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S1E2 - Atheist to Biblical Business: Adam Weisner's Story · Biblical Business Podcast

• speaker-0: What was it like being on Oprah? speaker-1: That is like definitely not where I saw that question go. speaker-0: totally. Yeah. speaker-1: it was fascinating. It was very odd for a kid who'd grown up with very little to be on the Oprah Winfrey show. And I felt super cringy. And yet it made it happen. I did feel like super rich because we got to fly on a plane. We got picked up in a limousine at the airport with some guy holding my name on a sign. Me and my mom went. They gave us, you know, three hundred dollar vouchers to to spend at the Omni Suite hotels. it was it was a pretty fascinating experience. and definitely one that a kid who is, I don't even know how old I was, I must have been fourteen, something like that. it was it was a once in a lifetime experience. speaker-0: 'Cause at the time it was that was a Kirk Russell lookalike comp like the celebrity lookalike competition that you won in your teenage years of acting, is that right? speaker-1: So there was no competition. Okay. So I had started doing acting, you know, just before that. I had an agent, the Mary Grady agency. So my mom was driving me down to North Hollywood and West Hollywood. I was going to auditions every day and reading line, doing line readings, and I really didn't like it. I got a commercial. I did an airwalk commercial. I was the the principal in airwalk shoes, which is old school, old school shoes, shot in Burbank at an old school. And then I got a call that they Basically looked at your headshot and then said, Hey, this kid looks like, you know, a young Kurt Russell. And Oprah's gonna do this feature on a bunch of people who look like a bunch of different celebrities. So there was a girl who looked like Jodie Foster, there was a kid who looked like Brad Pitt, there was a girl who looked like Oprah. there was a lot of kind of young kids basically called in to say, hey, they they look like somebody. So it had nothing to do with any level of talent, skill, or acting acumen. It was just I showed up. speaker-0: But man, driving around LA going to all these different auditions, I'm sure, especially at fourteen, speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: that there's also all sorts of lessons that you could learn at the same time. A lot of hard work, a lot of if not if not hard work, just time. Just time consuming of I gotta learn these sides. I got to my mom's gotta drive me out to these auditions. What were some of the lessons that you took away from a season that you might not necessarily have? enjoyed from a I want to be doing this, but that you're still learning and being cultivated at that time. speaker-1: You know, I think getting your reps in was a big lesson. And then I think you really realize just how competitive the world is when you get into certain spaces. You know, I would go into these rooms to read for a commercial, for a Pepsi commercial or for whatever. And you just you learn I learned two things, really, two really big things, which was one. Yes, absolutely, reps matter. It's a contact sport. You've got to get to as many auditions as possible. And yes, you, you know, if you're good, you're good. But also, stuff's not that complicated. The way I got the airwalk commercial is sure I I I did something, you know, it was like a basic reading, but they knew when I walked in the door that I was the one. They just knew. Because they, right, your casting director, they have something in their mind and they know. So what I learned from that was one, you've got to get your reps in. But two, in this contact sport, the more reps you get in, the more likely it is that somebody somewhere that fits with what it is that you're doing is gonna find you. And so that lesson applied all the way through into business, into you know, even now what you do with social media and reaching people, it's a contact sport. And how are they going to know unless somebody shares? speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Was it was it your idea or your mom's idea to Mom? speaker-1: idea's idea. I quit as soon as I could. I actually was the last it was me and one other kid for a pe a national Pepsi commercial and and they told my mom that like we couldn't leave town, you know, for the week because we were gonna get, you know, this potential call. And I I didn't end up getting it. And I just remember I really wanted to play hockey. You know, I loved playing roller hockey in Southern California. And so I just told her like I don't want to go to these auditions anymore. I don't want to act. I don't like this. I don't enjoy it. And the agency was, you know, they were pretty disappointed at the time because apparently, I don't know. Apparently to get, you know, a commercial and to get a a couple of things within just a few months of doing it was was good. But I really just I couldn't do it. So yeah, I quit quit that really fast. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. All in on roller hockey at the time. speaker-1: That was it, man. All in just on trying to be a kid, you know, and not not getting robbed of your of your childhood, where you're just like in a car all day reading lines, milk, I like milk, and just saying that fifteen times twelve different ways. speaker-0: Yeah. Dude, that is so the industry. W how how has that experienced influenced how you approach parenting? speaker-1: I think that as a parent For Jen and I, we just want our kids to try a bunch of things. And I think the more things you try, the more likely you are to find something that clicks with you. You know, try every sport, try a bunch of instruments, try different things, at least for a period of time, and see what, you know, sort of aligns with how God has uniquely made you. So I think one, there's a discipline element, but you know. I want for my kids to find the things that get them excited. And so to do that, you just give them as many opportunities as possible. So that's what we see a lot of our role as parents is like just give them a bunch of opportunities to try a bunch of different things and get diversity of experience and see what clicks. speaker-0: How do you get the diversity of experience without having your quid kids quit something? Yeah. Because something gets boring. speaker-1: You just set some basic guidelines and timelines around it. So, like we'll say, for example, hey, you're gonna play this sport. You don't get to quit mid-season. You have to complete the season. So you're going to complete whatever that thing is. Or if you're gonna start playing an instrument, you're going to complete the year of that instrument. And then you can decide after that. Essentially, you force them into true first principles. You have to try it all the way through and get through the hard stuff to see if you like it. And then if they don't, you know, I'm not we're not trying to live vicariously through our children. a lot of it isn't about trying to like we were Jen and I were just talking this morning. We were at the kids like skill they're doing a skills practice this morning. And it's like if they don't go play soccer pro, that that doesn't mean that they didn't get a bunch of amazing lessons about what it takes when you're there, you know, early morning on a Friday and you're getting touches in and you're running through these drills and you're listening. You're learning how to be coached. You're learning how to push your body. You're learning the distance. There's lots there that is going to serve them well over their lifetime. So really the the balance, I think, for us is just setting the expectation up front of what the commitment is that you're going to be required to do at least this. And then, you know, great coaches, just like in business, great coaches get you to a place where you're uncomfortable. Then they push you through the pain of that. Temporary discomfort and then to to get you to realize that you can do so much more than you ever could imagine. Like Zeke, you know, he's he's been we've been telling him to just do like juggles each day, like get his juggling going on the ball. Soccer ball, you know, juggling with his foot. And he's up to like, I don't know, 41 right now. And when he started, it was like a big deal. He felt like he couldn't do more than five. But he's just been doing it every day. So that push like, hey, We want you to be committed during the season to go out there every day and to hit your max juggles. So then you go out there and he's doing it every day. But I also sometimes go out there and do it with him. So like when he hit 19, I'm like, I I wonder if I could try to hit 20 to just to have fun with him and push him a little bit. But I'm not telling him get better. I'm in there with him doing it. And so that applies to business. It applies to there's so many things from a leadership perspective where you can apply that. But parenting is just a great opportunity to learn. To learn a lot about yourself and leadership. speaker-0: remind me how old your three kids are. speaker-1: sixteen, fourteen, and twelve soon to be Zeke will be thirteen next month. speaker-0: So how would you compare your fourteen, sixteen year old self to where your kids are right now? speaker-1: my gosh. I I wouldn't. I wouldn't even attempt to. I mean, when I was fifteen I got my tongue pierced. So I don't think you know, I I I was I was running away from home when I was fifteen. I I and I had a job as a busboy. So no, I mean my kids our our kids are incredible humans. They're they're amazing, they're fun. They're funny, they're sarcastic, they love the Lord, they're creative, they're there's just I love being a dad. and I I think seeing them just live into the full version of who God's made them to be, that's what our desire is for them. So yeah, me at fourteen, I wouldn't it's not even something to look at. Yeah. speaker-0: How does one come to the logical conclusion that I should get my tongue pierced? speaker-1: Super easy. here's how that here's how this went. One, you know, I was always my older my oldest sister's 11 years older than me, and she was like punk rock. You know, she had some of that influence. Like I got kicked out of Christian preschool. That was the only Christian experience I had. Was my mom put me in a Christian preschool and I did a mohawk with you know, like because I wanted to copy my sister's friends and they kicked me out because of that, because I had a mohawk. So that was probably why my mom didn't like. adopt Christianity early on. Anyway. So, you know, I'm a little little bit of a rebel. Yeah. And my oldest sister is the one who actually took me to get my tongue pierced. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: And the way I convinced my mom to allow her to let me do that was I told her I was going to get a tattoo. speaker-0: But that was wow. speaker-1: And I was like, well, it's fine. I won't get it's like the whole idea, like you ask for two weeks of vacation so you can get one. So I just asked for a tattoo so that I could get my tongue pierced. And funny enough, this will all tie in. There's a lot of bows here. Do you know what the first thing I did after I got my tongue pierced was where we went and ate? Taco Bell. speaker-0: Of course. speaker-1: Of course. And I can I can vividly remember eating the taco and like feeling this my tongue swollen and like the taco inside of my mouth while I was eating it. So speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I and then I had that tongue piercing for like three when I met Jen. Yeah. I had I still had my tongue pierced and I had two earrings. I got my ears my ear pierced when I was in fifth grade and then I got my other ear pierced when I was like a freshman in high school. So I had two stud earrings, a tongue ring. Listen, man, my kids so yeah, my kids are not they think that they think that their dad is really foolish. When you were a kid. speaker-0: And so when did the first tattoo come into the picture? speaker-1: Eighteen years old, eighteenth birthday. speaker-0: Mm, yeah. so from the time that you got the first ear pierced to the tongue pierced, the second ear pierced, you're playing roller hockey at the time. And you also get into producing hip hop. speaker-1: That's true. speaker-0: And so who were some of the biggest influences for you to become a music producer? speaker-1: My stepdad. Yeah. So my stepdad came on the scene when I was about fifteen and he was he's a bit he's a big Chinese dude who had really long jet black hair and he was in a death metal band as the lead guitarist. Nice. speaker-0: Night. speaker-1: and was in a band they were signed, they were called Ambush. They were he lived he was in West Hollywood. So like when he came on the scene, he was really into you know, music, music production, guitar playing, had a ton of guitars. And he saw that I was this, you know, troubled kid, obviously, who need maybe needed some direction. And so he knew that I liked hip hop. So he showed me this program called Fruity Loops, which was a music sequencing program at the time. It's now called FL Studio. Nobody calls it Fruity Loops anymore, but it was like the OG s music sequencing. And and he showed me how to use that and how I could start making beats. on this sequencer and and that was it. I mean I was I would be in there for eight, nine hours a day just playing and learning. And so I just taught myself how to make music on FL Studio, started getting into forums on the website on different websites, talking to different producers all over, figuring out how to how to make beats. speaker-0: Yeah. And and at the time, who were some of the biggest influences that you had musically? speaker-1: Hip hop wise? Yeah. I mean, I've I was always, you know, Wu Tang Clan, KRS one, Tribe Called Quest, Snoop, Warren G, Dre, like essentially all of the West Coast artists, some of the smaller guys, and then a ton of East Coast, you know, of course, the the Tupac's and Biggies and I think hip hop for me was it was ingrained in me from a very, very early age. And again, because I didn't grow up Christian, it's not like I was, you know, listening to Sunday school Christian music. I was it was explicit lyrics speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: young age. I remember being on the elementary school playground and reciting lines from Snoop's first album because we were so blown away by by some of the bars. So yeah, that's how far back that goes for me. speaker-0: Man, that's epic. So you mentioned all of this was pre-gen. Gen comes into the picture. speaker-1: Eighteen? Yeah. Eighteen years old, about a month a month and a half after the Lord saved me. speaker-0: Mm. So so then I mean you've said before, quote, I like I was a staunch atheist until eighteen. So what happened in this transition? What happened in this era? speaker-1: My mom says she still remembers like being heartbroken when she said one day I just told like, I don't believe in God. And she said she remembers just being heartbroken. And she wasn't Christian, but you know, she was spiritual. She's she's a believer now, which is praise God, amazing. She she came to know Christ just a a year ago. so God's just so good. I was, yeah, I mean, the people who I was in high school with remember arguing with me. I remember the Christians and the the Jesus freaks that I would rip apart as as much as I could in high school. And really, I mean, God was just tilling the ground as I was going deep into studying quarks and string theory and quantum mechanics. I wanted to understand dark matter and I wanted to just really I was going very, very deep. As you know a little bit, I I go pretty deep on things. So I wanted to go really deep. And as I studied it, God gave me this kind of childlike revelation. that as you break down matter, it was like, okay, well, what's after that? Okay, there are atoms, okay, and then there's protons and neutrons. What's after that? Then what's after that? And then and then what's after that? And that there is no end because you can't get to the end of matter. Because what's after that? And so there was this realization that matter was infinite in, which was fascinating to me. Right. I mean, even when you think of the the makeup of matter, it's mostly empty space. And that's a weird thing to think about when we touch stuff, right? And then I I looked out into the sky and you start looking at the expanse of the universe. Well, that doesn't end either. Because what's after that? You start setting black holes. You start looking at these things and going, well, wait, now that's also infinite out. And so this this realization was that matter was infinite. And if matter was infinite, then something had to exist. It was reasonable that something had to exist outside of space and time. Because it can't just always be, right? Unless something else had always been. And that was like the beginning of me going, okay, well, then clearly there has to be a creator. Right? There's just it became very clear there must be a creator if matter is infinite. And then somebody invited me to a church service. randomly a a teen church service. And I went and I sat in the back by myself and I heard the gospel preached. And and I wept in my chair by myself. And the the Holy Spirit spoke to me and I said, All right, you know, Lord, I believe, you know, that you died the death that I deserve and I want to commit my life to you. And that was it right there that night. And yeah, and then I was at a house party So then from that point I stopped, you know, all the stuff drinking and smoking, all the stuff that I was doing. And and then I went to this huge house party in the middle of Fontana where there was like six kegs and a live band and a bunch of stuff, but I wasn't drinking. I was there with my buddies, who still were, but I was like, you know, hey, you know, straight edge. and then yeah, I saw this girl walk in through the fence. I can remember it. And I was like, Who is that? And my buddy was like, actually, what he said was, Asian persuasion. She's half Japanese. And he's like, dude, go talk to her. And I was like, absolutely not. She's way too beautiful. There's no chance I'm talking to her. And and then music's playing. I'm out on the dance floor again, new Christian. So the song Ludicrous, What's Your Fantasy, is actually playing. And She just happens to see this this white dude with, you know, earrings and a tongue ring who knows every word to all of these songs. and we end up dancing on that dance floor. We end up talking, and then I asked her for her number. I didn't really have anything to write on. but I found a dentist appointment card in my back pocket and somebody gave me a green marker. And so I turned over the dentist appointment card. I wrote my number and my pager number on one side, and I wrote her number on the other, and I ripped it in half. And And then I called her the next day, took her to a church service. And then that Wednesday we went mini golfing, took her there in my in my mom's Jeep with the top off, so we could barely talk on the way there on the freeway. and we've been together, we've been together ever since that night. And I still have my most prized physical possession is the framed version of of those dentist cars with both of our numbers on it in our in our room. No speaker-0: Dude, I have I had speaker-1: doubt you would. That was December 2nd of 2000. So it's twenty six years this December. speaker-0: Wow man, that's incredible. What what speaker-1: Are is this a still about biblical business? speaker-0: I think it's more well, I see it more as is you've been making a lot of short form content for the past year plus, and I that that story was never a story that you've been you've told in detail. So I wanted to to try to go deep in understanding that side of it. speaker-1: I love it. Yeah. speaker-0: What what was speaker-1: I'm only saying that 'cause I feel like, you know, I don't I don't wanna bore I don't wanna bore anybody with my you know stories about about me. I think it gets I trust I trust the process 'cause I'm like, you know, the I I get it. I I do, I really understand it. And to your point, the whole point of this is like how do we have conversations about real things that go deeper than just kind of the surface, like three ways to film it by yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, man. I I think too it's it's an opportunity to go instead of ten feet wide, one inch deep ten feet deep, one inch wide. Hundred per Yeah. What was it about physics that got you really thinking about God? speaker-1: Man, it's really difficult to look at creation and not consider a creator. You know, y y it's it's really difficult to if I walked outside and picked up a leaf to look at it and then even go down to the microscopic complexity of that, but the order, and not think about a creator. You know, it it is it would be unreasonable. And I'm a very pragmatic person, it would be unreasonable for me to to tell you. That this Yeti mug does not have a creator. Very di it's very difficult. and so I think creation is one of those awe inspiring things, and I've always been really inspired by the whole of creation because it's so beautifully asymmetric. speaker-0: Mm. Think about the quote of change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change. And Where were you in that season? Just turn fresh eighteen, learning physics, think considering what is this world we live in. How if I'm gonna start arguing with the Jesus freaks. Do you have to back yourself up? What what how how are you in this point to where you were open to this change? speaker-1: I it I could only explain it as a movement of God. He he was doing the work because Any argument you can think of for Christians, I've I've made it, you know. From the validity of the Bible to it being an emotional crutch for people who don't who aren't strong. I mean I could just i anything. And I'd never given it the same real shot that I'd given everything else from a depth perspective. And so I I believe that God allowed all of those things. And, you know, right? He works all things together for the good of those who love him and who are called according to his purpose, right? Romans 8:28, Jeremiah 29, 11, for I know the plans I have for you, plans for good. So The great mystery of how he orchestrates all of this is something that I'll never really understand. But I know that in that time he removed the scales from my eyes. And and then he used the very thing that I thought proved that he didn't exist to show me that he did. speaker-0: Mm. Which to you was that? Knowledge, intelligence, physics? What what was it? speaker-1: Yeah, it was that we can understand and we understand all of this better than anybody else does. And this logic of ours is actually what proves, you know, that God doesn't exist. That's why so many people hear this whole like, you know, science and religion can't coexist, or if you're a logical person, you're not a, you know, a religious person. And it's fascinating. That it's not fascinating when you really understand it, because God is a God of order and logic. He is the creator of logic. He is the creator of all of these things. When we talk about the universe and we talk about things we give names to, we're simply observing something that He created. We are not creating it. We are not creators. We are observers. And so all things that we create came from something He already created. speaker-0: And so for you sitting on the back row of of this sermon that's happening, that you're all alone. You that a dude invites you and you're like, I'm good, I'm gonna be back here. speaker-1: Inland Inland Hills Church in in Chino Hills, yeah. speaker-0: Once going through your head and your heart, like what what takes you to a point? Where? You're weeping. speaker-1: I think to that point, as much as you can justify all the things that you do in your life, when truly faced with God's view and with his standards, you realize just how far you've fallen short. And so I think I knew then that you know there was just so many things that I had done wrong. And that I had no ability to reconcile myself to those things. And in my spirit, because God has written it on our hearts, you know the wrong things you do. You know they're wrong. And so I think what what I was sitting there, you know, and God was putting into me was a conviction, right? A very clear conviction about who I was and who he was. And the the massive infinite chasm between those two things. speaker-0: Mm. Mm. And so when you roll up in a Jeep with the top down to pick up Jen for one of your first serious dates, what is her family's reaction to seeing a dude, two pierced ears, pierced tongue? You got tats at this point. speaker-1: I do have a tattoo. Yep, have a tattoo at that point. Yep. their their reaction is Well, it's odd to me, because you know, I just think about how I would respond if you know, Lily, our oldest, had some guy roll up with that descriptor. her parents were really lovely and kind to me. Her mom, all the way up until even like I f officially asked her out months later, was like, you know, there's a lot of fish in the sea, and are you sure you wanna do you know, so I think she had some very, very valid concerns. her dad, Jim, he was just really kind to me, funny, sarcastic, but you know, hardworking, cared for his family. And I think they really welcomed me. They welcomed me in in in a bunch of ways. And I think that was super meaningful to my walk with the Lord because I got to see what a Christian family looked like. What does it what does it look like when people sit down for dinner as a nuclear family and there's there's Bibles sitting around and they read them and they know them and they go to church and there's all this stuff that, you know, again, like I'm a brand new believer. So there's these, there's a very interesting first principles exercise for a lot of people who've never been Christian or even considered the Christian faith, which is you don't actually know what it's like. To even say you don't like it or think it like you have some version of like The Simpsons and Ned Flanders in your mind about what this might look like. And then there's the reality of what it looks like. And so it was a an amazing gift that it wasn't just Jen and how firm she was and clear she was about her faith, but it was also her family who, you know, shared the truth, but also did it in a in a really loving, loving way that was still real. You know, I was like, there are Christians who can be sarcastic. You know, like this is before social media era, right? So you're not like seeing all the stuff that people get to see now about, there's like cool people and people who are up, you know, that none of that was was around. So if you weren't in the Christian community, if you didn't grow up in it, you had a I had a thought about it, especially right now. Think about the other things. I listen to I'm a hip hop head, I'm a right, everything's like the antithesis of what I would for me be like the corny Christian side of things. Mm-hmm. So just seeing her her family was extremely welcoming and and just encouraging in my walk with the Lord. So it was speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: they were instrumental. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And and at what point did her mom stop saying that there's other fish in the sea? speaker-1: I don't know. I'd have to go back and think about it. I give her a hard time now. But I mean from that that day that I came to the house to to ask her out, you know, I don't know, it was a while 'cause we we dated for almost seven and a half years before we got married. and yeah, I mean her parents are are my parents. They're the most lovely People. We all have our flaws and I've got plenty of them. but being around each other for as long as we have now. you know, I was thinking about this the other day. Like her dad was younger than I am now when we first met. and so yeah. No, now she's the opposite the opposite now. She was giving Jen a hard time when we were camping the other week because Jen like was messing with me or said something and she's like, Don't don't talk bad to my son-in-law. speaker-0: Yeah. I love that. Seven and a half years in and you finally get married. What took so long? speaker-1: We were young, one, two, I didn't where we grew up in Southern California, it wasn't like the Calvary kids, which we found later, which are like they get married at 18 or 19. Right. it was more like you go to college, you get your degree, you get a good job, then you get married. Yeah. So Jen was very clear on wanting to get her undergraduate degree. We also just kind of talked about it. It was like I wanted to have a really good job. I wanted to feel like I could be a good provider. And and she wanted to be done with school. And so she ended up getting her master's degree in education. and so it was really while she was in that masters program was when I asked her, you know, to marry me. And then we were engaged for about a year, year and a half. and yeah, and then we got married. It was speaker-0: It's pre go on. speaker-1: No, no, yeah. So it was it was it was seven it was seven and a half years in the making, but you know, from eighteen to whatever that is, twenty five, twenty six. Yeah. speaker-0: Probably a smart move to not go the child bride direction. Like I think I I commend that. I feel like speaker-1: No, I I think you can. I don't think there's, you know, I I don't know. I I I don't know that I have a an opinion. I think it's great to get married. I think that the idea of, you know, shopping the market isn't that's not a thing. and and yet that was our that was our journey, you know. Guys, gosh, like I don't know, our frontal lobe doesn't fully develop we're like fifty or something, right? So I think there was there was some work to be done. speaker-0: I I think it's later than that. It's gotta be you gotta be like in your seventies. Yeah. speaker-1: Maybe it just never happens, yeah. speaker-0: I do think about Just Do Something, the Kevin Young book that you recommended. I do think that how prolific that was of just like, man, it at a certain point you just make a decision and you just go with it. A hundred percent. I think it's so easy to get caught in this loop to where what if and especially in you know, today's day and age, there there's a point where you just make a decision and you go. speaker-1: Yeah, getting married is is a decision. Love is a decision. Yeah. And you know, I always say Jen, Jen's way smarter than me, but I'm a better salesman, so I just had to close the deal. And once I closed the deal, we were locked. You know what I mean? There was no there was no turning back. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: But no, I think I I think that That's why a lot of people can get married young because the bene I think the benefit of marrying young is that you make that decision. And if you make that decision that we're gonna be together regardless of situation or scenario, obviously not talking about the crazy things that can happen. then you can grow up together and you can learn each other together as you grow. And that's also a really like we've even though we weren't married, we did have like the ability to really grow up together in a lot of ways. you know, and That was that was huge because this this many years later, even though you're still learning about each other and you're changing year to year, there's just so much history that you know about each other and there's so there's so much depth there. We're we're actually best friends. I want to always hang out with her. We wanna go on like that that's a that's a big deal. So speaker-0: There's people who have been married a really long time who are not best friends. And I think that they're just waiting it out at this point. speaker-1: That does happen. They're like, let's just get the kids out and then we'll yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. What what do you think? What do you think's different? speaker-1: We are both people who know what we want and aren't shy about sharing what we want. And so bef part of that pre-era before you get married is also realizing and aligning to truly be equally yoked. To know that, like we believe the same things about how to raise kids, about what is a family look like, what is a marriage look like, what is prioritizing each other look like. And getting Aligned there is really important because so many people don't get aligned on that. And then they get into marriage. And it's like, I thought you were going to be the person who did this. And I thought this was going to be this way. And and then the other thing is outside of the Christian worldview, it's it's not that it's difficult. It's just that we have a source to go back to for ultimate truth about how we should be operating in our marriage. So it's not like winning an argument about this thing. It's like, wait, no, like I'm called to do this as a husband. You're called to do this as a wife. And and so then it kind of settles a lot of the arguments in that sense. and then on the the friendship side, I think it's just a matter of making that choice really early on. we we do fun things together. Even when we before right when we had kids, there was I made the decision that like, We our marriage will be prioritized over everything. The order of things will be our faith and then our marriage and then our children. And that has to manifest itself in everything you do. Like when I come home from work, I would go past the kids and greet Jen first, then say hi to the kids. The the best thing that they can see is that I'm passionately in love with their mom. When Lily was two weeks old, first child. We I said we're going on an overnight stay in Newport Beach for our honeymoon or our honeymoon for our wedding anniversary. And Jen cried as we drove away. I remember it. But it was so important. It was less about the overnight and the technicality, and it was more about a heart move to go like, hey, things are gonna be hard potentially. This is but we're going to do this because it's that important that we show each other that. We are the priority here. Past after our faith, it's you and I and our relationship is going to be prioritized. and so I think just kind of making some of those hard decisions is it it's it's the stuff that people don't see, but it's the stuff that makes all the difference in the world. speaker-0: Mm. Mm. Do you feel like you all have established any habits or routines that have helped you all succeed in your marriage? speaker-1: Hmm. Yeah, I mean, we do things like, you know, every Saturday morning we it's I go, I make coffee, and we sit together and we just talk for, you know, hour or two sitting together, just talking about how things are going. We have, you know, weekly dates and where we live, it's nice because it's like typically an hour away. So we've got an hour drive there, date, plus an hour drive back. So we just do a lot of talking. and then, you know. Big unlock when your kids get older because you can go out and not have to bring them or get a babysitter. That's really challenging when you're a young parent. So when we were even when the kids were young, like we had standing, you know, babysitters and dates. and then just like walks are a great thing, especially as you go into the fall. But if if you live in an area with nice weather, especially just going on walks together. No agenda. Motion creates emotion. It's also just a place to have conversations. So we just talk a lot and we do a lot of things together. Like, like this morning, one of my coaching clients canceled because something happened with his mom. And so the kids were doing a soccer skills practice, and I'm like, well, I'll go, I'll just drive separate. And then we'll sit together. So I went and the kids are down the skills practice. Jen and I are sitting up in the stands together and we're just hanging out. We're having a little bit of conversation while watching, like I sent you a text or whatever. And then I would drive and I drove separate to come here for you know a call and then meeting or whatever. It's just making those small choices to spend time together without an agenda. speaker-0: Mm. Mm. speaker-1: Just creating pro constant proximity. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: Versus like these big everything's a big moment or we gotta go do this big thing. Yeah. Yes. Jen says it to me all the time, you know, and I'm like, I wanna do this with the kids or this. She's like, Yes, I agree, but it's also just like the day to day little hanging out with them that makes all of the difference in the world. So I think the same thing applies to marriage. speaker-0: Yeah, I love that man. seven and a half years of dating and at some point along the line you get what you would deem to be a really good job. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: What what was that? speaker-1: Let me think. What was the really good job technically? I was a branch manager at a bank. speaker-0: Branch manager to bank. And so how how does how does the dude double pierced ears, pierced tongue, go and get to be a branch manager at a bank? speaker-1: man. dumb luck. No. Yeah. By by God's grace. I I I had made my way up through sales, did a bunch of sales stuff, and I was pretty good at sales. So you get pretty good at sales. the first official job I had outside of like, you know, the first corporate job was I I was selling cell phones in a single person kiosk inside of a Walmart and Pomona for ATT wireless. Nice. and then eventually became, you know, an assistant store manager when I was like nineteen, maybe, maybe twenty. And then got out of that, got into the finance world, sold loans, sold second mortgages, sold first mortgages, then managed a team of loan officers, and then went into banking and managed a few different locations, like gathering assets along kind of the s the Ventura County, Santa Barbara Coast. And then when it was actually a countrywide mortgage and then countrywide banking, which a lot of people don't even know they had a bank, but we did. It was like a non-traditional. bank, so cashless and very high like sales, whatever. And then when when the financial crisis came through and countrywide failed, Bank of America bought countrywide. And as a part of that, they wanted us to stay on, obviously, gave us these big retention packages to keep people happy and keep people's deposits, and then offered me a a transition from there, which was very non-traditional banking, to a traditional managing of a of a bank branch. So my first job in a traditional bank branch wasn't teller, it wasn't banker, it was a manager. So yeah that was my it was truly like my wife was a teacher, I was a banker, banker's hours, bank branch manager. That was like the that was the big transition. Yeah. speaker-0: And speaker-1: We got married in in 2008. speaker-0: Right on. Perfect time. speaker-1: In the middle of the time, yep. Bought our first so we bought our house a week before we got married, closed on our house, and then got married the next week. So got to like carry Jen over the threshold of our new house and like I was a banker and she was a teacher. It was all it was all that. Yeah. It's a whole experience. speaker-0: and you bought the home in two thousand eight? speaker-1: Yep. June of two thousand eight. speaker-0: And s when did remind me, when did things go south in two thousand eight? speaker-1: They went south after that. speaker-0: So what was going through your mind? 'Cause dude, you're married six months and you just bought this house, yeah, carried your wife to the threshold, speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: and within a six months of that happening, your company completely goes under. Bank of America has to come take it. Yeah. speaker-1: Yep. speaker-0: Like walk me through that season, man. speaker-1: It was it was fascinating. I mean, she was also a teacher, so like, you know, teachers get pink slips and stuff and you know, there was all all of that as a challenge. I don't even remember what I was thinking. I I'm I think I was just in problem solve mode, you know? and I think I thought it was pretty cool to get an opportunity to go work at a bank. Cause I was in non-traditional banking. So I don't it's hard to explain the difference between it, but it was nothing like that. I was, you know, it was lo loans basically, essentially loans. And then the countrywide bank was like these little tiny centers where people would come in and open up CDs and savings accounts, but you couldn't actually touch it. They had to put it in an envelope and put it in a FedEx drop box inside of there so that there was no exchange of cash. But we were doing massive dollar amounts, you know, 300 million dollars in a in a a couple of locations. And anyway, it was it was just a very fascinating experience. So to go from that to like a traditional branch where like people are coming in and cashing checks and you've got merchant tellers and you got business bankers. it was I thought it was interesting. I wasn't concerned at the time because I had the retention package. That they were, because they wanted me to stay on so that people wouldn't come. We were, we were at this bank when they when they announced the failures of Indimac and like the FDIC did takeovers, and we had lines out the door of people doing the run on the bank, trying to get their deposits out because they were worried about the FDIC limits. Like it was we I was there in the thick of all of that. so yeah, I I I don't I don't recall being worried. I'm sure I was. speaker-0: What you know, I think about how there's certain times in history where it would be really incredible to be doing a specific job at a specific moment of time. Like I think about like a AI engineer right now. It's like you're living your dream. Like what what a thing to learn. And I feel like when it comes to 2008, being in the finance industry or real estate industry would be that same equivalent. And so what was that like experiencing run on the banks and having to deal with that as the branch manager? speaker-1: You know, it was fascinating and it was such a great learning opportunity. I think it built it builds up a lot of resilience for the future. I think it's kind of like being somebody who grew up without the internet and the internet. You kind of know what it was like. I know what it was like to not have any internet. And I know what it's like to have it. So you kind of can understand that flow. It's a similar idea. So, you know. People being super excited about the markets or asking about bubbles and what will happen if things h it's like a lot of kids who are in the finance industry, not even kids, I mean full grown men and women, adults, they've never experienced any real big shock wave, right? Outside of like COVID. so when you have that perspective, you you don't have as much concern because you just know that. Like stuff's gonna the sun's gonna rise tomorrow. speaker-0: Right, right. Yeah. how did you get ready for this? What like did you have any sort of education to step into these kinds of roles? speaker-1: I mean, training essentially was just training along the way, but no, I mean my first in from a finance perspective, my first gig was just calling people who to sell them a second mortgage on the phone and making a hundred and twenty calls a day to people who filled out a pop-up on the internet trying to convince them to, you know, take out a home equity line of credit. and of course there was training in that along the way. Yeah. So I mean it was really Training through experience. and then of course training through these large behemoth organizations who have very robust training programs to for you to learn a lot about the industries. And then as I progressed in my career, you got different levels of access to education. Like, you know, I eventually went to Pacific Coast Banking School at the University of Washington. I did the American Bankers Association business school. You there's a lot of I had Three executive coaches. So you y you go through different trainings at different levels, but most of it came from first principal's experience. speaker-0: I see. Okay. What having three different executive coaches what was What was that experience like? speaker-1: More eye-opening than I thought it would be. I think. I think some of the things that they've said to me have stuck with me and and still stick with me now. And There's not a lot of other experiences I have. Like when I think about trainings I've gone through, none of those stick with me. But when I think about the experiences I had with some of these coaches and the feedback they gave me and the direction and coaching that they gave me, it really sticks. And it it was more life-changing than the formulaic exchange of value would give you. Right. Meaning it was it was ethereal in the feedback, but fundamentally would change the way I would behave in in leadership, which is huge. speaker-0: Mm. What were some examples of the feedback that they gave that have really shaped you? speaker-1: Two that I think of a lot is I remember going into a meeting with a bunch of other kind of managing directors, peer peer group. And, you know, it's one of those things in corporate, like this is a Fortune 150 bank, hundreds of thousands of employees, you know, lots of managing directors, but people are trying to prove themselves. Everybody's trying to show they're valuable, right? Because it's a big company. And I'm in there and I, you know, people are going back and forth and I'm giving my ideas and doing this and doing that. And I remember this coach told me afterward, hey Adam, just because you have a good idea doesn't mean you need to share it. And I remember being like, I don't I don't even know what you're what you mean right now. You know, like that just makes no sense to me. I'm sitting there, I'm in a meeting, somebody says something, I have a good idea, I'm gonna share that idea. he expanded on that further, which is kind of the second thing I think about. And he said, as you grow in leadership, it's going to be a lot less important how you manage your vertical relationships. Because you've gotten to this place because you know how to manage people well, aka people who work for you, and you know how to manage up the people that you work for love what you do, you're good at it. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: But how good at you, how good are you at managing the horizontal relationships, your peers? How good everything now, your success, your growth will come from influence and your ability to influence the people in and around you. With ideas that you might have. So what I want you to do is take that idea that you have, and if you're going to share it, share it about 70% of the way, and then let the rest of the room bake it to the final 30%. And you're gonna find out two things, which I did find out. Thing number one was everybody was more bought in, right? Because they were a part of the solution. But the thing I and I anticipated that part, but the thing I didn't anticipate was that. Way better ideas came out of it. That last 30% produced things that I never would have thought of. And so it was a great opportunity to be humbled and to not, you know, drink the flavorade of my own hype, like, I've got great idea. Yeah. And actually seeing that there's so many people and diversity of thought and bringing people in. is it's such a valuable thing. I used to get really frustrated actually by one of my leaders who would constantly bring other people into meetings. And I'm like, why do we need all these people here? There's too there's too many people. Everybody's gonna and it was because they understood that having different people in this room was actually really helpful because they th they all thought differently. So that was a that was a big one. speaker-0: Yeah. And then you said there was two. What was the second one? speaker-1: well, those two were attached. So the for the first one was just that I don't need to share you know, it was kind of like don't share every idea you have was also you don't always need to speak. So not even that I need to share the 70%. It's just sometimes you just need to to sit and participate and listen. Yeah. And it's not that you need to be the last one to speak. I think a lot of people tell you that, but sometimes you just don't need to speak. And for somebody who feels like they have a lot of ideas, that's very hard to hear. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: Because you're like, I I must say something. and and so that was the the big one was like I can be in a a room, a meeting and not necessarily speak and maybe just encourage, but I don't need to bring any idea to the table in this meeting. Other people and other people will learn a lot about themselves and their own ideas by having the freedom to create without you being involved. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And so when did your time in quote unquote corporate America come to a close? speaker-1: that would have been in 2001. Yeah, so about eight, almost nine years ago now. and that shift was like my favorite shift ever in the sense that I went from a world of in banking and finance, the most difficult thing is that you're not really selling anything tangible, if that makes sense. You're selling like accounts. Or loans. And I know those get tangible things for people, but they're still a service. And I went into selling a literal automotive suspension part, like a a physical unit thing. And so learning and solving the problems of like manufacturing, learning what it means to to move a product, the supply chain. that whole experience was was like a very amazing experience. And I really like to learn new things. So it was just another new thing I got to learn. And when I got into that space, I became I became pretty excited about about it and about, you know, learning how to crack that nut, solve that code. And I also was able to apply this the corporate learnings of dispensability into these smaller businesses that don't have the same resources, don't have the executive coaches, don't have the robust programs, don't have the, you know, performance plans and employee engagement, you know, all the stuff that you can bring in and apply that that usually is gate kept at those high levels. speaker-0: Hmm. So so with 10 years roughly, give or take, in corporate America, I mean, ha it sounds like the executive coach has definitely expedited a lot of the learning, but at the same time being in the day-to-day operations and being, lack of a better term, a cog in the machine, what were some of the things that really were drilled into you about how to run a successful business? speaker-1: Mm. Well, it was it was about eighteen years. So two thousand to two thousand eighteen. speaker-0: Two thousand to two thousand eighteen. Okay, okay. So we'll count the eight years selling before you got actually speaker-1: Yeah, because I was at ATT Wireless. I went through a singular merger. I went through a lending tree. It was all c that was all corporate. what I learned about running a successful business, I would say It's it's asymmetric in like the early portion of my career. It was this big learning about how to sell really well and how volume it matters and and business is a contact sport. And so, you know, the more shots you take, the better chance you have at making them. And then the core the tail end was really learning the discipline of running very large, complex teams, projects, influence. And the discipline of systematic financial management, right? Like really deep understanding from a finance perspective. And so it was like the combination of those three things. It was like learn to sell, then I learned to manage a lot of people. And I learned how to run high quality operations because these are very complex projects. And I learned how to manage the money side of it. so it was almost like, The the the seasons the winter, spring, summer, and fall of that corporate experience was every aspect of running a great business. speaker-0: man, that I love that. That's a great description. And so for you spending eight years selling and you're a young gun really trying to just figure it out, trying to prove yourself, trying to eventually get that really good j job, quote unquote. What are some things about selling that you're like, man, eighty twenty principle? This this really makes a massive difference. speaker-1: Well, so I had learned to sell really at a really young age. I used to go to the ice cream man and buy the whole thing of sour strips and resell them at school. I sold women's shoes in a in a mall. I like I sold, you know. and what I learned in that period of time was that as the reason I learned to sell was because coming from not a lot, that was the place that I could make money. I realized very quickly, like without a deep education, without some leg up or experience, if I knew how to sell, I could I was making more money when I was, you know, 18 than than people 10 years older than me. And it was just selling. And it was like, okay. So this this kind of works. and what I learned was. I actually didn't like selling. So as much as this could surprise some people, I'm a hyper introvert, I actually really enjoy building systems. I did selling because I knew that I could make money doing it. That's why I got good at it. But that served me really well. what what I learned that I didn't like about selling was selling people stuff they didn't want and trying to be some sleazy sales guy who, you know, is trying to close the deal. And so I learned that my curiosity was my greatest weapon for selling. And that Asking questions, that's all I had to do was ask a lot of questions. Because the the analogy I give is that selling is like, I have this gun. And let's say my gun is to be fired at somebody who is who, you know, that's the sale. Every time I ask a question, I'm putting another piece of ammunition in that gun. So I ask a question and I put a piece of ammunition in. And I ask a question, I put a piece of ammunition in. By the time I get to the selling part, I've got a full clip. So if I were to give advice to somebody selling, the biggest rookie mistake that salespeople make is selling too fast. So they ask a question, like, hey, you know, what do you do? And somebody says, I do this. And they're like, I've got a solution for you. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: Instead, just keep asking questions. It's called need space selling. So I never have to actually sell anybody anything because I only give them things that they need. You ask a bunch of questions as you uncover needs. Now I come back and I go, awesome, McLean. So from our conversation, you mentioned that you want this, you don't like this, you do need this, and you want to see more of this. Based on that, here's some of the things that I would recommend. So now I'm I'm just connecting the things that you said you need with the thing that I have. that is so powerful. And the way you do that, if I were like giving somebody scripting, would be just start your conversation by saying to your client, hey, McLean, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I'm gonna take some notes along the way. Is that okay? Yeah, sure. It's great. Okay, great. Hey, tell me a little bit about your business. Tell me a little bit about what kind of cards, credit cards you're using today. Tell me a little bit about, you know, the suspension on your vehicle today. You just ask these questions and then how often do you do that? Then your needs-based selling is like a it's a slam dunk. And that's how I became a top salesperson. was, you know, just really selling to needs. speaker-0: Yeah. And and so you said your secret weapon the secret weapon really was coming from a point of questions. Yeah. So what makes a good question? speaker-1: A good question comes from genuine curiosity and not a desire to get an answer that you want. A good question. speaker-0: Marriage our marriage counselor said the exact same thing. I was like I was really curious of what that would be. And that's so funny. I love it, man. I love that. Okay. A genuine okay, keep going. Genuine curiosity. speaker-1: Genuine curiosity, are you actually interested in what this person has to say, or are you asking them a question to lead them to the place that you'd like them to go? speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: And so real great questions come from a place of deep care for the person. And a really good question doesn't come from a place of selfish desire to sell your thing, right? So like If I'm at Target and I want to sell a credit card, okay, my question is not do you have a Target credit card? Are you interested in signing up for a card today? Answer is always no. The question is, hey, do you use credit cards? yeah, I do. Which ones are your favorite? they're this. Why are those your favorite? because I get X, Y, and Z. Their answers might actually tell me that the target card isn't the best for them. And I might get to the end and be like, that's super interesting. We do have this card, but it sounds like you've already got something that's really good. Do you know how many people I have told they shouldn't buy the thing I'm selling? I infinite amounts. Because my interest is in asking them questions to uncover what might actually be helpful to them. Not what might be helpful to me. Those things can go together. There can be a win-win. And the difference I would say in in like a marriage relationship is that we're not selling anything. So when you ask your wife a question, it's like, are you asking a question because you're interested in finding out what she thinks about something? Or are you asking her a question to like get her to realize something? Different questions. speaker-0: Yeah. How how do you balance the sense in a sales job? You can get to a point where you're like, I I know in the back of my mind what the quota is. And I know I need to hit a certain thing for XYZ to happen. Or speaker-1: I I'm a person who is I like to be toxically by maybe by some people's measure direct. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: So like I mean I would just tell people like hey, okay, my goal is to sell you this house. That's my goal. Cause I'm I'm I'm here to sell houses. But I'm not gonna sell you this house if it's not for you. So like it's really just a matter of one, the balance is one being honest, and then two, understanding that volume cures a lot of ills. So like if I told you that for certain one hundred nos from now you were gonna get the biggest yes of your life, how fast would you chase those no's? speaker-0: Right. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: You could I you couldn't stop me. I'd be on the phone smiling and dialing. So that volume is really that. And that was something my mom taught me really early on was like just, you know, keep your volume up. And you know, the harder you work, the luckier you get. I speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I don't believe in we don't believe in luck, right? It's like God's provision, but obedience is still required. You still have to take action, right? and then you get to see if God works. You know, you don't handle the outcomes, but you're gonna plant and water. So I am like a relentless planter and waterer. But I don't control the I don't control the weather. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. What were some other lessons that your mom taught you? speaker-1: gosh, so many. Yeah, that one I could go on forever on. I mean my mom My mom is an amazing entrepreneur and leader and she never stopped planting and watering, you know, to provide. she taught me one of the big things she taught me was that everything's negotiable. And closed mouths don't get fed. So just ask. And and that's a that's a scary thing for a lot of people. But when you practice at it, you get really good. You just get really good at being like, well, do you want to go to this thing? Or hey, do you do you want this? And you're just not worried about them saying no. And that leads into the whole like, you know, this many no's leads to a yes. It was like every every no I get, every rejection I get is one step closer to the thing I'm trying to do. speaker-0: I love that. You're saying the different stages over the course of the 18 years was really first selling, then managing, then operations, then money. From a sales standpoint, it sounds like questions was really the secret sauce to that. And the root of it is coming from a place of genuine curiosity. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: And so when it comes to managing. What do you think some of those lessons were that you took away in that season? speaker-1: The biggest thing I took away from leading people is that people don't care what you know until they know that you care. And so I could be the most technical, high performing with the best answer and the best idea in the room. But so what? Because you're not a leader if you look behind you and no one's there. People have to want to follow you. So how do you lead them in a way that makes them want to follow you? It's really easy. You have to actually care about them. Like you have to actually care about them and then you need to demonstrate that care through non-transactional, unequal exchanges of given. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: Where you're not going, I'm going to invest this thing in you so that you give me this thing back. It's like, no, I'm just going to ask you how you're doing. I'm going to or I'm going to give of my time to ask you just how you're doing without an agenda to try and push you toward my widget or push you toward performance, but just to see how you're doing. People dramatically underestimate that. And I think that'll actually continue to get more important in the advent of hyper commoditization. And, you know, as you and I kind of have talked about like seeing some of the stuff that AI can do, when execution becomes a commodity, people are the thing that actually matters. It's like who wants to work for you? speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: Like I can, I I I think I said this before, like I can throw a rock and find somebody who knows how to do good execution. Right. But I can't throw a rock and find somebody who people want to follow and will follow into the fire and who will follow to a hot dog stand. I can't that's harder to find. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I'd love I'd love to hear maybe an example that comes to mind over the course of your career of when you were really proud of how you showed up as a manager. speaker-1: Hmm. That's a really hard one. I don't know, man. I think I'll let other people tell that story. I think people People experience you maybe differently than you think you are being experienced. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And I've had so many times where somebody's told me something affected them that I didn't think affected them, positively and negatively. Yeah. So I would say The things that I'm most proud of in the way I showed up as a leader has only ever had to do with the ways I have showed up in a way that pointed them to Jesus. And that there was no bit of it that had to do with me. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I think we we like we leave these these breadcrumbs, you know, along our leadership path. And, you know, there's stuff that I've done that impacted people negatively, and there's stuff that I've done maybe that has impacted people positively. I think what we have is what's in front of us today. And so I would say looking right now, I'm most excited about and grateful for the ability to lead a company like Sherman for Jesus from the front door. That's that's the part that gets me the most excited. speaker-0: I love them. Yeah. When you think back over your career, is there a manager who comes to mind for you that had a really positive impact in your life that you learned a lot from? speaker-1: There's there's three, that I four maybe even that I think of. And three of them are women. I've just been I've had such an amazing impact by women in leadership, possibly from being raised by a single mom. I'm sure that has something to do with it, who was a who is a who is a leader and you know, really showed what it was like to work hard. But my manager when I was at ATT, Kim Washington, She had like a very cool, calm, collected demeanor and helped me to kind of like rein in that young manager energy, you know, as a 19-year-old who was just hungry and had a lot to prove. And then in banking, Janice France Pettit, who was one of the first female CFOs in the country of First Western Bank in Santa Clarita, California. she really helped me to start to polish, like become more of like a high polished leader. I remember even just her showing how much she had my back. I remember her coming in with a client who was upset at the branch and whatever. He was mad about something and she just came in. And even though she told me something privately, she completely had my back in front of him and basically told him like you can walk. And he was a pretty high deposit client. And I remember thinking, wow, like this is somebody who really stands behind what they said because she didn't have to. And then another leader, Letitia Aguilar. she's the one who who always said to me, if you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there. And she was just a great combination of fun and care, but with hyper competitive drive, and balancing those two things. And so I got to learn a lot of that from her. and then if I were to have a fourth, I actually talk about him in the book. as well as is George Lease. He was the CEO of Santa Barbara Bank and Trust. And when we went through that acquisition, I came and worked for him in doing the integration of about 50 branches along the coast of California. And so he and I drove in a car up and down the coast. And he was just the most humble person that I'd ever met in that level of leadership. And we went every branch we went to, he knew people's names, he knew their families, he knew their dogs, they knew him, they were excited to see him. And on top of that, I remember one of the first times Jen met him, actually the first time, we were at we got asked to be in the parade at Spanish Days in Santa Barbara, which is like this big parade they have. And I came, I was talking to somebody else and I came over to see Jen and she had water. I'm like, where'd you get that water? She goes, yeah, somebody gave it to me. And I looked over and I'm like, who? And she pointed it, and it was George. She didn't even know who he was. She thought he was just like somebody working the show, like a maintenance. She thought it was a maintenance person because he never made it like that way. He was just he wanted to serve people well. And yet he was the CEO of, you know, Santa Barbara Bank and Trust. Now I I don't know if he's still with him, but I mean he was the president of Montecito Bank and Trust, right? Place where Oprah is. Like the we're talking about big influence, big experience. So yeah, he showed me that. You can be you don't have to do what the rest of people do and a lot of these high level leadership things and like peacock everywhere. You can just care about people and do great work. And he was wicked smart too. Like he was brilliantly smart. He he he worked on clocks, repairing clocks on a workbench in his house. Like, you know, he's just one of those guys. So yeah, he had a he had a lot of influence. He was also the one who told me, Just be prepared when you get in leadership that people are going to come after you. They'll they'll say things about you. They'll they'll y people will want to tear you down simply because you're in leadership. So just expect it so that you don't take it personally, you know, or think something about yourself because of it. So yeah, I mean I could go on, but those are probably the four I would say big, big influences for me. speaker-0: I love that. Those those are beautiful, man. you know, it kind of reminds me a little bit of our last episode you were talking about having a framework that you use for one on ones. And I'm curious where that framework comes from. speaker-1: it was just a framework that I'd created along the way. You know, when you're when you get into the volume of managing people that that I had the benefit of managing, you know, at one point I think I had like sixteen or seventeen direct reports. and then I was meeting with every employee of the company, at least in that like it was a startup, the startup bank that we we did. It was about 90 people. I was meeting with all of them every quarter. You develop a a robust kind of Like for me, I like systems. And I saw the plights of other one, I tried a bunch of other things. And it was like I always came back to the most valuable conversations that I would have with folks had nothing to do with a number review. And it had everything to do with just like getting to the heart of the matter, you know, and and telling them that I see you, I'm gonna push you, and I'm here to serve you in that. And if I could communicate that every time, that they would feel known and cared for and and in that order. And so because they felt known and because they felt cared for, they would be willing to share things along the way and be open to sharing the things they struggled with, but also share the have an opportunity to share the things they were super proud of, and also weren't afraid to ask for help. speaker-0: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: So I just developed it simply from a like getting the reps in and just going through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of one on ones. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. As as you stepped as you continue to manage but stepped into more of an operational role, what were the lessons that you began to realize seeing how the cogs of the machine worked? speaker-1: I realized that in the corporate world it was different. It was almost all about people management and driving execution through expectations and accountability while balancing with care. And then as I got into the small business space, it was like there's such a lack of systems that simply inserting systems and creating them would add exponential value. in ways that that business never really experienced. So it was kind of like taking what was learned in corporate and applying it in the best ways into small business. And I think that's what a lot of small businesses try to do, right? They try to look at the playbook of what the big guys have done or what people bigger than them have done. And and so for me, I just had that experience of doing it, which then allowed me to apply it and it felt easy, it felt obvious, right? And that's something that I tell people all the time, just because it's obvious to you doesn't mean it's obvious to everybody else. speaker-0: Mm. Yep. I I'm curious to get your take on this. I think back to early Facebook when the motto was move fast and break things, which was so antithetical of all of corporate America. Yeah. And I think about How more and more entrepreneurs are really stepping into their own journey and there's and we're seeing and times are changing so much faster that it's important to be able to stay nimble and shift and to pivot. And so as a small business, how do you think about developing the systems that are needed? While also staying nimble enough to be able to pivot to whatever the technology dictates to whatever the market dictates in an ever changing world that we're really growing into today. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's why I moved away from three and five year goals. I like three and five year dreaming, but one year goals is really all that we need. And then monthly cycles of execution allow for fast pivots. So you still set like a destination in the GPS. It's just a year is not a year goes by really fast. Yeah. and so for me, the balance there is that I dream about what the world might look like a few years from now. And then we design and kind of where we want to go. And then we design a very specific and measurable goal for the for the next year. And then as we execute on monthly cycles, you realize one, you can pivot along the way really fast, even in those monthly cycles. And then I hold very open-handed those one year goals. If during the middle of that execution the world changes or something really shifts, then Absolutely. Let's look at changing that one-year goal. One thing about me in in business at least is that I'm very willing to change with new information. And I think the balance there is like that we don't go down this path of not setting those goals because we just want to see what happens and let the world float. But that we set the destination, but then we're willing to kind of like pull off the road if we see a a moose or a or a black bear. Like, hey, I'm going to Lamar Valley this week and I'm going to set the destination in the GPS from West Yellowstone to Lamar Valley because I want to go see the wolves there, right? That's my dream. But as I'm driving along that winding road and a grizzly bear comes out with pups, I'm going to pull over and stop. And if that means my whole day is shifted because of it, so what? and so I think it's that's the balance of of or the asymmetry of even holding that long term with the short term adjustments. speaker-0: Mm, yeah. What I mean, especially in in the coaching in the coaching side of things, when you think of things from an operational standpoint for most small businesses, what do most small businesses lack when it comes to systems? speaker-1: Conviction. speaker-0: Not where I thought this was going. speaker-1: Yeah. And I don't mean like spiritual conviction. I mean conviction about doing something about it. Most small businesses want the championship, aka they want an engine, but they don't have the conviction to spend the next year building it. speaker-0: Hmm. speaker-1: They want the short-term solution. And so what you see is a lot of small business owners who go. I really want to implement an execution system. I'll give you some examples, right? On Unbreakable OS, the software, you have the ability to go in, set your goals, and then run on monthly cycles of execution that are gated that ensure that you move in this direction. There are many people who start Unbreakable OS and then who don't use it because they said it's too complex. It's not that it's too complex. It's that you don't want to invest the energy it's going to take to put your company in a system of execution and then hold yourself accountable to it. It's hard. It's hard to wake up every day and do a thousand left-hand dribbles and then a thousand right hand dribbles. A thousand left hand dribble. You're gonna wake up one day and you don't want to do it. You know, you'll hear people who are like, my team doesn't like to do weekly updates. They just hate it. It's like, yeah, that that's what it takes. It's that you don't want, you don't have the conviction to say, this is where we're going, this is what we're going to do. And I know that that's going to produce results long term. So I think that's why so many small business owners and their teams will say, no, another thing, another thing that Joe's bringing on that we're not going to stick to. It's just another shiny object. speaker-0: yeah, yeah. speaker-1: So that conviction is is I think most small businesses lack that conviction. And I think in corporate, because it's like making a U turn in a cruise ship, you have to have conviction because once that thing turns, like we're we're going. And so they're gonna invest a lot of time, energy and money into making sure that thing goes. speaker-0: Yeah. That's a great point. That's a great point. The fourth piece of the puzzle of that journey of almost two decades in the corporate side of things. Ended with money. How did you start to see money differently in in that environment? speaker-1: Man, I mean, it was twofold. One, you know, as a as a when you start to do high level banking and financing, you learn I learned more about businesses and business finances and what how does cash flow act actually affect the business day to day? And what does it look like to do business equipment financing? And you know, what's the impact of not understanding a P and L or a chart of accounts or a balance sheet? Or so you you just learn I learned a lot about just really r the business from a finance the language of business. And then because it was also because I was a banker, I, you know, we were looking at things called like Ubippers, uniform bank performance reports that are highly complex, I'm gonna call it beans to count, about what makes a bank high level on performance and from a regulatory perspective. And doing like a camel's plus risk assessment, capital asset management, like so There was so much learned there in that space that what I learned was it's actually not that complex in small business. You know, when I got to the small business, it felt really easy to solve that equation. So it was like, that's it? okay. Well, like some of the just basic blocking and tackling isn't happening happening here. And I think in a lot of businesses, that's where a lot of them struggle because they feel like it's this. I don't know, really intimidating space that I don't know about. And so they kind of avoid it. And because of that, they really miss stewarding one of the most important aspects of the business, right? Like knowing well the condition of your flocks. Right. Flocks were an economic asset that produced wool and milk and offspring. And so knowing the condition of your flocks was knowing the condition of your economic asset. Well, your business is your economic asset. You need to know well the condition of that flock. And if you don't know the finance side of it, you don't know your business that well. And so I think that happens because most small business owners are really good at two things. Naturally, they're good at selling and they're good at getting whatever they're selling into people's hands, aka sales and marketing, and operations. Now, We can make arguments that there's bad systems in those, but the point is they know how to sell it and they know how to get it into somebody's hands. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: What they don't know how to do is actually make sure that the accounting side of it is happening the right way. And all they're looking at is their bank account. And they're like, take l take another distribution and hey, my business is making all of this money. do you pay yourself? No. Huh. Well, my business is worth this amount, but you don't pay anybody? Do you think when we sell this, we we're not going to pay a CEO to run it? You need to back out the cost of this CEO into the value equation of your company. Or, you know, so I think it's just it's this really important category that small business owners avoid because it doesn't come naturally. You know, when I was selling candy at from the ice cream man, I didn't have to know about finance. I just needed to know how to buy the stuff, resell it, and take the quarter from the kid instead of the dime. Yeah. I mean, and hand it to him. speaker-0: Yeah. Totally. so coming from like the complexity that comes in a large corporate environment, understanding the deep financial structure there, what are the things that if most small business owners understood when it came to finances, like listen, if you can get this, you're gonna be okay. speaker-1: Yeah. Three, it's literally law law three of of the seven that are in my book, which is essentially you need to close your books within seven days. So after the month ends, your accountant, your CPA, your controller, they need to close that book's all reconciliations made within a week, so that you can look at a profit and loss and a balance sheet. There's a lot in that profit and loss that I'd love for you to understand, but just understand it's really simple. The money that people pay you is your revenue, what it costs you to operate that business is the expense, and what's left over is your profit. That's what you need to start with. speaker-0: Can I ask a dumb question before you go to number two? Is why is that important? Like I understand it's like, yeah, okay, this is how much I'm getting in, this is how much I'm yeah like having to pay out. But why did why why is that important for me to know besides the fact of like as long as I don't spend more than I'm bringing in, then I'm gonna be okay. speaker-1: because the question isn't are how can you make your business okay? The question is how can you make your business fantastic? speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: And understanding the first principles. So give you a perfect example. I might talk to a business owner and they might tell me, My business has made this much money this year. Or December's a really busy t slow time for me. And then you look in first principles, and that's actually not neither of those things are true. Because The money that they get in December actually doesn't get paid until January. So actually it's January that's the cash month that's heavy. And December is a lot. So understanding that's important for one, you knowing how to run your business, right? Because even just being a if you only understand revenue, for example, which is what a lot of small business owners talk about. we're two things that I think are really dumb to talk about as a business owner. Your revenue and your employee count. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: Whenever I hear somebody tell me how much they've done in revenue or they lead with how many employees they have, I immediately know that they don't understand finance. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: Because they think by telling me that they're doing $60 million this year and they have 400 employees, that somehow there's an impressive sense to that. What I can tell you is that I have seen, and I see all the time, a $60 million business with 400 employees that makes a million dollars a year in net income. And I see a $6 million business with 12 employees that makes twice that in net income. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: What what business would you want to run? What business is is not even would you want to run, what business is running more excellently? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: There's a bunch of obviously like nuance in that. I'm just giving a very broad example. Yeah. But it's important because it is the condition of your business. So for example, if you ever want to sell your business, if you ever want to hand it off, if you ever want to lever it as a value and take some chips off the table and do an earnout with a private equity firm. That's the only thing they're gonna look at. The first thing they're gonna look at is your finances. And if you don't understand it, it's the first place you're gonna get taken advantage of. speaker-0: Mm. that's good. speaker-1: It's like hiring somebody for marketing and not really knowing how marketing works. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: They can just charge you whatever they want. They're speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: like, Well, I guess that's what it costs. So understanding finance protects you in a lot of ways, so which allows you to steward the business better. speaker-0: So so you said three things that were super important. One is Yep. One is the speaker-1: Close books, close the books. Two is to have seven months of operating cash reserve. So that's just a reserve for two purposes. One, you can survive a two quarter plus one month winter with no revenue coming in, which isn't likely to happen, but we're gonna protect for that because all the way back to the beginning of this conversation, you don't know if 2008 and 2009 is coming. Right. You don't. And they're especially in the world of AI. There could easily be catastrophic disruptions to a lot of people's businesses. Okay, so so we're gonna prepare for that. But that also positions you to make acquisitions of distressed assets in times that are tough. The best time to buy stock is when everyone's selling. And the best time to buy a business is when times are tough. Right? If you're the person who you would never want to just buy high, right? So having that seven-month operating cash reserve positions you with a little bit of a war chest, not huge, but a little bit of a war chest to make acquisitions of distressed business, which then can position you really well for the future. It can help you grow. There's lots of things that come from that. And then the third aspect is managing your accounts receivable and accounts payable days. Really, that's just understanding what is the average number of days it takes for me to pay a bill, AP, and the average number of days it takes for people to pay me. And we always want the average number of days for people paying me to be smaller, aka we want them to pay faster, than we pay out. The difference between those two numbers is your cash flow. And There are a lot of profitable companies that go out of business because they couldn't make payroll. And speaker-0: Mm, hmm. speaker-1: they couldn't make payroll because of their AR and AP days. They didn't manage their cash flow. And all the way back to like the fundamentals of why this whole thing is important. And that is revenue is vanity, profit is sanity, and cash is reality. speaker-0: And so from these seasons that you went through, learning to sell, learning to manage, learning to operate. Learning about money. I feel like entering the small business era was also a really big shift because it took away it it set the strong foundation for how do you run a successful business, but also brought didn't include How do I learn about bringing God into this business? And so what were some of the lessons that you learned about inviting God into that part of your life and what did that look like? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, the the whole era of the 20 years that I was in, you know, this sort of corporate, just call it working as a a corporate cog, was the opposite. God was was not a part of any of those conversations. And I kept that very separate. My faith was very separate from my work. Not to say I wouldn't tell you what I believed or that I wouldn't tell you that, hey, this helps to inform how I lead and all the I want to do servant leadership. It was just that was the extent. It wasn't actually integrated. and it wasn't even when I first got into the small business world. It wasn't until I joined C twelve. It wasn't until I joined C twelve that that shift really changed for me. And that was, you know, four years ago now. So four years ago was when I really started to take seriously and understand that my faith and business were never separate. And the lesson that I learned was that it's like you and I talk about like. You, if you're in small business, you can do whatever you want. Yeah. Like coming from a world of red tape, so that's the thing in corporate, everything's red tape. You don't get to make the decisions. I don't get to change a bunch of stuff that I would want to change. Sure, there's a level of autonomy, but that level of autonomy still has that corporate top on it, right? In small business, you can do whatever you want. And so if you're not bringing Jesus into your business, it's because you've decided not to. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: And so what I learned was it it felt weird, but it was like, what do you mean? Of course I'm gonna lead a business for Jesus from the front door because I can. Give me a compelling reason why I wouldn't. speaker-0: Was it weird the first time doing that? Because I feel like you have eighteen years being drilled into you of like, we don't do it this way. speaker-1: Yeah. It was even more than that, right? Because it was like four years in the suspension business. So you're talking like 22, 23 years of this. it was completely strange. The first time I led my my company meeting with prayer, I was like, dude, this is weird. But it was like I I like got super emotional after because I was like, wow, like the Lord has just allowed me to pray in business. This this could never happen. How how did I get here? Right, right. You know? And then it was like, man. So yeah, I mean, I it was all very surreal to me and and still is. I mean, still is now, even when I get to pray before our meetings or like when we're talking about like, hey, let's send every new employee a Bible. like that's just it's it's a gift. And yeah, and I want everyone to experience that. speaker-0: What what happened to you just as a person, as like a spiritual person? Like I w I'm really curious what happened when you invited God into your business. How did that impact you personally? I could understand how it impacts you professionally. I could understand how it impacts you from a leadership position, but also I know for me my faith shifted dramatically when a part of my life that I was not including God in suddenly. I chose to and I experienced a sh complete shift on my end. speaker-1: Yeah, I think I I have experienced and continue experience continue to experience a sense of wholeness that I've never felt before. That because I I no longer feel like I'm only bringing a part of me into the equation. So yeah, there's just a sense of of fullness that could only come by actually bringing it into the business. Not even bringing it into it, just realizing that it was there and letting it out, taking the blanket off the lamp. speaker-0: Yeah. Did you e experience any shifts or changes personally or in in your walk with Christ when you started to bring that into the conversation? speaker-1: I think it just got deeper. I just I it was it's no longer for me personally, it was no longer like, well, let me read my Bible here morning and like have my time I'm gonna have my time with the Lord. And it was like, no, all the times with the Lord. So like, throughout the day, and I'm gonna I pray more throughout the day and I go to his word more throughout the day. And so it's no longer like this, we need our time with God. It's like, no, no, you're just with God all the time. He's with you. And so you just need to recognize that more. And when you rec when I recognize that more and as I recognize that more, it just yeah, it it it affects me personally just throughout my each and every day. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And it's no lon no longer feels like something that's like, you know, a separate thing. speaker-0: Yeah. If you could go back to your eighteen year old self, just meeting Jen. Two pierced ears, pierced tongue, first tattoo. You're building out the sleeve. What speaker-1: Covered up. No, it's covered up now. It was a it was a it was a a a dragon that's been covered up since then, so. speaker-0: Okay, all right. What what advice do you think that you'd give to him? speaker-1: You know, I am not the kind of person who lives with regret. I think that my my advice to anybody, including the eighteen year old version of myself, would be to follow the Lord more deeply sooner. And Unapologetically. Integrate your faith, open your faith into business and use that thing that you know, which is closed mouths don't get fed, and that everything's negotiable instead of just for money, for negotiating and pushing for the gospel to be more made more known in whatever setting that you're in. speaker-0: Hmm. I love that, man. Like a as we're wrapping up here, I know that we covered a lot of ground across multiple decades. is there any question that I might not have asked or any anecdote that you feel really is sticking out that you want to share? speaker-1: Seek first the kingdom of God and all these other things will be added. speaker-0: I love it. I love it. Well, man, thanks for an hour fifty with me, hanging out. speaker-1: that's speaker-0: Let's go. Appreciate you, dude. All right, brother.