Latest / Success Matters / Social Justice with Brett Anderson

Transcript

Social Justice with Brett Anderson · Success Matters

0:00
Living as a white person in South Africa, we've got this
0:02
heavy past of colonialism and apartheid.
0:05
You either dig your head in the sand and pretend that belongs to
0:08
you, or you've come face to face with it one day and realized
0:11
that actually people that looked like you were not all that great
0:15
to people that didn't look like you.
0:16
Engaging with white people around race, around, privilege
0:19
around. Why we do need to be
0:21
responsible, why we don't need to sit with white guilt, why
0:24
there's no white genocide happening in South Africa, All
0:26
of those kind of things. People can, can have billions
0:29
and, and other people can't get a piece of bread.
0:31
Like that doesn't sit well for me.
0:33
Truckloads of oranges being driven into the desert and being
0:35
poured out because they're surplus.
0:37
And it's like, we've got, we've got food we can throw away, but
0:41
but there are people who can't live.
0:42
The moment you can convince somebody that somebody else is
0:45
less than, then you can start doing all the kinds of things
0:47
that that cause pain and hurts and separation and all of that.
0:55
Bratfish, welcome to Success Matters.
0:57
Thank you for joining me on today's show.
1:01
We connected through a platform called Talk Store Co.
1:03
You are a podcast to yourself. I listen to a few of your
1:06
podcasts and what's come across to me in both our conversations
1:11
in preparing for today and the podcast is this really deep
1:14
sense of justice that you have. So what does that come from and
1:18
how did that develop in you? So thanks AJ, thanks for having
1:23
me on the show. You are my first kind of
1:25
connection through that platform.
1:27
And it was, it was good to listen to a couple of your
1:31
podcasts. I noticed in the one that I
1:32
looked at last, the guy was on the treadmill.
1:34
And I'm glad you're not enforcing that, but you're a
1:38
deep, deep sense of justice. It's definitely connected to my
1:41
faith. So I grew up my father's pastor.
1:44
So I grew up in the church and had a deep rooted faith.
1:48
But towards the end of high school, there was kind of this
1:52
kind of moved from something I believed in to something that I
1:55
realized had to be kind of my whole life driven.
1:57
And so just a passion to kind of love God, love people, try and
2:01
make the world a better place for everyone.
2:03
So it definitely roots it in faith, living as a white person
2:07
in South Africa. We've got this heavy past of
2:10
colonialism and apartheid. And so there's this kind of two
2:15
ways to go about it. You either dig your head in the
2:17
sand and pretend that belongs to you, or you've come face to face
2:21
with it one day and realize that actually people that looked like
2:24
you were not all that great to you people that didn't look like
2:27
you. And what was interesting was
2:30
that my, my parents kind of raised us with, with a lived art
2:35
experience of anti apartheid or non racialism.
2:39
Like we, we had black people in our house, which was, I don't
2:42
know if it's illegal, but definitely like not a thing back
2:45
in the day because I'm 52. So I grew up doing kind of the
2:48
ending decades of apartheid. And so they're always kind of
2:51
taught us to, to live well and how they lived, but we never
2:55
actually spoke about things because they came of that
2:57
generation of kids must be seen and not heard.
3:00
So they, they demonstrated it. So I think I grew up believing
3:04
that everyone was the same, grew up believing the value of all
3:07
people from a faith perspective, people created in the image of
3:10
God, all that kind of thing, but came rather late to kind of
3:15
connecting the dots in terms of justice.
3:17
And, and one of the things I think I shared it with you last
3:19
time, I'm most embarrassed about that my kind of conscientization
3:23
or kind of awareness, critical thinking around race happened in
3:26
America of all places. But I spent a couple of years
3:30
there with my wife at the time, Valerie, in kind of social
3:34
justice spaces. We are living in a in a
3:37
community in Kensington in Philadelphia and just connecting
3:40
with a lot of people that that really did a lot of critical
3:43
thinking. And so started us, started us
3:47
asking questions of why. So there's that amazing analogy
3:50
of you can teach a man to fish, give a man a fish and he'll eat
3:54
for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll
3:56
eat for a week. But then the guy we lived with
3:58
and the community we lived with taught us to ask questions like
4:01
who's putting the fence around the pond?
4:03
Why is the water polluted? Why are fishing licenses so
4:06
expensive? And so just going above and
4:08
beyond kind of the simple questions, the black and white,
4:11
realizing that there's systems and structures that kind of hold
4:14
these things in place. And then in terms of where the
4:17
justice came, specifically with regards to race, where a lot of
4:20
kind of the justice conversations I've had are when
4:24
we were in America, we were in Philadelphia for 18 months, then
4:27
we were in California and Oakland for 18 months when the
4:30
whole Black Lives movement started.
4:32
And so Trayvon Martin was killed and Eric Garner were killed and
4:35
a number of kind of publicized names after that.
4:38
And I typically describe myself as as a laziest person.
4:43
So if I'm interested in something, I'll read the
4:44
headline, I'll skim a few things, but but for some reason,
4:48
this this really caught me. And so I'm reading an article
4:51
and then it's got three tabs at the bottom.
4:52
So I'm opening those links and reading those articles and I
4:55
just kind of dove in and immersed myself in it.
4:59
And in America, the people that were writing about it,
5:01
especially in church spaces that I was in, was were generally
5:05
African American women. Men were silent, white men were
5:08
silent. And so, and then there were some
5:10
other white women that that were really influential as well.
5:14
Austin Channing Brown and Carol Cleveland, or two of the African
5:17
American women. And yeah, just various others.
5:21
And then when I, when I flew back to South Africa, because
5:24
the idea was always, we're going to, we went to do 18 months and
5:26
ended up staying for another 18 months with a different
5:29
organization. But we're always coming home.
5:31
South Africa is where my heart is.
5:32
Love this space. Unless I believe God wants me
5:35
somewhere else. If I've got any choice, let's
5:37
go. Yeah.
5:38
But on the plane back home, it's like I can't be a Christian and
5:41
I can't just be a person in South Africa and not focus on
5:45
race. And so I need to, I need to
5:47
learn, I need to listen. I need to hear kind of the
5:49
history story that wasn't the racialized story or apartheid
5:52
story we were fed in our, in our schools growing up.
5:55
And, and so I really just started a journey of, of reading
5:59
a lot of, of listening to people of having conversations and then
6:03
largely fighting with white people on, on social media most,
6:06
most of the time. Yeah, I started with Facebook,
6:09
kind of moved across to Twitter these days, TikTok as well, but
6:13
just engaging with white people around race, around privilege,
6:16
around why we do need to be responsible, why we don't need
6:19
to sit with the white guilt and why there's no white genocide
6:22
happening in South Africa, all of those kind of things.
6:25
And, and, and really connected to my faith.
6:28
And, and I think one of the hardest parts for me was kind of
6:32
looking back, I was a youth leader in a church for most of
6:34
my life, teaching young people not to have sex, not to drink,
6:38
not to do drugs. And, and those things have a
6:41
variety of kind of importance. I'm not saying they're not
6:43
important or whatever, but missing this profound thing that
6:47
the, the, when Jesus is asked what's the most important thing,
6:50
he says love your neighbors yourself.
6:52
And how I find it impossible to live as a Christian and, and to
6:55
hold that genuinely, like you genuinely believe, love your
6:58
neighbors yourself. If you do, then racism, there's
7:02
no space for its sexism. There's no space for its
7:05
discrimination. There's no space for.
7:06
And, and so that really kind of got me on a journey of, of
7:09
seeing how my faith was connected to justice, that it
7:12
wasn't just something I'd missed out as a person, but also that,
7:15
that as a, as a follower of Jesus, as someone who tries to
7:18
be a Christian, that, that that was intrinsic to my belief.
7:22
You're right. Wow, that's, that's really deep.
7:25
So that is really deep because people often find faith later
7:29
on. But you actually had this faith
7:30
from a very young age, your time in America.
7:33
Was that through the church or was that through through some
7:36
sort of other vehicle that you went there?
7:39
Yeah, the first 18 months I read a book called Irresistible
7:42
Revolution, and the guy who wrote it, Shane Claiborne, lived
7:45
in an inner city community and him and a bunch of college mates
7:49
have just moved in and try to be good neighbors.
7:51
That was kind of the heart of it.
7:53
And so my wife at the time and I went there for 18 months kind of
7:57
like interns kind of to get involved in the space.
7:59
And so her role was was involved in practical things.
8:03
So like when we went there, there were people in our house
8:05
that were running kind of a food kitchen and doing after school
8:08
lessons and things like that. And by the time we left, Val had
8:11
done really amazing work in terms of getting the people in
8:14
the community to be running those things.
8:17
And then my role was kind of hospitality.
8:19
So there was a house for people that came to visit and came to
8:22
get like, we try to keep the place safe.
8:24
Like we didn't want it to become like a big tourist attraction,
8:27
but there were a lot of people that were kind of influenced by
8:29
this book wanting to check it out.
8:31
So we did have a means that people could kind of walk safely
8:34
into the space and, and kind of have a sense of what it was
8:37
about. And so my role was to to keep
8:40
the house clean to to welcome them in, to sit with them, to do
8:43
stories. And yeah, we just, we just
8:46
really tried to try to be good neighbors in the space.
8:50
There was a lot of a lot of challenge with it in terms of
8:53
expectation and how things actually played out as they
8:55
often are when when you get close to these organizations.
8:59
But in terms of in terms of loving people, while there was a
9:02
lot of that that we saw just, you know, just allowing us to be
9:06
good neighbors. And, and really, I think our
9:08
critical critical questioning, critical faith were, were really
9:13
built up by various people we've met that were kind of from all
9:17
over America, that we're friends with these people and that lived
9:20
in intentional communities that did faith and life differently.
9:23
And we're really kind of talking about systems and structures and
9:26
how do we do better for everyone in the world.
9:28
And so, so that was really formative.
9:30
And then when we went to California, the guy who ran the
9:32
simple way ran something called common change, which was about
9:36
kind of a collective purse. So small groups of people that
9:39
put money together and then decide how to use that for 1° of
9:43
separation. So what's beautiful about it is
9:45
it encouraged? It was relational giving the
9:49
name of it actually started out as relational tithe, but it's
9:52
the sense that that you give to somebody that you connected to
9:55
so that there's relationship, you're not just handing out.
9:58
And then it was also meant to kind of challenge some of the
10:00
kind of the power that happens with money.
10:02
So if you, if you need money and I'll give you 1000 bucks,
10:04
there's a sense of you owing me that.
10:06
But if I know that you have a need and I could say how I've
10:09
got this group of friends that just want to want to help out
10:11
and they give you the money, there's less of that power
10:13
between US. And so that was one of the
10:16
things, the idea that everyone gives either a percentage or an
10:19
amount. So the guy who gives $1000 and
10:22
the guy who gives $10 have the same amount of votes.
10:25
So relaxing or releasing that power structure.
10:28
So again, just really good means of helping us to think better
10:32
about how we do things and how how things could be done
10:34
differently in a in a society that's starts to try to benefit
10:38
everyone that lives there. Right.
10:40
OK, this is yeah, that's a kind of, as you were talking though,
10:45
that like a lot of mutual society started that way.
10:49
Like in in the UK, we have this concert of building society
10:52
where people pull their resources together to allow
10:56
someone to build a house. And then that person also was
10:59
part of that community. They built another house.
11:01
And so you just collectively did that.
11:03
And that's kind of how it comes across that you created this
11:06
almost cooperative, right, that where everyone benefited from
11:09
that. Yeah, If we just go back a
11:12
little bit to your to your growing up and I mean apartheid
11:16
finished what 1989 I think was. 94 is when the elections
11:22
happened, so early 90s. Yes.
11:24
So we're talking like quite some time back now.
11:28
And for those that weren't for unfamiliar with, you know, what
11:32
happened, I know there's a lot of history around that, but your
11:34
lived experience right as as a white person growing up all be,
11:38
you were young at the time and in that apartheid world.
11:42
What was the experience like for you around that?
11:45
Yeah, I think, I think it was slightly different because, as I
11:48
said, like my parents were really inclusive and really
11:50
welcome people. We had black people living with
11:53
us. We had a black congregation that
11:54
would meet in our church on a Sunday afternoon.
11:57
And one of my memories as a kid was kind of every Christmas
11:59
they, they welcomed us in and we had a celebration.
12:02
And that used to be like such a highlight.
12:04
But I think there's that whole idea of, of people saying like,
12:08
we never knew this thing was going on and we never knew.
12:10
And, and it's so strange because, because I didn't sit
12:13
with the injustice of it all. But yet there were things that
12:17
like you should have meant, So they're buses that only certain
12:20
people can go on. There's beaches that say only
12:23
whites allowed. And so you, you know, but you
12:26
don't really kind of get to the point of understanding, if that
12:30
makes sense. And especially because my
12:33
parents, like they had both kind of like faith and politics
12:37
should be kept separate. It's kind of thinking that a lot
12:39
of people in the church have and, and then just that
12:42
generation of, of not really talking about deep issues with
12:46
children. And so, so there was a lot that
12:49
was kind of missed. Whereas I think the benefit was,
12:51
was just seeing, seeing it played out in real life.
12:55
I was also involved in a number of Christian organizations like
12:57
Scripture Union, Student Christian Association, where the
13:00
leaders were black and what we in South Africa call colored as
13:04
as a separate group of people. I know, I know in America the,
13:07
the terminology is quite offensive, but in South Africa,
13:11
the four main groups are black, white, Indian and colored.
13:14
And so I had a lot of black and colored leaders that were
13:16
incredible Christian leaders. And so again, like there wasn't
13:19
a sense of I never had overt racism modeled to me.
13:23
So people were people. But then I got to see like
13:25
really strong leaders of all colors.
13:28
And so I think that filtered through.
13:30
And so when I had the final like, oh, join the dots, like so
13:33
much of the work had already been done.
13:35
And it's just a pity for me that that that didn't happen earlier
13:38
because I think I think I would have been quite a different kind
13:43
of justice advocates. I know the one thing that is
13:46
kind of strange to me, because I don't know where it goes back,
13:48
but we had conscription in our country.
13:50
So after high school, you'd have to go to the Army for two years.
13:54
And that was quite a quite a race thing, quite a labored
13:56
thing. And I remember I went to
13:59
teachers training college, which allowed me to defer that.
14:02
And then while I was at college, everything ended.
14:05
But there was that sense that I had that I would go to prison
14:07
rather than bear arms. And I don't know, like I know my
14:11
folks aren't program, but so maybe it was influenced by them.
14:15
But I know that I didn't have kind of the justice stance that
14:17
I do today that should have kind of ended up in that same kind of
14:22
conclusion. That's what's going to happen.
14:24
But there was still something in me saying that that that's not
14:27
the route I'm going to go. And maybe it was anti violence
14:29
rather than kind of pro race or kind of pro quality.
14:33
But but you're just looking back, that's like one of the
14:35
weird things. And so there were these these
14:37
strange things that when you look back seems so absolutely
14:39
obvious. The idea of people of color
14:42
eating from different bowls or different cups, you'd have
14:44
special cups for them in places and they'd have to come inside
14:48
entrances in certain places. And so you see the stuff, but
14:51
but there's, there's never kind of that, that, that awakening of
14:55
like or conversation. It really just needed some kind
14:58
of open conversation, I think. And I think, I think my life
15:01
could have been like quite, quite different if, if I'd pick
15:04
things up a little earlier. Yeah, I think the when it's the
15:09
fabric of what you're growing up in that that's where it's not
15:13
obvious that this doesn't feel right or doesn't, it might, you
15:16
might feel that it's not right, but it's like it's not kind of
15:19
hitting you in the face at that time because it's that fabric,
15:22
right? It's all kind of woven into what
15:24
you do. And then and that's really why
15:26
it's interesting that it took you being in the US and the
15:29
black live movements kind of starting up for you to connect
15:33
those dots and see actually there's something not quite
15:35
right here. Even though by that time, of
15:38
course, apartheid had finished and, you know, the the power had
15:41
moved over from the very small number to to the to the yeah, to
15:47
South black South African. So yeah, what was the kind of
15:50
like, what was that epiphany moment for you when you
15:53
connected the dots between your, what you had experienced, the
15:56
upbringing, what Africa was like to being in America?
15:59
The black eye movement comes up and then it's like, oh, OK,
16:02
there's something here. Yeah, I guess they've been a
16:05
really good platform laid just by the people we were meeting
16:08
that were asking better questions.
16:09
And, and so I think kind of the wheels had already been turning.
16:13
I remember in Oakland, I was pulled over by the cops and, and
16:16
just the experience of, of not having any sense of, of fear for
16:21
my life. And then working or we stayed,
16:24
we stayed with this young couple that were, were working with
16:26
community kids that were all kind of African American and
16:29
just hearing some of the stories of what, what happened to them.
16:32
And I remember there was a time in Philly where where cops came
16:35
in and kind of, I forget what the situation was, but I know
16:40
there was like a car bonnet and, and just being really rough
16:43
with, with, with kids of color. And just that sense of there's,
16:46
there's something different playing out here that I don't, I
16:48
don't really have to fear. And yeah.
16:52
And I think it was kind of a growing epiphany when, when Fees
16:57
Must Fall was happening in South Africa.
16:59
We had this two to three-year kind of university strikes and
17:03
protests and things like that. And then police would come in
17:06
and we'd have security police that were, were quite brutal and
17:09
violent in terms of how they dealt with people.
17:12
And I remember being at a protest in town and this was
17:15
kind of somewhere along that journey.
17:17
But each of these things kind of just added to it.
17:19
And we were part of a group called, I forget what the name
17:23
was, but but we were peace, peace witnesses basically.
17:26
And we had white vests saying peace, peace.
17:31
And we were there just to observe.
17:32
So we weren't there to pick sides.
17:33
We weren't there. We were just kind of there to de
17:35
escalate when violence happened and to be especially white
17:38
people stepping in front of people of color to, to try and
17:41
kind of de escalate that. And, and there was a time when a
17:44
protest in town, in Cape Town went, went wrongs.
17:47
Things were happening and it was peaceful and things were going.
17:49
And then suddenly there was this moment where everyone's running
17:51
and police are driving around the city shooting people with
17:54
rubber bullets. And, and it got real like
17:56
nothing like what apartheid people had to face.
17:58
But as a, as a kind of sheltered white guy, just like you're
18:01
running around in the city, you there's this impression that I'm
18:04
going to get shot by police. And then I just remember that
18:07
there were five of us. So a friend of mine or a friend
18:09
of my wife vows and myself. And then three other people were
18:12
hiding beyond this car. And we saw the police car in the
18:15
next Rd. kind of driving along, shooting at people.
18:18
And then this car came, came right, police car came right in
18:21
front of the car. We're hiding So about two meters
18:23
away. And the one friend, her name is
18:28
just disappeared from me for a moment.
18:30
Thin, thin white girl just stepped up in front of the guns
18:33
with her hands in the air. And there was just such a sense
18:35
of like, there's, there's a power here.
18:39
They're not, they're not going to shoot me.
18:41
And, and just being able to sit there knowing that that just
18:44
because of the color of my skin. There was another story that
18:46
happened in Newlands, just a couple of kilometers away, where
18:49
they were a group of black people were, were like the
18:52
police were coming on them and white people formed a chain
18:54
around them. And just like those are some
18:56
things that white people never really or typical white people
19:00
won't pick up on gate And just through the experiences, through
19:03
seeing them, through listening to people, through kind of
19:06
reading about stuff, it starts to stick more and more.
19:09
So I think, I think there was a moment of epiphany because Black
19:12
Lives Matter. The the events were happening
19:14
kind of so quickly and so freakishly and, and so
19:16
blatantly. And then kind of a short or, or
19:20
a slowing down of time as I fly back to South Africa.
19:23
And then we got a real bonus. Just after we got back to South
19:25
Africa, a friend of ours took a trip to Robben Island, where
19:29
people people go and visit. And we got to go stay there for
19:33
a weekend with a bunch of young activist Christian leaders.
19:36
And somehow. Robben Island is where Nelson
19:39
Mandela and the actors were. And so I've never actually been
19:43
as a tourist, but but we got the whole weekend.
19:45
So we got to see things that I think tourists don't get to see.
19:48
And as I was leaving the island, I picked up a book called How
19:51
Can Man Die Better? And it's the story of another
19:54
South African leader, Robert Sabuque, who most people don't
19:58
or certainly most white people don't know about.
20:00
And I I believe that he was kind of the leader South Africa
20:02
missed out on, even even taking Mandela into account where he
20:07
had his own kind of little Hut on Robben Island, keeping him
20:10
away from the other prisoners because they believed his ideas
20:13
were such a threat to to other people.
20:17
And then the constitution was actually changed twice to keep
20:19
him on the island because I think he was only allowed to
20:21
stay there for 18 months. And then they changed the
20:23
constitution to keep him there and then kept him there again.
20:26
And then they kind of banished him to the middle of the country
20:28
somewhere. And he was under house arrest.
20:31
And he eventually, I think he died of, of natural causes or
20:34
disease or something like that, but but just kind of kept away.
20:37
And that's, that thought is just wild to me, kind of like a some
20:43
of these like Malcolm X or Martin Luther King Junior,
20:45
whatever that that are just too, too, too scary for to be allowed
20:49
near the public because their ideas are so big.
20:51
And so that again was just another story that just helped
20:54
me go, yo, there's there's work that needs to be done and I need
20:57
to actively be part of it. So the story of the the thin
21:04
white woman holding her hands up in many ways, because you
21:06
touched on white privileges, we started to write that is kind of
21:09
white privilege, right? That you can put your hands up
21:11
in front of the cops and feel that you're going to be safe
21:14
versus if you're a person of color, you might be worried to
21:19
do that because if I end up being maybe not shot, but
21:23
manhandled in a particular way or whatever.
21:26
And one of the, the other aspects of how I try and
21:31
sometimes talk when there are conversations about white
21:34
privilege or not quite often, like particularly here, here in
21:39
the UK where I'm based, black parents will have a chat with
21:43
their child about what to do if you're stopped by the cops,
21:47
whereas a white parent probably won't have to have that
21:49
conversation. And that's this kind of just a
21:52
simple way of, you know, looking at it, you know, of there's,
21:56
there's that kind of privilege that's there simply because the
21:58
color of your skin, which shouldn't exist, right?
22:01
But it does, unfortunately. And that's the way things have
22:04
happened in in the world. And it's wild to me just how,
22:08
because that example you mentioned, I remember reading an
22:11
article of a mother in, in America, same thing.
22:13
And it's just so wild that the the lived experiences are so
22:16
different because it never, it won't enter a white person's
22:20
kind of psyche. Like you don't even think about
22:23
it. And for black people, people of
22:25
color especially, I think probably not even with, with
22:27
heightened things happening all around the world.
22:30
Like there's, there's those moments of going, if I don't do
22:33
this, my child might not live. And white people just not even a
22:37
question. We, we are up in Joburg recently
22:40
and we did what I call a deep dive conversation, just getting
22:43
a diversity of people in the room and just having
22:45
conversation around a question. And the question we sat with
22:47
was, what is it like for me living as a white person, black
22:51
person, colored person in South Africa?
22:52
And each person spoke to the different thing.
22:55
And, and they were, there was a mixed couple, so a black man, a
23:00
white woman. And they spoke about how some of
23:03
their stories were about how they've been pulled over by the
23:05
cops and they thought it was a drug deal.
23:08
Like is, is she selling drugs or is she getting drugs from him?
23:12
There were another time when they questioned the kids.
23:14
Is this your mom when she was picking them up from school
23:16
because she doesn't look like them.
23:17
And that is horrific stuff that that most of us does never have
23:21
to think about or not most of us the minimum numbers so that
23:24
white S Africans make up 7% of the population.
23:28
We don't think about that. It's it's not a thing.
23:30
And and yet as as you start hearing stories, then then it
23:34
builds empathy and it starts you realizing that that we have to
23:36
change things because nobody should be going through that.
23:40
Yeah. So this just journey has taken
23:41
you. Well, it's been been your
23:43
lifetime, right? It's been what you've been
23:45
doing. So what, what do you do today?
23:48
What's the kind of main role that you play today?
23:51
You also I've got, I've got kind of 2 1/2 jobs.
23:54
I work with an organization called Hotlines that we story
23:59
storytelling based kind of connection with people.
24:02
We've just pivoted away from three different programs.
24:05
We had to focus on our main program, which is called
24:08
Father's Matter. And we talk about the positive,
24:11
active presence of men in the lives of children.
24:14
And so we've got, I mean, you can check that out on, I think
24:16
it's on YouTube, on the hotline's website.
24:18
There's 7 short movies that are powerful, powerful stories,
24:22
South African stories with subtitles.
24:24
That's that address different areas of, of being a parent.
24:28
Is the man just the ATM? Is, is presence necessary?
24:32
Can you be present even if you can't be physically present?
24:36
What is the role of social fathers if a father's not there?
24:39
You've got uncles and coaches and youth leaders and stuff like
24:41
that. So I go into different
24:43
communities and, and I'll show the movies and I run workshops
24:46
and we walk alongside leaders. The statistic in South Africa is
24:49
horrific that I think it's closer to 70%.
24:53
But the one on our on our presentation still says 60% of
24:57
children grew up without a male figure in the house.
25:01
And so that's, that's, yeah, that's just crazy.
25:04
And and that becomes risk factors for gender based
25:07
violence and drugs and teenage pregnancy and all those things.
25:10
And so as an organization, we just met in Joburg recently and
25:14
our, our bold, audacious aim is to halve fatherlessness in a
25:18
generation. So it's a 30 year goal.
25:20
It's very bold and brave. But I think, I think if we could
25:24
30 years from now have 30% of, of children grow up in those
25:27
kind of families, the, the whole framework of the country would
25:30
change. Even if you look at the
25:31
leadership and corruption and all those kind of things like
25:35
so, so we see lack of strong role model fatherhood as the
25:39
root of of many kinds of issues. So that's kind of my main job.
25:43
I do a side job with a friend of mine who started a company
25:45
called Activate Leaders and we do online business coaching,
25:48
which I've really been enjoying, just working a journey with
25:51
people, giving them small steps and pivots and things that have
25:54
kind of huge outcomes over time. And then in September last year,
25:58
I started as a part time youth leader at my church.
26:00
I've been a youth leader most of my life.
26:02
So it's kind of dipping back into something that I did 20
26:05
years ago and you're thoroughly enjoying that.
26:08
We've got quite a small church. So it's just working with a
26:10
bunch of young people trying to get them to actively wrestle
26:13
with their faith. Why do you believe what you
26:15
believe? How does what you believe
26:17
effects things around you? And, and all those kind of
26:19
things? What's the relevance of it in
26:21
the country today? So those those are some of the
26:24
things you know, some of the things that keep you busy.
26:27
So we have very much in the service of others, right in the
26:29
service of the community and the service of your faith, which is
26:32
which is really great. So as you know, this podcast is
26:36
called Success Matters. So what does success look like
26:39
or mean to you? You know, what does success
26:42
mean? That's a great, great question.
26:45
I'm sure you've probably had different answers from different
26:48
people as I was thinking about it earlier today.
26:50
Just like that's obviously going to be the heart of this.
26:52
What what do I think success is? The answer that comes straight
26:56
to me is people in faith, like in Christianity, there's a lot
27:00
of people that have this idea if you've got to win souls for the
27:03
Lord and and while there's there's some intrinsic truth
27:07
somewhere and all of that, it's it disappears the fact that
27:10
people are people. And when Jesus was walking
27:13
around like he cared about how we living now, how we engaging
27:18
with each other. And so I think I think that that
27:20
for me is it. And so kind of even with my
27:23
podcast out of the fishbowl, there's two main focus points
27:26
which I think for me are success.
27:27
Firstly, how am IA better version of Brett Anderson from
27:30
yesterday? Even if I'm slightly better,
27:33
Have I worked on something? Have I stopped that irritating
27:36
habits? Have I added a skill?
27:38
Can I can I be a little bit better than I was for yesterday?
27:41
And then the second thing is community.
27:44
Am I making the world a bit of a better place around me, like
27:48
better than it was yesterday? And I think mobilizing and
27:51
motivating other people to do the same.
27:52
How do we kind of get this pay it forward thing happening?
27:56
How do we get the world to collectively work together to
27:58
make the world better? And that seems like it's very
28:01
much not rocket science, but it kind of seems like rocket
28:04
science some days in terms of how the world operates.
28:06
It's about money, it's about fame, it's about producing all
28:09
these things. But I think if I leave the world
28:12
a better place than it was before I came, then then job
28:15
well done. OK, that's, that's cool.
28:19
I think that that just ties in with everything you've been
28:22
saying so far about your journey and your story.
28:25
And it actually leads very well to the question that my last
28:29
guest asked for my next guest. So I have a tradition, which
28:33
I've borrowed from another very famous podcast to ask the
28:36
previous guest for a question for a future guest.
28:39
And my last guest asked this question, which is what would
28:43
the world need to look like for your children to grow up and
28:46
unfold their full potential? Sure.
28:52
I, I mean, I feel like like I have a dream kind of comes to
28:57
mind, right. OK, that that our children can
29:00
play together. I think even though racism is is
29:04
probably not kind of the biggest issue in the world, I think it's
29:09
the dehumanization that is in racism that is in sexism that is
29:13
in kind of anything where where hatred or bigotry or fear allows
29:18
to work. And and I think I think a world
29:21
that just works kind of the same for everyone in it.
29:25
I don't know. I don't know that we could
29:27
figure out a money system that worked for everyone, but this
29:29
idea that that people can, can have billions and, and other
29:33
people can't get a piece of bread like that doesn't sit well
29:36
for me. So I think it would definitely
29:37
fall along the lines of some kind of equity or just enough
29:42
like basic needs can. Can we just have enough 'cause I
29:45
think, I think if you've got enough, then you can start doing
29:49
exciting adventurous things. I think of some of our metrics,
29:52
which is our, our last year of school in, in South Africa.
29:55
And so our life group has just been chatting to a school about
29:58
how, how we can maybe help them and, and for more tricks riding
30:00
their final exams. Some of them aren't eating.
30:04
And so how are you meant to write an exam?
30:06
How are you meant to learn? How are you meant to show up
30:08
when, when you can't even eat? And so, and, and then you've
30:11
got, I mean, I remember an image from maybe 20 years ago.
30:15
One of the most disgusting things I ever saw was was
30:17
truckloads of oranges being driven into the desert and being
30:20
poured out because they're surplus.
30:22
And it's like, we've got, we've got food we can throw away, But,
30:26
but there are people who can't live or we've got people that
30:29
are, are, are pushing, pushing stuff away because they ordered
30:33
too much or leftovers or freezers and, and people digging
30:36
in trash just to just to try and make it through the day.
30:38
So I think, I think some sense of, of kind of equity of, of
30:42
everybody just just has enough. How do we, how do we define
30:46
that? I don't know, but I think and
30:49
then just just that that people all kind of arrive equally.
30:52
That's that we aren't judged as less than for how we look, how
30:56
we sound, how we show up. I think, I think that would go a
31:00
long way. I think that would probably go
31:02
go the furthest to creating the kind of world where where then
31:05
kids can just adventure. Kids can get excited and you see
31:09
it in children, right? You put them together, they
31:10
don't they don't see color. Like we, we learned that racism
31:13
is taught and if you can get to them before it's taught and you
31:17
just see how they just have friends.
31:19
This is my friends. There's that lovely video where
31:22
they put like black and white kids together and they like
31:24
describe the differences and, and the kid is like, oh, she's
31:27
tall. He's whatever it is.
31:30
And there's just nothing about race.
31:31
And I think, I think just being able to so, so link it back to
31:35
my faith, like each person has created the image of God.
31:38
I think if we truly could believe that, then we'd change
31:41
up the way that we, we dealt with other people and we change
31:44
the way we ran the world and we change our economic systems.
31:47
We'd, we'd definitely be doing a lot better in terms of war,
31:52
gender based violence, all those kind of things.
31:54
If because the moment, I think that's the trick, right?
31:57
The moment you can convince somebody that somebody else is
31:59
less than, then then you can start doing all the kinds of
32:02
things that that cause pain and hurts and separation and all of
32:06
that. Yeah, I, I, I call it other
32:08
ring. It's like other people are the
32:10
fault cause of my misery, if you like.
32:13
And then you just kind of get amplified, especially in today's
32:17
world of social media where the algorithm picks up that you've
32:20
started to follow something along those lines.
32:22
So it's just feeds you more and more and you start to believe in
32:25
that more and more as a result of that.
32:27
And now, now your whole world is my fault.
32:31
My problems are all caused by these other people, right?
32:33
Whatever that might be. And that's a massive problem.
32:37
So your, your mission to, to change the world is, is very
32:42
remarkable. And of course, the world is a
32:44
big place, right? So we can only do those little
32:46
things that we can do that will make the world a better place.
32:49
And you're doing it. I'm doing it through this
32:51
podcast. And I'm hoping when my listeners
32:53
listen to this or view it on YouTube that they take something
32:56
and do something with it to make the world a better place because
32:59
we've just outlined it's exactly what we need to do.
33:02
Do you have a question for my next guest?
33:04
I do and I hope it's not too simple, but I literally have the
33:09
question what matters? What matters OK, no, that that's
33:13
perfect. It ties in well with the title.
33:15
Success matters. So what else matters right in in
33:18
your life? And so now I I think that's
33:21
great. The all the questions are are
33:24
worth, you know that there's no kind of right or wrong on
33:27
question to be putting forward. And so that's cool.
33:30
And I think I would say right, based on what you've said, what
33:33
matters to you is this deep sense of justice and you know
33:36
that that sort of equity and equality that they should be in
33:39
place. Is there anything else you would
33:41
add into that mix as to what matters to you?
33:45
I think, I think, I mean I'll speak about people, but but
33:48
communities. So I I love the phrase family.
33:51
You are friends and friends who are family.
33:54
I've got an older and a younger sister and in the last 10 years,
33:57
they both one lives in the USA, one lives in the UK.
34:00
And so we, we as far apart as we could be, but specifically
34:04
through a WhatsApp group and through visits and through
34:07
connection, like they, they've become really good friends to
34:09
me. And, and much more than I was
34:11
always quite close to my younger sister.
34:13
But my older sister, and it's been through some traumatic
34:16
events in both of our lives, my divorce, some stuff that she
34:20
went through and her family went through that that pulled us
34:22
together. And so they are family who are
34:25
friends and then just friends who are family.
34:27
I've got, I've got friends who are just so close that they feel
34:30
like blood. And I think, I think how can I
34:34
be that? Because I can't, I can't kind of
34:36
determine how anyone else does that to me.
34:37
But how can I show up as a friend and family to, to people
34:40
around me? And I, I, I like to be, and I
34:43
think I am somebody that, that does connection really well.
34:46
So, so I'll stay connected to my friends.
34:48
I'll be the one to message them and invite them and encourage
34:50
them and all that kind of thing. And so, so, so being connected
34:54
and, and loving the people you love really well.
34:57
And I think what that does is it helps me to kind of foster the
35:02
kind of love that I'm wanting to have for those outside of that
35:05
group because not everyone can be kind of close knit family and
35:08
friends, but it makes loving other people even easier, I
35:10
think. Yeah, and that ripple effect of
35:13
you loving someone like a friend or family or that does actually
35:18
impact them and the way in which they interact with other people
35:21
as well. So it does spread, spread out,
35:23
as it were. We're at the top of our time
35:25
now, Brett. It's been a really, really great
35:26
conversation. Thank you.
35:29
If it wants to get in touch with you, we'll find out more about
35:31
the work you're doing. What's the best way for them to
35:33
do so? Yeah, most of my handles are at
35:37
Brit fish AI think on TikTok on Brit the fish because that was
35:42
already taken. And then I guess if if you don't
35:45
mind, like I've got a poetry book that came out earlier this
35:48
year called Not Water, just ice or justice.
35:51
And it's a bunch of poetry that that has justice themes that's
35:56
available on Amazon. I know it's available in the UK
35:58
as well. And so yeah, I think just any of
36:02
the social medias, if you put Brit fish a, you will likely
36:05
come upon me. TikTok is where I spend most of
36:08
my time. I used to, I used to live in
36:09
Facebook and Twitter land, but I've started engaging people,
36:13
especially around race. And yeah, come hang out, come
36:16
comment. We do live sometimes.
36:18
You can come have a conversation with me online which will be
36:20
read. OK, cool.
36:22
Well, thank you very much for taking part in Success Matters.
36:24
Thanks. Really appreciate it.
36:25
Really, really enjoyed our conversation.
36:28
Yeah. Thank you.
36:29
To find your success, contact me at info at
36:32
successmatterscoachingcom. That's info at
36:36
successmatterscoachingcom.