Latest / New Worlder / Episode #109: Evan Rail

Transcript

Episode #109: Evan Rail · New Worlder

• 0:00
  This is the New Worlder podcast and I am one of your hosts,
• 0:03
  Nicholas Gill.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Today we are speaking with Evan Rayl.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Evan is based in Prague in the Czech Republic.
• 0:13
  and is a prolific food and travel writer,
• 0:16
  and has covered beer and spirits for many years.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: His latest book is called The Absinthe Forger,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: a true story of deception,
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: betrayal,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: and the world's most dangerous spirit.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Evan and I have been crossing journalistic paths for many years.
• 0:32
  We have both written for the New York Times travel section for
• 0:34
  a long time,
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: and we also have an interest in food and drink,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: though in very different parts of the world.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: But we now have the same agent in last year,
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: said agent,
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: sent me a copy of Evan's new book before it came out,
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: and I couldn't put it down.
• 0:48
  For one,
• 0:49
  Absinthe is this intriguing spirit,
• 0:51
  and I've always been fascinated by it.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: It has this rich history that inspired all kinds of great art,
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: but then it got banned in much of the world a century ago,
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: and there's always this desire we have for things that we can't have.
• 1:04
  The book is part history lesson about the absinthe story and
• 1:07
  part true crime novel
• 1:09
  about this forager that was creating and selling what he
• 1:11
  alleged were highly sought after,
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: expensive,
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: pre-banned bottles of absinthe.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Evan describes this entire absinthe underworld that exists,
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: this community of enthusiasts who want to taste history.
• 1:25
  And how actual lost bottles are occasionally being tracked down
• 1:28
  and rediscovered in
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: chateaus and estate sales.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great read and I highly suggest getting a copy.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: For a bit of background for listeners,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: I just met Evan in person for the first time last week in Prague.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: We met up for beers a couple of times.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: I was there for a food writing conference at the restaurant Alma,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: which is really great and nice.
• 1:51
  I was able to speak about food media and presented some ideas
• 1:54
  from my next book,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Set in the Amazon.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: You'll hear more about that when it gets closer to publication,
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: which is still a very long time away.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway,
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: if you haven't subscribed to my newsletter,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: just go to newworlder.com or search for New Worlder on Substack.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's free to subscribe,
• 2:13
  though paid subscribers get access to all of the content and
• 2:16
  back archives.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Again, that's newworlder.com.
• 2:21
  Also,
• 2:21
  look for my books,
• 2:23
  such as the Latin American Cookbook at small bookstores everywhere.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Also, check out the New Worlder YouTube channel.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: We have full video episodes there,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: including of this one,
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: as well as other clips and random video content.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Just go to youtube.com slash newworlder.
• 2:41
  and please subscribe like us and share us every little bit
• 2:44
  helps this podcast get
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: listened to enjoy the show
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, how's it going?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's all right.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: So what's that you're drinking, then?
• 3:36
  I'm drinking a non-alcoholic beer because it's five in the
• 3:40
  afternoon here.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's quitting time, but it is a non-alcoholic from the corner store.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: But it is quitting time.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: So why does it have to be non-alcoholic?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've started drinking less alcohol lately.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really notice anything.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: The alcohol, I do notice not having a cold beverage around 5 p.m.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So if I skip the carbonated cold beverage, I'm not as happy.
• 4:06
  But if I have like a really good carbonated lemonade or
• 4:11
  non-alcoholic beer,
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  I'm very happy.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: actually,
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: I've been drinking seltzer sometimes,
• 4:16
  like at night when I usually would go for a beer and I'll just
• 4:20
  have like a seltzer
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: and it kind of cures the craving.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's just about, you know.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a little cold carbonated treat, I guess.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: But one thing I want to talk to you about,
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: because when I was in Prague last week,
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: when we met for the first time in person,
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: the beer there didn't make me feel like shit.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: I had a bunch of beers every day.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: It was nice out,
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  so there were a lot of times where I sat on a sidewalk or I met
• 4:55
  you in the pub down
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: the street from your house,
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  SPEAKER_02: and I had a few beers,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: and I didn't have some weird headache.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have some weird hangover.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Not that I was drinking too excess, really, but I don't know.
• 5:11
  Sometimes maybe it's that I'm getting older that beer makes me
• 5:14
  feel shitty more often than not.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: but I didn't feel that in Prague at all.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Why is that?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think the traditionally produced Czech beer is pretty gentle.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of the byproducts of fermentation,
• 5:29
  those normally kind of drop out because of the long lagering at
• 5:32
  cold temperatures.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the congeners, the things that give you a hangover,
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, aldehyde is a really common one.
• 5:39
  That's going to drop out of those Czech beers when they're
• 5:41
  produced the traditional
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: way using a long conditioning that is at a very low temperature.
• 5:48
  So the beers are just maybe think of it like supermarket bread,
• 5:55
  like artisanal bakery bread.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of a different process.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're the same.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: foods, right?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Bread and bread,
• 6:02
  but you're talking about something that's gone through this
• 6:04
  much more complex
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  SPEAKER_01: fermentation and,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: um,
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  SPEAKER_01: much slower processing time.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just kind of better for you.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:12
  No,
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  I mean,
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  it's like natural wine to kind of thing,
• 6:15
  but the natural wine.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sort of like that.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: That could be it.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, yeah, maybe, but I've never thought about it like that.
• 6:23
  And it's just,
• 6:25
  I like,
• 6:26
  I really noticed how good I felt after having a couple of beers
• 6:30
  and
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  SPEAKER_02: And I don't just mean like buzzed.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like my body didn't feel shitty after a few beers.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I was kind of surprised because lately in the last few years,
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  SPEAKER_02: as I've gotten older,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: the beer,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: hits me in a weirder way than it used to.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I think also Czech beer is pretty low alcohol.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's generally either 4% or 5% alcohol.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's hard to find something that's higher than 5% alcohol.
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  SPEAKER_01: The tastes have switched.
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  So it used to be about a 60-40 mix of all of the beer that was
• 7:05
  consumed in the country.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm talking about for hundreds of years.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have record now.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there was about 60%, 4% alcohol beer and about 40%, 5% alcohol beer.
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  SPEAKER_01: And go back to the first brewing of Pilsner or Kell in 1842.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have a record of what they brewed and what they sold.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we know what people have been, what people used to drink.
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  And only in the last five to 10 years has that started to meet
• 7:32
  and be more like 50-50.
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  SPEAKER_01: And now it has just recently switched.
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  SPEAKER_01: So now Czechs are drinking much stronger beer,
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  SPEAKER_01: 5% alcohol,
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  SPEAKER_01: than they used to,
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  SPEAKER_01: predominantly 4% alcohol.
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  It's still,
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  it's about a six,
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  well,
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  it's about 55-45 or something at this point.
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  so it's just slightly more of the slightly stronger beer okay
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  but i mean that's a
• 7:53
  subtle shift i think like compared to the u.s when you know
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  suddenly everything's a
• 7:58
  double ipa now and it's like eight percent and and it's like
• 8:03
  just that or like
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  strawberry wheat beer all of a sudden and like that's your
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  options and it's like
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  what do i do here and then that's i don't know that's when i
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  get a cocktail
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  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost twice the level of alcohol.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like double IPAs are super strong.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's like 8%, 9%.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, barley wines and so forth.
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  SPEAKER_01: Those are super fun, but you want to have small portions.
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  Everything makes sense if you keep the portions approximated or
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  in the correct size
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  SPEAKER_01: for the amount of alcohol.
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  SPEAKER_01: But too often we don't.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we drink a half liter of, well, this is non-alcoholic.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then you drink a half liter of 4% alcohol beer.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then you drink a half liter of 10% alcohol beer.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're getting a lot more.
• 8:53
  Anyway,
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  so Evan,
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  we have been writing for a lot of the same publications for
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  many years.
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  SPEAKER_02: We finally got to meet up in person last week in Prague.
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  SPEAKER_02: But before this happened,
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  SPEAKER_02: we had the same agent,
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  SPEAKER_02: Max Sinsheimer,
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  SPEAKER_02: and he sent me a copy of your new book before it came out.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I totally could not put it down.
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  SPEAKER_02: I thought it's so great and everyone should read it.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it's called The Absinthe Forger,
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  SPEAKER_02: a true story of deception,
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: betrayal,
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: and the world's most dangerous spirit.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: So tell me how you first got into Absinthe.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: I studied French literature in college and in a graduate program,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I specialized in the 19th century.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's all,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the great impressionist painters,
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  SPEAKER_01: the great decadent poets,
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  SPEAKER_01: the romantic,
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  SPEAKER_01: tragic figures,
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  SPEAKER_01: and absence was a big part of their lives.
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  SPEAKER_01: Absence wasn't available when it didn't exist or it was very underground.
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  SPEAKER_01: I remember my professor said you could still find it or something, but...
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: didn't exist.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: But when I first started coming to the Czech Republic,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: mid 90s,
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: late 90s,
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  the Czech Republic was famous as one of the places where you
• 10:09
  could get absinthe.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was really bad absinthe,
• 10:12
  but you could actually get it because it had never been banned
• 10:15
  here the way it had
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: been banned in other countries.
• 10:18
  But it was just like cheap imitation of true absinthe or what
• 10:23
  was it like?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was bad.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: You were just talking about not getting so many headaches or something.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's an instant headache.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it was bright green.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was the wrong color.
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  SPEAKER_01: Absinthe is not bright green.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's dark.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: So what made it bright green?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like food colorings?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, artificial coloring.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I got to taste this approximation of absinthe.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it did have some of the characteristics of absinthe.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was made with wormwood.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so forth.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that just sort of ignited my interest.
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  SPEAKER_01: And eventually, Chex started making real absinthe.
• 11:03
  Closer to the authentic stuff from the 19th century in France
• 11:07
  and Switzerland and elsewhere.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then right around that time, you know, I'd already moved to Prague.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Switzerland legalized absinthe.
• 11:16
  And then France and the United States legalized absinthe around
• 11:20
  2007 for the U.S.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd been drinking absinthe for 10 years at that point.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I started writing about it more.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: I went to Switzerland,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: where Absinthe is originally from,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I talked to a bunch of producers there.
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  And I had this connection of knowing the sort of history and
• 11:38
  the cultural milieu
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: that Absinthe came out of.
• 11:43
  And then I had this other connection from living in a country
• 11:45
  that had brought
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absinthe back to life.
• 11:49
  So I had two ways of looking at it,
• 11:52
  and it was very easy for me to travel to Switzerland.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: I had spent a summer in Switzerland in college.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: I actually did a double major.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I did French and German.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of like the difference.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Switzerland is a really fun kind of French and German.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then you move to the Czech Republic.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, where I don't get to use either of those languages.
• 12:11
  But Switzerland is kind of fun because,
• 12:13
  you know,
• 12:13
  you're in one canton and it speaks German.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: You switch over its other canton.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's French or Romance or Italian.
• 12:22
  And I traveled back to the places where absinthe was,
• 12:25
  and I'd written about it.
• 12:26
  I wrote an article for The Times,
• 12:27
  for The New York Times,
• 12:29
  about the emerging absinthe trail.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I came across this story years after that,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: that there was a criminal,
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: there was a con man who had created forgeries of absinthe,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: classic absinthe,
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: historic absinthe.
• 12:48
  And there was a group of amateur detectives who were themselves
• 12:53
  absent collectors
• 12:55
  who set out to prove that this con man had created these
• 12:59
  forgeries and ripped off a
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: bunch of people.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: So there was this...
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Basically,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: you infiltrated this community of absent collectors on the internet.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And in real life.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: And in real life.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: So basically this was like the Absinthe Underground.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's the Absinthe Underground.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: And they want bottles from before the band, right?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's what they're looking for.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the bans mostly happened around 1914.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: The big one in France, 1914, 1915.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the bottles from before the ban are really highly sought after.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: They're like pre-prohibition whiskeys.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like, it's this thing that you can't get, unobtainable.
• 13:44
  But the thing about Absinthe that is different from any other
• 13:47
  spirit that we know
• 13:48
  of is that it's one of the only spirits that has been
• 13:50
  specifically banned.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just Absinthe itself was banned.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Not whiskey, not bourbon or rum or gin or anything.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absinthe.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And in the United States, we banned it in 1912, if I'm not mistaken.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: We banned it about 10 years before Prohibition.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't about...
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: So absinthe was like,
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: at least in government minds,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: it was the worst of the worst.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was this like weirdly...
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: bohemian spirit that made you hallucinate, at least in their mind.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or murder people.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or murder people.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Crimes associated with absinthe.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's worse.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's worse.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: And there were real crimes.
• 14:35
  The association with absinthe is not necessarily true,
• 14:38
  but,
• 14:39
  you know,
• 14:40
  they needed a scapegoat.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was a moral panic.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're all familiar with moral panics today.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're having it all the time.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: When I was a kid, it was like Satanism and Dungeons and Dragons.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's true, though, by the way.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that was true.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like Stranger Things.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so this was a moral panic around at the end of the 19th century.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And people got upset about it.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: They banned it.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And because this one spirit was banned, it became this thing that
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: people always romanticize the past or often romanticize the past.
• 15:17
  And they would think that,
• 15:18
  oh,
• 15:19
  the absence from back then was somehow different.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or the absence from back then was better.
• 15:23
  Or the absence from back then made you hallucinate or made you
• 15:27
  see things or was
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: just more inspirational in an artistic sense.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And mostly because you can't get it, people wanted it.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: You can get it there.
• 15:38
  You can find these bottles that come up there,
• 15:40
  come up for sale every month.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's a new one that surfaces still, but
• 15:46
  There's this point on the timeline and that point in the
• 15:50
  timeline is like before
• 15:52
  and a limited amount of what came before and the stuff that
• 15:56
  comes after we're still producing.
• 15:58
  So there's a lot of interest in tasting these pre-banned
• 16:01
  absents to know what Hemingway,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: was drinking or Oscar Wilde or
• 16:08
  What Van Gogh,
• 16:10
  you know,
• 16:10
  the great impressionist painters were drinking absinthe.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you kind of want to drink what they drank and see what they saw.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: To confirm the myth or not, like, do you go crazy or not?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do you hallucinate?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there is that like curiosity too, right?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Not only the flavor, but this is true.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is the myth true or isn't?
• 16:30
  I'll be curious about that if I get one of those,
• 16:33
  you know,
• 16:33
  pre-ban bottles.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that people want primarily because they can't get.
• 16:39
  Part of what it feels like to drink one of those things is not
• 16:45
  that you're bringing
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: something from the past to the present,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: but that you are yourself traveling to the past.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: You're drinking not the same type of spirit, not the same recipe.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're drinking the same batch.
• 16:59
  In some cases,
• 16:59
  the same bottles as people you read about in books,
• 17:05
  people who are famous.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's a cache of these bottles that are decorated with
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: little drawings.
• 17:13
  And some of the artists who decorated them are very well-known
• 17:17
  proponents of
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: artistic schools like German Expressionism.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
• 17:22
  they're famous people who decorated some of these bottles that
• 17:24
  are surfaced that
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: have come out of Italy from an old palazzo.
• 17:30
  And nobody really knows where they came from or they know that
• 17:33
  you can get them and so forth.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe they're real.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there's been a whole lot of romance about it.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And for people who have a curiosity about absinthe,
• 17:44
  tasting those spirits is valuable enough to spend several
• 17:49
  hundred dollars for a
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: tiny little sample or several thousand dollars for a bottle.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So like for me, it was totally, I couldn't get it.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: So it was always something I wanted.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I was like, you know, at
• 18:06
  the teenager,
• 18:07
  like,
• 18:07
  you know,
• 18:08
  early twenties,
• 18:09
  you know,
• 18:10
  going to Europe for the first time.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: And like,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: and I read about it for so many years and it was,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: like you said,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: it was this,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: this inspiration,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: this muse for so many other,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: creatives.
• 18:21
  And I think I tasted it like in Spain because I think it was
• 18:25
  legalized in Spain a
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: little earlier than other places.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it actually... Yeah, I tasted it too.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 18:33
  there was a long tradition of absinthe that existed through the
• 18:39
  Spanish Republic
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: and then even under Franco afterwards.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: One of the early Pernod factories moved there.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't the Pernod that we know, but...
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: There were multiple distilleries named Pernod,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: and eventually the Pernod that we know moved there in the 1930s.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So they produced Absinthe through the 1960s at the Pernod,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: and they're known as Tarragonas,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: because in Tarragona,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: that was the name of the town where they produced this stuff.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And those are highly collectible.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: They're a tier down from pre-bans in terms of their monetary value.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: They're delicious.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: The early ones are just great.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't know if I tasted an early one.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I had just some cheap commercial one.
• 19:23
  And I just remember being super disappointed that I didn't
• 19:30
  immediately go on this
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: ayahuasca trip like I imagined it.
• 19:34
  And then I didn't taste Epsomph again for years until it was
• 19:37
  legalized in the US.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then in Brooklyn, Maison Premier opened.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember going there,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: and they had this great setup,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: and they had all these kinds of absence,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: and they knew how to serve it,
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: at least in my mind.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I started to enjoy it, and I liked the taste of it.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: I liked the theatrics of it.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: I liked the kind of buzz it gave.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: But it wasn't like what I expected as a 20-year-old in Europe.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: But it was just like a nice...
• 20:12
  nice drink and and i liked it so but so the one that i tried in
• 20:18
  2003 in barcelona
• 20:21
  was no that would have been legal that probably was legal um
• 20:25
  okay i don't know when
• 20:26
  it was made but it was legally produced in spain uh by the
• 20:31
  perno company until the
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: late 1960s and then there are other producers in spain
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: But for whatever reason,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: it wasn't the Spanish absinthe that brought the legalization to the fore.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was the Czech absinthe that did because...
• 20:48
  There was an importer of Czech beer in the UK who realized that
• 20:53
  the Czechs were
• 20:53
  producing absinthe and he started bringing Czech absinthe over
• 20:56
  and he challenged
• 20:57
  the laws and it turns out there weren't really any laws to
• 21:00
  contravene and so he
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: could just actually get away with it.
• 21:02
  And then he was very good at marketing and articles started
• 21:06
  appearing in British
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: newspapers and it was a very trendy thing.
• 21:10
  They could have been taking absence from Spain,
• 21:12
  I guess,
• 21:14
  but they did not.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was not what happened.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: There were Spanish producers.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: There are Spanish producers today.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're very good.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them even grow their own wormwood.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a really interesting...
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: product in a way,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: as we talk about spirits having a sense of place,
• 21:32
  and maybe there's an idea that spirits don't because the
• 21:35
  intensity of distillation
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: is so great that it destroyed the sense of terroir.
• 21:40
  But if any spirit does belong to a place,
• 21:44
  like single malt maybe belongs to
• 21:47
  rich highlands and and bourbon belongs to certain places in
• 21:51
  kentucky um absinthe
• 21:53
  definitely has a sense of place in the alps because because of
• 21:59
  the wormwood in the
• 22:00
  wormwood it's tell me more about wormwood like i i don't i
• 22:04
  don't know that much
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: about it i see it used here and there like i've come across it and
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like in South Africa last year, of all places, I saw a bunch of it.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: It was being used just as an herb in cooking.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was walking down the street and I noticed some wormwood growing.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a decorative plant as well.
• 22:22
  There are varieties,
• 22:24
  types of wormwood that are grown because they're pretty.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: They have nice leaves and so forth.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Wyrmwood is a plant that, uh, is, it's gotten a bad reputation.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: It does contain a,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: a neurotoxin called,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: that is why absinthe got banned because it,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: the neurotoxin can be sort of bad for you.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but absinthe itself is, I'm sorry, Wyrmwood itself is just a plant.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bitter herb and it's been used in, you know,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Medicinally.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Medicinally.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: For centuries.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's the source of vermouth.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's wormwood is the word vermouth in German.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where you get vermouth, which is another Spanish drink.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: It is itself.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: There are usually two types of wormwood in absinthe.
• 23:20
  uh grand wormwood but also roman wormwood or a small lesser
• 23:23
  wormwood it has a
• 23:25
  particular aroma um it is not what you expect it's piney sort
• 23:31
  of but not not really
• 23:33
  piney um slightly resiny um oh it's weird yeah i like i like it
• 23:39
  like i really
• 23:40
  appreciate the taste of a little you know a shot of absinthe
• 23:44
  you know just sipping
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: on it and it's like i i quite enjoy it
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a neat, it's a wonderful drink.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's unfortunately just got caught up in, in somebody's demonization.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 23:57
  and it was made into this thing that it wasn't like
• 24:01
  switchblades in the 1950s or
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: breakdancing in the 1980s.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not the thing itself.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's what people do with the thing that you can worry about.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: so yeah,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: that's,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: that's wormwood absent itself is a wonderful,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: really,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: really great drink.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 24:19
  Is it the ice water and the cube of sugar still used and the
• 24:23
  way you are supposed to drink it?
• 24:24
  Well,
• 24:26
  so absinthe sort of means different things to different people
• 24:28
  at different times.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: And for American people,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: connoisseurs of spirits,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: it's often,
• 24:35
  it fits into mixology and cocktails because it was used in
• 24:40
  those 19th century
• 24:42
  cocktails as a rinse or a float or a flavoring agent in
• 24:48
  cocktails with five or six ingredients.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's part of our mixology culture.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: In other cultures, it is consumed
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: with water as its own drink, a glass of absinthe.
• 25:01
  And it's not mixed with bourbon or seltzer or syrup or anything
• 25:05
  like that.
• 25:06
  The traditional way of serving it was with a sugar cube and
• 25:10
  water dripping over the
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: sugar cube into the absinthe.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I came to absinthe mostly in Switzerland,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: in this place called the Val de Trever,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: where it's from,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: it's a working man's drink there.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's no spoon, absinthe spoon.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a lot of paraphernalia.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'd prefer it without sugar myself.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: I do it with cold water, about three to one or four to one.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it basically becomes about as strong as a glass of wine.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: So what does the sugar cube do exactly?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, why is that the customary preparation?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: That I don't really understand why, because it's made with anise.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: So anethyl, it seems sweet to us, the compound of anise.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: It has a licorice-like taste, and it seems already sweet.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: It seems sweet enough to me, but a lot of people see it in it.
• 26:11
  Water is used to dilute it because it's coming at about 70% or
• 26:14
  60% alcohol,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: so it's a little too strong to drink straight.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: The water also produces the visual effect,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: which is called the luche effect or the ouzo effect or absinthe effect.
• 26:26
  That when it hits the spirit,
• 26:29
  oils,
• 26:30
  essential oils in the spirit mix with water and they cloud.
• 26:33
  So you get that you have this clear spirit that you add water
• 26:37
  to and then it becomes cloudy.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: But ouzo does that.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think other Sambuca pastis does that.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Raka and like turkey and stuff like that.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:46
  All those are anise-based and the anathol is what is doing that,
• 26:50
  basically.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: It looks cool.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: It looks cool.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: It looks cool.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Magic.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was clear and now it's cloudy.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the sugar probably added to the performative.
• 27:02
  I guess,
• 27:03
  but I think people really like sweet drinks and it's a way to
• 27:08
  enhance it.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: I generally don't drink it with sugar.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I do drink it with water.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: I am a fan of the modern Swiss style of absinthe.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which is not green, which is perfectly clear.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: It looks like gin and has no coloring at all.
• 27:27
  And that is because in the 95 years or so that it was banned in Switzerland,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: they never stopped producing it.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: They kept making it.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: They were bootleg.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: But in order to bootleg this,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: this drink that the authorities were trying to stop,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: they stopped coloring it because if you see a dark green,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: greenish yellow,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sort of disguise it.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: They left it clear.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: They just didn't skip the coloration step.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And they call this a bleu or a blue absinthe.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not blue, but it's clear.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or they call it a blanche, a white, but it's normally called a bleu.
• 28:05
  And the Swiss blues are this new development in absinthe that
• 28:10
  happened only in the 20th century.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: There were a few pre-banned white absents, but this was its own thing.
• 28:17
  And they also got new ingredients that they didn't have in the
• 28:20
  19th century,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: new spices,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: new availability.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so the absents actually grew and developed.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this weird...
• 28:30
  conflict where people who are into absinthe,
• 28:33
  absintheurs,
• 28:35
  are often trying to emulate the past.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: They're sort of like historical reenactors, right?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: They're like wearing their Civil War uniforms or something, right?
• 28:41
  And then even like wearing spats and,
• 28:44
  you know,
• 28:45
  19th century Belle Époque kind of stuff.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: They're reenacting.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: But absinthe itself didn't stand still.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absinthe kept developing and it became new things and it moved on.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that is what culture is, you know?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: So they're like...
• 29:00
  The years of the ban are,
• 29:02
  to them,
• 29:04
  it's like the peak and nothing shouldn't happen after that.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that's true,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: but there's a tendency for people to be,
• 29:11
  a lot of people who get into absinthe are into the absinthe
• 29:15
  because of antiques,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: for example.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: They start out as collectors of glasses and spoons.
• 29:21
  And artworks,
• 29:21
  you know,
• 29:22
  you're talking about the end of the 19th century in France.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: The artworks are gorgeous.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're beautiful, decorative posters advertising absinthe.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you can collect them and they're great.
• 29:32
  A lot of times people get into the antiques and then move on to
• 29:35
  embracing absinthe.
• 29:36
  But there's this connection with history that runs through
• 29:40
  their interest.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're into just spirits themselves,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: it's a spirit in its own right and it has its own cultural role.
• 29:50
  And certainly when you go to the Val de Trever and you're
• 29:51
  talking to distillers and
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: working men who drink it in cafes there,
• 29:56
  it's not this historicity or this historical reenactment of
• 30:00
  trying to be like Paris
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: in the 19th century.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a modern drink.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: So how much were people paying for these bottles,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: the ones you're writing about,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: the forged ones?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you could pay 5,000 euros for a bottle.
• 30:14
  A lot of times it was closer to three or four,
• 30:16
  but somewhere in that range,
• 30:18
  five or 6,000 euros.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that seems like a bargain.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Although the problem is some of them were counterfeit, as we found out.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: very often people would just buy a small shot,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: a 50 milliliter dose or 40 milliliter dose,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: and you might pay $200 or $300 for that.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: People were sharing these bottles.
• 30:39
  So someone would find one and then 20 people would chip in and
• 30:43
  each buy a share of the bottle.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: 20 people paying $300 is $6,000.
• 30:50
  And then you can buy your historic bottle of a 1915 Premier
• 30:57
  Fils or Pernod or
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: whatever you want,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: if you can find it.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: At the center of the book, there is a forager.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's a guy that,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: that was discovered to be putting,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: new absinthe into,
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: he was old bottles,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: He wasn't recreating the bottles.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: He was just,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: Finding old bottles.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, he wasn't recreating the bottles.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: He was just finding old bottles.
• 31:23
  And it's that tradition of collecting antiques that allowed
• 31:28
  this to happen.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 31:30
  Absinthe was such a powerful cultural force that there are a
• 31:33
  lot of these antique
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: bottles around.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: People don't just throw them out.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: They keep them.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's a valuable antique.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's an old Pernod bottle from 1900.
• 31:42
  But what I found fascinating,
• 31:44
  he wasn't just like pouring new absinthe in.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: He was trying to recreate the recipes in some way.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: He was a really good taster.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:54
  And what is the weirdest part of this story for a lot of people
• 31:56
  is that he was an
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: actual connoisseur.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: He was revered in his community.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is absinthe collectors, absinthe connoisseurs.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And he was known for having an incredibly good palate.
• 32:10
  And so he actually could just sort of taste a historic absinthe
• 32:14
  and think,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: how could I recreate that with modern absinthe and other flavors?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Things like that.
• 32:20
  No,
• 32:21
  I mean,
• 32:21
  aside of the whole fraud thing,
• 32:24
  there is a brilliance to what he was doing.
• 32:28
  I wonder if somebody like that could actually focus his
• 32:33
  attention on creating a new absinthe.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Could it be interesting?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he would have been one of the people to do it.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: He's a creative person.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: He works in a creative field.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things that was strangest about this story for me.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: I normally interview chefs,
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: white makers,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: brewers,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: people who create foodstuffs and want to talk about them.
• 32:59
  this guy created inarguably created something really neat a
• 33:05
  historic reproduction
• 33:08
  of a spirit from 120 years ago and he did not want to talk
• 33:12
  about it because he was
• 33:15
  defrauding people and when he got caught there was this whole
• 33:18
  brouhaha he went
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: underground he disappeared
• 33:22
  allegations came out it seemed like he uh ceased to exist right
• 33:28
  well i mean he was
• 33:29
  probably afraid of going to prison or something i assume but
• 33:35
  but yeah i think there
• 33:36
  is like a billions about him and has he has he reached out to
• 33:40
  you since the book
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: came out uh nick he he reached out to me last week oh yeah really really
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: For the first time?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, for the first time since the book came out.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: He just wrote congratulations on the book.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: He hasn't read it yet, he said.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I've written back.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to see what happens.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'll have an update on that one.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that was, you know, opening my inbox and going, oh, that's...
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: What did you feel?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I felt it.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was a little concerning.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's very polite.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: He's a very nice guy.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've met him in real life.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just someone I don't know.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: But what I found interesting,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think you were trying to so much as paint him as the criminal,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: even though I think it was obvious he was doing something criminally,
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: with criminal intent and all that.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I think you were...
• 34:39
  You were showing what he did and how fascinating and it was
• 34:42
  kind of impressive what
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: he was doing and recreating these old spirits.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think you,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: if anything,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: you open the door of something bigger within that guy.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely feel empathy of a kind.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a little disconcerted by the fact that he seems to lie.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: He deceived his friends.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole part of the book.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't expect when I was writing the book, when I planned the book,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: that he would contact me in the middle of me writing the book.
• 35:21
  So the book changed and I had to acknowledge that I suddenly
• 35:25
  became a character in
• 35:26
  the book because I'm dealing with the actual forger who told me
• 35:29
  to stop researching
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: his past.
• 35:33
  I do have a lot of sympathy for him,
• 35:34
  and I do think he's definitely a creative person.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: He's also very funny, and everyone will tell you, he's a funny person.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: He makes good jokes,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: and he's fun to be around,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: but it's a little disconcerting that a person could tell lies,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: and he lied to me.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying you're saying he's a good person or his actions were good.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying it's like you tried to get down to the deeper story
• 36:01
  of what he was doing and like what you exposed was that he was
• 36:04
  doing something
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: pretty amazing in,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: in some way,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: even though it's completely nefarious and you're not like,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: like supporting that in any way.
• 36:15
  I just mean like what you uncovered was,
• 36:19
  was more than just,
• 36:20
  you know,
• 36:21
  the crime.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was, I don't know, something deeper there.
• 36:25
  And I think that's why I enjoyed this book so much because I
• 36:29
  think it dug another layer of,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: that I'm not used to seeing.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for saying that.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: I really tried to figure this guy out.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the absence forger,
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: the person,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: lowercase,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: non-italics,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: the absence forger,
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: is,
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: the idea of that person is going to stay with me for a long time.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because like I said,
• 36:53
  I'm used to talking to creative people who want to show you
• 36:56
  their creativity.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this was a guy who was creative, but secret about it.
• 37:01
  And that's a different take for me compared to the people I
• 37:05
  normally interview.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, it's fascinating.
• 37:10
  How do you go down that path rather than taking that obvious
• 37:15
  skill that he had and
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: doing something else with it?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: like he very much could,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: even though he probably has to use a different name.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: I connect that with something that I think,
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I found fascinating in this topic in your book,
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: and it's the psychology of obsessions,
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 37:37
  And this like crosswalk in between how that obsession operates
• 37:44
  in the actual work
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: and the actual craft and why someone
• 37:48
  got an obsession about this and you know if art is obsessive in
• 37:52
  itself of the craft
• 37:53
  is obsessive in itself all these questions about historical
• 37:57
  products and and
• 37:59
  artifacts and things that we i don't know mystified exotic side
• 38:05
  and and yeah i
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: think this this uh
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: leads to very deep psychological questions of art production.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because in the end,
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: this is like,
• 38:16
  I think what you're addressing here is this connection between
• 38:18
  gastronomy and art.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking, you know, like fake artists, right?
• 38:25
  Like they reproduce originals and that doesn't mean they are
• 38:29
  not super talented and
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: that they don't have a genuine interest and,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: just a great taste.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: So is this like mix of,
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: The art in itself of a reproduction,
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: even if it's not,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: even if there is a lie involved.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then you address the psychology of obsession,
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: but also how that it's like enhanced by the prohibition,
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: the words of prohibitions.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's so, but the whole thing is fascinating.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: There was one of the collectors I talked to.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: She's a little bit not a fan of absinthe.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: She's coming from the historic part.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: She's a collector,
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: but she said she doesn't,
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: she's not that crazy about the taste,
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: but she used this word
• 39:17
  and to explain what people wanted like because these are
• 39:21
  priceless antiques these
• 39:22
  bottles are from 120 140 or getting close to 180 years ago and
• 39:29
  for me we probably
• 39:30
  shouldn't be drinking them but these people buy them and drink
• 39:33
  them you know finito
• 39:35
  it's gone and you think what you know what what is this that
• 39:42
  makes you want to
• 39:44
  take this thing that of which there might be only one in
• 39:46
  existence in the world and
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: just drink it.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, they want it to be part of their bodies.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're so interested in the spirit.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: They want to literally incorporate it into their bodies.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: so that it becomes part of them.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're like starting to get into some sort of transubstance.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: We just had Easter here.
• 40:07
  You're starting to think about an almost religious aspect of
• 40:13
  wanting to consume this thing.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: You desire it so much, you want it to be part of yourself.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a little hard for me to understand.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've been able to taste a few
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: pre-bands, just a few, maybe a half dozen or so.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they're great,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: but I always kind of feel bad that,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: oh boy,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: there's no more of this left or no one else will ever taste it after me.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: Last white rhino.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Buy absinthe, son.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: They ain't making any more of it, at least for the pre-bands.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: To paraphrase that one.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: So are there still more bottles out there to be discovered?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: When I was finishing up,
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think the edits on the book,
• 41:00
  I was researching oddball absinthe names to double check
• 41:04
  spelling and things like that.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: I came across an auction in Europe of a rare bottle or two.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I wrote to a collector,
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: one of the famous German collectors,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Wolfgang Klotz,
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: who's in the book.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, hey, is this auction legit?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, yeah, yeah, I'm watching it too.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just another 120-year-old bottle of absinthe.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think there were three of them that were coming up for auction.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't Sotheby's, but it was somebody's auction house like that.
• 41:35
  These bottles come up once a month,
• 41:40
  every few months,
• 41:41
  maybe even a case or something.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: These collectors are out there chasing down the last available bottles.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: That was just fascinating for me that they're using...
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Detective techniques to figure out where there might be,
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: where somebody might have stashed a case.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: year 19,
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: 1910,
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: and they're actually tracking down purchase orders from 1910 and saying,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: knocking on doors of old mansion and chateau and saying,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: you have a wine cellar.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any chance that you have a case of absence in the wine cellar?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're doing all kinds of things.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they're,
• 42:15
  they're actually surfacing these bottles and sharing them
• 42:18
  amongst themselves in
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: this sort of such,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: sub Rosa underground world,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm trying to think what other spirits have that.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a whole thing about dusty bottles.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess bourbon.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: But those bottles are often 20 or 30 or 40 years old.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:40
  With the pre-banned bottles,
• 42:41
  there's a real cutoff date for French bottles of 1914,
• 42:45
  1915.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's just the war starts.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: Absence is temporarily banned and then permanently banned.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for a century.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: most of a century.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there, there are collectors in all kinds of worlds.
• 42:59
  And one of these absence collectors actually pulled out some
• 43:02
  old scotches and
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: vermouths and,
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: digestives,
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: Amari and so forth.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he, he had a Jamaica rum.
• 43:10
  We opened a Jamaica rum from 1886 that he hadn't just,
• 43:16
  just had weird things.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, absolutely one of the greatest drinking experiences of my life.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you're tasting history.
• 43:24
  Yeah.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's another crossword, right?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like the art of artifacts, right?
• 43:36
  And the fascination about it,
• 43:38
  all the talent involved and the historical value of it.
• 43:42
  But then the art of the production of the liquid that the
• 43:47
  barrel contains,
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: which is another whole thing,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then all the food symbolism involved,
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: which is something that food studies focus on,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: which is you consume the other,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: you consume others.
• 44:02
  That's why cannibalism is so interesting for anthropologists
• 44:05
  and as a line of cooking,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: if you will,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: or consumption,
• 44:11
  because you are consuming something from outside and you're
• 44:14
  becoming that other thing.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that counts for every food item.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: or culinary production.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not surprised that in this case with Absent,
• 44:27
  these people are fascinated by becoming the people that were
• 44:30
  consuming it,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: people from that time and the whole thing.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's so proper of the food world and how it works.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: it's a special sub-world of its own,
• 44:42
  but it does connect to a lot of other things that we see in
• 44:46
  culinary studies or
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: food studies about how people react to
• 44:51
  um foods and drinks they love um this sort of obsession with
• 44:55
  absinthe you can see
• 44:56
  it echoed in other obsessions that people have there are
• 45:00
  ratings for absinthe that
• 45:01
  are not unlike rating sites for craft beer um and so forth so
• 45:06
  there is a kind of
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: echo it's just a really weird subcult of its own and
• 45:12
  I don't really count as an absinthe collector,
• 45:14
  but I'm friends with a lot of them.
• 45:16
  And I have been lucky enough to go to their parties and little
• 45:21
  soirees and taste
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: some of these special bottles from the past.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's been really great.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a favorite absinthe, the one that's being produced today?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like that.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't want to make any enemies or anything.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: in Switzerland,
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: in the Val de Trever,
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a big fan of the clandestine absinthe that are available in the U.S.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: as well.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Those are great.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're straight from the Val de Trever.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: They're very traditional.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: I live in the Czech Republic.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's a distiller here, Martin Zufanek.
• 45:57
  Big Z.
• 45:58
  Looks like a percentage sign,
• 45:59
  but it's a letter Z.
• 46:01
  Zufanek,
• 46:02
  he makes great absinthe.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: He's part of my story.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: He was one of the collectors.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: He knew the absinthe forger, the man himself.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole chapter dedicated to him.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: I've been trying a number of other absents,
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: and I did a book tour in the U.S.,
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: and I got to taste a few of the absents.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: St.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: George has great absents.
• 46:23
  There's several others that I've tasted that were just,
• 46:27
  you know,
• 46:28
  really great.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to drink absents,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: the place to go is the Val de Trever,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: though,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: where,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: if you're in a train station and they have a little quickie mart,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Literally they'll have like 10 or 20,
• 46:40
  20 bottles of absence in the Mart because that's what they
• 46:43
  produce in that Valley.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it's still,
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: it's being consumed just like as a casual drink in these little valleys,
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: people are still making it.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: How,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: how,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: how is it,
• 46:55
  how is consumption in like these places and like these rural
• 46:58
  parts of Switzerland
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: where it's made?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Is it, they just drink, you know, a little bit at a time?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: Is it an all night thing?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: No, they'll tell you that it's really reserved for special occasions.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not an everyday drink.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's something with friends.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's where when you have somebody over,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a special event to drink absinthe.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a shop there run by a great distiller,
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Christophe Racine,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: and he makes wonderful absinthe.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: He's won awards and so forth.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he has a little shop.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I stopped in to see him the last time I was there.
• 47:32
  And people are coming in every 10 minutes or so,
• 47:36
  coming in to pick up a bottle.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: And they're not tourists.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're just local people who are picking up a bottle because...
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's May.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to have a picnic in a couple days.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Our friends are coming over this weekend.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we wanted to get something nice.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's really treated as maybe like champagne might be or something.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a special event drink, but it's something you welcome someone with.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something you drink with supper every day.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Although during the period of the ban in Switzerland,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: it was something that people,
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: that was their normal spirit there.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's what you drink.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it still has this kind of connection,
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: but largely they'll say that it's more like a special event drink.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's expensive.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something you'd want to drink.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: crack open every day.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: What do you feel when you drink absinthe?
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: Can you explain the buzz of it?
• 48:31
  To me,
• 48:32
  it feels distinct from everything,
• 48:35
  but I haven't drank much absinthe.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a few times in Brooklyn.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what that means.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: The idea is supposed to be that absinthe is that there's nothing...
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: dangerous about absinthe itself,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: that it is just alcohol,
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: that the thujone,
• 48:55
  this neurotoxin is in there at such low levels that it can't
• 48:58
  really affect you.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's in lots of things too, right?
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like Thujan is in... It's in Sage.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, right.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: You get some when you, you know, it's in a lot of things.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, Thanksgiving dinner, I guess you probably get some.
• 49:13
  But there's a maximum limit to import it into the United States
• 49:16
  or to produce it in the EU.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's 35 milligrams per liter.
• 49:20
  It's less than that in the US,
• 49:22
  but there's a maximum limit because it's considered a toxin.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: The idea is supposed to be that it's only alcohol that affects you.
• 49:30
  But if you've ever had an herbal tea that really calmed you
• 49:33
  down or if you've ever
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: gotten really jacked up on coffee,
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: you're like,
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 49:39
  just one particularly good espresso or French press and you're
• 49:44
  just sailing.
• 49:45
  There's something of that in absinthe and that you are drinking
• 49:48
  a spirit that has a
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: lot of herbs in it.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: Those herbs have stimulatory and calmative effects on people.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's new.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I find when I drink absinthe is that,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: it's alcohol and it is a relaxant and whatever,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: but there is this kind of
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: cerebral happening that I start daydreaming really fast.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: I start having really good thoughts.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like drinking an espresso as well as drinking alcohol or something.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: Espresso martini.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there you go.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: It might be something like that.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: It has some sort of
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Speedball effect of being both stimulatory and relaxing.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I find it induces reverie.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: I start having lots of thoughts.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know the chemical explanation of it?
• 50:44
  Like with caffeine,
• 50:45
  how it like stimulates or the specific thing that causes that?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: I have a 16 year old who understands chemistry,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: but I haven't taken chemistry in almost 40 years.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know exactly how this works,
• 50:58
  but the neurotoxin does bind to some of the receptors in the
• 51:02
  brain that pick up cannabinoids.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's similar to cannabis.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was thought to be related to the cannabinoid receptor thing.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: That has kind of since been disproven,
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: as I understand it,
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: but for a long time,
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: it was thought that,
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Joan,
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: operated in the same way as cannabis or cannabinoids did on the brain.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: There is certainly something that does...
• 51:28
  happen if you talk to people who drink absinthe regularly and i
• 51:32
  know people who
• 51:32
  drink it every day and they will tell you oh no it's absolutely
• 51:37
  different like i
• 51:38
  love beer i love vodka i love gin drinking absinthe is its own
• 51:41
  thing and it is it
• 51:43
  affects your brain in a nice way you you're getting drunk you
• 51:47
  know you're or
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: intoxicated
• 51:50
  in the normal way,
• 51:51
  but you're also getting this herbal tea thing or caffeine thing.
• 51:56
  And in the book,
• 51:57
  I mentioned that I once got really jacked up on verbena,
• 52:02
  verbena tea.
• 52:02
  I was drinking an herbal tea,
• 52:04
  a Tizan,
• 52:05
  a French herbal tea with a friend in Paris.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we both just got really jacked up.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: We were sort of hot.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's an herb or an herbal distillate that has some of the effects of...
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: it's based on plants anyway.
• 52:25
  Yeah,
• 52:26
  like having that,
• 52:26
  but it's like,
• 52:27
  I'm trying to think of other herbal spirits.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, mezcal is a similar thing, doesn't it?
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because it has this medicinal...
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know about that stimulant effect,
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: but there is this herbal quality,
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: In mezcal, for sure.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: maybe this seems to be stronger in terms of the effect of...
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: But like amaros and things like that,
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: they have lots of herbs and botanicals in them.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I can't say I've ever felt...
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: like I do with absinthe when drinking an Amaro.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: and the Amari Amaros,
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: they're delicious,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: but those are primarily herbs that are designed to,
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: or we use them to calm or stimulate our stomachs,
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: basically.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: We use them after a meal.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you have things that...
• 53:25
  stimulate the appetite or which make us feel not so full after
• 53:29
  a meal,
• 53:30
  that kind of thing.
• 53:31
  The herbs that are in absinthe,
• 53:34
  I mean,
• 53:34
  I don't know if people have written lots of
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: poems or odes to Amari,
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: but the number of Impressionist paintings that have absinthe,
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 53:46
  great Impressionist paintings that have a little glass of
• 53:48
  absinthe in the foreground,
• 53:50
  and you can tell there was something about this spirit that was
• 53:54
  not just of its age
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: in 19th century France and Paris,
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: but also it was really important for these artists.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: They liked the color.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was this kind of dead green
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that, but they also must've liked the spirit.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we know they drank it.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: They, they talked about drinking it.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: They loved it.
• 54:12
  So.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: And as these people say to you,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's definitely not like drinking beer or wine or other,
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: other things.
• 54:24
  How do you feel studying and digging into it so much has
• 54:30
  affected your intellectual
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: take on beverage?
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, did you feel the difference approach on it?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 54:37
  Like the analysis of it made you realize certain things about
• 54:41
  the world of beverage
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: that you didn't get with beer,
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: which you are an expert on that.
• 54:46
  Well,
• 54:46
  I had a real interesting experience with absinthe in that I
• 54:50
  drink too much of it.
• 54:52
  and and i didn't drink it for over 10 years afterwards i got i
• 54:58
  got sick so on the
• 54:59
  new york times story like you were yeah when i was a part of
• 55:03
  that i was i was i
• 55:04
  just overindulged and i could not drink it and not feel i just
• 55:09
  couldn't and smell i
• 55:10
  do the same thing with stories like i have to like these travel
• 55:13
  stories where you
• 55:13
  have to like eat something or like the same dish or i don't
• 55:18
  know something like
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: that and
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: you like force yourself even to like beyond comfort.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about the enjoyment of it anymore.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like,
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: it's for research and you have to,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: for research and you just have to overindulge and taste everything.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it's, it becomes too much.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: I took 10 years off.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't, I didn't drink absinthe for 10 years.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: So when I came back to it.
• 55:44
  So when that happens intellectually,
• 55:46
  I mean,
• 55:46
  intellectually,
• 55:47
  what was the process of it?
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: Intellectually,
• 55:50
  I came back to absinthe because I came across this story about
• 55:56
  this counterfeiter
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: and this gang of amateur detectives who tracked him down.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that that stimulated my interest intellectually to follow the story.
• 56:07
  But at the time,
• 56:07
  I hadn't had absinthe in 10 years more than I didn't want to
• 56:11
  drink it.
• 56:12
  What happened in the course of writing the book is that I came
• 56:16
  back to Absinthe and
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: I found a place for it in my life,
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: a very small place as a very occasional beverage.
• 56:25
  But I'm no longer completely fascinated by it and I'm no longer
• 56:30
  completely repulsed by it.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: And instead, I'm just sort of in balance with it, I think.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: I hope.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: The mature approach.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe it's that way with most things.
• 56:45
  I mean,
• 56:46
  I had a friend who was really into beer and learned all about beer.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then he got into grappa.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: And he said,
• 56:56
  I'm not going to make the mistake I made with beer and where I
• 56:58
  learn everything
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: about it.
• 57:00
  I'm not going to learn anything about grappa because I want it
• 57:03
  to be interesting to
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: me every time.
• 57:06
  Ignorance,
• 57:07
  it's not just bliss,
• 57:08
  but it sometimes helps you maintain your interest,
• 57:11
  I guess.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: Someone told me recently,
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: it's like some of the best writers writing about a subject,
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: like a food subject,
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: are the ones that
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: they don't really know anything about the food.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, they're excited about it.
• 57:27
  And it's just that interest,
• 57:29
  that level of interest is what gets other people interested in it.
• 57:33
  And,
• 57:34
  you know,
• 57:34
  just having that excitement about it is what kind of drives you.
• 57:38
  And then once you know everything and then it's like,
• 57:42
  I don't know,
• 57:43
  no one's interested anymore.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, you can't write about it in the same way.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I felt like I had to relearn everything about Absinthe.
• 57:51
  It was a completely new subject to me when I wrote The Absinthe
• 57:55
  Forger because I'd
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: just taken more than 10 years off.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was a very new experience to come back to it.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:03
  what i i think we often overindulge intellectually with food
• 58:10
  and drink and
• 58:10
  overanalyze and become experts and sometimes when you become an
• 58:14
  expert you can't
• 58:15
  see things anymore whereas somebody new can come to the subject
• 58:18
  and say oh that's
• 58:20
  interesting this is like this other thing and you'll say no you
• 58:23
  don't know what
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: you're talking about you're not
• 58:25
  But the person who's approaching it with fresh eyes has a
• 58:30
  perspective that is valuable.
• 58:33
  Whereas when you know something too much,
• 58:35
  you might overlook obvious details.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_02: like part of what led you down this absence path,
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_02: at least I think I've read in the book or,
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think it says this in the book that
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_02: You needed story ideas.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: It was the pandemic.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_02: And this story just kept popping up to you.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: But travel writing has become so difficult since the pandemic.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's been so... There's just no place for it anymore, it seems.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think it'll ever come back in any way?
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think most things...
• 59:16
  which sense i mean it's just there's very little places
• 59:19
  publishing in-depth travel
• 59:21
  writing it's just become you know like it was already shifted
• 59:26
  you know everything
• 59:27
  online to just you know headlines and clickbaits and 10 best
• 59:31
  list of everything but
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: there's
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: there's not like places for 3000 to 5,000 word features of just like deep
• 59:41
  exploration of a place that's not attached to like a hotel or
• 59:46
  an organized tour or
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: something like that.
• 59:51
  We talked a little bit about this because we have a shared
• 59:54
  publishing history,
• 59:55
  I guess.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it came up and I'll tell you what I think.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think everything comes back.
• 1:00:03
  vinyl was dead 20 years ago and vinyl is decidedly not dead now
• 1:00:10
  and nobody would
• 1:00:12
  have predicted that vinyl would have come back in the way that
• 1:00:15
  it has as a format
• 1:00:17
  for not just collectors but as a fun I mean it was great vinyl
• 1:00:21
  was fun and it was a
• 1:00:22
  drag that vinyl went away but when you say my vinyl collection
• 1:00:26
  is back there yeah
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: there you go
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: When you say that,
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:32
  and it's true that there are fewer outlets publishing quality
• 1:00:36
  travel writing or
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: food writing at the places.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't necessarily mean quality.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like you could still find quality shorter things, little blurbs.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's fewer outlets.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's less of that stuff.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of our...
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: ways of sharing stories have switched over to video, right?
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot more on Instagram.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot more on YouTube and so forth.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: That is a way of telling stories about food producers,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: food trails,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: whatever you want to call it.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one aspect that where it's not writing anymore.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the same kind of writing.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's not text.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a codex.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a newspaper.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think everything's going to come back.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I do think things come back and they cycle in and out.
• 1:01:18
  And there was a point when e-books were the future and there
• 1:01:22
  was not going to be
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: planned anymore.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that didn't pan out exactly the same way.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: E-books do exist and the other one as well.
• 1:01:30
  And there will be YouTube videos and Instagram and visual
• 1:01:36
  storytelling in the film
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: format or moving picture format.
• 1:01:41
  And I think there will also be long form and reporting and not
• 1:01:45
  just listicles.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think there's room for it.
• 1:01:47
  But we're certainly in one of those points when the pendulum's
• 1:01:50
  at its furthest point,
• 1:01:52
  I think.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_02: No, I would hope there's room for it.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think people are traveling now more than ever.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think they do want,
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: they're oversaturated with the list,
• 1:02:06
  with the amazing and completely adulterated Instagram photos of
• 1:02:13
  just the magical
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: place that won the rainbow fucking mountain in Peru or whatever.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's this thing in Prague.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's an artwork that's in the main library downtown.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a kilometer from here.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is our library branch.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody put it on some kind of TikTok or social media.
• 1:02:37
  So now there's a line every morning to go see this artwork
• 1:02:40
  that's been there for 30 years.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not particularly great.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a tower made out of books with a mirror at the top and the bottom.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it looks like it goes up forever or something.
• 1:02:50
  And you kind of stick your head in and there's a little opening
• 1:02:53
  and you can take a
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: picture in front of it.
• 1:02:55
  But it went from being this thing that you just have in your
• 1:02:58
  town and it's just
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: always there to being a thing that there's suddenly a line to see.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you go, why is there a line?
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is just a dumb piece of art.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need a line to see that.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not crazy about that kind of thing,
• 1:03:12
  this sort of herd mentality of there's a top 10 list and then
• 1:03:17
  everyone just goes to
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: those 10 restaurants.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or somebody says, you need to see this thing.
• 1:03:23
  And I think if you go there and you think this is what Prague is,
• 1:03:27
  you'll be disappointed.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a dumb sculpture made out of books.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of cool, but it's not something you should wait in line for.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's a line there every day.
• 1:03:37
  And it's hard to get into the library because people are
• 1:03:40
  standing there not to go
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_01: get books or return books or...
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: Use a computer.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: To take a fucking selfie.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: They want to take a selfie in front of this piece of art that's,
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: it's been there for a long time.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, many people like to be told what to do.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: They do.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: They do.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: And they just want to know.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes you get people who come to a town and they say,
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: they'll say,
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to New York.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: What do I need to see?
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_03: And you go, what are you doing?
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm in New York.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_01: Where should I go?
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you go, oh my God, you should have planned this earlier.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, I get those questions all the time too.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: Where do I eat in Lima?
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_02: There's fucking a thousand great restaurants.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_02: You need to be more specific.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: Come on.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_02: What do you really want to eat?
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_02: Why do you want to eat it?
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: Use your goddamn brain, people.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or just walk.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_00: The amazing thing you find.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: I had such a great...
• 1:04:42
  time in Prague because I really didn't have,
• 1:04:46
  like I was there 25 years ago.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't remember it really at all,
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_02: other than just some vague,
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: ideas of streets and things like that.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: But there was no like specific things I wanted to go back to.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_02: There wasn't any really specific anything I wanted to see or go visit.
• 1:05:05
  And I just walked around for like several days and the weather
• 1:05:09
  was beautiful and
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: When I was thirsty, I'd stop and I'd get a beer or some food.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just fucking lovely.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I wish I could travel more like that.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I wish more people would just travel like that.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_02: Just go to a place and get fucking lost in it.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_02: And things will happen.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's great.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's got to be room for serendipity, right?
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's tough.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: We have so much information.
• 1:05:40
  available it's hard not to use it but you know you can see
• 1:05:45
  sometimes and you know
• 1:05:47
  this as well when you write sometimes things just go out of
• 1:05:49
  date you know or they
• 1:05:50
  reprint an article from five years ago and they didn't update
• 1:05:53
  it and so you know
• 1:05:54
  it's out of date but i think it has to do too with the personal
• 1:06:01
  take on things like
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: like this is connection with your own body you are told what to eat
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: in which measure, because you need this and this.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_00: What about me figuring out what I need every day?
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's the same.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of creating year-round take on the city,
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: We are so afraid of missing out what we are supposed not to miss out.
• 1:06:27
  We've let other people on the internet decide for us what we're
• 1:06:31
  supposed to do all the time.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of thinking for yourself and researching things,
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_02: we take whoever's opinion on fucking Twitter or whatever thing it is now.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: We just accept this very vocal person's viewpoint all the time.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_02: You develop no critical thought about whatever situation.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_00: Most important thing.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there has to be...
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're missing by not wanting to.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: FOMO is is evil.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so much that happens when you just let serendipity help you.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've had some really great travel experiences that way.
• 1:07:14
  I tend to I don't travel that much,
• 1:07:16
  to be honest,
• 1:07:17
  unless it's really for work.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've got family and kids and everything.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: I like to be here.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes I come up with.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: dumb things to do.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:07:27
  I really want to see a certain house that some architect may
• 1:07:32
  not really important,
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: but it's just from,
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_02: but it gives you some direction.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: or birdwatching,
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think this summer I'm going to go,
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: there's some place I can go see.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a birdwatcher.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not a birder, but,
• 1:07:52
  But there is a place where you can see a certain rare bird in
• 1:07:55
  South Moravia.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that sounds cool.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like to see a rare bird.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the Great Bustard.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's the largest... Largest bustard?
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: Largest flying bird, I think, in weight or something like that.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's a reason to travel.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it gets you there that is not a list of 10 best.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_02: Next time, I'll save time for the great buster.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: South Moravia, I'm telling you.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in Spain, I think you can see them there too.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: They're really big.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're really, really large.
• 1:08:32
  But the point is really to find a reason to do anything and
• 1:08:36
  just to try to find a
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: way to enjoy the short amount of time that we have on this planet.
• 1:08:41
  Nobody knows how long you get and you should find happiness and
• 1:08:45
  pleasure where you can.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, in absinthe or anything.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, bird watching.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_02: All right, man.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_02: We could talk for hours.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't even get into Chili's at all.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know, right?
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_02: I know you're into Chili's.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: Another time, another time.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on the podcast.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's great to meet you.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's a pleasure.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_02: I really enjoyed the book,
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: and I hope people go out and buy it,
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_02: and I hope it gets turned into a movie because I think it would be great.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: I really think it should be turned into a movie, right?
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_02: Max, Max, if you're listening, get on that.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll find out more about that.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on the podcast.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, man.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, everyone, for listening.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed that interview with Evan Rail,
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_02: who lives in Prague and wrote The Absinthe Forger,
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_02: which is in bookstores now.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_02: Go check it out.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great book.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if you haven't subscribed to the newsletter yet,
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: just go to newwelder.com or search for New Welder on Substack.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_02: Also, check out our YouTube channel.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: Check out my books.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that's it.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you all.
• 1:10:04
  And thank you to my friend Pat Buzzard for providing the music
• 1:10:07
  to the show.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_02: See everyone later.