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Books4Guys - Zach Poulter · Books4Guys

• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Roy is about half hour north of Salt Lake.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: So same metro area but out in the suburbs.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have not been to.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you gotta you gotta do it.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much beautiful nature.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: If you like nature, oh my goodness, such variety.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: So my uh my wife's been out there and she's hiked a lot, and I'm a big college football fan.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Arkansas is my team, and they play Utah in the fall of this year.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think we're gonna try to do like a like a long trip where she gets to take us on some hikes, and then I get to take her to watch the game.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're trying to figure that out.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: That'll be a good one.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta get out there.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: But no, Zach, man, thank you so much for for coming on the pod today.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm excited to talk talk with you and your work.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um man, so I'm not familiar.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to kind of kick this off because I'm not familiar with this.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't had a writer on that's been a part of this.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but talking about the the is it a competition you were in?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's both a competition and the one of the prizes is publication in the anthology.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's a little bit of both.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's a book and a competition.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's called Riders of the Future, right?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: So break it down on what it is, how you how you get your name and work in to be considered and just what it is, because I've never heard of it before.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: So Riders of the Future is probably the largest competition for uh speculative fiction amateurs, people just breaking in, so sci-fi fantasy and and some horror as well.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's been around, this is the 42nd year for quite a while, started by L.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Ron Hubbard.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when I was first finding out about it, everyone would mention this contest.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, contests, there's always a chance that there's something sketchy going on, right?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like who's where are the incentives for the people running this?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, this is a marvelous uh contest.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's no entry fee.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: All the submissions are judged completely blind.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: They don't know your your name, your age, your demographic, anything.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's just purely on skill.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Some people compare it to like the American Idol of writing fiction, right?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: So they get thousands of entrants, uh, they do four quarters, and then uh yearly culmination of that is coming up in a couple weeks here in April.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I started entering just off and on quite a while ago, probably 10 years ago, had a a couple of great mentors who said, You've got to do the contest.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: They, you know, they pay you for your work, it gets in a great anthology.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and then the real prize is that uh well for me, the real prize.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: They give you a nice trophy and uh cash is always nice, but uh, they publish you in the anthology, and then you get to go to this wonderful writing workshop.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll go spend a week out in Hollywood and they just have some really uh fantastic professional writers come kind of give you the keys of the kingdom and teach you all the things you need to know to be uh a professional in this space instead of an aspiring professional.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the bare bones of it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: So you said you've been you've been submitting your work to them for 10 years.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, yeah.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So are you submitting like an entire book or like a short story?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great question.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: So this is for short stories.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: They there's no you can be as short as you want.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you can make a story in two words, I guess you could enter it.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: On the long side, I think it's up to 17,000 words.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the story that that I'll have in the anthology is one of the longer ones, it's about 13,000.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a novelette, I think officially is the term.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you'd be talking about this is shell game, right?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is shell game.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so short fiction, and honestly, most of what I write is longer fiction.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, the contest was a great kind of measuring stick.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, whenever I had a an idea that would be better suited to a shorter story, uh get it in the best shape I could, send it off.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: And they're they're marvelous to give kind of the honorable mentions and silver honorable mentions and just this kind of light in the darkness of, hey, you're on the right path, right?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: As you as you get better as a writer and learn your craft.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, as a writer, I've completed a bunch of novels that no one wanted to read and a bunch of short stories that these guys would read, which was great.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and and it it's been uh a wonderful source of kind of encouragement along the way.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, short story venue, and I think in this anthology, you know, page count and word count are a little different, but you've got some that might be as short as 20 or 30 pages, and then some of the longer ones like mine are more like 70 or 80.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was looking uh as I was researching it more and I saw like how they broke it down into quarterly awards and in different tiers and stuff like that.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously it's a big deal, and that's why I was asking so many questions because I haven't I'm just now really dabbling into like the fantasy sci-fi space as I've interviewed more authors who have written books under that theme or genre.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm but I'm I'm learning so much because it's such a huge space.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many big time writers in it.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a lot of friends uh when I was growing up that loved that style of book.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm kind of late to the game.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's it when I saw your stuff come through and I was reading through it, I was like, dang, this is a pretty this is a pretty big deal.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's really fun.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And we're at a cool moment in just like pop culture where you know the movies have been all about sci-fi and fantasy for for years.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I remember the first movie I saw in theaters, I'm old, but was Star Wars Return of the Jedi, is like, oh, it's the coolest thing ever.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we've been going to movies for years and loving these, you know, sci-fi fantasy stories.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Every superhero story is a fantasy story, but it's really reaching popular culture, I think, just recently that you know, one of the big new movies, the Project Hail Mary, is a just a hardcore sci-fi book with more math than you can imagine.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it's great, right?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's I haven't seen the movie, but the book is great.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people are ready to to read about the stuff we've enjoyed watching for a long time.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's very cool.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's something that gets your your brain thinking.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I kind of talk about this with people too.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the reason I'm getting I'm getting more interested in it is probably due to some of like the technology and AI and all this stuff that's, I don't know, maybe 20, 30 years ago was more of a fantasy type thing, and now like it's almost more reality.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I've kind of accepting conceptually like what's possible, and and this stuff's not so far-fetched to me anymore.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how you feel about that, but some of this to me, it like resonates a little bit easier.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I'm more interested in it.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes it's easier to see the truth when you look at it from an angle, right?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like you you approach things through a parable or through a a what if, and you suddenly see aspects of it that that weren't so obvious when you look straight on.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I actually have a another story getting published in May, June in Analog Magazine that's about AI, like my one in in this book.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's more of a a thriller and a mystery, but dealing with some of these, like I think we all have big questions, like how does this actually fit into our life?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And who are we in this age where there's a machine that knows more than we do and knows so much about us.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it's it it makes you it makes all of us think what if.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's uh really pressing at the moment, what if this happens and what if the other?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm having a totally we're going off topic a little bit here, but I've had tons of conversations around that recently.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: As I'm in the technology space, primarily from a recruiting standpoint, um, but noticing how people aren't needed as much, you know, and we've gone down rabbit holes of like, okay, if if people aren't needed as much, like they still have to live, you know, and be productive at something.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you supplement not having normal income or, you know, contributing in a certain way?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And there's all these things you can go really deep into.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's kind of it's kind of freaky, man.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And well, I have my my own kids are in college, some of them, some still at home.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: I have four kids.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm a teacher as well.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, what part of what we're doing in education still applies no matter what?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's the uniquely human element that I bring that's a value to my workplace or to my career field?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And what is it that the machine's gonna do better?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And do we care?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's this thing rattling around in my head that I'll talk to my students about because I'm a I'm a band director, middle school band director, and I'll talk to them.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you know, they have a thing called a pitching machine, right?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: The pitching machine can pitch faster and better than any human.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't we use it in games?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because nobody cares to see a machine pitch, right?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: We want to see what humans can do.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: But we do use it for training.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: So where's how does this work with AI when AI can write a book or a song or like what do we still care about being uniquely human?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And what are we okay to turn over to the machines?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have the answer, but that's a really interesting question to poke at, right?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: What what does this look like for our kids when they're growing up in in this time period where this machine can do most things better than you?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you add value and how do you be a person that is happy that you're growing?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's yeah, that's they're hard questions.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: No, and I think that's the the the big question is yeah, where where does your purpose lie and and what do you want to do?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And how can you have make a difference to where waking up every day, you've got something to go work on and do.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh yeah, it's a very uh I didn't think I would think about it as much as I do, you know, like five, six years ago, it's not something that really crossed my mind.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: But every day, it just there's something about that gets going faster and faster with it.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: But and it sounds like you incorporate some of that like with your thoughts into your writing, which is which is really cool too.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think even if you don't mean to, writing tends to reveal what's on your mind, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: So Shell Game is is uh kind of a noir detective story, but it's it's really all about if someone else could take your place, right?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can't trust the face looking at you, which they're very AI kind of ideas, but through a different lens.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how do you deal with that and how do you negotiate with something that you have no power over?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, in a in a kind of sideways way, it it's not a dissimilar story.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Have you always been, and I'm I'm going back, Zach, to like you growing up or young professional, like have you have you written your whole life?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Have you always been interested in writing, or when did that and did that kind of become something you started to really take seriously?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh I was uh a bookworm as a kid.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I grew up with like this greatest gift of uh parents who both read.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought that was normal.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like we had books around the house.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And my my dad is also a hardcore athletic hunter fisher.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: He was a karate instructor for all my growing up, so I did that.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but he also just read.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's what he did to wind down is pick up a novel and read.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's always been around.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in the back of my mind, I didn't realize it was there, but I I remember having this kind of heated argument with a friend in karate class.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like he was sure that there was no one in the world who made a living as a writer except Stephen King.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that can't be true.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's gotta be other people.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, no, he's the only one.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it was in the back of my mind.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: But and I think, you know, I was looking a little at your story, my mine might resonate a bit.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: I loved reading, but you get into college and early career, and that like, where's the time?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really had stopped reading for pleasure or even for like on my own self-improvement, which is a big thing too.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like I, if it was a sign for something, I read it, but otherwise, like my brain felt fried.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was doing my my graduate degree in music at the University of Utah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, look out when you come to play them in football next year.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, I got done, I'd been doing so much writing and so much reading that I I really kind of rediscovered how much I enjoyed just words and these logic problems and and thought experiments.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And uh my master's thesis uh actually went on to get that published as a nonfiction book uh about jazz education, uh, which was great.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: But uh when I finished, I was like, I love writing, but I think I've said what I want to say in this space.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I want to explore things that are a little more creative and more speculative, the sci-fi and fantasy.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I I read a few books at that point too that kind of reignited uh a love for reading.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And one is it's so different from anything really that I write, but it's called Invisible Man by Ralph Allison.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you think Invisible Man, you think like the superhero, but it's not.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a really deep and emotional exploration of what it was to be black in the United States and being invisible.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: He tells it through just beautiful language and fantastical scenarios that we know couldn't actually happen, but they reveal something really powerful.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I was really touched by it.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: It helped me see people in a different light than I had seen them, and uh it it just made me reconnect.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there was a bit of a outside influence there helping me feel like this is a space where you ought to say something and not not like he did, because that's such a unique and powerful book.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, and it was the same time that m all my students were walking around with with Harry Potter books, and I'm like, Well, what's that?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I you know picked those up and read it.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of things came together at that time to to kind of light the fire in me that this is a path you ought to be pursuing and and directing some of your attention to.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's awesome.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're uh I've talked to a lot of people and and I know like r there's cycles in in life that kind of maybe allow you to read more than others and kind of rediscover that.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so um it's cool to talk with people who are different stages, but it's also cool because you you kind of mentioned your nonfiction writing, music focused, and then fiction writing with fantasy, sci-fi.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually talking to an author, I guess it was last week, and we were talking about genre.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, I don't really believe in genre, like I believe in think because I write what I want to write.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really want to be pigeonholed into a genre, even though it's kind of how things get categorized, and you know, you kind of almost have to be in something.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: But it sounds like you kind of have a similar approach where you just write what you're interested in, and maybe that is falling in line with the genre of of this, but it's more of just the theme you're creating with your your stories.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I tell you, there's every genre has like its own, you know, it's like a sport.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Every sport has its own rules.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you can be a great athlete in one sport, and some of that carries over and some of it doesn't.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to learn the rules of the game.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like there sci-fi has its own conventions, and there are people who will call you to task if you don't do it right.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Just like if you if you write about guns and you get the guns wrong, you are gonna hear about it from our friends who love guns because they they're passionate about that part of it.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to learn the conventions.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what's worked best for me is that I'm interested in a lot of things.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so you take ideas from outside that genre and bring them in.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: In shell game, it's so weird.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I tell this to the like the fantasy people and they just give me a weird look, but a big part of that idea came from the world of value investing, which is just another area that I'm really passionate about.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's some great thinkers in that space.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Charlie Munger had so many good things to say just about thinking clearly and about being a responsible steward of the things you're involved in.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, one of the stories he liked to tell was about a fellow billionaire friend of his who made his entire fortune investing in a single square mile.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we think of people investing overseas in lots of places, and and that just got me thinking you know, what would that be in this speculative lens of, you know, you have someone that's not investing necessarily to make money, but they have these abilities, this power to assume someone else's identity, identity theft is like a literal interpretation of what my story is about.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And why would someone like that choose to be local, like go local, right?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of being a not go for global dominion, but I'm just gonna be in this one small town.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: What would be the advantages and disadvantages?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, that that really small detail from the world of value investing is what makes my story work.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think most of the best stories out there are like that.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's like combining two different flavors we haven't thought of before or two different ideas, and it helps us see both of them in a new light, gives us new things to think about.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's interesting, man.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting the way you put that.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I just love these conversations because it makes my brain think.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Which thing is reading.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love the more I read, the more I crave, for lack of a better term, like intellectual conversation or challenging in the way I think.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you were talking about like reading a book that made you see people differently.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so refreshing when you're reading something and you're learning something and you're just you're just changing your lens a little bit, seeing things differently, creating a story out of something that you're reading.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: I just love hearing people talk about their process on like where their work came from, what idea sparked it, how you spun it into your own story that you've written.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just I just think it's so fascinating.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think uh there's a, you know, as a as a musician, there's this great uh little mantra from uh I think it's from Kirk Whalem, who's this great like soul saxophone.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I play saxophone, so he's you know a hero of mine.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: But he he he says, as too, A-S-T-W, always something to work on.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there's always a way to get better in life.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as humans, like we're hungry for that.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Whether that's intellectually better or physically, or you know, if you're into something like I am, like music, like you'd never reach a point where you know everything or there's nothing interesting.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: You might just have to look under a new rock, right?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I was just talking to my kids uh and they just kind of roll their eyes at me.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: But summer's coming, and and one of the things I love to do in in the summer is uh there's a there's a series called The Great Courses, especially a college course online, right?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh you can just dive into anything.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I love picking a culture I don't know a lot about and just put them in the earphones while I'm doing other things, and a lot of it doesn't stick to my dumb brain, but some things do, and some things are so fascinating that you have to dive in and and you do.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think you understand more about the world and people, and I don't know, not to get too philosophical, but more about yourself too.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like how do I relate to this totally foreign concept?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to me?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, it makes sense.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it kind of leads me to another question for you, Zach, because you were talking about you have so many different interests, you know, and you have a family.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And another interest of mine is like how people balance their time with hobbies and things they want to accomplish.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess what is your process and how do you organize and find the time to write while having a lot of other responsibilities and interests that you keep up with as well?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Man, I I wish I knew the answer to that.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you with the with the jazz book, when I was doing that, the way I would do that is every Thursday night would be an all-nighter because Friday at the time were short days at school.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew that I wasn't shortchanging my kids because Fridays we basically just we play through all our music, you know, end of the week, kind of fun.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we worked on all week.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would stay up all night Thursday, typing away and get up and go to work Friday.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't I don't have that much bandwidth anymore.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it is the constant challenge.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I want to do a good job for my employer.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Every once in a while I have people say, Well, so you ride at work.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, there's no way.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's so much.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you if you want to do an honorable job at anything, if you want to do justice to the the kids that walk through the door, that's a full-time job plus a lot.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so it's it's evenings and weekends, and I have the great blessing of of summer.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: My wife is so supportive that you know many teachers have a regular summer job and and I I do freelance as a musician, but that's you know, some nights here and there and weekends that it's not not as busy as I ever wish it would be.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: But there's that.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: But mostly she's been on board supporting me that, you know, this is yeah, I guess it's a hobby, but it's it's not.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's preparing for a job as a creator.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so summers and vacation days and weekends, again, then it's it's also the balance of don't ignore the family and close the close the laptop and devote real attention to them.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: But when I'm behind the computer trying to turn off the distractions of the world and and be focused for a small amount of time instead of trying to be two places at once.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I guess if I have any insight to that, it's it's mostly about learning to compartmentalize so that when I'm when I'm with my students or I'm with my family, they they get all of me and not part of me.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the same when I'm trying to be a musician or trying to be a writer that that this is getting real effort and real attention.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: And some of it just takes longer, right?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you're gonna try to do all those things and do them well, you have to understand that it might be a little longer trip uphill, but you can still make progress.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I can hear the intentionality in the way you talk about your writing.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's fun, you enjoy it, but you you have a purpose and long-term vision and goal that it sounds like you're wanting to get to with it.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Continue growing as you continue to write and do bigger and bigger things, and yeah, maybe it becomes something to where you are a full-time author, you know, and able to put your stories out and have a lot more time to focus on your writing would be the goal.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's pretty cool.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now that we've now that we've met, it's something I'm gonna be rooting for uh for you.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh Oh, thank you.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it'll be really cool when that day comes.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so no doubt it will.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: But for sure.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: With your you keep mentioning your music too.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Are are you in a band?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I'm I'm in a number of like local bands, and these are not like pop bands, these be mostly jazz and tech.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: When needed.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm in in four different groups that play around, and there are a lot of folks who are higher on the list than me, but every once in a while I get called to go play with the Utah Symphony or some other really, really fine organization.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's great.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little money, and it really is challenging, you know, if you get those calls to go to uh a recording session or a symphony thing, it's it's like, okay, now I need to shift my focus a little bit for a bit and and make sure that I'm bringing my A game.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's a ton of fun.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: One of the nice uh differences, you know, in my teaching and my music, you you do the thing, you you teach the kids, you you play the gig, and then it's over.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's no artifact, there's no permanent thing, which is beautiful in a way, but the great thing about writing is you finish for a day and there's there's words on a page, there's papers in a stack, like it's still there tomorrow, as opposed to the kids that walk out the door at the end of the year and and go on to their own, you know, wonderful things.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's nice to have that balance.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love the in the moment aspect of teaching and music and also the the more permanent, uh, you know, accumulative process of writing something and or even composing music, which I'd I do as well.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's awesome, man.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: I l I just love you have a lot of creativity to you.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: The music and writing, there seems to be a lot of correlation to just your interest and the way your brain works and just being able to express yourself in different ways.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I talk to a lot of people, they're they're they write, but I haven't heard too many that have things outside of that that they're interested in doing as well.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's so important to have different interests and have have things that are not, I don't know, just things you can do for enjoyment outside of just what you're trying to do, you know, from a writing standpoint, you gotta have a balance.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: There that keeps you a little loose, I guess, to say not so serious all the time.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I have uh this is a kind of a random attachment.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: One of kind of a local hero of mine, this guy named Don Aslett, who passed away a few years ago.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: My wife knew him growing up.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're both from small town Idaho.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Don started a cleaning company, a custodial company in college, and then took it to a multimillion dollar company.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: And he also wrote like 50 books and was like a speaker and did all these crazy things.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so he has this little book he wrote.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: He probably wrote it like in two weeks, but he talks about time management.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so it's gold.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I wish I knew the title of it, I'll have to get it to you.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: But he just talks about the way he procrastinates is he jumps to another project.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like he can tell when his interest is starting to wane and he's not as productive.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so then he just jumps to something else he found interesting.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, I'm I'm not like ADHD.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's not me.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a guy who likes to deeply focus.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: But the ability to kind of know yourself and know, okay, in the morning, my brain is ready to do this.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: But in the afternoon, I need to jump to this.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because then I, you know, like exercise or working in the art.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's afternoons for me because my brain is a little fried, but I still have, you know, the physical energy to go.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then my brain can just work on problems.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, that idea that it's okay to have different interests.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: You just know how to manage your own personal psychology to make those work for your life.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's that was really helpful for me.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm still figuring it out for sure.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: But it goes back to you talking about just compartmentalizing and being able to balance and do things at certain times.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so that all makes sense.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, well, Zach, I got I got one more question for you.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this this one may be a tough one.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you've listened to any episodes, I ask this to everybody because I'm always curious what people are reading and where their interest lies.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like you have interest in reading books outside of, you know, the type of style that you write.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: But what are a few books that that have meant a lot to you personally or professionally?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess what are some books that you would recommend to others right now that you've been really into?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's such a great question.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and I've got to say this is a separate, it's not a compartment because it's it's also everything.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I don't let a day go by without reading from the New Testament and the Book of Mormon.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And those are two things that center me and remind me of who I should be and uh challenge me to be that guy.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, beyond that, in the more uh day-to-day things, I'm currently rereading uh a great book you're probably familiar with, The Psychology of Money, Morgan Housel, which is like just marvelous about money, but also just like about our own biases and how we how we think the world works.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: I love his line, nobody's crazy.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like everybody has a reason for what they're doing.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's very much an author's mindset, right?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what makes this this person and this system tick?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Another one, I I just have to say this for the teenagers in my house because they they will roll their eyes at me so hard because I talk about it all the time.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Angus Khan and the Making of the Modern World.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Just a great uh history book.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Jack Weatherford's the author, have to check there, but uh kind of a revisionist history, and he challenges a lot of our assumptions about who these people were and and what their influence was.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's so many, those are two I really like.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: At the moment, I'm reading a lot of fiction uh by other authors who are gonna be at this this uh workshop.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: So some of my fellow entrants who are who are new, but also Orson Scott Card, who wrote Andrew's Game, has a great story in there.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just I just finished his this morning, and he always he's always so thoughtful and challenging and making you like really challenge your assumptions about what it means to be a person, right?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And Tim Powers.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Tim Powers also uh was new to me before I started getting into the contest, but Tim has some really great short fiction.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, just lots of stuff.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the guy that has five books around the house and I'm like reading all of them.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's great.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: It actually leads me to one more question for you, but uh the psychology of money that I'm glad you mentioned that.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm a part of a leadership group, and we actually started reading that a few months ago.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I love like financial type books and money mindset books and investing, like all of that I'm extremely interested in right now.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Have a lot of group text with friends where we talk about things, which I think, which I think is a good thing, like being able to sharpen each other up.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's never been more important to like figure out how to be financially educated and uh create your own strategy and all that.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I was gonna ask you my last question for you, just because as you were talking about reading some of your fellow peers, do you do you like everyone who's in this contest, do you guys lean on each other and share your stories with each other to kind of get an opinion or see what their thoughts are?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a group of people in your inner circle that you say, hey, I'm writing this, can you tell me what you think?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say, not yet with that group of people.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: I do have a writing group that I'm a part of, and that's really helpful.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Every week we'll, you know, we'll post something, everyone reads it, and then you know, in the most loving way possible, you tear it apart and say, This isn't working.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Try, you know, that's been very helpful.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's amazing how writing forces you to think more clearly.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And just like you talked about your group, like expressing your opinion to someone else makes you examine your opinion more deeply.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's been very helpful.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the things I'm looking forward to about the the conference and this this week-long workshop is having that exact same experience with other people.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I they say it's very common that out of this group of people you'll you know pick up a few more like-minded people to share your stuff with.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I I anticipate that probably will happen, but you know, who knows?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone might hate my stuff and say, we don't want to be in your group, Bolter, but that's absolutely networking sounds sometimes it sounds like a sleazy word, like you're taking advantage of people, but in in the best case, it's finding ways to help each other.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that really is what the contest is all about.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: So absolutely.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it seems it seems to have like a positive aspect to it, to where that's a big part of it.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of where I was thinking about that is how to how to contestants maybe lean on each other.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's post-competition where you get to know people and you kind of create your little your your connection and networking group that you trust and learn from.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: I will say uh I did not take advantage of this, but for anyone listening who might be interested in in the contest, there is a very active forum hosted by the contest.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so there are a lot of people on there who will trade first pages.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't part of that particular group, but there's a very active group of people who are doing exactly that specifically for this contest.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Zach, where can people find your work at?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: I know Shell Game, I think, comes out in April, right?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Next month, uh part of the Writers of the Future volume 42 anthology.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Shellgame will be in there.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I also have another novelette coming out in Analog Magazine in the May June uh episode, and that's the one that's uh deals more overtly with AI.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: We open up with a main character driving a sentient car, and there's a body in the trunk.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll have to read the rest to find out.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Say no more.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh ZachPulter.com.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's the website, and uh hopefully many more things coming.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I am blessed to have a really great agent.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: We're shopping around my first novel, so more in store coming up.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'll make sure your website's in the show notes so everyone can come find you and follow your work.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so, man, Zach, this is awesome, man.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for coming on and just talking about your work and and the progression you're going through, and and can't wait to see all of the work that you put out there in the coming months and years.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so, man, I'm excited for you, and thank you again for coming on the Books for Guys podcast.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, Chris.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was a blast.