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Democratizing Clean Energy with Gary Skulnik | EP240 · Clean Power Hour

• 0:50
  Gary Skulnik: People generally get very confused when they get their first bill, because, as you know, you often sign up for community solar and a project doesn't start immediately. You could be waiting a few months, even up to a year. So when people get that first bill, they're confused, not understanding and that's when you have the highest amount of people canceling to us, that's a exciting challenge we'd love to take on is, how do you communicate to the consumer from the moment they sign on until they get their first bill?
• 1:24
  intro: Are you speeding the energy transition here at the Clean Power Hour, our host, Tim Montague, bring you the best in solar, batteries and clean technologies every week. Want to go deeper into decarbonization.
• 1:35
  intro: We do too. We're here to help you understand and command the commercial, residential and utility, solar, wind and storage industries. So let's get to it together. We can speed the energy transition
• 1:51
  Tim Montague: today on the Clean Power Hour solar for everyone, not the select few, I'm Tim Montague, your host, please check out all of our content at cleanpowerhour.com Give us a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify that helps others find this content. My guest today is Gary Skulnik. He is the founder of neighborhood sun, a community solar platform. Welcome to the show, Gary,
• 2:14
  Gary Skulnik: thank you. Tim, it's great to be here.
• 2:17
  Tim Montague: Appreciate you coming on the show. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. Gary, how did you get interested in community solar?
• 2:24
  Gary Skulnik: Well, you know, the first thing I did in solar was back in 1979 I did a solar project for my science fair in elementary school. But skipping forward many years, I've been a clean energy advocate and activist and entrepreneur since the year 2000 you know, I saw climate change is a huge problem from back then, and to me, the biggest solutions were switching to clean energy, or, you know, switching our transportation system. I wanted to focus on clean energy. And so I helped passive legislation in Maryland, where I live, to promote clean energy. And then I founded a clean energy electric retailer called Clean currents. And you know, that was a great ride. For a little while, we sold we were really the first to sell 100% green power in the mid Atlantic.
• 3:24
  Gary Skulnik: We established some good things that others followed. We had 1000s of customers, but the issue with that was that it was always a premium. People had to pay extra for clean energy. And I was dreaming of the day we could have clean energy that is actually saving people money.
• 3:47
  Gary Skulnik: And we even tried. At some point, we sold our solar division to solar city, and we tried to do a little community solar project in Maryland with them, but without the proper regulations in place, it just didn't work out. Unfortunately, concurrence went under a few years later, fast forward to 2015 and I was helping pass community solar legislation in Maryland. We saw what was happening in Colorado, and tried to replicate it. We got it passed, and I was like, Eureka, this is my moment, because it fulfilled the dream of being able to sell clean energy that is a discount for people so saving money, and it also really filled my other desire, which is to sell local power. I didn't really like it that a lot of the clean energy products in the retail electric market were like wind farms from Texas and things like that, which is, you know, fine from a climate change perspective, but we have air pollution problems as well, and you can only solve those by switching to clean power in your local area. So that's how it got started in community solar,
• 5:02
  Tim Montague: yeah, I mean, at face value, it's very hard not to like community solar. You build a central array. These are one to 10 megawatt projects.
• 5:10
  Tim Montague: Generally, a one megawatt project could be as little as two acres and and then, you know, here in Illinois we have a five megawatt AC market. These are 30 or 40 acre solar farms, but, and then you're selling that power to subscribers who are business entities or individuals who don't necessarily want to install solar on their own facility, or have a shady roof, or don't own a building to put solar on. They could be renters. They could be apartment dwellers. And so it is a leveling of the playing field.
• 5:50
  Tim Montague: You. And what it takes, though is state legislation generally, so that there are some incentives to build this out.
• 6:00
  Tim Montague: The utilities aren't going to necessarily invite community solar into their state. You do have utilities like Florida Power and Light that claim that their portfolio of 75 megawatt projects is community solar, because the power is getting sold to consumers, but it's, it's not the same thing as true community solar, that's right, which is these distributed generation projects which are sprinkled across the landscape, you know, and literally, you know, you'll have dozens and dozens of these in in a large state, and, you know, a handful in a smaller state, maybe, but so and then and then. But it takes the state incentive right to offer consumers a discount, yeah, because we have very cheap power in many markets. You know, it's, it's, it's artificially cheap, because we're not paying the true cost, right, for all the pollution that we're generating with coal and natural gas, which is causing health, negative, health effects, and also, of course, climate change,
• 7:08
  Gary Skulnik: right?
• 7:09
  Tim Montague: And so we're just, I
• 7:10
  Gary Skulnik: mean, all, Tim, all energy sources get subsidized one way or the other.
• 7:12
  Gary Skulnik: Absolutely, you know, they it's not true that it's just clean energy. And also in the the energy market in the US is really 50 markets, plus the District of Columbia, and that's, I guess, it could be a benefit, but for solar entrepreneurs, it can also be a challenge, because you have to, you have to go state by state, as you just mentioned, some states don't have the right rules and regulations in place, so there's really not much we can do there. Some states have built great programs, and community solar is taking off, like New York and Illinois, Maryland. So we are, like a lot of the other Clean Energy folks, dependent on the will of the state and but you know, the good thing about community solar, unlike any other clean energy product, is it has a much broader array of support. It's not just the environmentalists, it's also social justice, energy, equity. You know, people advocating for the rights of people in poverty. It because it's, it's something that can benefit everybody, especially low and moderate income, people who would otherwise never be able to get access to solar.
• 8:30
  Gary Skulnik: Yeah,
• 8:32
  Tim Montague: it it's a great leveling of the playing field, yeah, so you also decided to become a B Corp, and I want to talk a little bit about that, and then maybe we'll tell the origin story of community solar here in the United States. So everyone is up to speed on that.
• 8:49
  Tim Montague: But why did neighborhood sun or why did you choose to become a B Corp? And what is B Corp? Sure?
• 8:59
  Gary Skulnik: So it actually started when I was lobbying in Annapolis, Maryland for the queen power standard that we eventually passed. And it was one of those things where you had every single business group opposing this legislation, and I knew that that couldn't be the case, that there had to be some businesses that actually would support this, and the lobbyists for the utilities would tell me, oh, Gary, you don't understand.
• 9:27
  Gary Skulnik: You're just an environmentalist.
• 9:27
  Gary Skulnik: This business can't work this way. You can't make a profit with this. And I thought they were completely wrong. So I when I founded clean currents, my original company, I founded it as a company with the purpose to do good in society, not just make a profit, but also support our people, the employees, all the communities. We did that for a few years, and then I found out that there's this thing called a B Corp that incorporates exactly that. So B Corps are businesses that are dedicated to not just profit, but also supporting all stakeholders, which means, obviously the shareholders, but also the employees, the community where you operate, the customers and the partners. So it really had a big appeal to me, because I think that's the way business should be done. You know, every company should be a B Corp. So then when I found the neighborhood, son, of course, we became a B Corp from day one, and it's just, you know, to me, it's a better type of company, and also it's competitive with nonprofits. Because, you know, sometimes people say, Oh, I don't want to do business with the for profit. We only support nonprofits. And I point out that, uh, as a B Corp, we often have higher standards than, uh.
• 10:47
  Gary Skulnik: Of the nonprofits.
• 10:53
  Tim Montague: Yeah, what I love, what I love about B Corp is it?
• 10:56
  Tim Montague: It allows owners to have a responsibility for the greater good, not just for the well being of the of the finances of the corporation, but there is an explicit responsibility to the community. Now, how you police that, and how you regulate that, you know, is a whole other matter, right? You You could form a B Corp that and ends up doing bad in the world. And I'm curious. I'm curious what your thoughts are about that. Not that there are a plethora B Corps, you know, they are certainly a minority. But how, how does that play out? Do you think in your mind? Well,
• 11:40
  Gary Skulnik: there's two answers to that. One, is there things that B Corp doesn't cover in its assessment of a company?
• 11:46
  Gary Skulnik: So deceptive marketing practices. For example, I have seen B Corps engage in deceptive marketing practices, and I have expressed my being upset about that, because that should be part of the B Corp program as well. The second piece is that you get certified every three years. So you could, like, get certified and then, like, slack off for a few years, and maybe you don't get recertified in three years. But, you know, I don't find a B Corps, not a perfect solution, because it's voluntary. I could say tomorrow, we're no longer a B Corp. You know, it's, it's not, there's no requirements on us. Ultimately, it's up to the consumer. You know, if the consumer looks at our B Corp assessment and sees what we're about and does business with us because of that, that's going to hold us accountable.
• 13:47
  Tim Montague: And the the other question I have about B Corp is, how hard is it, you know, versus forming just a regular C Corp, for example, what are the hoops that you have to jump through to establish a B Corp?
• 14:02
  Gary Skulnik: Well, you alluded to one. So when you, when you form your company, and we happen to be a double B, I don't want to get into the complexities.
• 14:12
  Gary Skulnik: We're also a benefit corporation. It's different than B Corp, but it's basically the same purpose, which is when you form your company with your legal documents, whether it's an operating agreement or bylaws or, you know, articles of incorporation, there's a couple paragraphs you put in there that says that the CEO has the right to take into account other factors besides share value in making decisions, and so that that gets that point where, as a CEO of a company, it gives me more latitude. This all started, actually, with Ben and Jerry's, when they they were selling the company, and they got two offers. One was from a mission aligned company, one was not.
• 15:01
  Gary Skulnik: And they wanted to take the one from a mission aligned company, but it didn't have it was a lower price that they were being offered, and so they couldn't do it. They had a fiduciary responsibility to take the higher offer as a B Corp, you can think about, you know, different factors. So that's baked into the legal DNA of of of A, B, Corp, and it's not very complicated. The the more difficult part is going through the assessment. It's it's a lot.
• 15:33
  Gary Skulnik: There's dozens and dozens of questions, all kinds of things that they want to know. And it's gotten harder and harder over the years. It used to be a little easier, I have to say.
• 15:46
  Gary Skulnik: But we just completed our most recent reassessment, and it was challenging. There's a lot, there's a lot of scrutiny there.
• 15:55
  Tim Montague: Cool. Well, let's talk about community solar.
• 15:58
  Tim Montague: What, what is, what is the history that you know and you know what? When did community solar start? And how has it changed over the years?
• 16:07
  Gary Skulnik: Well, I'm aware of the beginnings in Colorado with companies like the clean energy collective and their program that that was rolled out in Colorado came and, you know, it came to Maryland in 2015 I know New York, you know, I've seen other states build up and build up. The market has changed a lot since its start. I think, you know, the developers who built the projects or the asset owners didn't really appreciate or understand the retail side of the business. I. Acquiring customers and managing customers so well, from the beginning, maybe viewed it as more just a pure technology thing, but there's a lot of there's a lot to it. So I think that has evolved as these developers appreciate companies that can keep customers long term. Now we've got several years of experience, and they're seeing that some of their projects have high churn rates, and that means lower lower revenue for them. So that's been a big change in the industry. When it first started, also there was they viewed it as almost like a rooftop solar system, but just virtual. So I won't name names, but one of the companies we had to do our first contract with, even though we told them it wouldn't work, we said, alright, well, we have no choice, because we need a contract. They they gave a 4% no 5% discount, but with a 4% escalator each year and a $1,200 cancelation fee. Nobody's going to sign up for that. So they had to learn the hard way that you've got, it's, this is not rooftop solar. You've got to offer, make better offers. It's got to be easier to get in and out of the program.
• 17:59
  Tim Montague: Yeah. And, you know, things have kind of, I guess, solidified around a model where you collect fees from consumers in some manner. Here in Illinois, it's a fee on your power bill. I think it's capped at 4% of the bill now and, and what that does then is it creates pots of millions of dollars that can then be fed into various buckets, one of the buckets being community solar and, and what it does is it energizes the development of These community solar projects and then gives, ultimately, consumers access. And there's flavors. We have a low and moderate income program called solar for all, and then we have the main program called Illinois shines, and it works. Now, the interesting thing Gary that I've noticed here in Illinois, and I don't know how many states this is true in, what's happening in Illinois now is that the developers are going beyond the traditional programs, Illinois shines and solar for all, and just driving projects forward.
• 19:15
  Tim Montague: And that is largely, I think, because of the IRA, the inflation Reduction Act, where, if you have energy communities, for example, which we have a lot of in Illinois, those those ITC benefits that you get, those additional ITC benefits that you get, you know, you can get up to 60% now on the ITC. So if you can get 60% on the ITC, then you don't need the renewable energy credits, which is the main cash subsidy for solar projects in Illinois, which is very substantive, right? It's 30 plus percent of a project value coming back to the asset owner in the first seven years. It's, it's a very, it's a very good incentive. You need that, yeah, to to jump start the market. And now the engines running, and these developers are going well, here we are. We've got all these parcels that we're getting site control on. How can we leverage this investment? So to speak, right? The market is very competitive. There's more projects in that pipeline that are going to win Rex. That's the nature of the beast. And so now companies are hedging their bets, trying to get some of these slightly less economical, I would argue, projects, but still viable off the ground. Do you have anything to say about that phenomenon? Yeah,
• 20:36
  Gary Skulnik: this is, this has been the history of solar all the time. You know, when there's some incentives happening every it's like the Gold Rush mentality, oh, we got some incentives. We got to rush in and get to it. Then you have kind of a saturation, and you have a dip where then a bunch of projects become not viable. You know, I understand, look, I appreciate the IRA, and I think it's, it's going to be an incredible driver for projects, as well as the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund. But you know, I think the most important thing for solar is just long term stability. Knowing, you know, if you have a project site, you can get it in, you're not going to miss out on a subsidy. You're not going to miss out on a bonus incentive to me, that would be the ideal situation.
• 21:27
  Gary Skulnik: Unfortunately, we live in this kind of feast or famine world with solar where right now there's a feast, which is fantastic. I just don't want there to be a famine coming down the road.
• 21:40
  Tim Montague: Yeah, the solar.
• 21:40
  Tim Montague: Coaster is is harsh. Sometimes solar is a very regional sport.
• 21:45
  Tim Montague: And you know, someday, all 50 states in the US and Puerto Rico will be great community solar states. Right now it's only a handful. Yeah, and the Clean Power Hour is brought to you by CPS America, the maker of North America's number one three phase string inverter with over six gigawatts shipped in the US. The CPS America product lineup includes three phase string inverters ranging from 25 to 275 kW. Their flagship inverter, the CPS 252 75 is designed to work with solar plants ranging from two megawatts to two gigawatts, the 252 75 pairs. Well, with CPS America's exceptional data communication controls and energy storage solutions. Go to chintpowersystems.com. To find out more. But let's get into some of the nuts and bolts of your business. You're in the subscription management side of this business. So you're, you're kind of a platform to connect consumers and business owners to asset owners who want to sell the power from those projects.
• 22:54
  Tim Montague: What is it tell us of just a little bit about that business model? How do you go about your business, and what, what do you like and what do you want to change?
• 23:06
  Gary Skulnik: Well, so yeah, we, we are what's sometimes called an aggregator. We've built a very powerful software platform called Sun engine that connects the consumers with the projects to enroll and then also for us to do the ongoing management.
• 23:26
  Gary Skulnik: It's also a platform that could be white labeled and licensed to any solar developer out there, which is unusual. I don't think some of our competitors do that.
• 23:34
  Gary Skulnik: So we've actually got our first licensing deal done, and we're looking forward to do more. So yeah, we have two revenue streams. We get a one time payment for each customer we acquire, and then we get the recurring revenue for managing the customers over the over the years. Our our model is, you know, having a strong brand, as we talked about, being a B core, being authentic. Because even though a lot of people said, Oh, this is could be like shooting fish in a barrel. You're selling you're selling people a discount on power and it's clean. Well, doesn't work out that way, because people have been burned so many times before that it sounds too good to be true. So authenticity and trust are huge.
• 24:20
  Gary Skulnik: We also are very community oriented, and this comes into our B Corp like we're not just trying to sell to consumers. We want people to feel like they're part of something greater than themselves. And we haven't had a lot of work on this yet. This is part of our step, phase two of the company, something we want to change, but we have done it in Maryland. We have a customer advisory board that we meet with every quarter who gives us just advice and feedback on how we're doing. We set up a neighbor benefit fund to help low income people who can't pay their electric bills on a given month.
• 24:59
  Gary Skulnik: We have community events, or we did have a lot before COVID, and now we're getting back into that where we just, you know, have beer or some snacks and reserves with customers and and we also have done a lot of crowdfunding through our customers, which is different than anybody else.
• 25:22
  Gary Skulnik: We've raised $2 million in crowdfunding through our customers and others. And so our customers are not just customers, they're also state shareholders in the company. And then they feel like, you know, we're part of something that they're that they want to be part of, which means we can't just talk about solar all the time. We have to talk to them about other issues that are related, you know, whether it's energy efficiency or electrification, things of that sort. That's kind of the bigger plan to get out there and just be the one place for people who are, you know, concerned about these issues and want to take action.
• 26:08
  Tim Montague: So I'm curious why you pursued the crowdfunding approach.
• 26:16
  Gary Skulnik: Well, there's two reasons. One is, it fits with our brand very well. We often say we are people powered business, so we put the test to the market, and the people said, yes, we want to help power your business. So it was just it's such a natural fit for us, because our customers love love us. They love what we're trying to do. They love our mission.
• 26:41
  Gary Skulnik: And. The kind of people I've hired at the company are all extremely dedicated to the mission. It's not just about dollars and cents with us. So they want to support us. And this is an investment, you know, it's not a donation to a charity. It's an investment that hopefully can give them a return. The second reason is because it gives us more freedom and flexibility if, if you go the institutional route, you know, you start getting a lot more restrictions on what you can do, what kind of brand you can be, etc. So we weren't quite ready for those restrictions at that time.
• 27:18
  Tim Montague: And so if, if I see, I'm, I'm at the funding page on wefunder.com so if you just go to we funder and look for neighborhood son, you'll find the fundraising page. But and so there's a minimum donation or minimum investment of $250 what is the what can an investor expect? What is it the obligation that you're obligated to, well,
• 27:46
  Gary Skulnik: it's, it's a the instrument is a safe, simple agreement for future equity. So it's based on a certain price cap and a discount. And basically what that means is that the next time we have a priced round the the safe holders will convert to that price at a discount. I'm not, I can't go to exact terms and everything that's not allowed by the by the federal government, but you know, it's, it's basically just a way you can invest 250, $10,000 25,000, whatever you feel is best. It's, and you can read all the terms and conditions on the we funder website. Yeah, it's something really exciting for us. We were at close to 200,000 and we're hoping to get to about four or 500
• 28:45
  Tim Montague: nice, and I see you raised 200,000 from 175 investors. So about $2,000 per investor.
• 28:57
  Gary Skulnik: Yeah, we get all kinds. I mean, it's, it's really, that's one of the best things about this is just hearing the stories of people who invest, who have invested, because they reach out to me and they want to tell me. And you know, some of these people are not sitting on large bank accounts, but they really want to help out, and they've got a little bit of extra cash. I mean, the thing you've got to say is that, you know, you never want to invest money that would that you can't afford to lose.
• 29:22
  Gary Skulnik: So that's really important to know Sure. $250 is a fairly low minimum.
• 29:30
  Tim Montague: And one more question about this, I'm a huge fan of crowdfunding. I think, I think it's a wonderful phenomenon, and it's not new.
• 29:37
  Tim Montague: You know, crowdfunding goes way back, I think, to the Statue of Liberty, but, but it's, it's recently become illegal to do it on mass now in the United States, in many markets anyway, yeah, for for companies and but What is the if a consumer puts their resources into this crowdfunding effort, how long is the is there are their dollars tied up? Is there any known time period?
• 30:15
  Gary Skulnik: No, it's like any investment in a private company, so we're not publicly traded, right? It's, it's like if you are an accredited investor, an angel investor, and you put$100,000 into a private company, you don't have any guarantees on what's going to happen. All we guarantee is we're going to work extremely hard to make the company grow. And then the hope is that we have an exit event, whether we sell to a large strategic or we get bought out by a private equity fund, or we do an IPO, and at that point, everybody gets their gets their payback,
• 30:54
  Tim Montague: and I see that your main markets right now are Maryland and Colorado. Why? Why those two markets and what other markets are you looking at?
• 31:05
  Gary Skulnik: Yeah, those are two biggest markets. So Maryland is because I've been here for 25 years, so I know the state pretty well. I know a lot of players. I know how Maryland goes. So you know, it's a natural. A lot of developers come to us whenever they have projects in Maryland. Colorado is because we were able to win a large portfolio out there, and we actually have two different portfolios. And it's been amazing. The people in Colorado are very receptive to this. It's incredible to see how much production these bar these farms have because of the sunshine all the. Time. So that's been a good market. We also are very active in New York, Massachusetts, Maine, and we have a lot of projects we're working on in New Jersey right now. And then we have some in Minnesota and a few in DC, and we'd love to get to Illinois. So anybody listening here? Well,
• 32:07
  Tim Montague: what does that take? What does it take? Gary, I mean, we're one of the top community solar markets in the country. Are we not I know.
• 32:15
  Gary Skulnik: I know. Well, we do have a couple irons in the fire. So it could happen any any day now,
• 32:21
  Tim Montague: you have to get brought there by an asset owner.
• 32:23
  Tim Montague: Is that the story? Or, yeah,
• 32:25
  Gary Skulnik: well, I mean, that's also but here's why we're raising money, is because we want to have the resources to establish ourselves in a market like Illinois, even before we have projects, you know. So that would be great to do. We just don't have the resources to do that yet.
• 32:41
  Tim Montague: In our last few minutes together, I want to talk about some of the nuts and bolts of this phenomenon. You know, a consumer when they become a subscriber to community solar project in most markets, this varies Market to Market, they're taking on an additional power bill that offers them a discount on what they're paying for consumer power, right? So there is a financial incentive, but it is paperwork, and there is a logistical aspect to this. And there can be headaches. I've heard about some of those headaches. What has to happen to kind of grease the skids to make this easier to swallow and easier for consumers to adopt and sign up for these programs.
• 33:29
  Gary Skulnik: Well, there's two things. I mean, I think consolidated billing obviously helps, because then you have just one you have your same utility bill, nothing changes.
• 33:41
  Gary Skulnik: And for consumer that's a lot easier. You don't have to give us your credit card or bank Ach, none of that. But I also think the dual billing model has a lot of benefits, and I think there are ways to make it better. What we found is that people generally get very confused when they get their first bill, because, as you know, you often sign up for community solar and a project doesn't start immediately. You could be waiting a few months, even up to a year. So when people get that first bill, they're confused, not understanding and that's when you have the highest amount of people canceling. To us, that's a exciting challenge we'd love to take on is, how do you communicate to the consumer from the moment they sign on until they get their first bill?
• 34:29
  Gary Skulnik: Because once they get their first bill and they understand there's no paperwork, it's all we set up automatic payment so you don't have to even do anything, but it's a matter of trust. Is this real? Now I'm getting two bills, so that's a communications challenge. And in this age, we're finding email doesn't work quite as well anymore, so we're looking into other ways to communicate with people to make sure that they get the message and understand exactly what's going to happen so they are happy when they get their first bill.
• 34:59
  Tim Montague: Yeah, the question in my mind is, is the is the utility going to credit me truly for what I'm paying into the community solar program and and is it easy for me to tell if I'm getting full credit for that?
• 35:14
  Tim Montague: Yeah, exactly. So I guess you know I would have to say I would lean towards consolidated billing, where the where the community solar subscription is on your main utility bill, whoever you're paying, whether that's an investor owned utility or some other third party supplier. Here in Illinois, many of the alternative energy suppliers they their bill shows up integrated into the Ameren or comed bill, and so there's no reason why you couldn't, as a community solar platform be treated that same way, right?
• 35:51
  Tim Montague: You are effectively an AES, yeah.
• 35:54
  Gary Skulnik: I mean, exactly, except, you know, the utility takes a little fee for doing that, so there's some lost revenue. And then, you know, if you want to get a little more innovative, you can't get innovative on the utility bill.
• 36:08
  Gary Skulnik: So if we wanted to down the road, let's say, sell people batteries for their home through neighborhood sun and their community solar program, we could do that if we control the bill and are able to offer some kind of financing options where they're paying over time. You can't do that through the utility bill. Yeah, I
• 36:26
  Tim Montague: understood well.
• 36:26
  Tim Montague: What big picture? What would you like to see change? You know, I I've heard some comments from energy executives lately, you know, about how the grid is. Is ripe for disruption. We too. We truly have the technology to completely disrupt the grid today. It's a question of, will the government allow us to do that? And the regulated monopoly model has vast limitations. It worked well 100 years ago for electrifying things right, in a consistent manner and an equity, relatively equitable manner, but things are different now, and that model doesn't work when it comes to innovation, right?
• 37:14
  Tim Montague: They're not there aren't strong enough incentives for those companies to innovate as technology changes, and so they tend to hold back the energy transition as a group or a force. What would you like to see change, to make things change faster? I
• 37:33
  Gary Skulnik: mean, I absolutely think the utilities need to be taken out of the picture. I mean, I suppose they can. You know, in states where they are allowed to just maintain the wires and that's it. I would be very happy, because they they slow everything down, they impede progress. As you mentioned, they're a business model from 100 years ago. It's almost like a quasi government agency with guaranteed profits.
• 38:01
  Gary Skulnik: I mean, that's not a way to innovate, so I'd like to keep them on the sideline, not even doing billing, you know, get them out of billing. Get them out of everything, and have more of what we call the distributed clean energy utility of the future, where everyone has more control over their own power, what kind of power they want, how they want to maximize their savings or their clean energy.
• 38:22
  Gary Skulnik: You know, I think a real human approach would be much better than these mammoth utilities which don't work. And in places like California, we're seeing there, they are trying to kill solar, and so it's even double of a problem. Not only are they not helping much. They're actually actively opposing.
• 38:46
  Tim Montague: It is quite ironic, you know that the largest, historically, the largest solar market, doesn't have a true community solar program of any depth or breadth, right?
• 38:58
  Gary Skulnik: Yeah, the governor says he's, you know, a big climate guy, and he's doing it.
• 39:00
  Gary Skulnik: It's like yet in his own state, he's shooting community solar in the foot. All right.
• 39:07
  Tim Montague: Well, I want to thank Gary Skulnik for coming on the show. Please check out all of our content at Cleanpowerhour.com Please give us a rating and a review on Apple or Spotify. Reach out to me on LinkedIn. I love hearing from my listeners. You can also contact me through the website, Cleanpowerhour.com and with that, Gary, how can our listeners find you and neighborhood sun?
• 39:25
  Gary Skulnik: Well, we are at neighborhood Sun dot solar. We have a dot solar domain. So neighborhood Sun dot solar, if you want to check out the we funder campaign, it's wefunder.com/neighborhoodsun.
• 39:34
  Gary Skulnik: And I'm always happy to chat with people, and I love talking clean energy. So thank you, Tim, for this chance.
• 39:44
  Tim Montague: Awesome. Well, I'm Tim Montague, let's grow solar and storage. Take care. Gary,
• 39:48
  Gary Skulnik: all right. You too, Tim. You.