Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #499 Guest Host Earlonne Woods with Joaquin Ciria

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#499 Guest Host Earlonne Woods with Joaquin Ciria · Wrongful Conviction

0:01
Speaker 1: On the night of March twenty fourth, nineteen ninety, Felix
0:04
Speaker 1: Costo Rico was walking down an alley in San Francisco's
0:08
Speaker 1: Mission District. Witnesses saw a man get out of a
0:10
Speaker 1: white money Carlo and confront Felix, and the two started arguing. Suddenly,
0:16
Speaker 1: a shot rang out and Felix fell to the ground dead.
0:20
Speaker 1: The shooter jumped back into the car and sped away
0:22
Speaker 1: with another man at the wheel. By the next morning,
0:26
Speaker 1: rumors were flying around the streets that the shooter was
0:28
Speaker 1: a lifelong friend of Felix's, Joaquin Syria. They had grown
0:32
Speaker 1: up together in Cuba. Word was that the two were
0:35
Speaker 1: in a dispute over money. Joaquin had been out earlier
0:38
Speaker 1: that evening with a friend who drove a white money Carlo,
0:41
Speaker 1: but he claimed to be home with his wife and
0:43
Speaker 1: baby son for the night by the time the crime
0:45
Speaker 1: was committed. After viewing several lineups that included Joaquin's picture,
0:50
Speaker 1: two eyewitnesses id'd him as the man they seen. One
0:54
Speaker 1: witness claimed that she was eighty percent certain and that
0:58
Speaker 1: was close enough for the jury. But this is wrongful conviction.
1:16
Speaker 1: Welcome back to romeful conviction. I'm Mariline Woods, co creator
1:19
Speaker 1: and co hosts of the Ear Hustle podcast, guest hosting
1:22
Speaker 1: for Jason flummer Day. And I gotta tell you I
1:25
Speaker 1: served over twenty seven years in prison, and I used
1:28
Speaker 1: to always think about the people who were in here
1:31
Speaker 1: that were actually innocent, you know, dealing with the day
1:34
Speaker 1: to day grinding rigor of prison life. And that brings
1:38
Speaker 1: us to our guest today, Joaquin Sariah. Joaquin. Welcome to
1:41
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction.
1:42
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you.
1:44
Speaker 1: Cool cool. And here to help tell Joaquin's story is
1:48
Speaker 1: Paige Kanap. She's the supervising attorney at the Northern California
1:52
Speaker 1: Innocent Project. Paige, thanks for being here.
1:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am super excited to meet you, Arline. I'm
1:58
Speaker 3: super happy to be with you.
2:00
Speaker 1: Morning. Joaquin. Can you tell me, like, since you from Cuba,
2:05
Speaker 1: what was your life like growing up growing now in Kilwow?
2:08
Speaker 2: It was beautiful. It was beautiful, you know for me
2:12
Speaker 2: to be a child growing now in my country. You know,
2:15
Speaker 2: so rein them my family frame and kill what you
2:19
Speaker 2: do a lot of teams you know that you're not
2:22
Speaker 2: able to do in this country. You know, I remember
2:25
Speaker 2: you know that in kill what we who to play
2:27
Speaker 2: you know in the three to one o'cloud two o'cline
2:31
Speaker 2: the morning, and it was no dingy everybody know everybody,
2:35
Speaker 2: you know, because it's an island. I had a royal
2:39
Speaker 2: beautiful shaohoo.
2:41
Speaker 1: Got you, got you, got you. So when you were
2:43
Speaker 1: a youngster, the US and Cuba was beefing. You know,
2:46
Speaker 1: they have a pretty fraud history, you know, the Missile crisis,
2:50
Speaker 1: the Communist revolt and bargoes. Not really a free flowing dialogue.
2:55
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, like, what were your impressions of
2:58
Speaker 1: the United States back.
3:00
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me tell you this, man, everybody
3:02
Speaker 2: c what the majority we grow out believing everything that
3:06
Speaker 2: we're watching the TV about the United States. We really
3:10
Speaker 2: believe that Superman really exists. Anything that you go out
3:15
Speaker 2: from United States, we really believe that. Brother, you know,
3:20
Speaker 2: you know in we watch so brainwatched, you know that
3:24
Speaker 2: when we're watching movie A Superman, Wonder Woman, we really
3:29
Speaker 2: believe that these type of people exist in the United States.
3:35
Speaker 1: You know, unbelievable. So this see how I grow out
3:39
Speaker 1: and and and and wa quing. You knew the victim
3:43
Speaker 1: in this case, Phyllis bastar Rica. When you were a kid,
3:46
Speaker 1: back in Cuba.
3:47
Speaker 2: You know, a Phillis we all call hi colitles. He
3:51
Speaker 2: was close to my neighborhood, so mini mini minie time.
3:56
Speaker 2: We who to skate from the school to go swimming
3:59
Speaker 2: in the ocean, you know, go go hip some mango
4:02
Speaker 2: sugar cane. Everybody liked to be around Philly. You know,
4:07
Speaker 2: if you go into a party, you want him to
4:09
Speaker 2: be there. He was only laughing all the time, making
4:14
Speaker 2: a lot of joke. Definitely, he was a good friend, right.
4:19
Speaker 1: And I'm just curious, did you come from like a
4:23
Speaker 1: political family over in Cuba.
4:25
Speaker 2: My father he was a revolutionary, you know, he was
4:28
Speaker 2: a Commonist. He fight with they got through, you see,
4:33
Speaker 2: if they got got the power way. My father was
4:36
Speaker 2: a part of that. Yeah, the majority of my family
4:40
Speaker 2: they really believed, you know, in the Commonies. And it
4:44
Speaker 2: was problem in the house, you know, because we all
4:46
Speaker 2: got different views. Since my ely age, I got really
4:50
Speaker 2: really big trouble to fit in the Commonist party. I
4:54
Speaker 2: got trouble with that. So you know, at the age
4:57
Speaker 2: of eighteen, I was called to be in the army.
5:00
Speaker 2: I was in high school at that time. But they
5:03
Speaker 2: don't care. That was a man that told it called.
5:06
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of young people escape because we
5:09
Speaker 2: don't want to do that, you know, to go fight
5:12
Speaker 2: to some other country, like a lot of Joonts in Cuba,
5:15
Speaker 2: they were saying to Angola to fight a lot of
5:19
Speaker 2: all these young people got killed, you know. So me
5:22
Speaker 2: and I say, oh, I don't want to do that.
5:26
Speaker 2: So when I was called to be in the army,
5:29
Speaker 2: I remember that I was there maybe for about sismon
5:34
Speaker 2: and I escape. A lot of Johns they do that.
5:37
Speaker 2: After I escape, I go to my fatherly house and
5:41
Speaker 2: I spend some time with my family. Into my father
5:45
Speaker 2: come and told me, and he said, you know what,
5:47
Speaker 2: walking I don't want no trouble with the government. You
5:50
Speaker 2: have to give it, you say, do the right thing,
5:53
Speaker 2: you know. And and I respect my family, you know,
5:56
Speaker 2: I love my father so more that this is how
5:58
Speaker 2: I aim. Then, you know, in prison, you know in Cuba,
6:02
Speaker 2: it's not like right here, you know, right here, I
6:04
Speaker 2: waiting something hoppy to your yoka crying right in two
6:08
Speaker 2: or three days they take.
6:10
Speaker 1: You to court your due process.
6:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, in kull White difity in Culba, they directed you, Yeah,
6:15
Speaker 2: you can be out thea for one through three four. Yeah,
6:18
Speaker 2: I never go to court. Yeah, they see how it
6:22
Speaker 2: is in Kiwa damn.
6:25
Speaker 1: So in May of nineteen eighty, after spending some time
6:30
Speaker 1: in prison, you fled Cuba as a part of the
6:33
Speaker 1: Mario boat left, which from my understanding was a mass
6:37
Speaker 1: migration of around one hundred and twenty five thousand Cubans
6:41
Speaker 1: that was sanctioned by both Jimmy Carter and Fidale Castro.
6:45
Speaker 1: You were still a teenager at that time, right, yeah,
6:47
Speaker 1: And I want to ask you what do you remember
6:49
Speaker 1: about the boat ride from Cuba to Florida because I
6:52
Speaker 1: used to always see it on the news, you know,
6:54
Speaker 1: individuals on floats and stuff like that coming from Cuba.
6:57
Speaker 1: What what do you remember about that boat ride?
7:00
Speaker 2: Well, Frosseto, to be honest with you, bro, I see
7:04
Speaker 2: a lot of ball when I was in the ocean,
7:07
Speaker 2: you know, and we're talking about a ball that you
7:10
Speaker 2: might can pull twenty or thirty people in that ball.
7:14
Speaker 2: So what the Cuba government was doing need instead or
7:18
Speaker 2: pull twenty or thirty people? They who to put two
7:22
Speaker 2: hundred people in the bowl. So imagining and let me
7:27
Speaker 2: tell you, Mane, I see with my own eyes how
7:31
Speaker 2: a lot of ball that's appeal you know, in the
7:35
Speaker 2: ocean one minute that was next to us, and when
7:39
Speaker 2: I look, it's not a te anomal, it is like
7:42
Speaker 2: it is gone. So it was really, really really it
7:47
Speaker 2: was really ugly, you know, right.
7:50
Speaker 1: So fortunately for you you got here safely and you
7:55
Speaker 1: landed in Key West, Florida. Can you tell me what
7:58
Speaker 1: your feelings were when you first read the United States?
8:01
Speaker 2: At that moment, I feel, you know, I watched Hoppy. Yeah, yah,
8:05
Speaker 2: I wa Hoppy completely. You know that I fleck. I
8:09
Speaker 2: watched Hoppy. You know that. I mean you not a
8:11
Speaker 2: state that I don't have to live it a field
8:13
Speaker 2: no more. I don't have to water, you know about that?
8:16
Speaker 2: I going and they killed Biddy. Govin ain't on Sonty
8:19
Speaker 2: like that. I know. I washed the most power with
8:23
Speaker 2: fo komtri in the war. So that moment, anything that
8:29
Speaker 2: they told me WILLILL believe it.
8:32
Speaker 1: So over the next few years, you kind of skipped
8:34
Speaker 1: around to a few different cities and you finally ended
8:38
Speaker 1: up in San Francisco living with a woman named Nellie Hernandez.
8:42
Speaker 1: Nelly was a little older than you, and she has
8:44
Speaker 1: six kids. And back then you were hanging out with
8:48
Speaker 1: a couple of your partners from Cuba, your childhood friend
8:51
Speaker 1: Felix Costa Rica who had also made it to the US.
8:54
Speaker 1: And a guy named Robert Socorro. And there was another
8:58
Speaker 1: cat from Cuba that was a hustler name Candido ds
9:01
Speaker 1: What did you know about him?
9:03
Speaker 2: You know, Candido Dias, what I know about him? You
9:07
Speaker 2: know that he's a cute one. You know, he was
9:10
Speaker 2: living in San Francisco in the Sta Hotel, you know,
9:13
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety. And I never think, you know, he
9:19
Speaker 2: had any typeo or bad feeling about me, a fat
9:23
Speaker 2: that I know. You know, we're talking sometimes and you
9:27
Speaker 2: know when you got the feeling that you don't click
9:31
Speaker 2: with the persion, you know, that's the way I feel,
9:33
Speaker 2: that the way he feel. But we never let it,
9:36
Speaker 2: you know, past to the level or having any type
9:40
Speaker 2: of problem with him.
9:42
Speaker 1: Okay, And when you was in San Francisco and asked
9:45
Speaker 1: us what was the San Francisco Police Department like?
9:54
Speaker 2: So in nineteen ninety in San Francisco Police Department, it
9:59
Speaker 2: was really really really I could root department. I already
10:06
Speaker 2: you know, listening in the three what they were doing,
10:09
Speaker 2: how they brand drag on people car you know, and
10:14
Speaker 2: and all that type of stuff. You know. Of course,
10:18
Speaker 2: not everybody, not every police is doing you know, some
10:22
Speaker 2: really Torigan, they really got some a lot of bad apple,
10:28
Speaker 2: you know in the San Francis Complete department. Hyah my
10:52
Speaker 2: twenty four, nineteen ninety. You know, my personal life at
10:55
Speaker 2: that time it was changing, you know for the bet
10:59
Speaker 2: you know, I mean my baby's mama, you know, Johanna
11:02
Speaker 2: pays about almost about a jayago before my son was born.
11:07
Speaker 2: I was a happy man, you know at that time,
11:09
Speaker 2: and all my friend, oh, my friend, what's happy with
11:12
Speaker 2: me too? You know, roveto socorro he was happy if
11:15
Speaker 2: Philidy who took coming to my house. It was a
11:19
Speaker 2: happy time for me, right, you know, at that time.
11:23
Speaker 1: Until, of course, your good friend Felix Basto Rico was killed,
11:27
Speaker 1: which happened on the night of March twenty fourth of
11:29
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. So Paige, can you can you walk us
11:33
Speaker 1: through what transpired that night?
11:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what we know is that Felix Pasta Rica
11:38
Speaker 3: was walking down the street with a plastic bag. We've
11:42
Speaker 3: since learned from Roberto SoCoRo that Roberto was in hiding.
11:45
Speaker 3: He had just killed someone and had asked Felix to
11:48
Speaker 3: bring him some clothes and toilet trees and stuff. So
11:51
Speaker 3: he's walking over to the bay Bridge Motel where Roberto is.
11:55
Speaker 3: And in Clara Alley, which is sort of perpendicular to
12:00
Speaker 3: the Baybridge Motel, there are people. There's a guy in
12:03
Speaker 3: a car, Kenneth stuff, and there's a woman up in
12:05
Speaker 3: the window, Kathleen Guovara, and they both hear this loud altercation,
12:10
Speaker 3: this loud argument in the alleyway, and describe these two
12:14
Speaker 3: people kind of walking back and forth interacting with each other.
12:18
Speaker 3: There's a white Monte Carlo that the guy with the
12:19
Speaker 3: gun gets out of and he shoots Felix Pastrica in
12:23
Speaker 3: the street and jumps back in the white Monte Carlo
12:26
Speaker 3: and drives off right.
12:29
Speaker 1: And that even in Joaquin, you were spending time with
12:32
Speaker 1: another friend, eighteen year old George Varilla, who was actually
12:36
Speaker 1: the son of your former girlfriend Nellie Hernandez.
12:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I remain. Me and Joe Barrela, we who
12:42
Speaker 2: to be real close when he wasched, you know around
12:45
Speaker 2: a nine. Yeah, oh, we who to go to the
12:48
Speaker 2: video Keda all the time. We watched Aditta to play video.
12:54
Speaker 2: I'm to be honesty, I feel, you know, even when
12:57
Speaker 2: I watch young I feel like he watch my son.
13:00
Speaker 1: Right.
13:01
Speaker 2: He would come to my house almost every two three days.
13:05
Speaker 1: Okay, so can you tell us like what you and
13:09
Speaker 1: you know George got into on the evening of March
13:11
Speaker 1: twenty fourth, before y'all have parted ways.
13:15
Speaker 2: I remembered that nine that wasn't home with my family.
13:19
Speaker 2: You know, I expaid that, you know, to stay home.
13:21
Speaker 2: I was in May and I received a phone call
13:24
Speaker 2: from your So when I got the phone your he
13:28
Speaker 2: started told me and he said, hey, man, what you're doing?
13:31
Speaker 2: I said, man, I'm right here. You know, I spent
13:32
Speaker 2: some time with Johanna and with my son. Man, I bow,
13:36
Speaker 2: why we don't go to play video? So he conveys
13:39
Speaker 2: me and I go out with here and he come
13:42
Speaker 2: out to peep me out. It is white Monte Carlo.
13:46
Speaker 1: Oh, George Rilla drove a white money Carlo.
13:48
Speaker 2: He got a white Monte Carlo. He peeped me out.
13:51
Speaker 2: Almost around seven o'clock we go to the CAA to
13:55
Speaker 2: play video. I remember that we got there almost around seven.
14:00
Speaker 2: Your saving toty with what play video? Buado the Blue?
14:03
Speaker 2: He come out and told me and said, hey, what
14:05
Speaker 2: can I have to go back to my house because
14:07
Speaker 2: my girlfriend. She come out from Richmond, so to make
14:10
Speaker 2: this toy show.
14:11
Speaker 1: We leave, and when you left, you didn't go straight home.
14:13
Speaker 1: You enjoyed stopped by Gallon's Bar first, where a lot
14:16
Speaker 1: of Cubans and Puerto Ricans ain't got at to see
14:19
Speaker 1: if you might meet up with a friend of yours there,
14:22
Speaker 1: But instead you ran into another guy, Roberto Hernandez, who
14:27
Speaker 1: was not exactly a friend.
14:29
Speaker 2: We don't get along, you know me, and he got
14:31
Speaker 2: a fire side. After I see my friend Manolo, I
14:34
Speaker 2: talking with Manolo for a little while and got to
14:37
Speaker 2: the fight. Joe Barrella take me home. I got to
14:41
Speaker 2: my house around a twenty five h eight toty Navid,
14:45
Speaker 2: I leave my how a game And did you know
14:47
Speaker 2: what you was wearing that night? Yeah? Yeah, that's something
14:50
Speaker 2: that I never go and forget that, Navid, because at
14:52
Speaker 2: that time, I don't know if you remain me that
14:55
Speaker 2: a lot of young people Epecio black people like me,
14:59
Speaker 2: we who to with that type post Jackie letter, JACKI
15:02
Speaker 2: you know that it washed all colorful letter, Jaki Song said.
15:07
Speaker 2: Ko Mamba Squad Song said, how roly So Coverda got you?
15:13
Speaker 2: I don't think that I think that I even can
15:16
Speaker 2: sleep with that Jackey d C how to much I know,
15:20
Speaker 2: Michael Mama squad. Yeah, and they see how I get
15:23
Speaker 2: out out of my house when yo body, I piped
15:26
Speaker 2: me out.
15:26
Speaker 1: Okay, cool. So George dropped you off at around eight
15:30
Speaker 1: thirty and you spent the rest of the evening at
15:32
Speaker 1: home with Johanna and your son. But by the next
15:35
Speaker 1: day there was already a rumor going around that it
15:38
Speaker 1: was you that killed Costa Rica, as you found out
15:41
Speaker 1: from your friend Manolo when you went to Gallon's bar
15:44
Speaker 1: the next day.
15:45
Speaker 2: Manolo and some Odo people wasch outside the bottom. When
15:49
Speaker 2: Manolo see me, Manolo approaching me, you know how, he said, hey, waking,
15:54
Speaker 2: how you doing? My friend? You know ween brace and
15:56
Speaker 2: he said, man why you don't leave the CD? And
15:58
Speaker 2: I look at here. I say, leady, CD, what are
16:01
Speaker 2: you talking about? Manolo? He said, Main CALITOQ last night?
16:05
Speaker 2: You know, I'm the rue noise that you beat it.
16:08
Speaker 2: And I say, hey, A stop playing like tod mate,
16:11
Speaker 2: do you show? What are you talking about? He said? Yeah.
16:13
Speaker 2: So when he told me now the Frost team that
16:16
Speaker 2: is coming, you know, in my mind, I just say, oh,
16:19
Speaker 2: Main's something wrong here, and I just started to be afraid.
16:23
Speaker 1: And it came out later that Condido DZ was the
16:26
Speaker 1: likely instigator of that rumor. But however it got started.
16:29
Speaker 1: The two homicide detectives work in the case, Art Gearns
16:33
Speaker 1: and James Crowley ran with that rumor.
16:36
Speaker 3: So Joaquin's name comes up really fast in the investigation,
16:39
Speaker 3: and from as soon as they get his name, he
16:42
Speaker 3: is the only person they ever look into, and so
16:46
Speaker 3: essentially what you can see in the police reports is
16:48
Speaker 3: the two homicide inspectors who have Joaquin as their one
16:52
Speaker 3: and only suspect, start showing his picture to the two eyewitnesses,
16:56
Speaker 3: neither of whom identify him. They ask her, well, who
16:59
Speaker 3: looks most like the shooter, and she says, well, she
17:03
Speaker 3: points to Jaquin's photo and says he looks most like
17:05
Speaker 3: the shooter, but she doesn't say it's him, and the
17:08
Speaker 3: guy in the car says he doesn't pick anybody out,
17:10
Speaker 3: but they still keep their focus entirely on Joaquin.
17:13
Speaker 1: But Joaquin didn't even match the descriptions that the two
17:16
Speaker 1: witnesses gave right, No.
17:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the police did get descriptions from the eyewitnesses
17:21
Speaker 3: of the shooter and the things they describe because they
17:24
Speaker 3: both sort of say they see him from a distance,
17:26
Speaker 3: kind of the silhouette. They say he's got an afro,
17:29
Speaker 3: and that he's wearing this long trench coat. And we
17:32
Speaker 3: know from independent witnesses, including the guy Joaquin got in
17:35
Speaker 3: a fight with, who you know, didn't like him and
17:37
Speaker 3: had no reason to lie for him, that Joaquin's hair
17:40
Speaker 3: is in a long Jerry curl, not in an afro,
17:42
Speaker 3: and he's wearing this short, short leather jacket and not
17:45
Speaker 3: a long trench coat. And in fact, no one had
17:48
Speaker 3: ever seen Joaquin ever in a trench coat, and he
17:51
Speaker 3: didn't even own a trench coat.
17:53
Speaker 2: You know, thank God that I just stop at the
17:55
Speaker 2: Gottam bottle because you'll see everybody see me how the race.
18:01
Speaker 2: Everybody the people they said by they DeFi they've remained
18:05
Speaker 2: by how I watched the race. They've remainbed that I
18:07
Speaker 2: got a Jerry craile.
18:09
Speaker 3: I mean, even when they search the house, they're never
18:11
Speaker 3: able to find anything to connect Joaquin, and and so
18:15
Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't match. He doesn't match the descriptions,
18:18
Speaker 3: and he's got an alibi. His his girlfriend and their
18:21
Speaker 3: roommate tell the police from the very beginning that he's
18:24
Speaker 3: home that night by eight thirty.
18:26
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, Garance and Crowley stay focused on Joaquin as a suspect.
18:31
Speaker 1: And so at that point, Joaquin, you went to the
18:34
Speaker 1: police station on your own, correct.
18:36
Speaker 2: I cannot take a no mom maent. I cannot take
18:38
Speaker 2: a no more you watch some more roomo that I said, Man,
18:40
Speaker 2: I have to go to to with the homo side.
18:42
Speaker 2: I have to go talk to with the homo side. Bolutalitly.
18:46
Speaker 2: I go with my loyo to speak to the homo side.
18:49
Speaker 3: About two and a half weeks after the shooting, and
18:53
Speaker 3: he tells them that he was with George Ferrella in
18:55
Speaker 3: the white Monte Carlo, and he tells them how to
18:58
Speaker 3: find George, says, I, you know, I dated it his mother,
19:00
Speaker 3: Nellie Hernandez. They live at this address. Here's what he
19:04
Speaker 3: looks like. Here's the car he drives, I mean, basically
19:06
Speaker 3: everything they need. And they pull in George Verilla and
19:11
Speaker 3: George is initially saying, well, I can tell you what
19:13
Speaker 3: happened up until the time Joaquin and I split up,
19:15
Speaker 3: and then he says he went home after and he says, well,
19:17
Speaker 3: I probably I probably went somewhere after though, and they
19:20
Speaker 3: never ask him where did you go? Instead, what they
19:23
Speaker 3: say is, we know Joaquin was the shooter. You're going
19:26
Speaker 3: to go down for this murder. He's you know, George
19:28
Speaker 3: is eighteen. They tell him, you're going to go down
19:30
Speaker 3: for this murder unless you stop lying and covering up
19:33
Speaker 3: for Joaquin. They essentially tell him like, he's just got
19:36
Speaker 3: to say that Joaquin is the guy in the car
19:38
Speaker 3: with him at the time of the shooting, and that
19:40
Speaker 3: Joaquin is the shooter. And George Verilla literally says, Okay,
19:44
Speaker 3: whatever you said, and then he repeats the story that
19:48
Speaker 3: they have now fed to him, and that's it.
19:52
Speaker 1: So I guess subsequently later you end up getting arrested. Joaquin, Yes,
19:57
Speaker 1: and you end up getting arrested based on a confession
20:00
Speaker 1: from George.
20:01
Speaker 3: Or at least from George saying exactly what the police
20:04
Speaker 3: told them to say.
20:05
Speaker 1: Okay, and so he was he fabricated her from the
20:08
Speaker 1: officers Garn's and Crowley.
20:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, they tell him he's got to say
20:12
Speaker 3: it's Joaquin. That's like. Then they keep going back to
20:14
Speaker 3: the eyewitnesses. Basically, the witnesses make positive ideas only after
20:18
Speaker 3: they're repeatedly shown Joaquin and for one of them. She
20:21
Speaker 3: doesn't even make a first positive Ida until the preliminary
20:24
Speaker 3: hearing when he's literally sitting in a red jumpsuit at
20:26
Speaker 3: the defense table, and then she's like, oh, I'm sure
20:29
Speaker 3: that's the guy. And she says it's based on his
20:32
Speaker 3: attitude that she can see is how she's identifying. I mean,
20:36
Speaker 3: there's a lot of racism all through this trial, Like
20:39
Speaker 3: she even says, I think they were speaking African.
20:42
Speaker 1: So on April nineteen, nineteen ninety, Joaquin, you were arrested
20:47
Speaker 1: in charged with first degree murder, bro what was going
20:50
Speaker 1: through your head? I mean, did you even think this
20:53
Speaker 1: shit was real?
20:54
Speaker 2: Do you know what? Let me tell you these whoop
20:58
Speaker 2: not even when I washed my try you, I really
21:01
Speaker 2: believe that everything worth real. I was thinking that I
21:04
Speaker 2: wasn't a can't the camera show looking all these people
21:08
Speaker 2: coming and pointed me with a finger, Yeah, that the
21:12
Speaker 2: main And in my mind I said main, I know,
21:16
Speaker 2: I know the camera is going come out and they
21:18
Speaker 2: go and say a smile you in camera, you know,
21:23
Speaker 2: because that was a famite show at the time. I
21:25
Speaker 2: you to watch that show tomorrow, you know, and I
21:30
Speaker 2: and I say, you know what I mean, what happened
21:33
Speaker 2: to me. I cannot believe it. You you cannot, being innocing,
21:38
Speaker 2: believe that what is happening to you is real. You cannot,
21:45
Speaker 2: you know, and that's what happened to me. And you know,
21:48
Speaker 2: to respond to your question, no, you know, I steel,
21:52
Speaker 2: don't get it, I steal. You don't even get it.
21:55
Speaker 2: Main you're being charged with frost the good morning. I
22:01
Speaker 2: just deal with them getting so.
22:03
Speaker 3: George had actually kind of disappeared, George Urella, he'd not
22:06
Speaker 3: shown up for the prelim, he was missing leading up
22:10
Speaker 3: to the trial. I honestly believe Joaquin's attorney just didn't
22:13
Speaker 3: think he was even going to have to deal with George.
22:16
Speaker 3: It was just going to be this eyewitness I D case.
22:19
Speaker 3: And so he did, I think, a fairly good job,
22:22
Speaker 3: you know, showing all these discrepancies between the descriptions and
22:25
Speaker 3: what Joaquin actually looked like their own inconsistent statements and
22:30
Speaker 3: kind of the evolution of their ideas. He did a
22:33
Speaker 3: nice job of showing that George Ofrella's timeline didn't make
22:36
Speaker 3: any sense, that there was this like big gap in
22:38
Speaker 3: between the way he says what they did that night
22:41
Speaker 3: and how he drove Joaquin home his timelines that lines
22:44
Speaker 3: up with joaquines that Joaquin is home long before the
22:47
Speaker 3: murder happens. But what he missed, what he didn't manage
22:51
Speaker 3: to do, And one of the things I really respect
22:54
Speaker 3: about him is that he actually gave us a declaration
22:56
Speaker 3: saying he was ineffective because he didn't present to the jury.
22:59
Speaker 3: The jury never heard that Joaquin's name came from the
23:03
Speaker 3: homicide inspectors first, and that they told Rilla essentially that
23:06
Speaker 3: he had to identify Joaquin, So the jury just never
23:09
Speaker 3: heard that. What they heard instead was this guy who
23:11
Speaker 3: knows Joaquin, who'd grown up with him around is saying
23:15
Speaker 3: he's the guy who was with me in my car
23:17
Speaker 3: and who got out and shot him. And then he
23:19
Speaker 3: hears that corroborated by these two independent eyewitnesses, and Joaquin's
23:25
Speaker 3: attorney presented witnesses who describe what Joaquin looked like that night,
23:29
Speaker 3: how he had Jerry Curl in the short jacket, But
23:32
Speaker 3: he never presented the alibi witnesses. So they also didn't
23:35
Speaker 3: hear that Joaquin was at home with his one month
23:38
Speaker 3: old son, and that they had a good reason to
23:40
Speaker 3: remember that night because they were going to celebrate the
23:42
Speaker 3: one month anniversary of his birth the next day. So
23:46
Speaker 3: you know, they knew that George Verrella was incentivized, they
23:49
Speaker 3: knew he got immunity, they knew he was in and
23:51
Speaker 3: out of trouble. So it wasn't a super strong case
23:54
Speaker 3: even with what they heard. But what they never heard
23:56
Speaker 3: was anything else about someone else actually did it, or
24:00
Speaker 3: that Joaquin had this really credible alibi, and so they
24:03
Speaker 3: end up convicting him.
24:09
Speaker 2: It don't matter if I'm trying to explain to you
24:11
Speaker 2: a thousand times, I cannot even feeling close to really
24:20
Speaker 2: really tell you how I feel when they come out
24:25
Speaker 2: with a guilty verity. You know, everything inside me stopped, everything,
24:33
Speaker 2: I stop reading, my heart stop. It is a feeling
24:39
Speaker 2: that that you can never you can never explain how
24:48
Speaker 2: it is that they find you guilty, especial find me
24:55
Speaker 2: guilty or the moory of my bed framing that's all
25:01
Speaker 2: I really killed me? How can I be doing time
25:04
Speaker 2: for the mony or my beayfriend made somebody that I
25:08
Speaker 2: love even to today. I ended almost opened Pelican Bay
25:33
Speaker 2: presum in what the more taught prisum in the California
25:36
Speaker 2: system at the time. I see people when they told
25:41
Speaker 2: these people you go into Pelican Bay. I see grown
25:44
Speaker 2: Maine crumbled in the floor and crying when I was
25:48
Speaker 2: in some queen, you know. And I ask the people
25:52
Speaker 2: and I say, hey, Main, why he crying? I said, man,
25:55
Speaker 2: you don't know where we're going. He said, we're going
25:57
Speaker 2: to Pelican be And I said what aboudy? I said, Cuba,
26:02
Speaker 2: let me tell you mane, it is no joke. He said,
26:06
Speaker 2: may wait until you get there. You know it was true.
26:12
Speaker 2: You know when I gotta tell your Maine every time
26:15
Speaker 2: that you heal alund sound in that prison, it was
26:21
Speaker 2: not a first alarm. It was somebody got killed, you know.
26:28
Speaker 2: And I said, man, how did I ain't in there? Bo?
26:32
Speaker 2: My mind is still do not stopping play some trick
26:36
Speaker 2: on me? I remember, you know. I who to wag
26:39
Speaker 2: into my said go to sleep. And I had to
26:42
Speaker 2: cover my head with the Blankee real tie and I
26:47
Speaker 2: had to close my eyes royal tie, and I hold
26:50
Speaker 2: to say, Main, when I open my eyes now, when
26:53
Speaker 2: I open my eyes, now, I know this is a three.
26:57
Speaker 2: This is a three. I go and being home, we
27:00
Speaker 2: might sign with my baby's mama. This is a three, man,
27:04
Speaker 2: This is a three. I went, I got Cobway might
27:08
Speaker 2: sell I need the sall. You know, I say, wow, man,
27:14
Speaker 2: this is real mm hm.
27:20
Speaker 1: So I gotta ask you, man, like, how did you
27:22
Speaker 1: hold on to hope so much for all those years?
27:25
Speaker 1: Because I always always say, you know, for a person
27:27
Speaker 1: that committed crime, it's hard, you know, to deal with
27:30
Speaker 1: the time, But for an innocent person sitting there, it's
27:33
Speaker 1: a whole different level because you're going through everything, whether
27:37
Speaker 1: it's the violence in the prison, the abuse from the cops,
27:41
Speaker 1: whatever it is, the CEOs, whatever it is. So how
27:44
Speaker 1: did you hold on the hope that you would get out?
27:48
Speaker 2: You know why? In the beginning I watched completely ain't
27:53
Speaker 2: good with God? Everything that I got in my mayis
27:58
Speaker 2: how did I go and prove that I don't do
27:59
Speaker 2: the what I can do? You know? And the good
28:04
Speaker 2: thing about it is and thank God, you know, to
28:07
Speaker 2: all the emails, you know, in every prison that I be, brother,
28:12
Speaker 2: in every priston that i'd be, every email, believe on me,
28:20
Speaker 2: they can see through into my heart. They can see
28:23
Speaker 2: through into the type of man that I was. You know,
28:28
Speaker 2: this call it homies homeboy. They asking me working and
28:34
Speaker 2: why are you here for? Man? And I say, man, brother,
28:39
Speaker 2: they give me totally one year to life or a
28:41
Speaker 2: model that I not come make. I'm taking God. They say, hey, man,
28:45
Speaker 2: you know what, man, I believe you? What can I
28:48
Speaker 2: believe you? And I say thank you man. And I
28:52
Speaker 2: received so much respect. I receive the respect that the
28:57
Speaker 2: systems don't give it to me. I got any all
29:00
Speaker 2: these em the respect that deceased denight to me. I
29:05
Speaker 2: got in it from all these people.
29:07
Speaker 1: And page can you can you walk us through the
29:10
Speaker 1: post conviction litigation? I mean didn't Evidently nothing worked for him.
29:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you got to give Joaquin credit, like
29:18
Speaker 3: he litigated his case to the nines, Like he got
29:24
Speaker 3: himself into federal court. I know he had helped from
29:26
Speaker 3: jail house lawyers. I have a lot of respect for
29:28
Speaker 3: jailhouth lawyers. And I mean, unfortunately the courts just refused
29:32
Speaker 3: to look at it and refuse to listen. But what
29:35
Speaker 3: eventually happened was Joaquin had earned the respect not only
29:39
Speaker 3: of other incarcerated folks, but also some of the free staff.
29:42
Speaker 3: And we were contacted by this guy Ray Leonardini, who
29:46
Speaker 3: ran a meditation circle that Joaquin was a part of,
29:49
Speaker 3: and also Ellen egger Is a pro bono attorney who
29:53
Speaker 3: have partnered with in a few cases, was helping another
29:56
Speaker 3: guy with parole who told her, you have to meet Joaquin,
29:59
Speaker 3: like he's actually innocent and you need to help them.
30:02
Speaker 3: And so Ellen went and met Joaquin. He told her everything.
30:06
Speaker 3: She like everybody, found him very compelling and believable, and
30:11
Speaker 3: so she The first thing asked her to do was
30:13
Speaker 3: go talk to George Verilla's sister, Denise Courchier, and Alan
30:16
Speaker 3: did that and Denise told her, my brother told me
30:20
Speaker 3: that Joaquin is innocent, that it was another Cuban man,
30:24
Speaker 3: and that the police really wanted Joaquin, and George was
30:27
Speaker 3: scared of them, and so he went along with what
30:30
Speaker 3: they wanted. But what really turned the case around was
30:33
Speaker 3: when Roberto Sacoro got out of prison. He went to
30:36
Speaker 3: Cuba and he tracked down Joaquin's family and told them
30:40
Speaker 3: that he personally knew that Joaquin was innocent because he
30:43
Speaker 3: had actually seen the whole thing from his motel room.
30:46
Speaker 1: And listeners, remember, Roberto Cicoro was another friend of Joaquin's.
30:51
Speaker 1: The day before all of this happened, Roberto had killed
30:54
Speaker 1: this other guy named Ruben Alfonso, and he was hiding
30:57
Speaker 1: out at the Bay Bridge Motel, wading on Felix to
31:00
Speaker 1: bring up some clothes when he heard Felix southside argon
31:03
Speaker 1: with Candido Diaz.
31:04
Speaker 3: They had been fighting over a gun and not paying
31:08
Speaker 3: for the gun, and so he recognized their voices and
31:10
Speaker 3: they start coming in and out of his view, and
31:12
Speaker 3: you know, he hears the gunshot and he runs out
31:14
Speaker 3: and he sees Candido get into the white Monte Carlo
31:18
Speaker 3: and drive away, and he basically broke down and apologized
31:22
Speaker 3: to Joaquin's family and explained that while he was in
31:26
Speaker 3: he'd been a shot caller initially, and so he felt like,
31:30
Speaker 3: you know, in addition to the normal amount of trouble
31:32
Speaker 3: you can get in in prison for stitching, that he,
31:34
Speaker 3: especially as someone who'd sort of enforced those rules, would
31:37
Speaker 3: be even more in danger. And for a long time
31:40
Speaker 3: he'd hope to be able to get his own revenge,
31:42
Speaker 3: that at some point Candido would get locked up and
31:46
Speaker 3: he would be able to avenge Felix's death, and in
31:51
Speaker 3: some ways, fortunately that never happened, and instead he gets
31:54
Speaker 3: out and tells the truth, and that really broke open
31:57
Speaker 3: the case.
31:58
Speaker 1: And Ellen also tracked a couple of people that George
32:01
Speaker 1: Rilla had talked to and had told them Joaquin was innocent.
32:05
Speaker 1: One was Joaquin's sister, Denise, and the other was a
32:08
Speaker 1: woman named Kadi Dad Gonzales.
32:10
Speaker 3: She was friends with Nellie Hernandez, George's mother, and also
32:14
Speaker 3: knew Joaquin through Nelly and through the Cuban community. George
32:19
Speaker 3: tells her also, so it's very similar to what he
32:21
Speaker 3: said to Denise, that he knows Joaquin is innocent and
32:24
Speaker 3: didn't do this. And so we had these two statements
32:26
Speaker 3: from George Verilla to two different people saying that Joaquin
32:29
Speaker 3: was innocent and also saying that it was another Cuban man.
32:32
Speaker 3: And so Candy ro Diez is not only Cuban but
32:35
Speaker 3: also matches the original description. He was always had his
32:38
Speaker 3: hair in an afro, He was known to wear long
32:41
Speaker 3: trench coats. And it turns out he'd had this, you know,
32:44
Speaker 3: ongoing and escalating feud with Felix Pasta Rica right before
32:48
Speaker 3: the murder, and it all started over the weapon that
32:51
Speaker 3: may actually have been used, A forty four, which was
32:53
Speaker 3: actually the weapon they said was used to kill Felix
32:56
Speaker 3: Pasta Rica. So Ellen had done most of the investigation
33:00
Speaker 3: by the time she came to me. And it was
33:01
Speaker 3: only the Roberto piece that came afterwards, but we really
33:04
Speaker 3: felt like that pushed it over the top. And then
33:08
Speaker 3: the Innocence Commission also got an eyewitness I D expert
33:10
Speaker 3: to look at the eyewitnesses and just really explain and
33:15
Speaker 3: under the social science that we now know even more.
33:18
Speaker 3: While all of those, all the reasons eyewitness identifications are unreliable,
33:22
Speaker 3: but we're especially so in this case.
33:24
Speaker 1: Well not just unreliable. I believe one of the witnesses,
33:27
Speaker 1: Kathleen Gavada, had another reason to identify Joaquin.
33:31
Speaker 2: You know, the same woman I say from the BORGINI
33:34
Speaker 2: now that I hold the pa SHOLDI nimin, I only
33:37
Speaker 2: atey poucing and later you know, to give you diffending
33:42
Speaker 2: change and watch you see, well she gotla.
33:46
Speaker 1: So, Paige, after all this new information you put in
33:49
Speaker 1: front of them, did the courts quickly agree that Joaquin
33:53
Speaker 1: was innocent?
33:54
Speaker 3: I mean we expected them to, especially because the DA's
33:57
Speaker 3: office was on.
33:58
Speaker 1: Board, and that was District Ernie chess A Bodin, who
34:01
Speaker 1: was repeatedly under fire from the police union and adversaries.
34:05
Speaker 1: There were I think like two recall elections, so his
34:08
Speaker 1: political foot and was never secure, and he was the
34:11
Speaker 1: one that was making the recommendation based on the Innocence
34:14
Speaker 1: Commission findings.
34:15
Speaker 3: They had this separate Innocence Commission, right, that was supposed
34:18
Speaker 3: to be this independent body. It had DA's public defenders, experts,
34:22
Speaker 3: law professors, you know, like this whole commission of different
34:25
Speaker 3: stakeholders who all agreed Joaquin is fully innocent. And in
34:28
Speaker 3: my experience, usually when that happens, the courts are pretty
34:32
Speaker 3: willing to go along pretty quickly, right. But unfortunately we
34:35
Speaker 3: had the exact opposite experience here, and I can only
34:38
Speaker 3: imagine some of that was the politics going on in
34:41
Speaker 3: San Francisco. The court essentially just the first thing they
34:44
Speaker 3: did was ask us to do another round of briefing,
34:46
Speaker 3: and they invited the Attorney General's office, in which you
34:50
Speaker 3: know doesn't generally happen in superior court. But here's the
34:53
Speaker 3: court saying, you know, District Attorney, I don't trust what
34:55
Speaker 3: you have to say, and so Attorney General, I'm inviting
34:58
Speaker 3: you in to tell me something different. Fortunately, the AG's
35:02
Speaker 3: office also saw that this wasn't a case to oppose.
35:04
Speaker 3: Everything pointed to Jacquin's innocence. There's no reliable evidence of
35:07
Speaker 3: guilt anywhere. But even after you know, a second round
35:11
Speaker 3: of briefing in the AG's office, refusing to come in,
35:15
Speaker 3: they still had us have an evident you're hearing. And
35:17
Speaker 3: so here we are both sides arguing for the same thing.
35:20
Speaker 3: So we're both presenting opening statements on Joaquin being innocent,
35:24
Speaker 3: and then we're both doing closing arguments about how he's
35:27
Speaker 3: entitled to relief and how we all believe he's innocent
35:29
Speaker 3: and the judge should reverse his conviction. Luckily, by then
35:32
Speaker 3: we'd been switched to a different judge, was a really good,
35:35
Speaker 3: experienced judge and just saw all the problems with the case.
35:39
Speaker 3: And then finally, on April eighteenth, the court reversed Joaquin's
35:43
Speaker 3: conviction and the district attorneys again announced he was innocent.
35:48
Speaker 3: They dismissed all of the charges.
35:52
Speaker 2: Man, I almost fail to be fluw yes, to go
35:57
Speaker 2: out to the freedom that I want, denying for almost
36:03
Speaker 2: thirty two yeah, and I don't even know how to
36:05
Speaker 2: make it all the way to the door, you know,
36:08
Speaker 2: And I keep walking. I'm walking, imagin you know, when
36:12
Speaker 2: when they open the door to me and I see
36:15
Speaker 2: you know, I see pay ailing my son and my
36:20
Speaker 2: baby's mama. I see everybody. Man, it was too much
36:24
Speaker 2: for me. I say, my god, it was a day unbelievable.
36:31
Speaker 2: This type of feeling. You have to really go through
36:35
Speaker 2: that for you can really have the thing what I'm
36:38
Speaker 2: talking about. It is unbelievable. It is unbelievable.
36:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you on that. And of course we're
36:46
Speaker 1: all super grateful to the Northern California Innocent Project and
36:50
Speaker 1: the fantastic work that they do because it's through them
36:54
Speaker 1: that people like Joaquin can you know, have a chance
36:57
Speaker 1: to get back to this free world. So if anyone
37:00
Speaker 1: want to show the Northern California Innocent Projects some love,
37:03
Speaker 1: we'll have the link in the bios so you can
37:06
Speaker 1: do that. So we've got to the point of the
37:10
Speaker 1: show where we do this thing called closing arguments. And
37:13
Speaker 1: first I want to thank you all for being here,
37:15
Speaker 1: and I also want to ask y'all to share your
37:18
Speaker 1: final thoughts for the listeners, you know, anything that you
37:21
Speaker 1: want to say, any takeaway you may have, and page
37:26
Speaker 1: I want to first start with you and then we
37:29
Speaker 1: can close with Joaquin.
37:32
Speaker 3: So the thing that I think we haven't done a
37:35
Speaker 3: great job of yet, especially in San Francisco is like,
37:37
Speaker 3: we know, there was this era in which they were
37:40
Speaker 3: treating especially young black men terribly and saw themselves as
37:44
Speaker 3: like cleaning up the streets by somehow getting people involved
37:48
Speaker 3: in homicides and throwing them away for life. And there
37:51
Speaker 3: are six people who've been exonerated out of San Francisco,
37:53
Speaker 3: all of them are black men, and five of them
37:56
Speaker 3: are from this nineteen ninety era. They all have incredible story.
38:00
Speaker 3: You should look into all of them. Joaquin, Maurice Caldwell,
38:04
Speaker 3: Antoine Goff, John Tennyson, and Kara mad Conley, who I
38:07
Speaker 3: know you've already interviewed, But what we haven't done is
38:10
Speaker 3: look back at what else went wrong there. So it
38:12
Speaker 3: shouldn't be luck of the draw, right whose cases get
38:14
Speaker 3: looked at and who gets picked up? And so Headwoaquin
38:18
Speaker 3: not you know, convinced other incarcerated folks that he was
38:21
Speaker 3: innocent and then one of them meeting Ellen, like you know,
38:24
Speaker 3: this luck of the draw thing. It's not okay for
38:27
Speaker 3: justice to be that arbitrary with what little justice exists
38:30
Speaker 3: in our system. And so my hope and listeners, I'd
38:35
Speaker 3: love for you to encourage this is that we actually
38:37
Speaker 3: look back there's four homicide investigators who were involved in
38:41
Speaker 3: all of these cases. We could look at their cases,
38:43
Speaker 3: We could look at all cases from this era. You know,
38:46
Speaker 3: cdcr's budget for this year is over fourteen billion dollars.
38:50
Speaker 3: Just imagine what would happen if we just spent a
38:52
Speaker 3: tiny fraction of that on actually looking for where things
38:56
Speaker 3: went wrong, starting with the places we already know things
38:59
Speaker 3: went Everybody should have a chance to prove themselves. No
39:03
Speaker 3: one's as bad as the worst thing they've ever done.
39:05
Speaker 3: And you know, these guys who have done all this
39:08
Speaker 3: time like you are Land, like Yuki, and who have
39:10
Speaker 3: come out and shown like I mean, one of the
39:13
Speaker 3: things I just love also about what you've been doing
39:15
Speaker 3: is just highlighting the humanity of people right whether they're
39:18
Speaker 3: incarcerated or not. We are all have this huge amount
39:22
Speaker 3: to offer and give, and I just would love for
39:25
Speaker 3: us to stop leaving so many people behind and really
39:28
Speaker 3: start focusing on using our resources in better ways.
39:33
Speaker 2: What I want to say, you know, to all be listening.
39:36
Speaker 2: I want to lay everybody know that what happened to
39:39
Speaker 2: me is continually happy right now, and the only way
39:45
Speaker 2: it can be at top we all have to come
39:47
Speaker 2: out together and do something about it. I always say,
39:52
Speaker 2: if we're capable to go to the moon, we have
39:57
Speaker 2: to be capable to prevent the anal same peace go
40:00
Speaker 2: to prison. Simple like that. How can you go to
40:03
Speaker 2: the moon but you cannot premain one person to go
40:07
Speaker 2: to prison. It domain saying I know right now, at
40:11
Speaker 2: this moment, in some part of the country in a
40:14
Speaker 2: court house, somebody's going to prison right now, being innocing.
40:20
Speaker 2: It is no doubt in my mind. And he going
40:22
Speaker 2: through for the same thing that I go through when
40:26
Speaker 2: I was in that position. I know we can stop it.
40:30
Speaker 2: I know we can do so anything about it because
40:33
Speaker 2: I know Number one is we need to make the
40:36
Speaker 2: dis Ratney accountable for any wrong doing that they do.
40:44
Speaker 2: And I said the every dish Ratney. No, we got
40:47
Speaker 2: some really good dist rattorney that they do their job,
40:51
Speaker 2: they go by the law and they honest the people,
40:55
Speaker 2: how walking people. But we got some other one that
40:58
Speaker 2: they don't care, they don't kate. They want to wing
41:03
Speaker 2: our CAGs O this fasic or the egocent people. We
41:08
Speaker 2: have to stop. Doc.
41:14
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host
41:18
Speaker 1: Erline Woods. I like to thank executive producers Jason Flumm
41:22
Speaker 1: and Kevin Waters for inviting me to be here. Good
41:25
Speaker 1: Looking Special thanks to our wonderful production team Connor Hall,
41:30
Speaker 1: Annie Chelsea, Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburn. The music in
41:34
Speaker 1: this production comes from three time Oscar numberee Jay Raff.
41:38
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
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Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
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Speaker 1: Rome Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all
41:50
Speaker 1: three platforms. You can find me online at Erline Woods,
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Speaker 1: and you can find my podcast ear Hustle wherever you
41:57
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. Wrongful Conviction is a productiontion a Blober
42:00
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one