Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH SE1:E24 - Blasphemy, crossing the line

Transcript

REALLY JEWISH SE1:E24 - Blasphemy, crossing the line · REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph

• Joel: The reason why Jewish humour is funny is because Jews have a sense of the sacred which is funny. You don't get humour without having a sense of something to battle against. They're two sides of the same coin. It's like you don't get to have blasphemy without God. And you need a bit of both. You need a bit of both. You don't get to have one without the other. life's not funny when everything is just a joke. Oliver Joseph: the aspect of the name of God is interesting because then we have a strong tradition Which I think is universal. I've never really thought about that much a strong tradition that we don't pronounce the name of God in our prayer book, which which you know, there's lots of traditions which feature differently in different Jewish communities. Joel: And so, like the page of Talmud that I was referring to, which discusses blasphemy in Maseket Sanhedrin asks whether blasphemy is saying the name of God. Is that enough? And they say, no, it's not that. That's not blasphemy. That's naughty, but it's not blasphemy. Blasphemy is like doing something even beyond, is something beyond that, is where you curse the name of God. and have to know the name of God in order to curse it. Oliver Joseph: welcome to Really Jewish your conversation about what is to be Really Jewish, big conversations on Jewish life. My name is Rabbi Oliver. If you're here for another lesson, welcome back if you're here for the first time Bruchim Ha'Bai'im. We seem to be welcoming some new listeners each week, which is very exciting. We're in the middle of August. Hopefully you're having a little bit of rest where you are perhaps a break away. Thank you so much for carrying on to listen to our podcast. This week I'm welcoming Rabbi Joel Levy, Rosh Yeshiva of Bet-Futzberg of the Conservative Yeshiva in Jerusalem and we're talking about what the line is. Blasphemy, crossing the line is the topic of today's conversation about whether there is indeed a line of what is acceptable and not acceptable in the Jewish tradition. Thank you for listening on and welcome to Really Jewish. Okay, welcome Rabbi Joel. It's lovely to have you back. You are the Rosh Hashiva, the conservative Shiva. You're a rabbi in the community here in London, Kol Nefeash Masorti synagogue, which is in Edgware. Joel: If you didn't name it the community would be angry so that's good that you named it. Oliver Joseph: There, yeah. You're a long-time friend and your second time to a podcast, which is way cool. Joel: think it might be third, I think it might be third Oliver. Oliver Joseph: my goodness, third. Joel: it might be. Oliver Joseph: I have to check my notes. I have to speak to the producer. Joel: Mmm. Oliver Joseph: Welcome back. We're talking about blasphemy today, which is a cool topic. Blasphemy crossing the line. one of the questions that I had and is appropriate to you because you are somebody who, all of the teaching opportunities that I've been next to you for, you've always taken the opportunity to take people a little bit and sometimes in somewhat extreme ways to the edge. Joel: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: And so it feels like a cool topic to discuss with you. Before you do that, just give us two words on who you are. and what you're doing this summer in Jerusalem and then we'll get stuck in. Joel: So I'm Joel, I live in Jerusalem, been here for about half my life. Family in here and kids are here. Grew up in the UK obviously and then I came to Israel in the 90s to learn and deepen my relationship with this place. and stayed. It wasn't really an ideological aliyah, it was a kind of place that it was a good place for us, a good place to be. And then we fell in love and hate at the same time, is I think, you know, wrestle with Israel, but I'm here, I'm largely here because there's work to do. not just because I work here but because there's actually work to do. Like all the hard work of like actually working out what this place is going to mean is still to be done. And it's all in the making and we need people to be here to help shape a particular society you want to shape having had a fantasy of what this place would look like for 2,000 years it seems a bit of a shame that we cock it up quite badly. So yeah. Oliver Joseph: What happens in your Yoshiv over the summer? What are you guys up to? Joel: no, well we've just finished a summer program which was lovely, beautiful people from all over the world. Came for a very intense, was a month of learning and that's just finished so I'm actually breathing at this point for the first time in 10 months. There's people around but the Yeshiva is on Benazmanim, we're really on break at the moment which is great. Hopefully, if everything works out, then the family will come over to England and visit my real homeland, is Wales, and come and draw some sustenance from the Welsh mountains and the sea. Oliver Joseph: Wonderful. Joel: Yep. Oliver Joseph: So a small plug for the conservative shiva for Beit Furtzberg. If you want to talk more about doing some serious study and pages, dipping into some pages of Talmud, then be in touch with me and Rabbi Joel. Tell us a little bit about a line in the Jewish tradition. We have a tradition of 613 mitzvot in the Jewish canon. within our tradition. Joel: Hmm. Oliver Joseph: We definitely have lots of God language in our prayer book. And in the stories Joel: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the crossing of the sea and the Exodus from Egypt. Is there a is there a line that you should not cross in terms of languages that you might use maybe somebody listening along who's not from the Jewish tradition in terms of things that Jews do or do not say? Joel: Great. So we do have a tradition of things we can't say, like the unsayable. We have some stories about people who say things that are unsayable in the Torah, and we have a tradition of the thing that you can't say that gets you put to death in the Mishnah and the Talmud as well. So in the Torah, There's a story in Leviticus about a guy whose father is Egyptian and his mother is Israelite. He gets into a fight with an Israelite and as part of that fight he ends up. vai'yikov vai'yikallel He knuckles and he Kallals and it's not exactly clear what that entails but it gets him put to death. And it's one of the Lacunae it's like it's one of the stories post-Sinaitic where they don't quite know what to do so they end up asking Moses who asks of God and God says yeah yeah it's the death penalty for that. And so whatever Nokev and Kallal is It's verbal. The Talmud explores the possibility of whether it's not verbal and they decide no, it's words. It's words. There are things you can't say on pain of death. The Mishnah calls it 'megadef', 'giduff' which is normally translated as blasphemy. But there are things that are unsayable. So which is kind of strange because you'd have thought that the death penalty was reserved for... Like we don't generally put people to death for thinking things in Judaism. no, the death penalty also runs right the way through the Torah tradition. the rabbis kind of do away with it and say that you don't actually, but it's like in the rabbinic tradition it's like the ultimate expression of the thing that's terrible, the terrible thing that you can't say. So there is an unsayable thing. Oliver Joseph: So there is an unsayable thing before the social media trolls get excited. We're talking about hypothetical death penalty because there isn't a Jewish polity that puts people to death for blasphemy or any kind of religious laws. And that hasn't been the practice for many, many generations in the Torah and I believe harmonically. we refer to death bunzies never has been and never was. there's lots of reasons, it's hypothetical that's been in Tzadip, we should clarify Joel: Yep. Oliver Joseph: that, but what then's the purpose, let's get straight to the meat of the bones, what's the purpose then of pushing people to the edge in your mind? Because I do think that you are, if you have been to a Huppah with you or to a wedding ceremony or to, or stood in one of your, Sicha is one of your kind of big teaching moments at the Yeshiva, or even in the classes that you run. the side of this shiva I think you like to be kharif you like to be you like to go to the edge and say things that push people Joel: Hmm. Oliver Joseph: I can think I've been a student of yours for quite a long time I can think of moments where I also consciously like channel my inner Rabbi Joel I think I told this story in the podcast maybe a couple of weeks ago of being at Passover said and with my cousins who are my new newish cousins or weren't even my cousins yet on Natalie's side and I said I mean the story didn't even happen anyway so who care why are we reading this talk referring to the exodus from Egypt and kind of the Joel: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: couple of cousins around the table looked at me and were like how can you say that he's a rabbi that's a crazy thing to say so but what what's the purpose of evoking that of calling to that edge of what is acceptable Joel: I think part of the edge is about talking a little bit of truth occasionally. i mean presumably the reason why you said that at the Seder was because it's a real question and what does it mean to be fully committed to the narrative of the exodus without empirical truth without that empirical proof that that is something that actually occurred So you need to say truth. You need to tell, we do need to tell the truth, gosh. So, you know, we, all of our religious traditions are in some way constructed. They are, our texts are sacred texts, but they're also historical texts. They occurred in a particular place in a particular time and... Part of the problem I would say, when I look at the world, I don't look at the world and think what we really, really need in the world is more fundamentalist unquestioning religion. I don't look at the world and think that's what we need. I think the reason why you said that at the Seder is because it's a genuine question. know, how do we stay really deeply committed to the story of the Exodus without a lot of empirical knowledge about whether that actually happened? So if you write that a bit larger, you'd have to say all religious traditions have a tradition of treating their sources as sacred. But those sources are also historical texts that emerged in particular historical moments as a result of historical pressures. And I would like religious people to live with that tension. that's presumably why you said that because you live within that tension as well. like you know when I look at the world I don't look around at the world and think what the world really needs is more fundamentalist religion practiced by people who have no deep understanding of the historical circumstances within which their sacred texts emerged and who believe their own traditions to be sui generis. Meaning They believe their own traditions to be absolutely unique expressions of the will of God, And I don't look at the world and think, yeah, we need more people like that. I think we need more people who can recognize that their own sacred texts are part of the world's sacred traditions emerged in certain contexts as a result or a response to other texts. Like, you know, If I meet with Muslims, want to hear from them that they understand that their sacred sources both function as sources of the sacred within their tradition, but they also emerged in a particular historical context. They borrow from the Jewish sources in a profound way. you know, I have a very strong desire to live in a world where people have a sense of the sacred and can take their own religious traditions really seriously. to understand what the nature of, true nature of religion is and how we get at the beliefs that we have and where our sources come from so that we can... because it's the real enemy I think of world peace and the danger of religion is when we misunderstand the true nature of religion and to get there you actually have to ask those hard questions. So I think the instinct to go to the edge is not just being provocative, it's also about living in the real world. Like the reason why at I want to talk about how... at weddings one of things I really want to say is that you're getting into the hardest thing you're ever, going to do in your life. It's that like doing, being married is the hardest thing you're ever going to do. It's a light, bright, fluffy day and everyone's happy and you're surrounded by people who love you. But it's the most complicated, the most difficult to love someone the way they need to be loved is the most difficult thing you're ever going to do. And so that's dark. That's dark. Jeez, that's like... you should have a lot of trepidation as you enter into that because it's really complicated to do that well. are you allowed to say that? Well I need to say that under the Huppah , So it's about a picture of the world where, you know, the reason why I say things which I think are difficult is because I think the world is not so easy. So you have to tell the truth, as best of your ability to tell the truth. And then the question is, well, what's the role of the sacred? What are the lines that can't be crossed, which I think is what you were getting at? Like, what can't be said? What can't be said? What's the, like, does that mean that society has no sense of the sacred and that everything is up for grabs and everything's a laugh? And I don't think that. I really, really don't think that. Oliver Joseph: So it seems like there's lots of competing parts which I'm excited to talk about. Because I think you're exactly right under the Huppah that you're saying something real and profound about the nature of marriage and the nature of relationship. And that can then transfer across to any relationship in a lot of our lives that raising kids is one... something that is a wonderful and profound beauty, blessing that we've had in our house, thank God, and also the most terrifying thing. You can kind of Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Oliver Joseph: map that across to lots of different scenarios, but there's something here more intimate, which is about God, I think, that we're drilling down to, which is about kind of a battle with God as the truest and most profound essence. Joel: Yeah. Yeah! Oliver Joseph: and the biggest fraud that the people on earth have ever come across. And I'm interested to hear you just kind of perhaps interact with that for a second of how we, of how a religious person, and we're all talking Really Jewish today, like what's Eeally Jewish about that interface between like fraudulence and truth and living in that tension. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you said that very clearly. Look, I don't, when I was in Yeshiva, there was quite a lot of energy that went into Oliver Joseph: You still had oil lamps and all that kind of stuff. Joel: trying to convince us, clean little boys, that Judaism was the bee's knees. Judaism was like, Judaism was the direct revelation of God and it was like, and it's unique and to show all the uniquenesses of Judaism and how different it is from other traditions and how one should follow it because of its uniqueness. And all those arguments left me completely cold. Completely cold. I wasn't interested in that at all. I'm really, really interested in the ubiquity of religion. I'm interested in how... it how every culture that has ever existed has a notion of the sacred that it seems to be entwined with the human condition and I think it's it's almost inconceivable that humans couldn't live without a sense of the good the ultimate good and purpose and God as an expression of that is is a way of articulating that like humans humans didn't start to use language and just use it for practical purposes, they started to use language and began to tell stories about ultimate purpose and the right way to be in the world. they immediately started talking about that in terms that used divinity as a way of articulating the idea that there is really ultimate purpose. that appears to be something that we can't live without, I would say. But it also, as you say, there's a degree of hubris in that. It's funny. There is a joke in there that, you know, that I have the capacity to discern ultimate truth and lead my life according to it. There is something funny about that. one of the reasons, like humor, is the flip side of the sacred. The reason why Jewish humour is funny is because Jews have a sense of the sacred which is funny. You don't get humour without having a sense of something to battle against. They're two sides of the same coin. It's like you don't get to have blasphemy without God. And you need a bit of both. You need a bit of both. You don't get to have one without the other. life's not funny when everything is just a joke. In our tradition, that's Amalek. He's a late San. He thinks that nothing means anything. That's the way Amalek is portrayed. in some classical sources. He's like the person who thinks that there is nothing sacred, nothing matters. If I kiss you or hit you makes no difference. Like if you think about whether you help someone on the road or not, or whether you hit them, on an ultimate level it makes no difference. That's amalek, it makes no difference. It's all just do what the hell you want. So if you don't have any sense of sacred purpose, then that's the dissolution of everything that humanity works for. And there's no quest for goodness. There's no quest to be good. Humans need to have a quest to be good. There's nothing as terrifying as human beings who have literally disconnected themselves from any sense that life is about a quest for good. Like all guilt. Wow, you know, like think about the things I feel guilty about in my life. Why do I have a sense of guilt about things? Because I've done bad things, but the very notion that there can be a sense of guilt is based on the idea that I do think it makes a difference how you behave. If you hurt people, you hurt them forever in some way. And so we should feel bad about that. Well, I want to feel bad about that and I want other people to feel bad about that. But that's predicated on the notion there is some idea of good and bad, which can orient our lives. If you dissolve that, you dissolve everything. But there's hubris in that as well. There is pride in that as well. There is something weird about thinking that we can construct a life of purpose and meaning. blasphemy comes as it's like you know it's the flip side. It's the flip side. In Leviticus chapter 24 which is the biblical story that talks about blasphemy, there's kind of two utterances. One is 'Ish Is ki-yi'kalel Elohav V'nasa Het'oh' Every single person who curses his own God bears a sin. And then there's the, if you curse the Jewish God, then you're living within a Jewish polity. then you're subject to our discipline because we in Israel are trying to create a polity around the sense of the sacred to do with 'Yud Hei Vav Hei' But the verse also says, Ki Yekele Lo Havan HaSach Eto meaning every single human being has to have a sense of the sacred and they shouldn't curse that. They shouldn't like it. You bear sin if you're a human being living anywhere in the world. If you disgrace what's held sacred in your society. In the Vitticus chapter 24, every human being, every human being has to have a sense of the sacred. And so you unravel that at your peril. I'm, look, I think Britain is struggling around what it holds sacred now. It's part of the, it's it's part of the same question of what binds us together or what is, what is British society. And so part of the question of what binds us is what we hold sacred. It's part of the same question. And yeah, now what lies at the heart of this thing? What's the thing that we all stand in? in the presence of? What's the thing that we don't assail? What's the thing that we take seriously? Oliver Joseph: this feels like the semi different as we get into It feels like there's so many different corners that the bit that I want to go to is Well, I want to go to the name of God and I want to also tell a joke because you mentioned humor before But the aspect of the name of God is interesting because then we have a strong tradition Which I think is universal. I've never really thought about that much a strong tradition that we don't pronounce the name of God in our prayer book, which you know, there's lots of traditions which feature differently in different Jewish communities. So you might go to some of the Middle Eastern communities or Indian communities, you might go to Eastern European communities, and there might be different notions of that in the Jewish tradition, but a universal tradition in Jewish practices, we don't mention the name of God, the name Yud Hei Vav Hei, the four letter name is not pronounced. That seems to be a symbol of the mystery of God framed there. Joel: Hmm. Oliver Joseph: which is counter to what you're describing in terms of having some unified sense of what we're hitting for, of what we're aiming for. There seems to also be, you know, so there's 613 qualified mitzvahs, which include God mitzvahs and how we revere God and how we don't talk smack about God. But there's also at the core of that tradition, a great and profound mystery where we, you know, the Rambam says we can't say anything positive about God, can only describe God in God's negative, in the things that God is not. So, Joel: Yeah, that's not a contradiction. Oliver Joseph: go on. Joel: Well, because the sacred is screened. It's like the Wizard of Oz. You don't want to see what's behind the curtain. You mustn't see what's behind the curtain. Like, so the name, not pronouncing the name is clearly a kind of screen. It's a 'sagi nahor' It's like a euphemism. Everything is hidden. everything is, the ultimate sacred postulate is hidden. And that's the way it should be because the sacred doesn't bear taking it into the light. And so, like the page of Talmud that I was referring to, which discusses blasphemy in Maseket Sanhedrin asks whether blasphemy is saying the name of God. Is that enough? And they say, no, it's not that. That's not blasphemy. That's naughty, but it's not blasphemy. Blasphemy is like doing something even beyond, is something beyond that, is where you curse the name of God. and have to know the name of God in order to curse it. And then there's a particular formula you have to say in order to be liable for the debt. They make it basically impossible for anyone to do blasphemy because it's just, it's really arcane. It's like, it's a very difficult thing to actually do. they make the actual act. of course, like God, God has to be unassailable in a way. So you hide it you hide it and you hide it and you hide it. The sacred core resides somewhere else. The anthropologist of religion, Roy Rappaport, who I love very much, talks about ultimate sacred postulates and says that in every culture the ultimate sacred postulate is never empirical. It's not something you could ever test. There's no test in the world for Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad There's nothing It has to be incomprehensible at some level. It's not like a table that you can take out and examine and look at and know what it means and use it. It's it's much more reverent than that and much more hidden. So society, I think society needs the sacred. I think society needs a sense of the sacred, it needs the sacred. But it has to also make sure, like as you said, I think you said very clearly that Judaism wants to have its cake and eat it, it wants to have a sense of the sacred, but also make sure that we never really transgress that transgression to the point where we might actually want to be really furious with someone. So like, we don't really do like your blaspheming because the Talmud makes it clear that no one like, just can't do it. No one knows enough about Judaism to do it properly. So we sort of hide the possibility of transgression, of that particular form of transgression. there is, like to lead a life of religious piety involves revolve circling around and taking seriously the ultimate sacred postulates of the tradition. Like you know we recite the Shema with reverence, repeatedly that's one of the basic rhythms of a Jewish life is to say that twice or four times a day and so we do that, that rhythm of a ritualized life of reverence is what creates sanctity. Oliver Joseph: Shema Yisrael with the name of God inside it. Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad with the Joel: with the name. Oliver Joseph: name and the description of the oneness of God inside that one line. Joel: But we never, as you say, we don't actually say the name when we say it. We're too reverent, we step back from the curtain. We don't actually say it, we don't pronounce it. Oliver Joseph: So you mentioned humor because I'm going to get a joke in here just because it's a first for everything on Really Jewish. There's the story of Yosa'leh on the desert island and Yosa'leh is waiting and waiting to be rescued on desert island. Finally after many years he's rescued and he says and the sailor comes on land and said Yosa'leh what have you built? And he's like well I've lived under this palm tree for the last seven years and three months. He says, but what are these two magnificent structures that you built on the island? He says, this is the synagogue that I dove in three times a day. It's my Jewish home, it's my synagogue. And he's like, what's the other synagogue that you built? And he's, that place I would never step foot in. And he spits on the ground. Joel: Right. Oliver Joseph: Now, it hadn't occurred to me that perhaps that is the description of God, but there's something there about kind of the hubris, the kind of the assumption that that Yoseler might know. which synagogue he should never step foot in, which Joel: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: synagogue he should doven in. And just one more story, because maybe you can majestically weave between the two, but Joel: Hmm. Oliver Joseph: it also occurs to me that we're recording this, this is coming out in a couple of weeks, but we're recording this in kind of the aftermath, we're still in the month of Av, in the aftermath of Tisha B'Av And I'm thinking of the story of Rabbi Akiva, I can't mention the three other rabbis, but traveling in the desecrated. temple in the years after the second destruction. Joel: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Oliver Joseph: And they see foxes playing Joel: Hmm. Oliver Joseph: in the temple ruins. And the rabbis weep. So the reason that the story is catastrophic is because there are wild animals, I mean like playing, fornicating, whatever it is that they're doing in the temple sanctuary and the rabbis weep and Rabbi Akiva laughs. And the reason why Rabbi Akiva laughs is also interesting because he laughs because he sees the possibility of the endurance of the tradition that he represents and therefore somewhere Joel: you Oliver Joseph: other even at the moment of greatest catastrophe He is still triumphant and obviously the other three rabbis who also G'dolei Ha'Dor also significant rabbis of the generation Rabbi Yehoshua, Rabbi Eliezer ben Arieh maybe forgive me for misquoting and But the description, why the story I think is relevant here is the description is of the place where divinity resides being desecrated. So there's also somehow here a kind of interface with the possibility of desecration, even the description of holiness. So to turn that into a question, between those two Joel: Hmm, that's nice. Oliver Joseph: stories, we also somehow have the edges of divinity. Like again, kind of the aspects of the possible limitations of the divine in the tradition. That's not blasphemy, but it's certainly finding that edge, which I think the rabbis are often trying to search for. In the story of Shmuli on the desert island, it's Amara, it's kind of the regular kind of folk. finding his own presentation of that on the desert island if you want to drush the joke in the story of Rabbi Akiva and the rabbis going up to Jerusalem which may or may not ever happened actually, possibly happened. They are also exploring the edge of Joel: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: the holiness that 'Yud Hei Vav Hei' they say Shema Yisrael to every morning like you said. Joel: Yep. So those are two interesting things that you've brought together. The scary part of story of Shmuli on the Desert Island is the question about whether holding something sacred makes me hostile to something else. Oliver Joseph: Mmm. Joel: like whether my commitment to holding something sacred automatically makes me a person who brings hostility into the world. Oliver Joseph: That's the joke. Joel: and I think some young people. That's the joke, yeah. So I think it's almost like I have to have the hostility. I just can't live without it. I can't live without hating the other folk. So I have to build a synagogue for me to loathe. Because part of the fuel in my fire is my hatred for the, my love for my own way and my hatred of the other path. And that's what sacredness is in some way is like the creation of... love for that which is in the inside and hatred for that which is on the outside. And I think some young people in our world look at that and they say well if that's what religion is about I don't want any part of it. That's a good reason not to be religious. Like there's a study that came out recently in Israel that said that the more religious you are in Israel the more likely you are to be like extremely right-wing. pretty depressing. Like hostility to non-Jews. I used to wear a you know, I used to wear a half kipa all over because of the kind of tension between the inside and the outside used to be unbearable for me. once being, you know, I was wearing my, I cut all my kipa in half and there was this kid in a supermarket who was packing bags. Young, a young Sephardi kid, like little kids, probably about 14, 15. We like to employ underage children in Israeli economy. So he said like what does that mean? are you wearing a half kippah? And I said like you what do you think it means? And he said and he thought for a minute and then he said... You're like someone who keeps the commandments but likes Arabs. And I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, Oliver, because he's because in his mind is naive out of the mouth of babes. Like in his mind to be Shomeim, it's what means to hate Arabs. They're two sides of the same coin. That's the synagogue I don't pray in. that's the dark side of revealed religion. Wow that's the dark side, that's the Darth Vader of revealed religion is this, is the sense that you can't have the sacredness without the desecration. And I think a lot of the religious world looks like that, that's the way that religious people kind of think about it. If I'm right then you're wrong, it's a zero-sum game. But in truth it really, really isn't like that. I really profoundly believe that it isn't like that. That is not the way. That's not how religion functions. It comes from a category error. That way of thinking comes from a category error. It comes from thinking about your own traditional empirical terms. Oliver Joseph: So then I'm going to push you to the next story about the... Joel: It comes from this understanding of what religion is and how it functions. And we have to change religion to the point where the more religious you are, the more compassionate you are, the more loving you are, the more open you are to dialogue. Oliver Joseph: So say two words then about the foxes in the Holy of Holies, what that represents. Because that also seems to be in the context of this story, an interaction with divine. Joel: Yeah, I'm not sure that's interesting. it's interesting that you made that as... Yeah, it's interesting that you brought that association. I like it. That's, look, I think the argument that they're having is, you know, is God really assaultable? is God really assaultable? Is what I hold sacred something that could be taken away? And to see the desecration of the most sacred site in Judaism causes the rabbis to cry, but Rabbi Akiva sees through that and in a way he sees that the Oliver Joseph: non-assaultable. Joel: really sacred is intact. Yeah it's Oliver Joseph: Rabbi Joel. Joel: not really... you can't really... you can't destroy God. mate. If religion is going to play a positive role in the 21st century when we actually meet each other, then we've got some serious work to do, some serious meaty work to do, some serious thinking to do, and it does involve a deepening understanding of the sacred, what it means to commit to the sacred. We're nowhere near there yet. nowhere near there yet and it feels at the moment like we're caught in this awful position where it's either a fundamentalist approach to religion or nothing and we have to abandon the sacred altogether. And there is a path where you can have your cake and eat it but it requires a lot of thinking about and a reframing of what religion is about. And that challenge might be one of the most significant challenges for our species in the 20th century as we move from a kind of isolated understanding of religion to a connected understanding. If we're gonna survive, we might just end up killing each other. But if we're not gonna kill each other, we need to repass how we understand what religion is and how it functions. And that is a lot of work to do. Oliver Joseph: Thank you Rabbi Joel so much for teaching us and being with Joel: Yeah, cheers. Oliver Joseph: us and Hatzlacha only good things. Thanks so much. Joel: Thank you. Yep. Oliver Joseph: Thank you for listening to Really Jewish. That was a great interview with Rabbi Joel. Listen, that description of the line between the sacred and that which is profane, the line between that which we can say and that which we cannot, I think was a really fascinating interaction that on one level we have the essence of the divine, the divine name and the Jewish tradition. the mystery of God on the other end of the spectrum, might have that which we say against religion, it's all rubbish, it's all made up, it's fictitious, it's kind of a little bit of what Joel was alluding to, like it's in relationship with human desire and human need, it's utilitarian to some of the comments online, like it's... religion is there to control the people like some of those the critique the kind of edges of what we might appreciate as religious understanding. think somehow his description that that's where we need to go between those two places where we need to go both a sense of reverence and sanctity in the world and a sense of the edge of that reverence and the way in which there might be multiple aspects of the sacred in the world and not just within your tradition. is important and the bits like, you there's often pain in really Jewish in this podcast, the aspect of the kid in the supermarket who spouts racist ideology is painful. You know, it's comedy, but it's also exceptionally painful. It's comedic. That was hard listening, but also profound learning. And that's why we have Rabbi Joel on the podcast, hoping in the year ahead to having on more regularly. We had a lot of tech stuff going on today. The internet was calling out. So hopefully the recording is good for you where you are. Please always send us feedback. What is good? What is bad? It's really wonderful to have the comments online onto some of our clips. And it's also just really good to hear about how you're experiencing the podcast. So we had a slot at the very beginning called Feedback-im where we used to report on some of what some of our listeners are saying. Most of the feedback that I get is verbal. So I probably need to do better to for people to report back to me and then to share some of the feedback that we get on the podcast here. Thank you for listening to Really Jewish. Thank you for Oi Va Voi for our musical intro and outro. You can listen to their single Back to My Roots available on streaming platforms. Thank you to Sophia, our producer editor, who's working hard on these podcasts. If you like this content, please share online, like where you listen to your podcasts. Our podcasts give us a five star rating. Send this to a friend, do the same on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook. And please, if you'd like to support this podcast, log on to our Patreon, become some of our first supporters or discuss with me directly how you can financially support or otherwise our wonderful Really Jewish podcast. We've got some great guests coming up as we mark the Chagim the Jewish High holidays. If you're a fly on the wall listener trying to understand and learn about Jewish life, we're approaching the Jewish High holidays, the big festivals of the year, and we'll have some good content around. what those festivals are and how to understand them. Tune in next week for Really Jewish with Oliver Joseph.