Latest / The Grove Church / The Parables of Jesus: A Q&A Wrap-Up

Transcript

The Parables of Jesus: A Q&A Wrap-Up · The Grove Church

• 0:04
  Charlie Loften: The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There are really big, deep questions that we ask each other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves. And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in our understanding of who God is, his word, and the way that he's called us to live. Everyone, welcome to the Cultivate podcast to The Grove Church.
• 0:38
  I'm Charlie Loften. I'm the lead pastor there, and we are here with Abigail, I found a different hat in my new house, Boone. Finally. I give you a hard time about wearing the same hat, and then where'd you find that one?
• 0:51
  Abigail Boone: It was underneath... So whenever I unloaded my new house, I'd put all of my old hats, or I'd put all of my most wearable hats in the bag, and then on top of that, I kept finding more hats and tossing them in. So now all of the old hats are what's on top, so I just found that bag and snatched it out.
• 1:13
  Charlie Loften: And yet
• 1:14
  Abigail Boone: It's still Onyx.
• 1:15
  Charlie Loften: It's still Onyx. It is still a coffee themed hat.
• 1:18
  Abigail Boone: Yeah.
• 1:18
  Charlie Loften: So you know what I've missed? What? I have missed the Q and A podcast because
• 1:26
  Abigail Boone: You don't have to do anything.
• 1:27
  Charlie Loften: And no prep.
• 1:28
  Abigail Boone: It's just your brain. No prep. Make sure your brain You is
• 1:31
  Charlie Loften: know, you said after we did one q and a through the Parables, you're like, I don't know that I'll have, like, these on a regular basis. Mhmm. But it still feels to me that we needed one to kind of
• 1:41
  Abigail Boone: Oh, for sure.
• 1:42
  Charlie Loften: Put a bow on the end of Yes. Yes. So There we are.
• 1:45
  Abigail Boone: More, I don't know if this is the right word, but global questions than, like, specific things about each story, you know?
• 1:52
  Charlie Loften: Right, right, right.
• 1:53
  Abigail Boone: So it's more like Bird's Eye View.
• 1:54
  Charlie Loften: Bird's Eye View. So that's where we started. We started
• 1:57
  Abigail Boone: Bird's And Eye then we went down to the weeds.
• 1:59
  Charlie Loften: And now we're way back up. Okay.
• 2:01
  Abigail Boone: Yes. So we're climbing the mountain yet again. I have enjoyed the series, though. Yeah? It has probably been the most, out of all the series we've done in my regular life, I've referenced this one ten times more.
• 2:15
  Really? Yeah. I think because it is so story based, so whenever someone's telling me something, I'm like, Oh, that's kind of like this parable.
• 2:22
  Charlie Loften: That's cool.
• 2:23
  Abigail Boone: And I've never had that set of context. And so it's like 10 times more applicable in small group when I'm having conversations with people, things come up that I'm like, Oh, it's kind of like that parable that me and Charlie talked about. I
• 2:35
  Charlie Loften: feel like it's less nerd based than the systematic theology one, and certainly less nerd based than whatever it is we're about to do for church history.
• 2:45
  Abigail Boone: But then that'll come up the most the most of my life just because
• 2:48
  Charlie Loften: Just because you want it to. Right. Right. I mean, did I mention on this podcast, I mean, just how proud I am of my Zwingli joke that I made at church a couple of weeks ago. Was just so proud of it.
• 2:59
  Like, was just like... I I... Like, just two days before, just looked at Heidi. I like, I've got this great joke, and only I'm gonna think it's funny because it is such a nerd church history kind of joke. And even the people that laugh aren't going to get how deep the layers of it are, but nonetheless.
• 3:17
  I asked Heidi afterwards, I was like, Do you think that's a top three zwingly joke that has been made in human history? Right? I mean, it's like Very niche. It's very niche. Like, how many have been made?
• 3:30
  Mhmm. And even if there have been, let's say a few dozen made, was top shelf.
• 3:34
  Abigail Boone: It's not just like niche to Christians. That is a name that most people don't know. Yeah. Mean, most
• 3:40
  Charlie Loften: people who are Calvinists don't realize know. That Zwingli was kind of his
• 3:44
  Abigail Boone: Mhmm.
• 3:45
  Charlie Loften: You know, spiritual grandfather. You know? Until
• 3:49
  Abigail Boone: The split off. It the panel? No.
• 3:52
  Charlie Loften: No. It was Luther v. Zwingli.
• 3:55
  Abigail Boone: Yes. Okay.
• 3:55
  Charlie Loften: But then but then the reason why Zwingli doesn't... Isn't as well known is because his branch turned into Calvinism. Okay. Because he he didn't live he didn't live a whole lot longer. And then John Calvin kind of took over the mantle of that theological branch.
• 4:09
  Abigail Boone: I bet it was because of the sanitation at Well, that
• 4:12
  Charlie Loften: I thought you could just say it was because of what Martin Luther condemned him. No.
• 4:16
  Abigail Boone: His fame is another thing. His lifespan was probably specifically But due to the situation he lived
• 4:26
  Charlie Loften: anyways He lived at the right time.
• 4:28
  Abigail Boone: You think so? You did. I did. Oh, a 100. You did.
• 4:31
  Charlie Loften: Yes. Lived at the
• 4:32
  Abigail Boone: right time. That is affirmed so many times. Even when have you ever seen the show Alone? It's like a kind of documentary survivalist Oh, goodness. Type So they there's like maybe 10 of them that are just dropped in the wilderness.
• 4:47
  Charlie Loften: My mother-in-law is really into that. It is. She's made me watch a couple episodes with her.
• 4:54
  Abigail Boone: It's insane. Just because you see like what the human is capable of surviving. It's not like they're thriving. Like, they're like, I guess I can get by on this many calories a day. It's not like they're extremists that are killing it out there.
• 5:08
  So it's literally just like, who can wait it out the longest. But there's so many things, and I'm like, that never would have crossed my mind as to like, how to get a fish without a fishing pole. Right. Like, I would not have been able to fend for myself.
• 5:20
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. The reality is I would never make it past the first level of their screening process. I would apply. Let's see if someone applied on my behalf. I would never make it past the first level.
• 5:30
  But if somehow I did It's one day in? It's like I could... If I had access to some... If I can get some access to some kind of clean water Mhmm. Like, I could...
• 5:39
  I have fasted for more than three days before. Mhmm.
• 5:43
  Abigail Boone: So you could at least last three days?
• 5:45
  Charlie Loften: Yeah, I think I'm in for The three
• 5:46
  Abigail Boone: amount of people that don't make it out or don't make it because they haven't pooped, like, it's not even just like they didn't survive the bed. It's like the tiniest thing that takes them out.
• 6:00
  Charlie Loften: Just got constipated.
• 6:01
  Abigail Boone: Yeah, and they just can't make it any longer because they have med checks that come in like every like seven days or something like that, but they're alone. Like, that would just be so terrifying to hear the first voice after seven days.
• 6:13
  Charlie Loften: Wow.
• 6:14
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. And you don't know that they're coming. Like, there's... You only have a satellite phone. I was born in the right time.
• 6:20
  Charlie Loften: Yes. You're
• 6:21
  Abigail Boone: very right about that. Parables. Parables. All right. So we're going to start kind of some things that we have probably more so covered towards the beginning of the podcast or beginning of the series kind of setting the stage of like how to approach these stories.
• 6:35
  I'm going to start there and then we'll dive a little deeper.
• 6:38
  Charlie Loften: Okay.
• 6:38
  Abigail Boone: So let's just recap Jesus' original audience that he was talking to. They... Well, do you wanna describe the original audience?
• 6:50
  Charlie Loften: Ahead. You go ahead.
• 6:50
  Abigail Boone: Okay. Well, combine that into your answer. With his original audience that he was talking to, so many of the parables talk about the kingdom of God. He's described the kingdom of God is actually like this, like things like that. What would have they...
• 7:03
  What would have that phrase meant to them?
• 7:06
  Charlie Loften: Right. So by and large, kingdom of God was not a widespread thing that people taught about. Okay. And so it would have been newish verbiage to them, but I think they would have had an intuitive feel to it, for one. Mhmm.
• 7:24
  Right? That was... Is is intuitive. I I get what this is. Like I say, if you read something talking about the kingdom of God, you may not be able to theologically precisely describe it, but you're like, okay.
• 7:36
  Like,
• 7:38
  Abigail Boone: Kinda know what this is. What
• 7:40
  Charlie Loften: would be like if God was in charge?
• 7:42
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. Right?
• 7:43
  Charlie Loften: But what they were... But the specifics of what a lot of them would have taken from it, especially depending on how advanced they were kind of in their own religious studies would have been. There was an anticipation, and you see this a lot all throughout the Gospels, that when the Messiah comes, a kingdom is going to be established. And they thought about it in a very nationalistic kick out the Romans. The nation of Israel is a regional, if not worldwide, superpower, and God is going to be the king, and we're going to have the kingdom of Israel again.
• 8:20
  Thinking back to the time of David and kind of the promises that were made to David of like, there's going be an everlasting kingdom that's going to be made, and so they thought about it in very geographic... Geopolitical terms.
• 8:33
  Abigail Boone: And
• 8:34
  Charlie Loften: so he's kind of borrowing that phrase and that idea, but turning it on its head. The kingdom of God is actually like being really chill and nice to people. That doesn't have anything... What the slaughtering of Roman soldiers? Like, where does that fit in?
• 8:49
  I was actually kinda like turning the other cheek and stuff. And you're like, okay. And so he is taking it from a geopolitical reality into more of a spiritual reality, a spiritual faith based, God centered, people loving community.
• 9:08
  Abigail Boone: Mhmm. So this might be a weird comparison to make, but, like, there's a difference in a solicitor showing up at your house, and you're like, this isn't even something I care about. You're trying to give me the spiel that I... It's not even on a list of things that I care about. And then there's been an issue at your house, and you've called the plumber, and they finally show up and you're like, I've been waiting for you to come.
• 9:29
  Please explain this. Which one would have they taken him as? Of like, this isn't even something we knew we should be caring about, so like, what? Or like, oh, we've been waiting for this kind of message.
• 9:42
  Charlie Loften: It's a little... I would say they would... Like, especially the Jewish leadership, they would have heard it more in terms of, Our house is just fine, thank you. Okay. Yeah, so I guess it would have been more in the solicitor Okay.
• 9:57
  Category. And I think the less and less educated you get, really what he's coming across as, I thought these were the right guys, he's saying something completely different. Like, understand because you guys are using the same words, but you're talking about something very, very different than what I've heard my whole life. So he is just a... He's teaching on the same topics using a lot of the same phrases, but saying Okay.
• 10:31
  Wildly different
• 10:33
  Abigail Boone: So before he came on the scene, like, seemingly a lot of the ways, the places that were described when he was doing these teachings, was just kinda like out and about. Right. Is that typically how they would be learning, or was it like you had to go to the temple to learn?
• 10:50
  Charlie Loften: You know, there was... I mean, there were what we would call street evangelists, There was some of that, this kind of roaming nomadic teachers. By and large, like when you were young, you would go to what would feel to us more like a classic school.
• 11:09
  Abigail Boone: Okay.
• 11:09
  Charlie Loften: And then kind of your next level of religious education would be under a particular rabbi, and he would pick who he wanted to kind of be his core students.
• 11:19
  Abigail Boone: Okay.
• 11:20
  Charlie Loften: Which is what Jesus is doing when he says, Come follow me. So you get the impression when he's going to all these people and saying, Come follow me, so at that point, Jesus is obviously some sort of known entity and having some sort of, apparently, sort of spiritual knowledge and authority in the minds of people to where he could come up to somebody and say, Follow me. He's like, Okay. I'm... I I am interested in kind of some next level, you know, spiritual discipleship and religious teaching.
• 11:52
  I will follow you. And so then they would kind of travel in this pack, and then again, they would go from town to town to city to city to speak to crowds, to kind of help more people understand this particular rabbi or leader's POV. Here's my take on it. And so it would not be unusual for a guy to walk around with disciples going from place to place, giving his perspective on God and life. But Jesus did not grow up in one of these established religious traditions and was teaching something very different than
• 12:31
  Abigail Boone: all He didn't the other grow up in the typical
• 12:33
  Charlie Loften: Well, not, he was not, he was a poor, he was the son of a poor carpenter.
• 12:38
  Abigail Boone: He wasn't in the chosen scholars and everything Right. Around
• 12:42
  Charlie Loften: It was like, the people who should be out there teaching people are all the people who went to Ivy League schools. Sure. And this cat rolls up from community college and acting like you're not one of us. You're a listener, you're not a talker. We're the talkers.
• 13:02
  Okay.
• 13:03
  Abigail Boone: So that would have been the throwaway. So he
• 13:05
  Charlie Loften: would have been religiously Jewish, of course, but he would not have been highly educated and knowledgeable enough and had the right credentials to be doing this, but he obviously spoke with such authority that he garnered followings larger than theirs. Right. And that was what made him Yeah. A
• 13:29
  Abigail Boone: So would you say that he was... This is, again, bird's eye view. Was he changing Jewish theology, correcting it, fulfilling it, revealing it? Like, what is... How is he approaching that?
• 13:46
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. One of the things that we kinda talked about all throughout the series, and this term gets used in other contexts to kind of refer to salvation, but I'm going to use it in a different context. He really is kind of a theological bridge
• 13:59
  Abigail Boone: Mhmm.
• 13:59
  Charlie Loften: Where we have this Old Testament perspective on who God is and who the Jewish people are supposed to be, what their mission is. And then if you read through the Old Testament, the history part of it, it seems like, man, did they ever really get it?
• 14:15
  Abigail Boone: Right.
• 14:15
  Charlie Loften: They seem like they never really understood. Like, really, they say God was always having to send more prophets to be like, Why are y'all even... Y'all aren't even worshiping me. Why are you... Tear down the idols.
• 14:25
  Like, the amount of times it's like, Well, somebody else had to come back in and tear down all the idols. We're rebuild the idols. Now, somebody else has got to come tear them down. And so they have a very complicated history just reading through the Old Testament. But at this point, they have a fairly established religious class, and they're not often the same way.
• 14:47
  It's not like they are building idols and worshiping false gods, but they have built a religious system that is both oppressive to people, misunderstands who God is, and misunderstands the mission that God has given His people. And so Jesus is stepping into that world where you have all of the information that you need, but you have deeply misunderstood it. And so God is about to do something brand new that you can find here in your scriptures if you're looking for it, but you have misunderstood this. And so God, He's trying to do something new over here, and so but for how do I get them from... Well, I can't just say, Hey, look at what the Bible says here, and this is how you know that this new thing that I'm doing is good.
• 15:36
  He's got to completely dismantle their system, and at the same time help them make a bridge from what God was doing in what we would call the Old Testament to this new covenant that He's about to make. Like, first I've got to dismantle, and then I've got to build something so that you can really understand what is about to happen. And it's really important to put all of this into what we'll call it's a pre Easter Sunday historical period. Jesus has not died on the cross yet.
• 16:10
  Abigail Boone: He is there.
• 16:11
  Charlie Loften: He has not come back to life. We have not reflected on the significance of that. The Holy Spirit has not come at Pentecost. These are all still Jewish people with a very Jewish mindset being taught by people who have misled them. And so everything that you have been taught is one to two or even three clicks off.
• 16:32
  Abigail Boone: Mhmm.
• 16:33
  Charlie Loften: Here is what the scriptures actually say, and if you look at that, it is actually pointing to this future thing that He's going to do, which is me. And you're experiencing it now, but you're going to experience it more later.
• 16:47
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. So do you think that kind of is an answer to people's question of like, well, the Old Testament God seems this way and the New Testament seems this way, but it's not necessarily like they're different things. They just didn't get it.
• 17:01
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. I think even still we don't get it. We we don't get it in different ways because I think I think we have been conditioned to look at scriptures a certain way. Old Testament God mean Jesus super chill. I mean, bro, have you seen this picture?
• 17:20
  He's always got a lamb on his shoulders. Yeah. He's so chill. He's got that sweet face. He's always looking to the side.
• 17:26
  He's so kind. Stoic. Yeah. Right? And so then we read a parable that says, bind that dude.
• 17:34
  He didn't have the right clothes on. Bind him up, throw him out to the place where they're going to gnash their teeth and there's going be a lot of crying.
• 17:40
  Abigail Boone: Like... Yeah.
• 17:42
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. And or it's like, we're going separate the sheeps from the goats. And the goats, they're going go to the place that we actually prepared for the devil.
• 17:49
  Abigail Boone: You're like That's pretty intense.
• 17:51
  Charlie Loften: Jesus? Uh-huh.
• 17:52
  Abigail Boone: The guy with the sheep?
• 17:55
  Charlie Loften: Right. Which has led to an entire movement of people that anytime you read something that Jesus says that seems harsh, well, Jesus didn't really say that. Because we've decided that Jesus is the ultimate chill bro. And then we go to the Old Testament and we've been conditioned to really only think about the worst stories, and we fail to see how incredibly patient God is with His people. Yeah.
• 18:22
  And how every time punishment comes, it always comes dozens of years or up to a hundred plus years in advance warning. Hey, if you don't get this right, I'm going to do blank. And a hundred years later it happens. Yeah. That's not a crazy irrational.
• 18:39
  That is a God of... It's almost like what I call, like, oh, I'm about to get in trouble. You okay with me getting in trouble?
• 18:45
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. For sure.
• 18:46
  Charlie Loften: One of the worst parenting things that I see people do is when they start counting. Oh. Uh-huh. It's like, you bet... Hey.
• 18:54
  You bet... You need to you need to go to your room right now. One, two. So you're teaching like you don't really... What I say doesn't matter until I start counting.
• 19:03
  Actually mattered
• 19:03
  Abigail Boone: 100%. It actually mattered when I actually first said go to matters at three.
• 19:07
  Charlie Loften: Right? No. It mattered before Numbers need to be involved. I said go to your room, you go to your room.
• 19:12
  Abigail Boone: Right? Mhmm.
• 19:12
  Charlie Loften: Anyways, it seems like, honestly, that Jesus has that kind of... That the Old Testament God has that sort of thing. It's like Mhmm. I am going to wipe you off the face of the planet. One, two, and he counts to one hundred years.
• 19:28
  That's the story of Noah, was one hundred and twenty years between the declaration of judgment and the fulfillment, which is actually a really long time to get your stuff together. And there's a lot of A
• 19:41
  Abigail Boone: long time.
• 19:41
  Charlie Loften: A a lot of forgiving. I mean, story of David, the worst things that you can possibly imagine someone doing, David does and is forgiven and is referred to beginning to end as someone who's after God's heart. Someone that is very special to God, even though he is the the worst kind of sinner. Yeah. It's all there if you want to see it.
• 20:02
  Jesus, not as chill as you think. God. Revealing himself in the Old Testament is a lot more gracious.
• 20:10
  Abigail Boone: I wonder if it's just like a literary difference because you're reading about these all, like, battles and being stranded in the desert and all this stuff, but then you read about Jesus and it's just Him playing story time with a bunch of people over and over.
• 20:24
  Charlie Loften: And there there is a huge difference between the worlds that they grew up in. I mean, we still think of 2,000 years ago as being fairly primitive. Mhmm. And we were, you know, we we refer to things as primitive that are 700 years old. Right.
• 20:42
  Almost said six or 700 years old. Feel But that's actually what I was thinking, like 13 hundreds, 14 hundreds, somewhere around there. You know? But you think about 4,000 ago, the how does God reveal Himself to tribal people? So there's a way.
• 21:01
  And the same way, there's only certain ways you can communicate to a toddler. Another parenting tip. It's really difficult to reason with your toddler.
• 21:08
  Abigail Boone: It is.
• 21:09
  Charlie Loften: It's just difficult to
• 21:10
  Abigail Boone: I reason with don't have one, but I see people doing it all
• 21:12
  Charlie Loften: the Right? I mean, you can maybe you need to... At first you got to get them to deregulate. And then maybe, maybe you can reason with them. And so when people, as a culture, and their intelligence and relational skills and everything as a culture was toddler level, God had to reveal Himself in ways that could seem relatively barbaric, but barbaric was really all they knew.
• 21:38
  And as time is passing and now you get yourself into first century Rome, comparatively, much more civilized. Yeah. And much more ability to, hey, let's let's kind of... You you guys are capable of deeper and broader concepts now.
• 21:57
  Abigail Boone: Mhmm.
• 21:57
  Charlie Loften: And so it's gonna come across different because people are capable of understanding more, and you see the progressive revelation that happens where it starts to make more and more sense the further you get along because how do you communicate to someone about God for the first time?
• 22:14
  Abigail Boone: Right. This feels like a perfect argument as to why I like being an aunt and not a Oh, okay. Because when I hear the completely, like, loss of logic that my niece is telling me, I'm like, I don't know, maybe that's a good idea. I just play into it. Yeah, man, try it.
• 22:31
  And then her mom's the one that has to see it.
• 22:33
  Charlie Loften: Yeah, yeah,
• 22:34
  Abigail Boone: Actually, we're not gonna do that.
• 22:35
  Charlie Loften: People, I am constantly at church on Sundays. I see, like, a three year old or younger kid running away from their parents. I'm like,
• 22:45
  Abigail Boone: Hurry, hurry, go. I'll block them out. Seriously. Because you're not the one in charge. My niece the other night was like, Maybe we pause on dinner, go outside, and then eat the rest of dinner later.
• 22:56
  And I'm like, That's a great idea.
• 22:58
  Charlie Loften: Let's go.
• 22:59
  Abigail Boone: We can play sooner. And then Madeline, my sister, was like, No. I was like, All right, well, I'm not the one that said And
• 23:06
  Charlie Loften: you and Mae both at same
• 23:07
  Abigail Boone: time. Aw, exactly. Exactly. Okay. Well, slight shift.
• 23:14
  What do you think literally happened after parables were told? Like, what do you think that looked like for the communities that were hearing them? Like, do you think it was they'd take it back to their families and tell them what Jesus said? Or would they stay around? Would someone go write it down?
• 23:33
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. I mean, if he's giving a parable and there's thousands of people, I would say that there are that many different responses to it. For people, it's one ear out the other, so I didn't really even hear that at all. For other people, would be they come home and say, Man, did you hear that story he told? What was up with that?
• 23:51
  And maybe they would talk about it, engage with it for a little bit up to probably the people who are the closest to Jesus to be like, what? Yeah. What did that what did that mean? And you see sometimes it's recorded that he answered it, but I would imagine that there are just as many times, so Jesus, what did you mean by that? And he'd be like,
• 24:09
  Abigail Boone: anyways, what's for dinner? Figure it out.
• 24:12
  Charlie Loften: Right? That it was meant to be thought about. So obviously, at some point, they started writing they started writing these things down.
• 24:19
  Abigail Boone: And that would have been the disciples mainly who did that?
• 24:22
  Charlie Loften: Yeah.
• 24:23
  Abigail Boone: Okay.
• 24:23
  Charlie Loften: Yeah.
• 24:23
  Abigail Boone: Do you think they were saving them with the knowledge that people would need to go back and reread them?
• 24:31
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. And and, you know, I think they were... They they viewed themselves as studying under this great teacher. And so, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna write this down if if for any other reason for for me. Yeah.
• 24:46
  And then if I'm ever in a position where I'm supposed to teach people what Jesus taught, which would have been a normal thing for him to ask, hey, go over, I want you... Because he had him do this a couple of times. You guys go out in twos and Yeah. Tell people about the kingdom. It'd be good to have notes to consult.
• 25:02
  Abigail Boone: Do you think they made up their own parables? And then their co partner was like, That was a bust.
• 25:10
  Charlie Loften: Imagine a bear. Yeah. And they're like,
• 25:12
  Abigail Boone: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're not as good of a storyteller.
• 25:18
  Charlie Loften: It's interesting because, I mean, Paul was definitely a very different kind of teacher. It seems like just even one generation later, a lot of the people who wrote much of the New Testament had much more of a, what we would now call a Western style of I'm teaching and just gonna I'm just now... I'm gonna I'm gonna make the case. Here's the problem. Here's why it is a problem.
• 25:44
  Here's the solution. Here's how you execute the solution. Very just kind of... And so, again, that's what makes Jesus, I think, an interesting bridge from, you know, Old Testament kind of perspective into everything that the Christian world is going to experience forever. It's like...
• 26:05
  Again, Jesus is the center point of all things theological, but just in the teaching. I've got the Old Testament prophets, Jesus forming this bridge, then to the apostles who can explain looking back. Explain in a in a more what we would consider a more classical teaching style the realities of what just happened. Yeah. But everyone got there spiritually, emotionally, relationally by experiencing Jesus, but then also through his more story based teaching approach
• 26:34
  Abigail Boone: Right.
• 26:35
  Charlie Loften: Was... It was was his style of dismantling and rebuilding as opposed to he did some of this, where he's like, you're spending time with these Pharisees, they're actually snakes. I mean, he was harsh with them. They listened to him, they got some good ideas, but don't act... If you act like them, you're going end up going to hell just like they are.
• 26:56
  And you're like, what? And so you get some of that from him.
• 27:00
  Abigail Boone: Mhmm.
• 27:01
  Charlie Loften: But his... I would say this this this composed the bulk of his Mhmm. Teaching style, these parables, and also with just kind of little quippy quippy things. Blessed are those who are persecuted for though, you know, they're gonna be comforted. You know, like,
• 27:21
  Abigail Boone: what? It's a good nugget. Sounds like a good cross stick pillow.
• 27:24
  Charlie Loften: Blessed blessed are people who have bad things happen to them because, there's a marginally good outcome that comes from it. Like, I'm sorry. I don't... You're misunderstanding or I'm misunderstanding. So a lot of Jesus' teaching was like that while, again, while Paul's was more extensive, long arguments.
• 27:43
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. So this kind of leads into a later thought, but I think that at the very beginning, you said, I think you're really gonna like the parables type teaching. And I didn't specifically know why, but then as we've gone further, I'm like, I think this is my favorite kind of teaching.
• 28:00
  Charlie Loften: Yeah, because it would definitely appeal more to an artist's brain. It requires me to engage the creative aspects Yeah. Of my
• 28:10
  Abigail Boone: So, I think that's been one of the reasons that it's come up a lot, just the image of how much they would just, I just imagine them laying on their cot or whatever they're laying on at night, just thinking like, what on earth was that? Similar to how we today would probably think, did the dice at the end of inception tip or wiggle? But like, that's probably what they're pondering on for it, like, because it's a story they heard. And so their process was just so much longer.
• 28:39
  Charlie Loften: Did it? You can't bring it up and not answer it, did it?
• 28:42
  Abigail Boone: I think no.
• 28:43
  Charlie Loften: I think it did. Really? I did. All right.
• 28:45
  Abigail Boone: Well, that's for another podcast.
• 28:47
  Charlie Loften: But The kid's faces never... He never... They never turned around.
• 28:50
  Abigail Boone: Sure. I know. So what do you think we lose? That's just not our nature to approach, like even when I've been in my small group or talking with other people, their like immediate thought is like, I'm gonna Google that or I'm gonna
• 29:04
  Charlie Loften: Right.
• 29:04
  Abigail Boone: Or like, I have this history of how I've been told this parable. So what do you think we lose going in with so much pre knowledge and not being left to like, well, for the next couple of nights, just think about it. Well, I get I get
• 29:16
  Charlie Loften: anxious sometimes watching a show. Mhmm. And, you know, we're three episodes into a ten episode season, and it's kind of... You can tell something really bad is about to happen to a particular character. And sometimes I'll just go on IMDb to see if that actress is in the season finale.
• 29:36
  Abigail Boone: Charlie, are you serious?
• 29:38
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. Like, get really anxious. Like, need to know. Need to know. That is wild.
• 29:46
  I need to know everybody's gonna be okay. And so like ambiguity and uncertainty, especially around people, really... And so I would... I'm a really good learner of you say something and it makes sense, good sound argument. Okay.
• 30:06
  And now I could repeat that back, like, on on a test. But, like, I remember, like, okay, we're gonna read this piece of literature. Mhmm. And now I want you to write a paper on it.
• 30:18
  Abigail Boone: Like, what do you mean? See, that was where I thrived.
• 30:20
  Charlie Loften: I was like, do write a paper on? I didn't like this book. It was boring and long, Charlie. Like, what? No.
• 30:27
  You're supposed to come up with some theory about what you think the author was trying to do, and then state your theory and then prove it and make an art. I'm like, Why? What? I don't even know what we're doing. It probably took me a really, really long time, and it probably wasn't until as a a middle aged adult, I started reading fun fiction books that I was like, oh, okay.
• 30:58
  And then I started watching movies, which I loved. And now I watch them all very differently. And so I begin to think that's like, actually, yeah. Like, I find myself kind of thinking about, do you think they were on about there? And there really is because you have spent more time and engaged a broader spectrum of your brain, the principles being taught actually
• 31:25
  Abigail Boone: They seep in so much deeper. Yeah. So what do you think we miss going into, like, just a random... If you suggested someone read the book of John, that they're, like, new to the faith or something like that, what do you think... Like, why is it beneficial to try and get into that mindset rather than reading it like Paul?
• 31:51
  Charlie Loften: I think I think what you have with Jesus, again, is he is just so much more relational. I think he is he is engaging heart and mind simultaneously where Paul is trying to help... Paul is Paul is... The the letters give you answers to specific questions. Reading Jesus helps you understand, really, the questions that need to be asked.
• 32:22
  Who is He? Who is God? What is life supposed to be like? And who am I supposed to be? How do I relate to this God?
• 32:30
  How do I relate to you? And Jesus kinda sets the table. His death on the cross happens, and then Paul comes back and says, now let me pull all these pieces together. It really is more like the thing that I'm doing... That I have unintentionally...
• 32:48
  Not unintentionally, but sadly have done sometimes where it's like, I'm five episodes in, and I'm reading the summary
• 32:59
  Abigail Boone: for I the next know you do that.
• 33:01
  Charlie Loften: I I get... Sometimes get too stressed. I get too stressed. Uh-huh. Yeah.
• 33:05
  But it's like the difference between reading a CliffsNotes. Sure. Like, I may I may understand better
• 33:12
  Abigail Boone: If I just knew it.
• 33:13
  Charlie Loften: If if I read the CliffsNotes. Mhmm. If my goal is to regurgitate the facts that are
• 33:19
  Abigail Boone: true,
• 33:20
  Charlie Loften: but if I'm supposed to be engaging with Jesus holistically, reading what He has to say just is gonna stimulate different parts of our heart and mind.
• 33:32
  Abigail Boone: Which is probably, I don't know if this is cultural to people in the past or at that time, but we just have such a culture of I just need to know the right answer. Right. And so you can look up anything or, like, you just wanna be accurate with everything. Whereas, like, some people, if they wanted to know who is God, they wanna know the factual answer. But in some of these parables, it's like, well, who is he to you?
• 33:59
  Yeah.
• 33:59
  Charlie Loften: Or when your counselor says to you, like, we kinda need to work that out on your own. It's like
• 34:04
  Abigail Boone: Well, that's not what I wanted. You're supposed to tell me. I'm paying you, bro. Like, didn't pay you for
• 34:10
  Charlie Loften: you to give me work. Right.
• 34:12
  Abigail Boone: But that feels like a difference in like, God actually trusts you and wants you to be working this out long term, not just to find the one answer and then check, done, I know it. Right.
• 34:24
  Charlie Loften: Because if all you have done is added something to the knowledge part of your brain, that's not going to help you when you get into fight or flight mode, when you start getting into some sort of emotional crisis. But if I have let the the truth of God really kind of seep in in a deep way, then it's gonna be there no matter what. Yeah. Because there's just some times... There's some things that you're gonna face in this life where theological answers aren't going to be enough.
• 34:56
  And a a sound theology is not gonna get you through deep emotional crises facing tragedies. And I'm not saying that you're gonna start believing things that aren't true theologically, but just having a scent to the facts of theology aren't going to carry you through the worst parts of life. But if I have really let Jesus seep into my heart and my soul, then it's not just, well, Uh-huh. God has a
• 35:32
  Abigail Boone: Now I think you're using the word holistic makes sense in that category of letting it infiltrate every area of you rather than just a set of knowledge that you have to recall. Right. It has, like, truly seeped in deeper. So it feels like I could be wrong, but it seems like we don't get into reaching out beyond the Jewish people until you get after the gospels Right. More so.
• 35:58
  You're, like, mainly interacting with the Jewish audience. So do you feel like most of the parables are more aligned or more targeted at people that, like, they're not just outright rebelling against God, but, like, they just think they already understood the right thing.
• 36:16
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. So many of them are geared towards people who think they're right, but they're wrong. There rarely is there's a character in there that is just deeply unreligious and unfaithful. Mean, a counterexample to that would be the prodigal son, but really, the character that the audience was most supposed to identify with was The older. The older son who resented the grace of the father towards the younger son.
• 36:49
  And so even in that story, the younger son really more acts like the foil where really the parable at its core is about the overwhelming love of the father and how the older son doesn't really get it. And so Jesus is rarely speaking to them, Hey, let me tell you a story about what they're like. That's just not His. Honestly, that's one of the things I've tried to model as a teacher where it's like, I'm not interested in getting up on a Sunday morning and telling you the problem... Problems the world has.
• 37:25
  Yeah. We should be talking about the problems You have. We have. Mhmm.
• 37:30
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. We. We have. Not me. You.
• 37:36
  So what... How would you describe the... Like, it seems a lot of the difference of faithfulness to God as opposed to faithfulness to your understanding of God. Of like he's getting down to the weeds of like, well, you think you understand, but really, I
• 37:51
  Charlie Loften: just want you to like know me. Here's how... So many examples of kind of... Here's an example where somebody thought that they were right and had the position of power, but in fact, actually, it's not like that they're mistaken, they're actually kind of evil. There's the people that the guy entrusted his entire vineyard to, and they mistreated his servants and ultimately killed his son.
• 38:21
  Here's a king who's hosting a party for his most loyal subjects to celebrate his son, and instead they rough housed all his servants and didn't come to the wedding. Right? So there's so many of those, you have been given this, but look what you have done with it. And because of this, what you have is going to be given to somebody else. Yeah.
• 38:50
  I mean, there was, especially in these ones that we did these last couple of months, they've just been over and over again, him emphasizing, you have been given much and you have failed with it.
• 39:00
  Abigail Boone: It
• 39:00
  Charlie Loften: is about to be given to somebody else. And as you are seeing it being given to somebody else, you are becoming resentful, which really just shows how you didn't get it from the beginning. Because if you got it from the beginning, you'd actually be really happy that prostitutes and tax collectors are finding hope in God. You would be happy, but it shows that you don't because you have thought of the vineyard that you're leasing as yours, the land that the king gives you to take care of, you've thought of it as yours, and you have lost your true purpose. And the fact that that is how he taught makes me think that he did not view them as irredeemable.
• 39:46
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. Well, was most of them that was like, or maybe we did read one that was like, the door has closed. Mhmm. But a lot of them was like, I'm telling you this, so you'll change now. Like, there's still time before the door The
• 40:02
  Charlie Loften: door is going to close. Yeah.
• 40:04
  Abigail Boone: Yeah.
• 40:05
  Charlie Loften: But we're here. We're way over here. The door is going to close at some point. Here's what you have done with yourself up to this point. Here's this new thing that God is doing.
• 40:16
  You need to repent and get on board with this new thing, which really is just the fulfillment of what you were supposed to have been doing all along.
• 40:26
  Abigail Boone: Right. Yeah. I think it just sets it more... I think as a kid or even coming into college before I had really committed to my faith and everything, the old... Or the New Testament was just a chunk of the same, and the Old Testament was a chunk of the same, not knowing there was different types of book inside And of even through this series, I've just realized, like, how many differences there are from going from Matthew, Mark, Luke, then to Acts.
• 40:58
  Right. Those are totally different books. And so even just their... I think it was the last parable that we did before this where you were talking about this isn't a delineation between people who just, like, outright rejected God. It's people that at least they claimed to know God, but who are the ones that it really was who they were or people that just said said it.
• 41:17
  Right. And I feel like that's an interesting part of the whole scope of the parables really are approaching these people who at least had the... They wanted the reputation of being the person who knew God. Right. But really, there is still a massive gap that you could point out in people.
• 41:38
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. And I think that's the beauty of reading Jesus. And I think it takes a little bit more because he is speaking to such a vastly different audience
• 41:50
  Abigail Boone: than us
• 41:50
  Charlie Loften: in such a vastly different time period that it just takes a little bit more to work on to kind of get there. But you also are just gonna get a much more diverse type of teaching from Jesus because He is addressing such a wide variety of people when all of Paul's letters are the most tailored to us at all. Gentile Christians who struggle walking with God sometimes. I'm going go to that every time. It's in a teaching style that I understand.
• 42:22
  And he's talking to people who are as close to me as you're gonna find Yeah. In the first century Middle East.
• 42:29
  Abigail Boone: Mhmm.
• 42:30
  Charlie Loften: Right? Non Jewish Christians trying to follow God after Jesus' death and resurrection. Yeah. And so that's why it's easy to study. It's easy to come up with good Bible study methods to come with it and have good discussions and how does this relate to you?
• 42:46
  Oh, it very much relates to me. Sometimes I think and act just like that. This is deeper, broader, and more complicated to get to, and so we shy away from it. And we're missing out. I think we miss out on some big picture thinking about who you're supposed to be.
• 43:09
  What do I need to think? What do I need to do? Paul every time.
• 43:14
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. But just who you are. Who are you? Who
• 43:18
  Charlie Loften: is God? And what is the nature of your relationship to him?
• 43:23
  Abigail Boone: Mhmm.
• 43:24
  Charlie Loften: You need to go to the... Because of these parables. There's a lot questions. I spend I spend a decent amount of my time speaking to kind of younger people who are in ministry, and they spend a lot of time reading Paul, and they're very knowledgeable, and they work really hard. But one of the things that they very often miss is the beauty and the depth and the power of God's love for them, which Paul talks about,
• 43:58
  Abigail Boone: not But in a very different way.
• 44:00
  Charlie Loften: Not in as powerful a way as the parable of the unmerciful servant or the parable of the prodigal son does, when he just kind of lays out here, here's what's God's love for you. Here's where God found you, way down here, and here's who God is way up here, and here's the lengths He went to, to overwhelm you with His unconditional love. There is nothing in any of the epistles as beautiful teaching on that topic as, I mean, just pick a parable at random, and you're gonna find one.
• 44:39
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. I feel like that maybe I had said this, who knows if it was the systematic theology or this one, but, like, there's a totally different account of, like, giving birth if you read a textbook as opposed to someone writing a poem about the experience. You could just, like, factually know how it happened or you could experience the emotional take of the experience that they And went that's how I feel like they're different. They're both explaining the same thing, but it's just from a totally different literary point of view. And you're going to
• 45:15
  Charlie Loften: lose out on the emotion, but again, I think you're going to miss out on the big picture of what is really happening here. You know, when we share the gospel and we say, you know, we've we've been we've been we've been separated from God, but then Jesus built a bridge in between us. And if you believe, you... Like, that's all factually true. But where in Romans six twenty three or some of these other verses that kind of speak like that do we really feel the emotion of how much that represents a deep, powerful love that God has for you.
• 45:54
  God loves me way more than what I realize. And if we just stick to Paul, it's all gonna feel very... It can feel very transactional. Yeah. As opposed to...
• 46:10
  It's just one thing to say that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. It's another thing to read the story of his arrest, torture, and crucifixion.
• 46:19
  Abigail Boone: Mhmm.
• 46:19
  Charlie Loften: It's one thing to hear how much... For Paul to say, and God loves you and has and has, you know, ushered you in to be an adopted son into his kingdom. And it's another thing to read one of these parables and realize, okay. Based on what I know about the people he was talking to, what he was saying to them, God's love is deeper and more emotive than my logical, evangelical, twenty first century American brain tends to realize. We devolve into think and do and feel and be we miss out on.
• 47:02
  And I think going back to your earlier question, I think that is the big picture of what we miss when we don't spend a good amount of time
• 47:11
  Abigail Boone: Trying to, like, sit in it.
• 47:12
  Charlie Loften: Sitting in the gospels.
• 47:14
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. So how do you think... I think you could... You may be able to say this about Paul as well, but feels like a lot of these parables someone could just walk away with good ethics. Mhmm.
• 47:26
  Like, list of, like, great. I do this to this person, that kind of person, I treat this way, always do this if this life situation happens. But how do you think you avoid walking away with another list of just like, this is how I live?
• 47:43
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. I mean, so many of them are really about the depth of God's love, who you are supposed to be in light of that. Mhmm. And I think there's just... There are a few.
• 48:02
  Right? I mean, there's few, and then there's like, well, you know, the Good Samaritan. If you see somebody hurt on the side of the road, you should help them. But even that is deeply rooted in who am I supposed to be if I truly am a follower of God. I'm supposed to be somebody whose heart is moved for compassion to people who are foreign and in some ways repulsive to me.
• 48:30
  Abigail Boone: And
• 48:35
  Charlie Loften: that's deeper than be nice. And so I think one of the best ways to do that is to do the thing that we at least tried to do most weeks, which is what would they have heard when they heard Yeah.
• 48:50
  Abigail Boone: And not just pull our own little Samaritan
• 48:53
  Charlie Loften: is only a good word to us. Mhmm. And then a Samaritan came, oh, he's the good guy. Right? And they're like,
• 49:01
  Abigail Boone: well
• 49:01
  Charlie Loften: I'm sorry. Who? Yeah. Uh-huh. We don't understand that the reasons why a ritualistically clean person heading to worship would have been repulsed by a bloody body.
• 49:20
  That doesn't make sense. We can't even come up with a reason for them to do that. While it would have... This was a... It was a...
• 49:29
  It's a parable against racial bias and against religious purity over compassion. Yeah. It's not just be nice to somebody when they're hurt. Yeah. And so I think if we're going to avoid that, we need to think about what the original listeners would have heard and then to make sure that we're not missing out on the depths of it.
• 49:53
  Abigail Boone: See, I think it's just funny. There's always that pop culture argument of like, well, what kind of government would Jesus want? And like, I guess, yeah, he has a lot of really great, like, characteristics that makes it seem like his world would be the happiest, easiest world, but that's not what he was getting at. No. Like, there was so much more to where if you actually stepped into that in the way that He wanted you to, I don't think you'd be as big of a fan of thinking that's the best option.
• 50:21
  Charlie Loften: Yeah, but even just like another one that's like the Parable of the Talents, where it's like, God's given you a stewardship and He's going to judge you based on how hard you work. Okay? Technically, true. But the premise of it starts with a master is going away for a while, and he gives one person $5,000,000 gives another one $2,000,000 and gives another one $1,000,000 and says, I'm giving you this, I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna come back, and then we'll see what you did with it. That's a lot of money.
• 50:54
  Yeah. And that means something. God has left and left me with, at the smallest amount, $1,000,000, that says something about God, and that says something about how He views me. Because who I am and what He has left me to steward really is me. And that is a high value thing.
• 51:25
  That is how God views me. You miss that if you just do the work to figure out, okay, what would they have heard? And he left him five talents of gold, and you're like, What?
• 51:42
  Abigail Boone: Yeah. An astronaut.
• 51:44
  Charlie Loften: This is the richest man I've ever known. And now these three servants who have been given, I'm guessing, just a small portion of his amount are now wealth. Also now the three richest people I know. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
• 51:58
  If we don't stop and do the extra thinking about that, then again, we're just going to reduce it to its bare minimum and miss out on real The holistic Just a real, I mean, he says more in 15 words Yeah. Than we've said in Mhmm. Twenty five hours of podcasts talking
• 52:20
  Abigail Boone: about it. You know? Right. I think the very first parable we did was the parable of the soil, I And like, right when we did that one, I was like, all right, you really popped me out of what I typically think these parables are. Never would have I considered how ridiculous it is for a farmer to sow seed that carelessly.
• 52:42
  Charlie Loften: And
• 52:43
  Abigail Boone: from that moment on, was like, all right, we're going in differently. Like, have not seen these the same as what I should have been, or I did the best I could, but they would have seen this total They would have not have been passed by the generous farmer. That would have not Right. They would have stopped.
• 53:00
  Charlie Loften: Yeah. Reminds me of the time, I don't know if I mentioned this when we talked about it, it was like, one time I was giving a Christmas message and my father-in-law was in there and I was talking about how the shepherds would not have been regarded well in society. And I went a little too far, I guess, in saying it, and he, like, he was getting offended because he was Oh, was he a
• 53:20
  Abigail Boone: farmer for cattle?
• 53:22
  Charlie Loften: He was a rancher, right? And so me sitting here talking about this, you know, I thought I was saying this is how I view ranchers, right? Don't know how I view them.
• 53:34
  Abigail Boone: I wasn't alive then.
• 53:36
  Charlie Loften: I mean, but even still, like, he hears ranchers, he feels something. Yeah. He starts talking about people who are doing farming to survive, and you're like, That guy's a clown. Yeah. And then you catch that and you're like, That really is the bigger nugget you're supposed Okay, to take away with yeah, I need to have a good heart that multiplies.
• 54:04
  Abigail Boone: But before we get there
• 54:05
  Charlie Loften: But hold on. Yeah. And then the thing that you're going to part, why would he be just throwing seed into the wind? And so you like, you got the obvious nugget first, and then you wake up the next morning and you're like, Wait
• 54:20
  Abigail Boone: a Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah. So, I think that was just the first step, and it really set the pace of like, if I can get enough outside of my own cultural context, there's so much more. Right. Is what I would encourage people, whether they're doing it along with this podcast or just doing it on their own pace, reading them of, like, really try and ask yourself maybe a bad question, but like, what's shocking about this?
• 54:49
  Charlie Loften: That's good.
• 54:50
  Abigail Boone: What's really the things that maybe would have caught them off guard? Because then you really learn something. Like, if I had never gone in with questioning how generous this guy was sowing to seed, I never was considering God's character in it. I was only looking at how's my heart? Right.
• 55:05
  And so I think map that onto every other parable we've done since of like, there's just so much more that is sitting in a parable that if you work hard enough,
• 55:13
  Charlie Loften: Right.
• 55:14
  Abigail Boone: There's a lot there that you can actually unpack that you wouldn't get in other parts of the Bible. That's good.
• 55:18
  Charlie Loften: That's a good summary statement. Thank you. I've loved it. Good. I was sitting here thinking as I was sitting here looking at our little layout here, if we're about to jump into church history way more than I've needed for everything else we've ever
• 55:30
  Abigail Boone: done The books.
• 55:31
  Charlie Loften: I'm gonna need I'm gonna need... I'm gonna have to have some notes in front Perfect. Of So we're just gonna have to figure out a different... Some sort of Okay. Addition to our setup.
• 55:38
  Abigail Boone: We'll get a bookshelf.
• 55:40
  Charlie Loften: I'm not trying to look pretentious.
• 55:42
  Abigail Boone: You need to get one of, you know, old school teachers, they would have like that extendo? Yeah. You need to get one of those and
• 55:51
  Charlie Loften: we'll Or you'll have me a lapel mite and I'll just start
• 55:54
  Abigail Boone: walking around. I love that, and I'm very excited
• 55:58
  Charlie Loften: about it. I'm definitely going have that moment because I can't right off the dome drop a whole lot of Irenaeus facts
• 56:04
  Abigail Boone: on you.
• 56:05
  Charlie Loften: And even if I review some of my old textbooks or whatever Mhmm.
• 56:10
  Abigail Boone: It's not gonna be just right there
• 56:11
  Charlie Loften: Right.
• 56:11
  Abigail Boone: I could read it again.
• 56:14
  Charlie Loften: That's fair. So, anyways, looking forward to that. Yes. I've enjoyed this.
• 56:18
  Abigail Boone: Yes.
• 56:18
  Charlie Loften: And as always, enjoy hanging with you. Of course. And thank you for being with us as well, and we'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to the Cultivate Podcast. Our hope is that you are taking steps to go deeper in your faith, that you are asking big questions, and you're looking resource for you through our podcast and any other way that we can help you.
• 56:39
  You can find all our episodes anywhere that you can find podcasts, including YouTube. And again, thank you so much for joining us.