Latest / First Thing Today with Joe Thomas / FTTxJT 070326 Interview with Thomas Jefferson

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FTTxJT 070326 Interview with Thomas Jefferson · First Thing Today with Joe Thomas

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: The Sound College tuition for you from Joe Thomas. It's
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: first thing today.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: It says, if you know, the left and I mean
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: the Fabian socialists in both political parties are holding a
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: master's class on this two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: the declaration of our independence. Many years later in September,
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: we would ratify the US Constitution and then the Bill
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: of Rights by December of that year, and governing us
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: on this auspicious let me see if I say it right,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: semi quincentennial weekend. We can't just have a word for
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: two hundred and fiftieth anniversary. It was so easy when
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: it was the by centennial that we celebrate two hundred
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: and fifty years of an idea, A concept turned into
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: a governing process that has quite honestly led to more
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: countries taking our lead than I'm sure the gentleman in
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Philadelphia two hundred and fifty years ago had any idea
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: would take place. They were only interested in the farmers
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: and the tradesmen who lived in the American colonies at
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: the time. I am joined as a special and I
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: foresold this last week on the program, I said, we're
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: going to interview Thomas Jefferson this morning, and here we
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: are President Jefferson or is it Secretary Jefferson or just Tom.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: How do you prefer to be addressed? I guess since
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: your you don't list president on your tombstone, President Jefferson
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: is out.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: I tend to prefer simply mister Jefferson. I tried to
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: avoid formal titles, especially now that I am happily retired.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: And very happily. I know that much has been written
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: about how much you love Manicello and returning there and
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: talk about the summer of seventeen seventy six and the task.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: I know that you've written quite a bit that it
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: was quite arduous, it was hot, You had a kind
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: of a single room hotel in Philadelphia. Talk about that
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: summer and what it did to you regarding your public service.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: During the summer of seventeen seventy six, we simultaneously knew
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: how important what we were doing, what we were engaged
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: in was and was going to be, while we all
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: so didn't realize how important any one specific step was
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: going to be. We were under a regular pressure. If
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: you are being hunted by the most powerful military maybe
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: in the world, it's a lot of pressure. I know
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: that men like mister Adams and myself, we're on numerous
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: committees working on numerous projects for the Congress. We and yes,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: the heat was not a pleasant At the same time,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: I kept track of the temperatures it was. It was
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: for the most part in the mid eighties, at most
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. So I think you might have different opinions
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: as to what extreme heat might be, but it was
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: the overall pressure of the moment. For instance, we did
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: not know that the decoration of Independence was going to
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: be as important as it became.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: That's an interesting way to put it in hindsight. I
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: also credited with creating what we call the conservative movement
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: in Europe and the Western world, based on Edmund Burke's
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: The mp from Belfast and his response to receiving the
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Declaration of Independence and how well it was crafted within
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: the laws of magnet Carta, because it really was one
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: of the first instances of a country suing for independence,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: something that we see much more frequently this day. Why
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: did you think it might be possible to legally break
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: free of Great Britain rather than having to marshal an
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: army and battle them on the battlefields, which of course
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: wound up happening, but I'm sure there was the hope
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: as it was being crafted that maybe we wouldn't have
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: to do that.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: I never believed, in any great level of sincerity or
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: conviction that we would be able to avoid any clash
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: of arms in this contest.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: We did follow a very specific legal process. Petitioning the
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: government for redressive grievances is not simply a poetic way
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: to say complaining. This was at the time illegal process,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: and we were following it step by step, including not
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: just the existence of the Decoration of Independence, but the
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: form that I wrote it in as a lawyer, as
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: someone trained listened and studied the constitutional law, the British Constitution.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: It was a step in a legal process. Ultimately, though
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: we knew it was going to have to be clash
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: of arms.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: And as Patrick Henry said, not all that long far
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: removed from the William Henry Lee and the Virginia Convention
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: calling on Congress to take action, the ships were already
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: on the way in seventeen seventy five. The actions in
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Conquered and Lexington made it clear that this was already
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: a foot. Was there a concern and you know, people
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: in this day and age talk about how Congress doesn't
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: move very quickly. Uh, it's a year and a few
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: months removed from the shots being fired at Lexington and Concord.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Were some of the delegates getting pressure from their constituents
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: that you know that you know, nothing had been done
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: yet after a yearine change had gone by after the
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: first shots were fired.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: I would not say that it worked like that. First
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: of all, I had to say that I believed that
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Lexington conquered was the rubicon, was the symbolic crossing of
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: the Rumicon. When King George's third in Parliament turned our
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: own military upon the citizens or the subjects of the crown.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: That was a just as Julius Caesar brought the Roman
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: military into Roman brought the Roman military against the Roman people,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: the Roman citizens. That that moment, to me, I considered
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: to be the point of no return, where independency was
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: going to have to be the only option. By seventeen
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: seventy six, a great change that occurred because of Thomas
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Pain's Common Sense, the pamphlet published over that winter. It
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: is very difficult, and I think often reckless to say
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: any one person or document changes everything. But this pamphlet
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Common Sense did change everything. The Congress, the representatives that
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: came back in May of seventeen seventy six, primarily as
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: a result of this pamphlet of Thomas Pain's Common Sense,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: there were no no longer representing a conversation between whether
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: or not to become independent. After Common Sense and beginning
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: in May of seventeen seventy six, the discussion was when
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: and how.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: The win and how. Certainly you played the most seminal
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: role in But you know, I know that you have
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: written and take me into the process of watching a
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: representative body go through your work. You toiled very hard,
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: as you said, and I the and I am a
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: little bit of a Thomas Jefferson nerd that I've read
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: is you were not thrilled with watching the debate over
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: the declaration go on. And I'm trying to put it mildly,
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: take us through that process as now you've you've reached
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: a point, you've you've worked, and you've created this legal
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: filing and and now it's ready to go. You you
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: believe it's ready to go, and now all these other
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: people uh start to have their say about it. Talk
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: about going through that process.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Tom, I was not happy about the changes Congress made.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: I did welcome the changes made by fellow committee members
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: doctor Franklin, mister Adams, but I was miserable when Congress
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: was they changing it. They ruled about twenty percent, made
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: O eighty five eighty six changes, depending on how you
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: count them, and almost thirty years later, when I wrote
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: about it, I've referred to the changes made by Congress
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: as depredations in one situation and as mutilations in another. However,
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: I kept my mouth shut while they were making the changes.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I did not fight for every single word. Mister Adams
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: did that. But I accepted the changes because I knew
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: ultimately that once a people face a crisis, when they're
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: in that crisis, be it a society as we were,
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: or any endeavor of people group of people, you're going
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: to find the split of opinions and multiple sub alterations
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: in opinion. If anyone enters that conversation as if their
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: opinion is the only valid one or the most valid opinion,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: that group that society with fail in facing the crisis.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: So I knew it wasn't my word, it wasn't my document.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: As I wrote later, it was meant to be an
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: expression of the American mind. So yes, personally I was
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: unhappy that the changes, but ultimately I knew that my
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: own opinion, my own sense as an artist or an author,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to say, was irrelevant to the greater cause.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: That's one of my favorite parts of the founding of
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: this nation, and it's something we've lost a little bit here,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: is the ability to understand that differing ideas is not
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: a hatred, but a challenge to be combated with debate
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: and maybe in some cases compromise. Thomas Jefferson on this
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: week's edition of Freedom and Prosperity Radio, celebrating two hundred
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: and fifty years since the ratification of his Declaration of Independence,
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: and it set us in motion. Talk about debate and
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: how it had to coalesce. Eventually you wind up serving
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: as Secretary of State in the first then George Washington's
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: administration under the US Constitution document that tried to create
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: a governing process out of the beliefs that were born
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: out of John Locke and your words and the declaration.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I know that James Madison has a room in his
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: name at Maticello. I know he is a good, dear
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: friend of yours. How much input did you have even
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: tacitly in helping him come up with the idea of
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: how to frame a government around your ideals set forth
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: in the Declaration.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Very little. I sent mister Madison many books in Europe
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: that books on the history of governments that were not
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: available in the United States. However, he did that work
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: on his own. He deserves the credits on his own.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: To a frustrating degree, he would not tell me how
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: things were proceeding in the Constitutional Convention what was later
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: called the Constitutional Convention, due to their oath of secrecy.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: I was frustrated by that. Yeah, I had many conversations afterward,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: and the two of us together did establish many of
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: the precedents that began to define the Constitution when it
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: was at its earliest forms of being put into practice.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: But as far as composing the actual document itself coming
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: up with those ideas, mister Madison deserves the credits on
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: his own for that.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: I know that. Then you do the one thing, and
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: I'm so fascinated by the fact that there's probably two
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: three I get. I would be surprised if there are
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: more than five people whose tombstone does not include the
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: listing that they serve of this president of the United States.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: I think in many people's minds that would be the
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: apex of their accomplishments. You run for president against as
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: you said, you know, your co author, your co conspirator,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: if you will, from the British point of view on
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: the Declaration of Independence, John Adams, and create a rift
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: that you went on for fifty more years, you know,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: after for twenty five more years after that talk about
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: that decision. I mean you invented an entire political party
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: to make that happen. That's certainly not a gesture of Oh,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: I'm upset about some policy. I'm just going to start
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: an entire political movement and try to win the presidency.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Take us into that, because very little is known about that,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: you know, eighteen hundred presidential election, outside of the fact
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: that it was Jefferson versus Adams.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Well, this I think is very important, might be extremely
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: useful to Americans in the future. That is that the
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: election of eighteen hundred, the crisis of the election of
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: eighteen hundred, which ultimately became the first peaceful transfer of
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: power from one political party to another under the United
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: States Constitution, was not a contest between mister Adams and myself.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: The election initially can be argued as being having been that,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: but the crisis is symbolic of I think something that
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: a response to something you said earlier about the need
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: to respect of the people's opinions engage in different concepts
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: and principles, because the contest that resulted in the crisis
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: was actually tripartite and can be broken down to John Adams,
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Aaron Burr, and myself. And in this I argue that
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: it is a falsehood. It is a fairy tale for
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: children to say that there are two sides to every argument.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: That is simplistic and I think counterproductive, because you see,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: in reality, there are three sides to every argument. In
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: their most basic forms, there are two sides. There are
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: two sides that are in good faith and diametrically opposed
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: on principal ideology what have you. Then there is a
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: third side that is the amalgamation of those who are
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: in bad faith, which can be drawn from either polarity
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: in the discussion. But this third side, this free body
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: problem in astronomy, this third side is what can undermine
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: a government by the people. Aaron Burr represented that because
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: he was in bad faith, he didn't care you know, principles,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: any virtue, and ultimately what happened to solve the crisis
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: in the election of eighteen hundred, to keep us from
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: going the direction of the Roman Republic followed this pattern.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: The French Republic, our sister of republic, followed it in
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: a parallel to our crisis. What keeps that crisis from
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: turning into disaster and the failure of our constitution was
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: that enough people who disagree with each other in good faith.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: So in this case it would be John Adams, Alexander Hamilton,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: myself representing different elements of disagreeing fundamentally in good faith,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: realized that the person who disagrees with you in good
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: faith is not the enemy of America, is not a traitor.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: A person who votes differently than you in good faith,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: who has a different religion, all of that is not
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: the enemy of America or the person who undermines the Constitution.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: It is the person who is in bad faith that
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: will undermine the Constitution, who does not believe in rule
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: of law, like Julius Caesar, like Napoleon believes there, or
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Cleon of Athens who believes they're above the law, and
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: that those people that are in bad faith are the threat. Therefore,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: those who and good faith but disagreed with each other,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: vote differently, pray differently, if at all, et cetera, et cetera,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: must find a way, as mister Hamilton found a way
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: to convince colleagues of his either to vote for me
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: in the House of Representatives or to cast blank ballots
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: because they hated me so much they could not dare
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: to submit my name on a piece of paper. Or
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: mister Adams, who resisted all temptation to engage in what
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I called twistifications. But the federalists were trying to manipulate
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: the Constitution to hold on to power, and the people
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: had spoken, And in my own way as well, I
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: kept mister Hamilton's bank. I kept mister Adams. Navy did
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: not send out all of the appointees, and mister Adams.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: We found a way to realize that the three of
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: us we did not represent in truth enemies any of
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: us to the Constitution. It was this other element, third element,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Aaron Burr, who was in bad faith. If he had
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: been someone who was in that bad faith, who had
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: lacked virtue in the Roman sense, lacked any prince had
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: been at that point through these technicologies in the Constitution,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: elected president became within a whisper of it. In the
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: House of Representatives unto thirty six pallots, that would have,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: I think, been the end of the Constitution. So that
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: moment of crisis. I think that that three part definition
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: of the conversation, of the disagreement and of the solution,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: I think transcends so much regarding the enmity between mister
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Hamilton and myself, the antagonism that did exist between mister
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Adams and myself, he and I were friends. I think
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: that three part solution analysis of the core problem, and
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: then that solution based on that being three sides to
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: any debate. I think that is the takeaway from that.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Last question for you, mister Jefferson, and we appreciate you
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: on this two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the document
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: that defines so much of a life that really shouldn't
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: be defined by one thing. Both issues that passed your lifetime,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: but through the course of your lifetime, through the founding
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: of the University of Virginia, through your work as an
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: ambassador the Barbary Pirates that you confronted in the Washington administration,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: and then through your own and the issue that you
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: wrote so eloquently about. And I wear my listener's ears
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: out every time somebody says that Thomas Jefferson was a
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: racist or so and so, so I bring up that beautiful,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: eloquent passage regarding slavery that was unfortunately voted out of
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: the Declaration of Independence. But whenever anyone tries to sell
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: me the idea that you had a racial biases, I say, really,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: does this fellow sound like somebody who was a racial
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: bias those two issues, well, just if you can give
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: a thought as to as you came to the end
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: of your days, were you sad that they had not
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: been resolved by the United States.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I was frustrated by the robbery, piratical states of Northern Africa,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: al areas, unstripally, et cetera, and inability early on to
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: address the problem. Ultimately, I think it was during my
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: lifetime we saw a significant curtailing of that threat. However,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: the process began, and my presidens that did not end.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Regarding slavery, I did see Americans. I believe we failed
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: to address the problem with the Missouri We called it
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: a compromise, but it was not a compromise. It was
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: splitting the nation in half, or one side of the
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: line with one set of rules, the other side of
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: the line with the set of rules. And when you
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: do that, you're not addressing the problem. And I've said
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: I heard that as the death knell of the Union
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: when Americans refused to find a way to actually engage
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: in finding a common solution. Now, when it comes to
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: the slavery itself, I was born into a world where
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: owning slaves was considered normal. It was seen as an
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: essential to the economy. That does not make it right.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: And I will not try to justify it to you,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: nor should anyone try to justify me because of that.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: If someone just wore to say, well, I was just
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: a man of my time, well, the enslaved people were
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: men and women of their of the same time, and
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: they didn't like it. There were abolitionists in my day,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: men and women of our time my time, right. So
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: that is that the problem with that logic is then
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: that you can say of your own issues in your time,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: am I'm just a person in my time and I
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: must rely on these things that are perhaps hurting others
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: or future generations and do nothing about it. And then
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: perpetuate whatever problem you were born into without doing anything
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: about it. Now, for posterity sake, imagine that you are
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: visiting two undred years in the future from this moment now,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: and you're communicating with someone as I am now through
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: means of technology beyond your understanding. I can't understand how
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: we're even communicating now, can't even see it. But you
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: appreciate it, imagine, but I appreciate the ability to have
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: a conversation.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: But the point is, though, Imagine you're tw hundred years
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: in the future and you're standing in front of an
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: audience in one form or another. The audience is asking
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: you questions about why you did things that you knew
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: were harmful to others, maybe to them in future generations,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: but were of course considered normal or essential to the economy,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: or perhaps when you were born while you were coming
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: to your majority, and why you did not do enough
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: to change them in situ way that now, the two
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: undred years from your day, they are facing consequences that
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: they blame you for not addressing when you had an opportunity.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: I say this again, I stress not to try to
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: justify ownership, my claiming the legal ownership of people, and
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: no one can justify that. You must condemn that, and
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: you must judge the past as I did. I said
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: teach generations would be as advanced from my generation as
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: my generation is from the burners of witches. We must
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: judge past generations, but then we must turn that examination
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: upon ourselves. And the way I think we must judge
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: judge past generations is we must examine where did they start.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: What was normal when they were born, and that was
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: a problem that maybe they didn't realize was a problem
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: at first, Like I didn't realize when I was two
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: years old and I was being put onto the back
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: of a horse, put on a pillow, and I ended
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: up onto the back of a horse being held by
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: a slave in the first man night. Maybe you didn't
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: realize it was wrong when you were young, but you
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: learned it was. You judge these past generations, you must
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: judge them based on what they started with and what
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: they did to change it by the end of their
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: time on this earth. So my generation helped introduce introduce
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: democracy in the modern world, introduce true freedom of religion
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: into government, separation of church and state, a number of things.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: But we did not end dependence on slavery. We failed there.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Now you must turn that to your generation. What will
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: you if you were to if today were to be
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: your last dama and you were to be challenged to
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: write three things that you wish to be remembered for
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: that you changed from what you changed, from what you
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: started with to where you ended, what would be your
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: three things you wrote? Now?
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, oh gosh, I hope you're not actually hoping
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: to do that now. I didn't know there was going
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: to be a test, teacher, what do you see?
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: There will be a test, and that will be two
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years from now, Juture generations will be
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: judging you. A test is can you live up to
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: their judgment?
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Well? I sleep pretty well at night, so I hope
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: that so far, so good. I wanted to take a
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: moment and hear at the end, thank our guest. His
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: name is Steve Edenbah and he is very busy this weekend,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: and he has been incredibly gracious. As you can imagine,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: he travels the world, he has been the subject, he
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: has been the performer in several documentaries regarding Thomas Jefferson,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: and he has given us so graciously of his time.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Steve thank you first and foremost for doing this. And
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: I know you're busy. How has it been this two
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: hundred and fiftieth anniversary season for you? I'm sure it's
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: always busy around now.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you for inviting me and Joe really really
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: appreciate being brought on here to have the conversation. I
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: can say that this year has been definitely very busy
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: for anybody who does anything like what I do.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: One of the things that struck me about you the
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: first time I saw you do a meeting as Thomas
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Jefferson is you took questions from the audience, and I said,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: that's so unusual that we have a lot of folks
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: who do performance, you know, with you know, eloquent leaders
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: of our country, well written and plenty of material. But
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: to just take questions from folks in a restaurant and
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: not know where they're coming from. I've found that fascinating
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: about you. How how long and hard have you studied,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: mister Jefferson. I presume you continue to to be able
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: to do that.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: I've been studying and portraying Jefferson for twenty seven years.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: This year now mark's an important year for me because
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: it's America to fifty. But because this year marks the
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: tipping point, by the end of this year, I will
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: have been studying and portraying Thomas Jefferson longer than I
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: was alive before I started. A tipping point. For me,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: the research to reading is NonStop now it's I think
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: it's important to mention that I'm not alone in the
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: scholarship and the constant reading, the constant study. A lot
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: of my colleagues do the same sort of thing. I'm
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: on a board of directors of a small muff for
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: profit theater called American Historical Theater based in Philadelphia. Though
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: there's no brick and mortar theater building, where a website
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: of phone number, an email. We were one hundred percent
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: outreach and we send first person historical interpreters all over
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the United States representing historical figures from throughout American history
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: up until into the twentieth century. But not not too contemporary.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: It has to be history CAMPI contemporary, and most of
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: them do the same sort of thing. They study these
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: historical figures, they put together a character. It's theater. They
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: deliver the idea. I call it my thesis, but I
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: put forward I've got two major vcs if you will,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: but I'm putting forward for America to fifty and then
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: we open to questions. So that's it requires a lot
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: of call dealership, a constant study of every every where.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: You can not just learn the facts, but develop your
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: understanding and then you do things that you saw me
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: in Charlottesville earlier this year. Last week I was in Maine,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I addressed the Main State Bar Association for their annual
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: bench Bar conference. So you know, you find yourself in
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: a room full of a couple hundred lawyers and judges
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: and you open the floor to questions, any questions. You
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: never know what's going to come, and it's it's it's
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: part of the tension, it's part of the challenge. It's
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: also part of the excitement for the audience because it's
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: a when you open the questions. Now, it's not just
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: our job to share information. People can look up information.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: They can google, if they can use Chat, Gipt, whatever
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: it is. They can find information. Any historians job and
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: so if they're a third person historian writing books, teaching classes,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: if they are a park ranger, or if they're first
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: person historian, what I do a big part of what
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: their work is. Yes, it is to convey the information,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: but it is to challenge people to think about it,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: teach people how to engage in that and think about
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: the information. We're not just reciting things, We're not just
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: regurgitating tax and dates. Really thinking about it is most
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: important part. So that that constant study, reflection, writing, and
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: then subjecting myself to the challenge of questions, I don't
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: know what's coming is all part of an overall process
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: that has developed my own understanding and technique over the years.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: You do it so well and we appreciate, uh, you know,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: the interpretation and bringing to life these these figures there.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: And how do people contact you? As you said, you
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: have a website, I imagine Facebook pages and that kind
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: of thing, because here in Central Virginia, Uh, certainly there
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: are plenty of folks who would you know, love to
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: have that part of an event, uh or or even
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: to create an event around it.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks, thank you for asking about about how to
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: contact me. The best resource is my website and that's
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: your Thomas Jefferson dot com. So no apostrophies or anything
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: like that. It's possessed. It belongs to you if you're
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: just whoever you are Thomas Jefferson is a He's part
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: of American the American legacy, not north, not south, not
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: red and up blue. He's part of the American legacy.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: So he's your Thomas Jefferson. And that's my website. I've
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: got my email on there. I've got a form you
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: can fill out as well. There's also American Historical Theater
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: and that's a h theater somewhat ironically spelled the British
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: way t h e a t h e a t
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: r e, as opposed to e r okay ah theater.