Latest / The Collaborative Canvas Podcast / Is Your Career Really Off Track? | Corporate Drifters with Shawn Roy

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Is Your Career Really Off Track? | Corporate Drifters with Shawn Roy · The Collaborative Canvas Podcast

• speaker-0: Deep down, are we actually reflecting on what we really wanted to build upon? speaker-1: Career path in corporate world is so unsafe. Amount of layoffs and amount of job losses. Either you basically do a reactive drifting or you do a strategic drifting. I think fear is one can be one of the biggest motivators. speaker-0: It is a This fear is basically ingested in the Millennials or is it actually on Gen Z? speaker-1: I don't believe in this Gen Z Millennial kind of thing. In India, class participation will be like everybody will raise their hands. I know, I know. Who can speak first, you know? speaker-0: When people drift a lot, do they leave any fundamental challenge in their life that they can overcome? speaker-1: First of all, drifting is not easy. It's very uncomfortable. You know sometimes being a drifter also in the carpet world will not make you rise high. speaker-0: Specialist or Generalist speaker-1: specialist. The Zoom Gap. speaker-0: weakness or conversation startup. speaker-1: you speaker-0: Careers were once expected to follow a clear path. Choose a profession, build expertise, move steadily upwards, and remain within a familiar industry. At least that was with me because I come from a family where the same notion used to be there. Get a job, work hard, be in the same industry, don't change it because the moment you will change, then you'll realize that you probably have to restart again. It's not that easy that you can drift across different industries. But that path no longer reflects the reality of many professionals. Roles are disappearing in this whole industry ecosystem and they're being reshaped again. AI is changing how work gets done and capable people are increasingly finding themselves moving across organizations, functions, and even entirely the new careers. Welcome back to the Collaborative Canvas and I'm Mankesh Saxena. My guest today is Sean Roy. He calls them corporate drifters. Sean is a consumer business insight and analytics leader at Haleon and the author of Corporate Drifters, a book that challenges us to stop seeing nonlinear career as a sign of failure or instability. Instead, it asks whether these transitions may actually represent resilience, adaptability, and the ability to survive when the ground beneath us keeps shifting. Sean, welcome to the Collaborative Canvas. speaker-1: Thank you, thank you. speaker-0: It's such a pleasure to have you join this whole ecosystem that I am developing around corporate life. And that book that I read through it is like amazing. And I was reading through the chapters. I was able to portray myself as one of the protagonists in the book. And that's what I really wanted you to talk about when I push ⁓ my own life to you. What would have been your suggestion in that case? speaker-1: But it was so interesting when you say that you could see your life in that book. I think that's very humbling because I write this book and I'm talking to a person who kind of tells me that it helps you and it makes you reflect about your own life. So why don't we start it a little bit about just knowing why you resonate with this book. What's it with the book that makes you speaker-0: I mean, think, mean, of course, no, no, it's definitely, see again, mean, I think, drifting between corporates is again, you know, what my grandpa used to told me. And, know, stick to one organisation, learn the basics of it and then grow upwards. It's like you, you're going vertically up, but in a more of like a step zone. So the first step is to, you know, understand the basic, then get a promotion, like senior position, and then go up and up and up. So you're actually stepping a ladder. You're not going straight up. You can only go straight up if you change. The change would have not happened if you don't have the ability to take that risk. I never had that kind of an ability to take that risk because I was born in such a way that taking a risk is not my cup of tea. But now, today, at this point of time when we know each other for almost like past one year, ⁓ things have changed drastically, Shana. I now I'm actually getting into an event mode where I'm coordinating with a lot of brands as the leaders canvas and I'm talking to them. I think over a period of time what I've realized that you my own identity is now getting created by my own self. I am not backed by any other brand and the reason why is this because I thought let me take a risk, let me see what will happen to me. When I was going through this whole ecosystem ⁓ of market research, I realized that if I stick to this operation, I will probably be ending up becoming a customer ⁓ calling agent for some other BPO at some point of time. I think I would probably have to leave ⁓ the industry. And the whole reason why I came to this industry, because I did that ⁓ interviewing thing with Gallup back in 1998, and I was fascinated by the kind of ⁓ insights we were collecting from each one of them. So when I was reading through it, there's so many things that I actually have written down here. There's so many things which I was able to relate to it. The first thing which I relate was that I almost gave up and I thought, no, let me go back to the BPO industry because that is where I think that's a whole journey that can rebegin. I never thought that and even before that. So I was never been a salesperson. I always feared talking to people, explaining them what I will be selling to them, whether they'll accept it. So it's more like, you you've been hindered by the fact that, you know, if they say no, you're finished. And that was the fear which brought you always down. The risk ability is going down. So I thought, how about I'll just give it a try. Rather than going to a BPO and do night shifts and then curse for yourself for the rest of the life that you didn't achieve anything for yourself, let me be in the industry and change something else and see what happens. And when I got a break with SSI as a business development manager, I actually put my ⁓ myself went into a zone where I really have to do, it's more of a do and die kind of a thing. If I didn't do anything, they'll probably chuck me out. So, chapter was somewhere down the line, we were relating to it. I was relating to it and I was like, by any chance, have you actually written this entire book on my story? Because we never spoke. But then there's always a caveat that there are lives which are actually running in the same timeline. You just don't know it. We meet at certain point of time, but there are hundreds of people like me who are actually going through it. And the book actually detailed them pretty amazingly. These are few things which could have changed your life if you have taken X step or Y step. So I thought, when you'll come here, I'll put forth everything that I have in my mind with respect to how I have envisioned ⁓ my future and what it actually came out to be. And what could actually I do or people like me should do or would have done? So there's so many things. mean, it's like cloudy right now, but so many things. speaker-1: You know, thanks for that, Ankeesh. so to start with, I have been talking to many people at a very informal level for the last six to seven years, where people basically, you know, have lost their jobs, have gone through corporate restructuring, layoffs, people who felt that they have been working in that organization for the last 18 years, 20 years, 15 years. And they almost felt that this is my identity. They almost felt like, I belong here and this is a part of my DNA. It's almost like this is my family or this is where I belong. You know, people almost felt that they can naturally talk about, they almost felt that corporate identity was their human identity. And When this particular entire thing started, like people losing jobs, and it's not started now, like in the last two, three years, Meta, Amazon, Google, know what's happening there, but essentially, or, you know, people, how they're repurposing, like, you you hear news about people who have lost their jobs, who have gone into severe depression. speaker-0: Everybody laid off. Yeah. speaker-1: They are not able to think of doing anything else because they only had one identity and now that is gone and now they have nothing to fall on. They like lost everything in their lives. But then, you know, I was talking to another breed of people who kind of said that, ⁓ it's okay, this is gone. Then I can just move. I can do this. I can do that. You know, that really interested me to understand that where the psychology is coming from. speaker-0: Yeah. The researcher or few came out actually. speaker-1: Yeah, the qualitative research of my side. In the sense like, there were people who are so stuck and they feel it's like the end of life. And there are people who feel that this has happened but this opportunity is there, I can go there. And then I started tracing back to their life experience, what they have seen or what they have experienced and I found out that either they have seen a father or a mother. or some family member who have juggled many things in their life. So it's coming to very basic things of life like multitasking. And then we always keep on talking about multitasking, but I would just like to basically talk about multi-identity tasking. In a sense like, you know, like if one identity stops for you to work, you can have another identity to fall on or switch. speaker-0: Correct. speaker-1: It's like switch mode one, switch mode two. Now the switch mode two doesn't work, you have a switch mode three. So essentially that makes you very adaptable as a person. To you, it might be a survival mechanism. And in today's world, it might be something which might be keeping you not only alive, but giving some purpose in your life. Because you can draw purpose from one ⁓ task or switch on to another one if it doesn't work, you you are not lacking purpose in your life and that's very important to basically live, you know, like living without purpose becomes very uninspiring. Correct. And demotivating and you lose everything in your life in terms of interest. So that was the core of it to write the book basically. Obviously for the kind of experiences I have gone through myself, ⁓ I have made switches and changes in my career ⁓ at moments where I was laughed upon. Literally, I was laughed upon. I was looked down upon. I was like called somebody who is very defocused in life. And I don't want to get into why right now, but generally people who don't follow a conventional path ⁓ are always judged in the society. speaker-0: They're being judged. speaker-1: You started with like, ⁓ yeah, I grew up as somebody in a family and I was not very... What did you say? You were not very confident to take risks. It's not you, the hundreds of people. It's not about you, it's not about India. It's also other parts of the world. So if I talk about Indian culture, if you talk about the concept of speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Hinduism, at the core of it, drifting is celebrated because it kind of says that every life has a different phase, right? Like in the scriptures you have that first you go to, you know, that the last part is renunciation, the first part you go to a jungle and spend some time, you become a Shesha. Now you get into a grihasthya life. Now you basically get into a wildlife, etc. So life has different shapes and different responsibilities to fill. It's not that you have to be that single identity with a single purpose from the beginning of your life to the end of your life. You if you see the teachings, the dharma teachings, it's said basically say that there are different roles to play in different phases of the life. But if you kind of see the corporate structure, or the very normal conventional family structure in India. It's like he's getting a good salary, he has a big house, he's basically driving a car. And especially for people who come from Delhi, you know this, how comparison matters. you know, it's very important people judge your success by what you have, where you work, you know, what kind of car you're driving. So obviously, society pushes you back to follow something which is very linear. know, this is a very linear definition, a superficial definition of success. So I've also met people who are very successful having a duple. It was the best condos in Gurgaon. But when you kind of sit on a coffee or a drink with them, they will just open up and say that they are not happy with their jobs. This is not what they want to do. Or maybe they have done and they are now done with that job. That purpose is over and they wish they could do something else. They wish they can basically get into something else. the entire narrative of the society, expectations of the society is driving them not to take that risk. Also, the entire expectation of that, I have to put my son. or daughter in the best international school. And that basically will need this much of money. And I need to basically fend for that. It's a very common thing for people not to take risks because of that, because family comes first. Your priority is, I won't talk about being men. I think being a human being, because I think a man and a woman, they are having equal careers. in many facets now, ⁓ they really want to build that model life of success, in the sense like which glitters, which kind of shows. But then when you sit with them and talk to them, they are kind of really searching something deeper within them, which feels there is a void, or which feels that there is something which is still not fulfilled. Now what is that thing which is not fulfilled? Some are able to answer that, some are not able to answer that basically. So I think these are some of the deep reflections, thoughts, insights which basically has inspired me to write this book. So that is most important. speaker-0: But many are not. That's exactly what I mentioned that you when I was reading that I realized it is me itself who I can see in the book as well and one thing that you mentioned about ⁓ multi-identity tasking I was thinking of an analogy which is like more like a human being and you also mentioned that you know let's not talk about the gender biasness there but as a man you know he lives a role of a father, a grandfather speaker-1: boom speaker-0: probably a friend, so many things. So, he is actually living with a purpose that you also mentioned, with a purpose of delivering that kind of a role. Similarly, in a corporate life, ⁓ believe ⁓ we more of grooming ourselves, we look at how we are economically stabilizing ourselves because again those responsibilities over judge us. That's because success. those glitters that you talked about. speaker-1: becomes a primary indicator. speaker-0: Deep down, are we actually reflecting on what we really wanted to build upon? Many of us actually don't know that because that 9 to 6 job can become 9 to 9 job sometime, there can become no job sometime. And I think when you get yourself discharged from all those ⁓ things which you have in your mind, that cloud that has already been created, until and unless you free yourself from that, you would not be able to think through that. What else you can actually do now? when you don't have the opportunity. speaker-1: You're just not giving your mind that bandwidth. speaker-0: Initially. So, I think people used to cite this example of KFC that at the age of 65 he started and he became a billionaire after that. He did took a risk at a very late in his days. speaker-1: beautiful example yeah 65 years speaker-0: And even if I'm taking that risk at an age of 45 or 46, I don't think so that I would be at a place where I am completely broke, I have no money with me and I'm letting my family go away. I really have to think of something which I can actually do, which at least give me the pleasure, the happiness that I need. speaker-1: And it's more so needed now because the career path in corporate world is so unstable. the ground beneath their feet is just shattering. know, the amount of layoffs and amount of job losses. Either you basically do a reactive drifting or you do a strategic drifting. Reactive drifting, you have lost my job, to do now? Okay, let me do this, do that. And you're so scared that you're not even thinking or not chopping the path. speaker-0: It is. speaker-1: That what will give you happiness. You're just kind of moving from one path to another just for your material comfort or security. But I feel that when such phenomenal events happen, one way of looking at it is that, ⁓ yeah, I have to get into something because I have so much EMI to pay or I have my son's school fees, I have my home installment. These are very normal things, right? People feel. But there is a second opportunity that, okay, now this is really giving me to rethink. speaker-0: Did you speak with people who were on the second opportunity that they actually thought, let me rethink and they actually thought about it and then they acted on it? speaker-1: Yeah, I know a guy who was opened in Ice Cream Balla in Australia. You know, he was my ex-boss and I don't know what kind of name him. speaker-0: ⁓ People would have known by now. speaker-1: You know, like, but the whole point is that, you know, he's so brilliant. He comes from Gujarati family in India. And for the international audience, I'd like to say that, you know, Gujaratis are people who are very good with business and money. But he was a guy who was working in the corporate world for a very long time. Maybe he came from a normal working class family. There are every kinds of Gujaratis there. But Ultimately, I think, you when he got out of this corporate hallucination of a long job with the layoffs and everything, and he basically was staying away from his family, his kids and his wife were in Australia and he was staying in Singapore. And he was like, he used to get a brood many, many times, like, you know, I'm so tired staying alone and my family is away, I'm here away, but what to do? I can't do anything now. This is my job and all that. But that particular point, what happened is that he could see the change coming, the company breaking up, the products going away to another company. He was like, ⁓ it's done. I can't wait for me to get laid off. just like, I need to repurpose my life. So some people, they basically reach that threshold themselves like, this is it. I have to do something now different. You get a calling and he basically now has opened up a digital marketing company, if I'm not wrong, ⁓ outdoor signage kind of a thing. And along with that, he has some very beautiful ice cream parlor, which is opened along with his house there. He's made his money. He's repurposed things for him. He is now giving more time to his family. because he knows his sons will now move out to university and all this while he was not able to give time. So he really didn't want to go do something which is about traveling or which is about, again, not being able to give time. So I think he repurposed, we were from the fact that he wanted to give time to family. So that was his primary motivation. And then he designed everything around that so that he can give more time to family. Why he could do that? Because he obviously has worked for a long time. He has built some corpus. Now for some people, that some corpus might be very less. And they feel that, no, another 10 years I need to build it. But he somehow managed to switch his mind to a position that, OK, let's see what I can do with this. And let's see basically how I can live with my means. or how I'm going to do things, how basically I can repurpose without thinking that I have to really, really earn too much, you know. you have to train your mind also. speaker-0: I agree. I agree. mean, when you're saying this, you know, for a period of time people are working in the corporate structure, they don't want to step out of that even. I know so many people who are still with the first company that I used to work with for the last 20 years they're there. They only believe that, you know, ⁓ let's say 2 lakh rupees is enough for me to survive in this tiring world and I'm actually getting that. So, I don't have to worry about it. I probably would have invested in buying a couple of new houses and now they're actually yielding me through rented income. I am like, this is what I always wanted. They don't want it to drift at all. Then there are another category of people who actually think that drifting would actually give them the next level of, you know, learnings. I mean, honestly, when I was struggling to find a job back in 2012 and 2013, The reason why I stepped into sales is because the only thing which motivated me saying that I've spent seven, eight years in one organization, I know the basics and that's exactly what I need to sell. What would be the hardest part of it? So I said yes to an organization which is more of a startup during those days and I started calling people. That was the biggest roadblock for my, probably my career or I thought at certain point of time I would not be able to do that. I would not be able to convert them. But then this beautiful ad of Tata Sky used to come, jab bolonge tabhi toh pata chalega, something like that, I don't remember now. So, it's more like if I am going to tell them that this is what I sell, they would either say no or they'll buy it. speaker-1: Sorry, I'm just talking about, but please continue. I think fear is one can be one of the biggest motivator. Fear, because fear can stop you, but fear can also just make you move forward because a lot of people, they are repurposing and reinventing their lives from insecurity. Now, the insecurity of losing a job, the insecurities that my job is not going be there, you know, you've gone through that, know, like insecurity drives you to try many other things. You know, that's what I wanted to do. speaker-0: True, true, which is why I also wanted to ask you this question. speaker-1: Fear can be something which can stop you but fear can be also something which can make you do 10 more things. Like you are so afraid that you don't want to come to that situation so you start doing things. speaker-0: which is why I'm asking this question. Do you know qualitative researchers? You have met hundreds and hundreds of people over a period of time during your time. This fear is basically ingested in the Millennials or is it actually on Gen Z? Question number one. Question number two, during my podcast journey, I've met so many D2C brands who have stopped their career at a certain age and now drifting through that risk and creating their own identity. This is the second category of Z. So the first question, do you think that you know, because I also meet a few Gen Z's who say that I have still a quality of a bit of millennials because I've been born and brought up by them and I can see myself there. So do you see when you're writing that book, when you interview people, do you see that you know, there are Gen Z's who still fear that I don't want to take that risk, now I'm actually getting a job because still I believe that they are the most in the zone that they can take risk and considering the corporate environment we are living right now. everywhere the jobs are going just like that and people are starting their own stuff ⁓ which is like they taking biggest drift in their life. It worked out, if it doesn't, they don't even actually care. They will start something new. The last episode that I shot with somebody, she closed her business after making it million dollars out of it and then started again. speaker-1: She's made the money, Yes. she basically, it's filled a purpose for her. Now she wants to go after another purpose, basically. But today, I think it's looked upon as something which is inspiring. But 20 years back, it was looked upon as something which is like, it's like lack of purpose. So things are changing. ⁓ But I don't believe in this Gen Z millennial kind of thing. I have met a lot of millennials who are like, Super Gen Z and lot of Gen Z's were like superminerals or a lot of Gen Z's were like super Gen X also. So I don't believe in the generation thing. ⁓ But yeah, I understand where you're coming from. like I think it's a mindset. It's more to do a mindset. ⁓ People have taken risk at that time also, but people are celebrated less. Today people are taking more risk and they're getting celebrated more because the success stories are out in the open. There's social media and everything. You're basically consuming something which is more visible. Like I was inspired by a guy who basically is a handicapped guy and he is now owning four businesses. He's so successful. And the kind of hardships has gone through to basically be there. So I think. In today's world, you have more inspiration to draw from. I also feel social media is such a, if I look at it, a lot of people can talk about its negative effects and all that, but I would like to talk about the positivity of social media here. If you really want to be inspired, it's out there. You can just see the lives of the people, the podcasts you're running. speaker-0: about the speaker-1: That can be an inspiration for people to basically learn that how people are doing things, how people are going about it, how people are repurposing their lives. So I think the evidential anecdote of people's lives are in the open now. And you can basically draw inspiration from there and do things. So I was doing some qualitative research. And once a young teen guy in Indonesia said that, my family, nobody is in sports, even my father is not very sporty, but then I follow this particular sports person, I follow this nutritionist and they are my inspiration. So in today's world, you don't have to look for inspiration within the family or within your immediate circle. You know, I think the entire baggage of influencers today, and if you want to basically use them positively, speaker-0: within the family. speaker-1: to inspire you, you can basically take a lot of inspiration because the life is out in the open. So drifting becomes also a very mature mindset. You're basically seeing that, this person is doing his own ⁓ body fitness kind of a channel in YouTube, or this lady is running her own cooking show, or. ⁓ First of all, I do want to give the stereotypical example of lady and cooking, but a lady can also kind of give the same thing. speaker-0: you already killed that notion of gender biasness because eventually men are also cooking but the point is speaker-1: The point is that it is out in the open, those guys are unconventional and they are basically now running it so successfully. It's creating another generation of people who feel that it's possible. think that so the drifting mindset also becomes a bit more reinforced in type of culture and environment we are living in as compared to the past. speaker-0: And has that changed across different regions because you have seen Indonesian culture, you have seen Singapore. speaker-1: I told that by scriptures we are drifters, but by expectations of the society, we like to be fit into a linear career. We are very scared to experiment because like we are quintessentially middle class, come from middle class family. We have this burden of parents looking at us, ⁓ you have lifted our life up now and you almost feel that there is a very pseudo messiah syndrome around you. speaker-0: Correct. speaker-1: and you feel that you're responsible for everything except yourself. So that's one kind of culture. The other kind of culture have come across Japan. And with all due respect to every culture here, there is a lot of baggage and burden of loyalty over there. People feel that they have to be loyal to a company. ⁓ It's not encouraged or it's not celebrated in the society that you stick out. Or even I come from the South, just station part of it, people feel that I have to blend in. I can't stand out. To be a part of the society, I have to blend. I have to be like others. Standing out too much is seen as disrespectful, or is seen as something that people are being a bit more self-centric, selfish. But I will not say that's a constraint. In India, class participation will be like everybody will raise their hands. I know, know. Who can speak first? I've seen the culture different in corporate world in classrooms. But for a country like Indonesia where I've lived, it's not about class participation. It's like the parent is saying that it's OK if my son is not coming first. But if he's helping the others, student who is a bit slow to become better in the study, he is a better human being. ⁓ So I think the way of looking at success, and why I'm talking about the information culture, because they are drifters. Indonesia is full of drifters. It's one of the largest countries in the world. And I've stayed there. People, can switch from being a singer to a sculptor. ⁓ Like in a profession like qualitative research, people will do qualitative research and they'll become moderators after some time. They like that. Also, the people who are working in field or because in the research world, have a field office and you have research office. When I worked in India, I felt there's a huge difference. The researchers are like God and the field people who are like at their mercy. speaker-0: true. speaker-1: But if you go to some countries, like I have worked in Indonesia, I will say, and I hope I'm not kind of studying any controversy here between India and other parts and all that, but ⁓ it's very equal treatment. A field is a field. A researcher is a researcher. The field person is spending a lot of time in the research office. Research person is spending a lot of time speaker-0: That's not a controversial element, Sean. What you pointing out is the reality, first of all. Secondly, what I have always believed, know, those corporate drifters who have seen the culture from a different lens altogether, you know, being in Indonesia or Philippines or any other part of the world, they know exactly how things work. We are actually in a very stereotypical environment where you have to go straight. speaker-1: A is a researcher, field is a field. And researcher is perhaps basically the elite class and field is not that elite class. But in Indonesia, I've seen a researcher shifting to becoming a field guy. A field guy shifting to becoming a researcher. That shifting is so easy. It's not like in some countries it's difficult to break that barrier. So in certain countries it's not. speaker-0: So I truly echo that thing because ⁓ when I met you for the first time and something that I'm telling you now when I met you for the first time, ⁓ lot of people who actually know you, they know you for being very blunt, but they also know you for being very ⁓ open minded, how things work, how respect works within the corporate culture. You've been admired by a lot many people when I was trying to See if I can get Sean as my client and I can get him there. So what I generally do when I reach out to a client, I generally dig some information, how my conversation should go with him. So I heard a lot of praises about you Sean and that's what I'm saying. You're not making a controversial statement. The point that you made is ⁓ very good. When a father is saying that my son is helping somebody, other students to become a good human being, It actually means you are giving your son ample amount of opportunity to rethink what he can do in his life if he fails at one point of time. speaker-1: Absolutely. Not like a one straight-jacketed thinking that you have to come first. speaker-0: Exactly. You know, we get inspirations, of course. Social media is full of them. We actually get inspiration. there's one of the biggest inspirations that ⁓ quoted failure as something which is highly motivated word that, know, Jack Ma failed 100 times. So why cannot I fail? We have now seen failure as a positive alignment. We are seeing failure as more of a motivational thing for us that, you know, if we at this point of time stop, there's another thing which we can start. I would probably see for myself as well because I've always drifted around my career line. I I've never seen that, you know, if this would stop, what would I do? Doing podcasts was more of that I'm not very good at, you know, completing a book unless and until I feel some excitement around it. My daughters love the books. They always go and buy books and complete them. for me, it's like, you know, if I'm reading a book, then I'm actually reading it for eight pages and then I'm giving it away unless and until I'm getting enjoying. So the biggest... reason why I started the podcast is to meet people directly, learn from them because that's where I fit myself as a salesperson. So the first drifter was that I knew how interviewing people would help me get into an online data collection world. Seven years into that, I drifted again to that I understood that seven years I've spent in this whole platform SaaS-based industry, I know how to I can sell it out. Then I stepped into the sales industry. then while selling online panels, I realized that now the SaaS has come as a new tool for people to use it. And then I moved into another company where I was selling SaaS. So now I'm covering everything which I started learning at the back end. But this doesn't stop there. With sales, I got an inspiration to start a podcast. And with podcasts, I got an inspiration to start a leaders' canvas. So that's how I've grown myself. I drifted a lot. So my question to you is, when people drift a lot, do they leave any fundamental challenge in their life that they can overcome? Or if I would have said it another way that, are they leaving behind anything which could have given them a better scope in their life? speaker-1: First of all, drifting is not easy. It's very uncomfortable because every drift is changing you as a person. Perhaps it's bringing you closer to your own self. Some people lie tears away from what actually will give him or her that happiness. And with every drift, perhaps you're coming closer to that. So if you're to visualize that, it's something like speaker-0: I agree. speaker-1: Squid games ⁓ or any kind of hurdle games where you're basically, you know, just passing those Hurdles so why I'm saying hurdles because every drift would come with hurdles. It's not easy You know like drifting from a SAS to a sales to a podcast to a leaders canvas Huge amount of hustling huge amount of fear of failure like a question that will I be able to pull this off? I am taking this. I think it is also mindset that okay, let me just see and do it. If it fails, it fails, but let me just try this. I think that is a very simple mindset, but it is basically a very, very important mindset to develop. It is not easy. Some people develop it that and they develop it by conquering that fear of failure basically. Now, Sometimes if you're not strategically drifting, you're just like drifting for the purpose of staying afloat. just to basically address your insecurity of money isn't, then that might something, you're not addressing the reason to drift. And my book basically says that if you're drifting, there has to be reason enough deep inside you to basically say that why you're drifting. what is driving you. So, I mean that purpose is very important to basically speaker-0: Is there like could be a money or happiness? speaker-1: See, there many people who basically struggled for 15 years. They didn't see the face of money, but after 15 years they become billionaires. You know, there are many cases like that. There are many people who have basically built that money for 20 years, but still they are very scared to drift. You know, so there are some people because... speaker-0: Right? I know them as well. speaker-1: I can't take that risk. I'm not made for that. I can do it, but will I be able to succeed? Those are the kind of questions you do. And there are some people who feel that, just fuck it. I'll just kind of move forward. I'll just kind of take this risk. I'll do it. A lot of factors matter. For married people, it's about the kind of partnership you have. So that's a very, very big role that you husband and a wife and your family are just supporting you in the spirit of drifting because life is just not about yourself. It's about the kind of family you're coming from, kind of partner you have, where they say that go ahead. I must talk about this thing because you know partnership is a very very important thing and marriage is a partnership. You know like I'm talking about people who are married. Not essentially this podcast is not about married and unmarried people but speaker-0: I speaker-1: It's just about people who married. In there, the partnership is very important. They say that it can be a case that you have a working wife, or you have a husband, or husband or wife, husband husband or I can run the show for two years. You go and try to. So what they're doing, they're basically giving their trust to you. They're trusting you with the ability that you will be able to do something in the two years or three years. So they're putting their trust. When somebody is putting the trust on you, you have to give everything into it to make it happen. Now, there are people who don't and they fail. And there people who give everything, they also fail. So, I not coming to the success thing. But at least there is basically a thing that I give my all and I try to do everything. In spite of that, maybe there's some external force or there is some other reason that it did not happen. But you know from deep inside that you tried 100%. And I think when you really try from your heart, if that thing even doesn't happen, some other opportunities come in. I'd like to give an example. When I had a job loss many, many years back, I started my small YouTube channel. It's like dormant now. For me, I realized that getting visible is very important. So I just started this small channel. I was putting videos of my knowledge of whatever I do and all that. It was all tangible insights. And in a sense, I was getting two likes, three likes. Nobody's watching it. was like, nothing is happening. ⁓ I just started it. It was quite imperfect. It's not like I waited for a right studio. I was doing it from a dining table. I edited things on my own. It's like 10 years back. And nothing happened. Some friends and some colleagues said that, yeah, wow, liked it and all that. My wife was a joint in a of those recordings and all that. What happened is it didn't work. It didn't work much. Or maybe I didn't have the perseverance for another three years to run it. You know, it can be anything. I'm just giving the example that when you... But I did it really, really, really honestly and all that. So it didn't kind of work out. I will not say it's success. But what happened is that some people in LinkedIn, looked at my videos. And after one year, I kind of got a message in my LinkedIn, this thing. I saw your video. I really liked it. Why don't you come and speak in our forum? speaker-0: So something actually clicked, if that didn't click. So that's speaker-1: That's what I believe. That core purpose might not be successful. You didn't become that great motivational speaker, and people acknowledge you. But something happens out of it. So there are three, four people who kind of, why did you come and speak in our seminar? Why did come and do this? I really like this topic. Why don't we turn this into a podcast? So I did it in Singapore. Why don't we turn this into an article? So lot of things started happening from there. And I was in a position that, I be able to pull this? But then when people called me for a podcast in Singapore, people called me for an article in work, the topic which I've spoken about, they want to talk. That gave me huge confidence that I am in the right path in terms of my thinking. What I'm doing is not an entire failure. Maybe it didn't go the way I wanted. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: but it's opening up a galaxy of opportunities. And today, if you see from 2018, 17 till 2026, I was not a speaker then. I was not any of the forums. speaker-0: Whenever I have seen you, been a good orator. speaker-1: Like from that time onwards, I started speaking in some of those conferences. And it's not just because of Halion. It started before Halion. then it kind of, obviously, when I was in Halion, it gives you a client visibility and the brand, everything. But it snowballed. So it really gave me that platform to become a good speaker, orator, somebody who is speaking. talking on of the insights industry, giving a point of view. But it all started there. It started from that point of insecurity. I was pushed to the wall. I didn't know what to do. I was like, will I even get a job in Singapore? The opportunities are so less, you know. So that's how things kind of happened. And this is my own personal reflection. Comes from there also. speaker-0: and when And the book... And that's exactly where my story with your story actually matches. And I'll tell you my story. So, that was one thing. First year was all about, you know, it's not like I'm it. I mean, I'm recording it online but it is not yielding me the kind of attention that I'm actually looking at because... And you're not... speaker-1: deep inside, you mazani aura. You mazani aura is a very important indicator that whether it's going right or wrong because you can feel deep inside that something is wrong. Something is not giving me satisfaction. Something is just not giving me that feeling that you will always know. speaker-0: Yeah. It is. Which is why I started doing this through the studios because when you sit in front of a person there's a different vibe that you actually capture. Obviously. It is not always online because then they have Apache internet, you don't hear some certain things. Here we are actually connecting word to word. Which is important. speaker-1: Starting in the heart to heart, you are connecting also at a level, are, it's a very speaker-0: visiting close to each other we are talking about. speaker-1: It's a transfer of energy. speaker-0: Yeah, it's a transfer of energy, true. ⁓ almost doing after that when I interviewed Dave in Bangkok, he suggested that I should... This is this year only, FEB. And then he suggested I should again come for APRC conference and tell people what did I learn out of 100 interviews that I have done. You? Yes. ⁓ I am actually doing a paper on that. speaker-1: one year before. a good suggestion. You have to turn what you have done into opportunities. Like you have done this hundred interviews. Now Dave saying you that you turn this into basically something which you can speak about what you learned. It's a brilliant suggestion because it's about taking what you are doing forward and telling that story how you're doing it. ⁓ it kind of raises the work to a next level. So I really like speaker-0: But Sean, you know the fear is that when I will see 200 people sitting in front of me, will I be able to commit to that stage presence of mine, will I be able to deliver that speech or not is the fear. Although my wife always tells me that it's a piece of cake for you because you have been doing podcasts for a while now, you have attended sessions, you have done an MC role as well at a certain conference. So, I think that should not be a problem. I am a very impromptu kind of a guy. So if you give me a script, I would still go through that, but then I would improvise during the conversation or the delivery. On the fear thing, that's exactly the fear I have, but I think to overcome that, and I think it's by luck or God's grace that I am actually doing this leaders' canvas, I think half of my fear will go away when I will sit in front of so many people and would... speaker-1: So you're doing something which basically will help you overcome your own fears. I think that's very important to do. And that's about experimenting new things. But also one thing which my books talks about is that ultimately you have to play by your strengths. At the core, it has to be your strengths. Within those strengths, there might be areas which are weak areas. But at the core, it has to be your strength. If I also see what you're doing is that you're basically connecting with people. So there's a people factor to it. You're not trying to talk to people, understand, bring people together, you know, in a forum or, you know, kind of also letting people's lives out through a podcast so people can consume, people can connect. So maybe your strength is about connecting people. or connecting with people. And it's so beautiful to hear that what all that can be. It can be a postcard, it can be a conference, like a leaders' converse. It can be something else, perhaps. ⁓ speaker-0: There could be so many things that lie will be unfolding in future which I am not aware of it. I am living in the present and I can only foresee myself for next say 5 months or 6 months at max that this is what I really wanted to do. So, when they gave me that opportunity, I couldn't let myself say no, I don't want to do that. I wanted to do it because that is where the next risk will be. Will I be a good orator in future? Will I be able to speak what I have learnt? Will people be able to learn through it or not? It doesn't matter. Am I able to deliver that first? Because ⁓ we are doing this before the Leaders' Canvas. Post Leaders' Canvas, we will be airing this episode. The question that you mentioned that, know, will it be a success or not, I may be able to answer you then. But the other fear is, will it be actually a successful event that I am doing? But that's just a smallest of it. Even if I am able to get 80 people on there, because I've been talking to almost everybody and I'm inviting everyone. people are joining me, I've already got 70 plus registrations. If that happened, all I need to ensure that the event flows the way it has been structured. It will be a failure or success, I don't care. I only get to know once it is done and then I'll plan the other events. speaker-1: But it's always first, you always your first will have some kind of lawn and you want to do something better. I ⁓ think coming back to the topic of drifting, like within your core strength areas, you're drifting. You know, like today, this podcast is a one to one podcast. But a conference is a very different format and it's uncomfortable. speaker-0: So I don't want to keep any expectations. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yes. speaker-1: It's not your comfort zone. Nope. You're trying to basically stretch beyond your comfort zone. speaker-0: Beyond that, it took me almost 9 months to decide that I should do something like this. speaker-1: And it kind of takes time. It kind of takes deliberation. It takes also support from people mentally, physically. So I think, but then if you don't kind of really go that path and see where they can do it, it's also about really stretching and seeing that, OK, I can do it or not. But I still feel that, you know, like. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: It's very important to play by your strengths. And once you have done that new thing, you will basically realize that, I thought it was like not my cup of tea, but it's actually something within my area of strength. You know, I'm just expanding my area of strength. So basically, one example I took from my book. So one journalist, I've given an example from Bangalore. Mumbai. And these are all conversations with people like the book has. He lost his job because that entire journalism piece around 2010 become digital and all that, know, and then somehow he joined the digital team later, the digital content team, people who basically put the content together, make the strategy, and all that. And somehow we could feel that because he's been a journalist for the last 10, 15 years and he lost his job, now being in this team, he never felt inspired about the job. He felt like, I'm in this team, I've joined as a junior, now just to kind of meet my insecurities and all that. But he could really feel that being a journalist, the kind of... kind of stories he has generated over the years and kind of human issues he has dealt with. This content and digital team, they only look at producing the content, but he can basically sense that which story will do well or know what kind of human things or emotions which are coming across your stories will work well. speaker-0: Yeah the physics field. speaker-1: He started using the strength of a journalist in this job. And then he left. And now he's become a consultant. And now all these digital companies, media companies, they hire him for the expertise of not that he's basically a digital content editor, or there can be so many people there. But they hire because he can match the tech part with the human part. speaker-0: I think, Sean, it's more like, you know, it's your own psychological barrier that puts you at the back seat. Otherwise, people can explore and can go beyond understanding what their strength is. speaker-1: Yeah, and you know sometimes being a drifter also in the corporate world will not make you rise high. Like you will see a lot of your colleagues and everybody kind of really climbing the ladders and also sometimes a lot of people who are junior to you kind of really has become senior to you. So one is that you basically feel or the world makes you feel even your sometimes your immediate bosses or peers might make you feel that ⁓ you're behind. speaker-0: Agreed. speaker-1: and you might really give in to it and you might feel very demotivated and you might just lose it, you know, all your confidence and you feel that, yes, I'm really behind now. You know, so many people have gone ahead of me. Now, this whole narrative of going ahead is very flawed, according to me. You know, the thing is that, you know, like spirituality or, you know, kind of the humanism teaches you that you don't have to be always speaker-0: I know. speaker-1: ahead of others to feel like that. You can feel good by doing what gives you happiness. I'm just coming back to your previous topic. It might sound a bit philosophical, but this is very simple. In my career today, I know a of colleagues and all those things. Perhaps they're doing very great, and they're earning loads of money, and they're ahead of me in the career. But I love insights. speaker-0: Yeah. No, no it is speaker-1: I love qualitative research. I love this portion of human emotions where I can deconstruct those emotions and connect those emotions with a product development, the communication development. This can keep me awake in the night. This can bring me here for the podcast, you know. So, very, very critical for me because, you know, it's something which gives me, ⁓ it's like something which is my second nature. It's like something which is like my hobby. Like I'm like awake ⁓ on Saturday and I'm just thinking, ⁓ this project happened and this particular insight came in about this product and how this can help in the innovation. And I'm like thinking, I'm journaling and I'm writing and am I doing it only for my company? No, like obviously this. speaker-0: That's a project that you're doing but you're learning out of... speaker-1: do for myself, my soul. You know like it's also kind of connecting me with a human emotion. It's not about ⁓ shampoo. You mean if I'm doing a walk on shampoo, it's not about a pain relief brand or it's not about ⁓ speaker-0: I think for more of you, it's like learning what kind of insights is coming out of this whole exercise. And every single insight that is coming, it is different than what we have learned over the Yeah, that's the part. Exactly. speaker-1: fascinating and that's not only the fascinating part of it, it kind of helps me grow as a human being. Like when I am basically trying to understand people who are low income and how they are striving for happiness, what kind of products they are buying, how do they look at pain, know, versus people who are basically flushed with money, how do they look at life and how do they look at pain, you know, endurance. You know, it's a very different story altogether. So today, you know, like with this last 20 years of experience across different companies and different agencies in different countries, you know, I'm very rich with human stories and emotions. And that makes me feel I'm very rich. Not from the point of view, whether my colleague went ahead of me or I am behind that colleague in terms of me. Basically, I think today's society speaker-0: It doesn't matter that. speaker-1: needs to really ⁓ stop looking at materialism as an indicator for success because that will never satisfy your soul. speaker-0: And that doesn't stay for long. speaker-1: If that's a by-product, if you're doing study, am I living uncomfortably? No. By God's grace, I'm living comfortably. I eat my food very nicely. I have a good health. I have a good family who are supporting to me. It's also about really accepting that. speaker-0: Yeah. That is exactly what you want. speaker-1: to what extent you want to really see the material indicator as a growth for yourself. And also the kind of culture I come from, I am born and brought up in a place like Calcutta. know, where at least the time when I have grown up, there was no concept that you have to have this brand of car or you have to have a two-storeyed house. It was basically about simple life and high thinking. speaker-0: simple life. speaker-1: Yeah, and it's basically people celebrated high thinking as something which was celebrated. What kind of topics you can talk about? Can you talk about politics? Can you understand that why this particular political party? What is the movement? Why this revolution happened? know, when you basically start having those kind of conversations at home and within your immediate circle. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: You you start looking at your life in a very different way. You know, like you don't draw inspiration from material. You know, so that's what and I think like and why I'm talking about Calcutta, not to be very proud that I'm from Calcutta, somebody is not from Calcutta. I don't want to get that route. speaker-0: things. I think that's a cultural alignment that you've been brought on. speaker-1: No, but there's another reason. Calcutta or even Chennai, see, India, even Indonesia for that matter, Southeast Asia, many parts in other worlds, we were brought up in a way that, yeah, you will study also, but you learn music. And you can try it painting also. And you basically go to football. You love your football and you get into football. Now, ⁓ OK, you want to kind of. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: you're good at your studies but you want to kind of do history then excel in history. know so it was not that you have to become an engineer or you have to go doctor because those are the only ways whatever you do you do that excellently you know and that will open up opportunities from you. You those kind of family conversations and inspiration from their parents also helps you to become a drifter. Because you don't basically even see life very straight. speaker-0: Which is what I cited when you mentioned about that indonation thing. Example, that you know when a parent is teaching his son or his daughter that you know help and become a good human being, I think that's where you creating a different mindset altogether. speaker-1: This is one of the interviews, you when I was doing this child research, one of the mothers said that for me it's just about, he doesn't have to come first in the school, if there is another son, another student who is behind and he is helping him to basically come ahead in life, he is already one. He is a winner. I think that's also kind of what kind of generation you are bringing up. Because the generation today or even your centimus, know people who are just going to pass out in college, that world is going to be very different. speaker-0: Exactly, which is why I raised that question earlier, how do you see both of them, Millenials speaker-1: The world is going be different. My niece is 17 now. She's now going to get into college and everything. A of my friends and everything, their sons and daughters will get into new life. The world is so uncertain. And if you don't prepare your child to become a drifter, to be adaptable of different skills, if you kind of still bring up your kid or your whatever, like the way that they are linear, Very very straight jacket editors or thinking or they're only one skill to lean on You know, that's not going to be something which is great for them because the world ahead of them is very different The world ahead of them is about AI's Now either you see that AI is basically something which is kind of taking the jobs away or it's something which is making their lives better you know in the sense like I just created a podcast with speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Tom speaker-0: I heard that. ⁓ speaker-1: You know, like what I had an idea is that I just kind of put the book and I'll turn that into a conversation with speaker-0: It's a 40 minute first episode. speaker-1: And it really challenges the book. I use the AI to basically just generate the first podcast for my book. Now, I'm very proud of myself because I did that. speaker-0: In fact, one question which I actually came here, I wrote here was from the podcast that you launched day before yesterday I guess. When I heard that through... You heard that fully? Yeah, for 10 minutes. Then I realised it's not your voice and I thought you probably would have used an LLM there. Because I did this last year for one of my episodes. So this was like, let me challenge the book central argument. Could celebrating corporate drifting sometimes prevent people from developing deep expertise or preserving through a difficult phase, which we already spoke about. But that actually came from that podcast that when I heard that. I love that 40 minutes of the glimpse of the corporate after episode one. I'm sure there are many more to come in. you guys have really wanted to hear that, I'll probably post that podcast on Spotify on my description as well. Just go and click it. ⁓ Sean, if someone is listening today and feels that corporate drifting is not that easy and it comes with a lot of challenges, what is one advice as Sean, not a qualitative researcher, as Sean, who have heard so many people before writing this book, would give them an advice that this is an advice that I'm giving you that will help you drift through the corporate life. speaker-1: Just be very sure about yourself, even if you're not sure. I think that's what I would say. I think it's like you'll never be sure ⁓ fully about anything and everything in life. speaker-0: So you're saying that just go and do it? speaker-1: If you really feel from the heart that it's something which you should do about, you should give it a try. If you don't do it early in your life, it's always better to do it as early as possible because you will then start exploring yourself, you'll know yourself. Yeah, there's a great example of KFC. People start their second innings, become billionaires at age of 65. But those are miracle stories, yeah. But I would also like to talk about that, know, if you are very stuck in the very beginning of your life that I don't know to experiment, then it becomes a bit difficult to go and do it later. Either it becomes reactive or out of something like a layoff, necessity, I have to keep myself afloat. But if you have this drifting mindset from the beginning in your head that let me, and drifting mindset comes from the need of doing something which I love. It can't be aimless drifting. My book will not advocate aimless drifting. Like, okay, you just aimlessly, non-strategically drift and just try to stay afloat in life. That's not what speaker-0: I agree. Correct, correct. People still believe that know aimless drifting even if they are not aiming for anything. I mean the classic example that you gave about your boss that you know he really wanted to have something initially and then he started building around the speaker-1: So his pivot was that I have to give more time to my... It was his core pivot, drifting. He totally designed now what has to be done around that. So there has to be a strategic foundation to drift that what I want to achieve. For him, it was very important to spend that time with family because he hasn't done that for years. And now he wanted to maximize that. That was his reason. I think, so another thing is that... speaker-0: My family. That was the goal. Yes. ⁓ Yes. Cut it, speaker-1: One thing which we need to be very sure is basically what is my reason? What is my core? Why do I want to do it? Very simply putting. Why do I want to do it? Why do I do it rare? speaker-0: The point is that what you making right now is that you really have to aim. Luck only works 10 % because there are many medical stories that you mentioned are happening. So really aim because when you aim, then whatever you do becomes your strength and then whatever happens after that becomes your luck. speaker-1: I have seen that in my life. The snowball effect, the miracle effect, or the billiards effect I would like to say that. You just hit the ball, that hits another ball and basically you win. speaker-0: Exactly, and that's exactly what we started with. speaker-1: So I think it just happens and the moments which happens is that you've not expected. least at the moments when you expect things happen. So I think that also happens. Also it happens, like you see the result of it maybe after two years what you've done. You don't see an immediate result. You perhaps sometimes feel that, ⁓ yeah, I didn't walk it and it happened, but it happens. then some might not be like... Also is that when you really put your heart and soul into something, you are manifesting something and that kind of comes to you I feel. Most importantly I think which I kept on speaking I think that the world we are going to and the world we are... if you just try to find happiness in materialism you are in for a big disappointment. You have to find your purpose. I think this is the time also people are... I think the time and the... speaker-0: Disaster. speaker-1: what is happening, it should really push you to think that what I should do and not how I should survive. know, so it's like some people might feel that, like AI, how will I survive? What will I do? And just certain breed of people who are like, ⁓ AI is coming, so now what should I do about it? speaker-0: And there are certain people who are actually telling you that what you can do with the AI. speaker-1: what you can do with the eye. You can do lot of things with it, right? So, yeah. speaker-0: So, the whole point of having these kind of conversations with the collaborative canvas is because when guests who are themselves the qualitative researcher, when they come, they come with a lot of stories. And at this point of time, what are we hearing? We are hearing stories about how people are drifting across their corporate life. There were stories where people drifted at a later stage. There are stories where we are talking about what they aimed and how they drifted. It of course doesn't come that so easy, it comes with a lot of challenges. And before we end as usual, I wanted to put Sean into a space where I'm going to rapid fire questions on him and let's see what Sean comes up with and specifically because I know he's a qualitative researcher, his brain is always active. So, Sean to start with, ⁓ stability or adaptability? ⁓ speaker-1: Adaptability. speaker-0: Specialist or Generalist? speaker-1: specialist. speaker-0: Resume Gap Weakness or Conversation Starter One skill every professional should build today. speaker-1: conversation started. Developing multiple skills is very important. speaker-0: Do you stick to multiple identity skill? speaker-1: multiple identity but also keeping your strength at the core. speaker-0: one outdated piece of career advice. speaker-1: outdated piece of career advice. ⁓ like do your engineering or then do an MBA and then you know become the most successful person in the world. speaker-0: One quality corporate drifter usually possess. speaker-1: to spot opportunities. speaker-0: the biggest mistake people make after losing a job. speaker-1: to hop into another job just to get that salary, which will kind of give them the security of running their life the way they want. speaker-0: being around materialism. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: A career risk you glad you took. speaker-1: Yes, I joined as a quantitative researcher actually. I joined IMRB from my first fresher job as IMRB and I was a quant researcher for a year. I was handling all the different trackings, brand trackings for Unilever. And then I was like just sitting there and kind of crunching numbers. ⁓ I was kind of only told that people who basically crunch numbers, who are analytical, they can kind of be very successful. And that's true in this world. I'm like seeing now where I am and around me that people with analytical, quantitative analytical mindset, they are in a way respected more in the corporate world. ⁓ But you when that quant job happened for a year, I felt very, I felt very limiting. ⁓ like, what am I doing? I'm just kind of sitting on the screen and I'm kind of trying to read numbers, which is exciting. Numbers can tell stories and I can just kind of say, okay, this number is dropping from here to here and maybe consumption has gone down. But why? Now, the why suddenly came from another breed of people who were listening to these cassettes and They were different breed of people, they were of listening to something all day. was like, who are these people? And then I found out that they're not in the office only, they're like 10 days in the office and 20 days they're not seeing, like who are these people? And then I came to know that they are qualitative researchers and I shifted. I immediately shifted and I started having conversations and a lot of people said that you're making the biggest mistake of your life. But I just followed my heart. Because I just knew that, know, some instinctively, I didn't have that experience that, ⁓ like it will work and all that. But I felt that, going out, talking to people, understanding, that's something which will give me happiness. So I just went behind that, you know. I was in villages. I was like, I presented to a Kumar Mangalam Birla. I presented to a Kishore Behani. And I basically kind of, you know, speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: done group discussions with capstone smokers in Bihar and really enjoyed it. And I've just kind of done focus groups with people in a bar to understand why they drink or why they don't drink. just kind of done kind of, I really try to understand how people shampoo in their bathroom. So I think it's such a large spectrum of exploring life. through the lens of products, consumers, whatever, it kind of just makes you a better human being. If you're doing that, it humbles you. When you travel to villages for ITC work and all that, interior villages, where there are no cargos, you have to walk for an hour to reach that village in the middle of the farmlands and all that. And you go and see the condition, you see the balance. things happening inside the village, you kind of see how they interact, you what is the serpent and you know how you just enter one home in the village and the rest of the villages inside the home. You see different world and I was an urban boy. I was very urban when I started but when you basically speaker-0: This was like surprising that this was also happening. speaker-1: It just like totally shifts the lens of your life. It kind of makes you very, very empathetic about human ways, what happens. I'm really grateful that I chose this profession. And right now in Helium also I'm an insights person. I don't want to brand myself as an analytics person because it is limiting for my career. There are people with the analytics and insights mindset who are growing maybe two times more than me in the organization. speaker-0: But you love what you are doing actually. And that is what you loving. speaker-1: I'm just loving what I'm doing. If there is 70 % of people feel that, ⁓ that's and that he has not grown, that Sean has not grown. Today, I'm in a kind of space in my life. I'm OK with it. Let them see the way they want me to see. This guy has not been able to advance in life. But there are those 20%, 30 % of people that really know what Sean is and what Sean can really, really contribute. speaker-0: And that what matters. Yeah. So, I will get you to the last question since you have been a big time corporate drifter. So, you have to complete this sentence. A career is not a ladder. It is. speaker-1: and that's what matters to me. It is a stepping stone to many other opportunities which you can explore. speaker-0: Thank you so much, Sean, for making time out and speaking about not just corporate drift and not just about your book. Your life, ⁓ the way you've seen it through different lenses. ⁓ I'm sure lot of things people can take away from this. And I think we, as a podcast, I can only tell you that I got a bunch of stuff that would probably give me ⁓ a lot of reels in the scope from this conversation. They had nothing being like controversial stuff. We were just talking by our own heart. We love talking and that's exactly what with Sean something is that I have noticed that, you know, we can talk for timeless ⁓ podcast. It's not that we end. honestly, I didn't even ask him any single question that I created for this. It all started by just reading his book. So I'll urge you to go and read his book and see what value you get out of it. ⁓ This is just a small snippet of what we just spoke about it. There's an entire episode which is lying there on Collaborative Canvas podcast. There's another scope which is there on Spotify, which Sean just recently launched. There's so many things that you can actually learn from the book. And this book is amazing. Can I show the book? Of course. And Sean is launching this book at the leaders' canvas. So I'm sure by the By the time this episode gets launched, you would already have met him in the leaders' canvas. And I'll, of course, make a teaser before that so you know exactly what we are talking about. speaker-1: So thank you so much. ⁓ I would like to give one copy of the book to you. So please, this is for you. you so much. And thanks for having the podcast. And thanks for having me. I really hope this book inspires people to take risk, gather some courage in the way they don't look at life at presently. Maybe it opens up their mind to. speaker-0: Thank you. speaker-1: kind of celebrate themselves. know like sometimes we feel we are not good enough, sometimes we feel that you know people are behind others. You know I think this book might be an answer to kind of tell you that you should not feel that if you are kind of doing something really for your passion and if you are doing really something for your own happiness. I think that should be something much more important than speaker-0: Anything else? I agree. I agree. And to be honest, when I read the snippets of this book, which Sean shared with me, I was feeling myself as one of the protagonists in this book. I am 100 % sure when you're reading this, you would feel the same thing. You will see yourself in the same book. There's so much of discovery that you can actually do through a book. So, of course, this book is available on Amazon. So, please go and grab your copy and read through it. So ladies and gentlemen, perhaps a career that changes direction is not necessarily a career that has lost direction. Sometimes the ability to move, learn, rebuild, and begin again is exactly what allows a profession or a professional to remain relevant. At the same time, as we discussed, drifting cannot become an excuse to avoid depth, commitment, and perseverance. The real challenge is knowing when to stay and build and when the changing ground is telling us that this is the time to move. So again, thanks Sean for sharing this thinking behind the corporate defters and for giving professionals a new language to understand their transition without treating any disruption on a personal failure. I also look forward to continuing this conversation with you during the opening panel at the Leaders' Canvas. And since we are launching this book, so there would be a multitude of opportunities that you can speak with Sean and learn from. him and the examples that he cited in the book. And if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the Collaborative Canvas Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, and Amazon Music. And as always, share the episode with someone who may be questioning where the career is heading. Because people learn from people and experiences and the conversation shape actions. Until next time, stay curious, stay collaborative, and keep building What Next. Thank you, Sean, and I'll see you in the next episode. speaker-1: Thank you, Antkesh, for having me here. speaker-0: Thank you so much.