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What Happens When a Caregiver Needs to Get Away? · The SH!T Sandwich Generation

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Susan and I planned our vacations so that one of us would always be home.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: That should tell you almost everything about caregiving.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Even when you leave, part of you is still on call.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: So caregivers are constantly told you need to take a break.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: But no one tells you how to take a break when someone you love may need you at any moment, or how to stop feeling guilty once you finally leave.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: I told Susan she should go.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Then it was my turn.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I almost canceled more than once because caregivers don't just pack a suitcase, they pack guilt, contingency plans, and the fear that something will happen the moment they walk away.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the shit sandwich generation.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Mary Beth.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Susan.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: In our last episode, we talked about bringing our mom home from the hospital with a large open wound and a level of care our family was suddenly expected to manage.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Today we're talking about what happens when the caregiver needs to leave.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's be clear.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Not leave forever.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they may want to.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Not stop caring.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just, you know, step away long enough to take a break and spend some time with their families.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or remember that they have a life outside caregiving.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we're we're not talking about like taking off, like adios.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about, you know, how to take a little bit of a break.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it it feels like that's an impossible feat, right?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the time it feels like it's an impossible feat, you know.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and we're not even the sole caregivers, right?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Dad's the sole caregiver, and he didn't really take a break, and he didn't want to take a break.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, someone always has to be available.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you kind of always have to have that.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were there for dad.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, we were kind of his We were his backup, essentially.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: But and once mom was home, dad was care pretty much carrying everything, the everything that needed to be be done.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right, the day-to-day activities, essentially, right?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then we were kind of there as the backup system, right?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to her o appointments, which were like every other uh I think every uh actually every week now.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think they were every week or every two weeks.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Every week to every other week.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was checking out out at the house, going over to the house, you know, a couple times a week just to check in.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Check in, see how things were going.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, give dad a break when she was, you know, being a little difficult sometimes, or when the physical therapist was there to find out what was going on.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: But and I was pretty much checking in every night with dad and you know, trying to answer any questions.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it was just reassuring him, you know, it's gonna be, you know, okay, things are going well, you know, making sure that the he was the wound, he didn't have any uh questions about the wound care, you know, and just trying to be uh available as as much as possible.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you're closer, so you some of the day-to-day, like can you come over and take a look at this?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, that it just little things like that sometimes he would call for.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Not not often, but you know, I think the interesting thing, Mary, is like caregiving, you know, really creates this feeling like somebody always has to, you know, be there and then standing by, you know, even if the phone wasn't ringing, I was still like, is dad gonna be able to reach me?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is dad gonna be able to reach Mary?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the interesting thing is, you know, for years I took call as as an OBGYN and I did as dur in in Durham too.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: I hated it.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Haven't you know, I mean, when you were on call, you expected the phone to ring, right?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, obviously, uh obstetrics, it could be any hour of the day and usually was all hours of the night, right?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I was really able to step away when I wasn't on call.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right, you know, so but this was like entirely different for me.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: I could not step away, I could not feel like it was okay to step away.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And well, I think that's also because you're you're juggling everything, right?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: When you're not concentrating on what needs to be done with mom or dad, there was always something going on with the work, the kids, the kids, right?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't just mom, it was that sandwich.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you know, all those layers of the sandwich.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when you even thought about vacation, uh there was so much of this sandwich that you had to kind of think about, and was this gonna be even uh possible, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was the t it was really the uh it was really the two of us, right?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, really needed to figure this out.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: So when we kind of started and and I think I had planned my my vacation before all of this h you know, the vacation it before she was.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Probably planned, yeah, planned, you know, late.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was probably planned.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I I mean, and and kind of I think, you know, and I would say all throughout this journey, it was always, you know, can and we did take the one trip together, but now it was really I don't think we can, right?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: We can't.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: We I don't think that was even a question of we're gonna go away together.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was really wasn't really can we step away apart and you know, you go away with the kids and me just go away.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was kind of a given that that now it was one of us would need to be there, and and that was I'm not gonna say okay, but that was okay.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I would work around, you know, what Susan needed, and Susan would kind of work around what I needed.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was kind of a just a given at this point because we wanted to be there for for dad.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: We knew he needed the support.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, and then and that and our kids were also pretty supportive of all all of this too, right?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think as much as they could be.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, again, they were, you know, late teens, early 20s, you know, which tends to be, you know, they tend to be focused on themselves, they're self-sufficient.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do think in some respects that did make it maybe a little easier, maybe a little more difficult.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would say I mean, easier than if you have, you know, a little I don't know, yeah, true.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, true.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think when we got to thinking about, I mean, obviously we had asked dad, you know, do you need a break?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Can we give you a break on really so many occasions?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it got to the point, Mary, where it was it was clear that he was not going to, you know, step away.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: But also it got to the point where I think you and I were like, we're exhausted between um, you know, like that sandwich, we're exhausted between the kids and work and caring for mom.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, that other layer where we were actually sharing the information with our other siblings and answering questions, that was a little stressful too, I think.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but I I think it's at one point it became clear, like, I need you, you were like, you need to go away.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you need to take this trip that you had planned.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you're you kind of were, we were just getting out of the hospital in in time and you had the the trip coming up.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you asked a couple times, maybe I shouldn't go.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think I can go.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember just saying, Susan, just go.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh really, just go.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: You need a you know, we've just gone through all of the hospital.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Just you need a break, and I'll be here.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be home.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going anywhere.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: If anything happens, I'm I'm here, I'm not that far, far away, right?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, uh sometimes you just have to, you know, tell the other person, go.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: You need to.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you gave me the permission to go.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, that's something that we don't really give ourselves.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times, it's you know, we need to, and again, sometimes we don't get permission, but I think the fact that you said to me, like, you know, Susan, you you need to go, you have to go away.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you gave me the permission and you said, you know, it's okay.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm gonna cover it, I'm gonna handle it.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think the other thing that, you know, comes to mind, Mary, that we actually did pretty well is I don't think we brought anybody else into the fold or tried to bring anybody else into the fold.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Again, some people may not have the luxury of having you know the relationship that we had and and dad, but you know, when I think about it, you know, you, dad and I were all on the same page, right?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: We knew the medications, we knew the appointments, we knew the plan of care, we knew who was coming in and out of the house for the most part, you know.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it made it a little bit easier, I think, to say, okay, Mary Beth can be there while I go away, or I could be there while you go away, right?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that that I would have felt the same way if I had to ask somebody to come in at that point, right?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think I would have felt as as comfortable again.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: We had that luxury of having us, but not everyone does.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I I definitely wouldn't have felt as as comfortable.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, at that point in time, you know, we both, you know, you do I I could see, you know, after the hospital say you definitely needed to get away.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was very easy to give you permission to go and say go.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I think when it came to myself, I I really was I was hesitant.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you were hesitant, but yeah, I was really I it was easier to give you permission rather than myself permission to go.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I I could recognize that you know it was it should you were it was exhausting, the whole process.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we needed to think we were really exhausted, you know, as anybody would be.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: But driving back and forth, again, we've talked about that.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of of driving involved and late night driving and and juggling work and trying to take meetings and phone calls and all that at work.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I think for me, Mary, when I think back, you know, the difference was I was gonna be stateside.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in the back of my head, I was like, I can just jump on a plane.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: If anything changes, I'm just gonna jump on a plane.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't, I don't know if I necessarily disconnected, but I had a good contingency plan, which was, you know, I I'm just gonna, I'll, I'll just I'll book a plane and I'll be back.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I know you can reach me because I know there's good internet connection and all that.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I I felt like very secure and that, you know, if tomorrow something happened, I would be able to get home.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe not in the timely fashion, but yeah, so I think that made a a difference for me when it was time to go away.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was a lot easier for me to say, yeah, I I can do it, you know.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I cheated maybe a little.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, you know, maybe.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was going out of the country and uh and I do remember even, you know, before she was even discharged, you know, kept thinking about the trip coming up.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I don't know if I can do this.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: What if, what if uh not to be, you know, what what if she dies while I'm away?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: How how will I feel then, right?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: What if something goes really wrong while I'm away?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I can't, I won't be able to get back.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I, you know, this is and you know, what happens if something happens while uh when I'm out and all those thoughts, you know, and it's uh so And ultimately that did happen to me.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: But that that'll be that'll be later on.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean that was really I kept, you know, what if something happens?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: What if dad needs you know something?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: What if what if mom gets worse?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: What what if again I leave and something happens, I'm gonna regret it.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then that that regret, I mean, as it is, there's a lot of things that I keep going back to and all of this.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right, we were just doing it, right?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh, well, maybe maybe they should have done a culture.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we should ask for this, maybe we should ask for that.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these are things you go over and over and over again in your head, and hopefully at some point we stop doing.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I mean, I think there is a lot of second guessing yourself when it comes to this and a lot of like fear about stepping away and that what's that what is gonna happen, right?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Which is really driven by anxiety, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: That anxiety fear, you know.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think again, when I think back on, you know, the physician personality, it's it's really one of like control.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: It is 100%, right?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I'm here, I can I can have better control of the situation.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm not, holy cow, yeah, I and and you're not gonna have any control.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And also I think there's that part of of it is am I being selfish by you know going away on this this trip and choosing, you know, uh myself over, you know, dad who who might need more of a break than I do, or mom who's who's you know, still, you know, in pain and and having, you know, the has the wound and all that.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, it's there's that emotion there as well.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And my, you know, am I thinking of only myself?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it it's it's hard, right?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: So how did you finally make that decision to go, Mary?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I I think, you know, so you one, you you went away.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think knowing that you went away and came back and and everything was okay, like nothing happened when when you went, and you know, and and I had the trip planned, right?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think if I canceled, I probably would have lost a l a lot of money.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that was part of it too.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I I think truly needed we didn't know how long this was gonna go on, right?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't have an endpoint.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think I I knew that yeah, I I needed to step away and get away for for a little while and and try and as much as I could, right, dis disengage.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we we ended up, you know, going to Peru, which is what we had planned.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: So not an easy place, again, like you said, to kind of you know get back if if something happened and you know, maybe a little easier to disengage, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're on a different time, a big big different time zone, and we were uh uh really on the move doing a lot of stuff while we were there.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a little easier to kind of disengage a little bit, but still always, you know.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I remember in the back of my head the whole time, you know, thinking of all right, what's you know, who's talking to dad, who's checking in on dad every day, I'm not calling him at night, is mom doing okay, you know?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it was hard.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about like I I think there's a point I want to make about disengaging because I do think it's very important because if you you step away but you're not disengaged, you really don't get that respite that you need, right?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing I think about is you know, there were times where I was like, okay, I'm gonna focus on work today, or I'm gonna focus on the kids today, and you know, I'm gonna be at the house or I'm gonna be at work, and that is not changing your physical location and disengaging that way is not disengaging.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to be clear that that's not as disengaging.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you went away.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what did it take to actually disengage, Mary, other than being like really out of the country?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it I'm I'm gonna be a little honest here, probably really just being out of the country and being on the move.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: We had a lot of things going on, and I was with my four four kids.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, and it was a totally different country, totally, you know, third world country.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we were just on the on the move, and I I there was it was non-stop, so it was just it wasn't like a beach.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily, I want to say luckily, it wasn't like I was sitting on the beach because I you could have been thinking.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if I was sitting on the beach, I think I would have been, you know, thinking the whole time, is this really where I should be?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: But that's uh I I could have probably done that, but you know, I think the other thing I think about Mary is you know, you left someone capable in charge, if I do say so myself.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, I I would say that.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I knew you were there.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: You weren't just handing the baton to anybody.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, that is very true.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I had a I was handing it the baton to someone who I could honestly who I could trust.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I knew could, you know, if something went wrong, would be there, would be able to knew everything that was going on.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we had that luxury.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: There was the two of us, so I could hand off the baton, but I'm not sure I I could, I'm not even sure I could have gone away if I didn't know I had that uh somebody that I felt comfortable and secure and trusted to hand off that baton.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Again, dad was there, but he needed that, he needed the backup person, right?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we knew we needed that.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Which was fine, but so yeah, I absolutely.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I knew that if something went off, you you would be there.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, but it was you know, still not an easy thing to get onto the plane and and get get away, right?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: We want to be as as kids, as daughters at least, we wanted to be available, right?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be there for dad, I wanted to be there for for mom.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it it took a little bit.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to be there for you.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I you know, I think sometimes as caregivers, we think that if we're hyper-vigilant, nothing's gonna happen.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: That is true, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: If I if I do all these things, if I stay up all night and watch the spring, I mean we do it when we have newborns, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like we kind of, but then we realize how tiring that is, so we can't watch them all night long.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: But we think if we watch them breathing the whole time, nothing bad is gonna happen, right?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's there's some of that in your own.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: If I go away, something's gonna, you know, that's that.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: If I go away, something's definitely going to happen.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you went first as the older sibling.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: You go first a lot.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you went first.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it made me a little bit more com comfortable.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, there's always that is something gonna happen while I'm away, and then it's there's gonna be that C I shouldn't have got that C, I shouldn't have done that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: So So, you know, Mary, when you went away, that actually did happen, right?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it did.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it did.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: It did, but luckily it wasn't, you know, it wasn't major, but it did.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Something did go wrong.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: But again, Susan was was there to to ha to to handle it.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Although luckily, again, yeah, dad, I wasn't there, or dad would have called, probably called me first, and then I would have called you and called you right there.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so Susan, what what tell me, you know, tell tell tell me about it.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think for from my perspective, right?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Dad called me and said, you know, I think mom might have something going on, you know.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I was like, it sounds to me like it's a urinary tract infection, which I mean, if anybody knows in the elderly can be, you know, can be very bad, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So because I don't have to go into all the medical, but they can get very sick very fast.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I said, we need to address this, we need to go to the hospital, to the emergency room, um, you know, and uh I think again, we just go into do mode, right?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I felt very confident, you know, again, for me it's a little easier because it was not something that needed to be addressed down in the city, it could be addressed locally, that was easier.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I was home, so I just handled it, right?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think if it was something more complex, it might have been a little more challenging for me.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, and I think the other thing was dad let me handle it.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, okay, you tell me what to do.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he was really good about that.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if he didn't know, he just kind of relinquished control and was able to trust us too.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and I think Isabella happened to be home.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: My daughter was home, and she's very much a like, we're gonna do this, this, this, and this.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that was helpful to me too.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, when you have somebody, I mean, and I think dad was probably tired, you know, getting a little uh, you know, caregiver fatigued at this, at this point.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I think he's willing to to kind of go a little bit more with what somebody says.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I I think you texted me while I was away.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think I did.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think I texted you when all was said and done and and just said, hey, just want you to know, or maybe we were at the emergency room.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like mom has a urinary tract infection, a bladder infection, we're handling it, nothing to worry about.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, how was that to you, Mary, to hear that something, you know, did happen while you were away, right?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was like, yeah, shit, see, I should have, I mean, maybe I could have prevented that somehow and not uh gone to had them go to the emergency room.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: So there was, yes, see, I probably shouldn't have.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So there, yeah, those feelings come come right in.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, could I have prevented it by by staying home?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not, but maybe, maybe dad would have, you know, that our nightly conversations might have picked up something earlier and could have gone to primary care instead of having to go to the to the emergency room, right?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a little bit of that.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, maybe, maybe I I shouldn't have, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I I think we both needed some some some time to to get away.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then ultimately the outcome would have been the same.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: She got treatment.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And she was fine.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think it was and and I I I think and I don't think you texted me.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was after the fact that she, I think it was after you had gone to the emergency room and gotten the treatment.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: So a little bit was, I think if you had texted me while you were in the emergency room, might have been a little bit more of a, but yeah, I think I wanted to know the diagnosis before I texted you.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think that's a good point too.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're going away, right?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: If if you say, I'm gonna go away, I'm gonna try to disengage, you know, just setting some parameters.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: What do I want to know about?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: What don't I want to know about?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we actually did that.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was just one of those things like I kind of knew what you should know about, what you shouldn't, but you could have been upset with me for not letting you know right away.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I think that's again, handing off that that baton, right?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you you you gotta a break only becomes kind of restored.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Of when you can clearly hand off the batons grip, Mary.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Give your yourself permission to release it, right?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: When you're in the race, you have to eventually give up that grip.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think I released and let Susan kind of, I knew I was in, you know, could could trust her, knew that that handoff, everything was gonna get get done.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't abandoning that person or leaving someone without care.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was truly handing off that baton to somebody who who could handle it.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was a lot easier for for me.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I did get to disengage as as much as I could.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I think it's important to know that stepping away doesn't it's not abandonment.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not all caregivers at some point you do need to to to step away.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, again, I think it's it's it's to clarify abandonment means you know, you're leaving someone without care.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Handoff means you're making sure that care is continuing with someone that you trust and have kind of informed with everything that they they need, right?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Mary, I think another thing I think about, you know, that I want to drive home is that, you know, when you're a caregiver, respite isn't a luxury.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of times when we think about vacation or we think about taking a day off for ourselves, we we think about it as a luxury.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, when you're when you're caregiving, it really is not, it really is a necessity.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think like I think we talk about that a lot, like in the world of well-being, you know, you know, burnout and taking care of yourself and stepping away.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the same is really true for caregivers, 100% because you need to keep yourself healthy.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't step away at any point in time, again, even if it's for a couple hours to rejuvenate, you are not going to be able to continue to give care.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think in our society, a lot of times we think of taking a break.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we are just doers, right?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: In our society.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do, do, do, do, do, do, do.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I am truly at fault for that.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can not being able to take a break.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you do.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of our listeners are probably like that too.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think we have to remember that, you know, those two things are not synonymous, right?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there is really a very important part of of life, is is stepping away from rejuvenating.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that's a good point, and especially for caregivers, but I think that's for true across the board for everyone.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, in caregiving, and and it's not only that emotional respite, right?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: It is the the physical too, right?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to take care of yourself, right?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to go to your own appointments, and we've talked about that a little bit, but it it really is a necessity because if you can't take care of yourself, it's that hat, it's that, what is it?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: You put your mask there, you put your oxygen mask on first.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: You put your oxygen mask on first, right?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: But so you really do need to take care of uh the caregiver so that the caregiver can take care of the patient or the the loved one.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and we're not talking about going to the necessarily going, you know, here about going to the spa or going on a you know a huge vacation necessarily, you know, stepping away or is it can be anything, right?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: It it can just be a few hours of just going to a park and taking a walk, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to practice self-care.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really important as as caregiving becomes larger in our society.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: You need to have a caregiver.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be part of the healthcare plan, right?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it and if you can't do it alone, I think one of the things is find somebody that can help you do it, right?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Whether that's a friend or a coach or that can remind you, you know, and I think we're gonna talk a little bit about that too, is you know, what are your signs that you need to take a break?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, being in tune with what your signs are.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: I can't say I'm always in tune, but I think that's really important.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: I have my aura ring.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure what my signs are.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And a respite doesn't mean necessarily taking care of your kids or or going to work.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: It really means a true respite, right?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, if the caregiver goes down, the whole entire system crumbles, right?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's fragile, it doesn't stay together.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no, uh, you know, you're not gonna, I don't, you're not gonna get a badge at the end of this.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's no medal for you know resilience.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody's gonna hand you a medal.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody's gonna say, oh my gosh, you didn't go on a vacation.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Good work.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Here you go.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Take this medal.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's it's not gonna happen.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna happen.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So just be really honest with yourself.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're exhausted and you're not bouncing back and you're sacrificing self-care, you're forgetting things, these are signs that you need a you need a break.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: And Mary, do you you know, I think we talked about that.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: What's uh what's a typical sign for you that you need a break?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I I would say, yeah.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't involve.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so let me flip that around on you.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I I don't know.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes I I do have to say, sometimes for me, it might be when I'm forgetting things or yes, something, something basic, you know, and I'm like, wow, I I'm obviously moving too fast and I need to just slow down and take a break.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I can I can honestly I can tell when I'm starting to kind of get stressed and it's really not fading away, you know, it's that constant motion of going, going, going, and then you feel exhausted and your energy level is you know, and we're both true believers in you know mind-body connection.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if your your body is, you know, breaking down, you know, it's you know, like I mean, I have a story from before, you know, where I lost my vision.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember that I was like, I truly lost my vision, but I I honestly believe that was my you know, my body really being like, you need to stop.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, and and I did, and it made an enormous difference.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: It changed everything in my life.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, or most things in my life, it changed the trajectory of my life.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say that.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's a story for another time.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: But um Mary, I think one of the things that we've talked a lot about is is having a plan as much as possible ahead of time.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, uh I care, I'm gonna call it a caregiver handoff plan.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a good way of putting it.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we agree, we both agree that there are things that we would have done differently from the start that could have made a difference and could have made things easier.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: So as we think about, you know, before a crisis happens or before you break down and need to go on, go take a break.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be complicated, but it does need to be clear.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what is like what's one thing that you think of?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think one, again, we were again, we had the luxury of each other, but you have to identify that who's gonna be your backup person, who's that one, and and you don't need mul in necessarily multiple, one primary person.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone, someone that you know is gonna be responsible and that you can kind of trust while you're away, right?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the first big one.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have somebody you trust.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, I think for me it was knowing that you knew, you know, her diagnoses, you knew her medications, her allergies, her physicians, you know, that you knew all that information or at least knew where to get it.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, ideally that would be all in one place to begin with, but I felt confident that if something happened, you knew where to find that, or it was at your fingertips.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, dad had it too.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, that made a difference.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think it it's knowing, you know, what requires a phone call to the the physician or to go to the, you know, the urgent care or the emergency room.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And some is that some of that is tailored to who you're giving care to, right?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody is is different, so they might have a medical problem that you're addressing that you need to know what are the parameters that I need to take this person to get more, you know, to be looked at.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really and it doesn't have to be an extensive conversation, just a a quick conversation.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: If this looks like this, you need or this, you know, obviously some of it is easy.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: You have a temperature, go, but I I think it's a quick conversation.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I would agree with that.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then I also think about the person that's there has the ability to make decisions or has access to the chart.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we've talked about this a little bit before, you know, having access to the patient portal so you can get results, or, you know, a healthcare proxy or the necessary phone numbers.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think all these things make it easier to go away.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: They sound like a lot when we're like I'm listening to these and I was like, oh my goodness, this is a lot.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: But but it's really not, especially if you do it like one step at a time.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Time.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna try and simplify this and provide something that you can have all of this written down and hand off very easily.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: But and I think, you know, I think one of the more important, and not more important as they're all important, but I think the fifth thing is is communication, right?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: So like some people will wanna know everything, right?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to know every small change or just get an update every day, or be contacted only when a decision is needed, you know?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to, you want to let that person know what it is that you want while you're away, right?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think I can really convey that while I was away.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I just let Susan kind of take over and and she I either was just that understanding that she knew when to contact me or not.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, if it's somebody that doesn't know that, you really have to communicate that, right?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that's part of it, Remary, is you know, if you hand it off, right?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like having a clear plan about when you want.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about this earlier in the podcast today, but but also letting that uh the other person carry the baton.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're running alongside them with the baton, like nobody is really gonna do like that.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: See that visual, right?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Win the race.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: So disqualify.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: If you have stayed involved in like every decision, you are not taking a break and you have not handed off the baton.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let's be very clear.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it only becomes kind of restorative if you actually let go of that grip and hand off the baton and you give your per yourself permission to do that, right?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, Mary, okay, looking back, would you still have gone on the trip?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, I I definitely again the with my kids, the memories were made.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't trade that trip for the world was okay.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: She was in good hands with you.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she was cared for, dad had the support.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: You took the baton and you uh handled it well.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I needed the time to really clear my head.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I and I I agree.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: I would have done the same thing.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would have done it over again.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, caregiving, I don't think is it was never supposed to be rest entirely on one person.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we've talked a lot about that, even though it often feels that way, right?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if if you're waiting for the perfect time to take a break, it it may never come.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like caregiving is one of those timelines, you just never know, right?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: You never know what's gonna happen.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the the better question may be what needs to be in place so I can step away safely.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it doesn't have to be a week, it can be a couple days, it could be a day, it could be a few hours, right?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if, you know, I think also, Mary, if if someone, I mean I'm gonna qualify this.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: If someone you trust has offered to take over, you know, allow them to help.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you don't have to prove your love for someone by being there every single minute, right?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's no, like I said, there's no medal.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: That is that is very true.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's not a medal, you know, the the medal is just really keeping your loved one cared for and giving them as much love and care that you can appropriately.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think next time we're gonna talk about another part of caregiving that is is rarely acknowledged, which is what it does to you emotionally to whis witness someone you love living with pain and suffering day after day.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, bearing witness to that pain.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the you know, the practical questions matter whether the pain is being treated and whether the plan is working, but so do you know, feeling helpless and anger and exhaustion experienced by the people watching that pain.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Seeing your parent is in that pain is very difficult.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where we we start next is what do you do when your parent is your mom, your dad is in pain and you see it.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for listening to the shit sandwich generation.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: If this episode made you feel less alone, share it with someone who is struggling to step away.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you're there right now, we see you, we hear you.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: Subscribe, leave us a review, and visit us on our website, pursue lifecoaching.com, for more caregiver resources.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, remember you're not alone, you're doing better than you think, and you really don't have to eat this shit sandwich alone.