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Credit File Contradiction: Why is Each Different? · Market Pulse

• 0:02
  Welcome to a special edition of Market Pulse from Equifax,
• 0:05
  where we break down what's shaping the mortgage industry today and what happens
• 0:09
  next.
• 0:15
  Hi, I am Clayton Collins, CEO at HousingWire,
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  and we are here MBA Annual 2025 for a pretty legendary
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  conversation. Mm-Hmm . This may be the first time,
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  at least my first time,
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  bringing together leaders from the three nationwide consumer reporting agencies
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  to talk about what's changing in data in the mortgage process. Joel, Michelle,
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  Satyan, thank you so much for joining us today. So, Joel,
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  I want to kick off with you with your view on why data
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  is so important in today's mortgage ecosystem and and how you're thinking about
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  the landscape that is just the talk of the town here at NBA Annual in 2025.
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  Well,
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  first I want to say very much thank you so much Satyan and Michelle for joining
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  us. I think it's important for everybody to know we are vicious competitors.
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  , I mean, outside of this time right here,
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  we're gonna fight to earn our business with each and every customer.
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  And we all come to the table with our unique offerings and our unique
• 1:11
  differentiators. So that's, that's the first thing I want people to realize.
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  But more important, all of us are here today because we actually stand united,
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  that more data is, is better for the consumer.
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  And that starts with all three credit reports. Yep.
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  And then that expands out on all the differentiated things that all three of our
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  organizations are doing to bring to the industry with the single objective of
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  how do we help more people qualify for the loan? That's what it's really about,
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  where there's so much conversation about how do we reduce data?
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  That's how you eliminate people.
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  We're looking at an inclusive approach of how do we get more people qualified
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  today. So I think we all share that.
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  And the fact that we're all sitting here together is representative of that
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  united goal.
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  Michelle, do you feel the same way? Vicious competitors?
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  Well, yeah, I can agree more , I mean all day, every day.
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  And I totally agree. Also, our mission is financial inclusion for all.
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  And so we spend all day, every day not just competing with these guys,
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  but also working really hard to make sure that we can fairly represent all
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  consumers and give everybody the chance to home ownership if that's what they
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  want.
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  Alright. Sati, on the topic of vicious competition,
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  it's been disclosed by each of you that there are major differences between
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  your, your credit files and the data you report.
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  Can you jump in and give us a view on the,
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  the differences that you see between the data and, you know,
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  start with your organization TransUnion? Sure.
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  Yeah. Thanks. you know, I think one, one important fact when it comes to the,
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  the three national bureaus is we, we don't see each other's file,
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  which make that, which makes that an even harder competitive landscape, right?
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  I cannot inspect Michelle's file or Joel's file.
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  So I really have to work with my teams to,
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  to do what we think is the best thing to add to our, our our bureau data. And,
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  and it's something that, you know, for those that aren't aware, we have,
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  you know, I, I, I can speak to myself, you know,
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  me and my team are the face of the mortgage business and also the auto business,
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  but we have large amounts of people whose job in is every day,
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  day in and day out to guide source more information, more data on the file.
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  And one thing I want to add here is
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  the file is just becoming more and more diverse.
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  Like we can talk about this a little bit more, but there are so many new,
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  different unique financial lending products that I think the world right now is
• 3:26
  as, as differentiated as a file as we've ever seen.
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  What's an example of like these, the,
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  the new data capabilities or features of the file?
• 3:34
  Sure. So for one example would be the buy now pay later lending product.
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  Okay. So the affirms of the world,
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  we work through CDI and and industry organizations to, to talk about how,
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  how to get something standard on that on the file.
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  But at the same time it's really up to the furnishers to decide when,
• 3:53
  how much and to whom they furnish. And so again,
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  we compete very ferociously about getting those difference getting as much data
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  as we can on our reports.
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  Yeah, Michelle?
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  Yeah, no, absolutely.
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  The goal is to give as much representation to consumers as we can.
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  And so whether that's through rental payment history,
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  whether it's through how consumers manage their cash flow,
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  whether it's through alternative financial services,
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  whether they be short term loans or things like buy now, pay later,
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  like Satya was just talking about. It's, I agree.
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  Like the files are more diverse now probably than they've ever been.
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  I I think about it from overall contributors. If you think about five,
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  10 years ago,
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  the number of people contributing data to a credit file today has gone up three
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  x. Yeah. And it's all of the things that, that my peers here are talking about.
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  It's different type of contributors. And so you have the,
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  not only the difference in financial contributors,
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  but then you also have the additional data around are they paying rent,
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  like Michelle said,
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  or do they have utility information that we can add because the new scores will
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  take that into account and help improve that look of the customer.
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  These may be differentiators that,
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  that you understand and that mortgage lenders may understand,
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  but consumers likely not.
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  They consumers probably have a very little or or no recognition of what the
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  difference between Experian, Equifax, and TransUnion is.
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  And that probably goes for a lot of loan originators and,
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  and real estate agents and other people who advise consumers.
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  How do we take a step forward in consumer education for them to understand why
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  three consumer reporting agencies exist and,
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  and how they aid in in credit. Joel, if you want to kick us off there, well.
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  Sure. It, it all comes down to education. And I think if, you know,
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  one of the things you hear about in the mortgage industry today is the shopping
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  behavior Yep. And how conversions have dropped.
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  Part of that is because of a lot more applications for folks that are just
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  looking to see whether they app they can apply or qualify and or if they could
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  save a few bucks on a refi, part of that could be addressed through education.
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  The other part is that getting those people that get denied the first time
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  enough education on how to improve their score and their trade lines and those
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  type of things to be able to qualify. And it all comes down to the data.
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  You know, without the data, you don't have a score and without a score,
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  you don't go anywhere in the process.
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  We talked a little bit yesterday on one of our sessions about one of my children
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  that, you know, would love to buy a house and,
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  and now his dad needs to help him get better about having credit history so he
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  can do, so.
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  If your, if your children need education, then what, what the rest of.
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  Us to get, my goal is by the end of this session,
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  we're gonna get him alone . But anyway,
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  it's that education to help him understand what he needed to do Yeah.
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  To get those additional trade lunch so that he had a score.
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  So he would be considered.
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  Yeah. You know, I'd jump in and say yeah, I can speak for TransUnion.
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  I think this exists with all the bureaus is, is it's,
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  it's Michelle's comment earlier.
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  It's about getting access to credit access to homes. You know,
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  TransUnion works a lot on, on that. Consumer education, free credit scores,
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  download our app, right? To be able to,
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  to really understand what a consumer can do to change and what changes they can
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  make to to make themselves mortgage eligible. Right.
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  And so there's a lot of education there that consumers do need to continue to
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  build on. And again,
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  with this proliferation of different products,
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  you think about a younger generation and maybe their first experience with
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  credit is, you know, an a firm loan, right? To understand what does that mean?
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  What does that mean to go apply for a credit card? There's a,
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  there's a lot of education that consumers need, but at the end of the day,
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  this was a comment that was made in a session earlier yesterday.
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  The credit score and mortgage is, is,
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  I just think of that as like the doorknob to get in. It's just the front door.
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  It's actually the data that we've been talking about that is used for the
• 7:39
  underwriting. The GSEs don't actually use a score in their underwriting.
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  All they use is the data and the trend data that was pioneered about a decade
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  ago. Right? Which is much more data that's used in the traditional score today.
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  So it's all about that data that's in the score. And again,
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  the data is different across the bureaus.
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  If consumers have never had more access to,
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  to content and information about the mortgage process or the lending process or
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  their own credit data, why are conversion rate's low?
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  So like, if consumers can go, like, seek information about their,
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  their credit score and and financial profile,
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  why are they going to lenders to to test the waters if they could potentially
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  get that knowledge on their own?
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  Well, I think that consumers are shopping, right? Yeah. Like they do for any,
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  which is a good thing. Product, it's a great thing.
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  But it's tough for lenders.
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  It, it is, it,
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  it means that the lenders have to have processes in place to be able to do that
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  evaluation fairly quickly.
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  And there's been a lot of tools that have emerged over the last several years
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  that help pre-qualify a consumer without posting a hard inquiry to their report
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  that allow the lender to have kind of like a quick look into whether somebody's
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  probably gonna qualify or not. And that goes beyond credit data, by the way.
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  There's income and employment and other solutions that go into deciding whether
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  you're gonna be able to underwrite a mortgage loan for somebody that you can
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  look at kind of before you go through the full process. I,
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  I totally agree with you. In fact, Bob, yesterday in the opening session,
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  I wrote down a quote, he said,
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  the supreme irony is that Fannie and Freddie do not use the credit scores.
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  They get data, and then desktop underwriter and loan processor do their thing.
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  The credit score is used for price.
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  And I think one of the things we're not talking about enough is, well,
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  first of all, I couldn't agree with him more on that. Second of all,
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  it's not just the underlying data. It's the innovation in the technology,
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  in the security, in the consumer support,
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  and how we answer questions for consumers, how we educate consumers,
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  the tools that we give them,
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  the places that we go to be able to communicate with them in a way that's
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  meaningful. For example, Experian has a, a partnership I'm super,
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  super involved in and proud of with home free USA that helps with black and
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  brown communities.
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  And getting the word out through means that really resonate with folks.
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  It's about a lot more than data or a score.
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  It's about how you manage it, how you educate about it,
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  how you get it out there into the world.
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  You mentioned innovation innovation is, is clearly something that's happening.
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  But in the same sentence here at MBA annual people are talking about regulation.
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  Yeah. Do you see regulation as something that's pushing forward innovation or,
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  or holding it back?
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  Like what is this relationship between those two really important topics?
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  I mean, the three of us have lived in a world where you have to innovate.
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  I mean, financial services is one of the most highly regulated industries. Yeah,
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  absolutely. Out there. Absolutely. And rightfully so, right? Rightfully so.
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  So the three,
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  our three companies have had to innovate within that infrastructure since we
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  started. I do think that sometimes regulation and or,
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  you know, some of the folks who oversee the industry can help that along,
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  for instance, the FHFA's Yep.
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  Adoption of an enablement of scores like Vantage 4.0 or more modern
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  scores just in general that take into account the data and the processes and
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  everything else that we've been talking about here today. That's gonna help.
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  Because the GSEs needed to be able to accept scores that they weren't
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  accepting before. And so there are times when regulation prompts it.
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  You've seen all three of us put some of that innovation,
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  some of that value add back into the industry very publicly and committing to do
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  that on our investment to help the industry move forward.
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  Can you share what's the most important innovation that Equifax is bringing
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  forward right.
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  Now? Yeah. So from our perspective,
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  we have a couple of data repositories that are unique,
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  telco and utility and,
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  and that type of pay service history.
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  The other is our work number.
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  And so we've taken elements from both of those product sets thanks to some of
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  the, the work we've done on transformation.
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  And we're making that available with the credit for the exact thing that
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  Michelle was referring to.
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  Allow people to make better decisions right at application before they spend all
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  of the money to get somebody to a close.
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  In the spirit of fierce competition.
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  I'll let Michelle and Satya absolutely share their innovation as well.
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  Absolutely. You want to jump in? Yeah.
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  Sure. So, you know, we,
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  we announced that we're gonna continue to add more of that alternative data into
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  the mortgage credit file rental. I mean, I,
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  I want to just build on what Michelle mentioned. You know,
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  the leadership from Director Pulte and the FHFA to advance the adoption of
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  scores, like Vantage score. One of the big,
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  I think one of his follow up messages on X was about now using rental trade
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  lines and that being part of, part of what homeowners can, can rely on. So,
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  you know, we want to double down on that,
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  add more of those rental trade lines to, to, to the file as well.
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  And then you know, short,
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  short term lending is another data set that we invested in a few years ago.
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  You know, we have research that shows that,
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  especially for that marginal consumer,
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  maybe the FHA or the first time home buyer,
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  those consumers that are under a six 20 or or six 50 a short term
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  lending tray line actually is positive for them. It's not a negative signal,
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  it's a positive signal. 'cause Again, it could be the first time they have,
• 12:48
  they're interacting with credit. So again,
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  we want to help achieve that mission of getting people into homes safely.
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  And then in an expanded way.
• 12:57
  Yeah. And in some, I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah.
• 12:59
  Michelle's turn.
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  Transition.
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  Keeps coming out.
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  Back guys.
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  I totally agree.
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  Experian invested in one of the largest rental databases in the country 10 or 15
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  years ago called Rent Bureau.
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  But we had to go beyond that because so many folks rent from individual
• 13:16
  landlords or, you know, not a property management company. Right.
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  And so we innovated with things like Boost,
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  which allows consumers to work with their bank account to be able to show
• 13:27
  they're paying their rent on time every month and permission it themselves into
• 13:31
  the file. We've got relationships with 80 million people in the United States.
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  And to get them to opt into reporting that,
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  or utility information or how they pay their Netflix account and everything can
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  really, really create a file where one didn't exist before.
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  Our most recent innovation that we just launched fairly recently is cashflow
• 13:49
  attributes and scores so that lenders can augment traditional credit
• 13:54
  debt repayment with how somebody's actually managing their money on a month to
• 13:59
  month basis.
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  And that augments and adds a tremendous amount of value to who you might want to
• 14:03
  lend to and how responsibly they're gonna pay you back. Okay.
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  And one of the things I was gonna build on,
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  what Satyan said I think is important is and what Michelle said,
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  we've competed really hard in the consumer finance space that loves more data.
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  They want all these things we've been talking about. The, you know,
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  the announcement by Director Pulte about Vantage kind of opened the door to a
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  lot of people in the industry learning maybe for the first time, wait,
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  there's more data that could be here versus what we've been using for a number
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  of years. Yeah. So that door has been open now,
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  and I think that's really valuable to the mortgage industry to start realizing
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  what else is out there.
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  I think that's important, what you just said.
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  That door has been opened in the mortgage industry mm-hmm .
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  It's been open in almost another credit categories,
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  other lending category for decades.
• 14:50
  Yep. That's right.
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  And I think that's the point of we've had to compete the market enables us to
• 14:54
  compete. It forces us to compete. And we have been competing. And you know,
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  I think all of us have stories of, you know, what acquisitions have we made,
• 15:02
  which angle do we want to compete on? And, and it's, it's, again,
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  it's every day that we go to work and think about how do we differentiate it.
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  It.
• 15:09
  Feels like more data is always something that, that people want.
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  But one of the trends and the talking points I've hear,
• 15:15
  heard here at MBA annual is the potential move from tri merge to a,
• 15:19
  a buy merge or even situations where a single report could be the solution for
• 15:23
  lenders. That's kind of a move away, the move to, to less data. I,
• 15:28
  I have a feeling that's something lenders are, are pretty curious about. Like,
• 15:31
  is this, is this coming up the pipe? What, what are,
• 15:33
  what are the hurdles toward moving toward a buy merge and what might some of the
• 15:36
  risks be?
• 15:38
  You're looking at me. Yeah. I, I'll be happy to jump in.
• 15:40
  So there has been a lot of talk about that this week. And you know,
• 15:44
  in some cases that's exciting.
• 15:46
  In some cases I'd love to see the dialogue maybe shift a little more to how do
• 15:49
  we help more,
• 15:50
  more people actually get into homes versus a little bit of the economics on the
• 15:55
  credit side. But happy to have that dialogue.
• 15:58
  I think it's a very slippery slope. And so I'll actually start in non-mortgage.
• 16:02
  There's a lot of big lenders in today's world that pull three credit files
• 16:07
  or two credit files in the auto space,
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  or even the credit card space because they believe that there's differences and
• 16:13
  they want to see those differences because they believe it gives them a
• 16:16
  competitive edge in making better decisions and pricing their products more
• 16:20
  aggressively. So that is someone that has total choice.
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  They could go with no credit score, no credit file,
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  and they're choosing to buy three.
• 16:27
  And we're seeing that more and more in the industry when it comes to mortgage.
• 16:32
  It really comes to the lost applications. The,
• 16:35
  the whole drive is an economic drive. Yeah.
• 16:38
  If we're talking about what is the best way to get consumers into homes and to
• 16:42
  qualify more consumers, it is more data.
• 16:44
  And I haven't heard anybody really give a solid argument as why that's not true.
• 16:49
  All of the arguments I've heard have been very much financially based,
• 16:52
  which I respect.
• 16:53
  And I think that all of us are working together with the different options to
• 16:56
  say, how do we help upfront on the shopping behavior Yeah.
• 17:02
  To, to control cost a little bit more. But we,
• 17:04
  we maintain that very proven safety and soundness on the back end
• 17:09
  so that the consumer gets the best price possible and that the American taxpayer
• 17:14
  is backing good quality loans.
• 17:16
  And it's all ties back to, for a score that scores more people, that,
• 17:20
  that takes account for all of this data that we just talked about. Yep.
• 17:24
  And so we, I think all of us understand that,
• 17:26
  that kind of financial conversation. One of the things, and again,
• 17:31
  this came up as well yesterday from Stan, from from Freedom Mortgage,
• 17:34
  thought he made a great point of the US housing system is truly the envy
• 17:39
  of the world, right? It's, it's a,
• 17:41
  it's kind of a remarkable way to match capital with people looking to buy a home
• 17:45
  and getting to a home in a very efficient and a very safe way. Right?
• 17:49
  And a safe way to get people. Now what is, you know,
• 17:52
  the average mortgage is well over $400,000.
• 17:54
  You're getting up to a million dollar mortgages, you know, to, to pay maybe 10,
• 17:59
  $15 more for credit data to keep that system going seems like,
• 18:03
  like it's worth it.
• 18:05
  Yeah. I think that, you know, well, yeah, go ahead. You were about to.
• 18:10
  No, I wasn't. I was, I was I mumbled? Well set . Oh.
• 18:13
  . Yeah. Okay. I think that,
• 18:17
  I think that it's an interesting time to contemplate reducing the amount of data
• 18:21
  that you use to make decisions.
• 18:23
  'cause There was so much change going on in this industry right now in mortgage
• 18:28
  in general, but certainly with regard to how you evaluate risk,
• 18:32
  you've got everything from technology changes and AI factoring into decisions
• 18:36
  and everything else to introduce reducing the amount of data that you take in to
• 18:41
  how you've known decisions have been made for the last 20 years or so.
• 18:46
  I think that timing is really interesting.
• 18:49
  I mean,
• 18:49
  I think the timing is tied around coming out of a pretty challenging time period
• 18:53
  for the industry, and people are, are hunting for margin.
• 18:56
  And I think Director Ty's commentary on,
• 18:58
  on x and bringing competition to the market, he, he's very price focused. I,
• 19:03
  I think with the lens of benefiting the consumer and and how,
• 19:06
  and some of these costs do flow to the consumer. Yeah.
• 19:09
  I, I would like to comment though, building on this. In today's world,
• 19:13
  the lender has the ability,
• 19:15
  the choice to have one credit bureau to bring that in and to start the
• 19:18
  underwriting process.
• 19:19
  They're not required to have all three until later in the process. Yeah.
• 19:23
  But what we see from many lenders is they've had that bad experience for a
• 19:28
  borrower that they got closer to close, got the other credit scores,
• 19:31
  and they had to go back to that borrower and change the rate.
• 19:34
  And that's a bad experience for the borrower.
• 19:36
  It's a bad experience for the lender. And that sometimes results in a lost loan.
• 19:40
  So we see people voluntarily saying,
• 19:43
  as soon as I know somebody qualifies and they show me any sign,
• 19:45
  I'm gonna move forward.
• 19:46
  They want to make sure they have all three credit bureaus.
• 19:49
  And that is because the loss of a loan is so much detrimental
• 19:54
  to, compared to the cost of getting data to do the loan. Right.
• 19:57
  And it also reiterates that they know there's enough variation between our
• 20:01
  different credit bureaus that it's going,
• 20:04
  it has a high potential of changing when it goes to that final pricing sheet.
• 20:08
  And so there's a choice today, there's options today,
• 20:12
  and we see people choosing with their pocketbook to buy more data sooner to make
• 20:16
  sure that the experience for their customer is that that lender closes that
• 20:21
  model.
• 20:21
  Yeah. Are there any,
• 20:23
  are there certain lenders or like whether we're talking about wholesale and
• 20:27
  broker channel or the independent bank or depositories that might choose one
• 20:31
  path over the other or pulling all three out the,
• 20:33
  the gate versus a single report? Or is that kind of a, a,
• 20:37
  a lender by lender decision? Yeah, I could take a trends.
• 20:40
  Yeah. I mean, I,
• 20:41
  I would say one thing maybe adding onto what Joel said is that the consumer
• 20:46
  experience is real, really important on the consumer having that certainty and,
• 20:49
  and again,
• 20:50
  getting credit for all of what they've done in their credit file or in their
• 20:55
  relationship to credit. There's been conversations about other,
• 20:58
  other lending lines. Again, Joel said very rightfully so,
• 21:01
  that in other lending lines, multiple reports are used also.
• 21:03
  Those are those lending lines that consume this alternative data way more than
• 21:08
  mortgage does. So it's good to see mortgage moving in that direction.
• 21:11
  But my point here is that typically a,
• 21:14
  a borrower and even their broker or their loan officer may not know exactly
• 21:18
  right up front which loan product is best for them. It could be a GSE loan,
• 21:23
  it could be a non QM loan. It could be a VA loan. Right. And I, I think again,
• 21:29
  the, to be able to cast the net as widely as possible to get the consumer in the
• 21:32
  right product, taking a look at all three bureaus and,
• 21:35
  and really using a trended score like vantage score is probably,
• 21:38
  is the best answer to get the best option from the consumer. That's right.
• 21:41
  The, the other piece I would put on that, around the three bureaus and,
• 21:45
  and that is if we go to one eventually,
• 21:49
  like in any area, the models are gonna change a little bit.
• 21:53
  So if you know that the broker is picking the highest score or you believe that
• 21:58
  yeah. And you're seeing a seven 30,
• 22:00
  you probably eventually will see some of the pricing price that more like a
• 22:05
  seven 10 or a 7 0 5 because they have to take into account what they're not
• 22:10
  seeing. So the absence of data punishes the consumer from a pricing perspective.
• 22:15
  And I, I think that's one of the risks that we really haven't contemplated.
• 22:19
  But I will tell you, if you listen to enough of the panels,
• 22:22
  and there's been a lot of them in the last six months on this topic,
• 22:25
  a lot of our leading lenders are out there sharing that information.
• 22:28
  They truly want to get the best loan for the customer.
• 22:31
  And so there's a decent chance they're still gonna buy all three bureaus.
• 22:34
  It's just they're gonna put the best one forward.
• 22:36
  So then the overall ecosystem will have to adapt somewhat to that approach.
• 22:41
  That's right. Alright, so let's bring this back to MBA annual 2025.
• 22:46
  Credit reporting has been a hot topic.
• 22:47
  One of the breakout sessions yesterday was a complete,
• 22:50
  like overflow standing room only.
• 22:51
  So it's clearly something people are talking about here in Las Vegas this week.
• 22:56
  Michelle,
• 22:56
  can you kick us off with one of the biggest misperceptions that you're,
• 23:00
  you're hearing here at MBA annual or you hear from clients and interactions that
• 23:03
  you'd like to set the record straight on or bring clarity to?
• 23:08
  I mean, I think TU has started off this session with the biggest one,
• 23:10
  which is that the bureaus don't compete or that there's not innovation happening
• 23:15
  within data or the credit bureau industry.
• 23:19
  Because like we said,
• 23:21
  mortgage is the only space that requires three bureaus to be pulled.
• 23:26
  We've been competing on that underlying data for decades,
• 23:30
  innovating building on top of it,
• 23:32
  trying to represent the consumer as completely as we can. And so for me,
• 23:36
  that's the biggest misperception I keep hearing over and over again at this
• 23:40
  conference.
• 23:41
  You only, I I think you hit, you guys hit the main ones on the point.
• 23:44
  I did hear,
• 23:45
  hear an individual stated that three credit bureaus is not good for the
• 23:49
  consumer. And I, I don't believe that in any way.
• 23:52
  I think that is a misconception,
• 23:53
  and I think that's the spirit of the conversation, that more data is better.
• 23:57
  What do you think that that person's perception was? Why I.
• 24:01
  I think it was fi purely financial financial pricing.
• 24:03
  Maybe we can save 30 or $40 on that closed loan,
• 24:06
  which all of us know is such a small drop. I mean, it, it's less than you know,
• 24:11
  a percent, percent and a half Yeah. Of the total closing cost.
• 24:14
  To secure a loan in the most sound housing market in the world seems a little
• 24:18
  ludicrous at times that we're spending this much energy talking about it.
• 24:22
  But I'm glad we are. I think you know,
• 24:24
  you started this conversation talking a little bit about education and how are
• 24:28
  we doing that?
• 24:29
  It's what's become really obvious in the last couple of months is the vast need
• 24:33
  for education, not only for the consumer, but even our, our customers.
• 24:37
  Yeah. So on the customers, and this, this is gonna be the,
• 24:40
  the actual last question . But as we approach a a period with,
• 24:43
  with lender choice and, and vantage score,
• 24:46
  what do lenders need to do to get prepared and what moves they need to be making
• 24:50
  today to prepare for 2026? That seems to be like the head scratcher.
• 24:54
  I I do hear pretty often, Michelle, please kick us off and close out. Yeah,
• 24:58
  I mean, close.
• 24:59
  Out, I think separately, all three of us have come to the table and said,
• 25:02
  please, we will give you vantage for right now so that you can evaluate it
• 25:08
  in actual underwriting decisions and know how it will play out in your portfolio
• 25:12
  and in the real decisions you're making over time.
• 25:15
  The GSCs are gonna come out with their guidelines for it here soon, you know,
• 25:20
  possibly within the next month.
• 25:21
  And then you'll know how you could make decisions using it. Take, take,
• 25:25
  take the score. Yep.
• 25:27
  Okay.
• 25:28
  Yeah. I would say eyes on the score, like in,
• 25:30
  in every aspect of the mortgage process, as Michelle said,
• 25:35
  we've all made it available. I know that Fannie is starting to,
• 25:39
  to add it on the backend and the MBS pretty soon here.
• 25:42
  So I just think eyes on the score start to develop that Rosetta Stone with it,
• 25:46
  an alternative to the score that's been in market for 30 years. Okay.
• 25:50
  And I would just wrap up. I, I think they've hit it on the nose. So I,
• 25:54
  I want to wrap up by saying thank you, Clayton, for helping make this happen.
• 25:57
  I'm just proud we had a civilized conversation with pretty fierce competitors.
• 26:01
  Joel, Michelle , thank you so much. Thank you. Thank.
• 26:04
  You. Yeah.
• 26:06
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• 26:10
  guidance only, and are subject to change without notice.
• 26:13
  The views presented during the podcast are those of the presenter as of the date
• 26:17
  this podcast has recorded and do not necessarily reflect official positions of
• 26:21
  Equifax.
• 26:24
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• 26:27
  investor relations section@equifax.com.