Latest / Conversations With the Hoff / Kathleen Marden of MUFON talks of the Betty & Barney Hill Abduction

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Kathleen Marden of MUFON talks of the Betty & Barney Hill Abduction · Conversations With the Hoff

• 1:04
  unknown: Uh that we're going to have to go to the house.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, hello.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_05: It's a good work on the South Trans.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome to Conversations with the Hoff.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_05: I'm Steve Hoffman, your host, and with me in the studio today is my glorious leader and executive producer of Liberty Crack Media.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_05: Hello, everyone, Trip Depp Moran.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_05: Today's episode, we're going to deviate from the usual political banter though that you're used to on Conversations with the Hoff.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yay! You can't listen to TV or radio these days without hearing some new revelation about extraterrestrials or UFOs.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_05: For example, White House app developer linked to UFO conspiracy content.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_05: Disappearance of Air Force Generals sparked UFO speculation.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_05: Trump orders release of UFO files.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_05: Congressman warns of a dark trend of missing UFO sciences.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_05: And Bill Moore, of all people, becomes a UFO believer.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_05: So I researched the Mutual UFO Network MUFON to find an expert on this subject matter for today's show.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_05: One name continuously popped up, and that was Kathleen Martin.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_05: She's a UFO researcher, author, scholar, and lecturer who earned her BA degree from the University of New Hampshire and participated in graduate studies and education at the University of Cincinnati and UNHC.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_05: As MUFON's director of field investigative training, and another 10 years as director of MOFON's experienced research analysts, ERT.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_05: She is also the recipient of the International UFO Congress Lifetime Achievement Award.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_05: Presently, she is a MUFON Lifetime Member, benefactor, and research consultant for the ERT.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_05: She also sat on the advisory board of the Edgar Mitchell Foundation for Research into Extraterrestrial and Extraordinary Encounters.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_05: She has worked on four research studies on UFO abductees experiences with nearly 5,000 participants.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_05: She's the primary author or co-author of several books.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_05: Her bestseller with ufologist and lecturer Stanton Friedman is captured the Betty and Barney Hill UFO experience.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_05: They co-authored two other books, Science is Wrong and Fact Fiction and Flying Saucers.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_05: Her book with Dennis Stoner.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_05: Her fifth book, Extratrial Contact, What to Do When You're You've Been Abducted, is a comprehensive guide on UFO abduction phenomena and a self-help book for UFO abductees.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_05: Her latest book is Forbidden Knowledge, A Personal Journey from Alien Abduction to Spiritual Transformation.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_05: She has appeared as an on-camera expert on 65 television and video productions and innumerable radio shows and podcasts.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_05: Additionally, she has lectured at conferences across the United States and in several foreign countries.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_05: Welcome to the show, Kathleen.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's great to be with you this morning.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I have uh many topics that I'd like to talk about, but I understand that you want to talk about your latest book, Captured the Betty Hill Betty and Barney Hill UFO experience.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that's not my latest book, but it is uh one of my most important books because it reflects many, many years of investigation.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_05: How many years did you research that book?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, first of all, I was 16, I was 13 when it happened, and I was an eyewitness to the impact that it had on my aunt and uncle Betty and Barney Hill.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: But uh later in life, uh in the mid-1980s, I uh moved from Colorado to New Hampshire, where I was brought up and where Betty Hill lived.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so I began an uh really in-depth investigation of the case at that time.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: I knew that there were very dismissive statements that had been issued over the years about it, but I wanted to know for myself if this really did happen.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I spent uh the next many, many years investigating this case, doing research, going to archival collections, uh driving along the entire route in the time frame that Betty and Barney drove, looking for uh any uh possible uh problems regarding the case, anything that might lead to a prosaic explanation.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: So it's all in my book.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that was long, long time ago.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_05: Um we actually have a contact, uh there's a thing called what six degrees of uh separation about where everybody on the planet uh is really uh connected to other people through three or four different contacts.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_05: And uh when I was stationed in Teeser Air Force Base, New Hampshire, I had a girlfriend who was a was a friend of Betty Hill.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_05: And uh we later got married in Betty Hill's backyard.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_05: Uh and then now when I did this research, your name pops up, and you turn out to be the niece of Betty Hill, who even wrote a book about her.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_05: And then later on, when Betty Hill was uh dying of cancer, uh my ex-wife went to go visit her, and you actually met her.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I did meet her.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: And Betty, over the years, Betty uh spoke of her uh many times.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_05: So that's definitely uh one of those uh strange um coincidences and a couple of great degrees of separation there.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_05: So tell us more about the the abduction.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_05: What what actually happened during this this abduction?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_05: You know, where when did it happen?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_05: Where did it happen?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, if you can kind of um some of our listeners might not even be familiar with the story of Betty and Barney Hill.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_04: If you can kind of go through uh the story and and what happened um and and get people kind of caught up, our listeners caught up on on what was going on.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I'd I'd love to.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let me begin with who Betty and Barney Hill were.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um Betty was my aunt, my mother's sister.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: She grew up in Kingston, New Hampshire, and um she was a very bright girl.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: She went to the University of New Hampshire and earned her bachelor degree and became a social worker for the state of New Hampshire.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: She uh was very politically actively involved.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: Even when she was a student, she was the head of the student group for interracial relations.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: So uh it shows how far back she was an advocate for civil rights and equal rights and human rights.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: Now uh so she lived in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: She'd been married once, she was divorced, and then she met Barney Hill, who came to New Hampshire on vacation.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh he was worked for the post office, he had served honorably in the army during World War II, and uh they had never intended to marry just to be friends because he was black and she was white, and they were well aware of the impact that that had back in the 1960s.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: So uh they ended up falling in love, they were married in 1960.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: Barney moved to New Hampshire.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: He was very actively involved in the NAACP locally and regionally.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he, in fact, in 1965, was appointed to the U.S.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: Civil Rights Commission as a representative for the state of New Hampshire.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, they were very active in setting up programs for the people of the state of New Hampshire.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Barney set up a literacy program so that back in those days you had to pass literacy tests to vote.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: So uh he received an award for the work he did on that.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: Also from Sergeant Shriver for the poverty program for the federal government to using funding to set up the Rockingham County Community Action Program.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: So you can see they were uh well known in the community, they were respected people, and they decided to take a vacation.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, they were very upscale, respected citizens of their community.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_05: That that that's good.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_05: They weren't crackputs.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: They were not, they were stable people, they had no previous interest in UFOs, they never read a book on it or anything like that.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: So um they went on a vacation trip.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: It was a surprise for Betty during her vacation in September 1961.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: They went to Niagara Falls and they spent the night there.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: They spent the second night uh Taurus in the uh Thousand Lakes area, and then uh the third day they went to Montreal and decided not to spend the night there, but to travel on home.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: They were well rested from the night before.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: They thought if they grew tired, they would just stop.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: So uh they're driving home, they stopped in upstate New Hampshire for uh a little snack and some coffee, uh, because in those days we uh things were not open like they are today, um 24 hours or whatever.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: So they're heading south through New Hampshire toward their home in Portsmouth when they're in a mountainous area, the White Mountain, and this unusual object swoops down, and uh Betty watches it uh for a period of time, and finally they end up stopping to look at this.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: One's north of what is called Franconian Notch, which is a beautiful tourist area.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: There are mountains on each side.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there the U.S.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: highway went through the center in that timeframe.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's an inter uh interstate highway now.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: Streams, a nice tourist area.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: So they enter Franconian Knot, and uh the craft is still following them, it's coming in closer and closer.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: They finally stop at the old man of the mountain, which is 48 feet from forehead to chin.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: The old man is just a stone, uh natural stone formation that shows the profile of an old man.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, it fell off the mountain in 2003.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, they said that the craft was at least one and a half times the length of the old man's profile and appeared to be lighted on only one side and rotated silently in the air.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: So this really sort of spurred their interest.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Barney was a confirmed skeptic.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: He was going to identify it as being something conventional.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Betty was trying to identify what it was, but she had more of an open mind than Barney.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: They got back into the car.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: This craft is bouncing back and forth in the sky.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: Barney compares it to a yo-yo, uh bouncing out and coming back, bouncing out and coming back.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: They uh exit Franconia Notch, and now they're in the tourist area.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: They pass by an area called Indian Head.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: There uh is the motel and the cabin.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: And uh Betty thinks about stopping, but she's really interested in what she's seeing.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: So she they continue to drive on, and then this craft comes very rapidly and swoops down over the highway, and they have to stop the car in the middle of the highway so they won't be directly under the craft, it's now hovering about 200 feet above them.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they look up and they see uh a row of windows.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: The craft is no longer rotating.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um Barney compared the light behind the windows to the intensity of mercury vapor lamp, very, very blue light.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: He steps out of the car, they had the binoculars, they had been to Niagara Falls, so they took them to look at the scenery, and uh he looks up at the craft.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he wants a better view, so he steps back from his vehicle, and when he does, the craft crosses the highway in front of the vehicle, and now descends to within a hundred feet of the ground.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Bonnie is standing there looking up at the shaking his head, attempting to identify it.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: He can't, it's silent, it's a hovering disc that he compared to a giant pancake, and behind these windows he sees figures looking down at him.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_03: He can see that they're dressed in black, shiny uniform of some kind.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, there's one of them that appears to be wearing some kind of cap on its head, but uh he's uh I wonder if it really was a cap and not uh some kind of head gear.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, from my knowledge in all of my years of investigation of thousands of cases.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: So now uh little red lights start to slide out from the craft on pin-like structures, um, and uh something starts to drop down from the bottom of the craft.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: He's staring up at one in the window that he called the leader.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: The others had gone to what appeared to be a panel on the opposite wall of this kind of corridor that encircled the outside of this craft, and uh Barney becomes so terrified that he tears the binoculars from his eyes, breaking the leather strap in the process, and runs screaming back to the car, telling Betty that they have to get out of there or they're going to be captured.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: So uh as he's entering the car, he looks up and the craft is moving in his direction.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: They're speeding down the highway.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: He tells Betty to roll down the window and look up to see if the craft is above the vehicle.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: She does.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: All she can see is blackness, even though it's a bright light night.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: She was looking for the lights on the craft, but she didn't see any light.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: Later, they uh determined that the craft was over their vehicle and must have been fairly low.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, seconds later, uh, they heard a series of code-like buzzing sounds striking the trunk of their car.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: Barney compared those sounds to the sound of a tuning fork having been dropped.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: There were about uh six to eight of those rhythmic.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: And uh when that happened, uh the car vibrated.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: And Betty and Barney felt a tingling sensation.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, uh he felt of the metal on the car, wondering if she'd receive an electric shock, but she did not.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um very rapidly they began to lose track of what they were doing, um, of their memories, and the next thing they knew, they were 35 miles down the highway with very little recollection of what occurred in this room.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_05: They had they had forgotten everything that had happened uh uh until something happened in the future, right?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, no, they hadn't forgotten everything.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: Everything I told you is documented in the reports that they made to uh Pease Air Force Base the day after they arrived home and to the National Investigations Committee uh for aerial phenomena based in Washington, D.C., in uh earliest uh late September, and then an interview in October of 1961.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: So we have the documented evidence.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: What they did not remember was what happened in uh that period where the memories were very uh very reduced.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: They did remember finding themselves on a dirt road with ta lined with tall trees.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: They did remember a roadblock, they didn't know where or when that occurred.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_03: They remembered a fiery orb.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: And they went beginning in the late fall of 1961 to New Hampshire and then again in the spring and for a few years looking for that spot, and they they couldn't find it.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: So um I'm going to take a breath now and see if you have questions for me.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I read the book uh interrupted Journey when I was stationed there, and I listened to uh a lecture uh by by Betty at the base library, and uh and I I came away with a a little different um impression of their experience.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_05: You described everything that they experienced, but I thought according to that book, it all didn't come out in a until after.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_05: He uh uh Barney underwent um psychiatric evaluation in Boston.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_05: But you're telling me that they actually did file a complete report on a lot of what they saw before when they got home.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: You can uh go to my website at Kathleen-Marden and read those original reports.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I am the trustee of the estate, and all of the resort uh reports are also in an archival collection at the University of New Hampshire.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, so all of this information is well documented.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_04: Now that's Kathleen Dash Mardin.com?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, K-A-T-L-L-E-E-N-or-M-A-R-D-E-N.com.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, we'll have that down in our show notes.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_05: In those reports, did they describe the appearance of the aliens?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they did not mention the aliens to the or whatever figures they were to the to P's Air Force base because they feared they would be ridiculed, but they did mention it to uh uh NICAP.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: So in that September uh 26th letter that Betty wrote to NICAP, uh she described the figures dressed in shiny black uniforms and uh how Barney had become so frightened that he had uh developed a mental block for the their faces for the rest of their appearance, um, that it was terribly frightening.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: She uh requested information regarding uh possible hip uh psychiatrist who used hypnosis because uh she they felt that Bonnie would benefit from that.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: I know you're not reading, it's inconsistent with the information in the it's interrupted journey, but the interrupted journey is not accurate.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, it was uh written to entertain the public.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_05: It was yeah, definitely an entertaining book.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_05: Uh also uh when I used to go to the library and listen to Betty, it wasn't just myself at the library, that library was packed.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_05: And of people in there were also office.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_05: And those officers were very, very afraid of saying anything to their bosses, to the other Air Force generals and stuff.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_05: Because they would be, I don't know, ridiculed or their crews could be in jeopardy.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that that remained in place for many, many years.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: It was true of airline pilots as well.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: And this taboo extended to academia.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: There was, you know, you do not broach that subject.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: If you do, you'll be in big trouble.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: You could lose your career.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: If you were a pilot, you could be uh taken, you could be grounded for a year, you could have to undergo uh psychiatric evaluations.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: There was really a huge taboo against it.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: And it's beginning to lift.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_04: Kathleen, I want to also ask you if you've been involved with this for so long.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_04: You've been involved with MUFON for so long.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_04: Not only the culture of uh with MUFON and yourself doing the left now we don't really have more and um they have uh uh other reports that that have been uh coming out of uh data uh having files that are being released by the government and uh people that have been involved in that uh as far as you know or or having uh issues.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_04: Uh have you seen a cultural change in in the country, in the perceptions of the studies and the acceptance of um extraterrestrials?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, there has been, and this began on December 16, 2017, when the New York Times published uh an article on the front page and on another full page regarding uh black budgets and uh UAPs and uh you know flying discs, whatever.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And uh an intelligence officer, military officer, uh Lou Elizond, Luis Elizondo, had worked at the Pentagon on uh a secret UFO program, uh research program, and he grew frustrated with the secrecy around it, and he ended up uh quitting his job in protest, and he spoke uh could only reveal information that was not classified.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: But he spoke to journalists, uh Ralph Blumenthal, Leslie Kane, um, Helene Cooper, who uh and they wrote this very interesting article, and it spread like wildfire.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: They talked about military radar reports and visual sightings of the same craft and um how they uh could outfly and outmaneuver anything that we had, how they could uh hover at 40,000 feet and in uh just uh a second or so drop to uh feet above the ocean and bounce back and forth over the ocean, they said like a ping pong ball, and how they seemed this crap seemed to know what the military was doing before the military did.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so there was some level they they couldn't figure this out, but there's been a tremendous amount of investigation since then, and then uh Marco Rubio uh introduced a bill to Congress uh to have a committee, uh congressional committee, uh uh study this and and request documents from the Pentagon.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: So those hearings went on uh for uh uh at least two years, uh probably more than that.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it was the Congressional Oversight Committee on UAPs.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: And you can go to YouTube and and uh look for that.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: If you haven't looked into this, you can also uh Google the Tic-Tac UFO.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: And there were you know many UFO sightings that have gone public.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: The the Department of Navy has uh even uh stated that the some of these craft did not belong to them.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: So there's been a lot of speculation about you know, are they our uh advanced craft?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: Do they belong to one of our enemies?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: And the conclusion by those uh experts who have looked into this, the military officers and the scientists, uh, say that no, they don't belong to us or to anyone on this planet.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: They came to the same conclusion in 1947 when they began their investigation uh called Project Sign, and uh they investigated uh quite a number of very good cases uh by uh Air Force uh endless people.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_05: That's all interesting, and I'm gonna get into more of that in future episodes of Conversations with the Hoff.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_05: But I'd like to learn a little bit more about what happened when Betty and Barney Hill were actually actually captured and are now inside the UFO.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_05: What happened to them during that period of time?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, well, this is uh very interesting and and uh is very controversial uh because we know that something happened.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: There was at least two hours missing time, uh time that could not be accounted for.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: They arrived home two to three hours later than they had anticipated.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so Barney was so distressed over what occurred, the sighting that he had of these non-human.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so Walter Webb, he even said they were somehow not human.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: That was he was Walter Webb was an astronomer and NICAP investigator.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so uh all of this played so heavily on him that he ended up with bleeding ulcers.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: He started drinking, he couldn't sleep, he he couldn't cope with what was going on.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: And he was finally referred to Dr.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: Benjamin Simon, who had very successfully during World War II uh treated soldiers returning from the war who were terribly psychologically damaged.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: They had uh what was called conversion hysteria, shell shock.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: They had physiological symptoms such as uh being unable to walk, unable to see, but there was a psychological um uh agent that that was uh to play here.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: And he used deep trans hypnosis to heal these soldiers and send them home to their families.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: There was a movie, Let There Be Light, made about his work.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: He uh was one of the leading psychiatrists in the United States.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh he had set up the psychiatric unit at the Mason General Hospital in Long Island.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: He taught at Harvard and Yale, owned his own hospital at one time.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: When Betty and Varney saw him, he um had retired but was working just part-time.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: And they saw him every Saturday for a period of six months, and he hypnotized them separately.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: They went because of Varney's problem, physiological problem that would not recede with traditional medical treatment.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, he hypnotized them separately.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um he reinstated amnesia, so they couldn't remember what they experienced after the at the end of the hypnosis session.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: They couldn't share information.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: Each said that uh they found themselves on this dirt road with tall lined with tall trees.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: There was uh this roadblock.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: They had conscious body recall for that, but now it became very clear.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: The the men standing in the road were the same non-humans that Barney had observed in that hovering craft.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and uh they divided into groups.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: They went up to Betty's door, Barney's door, they took them from the vehicle down a path in the woods onto this craft.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: They took them into separate rooms, and uh they underwent uh physical examinations of uh a type that you would think would be conducted by someone who didn't know a great deal about the human body, yet all the equipment was there to examine the human body.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um so they took uh they're very interested in their skeletal system, uh, in their muscles, uh, in their uh nervous system, they took skin scrapings, they looked into their eyes, their nose, their mouth, their ears, they took samples from all of the openings in their bodies and uh that sort of thing.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: Now uh the thing that complicated this is that Betty had five dreams.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: They began ten days after the experience, and in these five dreams, she recalled uh part of uh what she stated under hypnosis.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: So the question is, was she only repeating her dreams under hypnosis?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: If is this not what really happened, but only what she dreamed had happened, and had this information been passed to Barney?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, um I did a comparative analysis of their statements, and you'll read it in my book Captured the Betty and Barney Hill UFO uh experience with uh my colleague, uh nuclear physicist and UFO investigator Stanton T.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: Friedman.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: And uh I found significant discrepancies between Betty's dreams and uh what Betty and Barney stated under hypnosis.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: They agreed, but in some cases there was significant discrepancies.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: So Betty's dreams were different than the hypnosis.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: For example, in Betty's dreams, she observed uh five and a half foot-tall men in the road at that roadblock.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: They would dress in military cadet uniforms, blue, with caps on their head.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: They had black hair, human features, large noses, ears, all of that.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: Under hypnosis, they remembered uh very different entities.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: Entities with uh large chests, large heads, slanted eyes.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: Barney remembered those slanted eyes before hypnosis as well.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um the memories finally came to him.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh very spindly arms and legs, walking different humans.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so there was a major difference there.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_05: So it's which is kind of the usual picture you get of a space alien these days with the big head and the spinely body.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah, you too.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: There are several different species of space aliens that you hear about today that people claim that they have observed.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: But yes, that's um what Betty and Barney saw is roughly similar to kind of what uh Bud Hopkins and all of his experiences kind of later promoted as the Grays.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_05: Uh because of the time limitation, can you tell us a little bit about the medical experiments that they actually performed on Betty and Barney?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_05: Some of those experiments were uh types of things that they they weren't practicing normally back in those days.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_05: I believe Yes.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well, particularly on Betty, they uh removed her dress, breaking the zipper in the process and tearing the stitching.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: Uh they'd all as she as she tried to escape, they uh she'd also torn down the hem and torn the lining, stitching and the lining on her dress.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: But um, so they removed that dress, it dropped to the floor.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: By the way, it has been examined in scientific laboratories several times.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: Very interesting anomalous findings.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway, they placed her on this table, and the one that she called the examiner had uh a long needle uh connected to with it to a tube.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, What are you going to do with that?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, I only need to place it uh in your navel.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: This was telepathic conversation, apparently, but she understood him.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: And um she said, Don't do it, it will hurt.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: And uh he said, It won't hurt, and he inserted it into her navel, and uh it hurt terribly.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: She went into hysterics.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: The in fact, Dr.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: Simon had to end the session early uh because of the level of pain she experienced.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_03: Now that reminds us of amniocentesin, which was not being used in any medical facility, not in any hospital at the time that Betty had this experience.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_05: So back in 1961, that wasn't a usual procedure.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: It was not.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you have to question where this memory came from.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: There was also um after her exam, when they went in to examine Barney, uh the she was left alone with the the reader, and she saw um uh what she called a book.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: It had uh a large, uh very thin, hard cover, and um uh she opened it and they're uh embedded in uh what was sort of a page underneath, she saw vertical rows of symbols.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um I asked her during my investigation of her case to sketch those symbols for me, and she sketched the ones that she could recall.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: Now, Dr.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: Don C.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: Donderi, who was uh he's now a retired professor um at McGill University in the Department of Psychic Psychology, and Dr.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: Stuart Appell from the State University of New York at Brockport did uh two uh experimental studies on people who uh believed that they had been abducted by uh and taken aboard craft and had observed these symbols, they sketched them under hypnosis.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then uh there were students that were hypnotized and told to imagine alien symbols and sketch them, and then just become members of the of uh of the college students, and uh they did a comparative analysis using statistical statistical data in uh instruments, and they discovered that those symbols sketched by uh the abductees were very much alike, but very different than the uh other two groups.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: Now, Dr.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: Don Darry saw Betty symbols that I published in Captured for the first time in 2007.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well um the doctors had completed their studies prior to that.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: And Dr.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: Don Gary compared Betty's symbols to the other symbols, and he said many of them were nearly identical to the other experiencers.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_03: So the scientists determined that uh UFO abduction could possibly be real.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_03: Also, Betty uh asked the leader, the one she called the leader, where he was from.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: And out of the wall, he uh pulled what uh was sort of like a three-dimensional star map that just sort of hung in the air.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's very different from her dreams, where in the dreams he pulled down uh like a classroom plastic or paper map um on a roller.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: This was high-tech.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it was like looking out a window at uh 16 stars, 12 connected by lines and uh some solid lines, some dotted lines.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_03: The stars were different colors and uh different sizes, some as large as a nickel, others just pinpoints.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: And he uh said to her, Do you know where you are on this map?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_03: And said, No, she didn't.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um and he said, Well, if you don't know where you are, there wouldn't be any point in showing you where I'm from.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: Now, in in the interim, he had stated to uh her that uh uh that they had uh they had come from one of those uh systems and that the solid lines were uh uh trade routes and that the dotted lines were expeditions.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_05: Were they ever able to pinpoint exactly what galaxy or star system they were from?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, uh this has been verified by uh several scientists who uh were astrophysicists.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh a brilliant woman from Ohio uh ended up doing the original research back in the late 1960s, early 1970s.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: She couldn't find a match, although she had constructed 14 models of our local galactic neighborhood out uh uh 54 light years.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and finally, we made technological progress.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: We had better distance data.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: She rearranged um the stars to reflect the better uh distance data, the distances.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: And keep in mind that this was not just a guess, this was doing all of the mathematical formulations to place those stars in their proper proper 3D location and that segment of our galaxy.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so you've built our uh enthusiasm up or suspense up here.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_05: And what was the outcome?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_05: What do what do they think that uh this these aliens were actually from?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what she identified were uh binary stars uh from zeta reticuli.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: Zeta reticuli.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's visible only from the southern hemisphere.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: Okay now, scientists in that time frame said that's impossible because binary stars cannot have planets uh uh rot uh orbiting around uh these uh stars uh in a stable orbit.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: They're too close together.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: Now, later they discovered that they were wrong.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: It is possible that stars could be uh orbiting in in a uh stable orbit.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_03: So uh that that leaves a question.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the question is.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_05: That leaves many questions.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_05: Matter of fact, we're running out of time.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_05: And because it's so many questions, you better know that uh there's definitely going to be more conversations with the Hawk that's gonna deal with this topic matter.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Kathleen.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_04: I hope we get the a chance to chat with you some more because it's extremely interesting.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_04: I am filled with a thousand questions uh uh I want to um ask you.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_04: So I I hope you can come back sometime.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_05: Uh this topic is definitely begging for more conversations with the hot and we'll we'll uh we're gonna have more experts on the on the show in the future.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_05: And uh please uh keep your uh phone open because you'll probably be getting the call from so this episode thank you very much for being on the show.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_05: This episode has been brought to you by Liberty Crack.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_05: Media.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_05: To learn more about the many podcasts brought to you by this network, please go to libertycrackmedia.com and while you're there, click on the donate button so we can help to deliver our message to an even broader audience.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_05: And now a word from our glorious leader, the executive producer of Liberty Crack Media, Trip Detmering.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you, uh Hoff.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_04: I just want to let uh and thank you, Kathleen.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_04: If people want to see more about uh Kathleen Martin and her information, go to Kathleen.mardin.com.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: You'll see that in our show notes.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_04: You'll also see links to her books like uh captured and um uh and alien abduction uh files, etc.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_04: We'll have all the books in there too.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_04: And we hope that you tune in for even more exciting and inf and really interesting information that we have for you on conversations with the Hof.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, everyone.
• 46:29
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