper by numbers that I just saw.
• 8:15
  Tina: But we didn't, we, we didn't come on to talk paper by numbers.
• 8:20
  Tina: We had a few things we wanted to chat about, but, um, first let's do a little bit of an update, Madeleine,'cause it has been an exciting time.
• 8:27
  Tina: Um, what's been happening for you in the last.
• 8:29
  Tina: Or so, or a couple of weeks since we chatted last?
• 8:32
  Madeleine: Oh, it, uh, it's been an interesting time actually because it's been the first, or last week was the first week I had where I didn't have an event or a podcast since the Butterfly women launched.
• 8:44
  Madeleine: So that, um, it, it, it felt strange actually to just.
• 8:49
  Madeleine: Uh, go back to like normal life.
• 8:51
  Madeleine: And so I think trying to work out how to adjust back to normality is something I had to sort of think about and learn.
• 8:57
  Madeleine: Um, and I probably spent a day going, oh my gosh, this is it.
• 9:02
  Madeleine: Like it's done now I need to start thinking about the next thing.
• 9:06
  Madeleine: And that sort of took me into a bit of a head spin, but I think I've come out of it like pretty excited about what's next as well.
• 9:13
  Madeleine: And, and I've still got like lots of interesting and fun things to look forward to.
• 9:18
  Madeleine: Like I'm, um, going to the Williamstown, to the Willie Lit Festival.
• 9:22
  Madeleine: In Williamstown in a couple of weeks.
• 9:24
  Madeleine: Um, and I'm doing this really cool event with Anne Freeman.
• 9:28
  Madeleine: Do you know, do you know Anne?
• 9:29
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 9:29
  Madeleine: Um, at El and Bookshop.
• 9:31
  Madeleine: So we're talking.
• 9:32
  Madeleine: So her book, um, me that you see is all about the digital age of, um.
• 9:37
  Madeleine: Sort of, you know, like only fans.
• 9:39
  Madeleine: And, um, it's this really cool book.
• 9:41
  Madeleine: It's amazing.
• 9:43
  Madeleine: That's, and so we're talking about Flash brothel.
• 9:44
  Madeleine: Flash brothels in 19th century and the digital age.
• 9:47
  Madeleine: So at, can you
• 9:48
  Tina: tell us what a flash brothel is?
• 9:50
  Madeleine: Oh, yeah.
• 9:51
  Madeleine: So that's
• 9:51
  Tina: like a, I have an image in my mind, but, well, what do you think?
• 9:54
  Tina: What's your image?
• 9:56
  Tina: To me, a flash brothel sounds like almost like a popup.
• 10:01
  Madeleine: I mean, it's, it's actually in the 19th century.
• 10:04
  Madeleine: It was de de describe a very high class brothel.
• 10:08
  Madeleine: Oh, like a flashy brothel?
• 10:10
  Madeleine: Flashy brothel flash.
• 10:11
  Madeleine: I was like, it's like a flash, like a popup store.
• 10:16
  Madeleine: So like a, yeah, it's a very high class brothel, like Madam Brussels s in Melbourne.
• 10:21
  Madeleine: So that was the, the, the way they described them.
• 10:24
  Madeleine: So lots of things still look to look forward to, but um, I did some really beautiful events in the last couple of weeks in regional Victoria.
• 10:32
  Madeleine: Um, so one in Mansfield at Ink Bookshop, and I don't know, we didn't know what we were expecting, I think.
• 10:39
  Madeleine: And it's, it's about a two hour drive to Mansfield and we were driving the dark in the rain and.
• 10:44
  Madeleine: My husband, he's like, what if only five people like show up because you know, it could be really awkward.
• 10:51
  Madeleine: And we got there and like there was like 40 people and it was like a sellout.
• 10:55
  Madeleine: It was this beautiful warm event.
• 10:58
  Madeleine: Charlotte who owns the bookshop is amazing.
• 11:00
  Madeleine: So we had a great time.
• 11:01
  Madeleine: And then, um, we went the next night to Menen, which is in Gippsland again, another like two hour drive.
• 11:09
  Madeleine: I was in conversation with Mark Za Russell, who's a friend of the podcast.
• 11:12
  Madeleine: And again, I.
• 11:14
  Madeleine: So warm, incredible community down there.
• 11:17
  Madeleine: Um, and I had this incredible, amazing experience where the last person who was in the signing line, um, and it was, this was pretty much my, like, one of my last events.
• 11:29
  Madeleine: Um, so it felt like a, a bit of a final moment.
• 11:32
  Madeleine: Like I was going back to work the next day.
• 11:34
  Madeleine: Um, and it was like the last moment.
• 11:36
  Madeleine: And she just said to me, she's like, oh, your book changed my whole perspective on my life.
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 11:43
  Madeleine: And um, mark was sitting next to me and Mark was just like, I could feel, hear his grin and feel his grin next to me.
• 11:51
  Madeleine: And she just said like, um, you know, that she comes from this like background where she's from a poorer background.
• 11:58
  Madeleine: She became a partner in a law firm.
• 12:01
  Madeleine: Um, she.
• 12:03
  Madeleine: And when she was reading the book, she realized, she was like, this would've been my life 150, 160 years ago.
• 12:09
  Madeleine: And it made her feel really grateful for all the opportunities that she's had in her life.
• 12:14
  Madeleine: And that's something that when you write Tina, you don't expect to have that response.
• 12:20
  Madeleine: You just write a story that you think people, hopefully you hope that people like.
• 12:25
  Madeleine: But when you get a moment like that, it makes everything worthwhile, the driving in the dark, in the rain, all that kind of stuff.
• 12:31
  Madeleine: So absolutely.
• 12:31
  Madeleine: That's incredible.
• 12:33
  Tina: And I feel like I've, I've really been, these last few weeks I've really been appreciating those opportunities and those moments.
• 12:41
  Tina: And even in a way like, you know, the, we write because we love it.
• 12:47
  Tina: Yeah.
• 12:47
  Tina: Um, you know, when it comes to being a published author, then they.
• 12:51
  Tina: That's when all the things like sales and people buying books and isn't making money and all that sort of thing.
• 12:57
  Tina: And, you know, you don't get paid a lot for your books in this industry.
• 13:01
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 13:02
  Tina: But I was even just thinking the other day, if all, if all I get out of it is these incredible, um, opportunities and adventures that I didn't normally or wouldn't have had, um, I think that's.
• 13:16
  Tina: That's worth it to me.
• 13:17
  Tina: Yes.
• 13:18
  Tina: And
• 13:18
  Madeleine: even, not even like the opportunities to do these things, but the moments, those just small moments in your life, which only last 30 seconds, but you know, that will stay with you
• 13:31
  Tina: forever because you can't put a price on that feeling, can you?
• 13:34
  Tina: And that moment that you had, yeah.
• 13:37
  Tina: Have you had that?
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: Um,
• 13:39
  Tina: but I can't say that anyone's come to me and said that Walter Zoo has changed their life.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: It's different, you know, children, it's, it's kids.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Um, but, you know,
• 13:49
  Madeleine: and, and they're, they're really cute and very generous with their Have you had a moment though that's felt very much like, I'm, I just wanna enjoy this right now.
• 13:58
  Madeleine: There's a, there's that feeling that I think will carry me through this.
• 14:02
  Madeleine: Mm-hmm.
• 14:03
  Tina: Yeah.
• 14:03
  Tina: I think there's.
• 14:04
  Tina: There's probably been a few.
• 14:06
  Tina: And I think, um, you know, so I, I have book two Neeka in the storm coming out like next month.
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: I'm so
• 14:14
  Madeleine: excited.
• 14:14
  Madeleine: And it's so, and I'm, um, you haven't asked me for a blurb quote, by the way.
• 14:18
  Madeleine: I'm very pissed off about that.
• 14:20
  Madeleine: I dunno,
• 14:21
  Tina: I'm not sure if your genre kind of gels well with mine.
• 14:26
  Tina: I mean, well it just, like, I would definitely give one.
• 14:33
  Tina: Um, yeah, but I, um, yeah, so it's, so I'm actually planning for promo of book, um, of book two of Neeka in the Storm and, um, organizing all my events events.
• 14:46
  Tina: And we're actually going to Melbourne, to Melbourne Zoo, um, to have a book launched down there, which I know you're gonna be at.
• 14:52
  Tina: What date is it?
• 14:54
  Tina: It's the 31st of August.
• 14:57
  Madeleine: Okay, let me just pop
• 14:58
  Tina: that in my calendar, if you've even told me the
• 15:00
  Madeleine: date.
• 15:01
  Tina: No, I'll, I've only just, I've only just, um, locked it
• 15:03
  Madeleine: in and
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: so I'll do Okay.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: You know what?
• 15:05
  Madeleine: You're very lucky.
• 15:08
  Madeleine: I literally come back from Queensland the day before, so.
• 15:11
  Madeleine: I'm so, so glad.
• 15:12
  Madeleine: Good.
• 15:14
  Tina: I'll be actually be in conversation with our friend Katherine Collette, so she's gonna be there.
• 15:19
  Tina: Another friend of
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: the podcast, another friend
• 15:21
  Tina: of the podcast.
• 15:21
  Tina: Oh my gosh, amazing.
• 15:22
  Tina: It's just super fun.
• 15:23
  Tina: It's just gonna be super fun.
• 15:24
  Tina: There's gonna be lots of animal themed games and activities and, um.
• 15:29
  Tina: Is there a link out now?
• 15:30
  Tina: Not yet, no.
• 15:31
  Tina: I'll be doing it next week.
• 15:31
  Tina: Okay.
• 15:31
  Tina: So both my, everyone hears this.
• 15:34
  Tina: It should probably be up and you can just find it on my website or on Insta.
• 15:38
  Tina: Um, but even that, you know, going down to Melbourne and going with the family and spending some time down there, you know, we're gonna stay in a hotel, we're gonna stay in the city, we're gonna do all these sorts of fun things.
• 15:48
  Tina: I'm like, you know what if, if even just having these fun little adventures is all that I get from, you know, as in like.
• 15:58
  Tina: We're all talk about money and how much money we make, but those adventures and um, is, is a pretty good payoff, I think for, it's pretty cool, isn't it?
• 16:08
  Tina: Yeah.
• 16:08
  Tina: It's, it's pretty cool what, what we get to do.
• 16:11
  Tina: Yeah.
• 16:11
  Tina: Yes.
• 16:12
  Tina: Yeah.
• 16:12
  Tina: Also get to talk, feel to school for book week, which is pretty incredible, you know, and the kids are just like, that's,
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: that's my mom coming and talking at,
• 16:19
  Tina: at, um, book week.
• 16:20
  Tina: Like that's a moment as well.
• 16:22
  Tina: So I'm sure.
• 16:24
  Tina: Um.
• 16:26
  Tina: Will be a lasting memory memory for them as well.
• 16:28
  Tina: So all of that is just, yeah, a really incredible experience
• 16:33
  Madeleine: that That's amazing.
• 16:33
  Madeleine: But I feel though as well, this is not gonna be the end for you in all your future author career moments, nor you Madeleine have many, many incredible moments.
• 16:44
  Madeleine: It's the long game, right?
• 16:45
  Madeleine: That's what we do for, that's what we tell ourselves.
• 16:48
  Madeleine: That's right.
• 16:48
  Madeleine: I was actually talking with someone yesterday about.
• 16:51
  Madeleine: What it's like being a debut author and you do put a lot of time and investment into social media and, and your own personal expense, like coming, flying down to Melbourne as an example for your book launch, and you put in a lot of this time and investment.
• 17:10
  Madeleine: I think you have to see this as part of your business, isn't it?
• 17:13
  Madeleine: If you were a small business owner and starting up your business, you wouldn't expect to make any returns in your first few years.
• 17:19
  Madeleine: 'cause you're That's exactly
• 17:20
  Tina: right.
• 17:20
  Tina: Yeah.
• 17:21
  Tina: You don't And that's, that's business.
• 17:23
  Tina: And it is true.
• 17:23
  Tina: If that is your business and it's your job, you do a lot of stuff for free.
• 17:27
  Tina: You put a lot, a lot out there for free as well to, you know, build trust and faith and get people to know you and your brand.
• 17:35
  Tina: Yes.
• 17:35
  Tina: And then invest in you
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: in the
• 17:36
  Tina: long.
• 17:37
  Tina: Term and become, you know, a long term reader and, uh, yeah.
• 17:40
  Tina: So it certainly, yeah, is just, it's, I think that's a really good way to look at it and especially for debut authors who are, who are yes, waiting for the money to come in.
• 17:50
  Tina: Um, if you look at it like it is a business and you invest everything you've got into it and all your time, and eventually it will.
• 17:58
  Tina: If you run your business well, it'll,
• 18:00
  Madeleine: it'll come to you.
• 18:00
  Madeleine: I'm, I'm sure.
• 18:01
  Madeleine: Exactly.
• 18:02
  Madeleine: And, and you know, I think, well, we've spoken to so many authors about how they, they might not be a success and, and I guess success is defined by people differently, but a bestselling, a bestseller on their debut and.
• 18:19
  Madeleine: That doesn't mean that's the end of your career if you don't sell.
• 18:22
  Madeleine: Well, you, you, you, you know, you could become a breakout on your third, your fourth, your
• 18:27
  Tina: fifth book.
• 18:27
  Tina: Oh, you hear it all the time, don't you?
• 18:29
  Tina: Yes.
• 18:29
  Tina: Someone's, uh, a number one with this smash hit and then you find out they've got this.
• 18:33
  Tina: Back catalog exactly that no
• 18:35
  Madeleine: one knew about until now.
• 18:37
  Madeleine: Um, oh, Shane Currie Chandrin as well, like Natasha interviewed.
• 18:40
  Madeleine: Um, and that was an amazing interview and that shows, you know, miles Franklin award-winning author that had been a bestseller even before winning that award.
• 18:48
  Madeleine: And that was her third book, I think, at that time.
• 18:51
  Madeleine: So, um, and now people are picking up her back lists.
• 18:55
  Madeleine: So yeah, it does show that, I think too, as an emerging writer, before even being published.
• 19:02
  Madeleine: Taking that time to invest in doing courses, in turning up to even just book launches and events.
• 19:09
  Madeleine: Um, being part of the community, having a social media presence, building a network, like that's all time investment away from writing, right?
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: Mm.
• 19:19
  Madeleine: But I don't think that's, that, that also is time spent building your reputation and your business.
• 19:25
  Madeleine: And it shouldn't be something that you disregard as wasted time.
• 19:30
  Tina: No, and it's all learning too.
• 19:32
  Tina: I find that really important.
• 19:33
  Tina: I think it would be terribly hard to, uh, have a book launch or do the social media author stuff.
• 19:41
  Tina: Um, if you had never been to one and you had never followed any other authors or communicated with any other authors or just, you know, learn from them just through networking and communications and making those contacts, um, what the author.
• 19:56
  Tina: Life is like.
• 19:57
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 19:58
  Madeleine: Exactly.
• 19:58
  Madeleine: Do you think?
• 19:59
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 19:59
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 19:59
  Madeleine: I agree.
• 20:06
  Olivia O'Flynn: Hello, this is Olivia O'Flynn and my debut Romantasy Ever Blessed is Out now with Harper Voyager, which is an imprint of the Harper Collins publishers.
• 20:16
  Olivia O'Flynn: Um, it is where love, mythology and magic collide, and it includes some of the genre's most beloved tropes, such as Slow Burn Enemies to Lovers, we have Warriors Witches fated Love Failing Magic in heaps of queer representation as well.
• 20:33
  Olivia O'Flynn: We follow the journey of Elva, who is a warrior princess, forced into an arranged marriage.
• 20:38
  Olivia O'Flynn: And Anez, who is a hunted witch across the story as they try to navigate their new normals and save the lands that is being ravaged by a blight.
• 20:50
  Olivia O'Flynn: So if this sounds up your alley, please check out.
• 20:53
  Olivia O'Flynn: Ever blessed.
• 20:53
  Olivia O'Flynn: I'm so proud of the book and what it has become.
• 20:57
  Olivia O'Flynn: And if you like ramantasy, if you like even just fantasy.
• 21:02
  Olivia O'Flynn: See with heaps of world building and maybe a little bit of spice, then I think this book is up Your Alley Ever Blessed is out now.
• 21:13
  Madeleine: Now, Tina, your updates, what have you, you've probably been prepping for Neeka in the storm, I'm guessing?
• 21:19
  Madeleine: I have.
• 21:20
  Madeleine: And um, yes.
• 21:21
  Madeleine: I talk
• 21:21
  Tina: about sort of taking away from riding time.
• 21:24
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 21:25
  Tina: Um, but it's fun.
• 21:26
  Tina: It's so fun'cause I'm making, um.
• 21:28
  Tina: Uh, I've got, so I've got some library visits coming up for Gold Coast Library in the school holidays.
• 21:33
  Tina: I'll also be doing a workshop for kids at where the wild things are in their school holidays as well.
• 21:38
  Tina: And Quick Brown Fox.
• 21:39
  Tina: I'm doing a really cool workshop there as well.
• 21:41
  Tina: Um, so I've got a few things on.
• 21:45
  Tina: Um, but, so I'm just kind of.
• 21:47
  Tina: Prepping for the workshops, which has been so fun because I just have this like endless like list of ideas.
• 21:52
  Tina: 'cause when it comes to kids and animals and doing like fun little vet exams and stuff, I'm doing all that, including all of that and, um, and games and just, yeah.
• 22:01
  Tina: Anyway, if anyone can get along to any of them, um, they, I will list them all of my Instagram next week, but they, um.
• 22:09
  Tina: Yeah, it's gonna be fun.
• 22:10
  Tina: That's so cool.
• 22:11
  Tina: That sounds
• 22:12
  Madeleine: so much fun.
• 22:12
  Madeleine: It's so fun.
• 22:13
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 22:14
  Madeleine: Um, and coincide with the school holidays, I'm guessing as well.
• 22:16
  Tina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:18
  Tina: Which is handy.
• 22:18
  Tina: Um, but they do take up a lot of time.
• 22:22
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 22:22
  Tina: But I feel like, you know, once I, I've given myself a deadline of maybe till Monday for next couple, another couple of days, and then I'm going to, uh, get back into, um, yeah, the last manuscript that I'm writing, I'm gonna give it another, just a big polish and then.
• 22:39
  Tina: Is this the, uh, third book
• 22:40
  Madeleine: in the Neeka one?
• 22:41
  Madeleine: No, that one is.
• 22:43
  Madeleine: Basically done.
• 22:44
  Madeleine: I just, I'm just waiting on edits to come back and give it another read through.
• 22:48
  Madeleine: And what's the title of that one?
• 22:49
  Madeleine: Something completely different.
• 22:51
  Madeleine: Um, that one's called, uh, Neeka and the Great Search and Cool, cool.
• 22:55
  Tina: Yeah, it's, there's in the back of Neeka in the Storm.
• 22:57
  Tina: It's got a little, the blurb for it, so, um, that'll be exciting too.
• 23:01
  Tina: So many more Neeka adventures to come.
• 23:04
  Tina: I love that.
• 23:04
  Tina: But that's, um, that's sort of been my.
• 23:06
  Tina: Update, um, yeah, just kind of working on that and
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: mm-hmm.
• 23:10
  Tina: And, um, a little bit of writing,
• 23:13
  Madeleine: uh, but we, oh wait.
• 23:15
  Madeleine: You need to talk about what the news that both you and Natasha received last week as well, and then my massive fomo.
• 23:22
  Tina: So yes, we do have some really super fun.
• 23:25
  Tina: Exciting news and it's, and it's just, and it's actually funny as well,
• 23:29
  Madeleine: but it's very funny.
• 23:30
  Madeleine: Oh, so I'm so, so incredibly jealous and endless and got all the FOMO vibes.
• 23:37
  Madeleine: Oh my God.
• 23:38
  Madeleine: I can't see.
• 23:39
  Madeleine: You should have entered and you
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: could have been coming to, oh,
• 23:41
  Tina: well, so I got the very exciting news last week that I was, long listed or no shortlisted actually for the writers on the Reef Residency, which is run by James Cook University, and it's based on magnetic island.
• 23:59
  Tina: And uh, so you have to enter and you have to say, you know, the, what you're working on, it has to fill particular criteria.
• 24:06
  Tina: Um, so it's the Roderick Center.
• 24:08
  Tina: James Cook University writers on the Reef residency.
• 24:11
  Tina: And um,
• 24:13
  Madeleine: so basically you're on
• 24:14
  Tina: an island, you're basically Queensland on an island for like seven nights.
• 24:19
  Tina: Just working.
• 24:20
  Tina: It's writing time, it's working on your, on your manuscript.
• 24:24
  Tina: So that was super exciting and I, I couldn't believe it when I saw that Natasha Ry our, one of our co-hosts here on the book deal, had actually shortlisted as well.
• 24:35
  Tina: So we're messaging back and forth like, oh my God, this is hilarious.
• 24:40
  Tina: And then we found out that we actually both got.
• 24:43
  Tina: The residency as well.
• 24:44
  Tina: So we are both gonna be on magnetic island for a week in August, doing nothing but writing.
• 24:50
  Tina: And Madeleine is.
• 24:51
  Tina: Very upset that she's not gonna be there with us.
• 24:55
  Madeleine: I mean, okay, so I am thrilled for the both of you, but when I heard that you both are going to be together on this beautiful island for a whole week, I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna get replaced.
• 25:10
  Madeleine: Like, that's it.
• 25:10
  Madeleine: What's the chances we may not come back?
• 25:13
  Tina: Um, its just a tropical island in Queensland, just
• 25:17
  Madeleine: a tropical island in Queensland and a resort, right?
• 25:22
  Madeleine: It's gonna be, it's a private house.
• 25:25
  Madeleine: Is there a pool?
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: Oh,
• 25:28
  Madeleine: is it beach front?
• 25:29
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 25:30
  Madeleine: Oh, there's literally beach front.
• 25:32
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 25:32
  Madeleine: And food is at all included?
• 25:34
  Tina: Yeah.
• 25:34
  Tina: Oh, it's all, well, we just have to turn up and write and I have to say, um, so it's hilarious.
• 25:41
  Tina: So.
• 25:41
  Tina: It's hilarious and it's gonna be amazing.
• 25:43
  Tina: And honestly, just, I'm gonna get some writing done, my friend.
• 25:46
  Tina: I cannot wait.
• 25:47
  Tina: I bet,
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: I bet.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: Uh,
• 25:49
  Tina: but yeah, I couldn't believe it when we both got on.
• 25:50
  Tina: We are going to record a podcast episode while we're there.
• 25:55
  Tina: It's gonna be Island Edition.
• 25:57
  Madeleine: Oh.
• 25:58
  Madeleine: I join from Zoom.
• 26:03
  Madeleine: No, no, no, no.
• 26:04
  Madeleine: We'll be on the beach.
• 26:04
  Madeleine: You guys, you enjoy your bloody magnetic island experience and I'm just gonna be in freezing Melbourne in August.
• 26:12
  Madeleine: Just hating life.
• 26:14
  Madeleine: Okay, we'll, we'll try not to send you too many photos.
• 26:16
  Madeleine: Please don't.
• 26:17
  Madeleine: Okay?
• 26:17
  Madeleine: Please don't.
• 26:19
  Madeleine: Please do send me all the photos.
• 26:21
  Madeleine: I wanna be included.
• 26:23
  Tina: But you know what I have to say, I, um, you know what was on my vision board?
• 26:30
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 26:30
  Madeleine: Can we talk about vision boards?
• 26:31
  Madeleine: Do you have one in your office?
• 26:33
  Tina: You know what, I haven't even finished it yet, but that thus is the power of the vision board.
• 26:39
  Tina: Okay.
• 26:39
  Tina: And I think I mentioned it recently, we've been talking jokingly about manifesting and stuff, right?
• 26:45
  Tina: Yes.
• 26:45
  Tina: But.
• 26:45
  Tina: I did mention I've, I have recorded an interview with Jane Tara, who is all over the manifesting all over the Vision Morning.
• 26:52
  Tina: I'm so excited for this one, that episode.
• 26:53
  Tina: Me too.
• 26:54
  Tina: Me too.
• 26:54
  Tina: I can't wait.
• 26:55
  Tina: Geez.
• 26:55
  Tina: We've been so busy with the podcast and so many incredible guests, so it's, it's coming.
• 26:58
  Tina: I think it might even be the following week.
• 27:00
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 27:00
  Tina: After this ep, which.
• 27:02
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 27:03
  Tina: The following week, the following up after this one.
• 27:06
  Tina: Um, and after I chatted with her and after I read a bit more about it from some of the recommendations that she had, I was like, yeah, I love this vision boarding thing.
• 27:14
  Tina: If anything, it's a plan and it's just like, know where you want to go.
• 27:18
  Tina: And I, um, most certainly had a picture on there of a tropical island in Queensland.
• 27:25
  Tina: No, was I keep.
• 27:27
  Tina: I, um, just have always wanted to just take myself off to an island and write mm-hmm.
• 27:33
  Tina: For a week.
• 27:34
  Tina: So, and look, now it's happened.
• 27:37
  Tina: Oh my God.
• 27:38
  Tina: Three things have happened on my vision board so far, and like I said, I haven't finished it still.
• 27:42
  Tina: I'm doing it in Canva and I've been taking some time coming back and doing it.
• 27:46
  Tina: And three things have happened so far.
• 27:48
  Madeleine: Oh my God.
• 27:49
  Madeleine: Quit like six figure multi-book deal on that, that one, that one.
• 27:56
  Madeleine: What's with there?
• 27:58
  Madeleine: God, Neeka, Neeka could be perfect.
• 28:00
  Madeleine: Mini series.
• 28:01
  Madeleine: My God.
• 28:02
  Madeleine: Do it.
• 28:02
  Madeleine: Do it, do
• 28:03
  Tina: it.
• 28:03
  Tina: Do it.
• 28:03
  Tina: Get time.
• 28:04
  Tina: Give it
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: time
• 28:04
  Tina: though.
• 28:04
  Tina: And those ones need a little bit of time, but you know, so far it's some pretty good odds.
• 28:09
  Tina: I have to say.
• 28:10
  Tina: I, I plan on getting everything on my vision board by the end of the year.
• 28:13
  Madeleine: Do I get a print it and put it somewhere?
• 28:15
  Madeleine: I am.
• 28:15
  Tina: Yeah.
• 28:16
  Tina: I will.
• 28:16
  Tina: Yes.
• 28:16
  Tina: I'm gonna frame it.
• 28:17
  Tina: I'm gonna put it beside my bed.
• 28:18
  Tina: So I look at it every night before I go to sleep and I look at it in the morning.
• 28:21
  Madeleine: Did um, just my memory is triggering.
• 28:24
  Madeleine: Do you have something on the back of your toilet door?
• 28:27
  Madeleine: Oh, who was I talking to?
• 28:29
  Madeleine: They've got like a, like vision board on the back of their toilet door.
• 28:33
  Madeleine: Heard.
• 28:33
  Madeleine: That's a good
• 28:34
  Tina: spot to put
• 28:34
  Madeleine: it.
• 28:35
  Madeleine: Because you do visit it several times a day.
• 28:38
  Madeleine: Plenty of times.
• 28:39
  Madeleine: You spend a bit of time there.
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 28:40
  Madeleine: I mean, we, the book deal podcast, we're not, we haven't done an episode unless we talk about Pooh, so,
• 28:47
  Tina: I'm sorry.
• 28:47
  Tina: I think most of that's my fault.
• 28:49
  Tina: It's my, it's my zookeeper background.
• 28:52
  Tina: We always conversation.
• 28:53
  Tina: It's.
• 28:54
  Tina: Turns into poo.
• 28:55
  Tina: I was gonna mention it before when I was talking about my workshops, but I thought, no, no.
• 28:59
  Madeleine: And then you
• 28:59
  Tina: brought it, you won't descend, then you, then you did.
• 29:01
  Tina: That's good.
• 29:02
  Tina: Good, good, good.
• 29:03
  Tina: Um, no, I don't, but they do say put it somewhere where you can keep.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 29:07
  Tina: But if you wanna keep it private so other people.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: That's
• 29:11
  Tina: too, but my mine's still on, on cam.
• 29:13
  Tina: I've still got a couple of spots to fill that I'm thinking about.
• 29:16
  Tina: So will you share it with me?
• 29:17
  Madeleine: Mm-hmm.
• 29:18
  Tina: When I finish it, I will.
• 29:19
  Tina: And you wait.
• 29:19
  Tina: You'll listen to Jane's episode and you'll be totally making your own.
• 29:23
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 29:24
  Madeleine: I don't know what to put on there.
• 29:26
  Tina: It's, that's okay.
• 29:27
  Tina: But I'll think about it.
• 29:28
  Tina: Mm.
• 29:28
  Madeleine: And
• 29:29
  Tina: it, and I think, and one of the parts of the conversation was that I think you surprise yourself with, with what you do put on there.
• 29:35
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 29:35
  Tina: Because I put some of the really obvious things for authors, like making all this money and like being top of this chart and all that sort of thing.
• 29:43
  Tina: And I was like, actually
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: that doesn't, mm, that doesn't, that's not really it.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: Did you, that joy in the No,
• 29:48
  Tina: it's the, um, it's probably the more.
• 29:53
  Tina: How do I get the ti the time?
• 29:55
  Tina: What's more fulfilling?
• 29:56
  Tina: And it's having time to write.
• 29:58
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 29:58
  Tina: Having time for family, and that doesn't actually need to be the number one.
• 30:02
  Tina: Like if I'm, if I'm being signed up for books and I'm making more books and I'm writing more stories, it doesn't actually need to be like the top of the charts.
• 30:11
  Tina: It just needs to be enough.
• 30:14
  Tina: Oh, Tina, but you profit If it was a six figure deal, I also wouldn't say no to that.
• 30:19
  Madeleine: Yeah, you're like, actually Harper Collins, I'm happy right now just making a book.
• 30:24
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 30:25
  Tina: Look, I, and I think that I've had a pretty good start and I've been incredibly Yes.
• 30:33
  Madeleine: That has to be your top tip, right, for today.
• 30:36
  Madeleine: Like having, just having and crafting time, I think for doing what you love.
• 30:44
  Madeleine: It's really, really important, isn't it?
• 30:46
  Madeleine: And you do that by waking up at four 30 and doing all sorts of crazy, crazy things.
• 30:51
  Madeleine: But I think also having a life outside of writing is important.
• 30:55
  Madeleine: So when you're talking about spending time with family, and you know, that's probably something I've neglected in the last five to six weeks, is my friends and my family and my life are outside of writing.
• 31:07
  Madeleine: And I think that's okay because.
• 31:09
  Madeleine: It's been a busy period.
• 31:11
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 31:11
  Madeleine: But that's why you know, my friends here now and after this we're gonna have some dinner together and talk.
• 31:17
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 31:18
  Madeleine: It's nice to be able to do things that take you out of that head space for a bit.
• 31:24
  Madeleine: And I think that's important as well.
• 31:26
  Madeleine: 'cause that's what life's all about, isn't it?
• 31:27
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 31:27
  Madeleine: Not just buried it in your laptop.
• 31:29
  Tina: No, I know, and I, yes, I do have to remind myself that sometimes, it's a only short period of time.
• 31:35
  Tina: That you're busy for and all your friends will hang around and wait for you to come out the other side of it.
• 31:41
  Tina: I feel like this is just like a big long counseling session that
• 31:44
  Madeleine: I know.
• 31:44
  Madeleine: I feel like it's really nice.
• 31:45
  Madeleine: Lovely in, in very exciting news as well.
• 31:48
  Madeleine: I've gone part-time at work.
• 31:49
  Madeleine: Mm-hmm.
• 31:50
  Madeleine: I'm no longer a full-time employee.
• 31:52
  Madeleine: Um, that's very exciting.
• 31:54
  Madeleine: And I think when you were talking about.
• 31:57
  Madeleine: In your vision board, having the goal of having that time to, to create and, and, and practice your craft and write the novels and the books that you wanna write, that, that's a big tick, a big goal for me.
• 32:10
  Madeleine: I mean, I'm still working four days a week, but.
• 32:13
  Madeleine: That extra day makes a difference.
• 32:15
  Madeleine: Mm.
• 32:16
  Madeleine: I've already found, I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but Yep.
• 32:19
  Madeleine: Already, it's just making a huge difference and I'm very cognizant so that it's a privilege and that I can do this because I have a privilege to be able to do it.
• 32:29
  Madeleine: And I know that that's not always the case for everybody.
• 32:31
  Madeleine: So I'm super grateful for that, and I'm gonna use that time wisely, I hope.
• 32:35
  Madeleine: Mm-hmm.
• 32:36
  Tina: Yeah.
• 32:36
  Tina: It is precious, pre precious time.
• 32:40
  Madeleine: You're just thinking kombucha.
• 32:41
  Madeleine: You're not even even drinking.
• 32:44
  Tina: Oh, look.
• 32:45
  Tina: Well, you know, Madeleine, we did have a plan for, well, a tonight discussion, but we went off, but that's okay.
• 32:50
  Tina: And I love that.
• 32:50
  Tina: That's okay.
• 32:51
  Tina: But, oh, should
• 32:52
  Madeleine: we actually tell listeners though what our plan is for our catch up chats?
• 32:57
  Madeleine: Because I don't think we've announced what our plan is.
• 33:00
  Madeleine: We we're changing things up again.
• 33:02
  Madeleine: Mm-hmm.
• 33:04
  Madeleine: But we're, we're kind of going back to the old.
• 33:06
  Tina: Old format.
• 33:07
  Tina: The old format of we, we'll be doing our fortnightly catchups
• 33:11
  Madeleine: again.
• 33:11
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 33:11
  Tina: Yay.
• 33:13
  Madeleine: So we'll be catch.
• 33:14
  Madeleine: 'cause originally we were doing once a month and then we were doing author interviews.
• 33:18
  Madeleine: Mm-hmm.
• 33:18
  Madeleine: But we decided to come back and do fortnightly.
• 33:22
  Madeleine: Why did we decide that?
• 33:23
  Tina: Because we missed these really lovely chats.
• 33:26
  Tina: Dunno if anyone else does, but we did
• 33:30
  Madeleine: and it's a good excuse.
• 33:31
  Madeleine: That's right.
• 33:32
  Madeleine: That's right.
• 33:32
  Madeleine: And actually we were getting some feedback going, yes, yes.
• 33:36
  Madeleine: Catch up chats.
• 33:37
  Madeleine: And perhaps they don't serve much of a purpose, but that's okay.
• 33:41
  Madeleine: We, we get to catch up.
• 33:42
  Madeleine: And I think
• 33:43
  Tina: there was some golden nuggets in that discussion then that we just had.
• 33:46
  Tina: I think we, we go, we do our best work when we are just
• 33:49
  Madeleine: chatting away.
• 33:51
  Madeleine: That's right.
• 33:51
  Madeleine: That's right.
• 33:52
  Madeleine: What, what, what were we gonna catch up on today?
• 33:54
  Madeleine: We had a plan that you'd, oh, let's save it for next time and see if we get to it.
• 33:58
  Madeleine: But I did.
• 33:58
  Madeleine: Sounds
• 33:58
  Tina: good.
• 33:59
  Tina: Um, I think two things that we did.
• 34:01
  Tina: That would be cool to, um, chat about is.
• 34:04
  Tina: Um, recommendations Mm.
• 34:06
  Tina: Of various things.
• 34:07
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 34:08
  Tina: And I did want to, um, make a little recommendation because it had come up recently with another author friend who is sort of transitioning from picture books and trying their hand at some sort of longer form writing of mm-hmm.
• 34:22
  Tina: Um, children's books and, you know, they'll just asking for some advice and some tips on, on.
• 34:27
  Tina: You know, really kind of learning how to structure stories and flow and all that sort of thing.
• 34:32
  Tina: And um, yeah, they were talking about listening to the Story Grid podcast and there's also, oh, I haven't heard of that one.
• 34:38
  Tina: Yeah, it's, um, it's good.
• 34:40
  Tina: And there's also a story grid.
• 34:42
  Tina: Book and you can read both of them.
• 34:45
  Tina: And they're very good.
• 34:46
  Tina: I feel like though they're, they're for like advanced plotters and planners.
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 34:51
  Tina: So what I suggested to her is this podcast that I, um, listened to a lot when I was also just.
• 35:00
  Tina: Getting really serious about when I had my first full manuscript, and I just wanted to make sure that I was hitting all the marks.
• 35:06
  Tina: And it's actually called Fiction Writing Made Easy by Savannah Gibo, and it is a podcast that she does these really short, oh, actually she's got, she's got quite a lot of episodes now, but she does these quite short episodes where she basically goes through every, important aspect of books like, of story structure, so things like, um.
• 35:31
  Tina: What kind of genre it is.
• 35:32
  Tina: So she goes through that.
• 35:34
  Tina: Um, yeah, what's sort of the internal story, the external story?
• 35:38
  Tina: Um, yeah, look it up and, and see if you like it.
• 35:42
  Tina: But she's also got a really good website that is like a companion to the podcast and there's probably a good place to.
• 35:46
  Tina: Start because all the, all the podcasts have like a written sort of blog for each one.
• 35:51
  Tina: So if you prefer to look it up and they have like all these printable spreadsheet, um, printable sheets so you can plot to try and work out what your genre is or work out where you've gone wrong or sort of just your basic overall.
• 36:02
  Tina: It's really, really handy.
• 36:03
  Tina: Don't laugh at me, Madeleine, about my plotting and planning.
• 36:08
  Madeleine: Like, I'm like glazing over.
• 36:09
  Madeleine: 'cause I'm like, I can't do this.
• 36:11
  Madeleine: This sounds like awful to me.
• 36:15
  Tina: It's extremely handy for people who wanna do that, and it is, it's like kind of a nice, easy way in and story grids like.
• 36:23
  Tina: A few steps beyond that.
• 36:24
  Tina: So because Okay, so, um, you would hate Story Grid then.
• 36:27
  Madeleine: I know.
• 36:27
  Madeleine: Well, for context, Tina was like, before we hit record, she's like, are any like podcasts that you listen to, to help you with your writing and all that kind of stuff?
• 36:35
  Madeleine: I was like, oh, I don't know.
• 36:38
  Madeleine: I just, you just listen to the book deal.
• 36:40
  Madeleine: That's all.
• 36:40
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 36:41
  Madeleine: I was like, all I do is just the book deal, but I, I mean, I do love secrets from the Green Room, like that's mm-hmm.
• 36:47
  Madeleine: It's more about just talking about like writers and craft and I, I enjoy like Australian writer center and stuff, but, but, um, in terms of like writing craft, it's not something, and plotting and planning and, um, hitting marks, which is what you were saying, hitting marks.
• 37:05
  Madeleine: I've never thought about that.
• 37:07
  Madeleine: So when you were saying all these things, I was like, oh, I've never done that in my life.
• 37:11
  Tina: And that it's a, it's a good check.
• 37:13
  Tina: And for people who are starting out, just to make sure that they.
• 37:17
  Tina: Um, if or if it's not working.
• 37:19
  Tina: If your story's just not working for whatever reason Mm.
• 37:21
  Tina: And you can't fix it, that's when it comes in really handy.
• 37:24
  Tina: It's a nice little check off that be like, oh, cool, I've done that.
• 37:28
  Tina: I'm hitting all the marks.
• 37:29
  Tina: So my top tip is following off on from that, if your story is not working, go and check out this podcast and website of how do you know when a story's not working?
• 37:39
  Tina: Um, and look, I think I, I'm trying to think back.
• 37:43
  Tina: It was a while ago now when I came to.
• 37:45
  Tina: Came to looking into all of that.
• 37:47
  Tina: 'cause I was the same.
• 37:48
  Tina: I was like, oh my God.
• 37:49
  Tina: And sometimes I would listen to some podcasts and I'd be like, what are they even talking about?
• 37:53
  Tina: Like they're breaking it down.
• 37:54
  Tina: And to me I was like, that's feels really mechanical and really gross.
• 37:59
  Tina: Like just, just how are you getting to that?
• 38:02
  Tina: That's not a good way to write.
• 38:03
  Tina: It's probably not a good way to write, but it's a good way.
• 38:06
  Tina: To structure, look at it after you've written it and you've got the, and you've got the work there in front of you.
• 38:13
  Tina: How do you know if it's not right?
• 38:13
  Tina: I think if your plot, maybe if your plot's just not working, you've got plotholes or it feels like it runs outta steam.
• 38:21
  Tina: Um, I think you know that the middle, the.
• 38:25
  Tina: Saggy middle bit saggy.
• 38:27
  Tina: Is it saggy or is it soggy?
• 38:28
  Tina: Saggy, yeah.
• 38:28
  Tina: Is it saggy middle or soggy?
• 38:30
  Tina: Middle.
• 38:31
  Tina: I dunno.
• 38:32
  Tina: Is there, is there a term for it?
• 38:33
  Tina: Yeah.
• 38:33
  Tina: Yeah.
• 38:34
  Tina: Um, the middle.
• 38:35
  Tina: Because, you know, the first act is super fun.
• 38:38
  Tina: Yeah.
• 38:38
  Tina: And the last act super fun because it's all coming together.
• 38:40
  Tina: Yeah.
• 38:41
  Tina: In the middle, people tend to just go, oh, how do I get from one to the other?
• 38:45
  Madeleine: But it, but people actually call, there's a term that people use.
• 38:48
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 38:48
  Madeleine: I think it's called.
• 38:49
  Madeleine: A saggy visually makes more sense than soggy, I think.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: Either way.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: Either way.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: They're both.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: I didn't know that people
• 38:58
  Madeleine: shared that.
• 38:59
  Tina: I didn't
• 38:59
  Madeleine: know that was a
• 39:00
  Tina: thing.
• 39:01
  Tina: Yeah, I think it's a common thing where people just don't.
• 39:04
  Tina: Yeah, just, or they just hit a brick wall, I dunno whether to go any further.
• 39:08
  Tina: And there are ways, um, of yeah, checking it off and I think that's when it comes in.
• 39:12
  Tina: Incredibly helpful.
• 39:13
  Tina: So how, so that's maybe one day of knowing
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 39:16
  Tina: Do
• 39:16
  Madeleine: you know, I've never really thought of it in that way, where you feel like your story stuck, but I feel it.
• 39:25
  Madeleine: Like I don't look at something and go, oh, this is stuck from a plot perspective.
• 39:30
  Madeleine: I feel it in my gut.
• 39:32
  Madeleine: Do you know what I mean?
• 39:33
  Madeleine: It's like an intuition.
• 39:34
  Tina: Yes.
• 39:35
  Tina: And that's, and, and I mean it's, and that's the, I guess the physical way of knowing, but then like, the practical way is like,'cause it is stuck.
• 39:44
  Tina: So you are going, I know there's something wrong with it and I know it's just not working.
• 39:48
  Tina: And then yeah, if you like, plotted it out or something, you, you, you could find what it, what it is.
• 39:55
  Tina: Sometimes it is just, I can just delete all the
• 39:56
  Madeleine: words and then just start again.
• 39:58
  Madeleine: And that can, you can, you can do that too.
• 40:00
  Madeleine: 'cause sometimes it probably just doesn't work.
• 40:02
  Tina: You know, maybe you get to the end and you're like, something didn't, something's not right.
• 40:06
  Madeleine: But maybe instead of, because it, it feels very drastic to just delete all the words.
• 40:11
  Madeleine: And that's what I've done twice now.
• 40:13
  Madeleine: Um, perhaps I should have just.
• 40:15
  Madeleine: Plotted it out and then found where it's getting stuck maybe.
• 40:19
  Madeleine: And maybe that could popped it.
• 40:20
  Madeleine: Well, maybe.
• 40:20
  Tina: And it probably isn't like, it probably sounds more work than it is.
• 40:24
  Tina: It's probably just like looking at it from a distance and going, mm, well these are the things that you've gotta hit.
• 40:31
  Tina: Oh, okay.
• 40:32
  Tina: I just haven't put enough energy into this section here.
• 40:36
  Tina: And the middle, you know, hasn't peaked for whatever reason.
• 40:40
  Tina: I need to just push and push a little bit further.
• 40:42
  Tina: Um.
• 40:43
  Tina: To get to that middle.
• 40:44
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 40:44
  Tina: Maybe that's all that it is.
• 40:45
  Tina: And I think also when you have deadlines and stuff, you can't, you don't necessarily have a luxury of.
• 40:51
  Tina: No.
• 40:52
  Tina: Describing 20,000 words and chucking them.
• 40:55
  Madeleine: No, that's true.
• 40:55
  Madeleine: Deadlines add that additional pressure.
• 40:58
  Madeleine: Whereas when you are emerging and you haven't got a deal behind you, you can put that manuscript down for a few months.
• 41:04
  Madeleine: Yeah, come back to it.
• 41:05
  Madeleine: And I think having that ability to see it from above is really, really important.
• 41:09
  Madeleine: And when you are down in the weeds with the manuscript, you cannot see the issues when you're down there.
• 41:14
  Tina: No.
• 41:15
  Tina: And sometimes you just fall outta love with it yourself and you don't wanna write it.
• 41:18
  Tina: Isn't that, and sometimes there's nothing you can do about that.
• 41:20
  Tina: I haven't ne, I haven't actually ne done that myself, but I can see how it can happen.
• 41:24
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 41:25
  Madeleine: That happened
• 41:25
  Tina: to me.
• 41:25
  Tina: What happened to,
• 41:26
  Madeleine: yeah.
• 41:26
  Madeleine: Yeah, it happened to me and I think I will fall back in love with that manuscript, but I think like I got halfway through and I fell out of love with it.
• 41:35
  Madeleine: I, I think there was some issues with it.
• 41:37
  Madeleine: But I felt the passion just bleeding out of me.
• 41:40
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 41:41
  Madeleine: You need
• 41:41
  Tina: to at least see the end of your, of that story and be excited to get there.
• 41:45
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 41:46
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 41:46
  Madeleine: You
• 41:46
  Tina: know, it might take a little bit of practical thinking and work to get there, but if you're not even looking at that end bit and feeling excited for it, then yeah.
• 41:53
  Tina: Yeah.
• 41:54
  Tina: It's
• 41:54
  Madeleine: a strange one.
• 41:55
  Madeleine: But then I think also if you are.
• 41:57
  Madeleine: Uh, you, you, you, you hear the other voices of other characters or other stories and they take over always.
• 42:05
  Madeleine: And it's when you get, uh,
• 42:07
  Tina: past the first exciting act, right?
• 42:10
  Tina: Yes.
• 42:10
  Tina: And then, then the next story starts trying to pull you away.
• 42:14
  Tina: I know it's hard.
• 42:15
  Tina: And that's when you dump all the ideas crazily.
• 42:18
  Tina: Like it may not.
• 42:18
  Tina: No.
• 42:19
  Tina: And then you go back to your, to that one, unless you prefer to do the other one.
• 42:24
  Madeleine: I have a story.
• 42:24
  Madeleine: I have a story idea for you, Tina.
• 42:26
  Madeleine: Oh, okay.
• 42:28
  Madeleine: Um, I, me to write that.
• 42:30
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 42:30
  Madeleine: So just imagine this.
• 42:32
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 42:32
  Madeleine: Magnetic island.
• 42:34
  Madeleine: Mm.
• 42:35
  Madeleine: There's a murder.
• 42:35
  Madeleine: 'cause all my stories always start with murder.
• 42:37
  Madeleine: Mm.
• 42:37
  Tina: Mm-hmm.
• 42:38
  Madeleine: And then islands are a good place for murder.
• 42:40
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 42:41
  Madeleine: And then a group of writers are all suspect.
• 42:43
  Madeleine: They're on a writing retreat for a week, and they have to try and solves the murder.
• 42:48
  Madeleine: Jerome forced proximity.
• 42:50
  Madeleine: I like that.
• 42:51
  Madeleine: And one of them might be the murderer.
• 42:54
  Tina: Mm.
• 42:54
  Tina: My God.
• 42:54
  Tina: Well, Madeleine, we have.
• 42:56
  Tina: Completely gone over time and completely off script again,
• 42:59
  Madeleine: but it has been joyful.
• 43:00
  Madeleine: I'll let you get back to your, to your, I love your, I just love your optimism.
• 43:04
  Madeleine: When you sent me the, um, you're like, oh, what should we talk about today?
• 43:07
  Madeleine: And you sent me like the draft talking points and um, we have discussed exactly zero of, oh no one I sent one outta six recommendation.
• 43:16
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 43:17
  Madeleine: One out six.
• 43:18
  Madeleine: Mm-hmm.
• 43:19
  Madeleine: So good.
• 43:19
  Madeleine: Good on us.
• 43:19
  Madeleine: Yep.
• 43:21
  Madeleine: Oh, well.
• 43:22
  Madeleine: Well, I hope everyone has enjoyed our.
• 43:25
  Madeleine: I won't say the S word.
• 43:27
  Madeleine: So we don't insightful episode explicit, but our talking, um, and it's been fun and we should do this every Saturday night, but next time you're not gonna be in your pajamas and you'll have a glass of wine.
• 43:38
  Madeleine: Mm-hmm.
• 43:38
  Madeleine: Let's do that, Tina, with a glass of wine, everybody.
• 43:41
  Madeleine: That will be, that'll be fun.
• 43:42
  Tina: Yep.
• 43:44
  Tina: Hey, and you know what though?
• 43:45
  Tina: I think it should be a glass of bubbles for us, because I'm pretty sure it's going to be like our one, one year of the book.
• 43:54
  Tina: Steal podcast.
• 43:56
  Madeleine: Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
• 43:58
  Madeleine: And we're up July.
• 43:59
  Madeleine: We're up episode 36.
• 44:00
  Madeleine: We've done 36 episodes and I think we're doing well.
• 44:04
  Madeleine: That's really exciting.
• 44:06
  Madeleine: Okay, so thank you to everybody for continuing to listen in every week.
• 44:09
  Madeleine: We really appreciate it and your engagement and um, it's been so great.
• 44:15
  Tina: And leave us a review, please, if that's okay.
• 44:17
  Tina: Um, because it definitely does, uh, help get, uh, other people to find our podcast.
• 44:23
  Tina: And, you know, they could find, you know, these chats extremely helpful for their writing.
• 44:28
  Tina: Yes, please do.
• 44:29
  Madeleine: And I mean, Tina and I, and Natasha as well, we've.
• 44:32
  Madeleine: Financially backed this podcast the last year ourselves.
• 44:36
  Madeleine: Um, we do it because we love it.
• 44:38
  Madeleine: Um, we have learned so much along the way as well.
• 44:41
  Madeleine: Um, and you know, it's really helpful and I think the best part is when we see those reviews coming through.
• 44:48
  Madeleine: Um, because we know all that time and investment and money that we're putting into it is worthwhile.
• 44:52
  Madeleine: When we, that's where we know that people are enjoying this,
• 44:56
  Tina: and that's true.
• 44:57
  Tina: Good fun.
• 44:58
  Tina: Thank.
• 44:59
  Tina: Great way to wrap.
• 45:00
  Tina: Wrap it up.
• 45:00
  Tina: Madeleine.
• 45:01
  Tina: Enjoy the rest of your evening.
• 45:02
  Madeleine: It was good to chat.
• 45:03
  Madeleine: Have yeah.
• 45:04
  Madeleine: Enjoy your um, wait, what were you up to again?
• 45:08
  Madeleine: My cross stitch.
• 45:12
  Tina: I'm gonna post a photo so everyone can enjoy your progress.
• 45:15
  Tina: My cross stitch.
• 45:16
  Madeleine: Enjoy your coloring by paint, by numbers in cross stitch and tv.
• 45:20
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 45:20
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 45:25
  Tina Strachan (2): Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast.
• 45:28
  Tina Strachan (2): If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new S drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing.
• 45:37
  Tina Strachan (2): You can also find us on Instagram.