Latest / The You Project / #1628 The Opposite of Anxiety - Dr. Lillian Nejad

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#1628 The Opposite of Anxiety - Dr. Lillian Nejad · The You Project

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: To them, it's Harps, it's Stiff, it's Lily, and it's
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Tiffany and Cook. It to Craig Anthony Harper, it's Lily
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: and Madam.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Been featured, Well, now it has. But before we get
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: to you, we'll start with the Bogan.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: The Bogan dog owner and cat owner who was just
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: showing off her her dog.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Which a noodle.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: She's a little bit aloof your dog, Like she's a
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: little bit like she loves you, but she's a little
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: bit like hug me, but no, don't and then like
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: look away, Yeah, a bit hard to get.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: She's yeah, like she wants your attention all the time,
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: and then the moment you give it to her and
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: you want hers, she's like.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Maybe I've got stuff to do. Yeah, maybe, like I've had.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: My last dog was a Golden Retriever. Well, they just
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: want your attention all the time. They want kisses, they
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: want cuddles, they want food, and then if you're not
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: giving them kisses, cuddles or food, they're asleep. But if
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: they're not doing that, then it's it's one of the
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: other three. So are you a dog person, Lilyan.
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we have a koboodle as well, and he is gorgeous.
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: He's a beautiful dog with lots of personality. He likes cuddles.
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: So if I'm sitting on the couch, she wants to
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: be on my lap. And if I don't feel like
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: him being on my lap, he'll go and try to
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: find some other lab or he'll sleep like he's very sleepy,
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: very chill dog.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: The very diffinite definition of a lap dogs. It's funny
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: how many versions of spoodles slash noodles, kavoodles, goodles, noodles.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: I can se many doodles, doodles, labradoodles.
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: There's noodles of doodles, noodles of doodles.
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  Speaker 2: My mom said, My mum calls them.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Well, in the old days, like dogs that were kind
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: of interbreed dogs, they were called pavement specials or bitss
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: right because it would just be. But now they called
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: designer dogs. And then the old days that were free
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: and now they eight grand.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: Oh. Yeah, they they're pricey, pricey little gems.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Not giving those noodles away, are they?
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: No? Tell us about your middle name, maddi Ama, tell
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: us about that.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, my middle name is well, my heritage is Iranian.
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  Speaker 4: Both my parents were born there and my mother's aunt
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: was named Matty Am and she had a very significant
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: caretaking role for my mother. So she loved her, and
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: so she wanted to honor her by making my middle
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  Speaker 4: name her name.
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  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: I love that, all right, So are you ready to
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: put on your clinical psychologist hat?
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: I mean, if I must, I will bang some questions
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: out young and a bang to feel free, also to
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: bang a question.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: I know you to go together recently behind my back.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: I'm not upset at all.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: That's fine, that's fine.
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: I talked about you the whole time.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Craig, I saw it online. I was only a little
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: bit hurt.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: Really. I met Tiff through you, obviously, but I met
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: her in person when we were at the gym together.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: And did you trying together to tip punch you in
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  Speaker 2: the face? What was the no?
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: She was she was working out at the same time,
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: and I don't think we've had the pleasure of training
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: together yet. Maybe that's something for the future.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: I'm working towards it.
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, let's do that. I just had to get to
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: the gym in order to do that, so that helps.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: That helps.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: It does actually be there.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: I'm on the dog front. Can I just say, mind,
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: client has an assistant dog that I that was in
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: today for the second time, and you know how much
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: self control it takes. It's like the dogs looking at
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: me and I'm looking at the dog and we're both
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  Speaker 3: going neither of us allowed to because you got your
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  Speaker 3: jacket on.
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  Speaker 1: It's hard.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: So you meant did you say I thought you said
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: an assistant You meant was an assistant dog? Right right,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: right right? I thought assistant like the dog was. I
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: thought the dog was taking notes while you two were
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  Speaker 2: training and just sending emails. Wow. Can I ask.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: So just to kind of is it without giving away
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  Speaker 1: anything you can't So for that particular client, is it
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  Speaker 1: like one of like a companion help me stay calm dog?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, so it's so they it's a PTSD so for
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  Speaker 3: anxiety and mental health. They're incredible animals. But yeah, it's
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: like they're still animals, but you think they're like this
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: or they are highly trained, but they're there with their
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: jacket on, looking at you so that you'll invite them
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  Speaker 3: and they know they're not allowed, and I on loud
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: and we're most just like this. It would have been
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  Speaker 3: like the jacket comes off and it's like Craig Harper
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: rolling around on the floor.
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  Speaker 2: That's the best.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Just rub my tummy, it would have been. Yeah, that
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  Speaker 1: will be difficult for you. I did a gig a
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: few years ago, quite a few years, maybe five, And
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: this is how long it was ago. I can't remember.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not meant to say, but it was. It
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: was a group of police officers dealing with PTSD. You
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: might know about this. Maybe you were the segue to this.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure, because I know you've done stuff with
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: the cops as.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Well as I have. But so it was a bunch of.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Past and current police officers who have experienced PTSD, and.
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  Speaker 2: So they have this group.
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  Speaker 1: But there was twenty of them, give or take, and
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: about a dozen of them had their dogs. They have
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: therapy dogs or comfort dogs or companion whatever with them.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Do you think I could fucking concentrate.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Right?
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  Speaker 1: I'm like, this is this is like, you know, you
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: can't you can't ask me to just stand up here
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: and be focused. I can't do my job. But also
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: the same thing, but I spoke to I spoke to
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: you know. Obviously, I did my presentation and we did
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: an interaction and group Q and A. But then we
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: kind of let our metaphoric hair down and fucked around
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: a little bit. But those dogs are incredible, and is
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: there is there? I mean off the question without notice,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: doc like obviously for some people, depending on I mean,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: if you hate dogs, then dogs are not therapeutic. But
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: who hates dogs? But animals can be like a therapy
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: all by themselves.
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: Right, Absolutely, I do therapeutic tool absolutely for sure, and
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  Speaker 4: they help with a whole range of things, like even
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: just the basic just having a companion, just like with loneliness. Yeah,
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: but I think that they do have this kind of
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: calming effect on people as well, So it doesn't have
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: to be a therapy dog to be therapeutic.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I was asked, I was talking yesterday or the day
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: before toe if I don't know, I do too many podcasts,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: but we were talking about the pros and cons of
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: AI becoming And I use this word in inverted commas
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  Speaker 1: a friend or a companion something because it's evolving so
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: quickly and its linguistic capabilities or language capabilities, and we
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: know it's not a human to human conversation, but it
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: is a version of a conversation because you can ask
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: it questions and ants. It'll ask you how you're feeling,
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  Speaker 1: it'll compliment you. Even with chat GPT, I'll ask a question,
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  Speaker 1: it'll go great question, Craig, it uses my name and
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  Speaker 1: it compliments me. Which is why now in my top
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: five friends, which I've mentioned a few times on the show,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: your thoughts from a psychological and emotional health point of
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: view people building this kind of relationship, Like, clearly it's
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: not a human to human relationship, but if people feel
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  Speaker 1: less stressed and anxious because they can interact with this
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  Speaker 1: whatever it is, with this kind of intelligence, what are
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: the pros and cons? And I mean, I know you
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: haven't done research on this, but just as a psychologist.
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  Speaker 4: This is actually a really timely topic. Because I went
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: to a talk today about emerging technology just out of interest.
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  Speaker 4: It wasn't necessarily related to my worker healthcare, although it
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: obviously has healthcare implications. But like you said, technology is,
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: you know, being developed at a rapid way, and right
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  Speaker 4: now it's AI and generative AI that are what's exciting
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  Speaker 4: people now, what people are starting to use, and the
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  Speaker 4: questions you're asking are really important because I think that
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  Speaker 4: you know, with every benefit, there's also a limitation and
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  Speaker 4: a potential problem. So like in terms of what you
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: were saying for like, if you know, thinking about just
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: having access, So accessibility is probably the main benefit, Like
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  Speaker 4: everybody can have access to something like chat GBT. Everybody
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  Speaker 4: can ask, you know, these open AI sources questions about
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  Speaker 4: a range of topics, whether it's health or mental health
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  Speaker 4: or flights or you know, like the best where program
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  Speaker 4: to use whatever. And so that's I think a really
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  Speaker 4: helpful thing. However, I suppose in terms of some of
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  Speaker 4: the limitations or issues to be aware of is knowing
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  Speaker 4: like what what data is being put in to that
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  Speaker 4: open source, because what's put in is what's coming out,
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  Speaker 4: So do we know that it's good data? I'm the
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  Speaker 4: woman that was talking today for instance, she said, I
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: guess it's a phrase like crap in, crap out. You
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  Speaker 4: know what data is being put in? What are the
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  Speaker 4: biases of that data? Who's in control of the company
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  Speaker 4: that put for instance chat ept out? Do they have biases?
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  Speaker 4: Do they where are they get their stuff from? And
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: really being aware of that, and sometimes you you would
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  Speaker 4: only know if the data is good if you're a
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: subject matter expert in that area, Like for instance, if
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: I go in and I want to ask it a
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  Speaker 4: research or a psych psych question, and not just to
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  Speaker 4: make my life easier and more efficient. I'll just I'll
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  Speaker 4: stick something in there and I'll give me something back,
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  Speaker 4: and I'll be able to look at that information and
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  Speaker 4: I'll be able to say, oh, that part is good data,
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: like yes, yes, it's saying it in the way that
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  Speaker 4: I want to say, which is the helpful part. Right,
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  Speaker 4: So I don't have to think through and like spend
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: an hour like trying to write something for instance, but
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  Speaker 4: I can tell when it's giving me good information and
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  Speaker 4: not good information because I'm a subject matter expert in psychology,
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  Speaker 4: so I can have that critical eye, whereas somebody who
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: doesn't have that background might not. No, and I've definitely
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: had that experience with chat EBT where it's lied to me.
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you've had that experience or not.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Well, even sometimes i'll simon as you, I'll I'll talk
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: something in that I know the answer to, because I
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: just want to see what it says, you know, And
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: it's especially especially in relation to my PhD, because I've
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: spent five years researching you know, a drop of water
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: in an ocean of kind of science, you know, and
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: so there's probably not a heap of people in the
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: world who know more than I do at this point
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: in time about what I'm researching. And then and it's
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: taking from a very generic, broad not necessarily accurate pool
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: of information, and some of the answers that come back,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: not only are they incorrect, they're wildly incorrect, like it's
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: actually talking about something else, it's defining a different term.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Or something like that.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: But Yeah, I think, and you know, it's not going away.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: I mean that, and neither I guess does it need to?
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: I think we need to figure out how we're going
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: to coexist with with actual knowledge and data and biological
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: kind of an artificial and technological reality side by side,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: because it doesn't matter how much we jump up and
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: down about the perils of technology and AI and social media.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: None of it's going away even if we want it to.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: So I guess we need to figure out how is
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: the best way that we interface with it, if at all. Yeah,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: and self manage, like, how do I manage me my mind,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: my body, my emotions, myself with a capital S in
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: the middle of all of this shit that you know
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: may or may not be helpful to me.
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: That's right, and I think that's probably why if we're
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: thinking about what the education system should start developing more,
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: it's things like critical analysis skills. Yeah, it's things like
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: ethical uses of technology, even things like if you just
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: think about people going into university now and the types
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: of jobs that are going to be sought after in
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: the future. It's not just there's so much happening, Like
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: the talk that I went today just blew my mind,
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: Like it's not just AI's just like today's technology. Of course,
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: that to develop further over time, but there's and there's
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: also what's called spatial computing, which is things like virtual reality,
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: augmented reality, metaverse stuff that's also has already emerged and
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: is being developed. But the thing that's coming. I don't
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: know if you've heard of this. You probably have because
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: you've talked to talk to everybody and people who know
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: much more about this than I do, because I literally
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: just listen to a talk today. But it's called quantum computing.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: Have you talked to someone about that.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we've done a couple of episodes on it.
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty crazy, like what these computers are going
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: to be able to do in the next potentially ten years,
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: maybe even less than that. There's a lot of implications
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: for that in the future and what we need our
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: current I guess eighteen year olds studying is not just
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: computer science, but like all of the other like having
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: this type of lens on whatever they're doing. So if
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: it's psychology, if it's law, if it's politics, if it's
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: you know, marketing, like everything, you kind of need to
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: know like what you're going to be facing in regard
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: to these kinds of emerging technologies over the next ten years.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: And also just trying to differentiate between doc between what
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: is real and what is what is something that's been produced,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: because you know, the videos, the video and the audio
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: and the pictures that are being artificially created now are
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: so good that's I mean.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: They're so good that you can't tell.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: And so my training partner, the Crab, who's also old
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: as fuck like me, but probably not quite. I'm no
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: tech guru, but I'm light years I'm fucking Steve Jobs
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: compared to him.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Well that's not true, Steve Jobs.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Instead, you know, like I'm somewhat ahead of him just
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: because of my work, right, And he'll often send me
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: a video and it's not real, and I can see
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: in like ten or twenty seconds that I'll know somebody
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: created this. This is not real, but for somebody, and
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: you know, and I'm behind Tiff and TIFFs behind the
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: sixteen year old, right or whatever.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: But we're all down the line.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: But it's becoming harder and harder to figure out what is,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: what is real, and what is not real. And I
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: think that's going to be you know where, like even
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: probably two months ago, Patrick who's our tech guy we
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: do every fortnight, we do a tech show with him,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: and one episode he said to me, as we started
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: the show, just like we have now, he said something like,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: it's not fair that you always get to introduce the show,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: and I said, well, this is on air, right, I said, well,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: you introduced the show, and then he proceeded to play
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: this thing that he'd created, which was my voice.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: And his words, wow, right, And I.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Mean I could discern obviously I knew it wasn't me, yeah,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: but the way that it was put together, and he
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: put it together very quickly, it was just my voice
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: that he'd scripted some sentences for.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: And like if my mum heard that, there's no way
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: that she wouldn't think that that was me talking.
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly, and that's I mean, there are already
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: scams about that now orl yeah and yeah, the future
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: of identity is like a big thing.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Well that's why they say.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Now you need to have a key question or you know,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: so if your kids ring and go mom, I'm stuck somewhere,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: I need you to wire me a thousand bucks, or
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: you need to have a pre arranged question or kind
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: of work right, something safe word or yeah, all right,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I want to jump off ai because we probably flogged
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: a bit too much on this show. So question one
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: for you in the realm of your area of expertises.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: And I know there's not a categoric question to this,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: but I just want your thoughts around this. Is happiness
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: a good goal? Is happiness? Is that a smart goal?
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Or is there a better state that we should own for.
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: I actually wrote an article several years several years ago
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: called the pursuit of happiness is ruining our lives?
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Wow, I like it.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: Good question then, OK, yeah, I guess of course the
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: state of happiness is pleasant and we all, you know,
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: like we all want that and want that as much
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: as possible, but to have it as a goal, It
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: kind of implies that it's a destination that you can
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: reach and stay at, which so it's that's problematic because
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: we know that happiness is one of many of the
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: emotions that humans experience, and we know that emotions are fleeting,
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: they're not static. Yeah, And so if you think that
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: happiness is something that you can achieve, then you're probably
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: going to be unhappy most of the time.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: And do you think that if, like without being sad
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: or without being stressed or anxious, or without having bad
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: days or bad moments or bad hours, that like, if
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: there was a way to hit that emotional and psychological
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: peak of happiness and we stayed there eventually, it's not
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: a peak, it's just a flat line. And if you're
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: flat lining, you did right. It's because there's no like,
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: do we need that contrast of sadness and pain and
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: anxiety and to be able to experience happiness like or
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: is it kind of like you know with the dopamine
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: thing where you eat some chocolate and give you a
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: certain response or cocaine or whatever it is, and then
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: over time you need more and more to get the
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: same response.
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: That's interesting. I guess we're never going to know the
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: answer to that question, because it's not possible to achieve
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: that state. But I think the way that I look
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: at it is anything that we do that is meaningful,
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: any pursuit that we have that gives meaning to our lives,
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: comes with the full range of emotions. So even like
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: the things that we want really bad, I'll use like
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: an example that a lot of people can relate to,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: Like we might want to have children, Right, that's a
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: fairly common desire for a lot of people. So we
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: want it really bad, But are we actually expecting that
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: that's going to give us happiness and joy all the time?
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: It isn't, and we actually know that, right. So when
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: you if you do have kids, I have a couple,
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: the first thing you notice is that you've got a
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: wave of anxiety that's washed over you. That's probably not
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: ever going to leave, right, Like, it's just part of
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: being a parent. So and it's just it's the same
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: for like being in a relationship. Do you think that
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: being in a relationship is going to make you happy
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: all the time, Because if you do, you're not going
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: to be very satisfied, Like you're going to be you know,
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: very dissatisfied and disillusioned. And you know your job, like
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: pursuing the work that you do, is that going to
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: make you happy all the time? No, Like, sometimes you're
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: going to be stressed, sometimes you're going to be anxious,
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: sometimes you're going to be disappointed. And so we kind
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: of need to understand like what the human experience is
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: and accept and expect the full range of that rather
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: than kind of idea of we have to have positive
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: self talk every second of the day, or something's wrong
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: with us, or we have to feel only the pleasant
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: emotions or something's wrong with us. All of our emotions,
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: whether they're pleasant or unpleasant, are functional and they serve
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: a function. And yes they can be dysfunctional as well.
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: But it's really helpful, even just as a lens or
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: a mindset to kind of just know all of your
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: emotions are valid and okay, you can accept them like
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: that instead of judging yourself for having them. Then you're
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: going to you are going to be much happier and
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: more content overall.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Relationships are interesting because I think some people think that
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: being in a relationship is a solution to a problem,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: and it's I think sometimes people are more enough some people.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: There's my disclaim. I'm more in love with the idea
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: of being in a relationship than the actual person they're
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: in the relationship with, you know, because and they want
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: to be in And obviously I'm not against relationships, of course,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I'm not against marriage, you know. But it's like, I
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: don't know that being in a relationship at all costs
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: is well, I don't think it's a great idea.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: It's a great idea for some.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: And it's also like I think it's you might be
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: with a person and it's nirvana. You be with another person,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: it's a fucking toxic nightmare. Like so it's it ain't
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: just about in or out of a relationship, Like there
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: are a lot of variables around that. But I see
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: back to your kind of you know, it's what people
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: think they will like. There's the thing that people want,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: the what and what they think it will bring them,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: you know. So it's like people want to be in
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: a relationship because clearly no one wants that because they
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: think they're going to be more miserable, so they think
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: that will bring them happiness, joy fulfillment, security, whatever. Or
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: people want to be leaner because they think that'll bring
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: them X Y Z or they want a bigger income, right,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong with that. We all do that.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: We have this expectation and this correlation in our mind
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: of if I get.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: X, then why will be the product? I mean, for years,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: all I wanted to do.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Is look amazing because I was this wildly insecure, ex
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: fat kid, and I thought if I had an awesome body,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: then I'd be awesome. You know, I thought if I
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: had a great body, I'd be I didn't articulate it
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: this way, but I know looking back how I thought, Well,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: I'd be more emotionally and psychologically I'd be fine. I'd
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: be more attractive to someone. I wouldn't have all the
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: bullshit issues that I had because I'd now be walking
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: around in a great body. And then I got to
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: the point where for me, I had a relatively good
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: body and all my bullshit was still there because I
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: was trying to resolve emotional and psychological issues with bigger shoulders.
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, it's a hard life and to learn,
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: isn't it. I was having a conversation with one of
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: my clients recently about this, and she has, you know,
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: and a lot of my clients in the past have
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: had similar issues with body image and this kind of
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: focus on weight and that being a sign of their worth.
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: And even though intellectually they know that your weight doesn't
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: equal your worth, emotionally it.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Does, yes.
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: And what I've gotten clients to do over the years
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: is write down what they think the characteristics of someone
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: with high self esteem is right, and what's happened. And
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: you know, you never know what's going to happen when
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: you ask somebody to do something like that, But what's
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: actually happened every time I have is they'll come up
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: with a list and it'll be things like, can assert
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: their feelings confidently, well, don't care what other people think,
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: accepts their flaws, like all sorts of things like that.
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: Not one of the things is how the person looks.
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: Not one of the things is must have blonde hair,
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: blue eyes, be skinny, like. It's not ever one of
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: those things. So it's like it's almost like they don't
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: realize that they're actually wanting self worth and self esteem
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: and to accept themselves, and they think that achieving a
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: certain weight is going to give them that. Like you said,
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: it doesn't give you that because that's not one of
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: the characteristics of someone with high self esteem.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: And I think that's when we set a goal. You know,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: we talk about the thing that we want, and we
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: I think we subconsciously think that that will be the
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: conduit or the pathway to the thing we really want.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: You know, nobody goes what you go, Oh, my goal
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: is better self esteem and more confidence, right, you know,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: But their goal is to earn this orund or look
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: like that because they think that emotional change or that
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: psychological that internal shift will be the byproduct of that
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: external thing, you know.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: And like with me, I got.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: To the point where I had you know, like successful
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: businesses and stuff, and I won't go through this again.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: But you get to the point and you go, oh,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: and now what, like I'm still a dickhead, or I'm
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: still insecure, I'm still not whatever. But I think, I
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: don't know if that's just something that happens over time
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: where you have to fall down and get up, or
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: you need to get to the top of the mountain
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: and go, oh fuck this, I climbed the wrong mountain.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: But that mountain over there, or maybe it's that mountain,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: But I also think, like you're not like this is
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: a conversation I had as well with the person I'm
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: thinking of and people in the past. It's not even
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: like the list of things that are characteristics of someone
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: with self esteem, they're not static things, right, Like, a
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: person with high self esteem is still going to feel
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: insecure sometimes, is still going to make mistakes, it's still
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: going to take things personally, it's still going to care
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: about what other people think sometimes. Like, it's not absolute,
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: and so I think, again, we don't want to set
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: people up to achieve this kind of this idea of
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: self esteem or self worth being being like you are
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: one hundred percent confident all the time and you never
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: experience any insecurities and you're never anxious about anything. It's like,
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: that's not real, that's not reality.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: That's a great point.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: That's a great point because I know that I can
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: simultaneously feel not good enough but know that I am.
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: Yes, that is the trick. That is literally, I think
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: the trick for like, if you want people to feel
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: psychologically healthy, to be able to hold both of those
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: ideas as true, I think is really helpful. There's this
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: therapy called dialectical behavior therapy. It was developed by Marshall
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: Lenehan in the early nineties, maybe late eighties, early nineties,
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: particularly for people with severe emotion dysregulation and who tended
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: who were often chronically suicidal, So people who were potentially
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: self harming a lot, just like very out of control
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: and disregulated in lots of areas of their life. But
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: one of the things, in terms of I'm sorry, just
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: to give you some background, like this is a therapy
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: that I've studied and I've helped people with those sorts
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: of issues as part of my practice as a psychologist
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: over the years. But what I found was that there's
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: kind of a couple parts of the therapy. One is
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: the individual therapy where you help motivate person to keep going.
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: And then there's the skills training part of the therapy,
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: which is about teaching core skills. But one of the
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: core skills is really this kind of that mindset piece
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: of life, like understanding what dialectics are. And so it's
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: exactly what you were saying before. It's like this idea
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: of there can be two opposites that are true at
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: the same time, and the reality of the world we
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: live in is that that is what that's what is true.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: So if you can hold this idea and the kind
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: of the main dialectic of the therapy is acceptance and change,
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: so you can accept yourself fully the way you are
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: and you can know that you can do better at
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: the same time, so you're helping people. And you know,
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: initially it was just for people at kind of the
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: severe end of the spectrum. But what's been discovered over
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: time and certainly and when I've delivered treatment and therapy
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: to people, is these ideas are great for everybody across
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: the board, even people who don't have clinical problems. I
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: just think these types of skills in this type of mindset.
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: It took even a while for me, even though I
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: was teaching it to my clients, it took a while
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: for it to click in for me. How true that is?
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: And I guess I had this experience once on a
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: I was on a cruise. I was actually hired to
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: do this workshop for staff on a crew on a
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: cruise and I got so I got to go on
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: a cruise for free, which is great with my family.
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: But there was one morning where it was before I
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: was running a workshop, and I was like by myself
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: on the deck and it was this beautiful, like very calm,
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: serene morning, and I was just looking over the water
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: and I was thinking, Wow, this is like so beautiful
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: and peaceful and amazing. And at the same time, I
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: was realizing we were like in the middle of the
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: South Pacific and there was water in every direction and
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: nothing else, like there was no land anywhere, And so
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: at the moment, at the same moment, I was feeling
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: peace and serenity, as I's also like a little unsettled. Hm,
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: You're like, we're in the middle of nowhere. Something happens
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: right now, there's nobody like that's going to be able
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: to help us, because we're like literally in the middle
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: of South Pacific. So it was like, even in that moment,
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: it's like, but I can hold both of those things
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: at the same time. I can still feel that piece
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: in serenity, and I can also feel that sense of
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: like a little bit of anxiety sitting there. And if
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: you can hold both and tolerate that, I think you'll
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: feel more content and more stable overall.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an that's an ever present reality,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: or you know, a frequent reality for people, like the
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: juxtaposition or the seemingly opposing constructs that I talk about
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: is being simultaneously content and ambitious because they seem like opposites.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Whereas in the moment when I.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Think about my life, my mum and dad, my friends,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: my work, I'm very grateful and content. Yeah, at the
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: same time I'm ambitious, but there's no anxiety wrapped around it.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: It's like, and there're things that I want to do
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: and learn and do. I want to grow and evolve
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: and do more stuff I do. But in the moment,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: day to day, do I have a sense of gratitude
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: and awareness that I'm pretty fucking blessed in my life?
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Is amazing? I do.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: So I don't, like you said, I don't think it
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: needs to be one or the other. You know that
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: that kind of even with me, I think I'm I'm
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: for the most part content, But is there ever low
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: level anxiety? Yeah?
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And it's very analogous to that concept of
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: acceptance and change. And sometimes you know, like for people
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: who have very low self worth and so like the
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: underlying belief is like I'm a failure or I'm worthless,
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: and like the kind of there's a few different ways
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: that you can, you know, guide people through that, and
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: one of the ways is like kind of the cognitive
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: behavioral way, which is, you know, look at the thought,
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: where is the evidence for the thought? Challenge the thought,
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: modify the thought, practice the new thought. That's kind of
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: like the abolition of that, And that can work for
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: a lot of people. But sometimes I say, you know what,
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: what if you were a failure and a success, like,
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: can't you just can you be both? Because I think
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: that that actually represents the reality for everybody, Like we
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: all are failures and we all are a success all
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: at the same time.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I often do
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: wrong and people like me often do wrong. And I'm
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: speaking in huge general lifezations here everyone, So if it's
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: not you ignore this. But I think in the self
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: help slash personal development slash think better, do better, be
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: better space right that you know, there's this mindset of
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: constant and never ending improvement, of perpetual growth and learning
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: and evolution and development. And one that's not realistic, and
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: two it's also fucking exhausting.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: It's okay to have a day.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Where you just goof off and produce fucking nothing. Yes,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: you know, And it's like when people go to me,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: what are you up to today? Even I still feel
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: compelled to give them a bit of a shopping list
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: of all the amazing shit I've got on and it's
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: just sometimes it's not true. I go, I've got fucking
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna I might wash some clothes. Then I'll see
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: where I go from there. You know, so big day.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: And I say that sometimes I don't know why people
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: are surprised I wash my own clothes, like I'm some
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: fucking movie star that can't use a washing mission. But
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: I think giving ourselves permission to have, you know, as
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: long as it's not a thousand days in a row,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: but days where we're not productive, we're not absolute right,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: we're not producing great outcomes. We maybe made a few
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: fucking dumb decisions. We may be said on the couch
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: with a box of pizza. It's like, it's not the
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: end of the world.
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: You know, I totally agree with you. I have so
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: many clients that are like really driven people, and that's great, right,
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: achieving things, growing, accomplishing, But it's not great necessarily if
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: your belief is you must be productive or you are
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: worthless yes, or you are doing the wrong thing yes,
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: And so part of what I help them understand and
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: realize if they want to. Is that exactly what you
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: just said, You know, challenge that belief. Where are you
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: getting that from? A lot of people are getting that
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: from how they grew up, right, the messages from their
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: families of origin, the people who are taking care of them.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: There are maybe in generations before maybe that was a
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: more pervasive belief and it still is obviously, but that
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: if you you must be productive, you must be doing
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: something productive all the time. Yeah, And we internalize those
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: beliefs and then we live those beliefs, even if it's
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: not serving us, and it's like, well, maybe have a
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: look at your beliefs and see if that's how you
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: want to live your life and if it's healthy for you,
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: and if it's taking you down you know, the roads,
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: the paths that you want to actually go down. And
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: I feel like I'm really good at doing nothing. I
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: have no problem doing nothing, and I have no problem
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: telling people I'm doing nothing. And you know, the more,
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of days where I come home, if
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: I'm working outside the home, I'll come home and I'll
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: as soon as I get home, I put my pajamas.
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: I don't want to go anywhere and do anything. If
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: I want to sit down on the couch for two hours.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: I have like zero guilt about that. But that's not
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: the case for most people, I don't think. I think
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: a lot of people struggle with just even sitting and
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: doing nothing for ten minutes or like thirty and it's
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: just like, yeah, it's like even just that's a practice
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: that people can experiment with a little bit more and
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: see if they can tolerate being uncomfortable with not being productive,
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: even if it's just for a few minutes.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: I feel like when I talk to a lot of
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: people about their goals in the next one two five
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: years of their life and what they want to change
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: in the short, medium, long term, when you get through
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: the kind of the the obvious stuff, I want more
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: of this and less less of that, or I'd like
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: to achieve this or tick that box, or i want
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: to undo this healthy habit, or like a lot of
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: what people want when for me, anyway, when we get
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: down to it, is they just want to be less anxious.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: It seems like everyone is anxious and they want of course,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: they want to make dough and you know, be physically
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: healthy and all of that, but like so many people just.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Want calm calm. It's like, I just want to be calm.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: I can't. I worry about everything. I worry about this,
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: I worry about that.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: And then when there is nothing to worry about, then
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: they create something to worry about because something might happen
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: in the future. It's not happening now, but in case
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: it does happen in the future, I've got to prepare
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: for it now.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: And oh my god.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: And it's like, really, it ain't about things. It's about
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: it ain't about anything really external. It's a bit maybe,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: but it's really more about that internal state. And I
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: know this sounds cheesy, but you know that emotional and
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: psychological and spiritual bank balance, you know, rather than the
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: stuff because how many people do you know, tif No,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: I know that from the outside looking in, you would
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: call them by all normal conventions like successful. You go, wow,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: they're successful. And what we're saying is they're making lots
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: of money, they're successful, or they're doing great in their career,
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: or you know, they're ticking all these boxes and that
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: obviously that's not a bad thing. But does that equate
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: to joy and happiness and calmness and contentment? And you know,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: maybe maybe not. I think for a lot of people,
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: the answer is is not.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: Oh, and definitely the research is showing that it isn't.
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: I mean, like you said, anxiety is skyrocketing, and that's
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: across the board, like from the really young people, youth
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: is probably skyrocketing even more than everybody else, but more
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: and more. Like I talk to a lot of business owners,
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: I'm around them a lot and more and more it's
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: I can't sleep, I can't my mind is racing all
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: the time. I feel stressed. My life is out of balance. So, yes,
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: they might be really successful and financially, but they're not
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: feeling intent, they're not enjoying their life. And so what
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: is the measure of success really when we think about it,
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: is that it's having a contentment and joy and fun
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: and good relationships. And if you are focused on kind
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: of just one version of success, which is often that
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: press desion, status and money aspect, you are not paying
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: attention to the other parts. And the other parts are
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: the ones that actually will make you happy or help
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: you feel content most of the time.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Do you think in general terms that being
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: more resilient, whatever that means, but being more mentally and
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: emotionally resilient, it equates too less anxiety generally.
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: Well, I think with resilience, from what I know about resilience,
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: the way to have high resilience you kind of need
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: three factors. One is like good, solid, positive, supportive relationships
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: is number one, and then the second is like your mindset,
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: like how much you believe in yourself and your capabilities.
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: And then the third is like the skills that you need.
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: And so if you have those relationships in place, if
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: you believe in yourself and that, and you know that
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: you're capable of doing things that you want to do,
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: and if you have the skills or people around you
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: who can model those skills that you need to achieve
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: what you want in life, then you will be less anxious.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: So they are I think they're definitely related to each other.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like this is my theory. You can't
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: really build resilience when you always choose the easy option,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: right like, when you always take the comfortable, the quick fix,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: the alleged painless, the magic pill, the reward without work option,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: you're not really building resilience because you're not doing anything hard. Yes, Now,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I don't think life needs to be a perpetual slog
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: or battle. But it's like saying I want to build
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: physical strength, but I'm not going to work against resistance.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to lift any weights, I'm not going
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: to go to the gym, I'm not going to sweat well.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: How you get strong physically is literally working against resistance.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: And I feel like how you build mental and emotional
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: strength or resilience or grits or you know, these are
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: interchangeable terms to an extent as it you have to
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: be able to in an intelligent, not reckless, but intelligent way,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: expose yourself to a level of stress, you know, so
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: that you can, like if you avoid pressure always.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Then how the fuck can you perform under pressure?
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And life is pressure and some people are not going
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: to like you, and some things are not going to
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: work out, and even if you're a great person, bad
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: things will happen to you because that's the human experience.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: And if we're always you know, mum or Dad's always
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: molly coddling us, or we're always like the skills that
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: you talk of, I agree, But where.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: The fuck do they come from?
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Like they have to come Like, how do you learn
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: to be good at something that you never do?
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: How do you overcome your fear of speaking in public.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: It's by speaking in public's right, Yeah, yeah, muscles. Yeah.
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: The main treatment for anxiety is it's called exposure therapy,
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: so it literally is what you're saying. And I think
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: that that is a really important skill to impart to
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: young people, you know, like children from a very early age.
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: It is like when you're scared of something, unless it's
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: actually dangerous or unsafe, approach it. If you approach things
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: that you're afraid of, that if it goes well, you
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: build confidence. If it doesn't go well, you build resilience.
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: So it's a win win sure, and then the next
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: time you do it it'll be even less anxiety provoking,
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: and the next time even less so. And like you said,
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: if you can do that, you build resilience and you're
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: less anxious over time. But at the same time, you
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: have to expect a certain level of stress and anxiety
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: in your life because that's just been a human Yeah.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: I think just about in general with people, you know, kids,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: grown ups. You know the idea of like kids playing
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: on monkey bars. Yep, someone's going to break an arm Yep,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: that's going to happen. So do we ban monkey bars.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: Do we never let children climb a tree? And I
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: know there's an element of risk, and I know, but
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: I wonder, and I'm not stating anything, I'm wondering out loud,
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: what is the cost of.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Nurfing the world with kids?
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Of course you want to protect them, of course to
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: a point, But then where's the line and how much
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: do you let them fall down and learn and make mistakes?
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, you came last in the race,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: and that's okay. We love you, you're awesome, but you
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: came last. And it's okay that you came last. We're
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: not going to pretend that you didn't. Like It's to
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: me that stuff where because when you leave the parental nest,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: you're going to come last at something. You're going to
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: fuck up, you're going to get embarrassed, you're going to
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: be you're going to get rejected, you're going to like
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: And if we're not teaching kids about this when they're kids,
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: while still loving them and protecting them, I'm like, you know,
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: if they come out of the nest at eight nine
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: and twenty and then they got pushed out into a
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: reality they're ill prepared for.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fucking that's dangerous too.
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's actually really important for kids to learn how
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: to feel their emotions, identif by their emotions, express their emotions,
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: validate their emotions, and so we're protecting them from disappointment
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: or embarrassment. Then they don't learn how to manage those
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: emotions and maybe even think that they're wrong to have
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: them in the first place. Like your example of like
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: coming last, I think this is something like, I mean,
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: I'm sure I've done this too. Like you don't want
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: to see your kids disappointed, so you might say, oh,
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: you know, it's you know, it's fine, or you know,
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: or this happened and that's why you came last. You
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: make excuses for it or whatever. But the child knows
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: they came last. So in some ways you're invalidating their experience,
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: their experiences that they came last, and they're disappointed by that.
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: But then you come in and you try to, you know,
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: like you said, make it better, and so they don't
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: get to express how disappointed they are because the message
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: they're getting is I shouldn't feel sad or disappointed, or
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: there's these other reasons why this.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Occurred, or it's okay though it's oh you're disappointed.
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: That's okay, Yes, exactly, it is okay to be it's actually, yeah,
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: it makes sense for you to be disappointed when you
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: come last. Actually, it does make sense. It's a painful emotion,
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: but it makes sense.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: Well, this is coming from a kid too, an next
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: kid that came last a lot, like I came last
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: a lot. I would have stood there fifty sixty seventy
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: times as teams.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Were being picked.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and being the last one picked, and that wasn't
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of fun. But like, I know why I
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: was the last one picked because I was the worst athlete,
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: because I was morbidly obese.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: And I get it.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: And people go, oh my god, oh my god, but
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: I get it. It's like I, oh, okay, Craig Will,
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: I want good athletes. And at this point in you know,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: later on I lost some weight and I became an
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: okay athlete and things changed a bit. But I know
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: for me anyway, and don't I wouldn't recommend that to anyone,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: what I went through. And I understands it makes people
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: cringe and all of that, but and my experience, as
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: no one else's, I get all of that. But for me,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: it made me really fucking motivated. Eventually, eventually I got
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: to the point I went, oh, well, I'm going to
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: keep coming last, I'm going to keep getting embarrassed, I'm
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: going to keep being socially invisible.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: I'm going to fucking hell. And I could silk and winge.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: And complain, but at the end of the day, I
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: was the problem because I was the one eating all
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: the food.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: I was the one that you.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Know, my mum wasn't forced feeding me, you know, and
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: I was the one not exercising, and so you know,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: it was painful, but it was also for me. It
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: was it was also a lesson and I wouldn't want
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: any other kids to necessarily go through that. But at
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: the same time, I think that I don't know, like
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: a little bit of messiness and a little bit of discomfort,
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: and you know, and by the way, it's it's never
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: going to stop happening. So we need to teach kids
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: and grown ups how to cope.
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we do, and in lots of different ways. Like
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: you know, with my kids when they because they're they're
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: teenagers now, but you know, they when they turn like thirteen,
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: they start getting embarrassed by like everything. So like you
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: play the music too loud in the car with the
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: windows up, turn the music down, you know, like there's
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: and I like, so I will purposefully embarrass them, like
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: because I think it's good for them, and I will
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: tell them that. I'll be like, it's good for you
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: to be embarrassed. You need to practice like being embarrassed.
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: So I'll just and it's not like it's not being spirited,
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: it's like literally so that they are resilient with that
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: emotion because there's so much, so much time and energy
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: wasted on feeling awkward, embarrassed, anxious. And if they don't
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: learn how to tolerate that now, even though they get
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: super annoyed by it, then what is it going to
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: be like in the future. Like, I'd rather them just
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: learn to be embarrassed now as a lesson, and so
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: then I get to enjoy it as well. I get
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: to enjoy it embarrassing it from time to time.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: What about the idea of.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Parents who are like in Inverted Comma's best friends with
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: their kids?
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Is that a dumb idea? I don't know that.
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: I feel like I don't know. It's just depends on
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: what you mean by that.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: Well, you know how I've heard it moms say it
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: more than dad's. But I'll say with their you know,
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: by my daughter and I have best friends. I'm like, Okay,
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe that's a good idea. I just
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: I done well.
• 53:04
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think yeah, I think, gosh, I think
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: this is like a it's fraud. I think, like I
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: would like to think. But my daughter's seventeen. Now we
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: have a really open communicative relationship, but also a regular
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: mother daughter relationship where we get annoyed with each other
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff. When she's older, I
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: would like her to considering me a best friend. I
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: feel like when you're both adults and you've gone through things.
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: But I do say that it's not just that though
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: you're always going to be their mother, but potentially, and
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: I haven't gotten to this stage yet so I don't know,
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: but potentially, when as they get older, you're doing a
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: lot less mothering, so there's more room for the friendship
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: side to develop. What when they're children and adolescens, your
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: primary role is mother like guidance, boundary, lessons, and friendship
• 54:14
  Speaker 4: is if it's there, it's secondary. It can't be the primary.
• 54:19
  Speaker 4: Because I don't know it depends on what kind of
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: friends you have. Like you if your friendships are about
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: you know, advice giving and setting boundaries and you like
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: teaching lessons and stuff, maybe that's your version of friendship
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: and that's what it means to you. But I guess
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: I think that you can It's one of those things.
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: Maybe you can be both at the same time, but
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: at different stages of their development. One is going to
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: come out a lot more than the other.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Do you ever talk to your patients Do you call
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: them patients or clients?
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: Patients call them clients. Do you ever talk to your
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: clients about about their own thinking? You know, like metacognitive
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: like where you.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: Just oh when you think that.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: Do you ever hit the pause button then go wow,
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: where did that thought come from? Or why do I
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: think that? Or where did that belief come from? Does
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: that serve me or sabotage me?
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: You know, we try to understand our own mind and
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: the processes of our own mind, just to create a
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: bit of space between me and my mind, me and
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: my thoughts. Do you ever talk to people about that
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: kind of metacognitive kind of process.
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's kind of the foundation of most
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: of the therapy that I do. I would say it's
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: the foundation of cognitive behavioral therapy to be aware of
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: your thoughts, to challenge your thoughts potentially, to understand where
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: they come from, the origins of your thoughts, modify them. Also,
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: you know, a core skill is mindfulness, not of CBT
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: so much, but you know, the kind of third wave
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: CBT therapies like acceptance and commitment therapy and dialectical behavior
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: therapy include mindfulness as a core skill, and part of
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: that can be mindfulness of your thoughts. Like I've I recorded,
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: I record. I don't know if you know this, but
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: I've recorded like like three albums of relaxation and mindfulness
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: exercises over the years, and one of the ones that
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: I recorded is called mindfulness of thoughts like clouds in
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: the sky and what that. The purpose of that is
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: so that people can observe their thoughts non judgmentally and
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: so without trying to change anything. So so helping people understand,
• 57:00
  Speaker 4: like be able to see their thoughts from a distance
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: as an observer and not necessarily attached to them and
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: hold on to them or even engage them in any way,
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: not like not even challenge them or anything, just literally
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: just watching them go by, just like you might watch
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: the sky and see the clouds go by, or sometimes
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: people like to imagine like leaves on a stream. Sometimes
• 57:25
  Speaker 4: that can be extremely helpful for anxiety and stress management,
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: and especially the non judgmental peace of mindfulness. I think
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: that that's people often talk about mindfulness as being in
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: the present moment, which it is, but they're forgetting the
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: other part of it, which is the judgmental part. It's
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: observing things in the present moment nonjudgmentally. That makes it
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: a really helpful practice. And when you can do that,
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: and that's probably one of the hardest things to do,
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: then you can again to achieve I guess more emotional
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: and cognitive stability.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: Do you think people are.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Aware of the space between the thing that's happening and
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: their story about the thing that's happening, you know, like
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: the reality, the objective reality of the event or the
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: situation or the circumstance versus our interpretation of it. You know,
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: it's like when someone listens to me and I say fuck,
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: and they think I'm offensive than their experiences, they are offended. Yes,
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: when someone else hears the ex or is impacted by
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: the exact same stimulus me saying fuck, and they think
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: it's amusing their literal experiences. They're amused, right, and so
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: whatever their story is about that, I'm just using that
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: word because people can relate, you know, because people are
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: going to respond one way. Oh that's offensive, that's funny,
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: that's inappropriate, that's appropriate.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Oh that's craig, you know.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Like people have a story and then they believe their
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: story and that becomes their experience. So for them it's
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: not like, oh, this is just my personal response. They're like, no,
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: that is categorically offensive. No, bro, it's just offensive to
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: you because there's nineteen other people.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Who are not offended.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, is that kind of opening the door on becoming
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: more self aware of our own ability to create a
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: subjective experience in the middle of the objective whatever that's
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: going on.
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that your question about whether most people
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: are aware of that maybe not. Again, that's like a
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: foundational foundation of CBT is this idea that our thoughts
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: are what and our interpretations and our perspectives impact how
• 59:54
  Speaker 4: we feel and what we do. So if we understand
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: what the difference is between the facts of the situation, yes,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: and our interpretation of the facts. Yes, then we can
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: do a lot with how we not just the content
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: of what we think, but our patterns of thinking. Yes,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: it's not just like I'm like, I'm offended because you know,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: my beliefs or this or that, But it's also like,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: do I have a pattern of thinking that is full
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: of shoulds all or nothing? Black or white? Thinking? Over
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: generalizing all of these kinds of patterns that we all
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: have to some extent, But for some people they have
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: a lot more. And because they're not aware, they don't
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: realize how much it's impacting their life and how they
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: interact with the world and how and how it actually
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: impacts them internally.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: I think also too, when when you think so in
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: way about something, or you have a certain idea or
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: ideology or philosophy or belief about a certain thing and
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: you've believed that or you've thought that about that for
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: a very long time and you're sure about that, that
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: gets into woven with your identity. And so when I
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: challenge that thought or that idea, then for you, I'm
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: challenging your identity.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know so.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: And it's like the idea of being open minded is easy.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: The reality the reality is another thing.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: Right, totally. I agree with that, and for sure, like
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: there have been many times where I'm like, my thought
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 4: process has been more like I'm right or wrong. And
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 4: that's with awareness, right, that's with knowing.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: That's you being a clinical psychologist who's smart.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, and.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: I'm being willful right in that moment, I know that
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 4: I'm being wilful and stubborn and irrational at the same
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: time as I would like to express that I am
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: correct and you know nothing.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: And as I've said many times, when you think or
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: I think on a particular matter that I am unequivocally right,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: then I also believe concurrently that everyone in the world
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: who disagrees with me is wrong.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: No, that's a big stand.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: Hey, we've got to wind up because Tiff and I
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: have got another show in a little while. I wish
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: we had more time, but I love chatting with you.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: How can people connect with you, doctor Lillian.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: Well, they can have a look at the website Doctor
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: Liliannaja dot com and if they want to work on
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: their worries and anxiety can go to Contain your Brain
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: dot com.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: Awesome, we appreciate you. It's always fun chatting.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: To you great type of to you, guys.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: You've spain over there, just man handling. Oh I nearly
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: said something terrible, bear, and I wasn't even.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Trying to be funny.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: Craig her Cat exactly well exactly yes, Thanks TIV, Thanks guys.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: Bye,