Latest / The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers / They Asked 1,100 Women in 60 Countries About Failure. What They Found Should Change How Lawyers Handle It - with Deborah Grayson Riegel

Transcript

They Asked 1,100 Women in 60 Countries About Failure. What They Found Should Change How Lawyers Handle It - with Deborah Grayson Riegel · The Wellness Esquire Podcast: Happy, Healthy, Successful Lawyers

0:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to see you.
0:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to see you as well.
0:04
SPEAKER_02: Where where are you?
0:05
SPEAKER_02: Currently in Mykonos.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh! What?
0:09
SPEAKER_02: What are you doing in Mykonos?
0:11
SPEAKER_00: That's that's not fair.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what are we doing?
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh why here?
0:15
SPEAKER_00: There was a hotel that looked nice, and it it is.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: It's got a great breakfast spread, the gym and walk to multiple beaches, and it's a great place to work from.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: How long are you there?
0:28
SPEAKER_00: Don't know.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: Really?
0:31
SPEAKER_00: We don't plan.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: I can tell you how long we've been here, I think.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: How long have you been there?
0:37
SPEAKER_00: Hold on, I say that.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: I now need to think about it.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: I think a little over a week.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it might be like a week and a half now.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: See, I actually can't.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: That sounds gorgeous.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely gorgeous.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: We've been in Greece for I guess a little over a month.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: What's fascinating about this way that we live now is I used to be the most hardcore planner.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: And so people who have known me for a long time and you know across different phases of my life and identity are just amazed at like how spontaneous I have become.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, how wonderful.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how long I've been here.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how long I'm going to be here.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: And I I like it that way.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: It's wild.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: Perfect.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Heavenly.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Well, good.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad you're in a beautiful place.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: And uh I'm excited to have this conversation with you.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: I am too.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: I love your necklaces, by the way.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: They thank you.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: My mom just got it for me.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: My mom was just here for her 80th birthday, and she always shows up with a little present and brought me this necklace, and I just love it.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: It's a beautiful little pop of color.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: They're just wonderful.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: And I have actually been thinking for myself about what I can be getting for, you know, here up to show my personality more.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Because there are certain times when I get on a call with someone like you, and I'm like, oh, I know who you are immediately.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: Not that there's not more to figure out, but it's I it tells me about different things, about your vibe.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: That's so powerful.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: And you know, people in person know that I'm very much about pink, but on Zoom, I have to be doing this a lot and like put my feet in the air for you to know.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: And that's not happening.
2:25
SPEAKER_02: Got it, got it.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: Well, I highly recommend costume jewelry.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: I have a whole um installation on my wall of all of my necklaces so they hang as art in my office, and it's what I'm always looking at when I'm working, and it just makes me so happy.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: So, in case you didn't see in my um emails, you know, uh leading up to this, we're already recording because I have found that otherwise we lose magic, and then I'm like, wait, say it again, but then it's not authentic.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: And I was thrilled when I saw your LinkedIn post today.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: That you are experiencing, you're in the messy middle, I think is what you call I'm in the messy middle, yes.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: You were talking about anxiety and OCD.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes, which is a topic we talk about on the podcast routinely.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, although actually not OCD routinely, anxiety certainly.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: So it's time that we get into OCD.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm an expert, unfortunately.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: It's not gonna be, you know, you're not alone.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: And I I want to talk about in general how it impacts you, and specifically in the context of you are a really high performer for forever.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: I think that's fair to say.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, winning a communications uh competition at like in high school, that's crazy, and then you're teaching.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: So you've you've been excelling for years.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: With, you know, you're a human, you've got some struggles, and you teach other humans how to how to really kick ass while dealing with human, you know, experiences.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: So that all sounds right.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: First of all, tell me, how are you feeling in this moment?
4:09
SPEAKER_02: Hi, well, thank you for asking.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm feeling excited to be here with you.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: I'm feeling um distracted because my husband Michael had an accident on Monday.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: I think today is Wednesday.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: He had a fall on our stairs and ripped a whole bunch of things in his leg.
4:28
SPEAKER_02: And we were just getting an MRI this morning.
4:31
SPEAKER_02: He's having surgery next week.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: And we were supposed to go to Scotland for the month of August and just are in the process of canceling all of our plans.
4:40
SPEAKER_02: So I'm happy to be here.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm distracted with what's going on uh in my house, and um and that's life.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I mean that could there couldn't, it couldn't be more that's life than that.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: Wait, well, I'm sorry to hear that.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm glad he's okay-ish, though like this is not fun.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Um very big bummer about your trip, also.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: Yes, because I I know you've been doing some of like your own version of our travel where you're just like Yes, we've been going away for a month at a time, and we were supposed to leave in two weeks for our month, and now we won't.
5:19
SPEAKER_02: That's that's a bummer, and it is what it is.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm sad and disappointed and accepting, and I had a little bit of bargaining and denial.
5:31
SPEAKER_02: I had I went through all the stages, you know, within two hours.
5:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and now I'm like, it it is what it is, and we will have other trips.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: How does that kind of experience impact you when you have this baseline of anxiety and OCD?
5:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: Um I they're almost unrelated.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: So the anxiety in the OCD comes from such a an organic chemical place in my body that having external stressors is almost irrelevant to the anxiety in the OCD.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: And when you think about anxiety, right, anxiety is about having a certain feeling in the absence of an external stressor, right?
6:18
SPEAKER_02: You don't need the external stressor to have the feeling the anxiety runs on its own.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: So I said to my husband, because I had I've had this recent flare-up of OCD, and and my OCD is really characterized by um in intrusive catastrophic thinking.
6:35
SPEAKER_02: And I said to him, I said, Well, my OCD was right.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: Something catastrophic was gonna happen.
6:43
SPEAKER_02: I said, but I have to admit that my catastrophic thinking is so catastrophic that this is way better than what I envisioned.
6:49
SPEAKER_02: And then he made me tell him what I envisioned, and I definitely don't want to talk about that here.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: But um, I said my OCD was right, but I know enough to know that that's not actually the case.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: I didn't will it and I didn't bring it on to us.
7:02
SPEAKER_02: But um, having a stressor like this almost feels like it's running separate from the operating system that's running the anxiety in the OCD.
7:12
SPEAKER_02: So I'm fine.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: I'm, you know, it doesn't change my ability to cope or to deal with it or rationalize it or problem solve.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't change that.
7:22
SPEAKER_02: It I just feel like I'm doing it while I'm running a low-grade fever.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: I think that's sort of the way that I would think about it.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: That's a good description.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: Talk about the work that you do and and how you became such an expert.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: And if you could frame it in such a way, I think, you know, when I see like communications expert, you know, leadership expert, things like that, I think off the bat, I don't really understand how deep that can go.
7:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
7:50
SPEAKER_02: Well, so I would uh the the area of work that I focus on is what I call leadership communication.
7:56
SPEAKER_02: So that is um helping leaders at all levels present and communicate more effectively.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: The way that I often describe it is every time you communicate, you are either building a bridge or burning one down.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: And I'm there to make sure that people are building bridges as opposed to burning them down, and if they've started to burn them down, how to stop them midstream and how to repair if some damage has been done.
8:21
SPEAKER_02: So it's really everything from helping people become more confident, competent presenters and public speakers to becoming better storytellers, to communicating with emotional intelligence, communicating to create a climate of trust, difficult conversations, giving and receiving effective feedback, and all of these start with how you talk to yourself about yourself.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: So it's you know, communication and presentation can feel like something that you are performing, but the performance starts internally with how I speak to me about me, and that impacts all of the other things.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: That really hits home.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: What resonates for you about that?
9:05
SPEAKER_00: All of it, certainly.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: But starting with your comment about, you know, it starts internally.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: A few years ago, my husband pointed out to me that I was so mean to myself.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh, aren't we?
9:18
SPEAKER_02: Don't we say things to us that we would never say to another human being?
9:22
SPEAKER_02: Well, that was terrible.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: He was like, You're the most empathetic, compassionate person to everyone you don't even know, and you are so hard on yourself, and you just don't give yourself a break ever.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: And as is generally the case, he was correct.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: As is generally the case.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes, good job, husband.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: And so we spent I then kind of committed the next year or so to really practicing self-compassion.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: And every day I would write at the top of my you know physical paper planner, self-compassion as my reminder to yeah, be nicer to myself.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: And he would tell me quite routinely, stop being so mean to my wife.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: And it started to really go.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: I I still got some areas to work on.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: And in fact, part of why I was um sort of oddly delighted to see your post today about having a bit of a struggling time.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Was I I'm usually I'm now in a phase where I'm often very confident.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: I feel really good about life, who I am, and what I'm doing, and what I'm building, but I'm still a person.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: And I had a couple of calls today with women, women lawyers who are amazing and they are so kind and they're doing so well in their businesses, and they're so articulate.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: And I came out of the conversations feeling kind of like a baby lawyer because they were doing such a good job.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: And I just felt like, oh man, I really I have a lot of run-on sentences, and I could really work on the way that I communicate about what I did.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: And there was nothing from the conversation that I think I specifically did poorly.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: I was just, I got myself into this comparison game.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
11:11
SPEAKER_02: So common, so, so common.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: And especially among lawyers, right?
11:16
SPEAKER_02: You're in a hierarchical, you know, typically in a hierarchical structure, um, and often competing with one another for, you know, staffing on projects and and that sort of thing.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: And so I think the the industry begets it.
11:29
SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, women beget it and um and humans beget it.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: At this point, for me, it's a human thing because I have my own law firm and everyone I engage with, they're good people.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: And they're people like I would rec I adore them.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: And so it was just my own, you know, my own insecurities coming out and my own awareness of what areas where I can improve, because we can all improve.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: And it just was a moment of moment as if it was 60 seconds of you know of falling into that place of of not being so kind to myself.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: And you know, and um, and actually this conversation's already helping me to I I used some of my tools, and then this conversation already is helping me get out of it in because of your I love that plus the recognition that we all need of well, this is normal, let's move on.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: It's so normal, it's so normal.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm a I, you know, the reason that I post something on Facebook or post something on LinkedIn is because I am seen as a successful professional.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: And I if I'm going to maintain that reputation, I need to let people know what contributes to it, um, sort of the because of and the in spite of.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: And I would say that my anxiety and my OCD is equal parts, you know, contributing because of and in spite of.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: And so I I don't, I feel really strongly that I have a role in helping to fight stigma around um mental illness, mental health, mental well-being.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: And uh if I can be out there and honest about the struggles I've had over my entire life, I think other people will feel heard and seen and and maybe give themselves a little bit of the permission they need to just take a breath and be in this human mess.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: I I think you also just you you become an example of someone of how how far someone can go while in a mess.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: Because I think a lot of people end up feeling like, oh, well, but these are my circumstances, so I can't go X, Y, Z far.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll never be able to go as far as so-and-so because I have these circumstances, they don't.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: And when we talk about, well, look at what I'm struggling with, but you know, I find my ways.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: So what are some of your tools?
13:59
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that you mentioned in your post that I loved was, you know, being an expert in the tools and knowing the science around what our brains need is one thing.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: When your brain is yelling a whole lot of other things, kind of counter to that, it's a whole other thing.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: It's a whole other thing.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: And so, I mean, I'm I'm pretty lucky.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: I I want to see where this is.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: I here's a book that I wrote with my daughter Sophie called Overcoming Overthinking.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I can literally pull out the book of my own tools and say, all right, when I was, when I really had my stuff together, what did I, what did I say I was doing?
14:37
SPEAKER_02: And I can reference my own thinking from a, you know, from a you know, cognitively and emotionally healthier time.
14:43
SPEAKER_02: So that's really helpful.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: One thing that I know now that I didn't before I got help for my OCD and anxiety is I now know that I can and will feel better before I got help for it when I was in my 40s.
15:00
SPEAKER_02: I just thought this is the way, right?
15:02
SPEAKER_02: Like it's the way to be operating with, you know, the emotional equivalent of a low-grade fever.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, and now I know, oh, right, I used to feel like this, and I'm not gonna feel like this forever.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: It may take some experimentation for me to get to the other place, but I now have proof that there's another place, and that makes me feel very, very relieved.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that is really, really helpful to me.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: I also now know that um I don't, I don't and shouldn't believe my catastrophic thinking, that it is not, it's descriptive, but it's not predictive.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I now know that it is the thinking that goes, well, if I X, then Y will happen, is purely made up mental math, and it doesn't mean anything.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: And so that's something that I have now that I didn't have uh, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, and that's really helpful.
16:04
SPEAKER_02: I also, you know, 10, 10 or 15 years ago, I wasn't talking about it, and now I'm talking about it, and I have a million people who want to help me, including people who I would like to have help me and people who I would not like to have help me.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: I've also feel like in the last decade or so, since I've been, you know, talking about this publicly, I've also been pretty public about what feels to me like support and what doesn't.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: So the people that I do reach out to for support know that, for example, I do not need somebody to to help me think of the silver lining or look at the bright side.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: I can do that all by myself, even when I'm having a tough bout.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: I need somebody to empathize with me, to say, I know this hurts, I know this is hard, and maybe remind me what what I'm capable of, but I don't need somebody to remind me that this too shall pass because I can do that for myself.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: Are there certain tools that you know would be helpful, but that while you're in that messy phase, you just have a harder time steering yourself to that you would tell, you know, someone you're coaching, do this, try this.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: I think it, I think it's sort of the difference between an acute flare-up and a chronic flare-up.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I'm having an acute flare-up right now where like I feel it physically, the anxiety and OCD is in my body.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: And so right now, the most helpful thing is breathing, right?
17:31
SPEAKER_02: Like literally just remembering to breathe is really helpful to me and to lower the bar on anything that I can possibly lower the bar on, um, which isn't, you know, isn't something that is sustainable.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, the breathing is always sustainable.
17:49
SPEAKER_02: Having a low bar isn't, you know, isn't how I get through life through through regular life.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: I have a pretty high bar.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, but for right now, it's what can I take off my plate?
17:58
SPEAKER_02: Where can I phone it in?
18:00
SPEAKER_02: What could I cancel?
18:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, what doesn't need me to show up at an A plus, but would be perfectly fine if I showed up at as a B.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: Um and if I can do that and breathe and work on my medication and trust that I won't feel like this forever.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think that's all I can do right now.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: And then there are plenty of other tools that are helpful for down the road.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, so for example, my my therapist had a client who painted the sign that hung in her office that says, uh, your inner critic is a fucking liar.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: And right now I'm my inner critic isn't yelling at me.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: I've got other things yelling at me, but I know that that's part of at some point my inner critic will show up and I can remember to say, like, oh, you are lying to me.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: Right.
18:50
SPEAKER_02: And so things like that will be helpful down the road.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: You talk a lot about failure.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: Learning from failure, understanding it.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Also, how women understand it and respond to it differently.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Tell us all about that.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
19:09
SPEAKER_02: So um, this is my my latest book called Aim High and Bounce Back, a successful women's guide to rethinking and rising up from failure, which I co-authored with Fiona Macaulay, who's a professor of entrepreneurship at Georgetown.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: And we surveyed almost 1,100 women across 60 countries to try to understand what makes failure different for women than it is for men.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: And unsurprisingly, we found that women catastrophize more, personalize more, are more likely to see a failure of the system as a failure of themselves, and are likely to see a failure as part of their identity rather than an external event.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so we in putting this book together, we realize that there's almost a sort of a taxonomy or a separation of different kinds of failure that we found that people experience, um, including like concrete failure where the numbers don't lie, you you know it's clear that you failed, circumstantial failure where you didn't do anything wrong, but the circumstances just sort of conspired against you.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: Paralysis failure where you are scared to even start.
20:22
SPEAKER_02: You don't want to risk failing, so you don't even start something.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: Perceived failure where you know you're doing the right thing, but the world is calling it wrong, and then identity failure where you've you're doing something where you lose yourself, where you lose your values and part of the process.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so by helping people and women in particular identify what kind of failures they're actually experiencing, we can help them figure out how to aim high despite the fear of failure and how to bounce back after an inevitable failure happens.
20:56
SPEAKER_02: Because failure is the only way we succeed, and failure is the only way that we learn.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: And the most helpful thing is to treat it as data rather than it being um a part of your identity.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: So, but that's something we've been working on for the last few years and is seeming really to resonate with folks.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of more and more people I think are understanding that, you know, mistakes and failure are just they're gonna happen.
21:24
unknown: Yeah.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: Understanding that does not necessarily make it easier for people to wrap their heads around it and be able to sleep at night.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: In general, but again, especially for women, what are some of the tools and the mindset shifts and those little things that we can start to incorporate into our brain space?
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Even when there hasn't been an error and then when there has been to get through it.
21:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you know, before a failure happens, we have, you know, many of us have this incredible anxiety about failure happening, and often what happens.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Happens is we procrastinate, which often takes the form of perfectionism.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: So we wait for perfect starting conditions, perfect ending conditions for us to become more perfect before we take a step.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: And the irony is the longer you procrastinate, the more you are putting off the only cure for failure, which is to try something and either have it not work and you learn from it or have it succeed.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: But until you step into the ring, there is absolutely no opportunity for you to learn, improve, and get better.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: So we take a pretty firm stance around helping to manage the anxiety that comes, that tends to lead to procrastination and perfectionism and recognize that it is only through iterating that we get better around things.
22:53
SPEAKER_02: It's also really important to make failure a part of your success story.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: I promise anybody who is watching or listening to this, if they think about things that they have been successful at, they have likely only been successful at them because they have failed along the way and learned.
23:11
SPEAKER_02: And if you haven't, you're probably not taking big enough swings.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: So we invite people to sort of reverse engineer a brilliant failure.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: What is something that you got better at because you failed, you got difficult feedback around it, you had to uh try and try again, you had to fiddle with the variables, and chances are you will you will come to realize that um you learned more from that process than than from any other process.
23:38
SPEAKER_02: And then in terms of helping people bounce back from failures, we have a three-step plan in the book, um, which is about grounding, gathering, and then go.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: So grounding is once you've had a failure to pause, right?
23:53
SPEAKER_02: No sudden movements.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: Chances are if you've had a failure, you're probably gonna want to rush into solving it, but you can't really solve it while you're experiencing the pain and the grief of a failure.
24:05
SPEAKER_02: So don't take any sudden movements, pause, breathe, collect your thoughts, give yourself the opportunity to notice and name neutrally how you're feeling.
24:16
SPEAKER_02: So um, women tend to judge how they're feeling.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: So that might sound like I'm so frustrated that I'm so tired all the time, or I'm so angry that I'm still sad about this, right?
24:29
SPEAKER_02: That's so mean, right?
24:31
SPEAKER_02: That we're judging how we're feeling rather than giving ourselves the opportunity to say, I notice that I'm feeling really sad, or I notice that I'm feeling exhausted from having tried.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: So that's really the grounding part.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then the gather part is to um gather your people around you who would be most helpful to you right now, both in terms of people who would be empathetic and people who will stretch you, but not the kind of stretching where you have to take, you know, like a leave for 10 days after, but the kind of stretching that feels like you're you're getting a little bit bigger and a little bit bolder.
25:04
SPEAKER_02: So who are those people in your life that you can gather?
25:08
SPEAKER_02: What are the lessons that you need to gather from from this experimentation that you've done?
25:13
SPEAKER_02: And how can you use those as sources of learning rather than sources of shame?
25:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then how do you even recognize that if you've had a failure, only one of your identities has had a failure?
25:26
SPEAKER_02: So if I think about a proposal that I send out that gets rejected, okay, so maybe that's entrepreneur dev that got rejected today, but mom dev and wife dev and dogmand dev and sister dev and jewelry collector dev, all these other devs are doing just fine.
25:43
SPEAKER_02: And so how do you sort of weed out the identity that that got rejected from all the other identities that are still intact?
25:51
SPEAKER_02: And then the third is the go, right?
25:53
SPEAKER_02: Is to um put one foot in front of the other to fiddle with fewer variables, right?
26:00
SPEAKER_02: So rather than changing multiple variables, change one variable at a time so that you can really experiment and move forward.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, make sure that you ask for frequent feedback, make sure that you have people who are there to help you celebrate not just a different outcome, but the process and the progress along the way.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: My family is a big fan of Carvel ice cream cake.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: So every win gets celebrated with a Carvel ice cream cake.
26:29
SPEAKER_02: Um and so when you go, you want to make sure that you've set up mechanisms for feedback and mechanisms for celebration as well.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: I remember reading in The Likeability Trap that a lot of women, have you read it?
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: So you may remember there's a section where the author whose name I'm forgetting wrote about how a lot of women end up not climbing the ladder in the way that they want to, in part because they're so afraid of making the wrong decision that they just don't make any decision at all.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: And then you look at their male counterparts, and they're often making the wrong decision.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: What they end up later learning to have been, you know, the wrong or the suboptimal or decision, or or something they just had to change later because you can't know at the outset.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: And they didn't have any more data at the outset, they just went for it.
27:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: And and so one of the things we found when we were re researching our book is that there's this phenomenon that is often called the confidence gap.
27:32
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's part of what you might be pointing to.
27:34
SPEAKER_02: And what we found is it is less of a confidence gap.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: And in organizational life, it's more of a consequence gap.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: And the fact of the matter is that women suffer different consequences for their mistakes than men do.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, and if you are a woman of a marginalized population, right?
27:53
SPEAKER_02: So, for example, if you are a black woman and you have a failure, it is highly unlikely that another black woman will be woman will be put in that role.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: So the consequences of failure are much higher, um, which then sort of leads back into a confidence gap, which is if I fail, am I going to ruin this for other women or other women of color or you know, other women who have, you know, other other factors that contribute to their diversity?
28:22
SPEAKER_02: And that's a pretty, that's a pretty scary thing to be a part of.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what can leaders who are you know in the roles where they would be effectively doling out the consequences, what can they do to help make it a more comfortable place for, for example, women and women who are communities?
28:44
SPEAKER_02: On one hand, right, you want to think about giving women mentoring opportunities, sponsorship opportunities.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: And we know that women tend to be over-mentored and under-sponsored.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: So sponsoring women is um is a really, really helpful tool.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, something else that you want to do is to sort of put your money where your mouth is.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: If you are saying that you've got um, you know, a culture of innovation, a culture of risk taking, a culture of learning, that means that you also need to embrace a culture of failing.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: You cannot have one without the other.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: And so you need to make it okay to fail.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: You need to articulate what kinds of failures are, you know, acceptable learning failures and what kinds of failures, you know, might not be.
29:29
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, one of our goals for this book was to have women speaking more openly and honestly about their own failures.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: And so if you're a leader, speak openly and honestly about the failures that you have made and not the kind of BS failures that you might, you know, share in a job interview, like my failure was that I cared too much or I paid too much attention to details.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: No, we mean the big failures.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: We want to hear about it.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: We want to know how you bounced back, we want to hear the ugly parts, the sad parts, the hard parts, and let us know what you did and how you survived those failures.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: And now you've made me decide to host a wellness esquire, I don't know, workshop podcast group podcast something where women are gonna come together and talk about that.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: Men can join too.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: And I have a great book to recommend.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I actually I just I'm so excited about this.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: I just shared with my team a mistakes policy for my law firm.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: What is your mistakes policy?
30:34
SPEAKER_00: It starts with saying, actually, I'll share it with you, and I'd love to get your insights because you have you know the the interest and the time.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: It starts with, hey guys, we're gonna make mistakes.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: It's a bummer.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: We try really hard to not make them, but they will happen.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's gonna, you know, the mistake will occur because we're overworked, we're you know, stretched too thin, and we need to adjust something around bandwidth and you know that sort of category.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's gonna happen because maybe we're trying something new and now we've learned something, and you know, and then the process is gonna include how do we how do we set up a process so that no one's afraid to come forward and say, Yeah, I made a mistake?
31:16
SPEAKER_00: There's an understanding of different tiers of mistakes, you know, did it work to the client?
31:21
SPEAKER_00: Does the client need to be you know uh informed about it?
31:25
SPEAKER_00: How do we handle it internally?
31:27
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
31:28
SPEAKER_00: Who handles it?
31:30
SPEAKER_00: How do we do that together in a way that is supportive and you know, is a learning experience?
31:36
SPEAKER_00: How do we not make that same mistake again?
31:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and how do we just move forward?
31:40
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of what led to that was, you know, I'm I'm I talked about, you know, I haven't always been so kind to myself.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: And so I went through, you know, most of my life as a maladaptive perfectionist, which is a part of what I learned from one of my absolute favorite books ever, the uh perfectionist guide to losing control, and recently evolved into a most of the time adaptive perfectionist.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: But for so many years, I was so afraid of making any mistake that I, I mean, it did all the things that you talked about, I just wouldn't do because I was too afraid.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: And if I did make a mistake, I was so mortified more to myself than even the outside world, that too, but it was so internal that I couldn't face it and learn from it.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: So I just, you know, wanted to hide.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: And so much of my more recent success and evolution has come from I I just do a lot and I don't wait until perfection, and I just go out there and I'm okay with you know making mistakes and then fixing them and learning from them.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: But that has been a process.
32:44
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it sounds it.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: It absolutely sounds it.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: And uh many people have not even started that process yet.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: So I give you tremendous kudos for taking those steps.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: It it's so rewarding.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, so yeah, what if we all lived more that way and gave each other the space and the you know, to to be able to make the mistakes and take all of the lessons that you're sharing and actually apply them and then rise up?
33:13
SPEAKER_00: So speaking of rising up, what are some of the other ways that people in general, but again, specifically, you know, women in particular, kind of shoot themselves in the foot?
33:25
SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness, how long do we have?
33:28
SPEAKER_02: Um comparison, right?
33:31
SPEAKER_02: So uh comparison, thinking that everybody else has it better, easier, more.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: Um I I think that is uh a tremendous way in which we shoot ourselves in the foot.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: And it is so clear that none of us have any idea what's going on inside anybody else's life or work or relationship.
33:50
SPEAKER_02: We just can't know and we don't know, even if you think somebody is telling you.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: Um so I think comparison is um a great one.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: I think we hold the bar too low when we should hold it higher and hold the bar too high when we should be uh kinder and more generous with ourselves.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: As I mentioned before, we judge our emotions.
34:11
SPEAKER_02: So we get angry or frustrated with ourselves for feeling how we feel, as opposed to just saying, you know, emotions are data.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: So let me look at the data.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling tired, I'm feeling frustrated.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: That's data.
34:24
SPEAKER_02: What's going on here?
34:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, putting everybody else before ourselves.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I this could be its own hour, but um, there are lots of different ways that the the leaders who I work with, who are women, um, are shooting themselves in the foot.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned sometimes we're the bar, we're holding the bar too low when we should raise it.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we're, you know, raising it too high when we should lower it.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: How how do we know the difference?
34:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, this audience is it's a bunch of high performers.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: We are ambitious.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: We want all of the gold stars.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when you talked earlier about even one of your your kind of mechanisms for managing anxiety, your anxiety and OCD is recognizing when this can be a B.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: So I I think one of the ways that I approach this, and one of the ways that I encourage my clients to approach this is I I make sure that my clients can really articulate what their core values are.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so for mine, my core values are achievement, fun, adventure, learning, integration.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm sure there are a couple more there.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: Um, and when I start to feel overwhelmed, like maybe everything feels like it needs to be a high bar for me right now, and that is starting to make me feel a little bit shaky or uncomfortable, um, I go back to my list of values and I say, what value is getting trampled right now?
35:58
SPEAKER_02: Because you tend to feel a little shaky when something you you value is is getting ignored or bumped up against.
36:04
SPEAKER_02: And for me, it is often the value of fun.
36:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, I mean, fun is probably my number one value.
36:11
SPEAKER_02: And if I start to feel uncomfortable, I go back and I see, okay, what value isn't being honored?
36:18
SPEAKER_02: And so if fun isn't being honored, it's sometimes a reminder that I need to add a little fun.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes adding a little fun turns the heat down a little bit.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it doesn't.
36:29
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've had incredibly impressive things that I've worked on that were also fun.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but then I'll also know that if I'm working on something and feeling a little shaky, maybe my value around accomplishment isn't being honored.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: And I need to raise the bar for myself so that this really, I feel really impressed by me, not worrying about what other people think, but worried about what I think in terms of a sense of achievement or accomplishment.
36:56
SPEAKER_02: So always having your core values top of mind and recognizing that when something feels off, chances are there's a value that's getting pushed to the back or has some friction around it and see what that is.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: Do you often find that leaders in you know really high-level roles that they've identified what their core values are?
37:18
SPEAKER_00: Is that one of the is that sometimes a difference between what let leads someone to become a leader in the way that we kind of can tell, you know, from the outside that someone's in a leadership position?
37:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think what the the leaders that I've worked with do is they know their core values, they know the organization's values, they understand the values of the people that they're leading, and they recognize that there will be values mismatches.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: There's there's just no way to, you know, lead a team of 5,000 people and have everybody's values and the organization's values and your values be aligned.
37:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, but to be able to communicate in a way that that this is that there might be a temporary misalignment, um, to over-communicate when things will get back on track, and to also let people know that if you feel like what's important to you isn't getting met here, speak up, right?
38:12
SPEAKER_02: I can't be a mind reader for everyone, but speak up.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: And if we can figure out a way to make it work, we will.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: And if not, you are you are encouraged to look for something that's more aligned with your values, and they're not afraid to have those conversations.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: How do you teach people who are afraid to have these kinds of conversations or any for you know, conversation that they feel like maybe there's conflict or for whatever reason it's not an easy one?
38:37
SPEAKER_00: How do you teach have those hard conversations?
38:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you know, my operating definition of conflict is that it's a disagreement or a difference of opinion or perspective.
38:48
SPEAKER_02: And if you think about how many times a day you are having a disagreement or a difference of opinion or perspective, chances are it's every day, right?
38:58
SPEAKER_02: Every single day I'm having a disagreement or a difference of opinion or perspective.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: It could be what are we having for dinner?
39:03
SPEAKER_02: The goal is to actually normalize healthy conflict, productive conflict.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: And a productive conflict is one that attends to both an outcome and a relationship, right?
39:15
SPEAKER_02: We got something done and the relationship feels healthy or recoverable, right?
39:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and one of the things that I encourage people to do is to do the work on the relationship before you need to have a hard conversation.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: So this is a model, um, I want to say it's probably Stephen Covey, but I'm not entirely uh positive.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: But the idea of building a relationship bank account, that everything you say and do with another person puts either deposits into the relationship bank account that build trust or withdraw things from it, which erode trust.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: And if you and I have spent the time putting deposits into each other's relationship bank accounts, when the time comes that we have to have a hard conversation, there's enough of a balance built up in our relationship that it can take something that feels like a withdrawal.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: How do you guide, I mean, high performers in any industry, but especially in law?
40:13
SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of so many lawyers feel like, well, there's no time to build relationships.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm just working nonstop.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: And maybe, you know, there's adversarial relationships between colleagues and people who are it's often uncomfortable to build authentic, vulnerable relationships in settings.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: But without that, it's hard to do what you're talking about.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
40:37
SPEAKER_02: And I would say two things.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: I would say number one is you're building relationships whether you intend to or not, right?
40:43
SPEAKER_02: So you are building a relationship regardless of how much time, energy, and and intentionality you're putting into it, you are building one.
40:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, if you're not putting time, energy, and intentionality into it, you're probably not building a very strong or healthy one.
40:58
SPEAKER_02: And what I have found is that high achieving people make time for the things that matter.
41:05
SPEAKER_02: And so if you decide it matters, you will then also decide to find the time.
41:11
SPEAKER_02: You just will.
41:12
SPEAKER_02: Simple.
41:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, not easy, yes, simple.
41:17
SPEAKER_02: Not easy.
41:17
SPEAKER_02: Yes, simple, but not easy.
41:20
SPEAKER_02: But um, if you decide that this feels important from a short-term perspective and a long-term perspective, um, and including like a career perspective, then you will figure out how to make it happen.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: How would you guide someone to learn how to own the room?
41:40
SPEAKER_02: So I want to be thoughtful that owning the room doesn't mean at the exclusion of other people owning it too.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: No, I'm thinking about taking up the space that someone deserves.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: And often, you know, we're a lot of this conversation we're talking generically, but also especially women, because so many women in particular, you know, we we I have often felt this way.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, I can find ways to make myself smaller.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Most of us have those, you know, those stories.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:18
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
42:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think part of the story is if I own the room, I'm crowding other people out.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: So I I want you to think of it like part timeshare.
42:26
SPEAKER_02: You have multiple owners, right?
42:29
SPEAKER_02: Um and so, yeah, and so, you know, with as with anything, your mindset drives your behaviors, which drives your outcomes.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: So you have to start by believing that you have something of value to add.
42:46
SPEAKER_02: And I I recently heard, I I wish I could remember where I heard this, but I recently heard um of a strategy to combat imposter syndrome that said basically said, if my belief is that um I don't know enough, I'm not smart enough, I don't have the authority here, am I bold enough to believe that everybody else is an idiot and I've been fooling them all along?
43:09
SPEAKER_02: Right?
43:09
SPEAKER_02: I love that perspective shift, right?
43:11
SPEAKER_02: Do I believe that everybody else is so dumb and I've been managing to just fool everyone?
43:18
SPEAKER_02: And most people would believe that the people that they're surrounded by feel intimidating because they're not dumb, right?
43:25
SPEAKER_02: So if I believe that I'm surrounded by relatively smart cookies, then one of the ways in which they must be smart is smart about me.
43:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that they must believe that I have something of value to add.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: So, what would it be like for me to believe even 2% of that, that I've got something to add that I can contribute here, and then contribute it and be open to the feedback about how other people see it.
43:49
SPEAKER_02: I think far too many people think owning the room is, you know, sort of taking up all the oxygen and not leaving room for other people's contributions.
43:57
SPEAKER_02: But if you believe that you have something of value to add, And if you don't, please see a therapist.
44:03
SPEAKER_02: Like I really genuinely mean if you are of the belief that you have nothing of value to add to work or to life, that's a really, really hard and scary way to live, and you don't have to live like that.
44:16
SPEAKER_02: But if you can say, okay, I believe that I have something of value to add, even if it's in a particular matter, right?
44:23
SPEAKER_02: Even if it's with a particular client or with a particular partner, lean into that.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, an example that I'm thinking about now is, and maybe it's less about owning the room, but more the way to think about it is owning your voice.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: So I remember, um, this was a few years ago, I remember being on a case, and I was, it had been going on for a while, I was new to it, and I decided, you know, I'm I'm new, so I'm gonna keep my mouth shut because I don't want to, you know, repeat anything that's already been discussed, and I'll I'll get myself up to speed on my own time.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: And I'm the new person, so I don't want to sound stupid.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: And then I listened to the call, and I was amazed when I really listened carefully at how much some of the others on the call were not saying.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: Or with so much confidence and not saying a lot of substance.
45:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: And I, after that call, I processed that.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: I realized I was on a call with a bunch of men who were speaking with.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: And I I actually was more of an expert on the topic and I had a lot to say.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: And so that was the last time I went into a meeting in that way, and afterwards just shifted my perspective on oh, I know what I'm talking about.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm new.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's okay.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I have a different way of communicating.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: That's also okay.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: But it took time for me, and it and it, you know, took some real processing for me to recognize, oh, I can just because I'm the most, you know, whether it's you're the most junior on the call, you're new, yeah, something that you haven't, you know, maybe you're an expert in other things, but you've never done this area before.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: I think so many of us can relate to, well, what if I sound stupid?
46:10
SPEAKER_00: What if I say the wrong thing?
46:12
SPEAKER_00: Or just something about discomfort of, you know, speaking up in a group with other people.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're just not a calm communicator.
46:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
46:22
SPEAKER_02: And that's a big part of the coaching work that I do is helping people feel more confident, sound more confident, uh, be more confident, uh, so that other people take them seriously.
46:33
SPEAKER_02: Because we we deserve that.
46:34
SPEAKER_02: We've, if you're a lawyer, you've put in a lot of work and a lot of money uh to get to where you are.
46:39
SPEAKER_02: You deserve to believe in your capabilities.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: What's one tip that you would give someone who feels like maybe they're not so articulate or they're not comfortable speaking up, you know, something about speech or yeah, I would say ask for feedback.
46:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean, and and I know that in law firms, feedback is often scarce, right?
47:01
SPEAKER_02: You'll get feedback on a on a matter or a project, but but maybe a little less developmental feedback.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: But I would take, you know, whoever you is is the person who is managing you and say something that I want to get better at is speaking up in front of groups, or something I want to get better at is putting a, you know, a disagreement out there or a different perspective out there.
47:21
SPEAKER_02: What have you noticed about what I'm doing?
47:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, and this is something that I'd like to get better at.
47:27
SPEAKER_02: So sometimes we believe that we are behaving in alignment with our thinking, and sometimes it's not the case.
47:34
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we may be coming across quite differently than how we think, for better or for worse.
47:39
SPEAKER_02: So I would gather that feedback.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: Are there general tips that you you offer or that you think about for yourself as a powerful communicator about how to frame an answer, how to frame a story, and how to sort of prepare the brain to articulate well what you're trying to convey?
47:58
SPEAKER_02: Yes, but I think it's a whole separate interview.
48:01
SPEAKER_02: It's like it's hours, it's hours long of stuff.
48:04
SPEAKER_02: So I'd love to be able to answer that, and I don't think I can answer it in a short amount of time.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: Understood.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's even a great tip because I think even just being able to say, yes, but that's not the right thing for now is powerful.
48:18
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of us do.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: Just being able to say, yep, but not now, can't do it.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: Or this comes, this is beyond the scope of what I'm able to offer for free within this price range.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, name your guardrail.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: Name the guardrail.
48:35
SPEAKER_00: Yep, beautifully put.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: Are there other tips, practices that you do feel comfortable, you know, capturing that you find that a lot of women, you know, can kind of learn from pretty quickly, with um in terms of just like understanding how to go from not feeling like a leader to stepping into a leadership role, whether it's a formal leadership role or or not.
49:05
SPEAKER_02: So I would I would imagine that most of us have a mental picture of what a leader looks like.
49:12
SPEAKER_02: And the research shows that it looks like a man.
49:14
SPEAKER_02: From both men and women, a leader looks like a man.
49:18
SPEAKER_02: And so I would invite, if I were working with uh someone in a coaching relationship, I would spend a little uh time unpacking what is your vision of what a leader looks like.
49:29
SPEAKER_02: Where did that come from?
49:31
SPEAKER_02: How did you come up with that story?
49:34
SPEAKER_02: How would you want to look as a leader?
49:36
SPEAKER_02: Because leaders are not cookie cutter, leadership is as individual as the person in its skin, and help somebody create a um a persona of the kind of leader they want to be rather than trying to fit a description um that somebody that they might have made up or that somebody else has.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: Love it.
49:58
SPEAKER_02: Is there do you have a favorite topic that you teach that you would want women, women and anyone, but again, we're really focusing a lot on women, uh, to understand about your just your general area of expertise, which yeah, I would say anything related to uh presentation skills and difficult conversations, um, whether that difficult conversation is speaking up, whether it's giving feedback, asking for feedback, uh trying to build trust in a in a low trust culture, this is really where I love to come in and help people see a little light at the end of the tunnel.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: And you you work with individuals and and I mean groups, right?
50:42
SPEAKER_02: Do you yes, I do group training.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: Yep, I do keynotes, retreats, uh uh webinars, workshops, and one-on-one coaching.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for spending your time with me and sharing your thank you so much.
50:56
SPEAKER_00: It was really a pleasure.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: Oh, good.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: Have a wonderful rest of your day.
51:03
SPEAKER_02: Thank you to you as well.
51:05
SPEAKER_02: Enjoy.
51:06
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
51:06
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed.
51:12
SPEAKER_00: Please be sure to check out the links in the show notes and to rate and subscribe the podcast.
51:17
SPEAKER_00: I hope you have a wonderful day and please remember to be kind to yourself.