Latest / Pastor John Piper's answers / Was My Pre-Faith Suffering Discipline or Justice?

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Was My Pre-Faith Suffering Discipline or Justice? · Pastor John Piper's answers

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  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast on this Monday. Last Monday,
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  Speaker 1: we looked at God's active role in our suffering in
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  Speaker 1: APGA twenty one seventy one, one of many episodes on
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  Speaker 1: this podcast devoted to answering your most painful questions about
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  Speaker 1: personal trials and chronic suffering. So much so that I
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  Speaker 1: try to give you a summary of the ground we've
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  Speaker 1: covered in the past and the APG book on pages
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  Speaker 1: three sixty five to three ninety four. If you have
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  Speaker 1: the book handy, you can see more of what we
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  Speaker 1: covered there. But personal suffering is tied to personal discipline too.
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  Speaker 1: Just yesterday, in our Navigator's Bible reading plan, we read
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  Speaker 1: Proverbs three together on God's discipline, leading to this question
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  Speaker 1: from Andrew, a listener who struggles with a lot of
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  Speaker 1: pain in his life. Pastor John, good morning and thank
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  Speaker 1: you for this podcast. My question is about God's fatherly
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  Speaker 1: chastening in Proverbs three, verses eleven and twelve. How do
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  Speaker 1: we distinguish this chastening from the decay and difficulties that
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  Speaker 1: result from this sin filled world? For example, I was
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  Speaker 1: diagnosed with type one diabetes the genetic kind at age
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  Speaker 1: seven and later developed other health issues. Including chronic joint pain.
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  Speaker 1: I wasn't a true repentant believer until my late twenties,
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  Speaker 1: when I also began to have digestive issues that needed
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  Speaker 1: medical attention. Are all these physical issues disciplined from the Lord?
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  Speaker 1: And were the issues I faced before becoming a believer
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  Speaker 1: God's wrath rather than his discipline? How do I discern
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  Speaker 1: between God's discipline and the physical difficulties that could also
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  Speaker 1: be explained as decay in a fallen world or judgment
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  Speaker 1: from Him in my sin?
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  Speaker 2: There is one particular question in this cluster of questions
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  Speaker 2: that we haven't dealt with as directly as we have
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  Speaker 2: some of the others. We've talked before about how to
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  Speaker 2: distinguish or whether we should distinguish God's chastening in our
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  Speaker 2: pain from the ordinary pain that everyone experiences because we
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  Speaker 2: are all part of the fallen world, but we have
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  Speaker 2: not dealt with as directly the question which Andrew asks,
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  Speaker 2: were the issues that I faced before becoming a believer
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  Speaker 2: God's wrath rather than discipline. That's a unique question, So
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  Speaker 2: let's ponder that for a few minutes, because I think
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  Speaker 2: it will shed light across the other questions as well.
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  Speaker 2: I think the first thing to realize is that all
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  Speaker 2: of us, without exception, come into the world under condemnation,
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  Speaker 2: under wrath. Paul calls all of us children of wrath
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  Speaker 2: in Ephesians two. Now that includes people who never become
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  Speaker 2: believers in Christ, and it includes people who do become
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  Speaker 2: believers in Christ. Romans five sixteen says the judgment following
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  Speaker 2: Adams one trespass brought condemnation by one man's trespass. Death
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  Speaker 2: reigned through that one man, one trespass led to condemnation
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  Speaker 2: for all men. So before we were united to Christ
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  Speaker 2: by faith, we were all rightfully viewed by God in
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  Speaker 2: our fallen human nature, as subject to wrath and condemnation.
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  Speaker 2: And the penalty for that was not only death, but
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  Speaker 2: the entire futility and corruption that marks the whole creation.
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  Speaker 2: Here's Romans eighth nineteen following the creation was subjected to futility.
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  Speaker 2: That's the whole creation subjected to futility, not willingly, but
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  Speaker 2: because of him, that is God, who subjected it in
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  Speaker 2: hope that the creation itself will be set free from
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  Speaker 2: its bondage to corruption. So he calls it feutile. He
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  Speaker 2: calls it bondage to corruption, and obtain the freedom of
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  Speaker 2: the glory of the children of God. All the natural disasters,
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  Speaker 2: all the diseases like diabetes and joint pain, all the
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  Speaker 2: suffering in the world is owing to our union with
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  Speaker 2: Adam in his disobedience, our sin, and God's just response
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  Speaker 2: in wrath and judgment. And just to make it clear
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  Speaker 2: that this is true of all of God's precious born
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  Speaker 2: again adopted, justified children, Paul says this striking thing in
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  Speaker 2: Ephesians two one to three. He says, we all once
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  Speaker 2: lived among the sons of disobedience, in the passions of
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  Speaker 2: our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and
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  Speaker 2: the mind, and were by nature. So that's people who
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  Speaker 2: have been saved, but once were by nature children of
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  Speaker 2: wrath like the rest of mankind. And I think it's
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  Speaker 2: absolutely crucial to notice that that little phrase by nature,
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  Speaker 2: by nature children of wrath. Christians were by nature children
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  Speaker 2: of wrath. And the reason that's so crucial is because
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  Speaker 2: it wasn't our only identity. We had another identity even
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  Speaker 2: before we became Christians by election, So you can juxtapose
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  Speaker 2: by nature children of wrath and by election we were
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  Speaker 2: not children of wrath, but destined for adoption to be
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  Speaker 2: children of God. So here's here's Ephesians four. I mean
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  Speaker 2: one four chose us in Christ before the foundation of
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  Speaker 2: the world, So that's election. He chose us election. He
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  Speaker 2: predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ,
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  Speaker 2: according to the purpose of his will, to the praise
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  Speaker 2: of the glory of his grace. So here is a
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  Speaker 2: huge reality that goes right to the heart of Andrew's question.
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  Speaker 2: Before we were Christians, we had a double identity by nature,
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  Speaker 2: children of wrath, by election, destined to be children of God.
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  Speaker 2: And the reason it is possible for any of us
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  Speaker 2: to pass from being a child of wrath to being
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  Speaker 2: a child of God is because God, in his glorious
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  Speaker 2: redemptive plan, sent his only divine son, Jesus Christ, into
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  Speaker 2: the world to bear his wrath and forgive our sins.
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  Speaker 2: So here's John five twenty four. This has got to
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  Speaker 2: be one of the most wonderful verses in the Bible.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, there are a lot of wonderful verses, right,
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  Speaker 2: but let'sten listen to this. Whoever hears my word and
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  Speaker 2: believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does
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  Speaker 2: not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
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  Speaker 2: That's staggering. Your death is behind you, Christian, and Paul
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  Speaker 2: says in Roma's eighty one, there's no condemnation for those
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  Speaker 2: in Christ Jesus. So what does that mean now? For
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  Speaker 2: Andrew's diabetes contracted before he was a Christian, And not
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  Speaker 2: just him, but almost all Christians. Can think of ways
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  Speaker 2: that events and relationships in our lives before we became Christians,
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  Speaker 2: maybe when we were three years old or nine or
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  Speaker 2: twelve or fifteen or twenty, damaged us, hurt us in
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  Speaker 2: such a way that we're still dealing with those effects
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  Speaker 2: of that sinful situation before we became a Christian, some
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  Speaker 2: natural calamity or disease or pre Christian abuse or whatever.
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  Speaker 2: Every one of us has something like that. There aren't
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  Speaker 2: any perfect families. So on the basis of what we've
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  Speaker 2: seen in scripture, I would say that just like every
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  Speaker 2: Christian had a double identity before he was united to
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  Speaker 2: Christ by faith, in the same way, the painful experiences
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  Speaker 2: of our pre Christian life had a double identity, a
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  Speaker 2: double meaning, a double purpose from God. Just as by
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  Speaker 2: nature we were children of wrath and by election destin
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  Speaker 2: to be children of God. Similarly, the pain that came
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  Speaker 2: into our lives was on the one hand and a
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  Speaker 2: proper and fitting act of God's judgment in response to
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  Speaker 2: our nature as children of wrath. But on the other hand,
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  Speaker 2: that very pain was a merciful shout of God warning
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  Speaker 2: us to turn from sin to Christ, and then in
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  Speaker 2: Christ that very pain might be healed, or it may
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  Speaker 2: be transformed from judgment to a painful and merciful means
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  Speaker 2: by which God proves the genuineness of our faith as
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  Speaker 2: we hold fast to Him, and by which He keeps
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  Speaker 2: us humble and dependent on Him all the days of
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  Speaker 2: our lives and brings us safely to everlasting pain free
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  Speaker 2: joy in His presence. So Andrew's question was, were the
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  Speaker 2: issues that I faced before becoming a believer God's wrath
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  Speaker 2: rather than discipline? And my answer now is that because
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  Speaker 2: you had a double identity before you became a believer
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  Speaker 2: by nature, a child of wrath by election, justined to
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  Speaker 2: be a child of God, both of those are true.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you, Pastor John. John five twenty four has got
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  Speaker 1: to be one of the most wonderful verses in the Bible.
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  Speaker 1: I love that. Indeed, thank you for that, in fact,
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  Speaker 1: it's one of eight Bible texts. Pastor John returns to
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  Speaker 1: you when the Bible feels boring to him. Where the
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  Speaker 1: Bible feels boring to John Piper, when his Bible reading
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  Speaker 1: seems flat, what does he do? He recounts its own
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  Speaker 1: testimony about itself, with the goal that it will rekindle
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  Speaker 1: his love for the Bible. You can find all eight
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  Speaker 1: of those verses in the APJ book on page seventeen
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  Speaker 1: if you want more, if you want to read or
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  Speaker 1: memorize those texts well. The second most asked about text
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  Speaker 1: all time I'm in this podcast questions from you. Just
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  Speaker 1: behind Romans nineteen twenty two, which is by far the
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  Speaker 1: most common text, is a very hard text, Romans nine
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  Speaker 1: twenty two. The second most asked about text is on
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  Speaker 1: Timothy two twelve. You ask about it a lot. We
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  Speaker 1: just read it yesterday together. I do not permit a
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  Speaker 1: woman to teach or exercise authority over man. Rather, she
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  Speaker 1: is to remain quiet, silent, women speaking women up next
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  Speaker 1: to Tony Rank. You will see you on Thursday