Latest / Pod Save America / Trump's A+++++ Affordability Message

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Trump's A+++++ Affordability Message · Pod Save America

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• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Dan Pfeiffer in studio.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: For this momentous pod.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, how lovely. It's great when Dan comes to town.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: We're all in our best behavior. On today's show, we're
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: going to talk about how Trump is ending 2025 in
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: a much weaker political position than he started. And what
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: that means is we head into a big election year.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: We'll also talk about the big wins Democrats scored in
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Tuesday's elections and look ahead to the midterms, specifically the
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Democratic primary for Texas Senate in March. which will pit
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Jasmine Crockett against James Tallarico. Then we'll answer the question
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: that's probably been on no one's mind, which women-hating Nazi
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: influencer is actually a virgin? A segment that will be
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: followed by my conversation with a very serious member of Congress,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Adam Smith, who's the top Democrat on the House Armed
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Services Committee and undoubtedly psyched that he agreed to appear
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: on this show. But let's start with the man who
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: wants struggling Americans to know that He sees you, he
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: hears you, and he feels your pain. President Donald Trump,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: who launched a much-hyped and anticipated affordability blitz this week,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: where he humbly acknowledged our economic reality and pledged to
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  Speaker 2: fight harder for the people who sent him back to Washington,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: hears Trump speaking to Politico's Dasha Burns and then at
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: a rally in Pennsylvania.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: I wonder what grade you would give your economy.
• 2:48
  Speaker 5: A-plus. A-plus.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, A-plus, plus, plus, plus, plus.
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  Speaker 6: The chief of staff, and she's fantastic, she said, We
• 2:56
  Speaker 6: have to start.
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  Speaker 4: Campaigning, sir.
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  Speaker 1: I said, I won.
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  Speaker 4: What do I have to do?
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  Speaker 2: Already?
• 3:02
  Speaker 6: They said, we have to win the midterm.
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: It's a hoax.
• 3:06
  Speaker 6: They use the word affordability, and that's their only word.
• 3:10
  Speaker 6: They say, affordability. And everyone says, oh, that must mean
• 3:15
  Speaker 6: Trump has high prices. You know, you can give up
• 3:18
  Speaker 6: certain products.
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: You can give up pencils.
• 3:21
  Speaker 6: You don't need.
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  Speaker 4: $ 37 for your daughter.
• 3:24
  Speaker 6: Two or three is nice. But you don't need $ 37.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: More Trump. Get him out on the trail, Dan. What'd
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: you think? What'd you think of that performance?
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: I'm going to send my message directly to Susie Wiles.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Why don't you have a staff? This was perfect. No notes,
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: make no changes. The hoax thing, it works.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Hoax things works.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: It doesn't get enough attention, but rationing is a good
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: political strategy. More telling people how much of things, certain
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: things they should have. Maybe get into what they should
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  Speaker 3: eat or not eat. Maybe tell them to eat cake,
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: as an instance.
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  Speaker 2: Why do you think he keeps bringing up the dolls?
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  Speaker 2: He's got a real fixation with the dolls. This is
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: like the third time he's done a ration the dolls message.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's so many other.
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  Speaker 2: I feel like he's used the number 37 before, too.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he's... This originally was triggered by the
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: report about increased toy prices for the holidays, and he just,
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: you know, he keeps going back to the well. He
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: doesn't have a lot of new material here.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: And the pencils? We're rationing pencils? Do people use pencils still?
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: They do, John.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: I know the kids don't read anymore, so I wasn't
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: sure if they used pencils. I thought pencils went away
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: a long time ago.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. I mean, my second grader
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: uses pencils.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: I guess Charlie and Teddy use crayons.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Crayons.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: How many crayons do you get? Are we making those here?
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  Speaker 2: One per color of the rainbow. Anything we're not making here,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: you don't get anymore. Right.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: I don't think we make crayons here.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: It is wild that the man who just fired an
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: architect for his ballroom because he couldn't make it big
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: enough and fast enough as he's like gold leafing everything
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  Speaker 2: in the White House is telling people they don't need
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  Speaker 2: more than three dolls. Three dolls maximum.
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: If you were trying to find the best message to
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: lose an election, this would be it.
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  Speaker 2: I just, it's wild. Clearly he's excited to be there.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: You can tell.
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  Speaker 4: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: He's excited to be on this affordability tour. I wonder
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: how many more we'll get. It's December 11th. It's like
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: too soon. I wish the affordability tour had started In
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: like September of 2026. That's what I would, I wish
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  Speaker 2: we could get this event there because no one's going
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  Speaker 2: to remember this by then. But like, do you think
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: it changes?
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  Speaker 3: I think we'll get more.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: You think we'll get more?
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  Speaker 3: I don't think it's going to get better. I don't
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  Speaker 3: think he, I do not think he can give a
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  Speaker 3: compelling affordability message. I think he is psychologically, constitutionally incapable
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  Speaker 3: of doing that. Because it requires him to admit that
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  Speaker 3: prices are high. To admit prices are high means to
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  Speaker 3: admit fault. He has never admitted fault in his life.
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  Speaker 3: He's not going to start. Now, there aren't a lot
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  Speaker 3: of 80-year-olds who all of a sudden develop introspection.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: One other soundbite from the rally really hit home for me.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Can you guys play the clip?
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  Speaker 6: I haven't read practically anything off this stupid teleprompter. And
• 6:08
  Speaker 6: then my speechwriters, they're getting awards for some of the
• 6:11
  Speaker 6: finest speeches, and I haven't even read the.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: And the award for the finest writer in the history
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: of speechmaking... Ross, where are you, Ross?
• 6:22
  Speaker 6: Are you here, Ross?
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  Speaker 1: First time I've ever introduced him. Ross, get over here.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: I got a very low-key guy.
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  Speaker 6: So shy, I can't believe it.
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  Speaker 2: There's a lot to unpack there, Dan.
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  Speaker 4: There is.
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  Speaker 2: First of all, what speech writing awards are his speech
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: writers getting?
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  Speaker 3: Are you just jealous because you never got one?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, where was my fucking award? None of us got
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  Speaker 2: any award. Maybe Lovett got it. Maybe I didn't know.
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  Speaker 4: He didn't.
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  Speaker 2: Also, I cannot imagine... Anything worse than being at a
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  Speaker 2: rally with Barack Obama where he introduced me because he
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  Speaker 2: wanted to let everyone know that he hasn't read anything
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  Speaker 2: on the prompter, never does, and he doesn't understand why
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  Speaker 2: speechwriters are getting awards. Because that's the kind of stuff
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  Speaker 2: he said behind the scenes. That's right. Not publicly. That
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  Speaker 2: was wild. Poor Ross, whoever you are.
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  Speaker 3: And you know what? I have no sympathy for Ross.
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  Speaker 6: No.
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  Speaker 2: Do we think that Ross is actually writing any of
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: these speeches or they just go through the Stephen Miller
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  Speaker 2: LLM and then they get onto the teleprompter and then
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Trump sort of ignores the boring shit, which is the
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: stuff that Susie Wiles wants him to say. Some of
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: the more fashy sounding shit, which is what Stephen Miller
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  Speaker 2: puts in there. And then he just does the weave.
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  Speaker 3: Is it actually painful that Ross, whoever he may be,
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  Speaker 3: gets this award the same week we were snubbed for
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  Speaker 3: Golden Globe?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah. Wow.
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  Speaker 2: Wow. We're really getting hit hard this week.
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  Speaker 3: It's a tough week for us.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Back in Washington, Trump did get another, he got a
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: little present. He got another rate cut from the Fed,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: but it obviously wasn't enough for him. He said the
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  Speaker 2: quarter point cut should have been twice that size and
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: called his Fed chair, Jerome Powell, a stiff. Man, he appointed.
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  Speaker 2: On Thursday, he posted another whiny complaint blaming the American
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  Speaker 2: people's dissatisfaction with the economy on the American people. always
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: smart politics. Here's the post, quote, when will I get
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  Speaker 2: credit for having created, with no inflation, perhaps the greatest
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  Speaker 2: economy in the history of our country? When will people
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  Speaker 2: understand what is happening? When will polls reflect the greatness
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  Speaker 2: of America at this point in time and how bad
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: it was just one year ago? I'm sure it was
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  Speaker 2: just a coincidence that the statement came right after the
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  Speaker 2: release of a new AP poll that has Trump's overall
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  Speaker 2: approval at just 36%.
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: Oof.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: And his approval on the economy at just 31%, that
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: is the lowest it's ever been in either of his
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: two terms as president. 67% disapprove of his handling of
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: the economy. Obviously, we don't like to put too much
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: stock in a single poll, but we're reading this one
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: because it's fun. And also, it is roughly in line
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: with most of the polls we're seeing right now. I
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: think his average overall approval in the average of all
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: the polls is 42%, so not much higher. What do
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: you make of it? What do you make of this poll?
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  Speaker 2: And is Trump in serious trouble here or is this
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: just copium?
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  Speaker 3: This is not copium, John.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: It is not.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: Like even if you were to say that this poll
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: is a bit of an outlier, that's a little worse
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: for Trump than the other ones, all the polls are
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: telling the same story. Trump is losing political altitude fast.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: Voters are very unhappy with the economy. They're unhappy because
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: prices are high. They think Trump is not only not
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: lowering the prices, they fully believe he is raising them.
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: They correctly believe that because of tariffs.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: And they see him focus on everything else other than
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: the number one issue, right? CBS had this poll a
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: couple of weeks ago, which asked people, what do you
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: want Trump to focus on most?
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: They said interior decorating.
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: They said high prices. Interior decorating was a distant 900th.
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: And they asked him, what do you think he's focused
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  Speaker 3: most on? What came in last there?
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  Speaker 1: Inflation.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: And so he's in a very, very bad spot here.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: And he is less popular than Biden was at that point.
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  Speaker 3: And much less popular than Obama was at this point.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: But all of those polls keep comparing Trump to this
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: point in the first term of other presidents, because we
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: keep using this as a first term. The real comparison
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: point is second term. And the comparison point here is
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: George W.
• 10:28
  Speaker 6: Bush.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: And right about this time, George W. Bush takes a
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: massive nosedive and never comes back. And I think Trump's
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: in real danger of that because he has no interest
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: in solving the problem that people care most about and
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: really no ability to do so. And he's not going
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: to benefit from this looming reelection campaign that will re-coalesce
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: his coalition, be out of opposition to the other side.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Or re-energize him because he doesn't have his presidency on
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: the line.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: Or his livelihood, or his freedom, as he did last time.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Nor does he fully understand clearly how bad it is. Though,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know, that Thursday post where he's like, when
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: are people going to get it? It might be starting
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: to creep in that he's not as popular as he
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: was at the beginning of this year. It is also
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: funny that the only time he does focus on the
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: economy or talk about the economy, it's when he speaks
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: about his most unpopular policy, which is the tariffs, which
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: in that Pennsylvania rally, he once again said, it's my
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: favorite word. I love that word. It's beautiful. The tariffs
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: are making us rich. Like just, he has become more,
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: he's always been out of touch, but he's become more
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: out of touch in this last year than I've ever
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: seen him.
• 11:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's fair to say, like he's
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: obviously out of touch in the sense that he is
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: a man who has a gold toilet.
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: But he has had a gut.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Instinct for the grievances of a subset of Americans, and
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: that has powered his political rise. He was prescient on
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: immigration and people's reaction to that. He obviously understood the border.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: But now he is not out traveling with people. He's
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: not talking to other politicians around the country as he travels.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: He really only hangs out with rich tech billionaires and
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: a bunch of obsequious staffers who were just tell them
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: how great he is all the time.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: And a few white nationalist freaks.
• 12:19
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: Who said that's redundant with what I just said.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: No, something like in the Venn diagram, there's like, you
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: got the billionaires, you got the, the grifter obsequious staffers
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: who just want, and there's some overlap there.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: And then you've got like the Stephen Miller. Yeah.
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: And the, you know, the white nationalist, but some of the,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: like some of the white nationalists might be the, some
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: of the tech people like this.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Elon Musk today did say that, um,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: these liberals are advocating a white genocide. So that's, yeah,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: I think he would probably. But I will say that
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: like the other challenge he has is there's not a
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: lot of levers for him to pull.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: None, no.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: And he also needs an enemy and he needs a
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: plausible villain in his story. And the problem with affordability
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: is he doesn't have a plausible villain because he can
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: blame Joe Biden, but like that's not working because everyone
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: understands that Joe Biden doesn't, is long gone from the
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: White House. And no one believes that it's Joe Biden's
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: economy anymore. Very few people. Democrats in Congress aren't stopping
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: him from anything because we don't have power there. So
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: he loses that enemy. And he doesn't want to go
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: after corporations or rich people because they're his only friends.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: And so it's like, I guess Jerome Powell is his villain.
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Like, what do you even do if you're Trump? I mean,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: you could.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: Change your message.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Change your tariff policy. Change your message.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: You could resend all the tariffs. Now, that is not
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: going to immediately lower all prices.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: It is, I think it's just worth just focusing on
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: the fact that it is actually a tremendous political feat
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: that most people blame Trump for the economy right now.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: Because he did not, inflation was here before he got here.
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: But I think it's mainly because of the tariffs.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: It's exactly because of the tariffs, which is, you know,
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: we've talked about this before, but voters give newly elected presidents,
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: a pretty long leash to solve the problem they were
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: elected to solve. When Obama was running, we were in
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: midway into a reelection campaign and a majority of voters
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: still blame George W. Bush for the state of the
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: economy more than Obama. We are 10 months in. And
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: because Trump said, thank you for electing me. I promise
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: to lower your prices. My first act is I'm going
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: to raise all your prices. And voters took that seriously.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: And they immediately get assigned agency to him for all
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: of their problems. And he and the Republicans are paying
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: the price for it right now.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it did just keep getting worse because it
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: was like, I'm going to raise all the prices. I'm
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: going to fire tons of people. All you heard about
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: the first couple months was just him firing federal workers.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: And not everyone's a federal worker, but still that's what
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: you heard in the headlines. Then there was the tariffs.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Then there was, you know, I hate the idea of
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: stopping premium hikes so much that I'm willing to keep
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: the government closed over it. I don't think that helped
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: him either. There was, oh, there was passing his big
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: legislation that was a giant tax cut for the rich
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: paid for by cutting people's health care.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: It's really been a banner year for him.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: The thing he's getting the most attention for is things
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: like demolishing the White House to build a ballroom.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: Decorating the White House in gold.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Qatari jet. Don't forget the Qatari jet.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: The crypto scams. All of this comes together. And this
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: is their hope and prayer. Like James Blair, who's the
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: White House political director, I think, or deputy chief of staff,
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: something like that. He did an interview the other day
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: and he said, things are going to get better. Because
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: he said, just because they should commit a political gap
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: every single day. that the fundamentals in the economy are strong.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: I heard that.
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: Which is, for people to know, a historically famous political
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: gaffe that John McCain made right as Lehman Brothers was
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: collapsing in 2008.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: But the argument is- One of the worst gaffes of
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: the 2008 general election.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: It's one of the worst gaffes of the last 40
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: years in politics. It's up there with 47%. Now, I
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: will say, giving yourself an A + + + +
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: on the economy right here is worse than all of
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: those combined, and that should be in one million ads-
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: All the time. It's a thing that people will remember
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: because as you and I know, right, like there is
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: this idea. I'm just going to diverge here for a second.
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: Nice.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: I think I know where you're going.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Vibes based.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: I'm so there.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: Like there is this very dumb idea that really circulated
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: a lot in the Biden presidency that people's impression is
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: the economy is vibe based. And so if the president
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: says the economy is great, voters will then believe them
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: and like the economy more than like the president more.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: And this kind of came because Trump talked up the
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: economy in 2017 and people like the economy, but that's
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: also because the economy was good. And so you and
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: I know this from looking at focus groups in 2009, 2010,
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: that when voters who feel true economic pressure and are
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: truly worried about their financial situation are told that the
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: economy is better than they think it is, they want
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: to flip the fucking table over in the focus group.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: And so giving yourself an A + + + +
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: is just sticking your thumb in the eye of every voter.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: And it's not to say that people's impressions of the
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: economy are solely based on the economic statistics as they
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: are and that other considerations, vibes, if you will, don't
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: play into your perception of the economy. But when the
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: person who's supposed to be in charge of the country
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: is the one telling you– the person that you– that
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: you put into office, or at least has been elected
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: into office, and job it is to manage the economy,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: when that person tells you, no, no, no, actually everything's great,
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: you're going to be fucking angry. It's not going to...
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: For other people who said that, like, oh, Joe Biden
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: should have just talked up the economy, and it wasn't
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: just that Joe Biden should talk up the economy. All
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: of us, all of us were supposed to pretend... Right.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: All the Democrats in Congress, all of us pundits, everyone,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: we're all supposed to just talk every day, talk about
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: the great statistics. And that was going to make everyone think, well,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump is doing that now and has been doing
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: that for last several months. And his economic approval rating
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: has taken a dive. So I thought he was magic
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: in the first term. And Donald Trump was great at this.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: And he was such a showman and a marketer. Why
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: isn't it working this time? Because it's based on people's
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: fucking perceptions of their own financial position. Now you got
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: me going.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: It's also important if we find out that some families
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: are spending too much money on milk, we should scorn
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: them on Twitter.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Or we can't talk about gas prices because those bad journalists,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: those mean journalists stood in front of a gas station
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: that had artificially high prices.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: You can maybe alter how people feel about the macro economy,
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: but the micro economy, how it affects your life, and
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: the idea of a vibes-based economy where you can tell
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: people that reality is not reality– in a time of
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: inflation is impossible because they, every day they go to
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: the grocery store, they go to the gas station, they
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: get the utility bill. They see how their bank account changes.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: And in fact, it's harder than if there's high unemployment.
• 18:53
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Because inflation affects more people than unemployment. Not having a
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: job probably affects you a lot more than having to
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: pay a little more for groceries, but it affects more people.
• 19:02
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: Like even in the peak of the great recession, the
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: unemployment rate under Obama was like 10, 11%.
• 19:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: So which means the vast majority of people had jobs.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: They had a existential fear of losing their jobs.
• 19:22
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• 21:07
  Speaker 2: So on that note, another jaw-dropping number in the AP
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: poll is Trump's approval on immigration, where he's 22 points underwater, 38-60.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: 38 approved, 60 disapproved. Also a new low for him.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Also not stopping him from hammering his favorite issue in
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: the most racist way possible. Here he is again during
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: that Pennsylvania event.
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: We had a meeting.
• 21:29
  Speaker 6: And I say, why is it we only take people
• 21:32
  Speaker 6: from shithole countries? Right? Why can't we have some people
• 21:37
  Speaker 6: from Norway, Sweden, just a few?
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Let us have a few.
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: We always take people from Somalia, places that are a disaster, right? Filthy, dirty, disgusting,
• 21:49
  Speaker 6: ridden with crime. The only thing they're good at is
• 21:51
  Speaker 6: going after ships.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: It is a small point, but I think an important
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: one that he and the White House and various Republican
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: senators like Tom Cotton vigorously denied that story. about him
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: calling them shithole countries in the meeting for the last
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: several years. And then he just, of course, admitted it.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like justice for Josh Dawsey, the Washington Post
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: reporter who originally reported that.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Right, it's like, did we think that the Trump people
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: were telling the truth back then? No, no, we didn't
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: think it, but they're liars. So just, it's nice to
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: know that they are liars, that we're right about that.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic. It's a difference between Trump 1.0
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: and 2.0, which is 1.0, all this was behind closed
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: doors and they were embarrassed to say it out loud.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: Here you hold a rally to shout at the top
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: of your lungs.
• 22:32
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Kristi Noem appeared at a House Homeland Security Committee
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: hearing on Thursday where she was heckled by audience members
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: and left early right around the same time that a
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: federal judge ordered the release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia from
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: the detention facility in Pennsylvania where he was being held
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: while he awaits trial on very shaky human trafficking charges.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: There was also quite a moment in that hearing with
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Noem where Seth Magaziner, Democratic congressman, was like, oh, how
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: many veterans have you deported? She's like, we haven't deported veterans.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: And then he pops up on a screen, has a
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: veteran who they just recently deported, legal resident. So classic.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: He really wants, and you could tell because this is
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: the only part of the rally he got really excited about,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: was doing the shithole countries thing. He could tell he
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: was losing the crowd. He could tell it was pretty boring.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: They even had fucking charts up. He knew the charts
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: were boring. He was like, oh, these charts are playing
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: so well, so I'm going to throw up another one.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Then you could tell he got to the immigration stuff,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: which wasn't in the prompter, of course. Bad news for us.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: Someone tell the awards committee.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: So he just went rogue and started doing his racist
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: shithole countries bit. And you can tell he just really
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: wants to make next year's elections about immigration again. Worked
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: for him in 24. Didn't so much work for him
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: in 18, 20, 22. We just talked about how it's
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: very hard for him to ever get to an affordability
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: message that matches how people are feeling. And so I
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: assume he will try to make next year about immigration,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: about crime, all his favorites. What do you think about
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: his ability to do that?
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: I think it's pretty limited because, you know, I think
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: in the common imagination, we think he made 2024 about
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: immigration and immigration certainly was a part of that campaign.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: But I went back and looked at the exit polls
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: and more people listed abortion as a number one issue
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: than immigration. Only 12% listed immigration. The number one issue
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: was actually democracy at 34%, which is a little strange.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: But the basic point is he won.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: It's like we didn't win that one.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: Well, I think democracy is– some people, they just said
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: it was the number one issue. They didn't say they
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: liked it.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Exactly. It was an issue.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: The thing– I think it's going to be very hard
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: for him to make it bigger than the economy of
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: affordability and the way it should reform. It would have
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: to be the only– we were headed– in 2022, inflation
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: was about to be the most important issue. And then
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: the Supreme Court overturned Roe in June before the election.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: That changed the dynamics of the election. It would have
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: to be something on that level to actually change how
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: people feel and to raise the science of immigration. I
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: don't think it's something Trump can do on his own
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: through rallies and truce and even like White House policy
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: proclamations have to be something like sort of a massive
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: national galvanizing event that would change that.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: I also think, and he goes on to say this
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: as he's talking about immigration, he's like, my team told
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: me Don't talk about the border because, you know, you
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: already why we already fixed the border. It's fixed. And
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: now I'm not even getting credit for it. And the
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: truth is, however, he did it like the border crossings
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: are almost a zero. And so in the past, especially
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: when Biden was president, people's disapproval of Biden on immigration
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: was related to something real that was happening, which was
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: an influx of immigrants that came to the southern border
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: and then because of people like Greg Abbott and Ron
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: DeSantis were transported to cities all over the country who
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: then struggled with their own finances to try to care
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: for a lot of these migrants. And so it was
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: a real thing now. And the reason, so you see
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: he's like on the border, he's still plus two in
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: the AP poll, but then immigration is negative 22. The
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: deportation regime is a fucking flop politically. I mean, it's horrific.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: We've talked about that all year. like morally horrendous, but
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: it is also deeply unpopular. And it is something that
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: almost everyone is aware of because I do think that
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: these videos that have been circulating social media and everywhere
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: have been in people's feeds and people's phones all year
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: and they're horrific because people see U.S. citizens, legal residents, kids,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: even undocumented immigrants who don't seem like they pose any
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: threat whatsoever just being tackled, abused, harassed, detained, tear gassed,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: pepper balls. I mean, it's just a fucking disaster for them.
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: Did you see Kyle Tharp's newsletter, Chaotic Error? He just
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: did a post where he went through the most viral
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: events of 2025 political events. And ICE and immigration is
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: sort of right smack in the middle. It's one of
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: the absolute biggest ones because it breaks through. It travels
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: on social. People are aware of it. And ultimately, Trump
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: is doing a very bad job and going too far
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: to solve a problem that people really are not as
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: focused on as he thought they were.
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: And I would also say, like, if I was devising
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: a message for a Democratic candidate, you know, like 70%
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: of it is, 75% of it is cost of living, healthcare,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: like hammering Trump on those issues, corruption, like in that bucket.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: But I would not forget to talk about what he
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: is doing on immigration.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: And how would you do that?
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: And I would talk about the deportations, and I would
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: talk about the U.S. citizens that are being rounded up,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: and I would talk about the violence against protesters. with
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: the people who have been disappeared. And I think that
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: it is people seeing the videos and they, I think
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: that they are scared. And also Donald Trump and Stephen
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: Miller are not going to give that part up. And
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I don't think that we can be, I don't think
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: it's going to work to be only economy while they're
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: only immigration. We're going to have to join that fight
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: and we shouldn't be afraid of it. And I think
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: these numbers bear that out. The fact that it went
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: from one of his strongest issues and crime, by the way,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: For a while it was, okay, well, people don't like
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: the deportations, but he's so strong on crime, so we
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: shouldn't talk about the deployments and the takeover of D.C.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: and all that stuff. That's unpopular as well also. I'm
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: not saying it's like the top issue, the thing we
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: should be talking about all the time, but like it's
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: a big deal to people. I saw over, I don't
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: know if you saw this over last week, two weeks ago,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: who knows? There's that story about an immigration naturalization ceremony.
• 28:40
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: And it was at, it's happening all over the country,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: according to this report, but this one was at Faneuil Hall,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: of all places in Boston. And people are lined up
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: and they have now to become a citizen, the legal way,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: the right way, this is part of the challenge, takes years.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: You have to meet all kinds of requirements, pass all
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: kinds of tests. And finally, these people are waiting in
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: line to take the oath to become citizens of the
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: United States and federal agents come and fucking pull them
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: out of line And like, and that one of the
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: clients at the WGBH talked to, which is the local
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: affiliate in Boston, um, she's a Haitian woman in her
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: fifties and she's had her green card since the early
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: two thousands. She has been working to get her citizenship
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: in this country, done everything right since the early two thousands.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: And she gets to the fucking ceremony and they pull
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: her out of line. You cannot tell me that that
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: isn't that if most people in this country heard about
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: that story, they wouldn't be fucking outraged. I would put
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: it at 70, 85 percent, maybe 70. And so, like,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: I just think that those are the kind of stories
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: that I think Democrats should be telling. Now, I think
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: we have a lot of work to do ourselves. I'm like, well,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: what would you do? What would your immigration system look like?
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: For sure.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: And I think that's you know, more of a 28
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: issue than a 26 issue, but it's out there. But
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: I would not, I would not run away from this issue.
• 30:03
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: I don't think you, there's this, I think, idea that
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: you decide what the single best issue is. And you
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: only talk about that to the exclusion of all the
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: things happening on the planet. And that just is not
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: how the world works. It's not how like you're going
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: to go to, you're going to campaign, you're going to
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: ask questions at town halls, you're going to be in
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: a debate, you're going to ask questions there. You're going
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: to have to respond to things happening in your community
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: as a candidate. A lot of people are talking about
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: our members of Congress. They have to talk about all
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: these things. This idea that we've figured out affordability is
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: the issue. We're only going to talk about affordability to
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: the exclusion of anything else. You bring up anything else,
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: we're going to say it's a distraction from affordability. That's
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: just not how humans talk and humans work. The longer
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: term issue here is that Trump's numbers suck on all
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: these issues, but still on almost every issue except healthcare, abortion,
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: and climate change, generically voters trust Republicans more than Democrats.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, that's an affordability. Yeah.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: That one is basically close to a tie now, which
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: is crazy.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a longer.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: Conversation in there too about Democrats being too reticent on
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: calling for the tariffs to be repealed for a whole
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: host of very bizarre, outdated, anachronistic political reasons. But that's
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: part of it is that we have no There's a
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: simple answer to how we would lower costs right away
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: that too many Democrats are not running on.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: And I think it's not, this isn't an ideological thing
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: because I think that Democrats, I think it's a consequence
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: of Democrats just not knowing what we stand for and
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: what the basic universal values are that drive our party.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Because it's like, on immigration, it's like people are afraid
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: to be seen as too loose on immigration. Like we
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: don't want to seem like open borders. But then at
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: the other side, we don't want to be too strict, right?
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: And we're afraid to say anything about enforcement. And so
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: we're just sort of like reactive, same thing on costs
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: and affordability. It's like, well, are there small things that
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: we can talk about? Because we don't know how far
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: we want to go and we don't have any like
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: big ambitious policies on affordability. And so like, I do
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: think that we kind of have to figure out like,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: what is the country we want? What does it look
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: like if we take power And not just from an
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: individual policy perspective, but how do we feel about the
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: economy and affordability? What is the American dream that is
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: achievable for people, that should be achievable for people, and
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: what do we want to do about that? We haven't
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: had that debate. I don't know how long.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that's what the 2028 primary is. Like,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: it's just, right now, it's like, what's.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: The Democratic- Well, last time it was, last time we
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: did this, it was- I wouldn't say we did a
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: great job last time. Yeah, let's everyone talk about how,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: here's Bernie's Medicare for All plan, and let's have everyone
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: else talk about how their Medicare for All plan is
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: not as good as Bernie's, and then we'll all yell
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: Well, the thing is, we then had a process that
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: ended up in Joe Biden becoming the nominee, and that
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: the party's position was that we were going to strengthen
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: the Affordable Care Act.
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: And then we had, but Joe Biden had a position
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: on immigration that he ran on that was not necessarily
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: the policy that he governed on when he got there. Although,
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: you know, like there will be a process here. A
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: nominee will emerge that a nominee will have positions that
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: will then define the party for good or for ill. The,
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: I think there's a risk of over complicating this for 2026.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: Like what we are trying to show people is that
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: we are going to be a check on Trump.
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: And they can't, we shouldn't promise too much because we
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: can't be able to deliver.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: Even if we won the house and the Senate, we
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: can't necessarily deliver anything. But the one thing we can
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: promise is that we are going to force a vote
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: on repealing the tariffs.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's one.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: We could have a series of ideas of how we're
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: going to address corruption. First vote is going to be
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: get rid of, just stop members of Congress from trading stocks.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: We can have a bunch of things that we're going
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: to do. And voters aren't dumb. They have given Democrats,
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: they've given the opposition party's power all the time in
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: situations like this, knowing that the president, they want a check.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: They don't necessarily want They're not expecting Hakeem Jeffries and
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: the Democrats to solve all of their problems. They want
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: them to stop Trump from making their problems worse.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: And after that entire 2020 debate on Medicare for all
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: that led to simply an extension of bigger subsidies for
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: the Affordable Care Act, maybe we can force a vote
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: on actually extending those subsidies.
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: Maybe we can, yeah.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: We actually went on it, which leads us to our
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: next topic, health care.
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: Great transition.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, of course. Unsurprisingly, it's the worst issue
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: in the poll for Trump, health care. He's underwater by
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: 40 points. I guess that's what happens when you show
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: people that, you know, you'd rather keep the entire federal
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: government closed than help stop premium hikes that are set
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: to go into effect in just a few weeks for
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: 20 million Americans. Some Republicans in Congress seem like they're
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: belatedly coming around to the conclusion that this could be
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: a political problem for them in the midterms, but not
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: enough to just vote for the Senate Democrats proposal to
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: extend the subsidies for three years. That vote failed on Thursday,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: as did all the Republican alternative proposals in the Senate.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: There's some momentum in the House right now on discharge
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: petitions to force votes on various extension proposals. There's one
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: proposal to extend the subsidies for two years.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: That's the Republican discharge petition.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: There's another proposal to extend the subsidies for one year.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Both of those come with new income eligibility limits and
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: minimum payments. Trump's basically been a passive bystander on all this,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: though Caroline Lovett said on Thursday we'll all be hearing
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: from him on this. quote very soon. I'm sure that
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: will be constructive. What do you think about this? Hakeem
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Jeffries was asked about these discharge petitions and Democrats lining
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: up behind it. I think the one-year extension one came
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: from Josh Gottheimer, Democrat from New Jersey, and now has
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: like 62 people that have signed onto it. But Hakeem
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Jeffries said he's not taking a position on these discharge petitions.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: What do you make of that?
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: I think that Democrats, Republicans want a get out of
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: jail free card here that allows them to take a
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: vote to extend the Obamacare tax credits without ever actually
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: having to extend the Obamacare tax credits. So if I
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: was Hakeem Jeffries, I would say Democrats are not going
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: to put any discharge petition over the top until the
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: Senate passes a bill.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Or what if you say, or, and we want Donald
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Trump to say he's going to sign it.
• 36:13
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Because he's the other part. I mean, they could pass
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: the House.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, hard to imagine Donald Trump vetoing.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, that would be... Maybe he could do it
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: at the next rally.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: Honestly, from a pure political perspective.
• 36:24
  Speaker 5: A + + + +.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: That would be A + + + + move. Just
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: the thing you don't want to do is let 15
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: vulnerable Republicans to be able to take a vote because
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: we forced the vote. The Republicans without Democratic help cannot
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: get a discharge petition done. There aren't enough Republicans to
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: do it. So you need the vast majority. Basically, you
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: need the DCCC's target list plus a bunch of Democrats
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: to put it over the top, and I don't think
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: we should do them that political favor unless we know
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: for sure that will result in people actually getting more
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: affordable health care.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like if Trump came out tomorrow and said, I'm
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: for this extension that's circulating the House, and Thune's like, yeah,
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: we can get that done too, then the Democrats are like, sure,
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: of course.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, then Mike Johnson will bring it up, right? Then
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: you don't need the discharge petition.
• 37:05
  Speaker 6: Right, right, right.
• 37:16
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• 38:30
  Speaker 2: So voters are already punishing Republican politicians for all this
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: chaos and not just in federal races anymore. On Tuesday,
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Eileen Higgins won the runoff in the Miami mayor's race,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: beating the Trump and DeSantis endorsed Republican by 18 points.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: She will be the first Democratic mayor in Miami in
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: three decades. And in the Georgia legislative elections, I know
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: you were all paying attention to that, Democrat Eric Gissler
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: flipped a statehouse district that Trump carried by 12 points.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Now the DCCC, which is the House Democrats campaign arm,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: says it's adding five more Republican-held seats to its target
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: list for 2026. And a bunch of Democrats deciding it's
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: a good year to run for office are launching primary
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: campaigns right and left. We talked last week a little
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: bit about how Jasmine Crockett was expected to jump into
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: the Senate race in Texas. She is now officially in.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Colin Allred has dropped out, meaning that Crockett's main opponent
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: will be James Tallarico. Republicans are acting like they were
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: dying to have Crockett in the race all along. The
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Senate Republicans' campaign committee actually tried to take credit for
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: making it happen by circulating a poll favorable to Crockett
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: over the summer. Crockett responded to this on CNN. Let's
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: take a listen.
• 39:38
  Speaker 7: I am the one that the Republicans fear. They can
• 39:40
  Speaker 7: say that they don't. But my governor cannot stop tweeting
• 39:43
  Speaker 7: about me. And I know that that is out of fear.
• 39:46
  Speaker 7: Because honestly, if they really wanted me as the nominee...
• 39:50
  Speaker 7: They would be quiet and just wait and hope to
• 39:52
  Speaker 7: crush me. They know my ability to reach people that
• 39:56
  Speaker 7: historically have not wanted to participate in politics or had
• 39:59
  Speaker 7: just given up.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: So Crockett entered the race with a video that was
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: just her sort of looking away from the camera as
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: just sound of Trump attacking her played and she didn't
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: say anything. and then at the end sort of turns
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: direct to camera and smiles, and that's how she entered
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: the race. So very, you get the idea. She also
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: did an event. She gave a whole speech and stuff
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: like that, like a rally with supporters. What do you
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: make of Crockett's entry in the race and sort of
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: that message and how she's playing it so far?
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: Well, she has to win a Democratic primary first. That
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: message probably plays very well in a Democratic primary. It's
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: also a great way to raise money and get attention,
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: two things that I think she will be very, very
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: good at in this race. I think the question for...
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: Jasmine Crockett and James Tallarico, frankly, is what is your
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: plan to actually win? Because this is a state that
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: Trump won by 13 and a half points. There is
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: no math to win this state that does not involve
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: doing what Jasmine Crockett pledges to do, which is to
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: turn out Democratic voters and to find pockets of Democratic
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: voters who do not participate in the political process and
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: bring them into it, but also winning over some number
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: of Trump voters, people who voted for Trump last year,
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: who have voted for Republicans most of the last decade,
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: who are frustrated by what's happening, who are mad about
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: high costs, or mad about the ballroom, whatever else, who
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: wanna give a Democrat a chance. And so what is
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: your plan to do both of those things? Because you're
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: gonna have to do both to win. There's no other option.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: And simply saying you're gonna expand the electorate is not
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: enough in Texas.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: It is not.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: And it's not historically how Democrats have come close. I mean,
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: Beto talked about it all the time in 2018, but
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: a part of Beto's very close result, which was I
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: think two and a half points, he lost Ted Cruz
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: by two and a half points, was actually doing, making
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: some inroads with Republican voters. And, you know, he did
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: expanding the electorate as well. You do both.
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: You have to do both. And you have to do,
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: you have to, and to win in Texas, you have
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: to do an incredible historic job at both.
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: And I don't, I agree that it is a way
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: to get attention that like Trump hates me. And so
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: therefore you should I think it is a– even in
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: a primary, I think it's an argument that is limited.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that's the only one she's making.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: But I think it's a limited argument, particularly in a
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: midterm where, you know.
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: It's 2026.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: Trump's leaving office in 2028. And, you know, the Democrats
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: in Texas who've come close over the last decade have
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: talked a lot about– Just one. Texas.
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: Beto.
• 42:37
  Speaker 6: Beto, yeah.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, yeah. Well, even like, I'm sorry,
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: the ones who've like won house races, right? Like Colin
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Allred and Lizzie Fletcher and people like that. They talk
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: about Texas, the issues in Texas, what people care about.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Like you really got to, it can't be about you.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: It's got to be about people.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: We haven't won a seat in Texas since 1988. Lloyd
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: Benson's re-election. We haven't won statewide in a couple of
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: decades now.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: And I know that some people think, oh, Democrats are always...
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: you know, they're always thinking Texas is going to turn
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: blue and they're out. Texas is always around the corner
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: and it's always, it's fool's gold for Democrats. And like,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: I get that, but also we don't have a choice
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: at some point because it is one of the biggest
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: states in the union. We've talked before about how in
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: 2032 in the next census, it'll likely gain more electoral votes.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: Like there is no math for Democrats to certainly have
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: the Senate, but also the White House without at some
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: point playing seriously in Texas and turning Texas.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: And Florida.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: And Florida, I know, yeah.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Like Democrats have to play, like I think it is
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: a very good thing that we're going to have a
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: vigorous primary in Texas, whether that was going to end
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: up being Tallarico and Allred, Crockett, Tallarico, Allred, or now
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: Crockett and Tallarico. I think that's very important. That is
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: good for party building. We have to really play to
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: win there. We have to play to win there in
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: the short term because we kind of need Texas, right?
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: Like maybe you can pull it off with Iowa or
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: Alaska if you're lucky, but like We need two of
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: four very hard states. And so you want as many
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: lines in the water as you possibly can. Now, over
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: the long term, we cannot cede Texas and Florida forever.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: We absolutely have to make them at least competitive. Because
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: if Republicans start with all of the upper Midwest, all
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: the Deep South, plus Texas and Florida, they're always going
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: to be three states or so from winning the presidency
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: every single time. And so we have to be able
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: to compete there. And that's going to mean investing money
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: and time and energy race after race after race, even
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: when we lose.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: And I do think, you know, I think Crockett and
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Tallarico both have sort of similar positions on the issues.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: I think like ideologically that, and I could be wrong
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: about this and the whole, the race will play out,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: but they don't seem too far apart. I do think
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: that in a state like Texas too, it is the
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: style and approach to campaigning and to governing that is
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: going to matter here. And, you know, Tallarico was here.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: I he has, whether it works or not, remains to
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: be seen. He does have a theory of the case
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: of like how he wants to reach out to people
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: who may not vote Democrat. And part of it is,
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: you know, he's a man of faith. He speaks about
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: it openly and he's going to all these different places
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: that the Democrats haven't won. And I'm interested to see
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: and hear from Jasmine Crockett what her plan to do
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: that is. She did say, you know, at one point
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: she was like, I don't need Trump voters. And then
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: later she was like, well, You know, there's always Trump-Mamdani voters,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: you know, in New York. And point taken, you know,
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: the New York Trump-Mamdani voters are a little different than Texas,
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: I think. But also, let's not forget, Mamdani, like, he
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: started his campaign by doing these on-the-street videos with Trump
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: voters where he asked them why they voted for Donald
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Trump and did not scold them, was not patronizing to them,
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: and just had a conversation with them. And even though
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: that he didn't change his positions and he was still
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: pretty firmly ideologically left, he tried to approach that. And
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: so I'm interested to see if she does stuff like that.
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's, that is going to be interesting because like
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: moderation is not always ideological. It's also temperament.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: And Jasmine Crockett and James Taylor are both like right
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: in line with the median democratic member of Congress or
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: elected official. Like she is, like she is often grouped
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: with AOC and Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar and members
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: of the, or Bernie or whoever's members of the squad.
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: Because she is so– Because of her style. Her style.
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: But her positions are– she is not a dyed-in-the-wool progressive
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: like some of those other folks. So it's really going
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: to be their approach to this and their style. It
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: truly is a fascinating test case.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize until our meeting the other day that
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: it's so soon. It's like the first big– early voting
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: starts sometime in February. It's in March. It's a March primary.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: So that will be one of the first big ones
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: of the year. We also have an update on Trump's
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: redistricting push in Indiana, which has involved the president, his administration,
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: and Republican congressional leaders pressuring, and in Trump's case, threatening
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Indiana Republicans with primaries and a loss of federal funding
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: if they don't gerrymander their maps to squeeze out a
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: few more Republican seats in time for the midterms. Well,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: Trump has failed. Right before we recorded, the Republican-controlled state
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Senate killed the measure 31 to 19 with more Republicans
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: voting against redistricting than for it. Were you surprised?
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: A little bit. I think the natural assumption over the
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: last year is that everyone bows, all these people bow
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: to Trump, and particularly Republicans, right? They can talk, whether
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: it's the Freedom Caucus, it's the moderates, they can talk
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: a good game, but when push comes to shove, they
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: do what Trump wants. And here you have a bunch
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: of local state senators from Indiana, a deeply red state,
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: just telling Trump no. And it really should be a
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: moment of great shame for the law firms, the universities,
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: the corporations. the folks at Warner Brothers, Discovery, or wherever
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: else who were thinking about doing what Trump wants, because
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: you can stand up to him. And if these folks
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: can do it, you certainly can.
• 48:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: I think it is, I mean, it's obviously a big
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: deal for the map, but I think that for this
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: White House and for Trump, like they cannot handle any defection,
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: any defeat, particularly, you know, from Republicans, right? And you're
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: not supposed to be disloyal. It's the worst thing. And
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: now that this is out there and this has happened,
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: the cracks are showing and like this combined with Marjorie
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Taylor green and the Epstein files and all, and it's like,
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: it's all of a piece here and it's starting to
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: become a, a real problem for them.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: There is an emperor has no close moment here where
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: people like Trump has been punching above his weight when
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: it came to his actual political influence for a long time,
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: because he was elected with an incredibly narrow margin. He
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: was started as the least popular newly elected president in history.
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: He dropped faster than any other president. but yet Republicans
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: kept following him based sort of on the fumes of
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: his previous political strength. And now people recognize that here
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: he is, a guy less popular than Joe Biden at
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: the same time, with George W. Bush style numbers, who's
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: getting weaker, who's never going to be on the ballot again,
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: and that they have to chart their own course. And
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: it's not necessarily going to be the course that he dictates.
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: And that's a real, that is a change in both
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: American politics, the Republican party and Trump, because what has
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: kept him afloat all this time Through every scandal, every controversy.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: everything else has been party fidelity to Trump. And when
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: that falls apart, he really loses a lot of his juice.
• 49:26
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: Now, the one caution here is I do think he
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: gets more dangerous.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. This is not about.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: No, I know you, but we have to keep saying
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: that because I think that as he gets politically weaker,
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: that's the good news. But I think he gets cornered
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: and he gets dangerous and he still has quite a
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: bit of power.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: He does. Where it limits him is in some of
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: the more extreme, like steal the election sort of things.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. That's true.
• 49:51
  Speaker 6: All right.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Last thing before we get to my very serious conversation
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: with Congressman Adam Smith about Trump's illegal strikes in the Caribbean.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: We've been talking a lot on the show about Nick Fuentes,
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: the dedicated white nationalist, anti-Semite misogynist who famously had dinner
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: with Trump and more recently was invited on Tucker Carlson
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: show for a softball interview with setting off an intramagic
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: debate about how nice they should be to white nationalists.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: Fuentes appeared this week on Piers Morgan's show on Monday night,
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: and it yielded this exchange.
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: Just to clear up one of the many theories about you,
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: I have no idea what the answer is, and you
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: haven't got an answer. But are you actually attracted to women?
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: I am attracted to women. You're not gay?
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: No.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: But I will say that women are very difficult to
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: be around.
• 50:33
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: So.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: There's that.
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: And do you think they should have the right to vote?
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: I do not.
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: No.
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: Absolutely not. They should stay at home?
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah.
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. See, basically, you're just a misogynist old dinosaur, aren't you?
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: Have you ever had sex? No, absolutely not.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: Says the guy who's never got laid.
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: It's like a turn there.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: There's so much about that. It's just, have you ever
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: had sex? And it wasn't like, No, it was. No,
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: absolutely not. With the Christmas decorations behind him. That was bizarre.
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: It was very strange.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: What did you make of that?
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know what to make of that, John.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: I really don't. That's the right.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: I guess.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: That's the hard right. That's where the energy is. That's right.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: That's where the new masculinity is right there.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: That is who the whole party is fighting over. For
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: some reason, they can't bring themselves to just be like, no,
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: that guy, not welcome into the fold.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: It's actually helpful to see this clip because most people,
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: people who listen to this, people like us, don't ever
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: consume Nick Fuentes. We just hear about the fight within
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: the party over the Tucker Carlson interview, which they probably
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: didn't watch or see clips of or anything else. And
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: you recognize that this is the guy lording over the
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: Republican Party is this dweeb.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: And I also think people hear, oh, he's racist, white nationalist.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: And they think, oh, is it like, When we hear
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump say shithole countries, and it's like, no, no, no, no.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: It's not that. It is like pure, uncut, doesn't care,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: just says it and believes it. And is a virgin.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: And is a virgin. Just a white nationalist incel who
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: has a massively popular radio program. Radio program? What did
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: I say?
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: You said radio program.
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: He has a radio.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: I just transported myself back to the 50s where women
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: stayed home like they should.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: How's his leaflet business going?
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: YouTube, whatever. I don't know. He's out there. Millions of
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: people following him.
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: On some platform, you don't know what it is.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Speaking of toxic manosphere influencers, you see the Time story
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: about the Tate brothers, how Andrew Tate and his brother
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: were freed from Romania after getting close to Don Jr.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: and Barron Trump.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: Andrew Tate holds Zooms with Barron, presumably to give him
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: dating advice.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: They held a Zoom. The third Tate brother, one of
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: the Tate brothers' friends, not real Tate brother, but he's
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: known as the third.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: He's like a Tate bro.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like friends.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: Tate brother from another mother.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: He gives Barron dating advice. But the Times, it's quite
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: a story. The Times got a hold of text messages
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: that Andrew Tate sent. And this is from the story.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: In a January 14th text message, Mr. Tate indicated, so
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: basically we should say, before I read it, what happened
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: was The Tate brothers who have been accused over the
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: years of rape, assault.
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: Sex trafficking.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: Sex trafficking. Just horrific stuff. And finally, they were charged
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: in Romania. And the Romanian government said that while the
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: prosecutor was building the case there, they couldn't leave the country.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: They desperately wanted to leave the country.
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: To avoid prosecution.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: To avoid prosecution. They wanted to come to the United States.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: So this is from the Times story. In a January
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: 14th text message, Mr. Tate indicated that help was on
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: the way. And this is January 14th of 2025. I
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: had word from the Trump administration that they're on top
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: of things, Mr. Tate wrote to someone close to him
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: in a message reviewed by the New York Times. Quote,
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: I've been told I'll be free soon, but Trump needs
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: to see me in Miami, he added. And then the
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: whole story is about how they got close to the Trumps.
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: And so basically Trump, like obviously there's like this political
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: element to the Tates and the manosphere and all of that,
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: but it's also like he freed his son's idol.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: I just how many just disgusting, bad human beings are
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: we going to find out the Donald Trump part? It's
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: like a variety of everyone that you could imagine. It's like,
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: do you not like sex traffickers? Well, he freed one
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: of those. What about the people who stormed the Capitol?
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: He freed them. What about just your standard issue fraudster
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: who just like, you know, defrauded hundreds of thousands of
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: people and senior citizens freed them, too?
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: What about the murder we brought back from Venezuela and
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: the prisoner exchange?
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one. Oh, what about the drug kingpin from
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: the Honduran president that was in league with the drug
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: kingpins that was sitting in federal prison here? Pardon him
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: as well. Silk Road guy, another drug dealer. Pardon him
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: A bunch of crypto guys. Did you see that Trump?
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: The Trump Department of Justice dropped the investigation against the
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: FIFA corruption people?
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Right after Trump got his fake FIFA prize? Well,
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: he got the peace prize. He doesn't want to... Anyone
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: connected to the FIFA peace prize, we don't want to
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: see them, you know, get in any trouble.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: It's weird. His numbers on crime aren't doing so great.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: If you have money, if you have connections, you get pardoned.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: You can do whatever crimes you want. But if you
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: are just a regular American citizen who looks brown and
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: happens to be near an ice raid, you could go
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: away for days and no one would ever find out
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: where you are. That's the Trump administration.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: Cool country.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we should change it in 26. All right.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: When we get back from the break, you'll hear my
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: conversation with Adam Smith. But two things before we get
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: to that, in case you missed it, Pod Save America
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: is coming to New Zealand and Australia. What do you think, Dan?
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: You ever been to Australia before?
• 55:46
  Speaker 6: No.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: Have you?
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: I have.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: I went with Barack Obama in 2014.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: I didn't go on that trip.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: You were gone. Really one of the all-time great trips.
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you the stories later.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: The fuck? Okay. Well, we're calling this one the Hopefully
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: Just Visiting Tour. And we said that's a little too
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: close to home. She's a little worried about that.
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: As Hallie had the same response.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I think it's like hanging a lantern. It's like
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: we're being this public about it. So it would be,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: I guess it would just be ironic.
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: Look at those yahoos who flew too close to the
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: sun in Australia.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: They did say it might happen and there it is happening. Anyway,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: we land in Auckland on February 11th. That is the
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: 11th of February down there. We had some issues with
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: the dates. God, we can't do anything right.
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry about that.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: Then there's three cities in Australia after that. Melbourne on
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: the 13th of February. Brisbane on the 14th of February.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: And Sydney on the 16th of February. Tickets are on
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: sale right now. For more details and to grab tickets,
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: head to cricket.com slash events. Also, if you haven't checked
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: out Runaway Country with Alex Wagner yet, what are you doing?
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: It's great. This week she's joined by three incredible guests
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: to dig into the chaos at the Pentagon. She talks
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: to Senator Alyssa Slotkin. She talks to Ben Rhodes. Heard
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: of him?
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: No.
• 56:58
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: And she talks to Nancy Youssef, one of the journalists
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: who gave up her Pentagon press pass rather than, you know,
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: deal with Pete Hegseth's new rules. And so she talks
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: about what it's like reporting outside of the Pentagon walls.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: It's a fantastic episode. I just listened to it this morning.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: It's so good. So tune into Runaway Country now on
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America brought to you by Bombas. This time
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• 58:59
  Speaker 2: Congressman Adam Smith, welcome back to Pod Save America.
• 59:02
  Speaker 5: Well, thanks for having me. A lot going on in
• 59:04
  Speaker 5: the world.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: There is a lot going on. I want to get
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: into some of the bigger questions around the Trump administration.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: military actions in the southern hemisphere and in his broader
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: foreign policy. But since you're one of the few members
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: of Congress who's actually seen the video of the second U.S.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: strike that killed two survivors of the first boat strike,
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: I wonder what you can tell us about what you
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: saw without getting into anything classified.
• 59:29
  Speaker 5: Of course. Yeah, and by the way, this video should
• 59:32
  Speaker 5: be released. There's nothing classified about this strike. I mean,
• 59:35
  Speaker 5: they've released videos on almost 20 strikes now, and they
• 59:38
  Speaker 5: should release this one. I think the reason they're not
• 59:40
  Speaker 5: is because it doesn't paint a picture that they want
• 59:43
  Speaker 5: people to see. Now, look, I mean, you've got two
• 59:45
  Speaker 5: people clinging to a capsized boat. It's the bow of
• 59:49
  Speaker 5: the boat that's still above water. How much of the
• 59:51
  Speaker 5: boat remains underwater? Can't tell because it's underwater. It's possible
• 59:55
  Speaker 5: the boat is actually split in half at this point.
• 59:58
  Speaker 5: Early on in the video, they're like pulling at it.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 5: I mean, whether or not they're trying to get it
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 5: to flip over or whether or not they're just trying
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 5: to get a solid hold so they don't fall into
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 5: the water, I don't know. But by the end of it,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 5: it's clear. There's no tipping this back over. So they're
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 5: clinging to the side of a boat. They're clearly unarmed.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 5: They do not have any communications devices on them. And
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 5: then about 40 minutes after the first strike, the second
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 5: strike hits, kills them, and sinks the remainder of the boat.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: And at one point, they were waving, maybe?
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: Near the end, they were waving, and there was a
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 5: lot of speculation about what that might mean. To me,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 5: it's pretty obvious. We had an asset in the air
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 5: over the top of them. It kind of looks like
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 5: they saw the asset, and just like two people on
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 5: a desert island, when they see something fly over, what
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 5: do you do? Right. That seemed the most likely interpretation
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 5: of that.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: So the Republicans who've seen the video have seemed largely
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: satisfied with the administration's explanation, at least in their public comments.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: Does that track with what you've heard privately? And do
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: you think they genuinely believe the strike was legal and right?
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Or are they worried about pissing off Trump?
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 5: They're clearly worried about pissing off Trump. As for the
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 5: second part, they don't talk about that. Certainly don't talk
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 5: about it with me. I have not heard that. Now,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 5: I will say that if you want to look at
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 5: the video and say, and there is an explanation, which
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 5: we can get into, that I've gotten from Admiral Bradley
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 5: on a couple of occasions now. You know, if you
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 5: want to say you buy that explanation, that's fine. But
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 5: Senator Cotton in particular has really been saying things that
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 5: either his ability to perceive events is severely limited or
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 5: he's not being honest. This notion that, you know, I
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 5: saw two people trying to flip the boat and continue
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 5: their mission. You know, they were trying to communicate and
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 5: get it. Yeah, no, that was absolutely not happening. And
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 5: then he had this line during his Meet the Press interview,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 5: I forget the exact word he used, but he said
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 5: something like, they didn't look like they had been impaired
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 5: in any way. I'm like, well, their boat got blown up,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 5: set on fire, nine of the 11 of them got killed,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 5: and they're now clinging to a capsized small piece of
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 5: the boat hundreds of miles from anywhere with no help.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 5: I don't know. I think you could interpret that as
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 5: somewhat impaired. So just the lack of honesty. Now, I mean,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 5: I suppose they could come out and say, look, this
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 5: is what we saw. This is what it was. We
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 5: still think it's legitimate. But for the most part, they've
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 5: avoided getting into specifics and just said, no, we're good.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 5: Because if you ask them about specifics, that's very difficult
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 5: to defend.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: And what was Admiral Bradley's explanation that you found plausible,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: even though you disagree with it?
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and this is where we get into the policy
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 5: and what is a real huge problem, something that I
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 5: think is really important for we Democrats as we look
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 5: to 26 and hopefully to 28 and getting back into power.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 5: How are we going to govern? Obviously, you know, cost
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 5: of living, health care, domestic issues, but national security policy matters.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 5: And I know on this podcast, you've got a lot
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 5: of people who are really concerned about U.S. national security policy.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 5: So you start out with the post 9-11 world, which
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 5: basically was we got surprised by al-Qaeda. in a big
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 5: negative way. And I think there's a lot of people
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 5: who weren't alive for that. If you weren't alive for that,
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: you have a different perspective on it. That was a
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 5: terrifying moment. I was at the US Capitol when it happened.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 5: And so how did this happen? How can we prevent
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 5: it going forward? We basically decided, okay, there are armed,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 5: organized groups that are trying to kill us. So let's
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 5: figure out who they are and let's get them first, basically,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 5: was the philosophy. And I Not going to say I
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 5: was in no way opposed to that philosophy at the time. Now,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: what happened, though, was, okay, so it's al-Qaeda, it's Osama
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 5: bin Laden, he's coming for us, he's hanging out in
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 5: caves in Afghanistan, let's go get him. But then they've
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 5: got affiliates. They've got AQAP in Yemen. They've got al-Shabaab
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: in Somalia. They've got al-Qaeda in the land of the
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 5: Islamic Maghreb, which is basically West Africa. And then you've
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 5: got ISIS. And then you've got subgroups. And it metastasized
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 5: into this mission where an incredibly large number of people
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 5: could be categorized as an enemy combatant, just like a
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 5: division of armed troops coming across you on the battlefield.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 5: And that expansion got us into trouble. And we didn't
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 5: basically get the read on that soon enough. And it
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 5: metastasized into the mission in Iraq, an endless mission in Afghanistan,
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: trying to think that we'd always kill just one more person,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 5: then we'd absolutely be safe. And that was a mistake. Now,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 5: let's not underestimate that Post 9-11, we did stop al-Qaeda
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 5: and we did stop any more attacks in the U.S.,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 5: but it went too far. Now Trump is taking that
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 5: and just expanding it even further with this designation of
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 5: 24 narco-terrorist groups. Because once you call somebody a terrorist,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 5: then you can do whatever you want to them. But really,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 5: anyone trying to traffic drugs as a terrorist in the
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 5: same sense as Osama bin Laden, who was trying to
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 5: kill as many Americans as possible? I mean, drug dealers
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 5: are awful, horrible, terrible people. We have a massive drug
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 5: problem in this country. How to deal with it is
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 5: a policy we need to get after. It seems to
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 5: be as much of a demand problem as a supply problem,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 5: which lays out a whole bunch of different approaches. But
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 5: if you say that anyone trying to traffic drugs, anyone
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 5: affiliated with a group trying to traffic drugs is now
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 5: as legitimate a target as Osama bin Laden when he
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 5: was trying to kill as many Americans as possible, you've
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 5: just dramatically expanded the power. And also, let's make clear,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 5: there's no congressional authorization for this. Say what you want
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 5: about the global war on terror, it had congressional authorization.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 5: The president's doing this completely on his own, and for
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: the most part, without informing Congress, which brings us to
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 5: the next interesting part of this. Why? What's he trying
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 5: to accomplish? Is he really just hell-bent to stop the
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 5: scourge of drugs in America? Well, while he's pardoning the
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 5: former convicted, or sorry, the convicted, former president, convicted drug
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 5: dealer from Honduras, also pardoning Ross Albrecht, the Silk Road
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 5: crypto guy who was convicted of laundering billions of dollars
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 5: in drug money, it doesn't seem consistent. So what I
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 5: think he's trying to do is assert power, dominance, go
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 5: outside the law, what he's trying to do with the tariffs,
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 5: what he's trying to do with ICE terrorizing all of
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 5: our communities, sending troops into our cities to engage in
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 5: domestic law enforcement, all the programs that he canceled against
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 5: the law. He's trying to say, law doesn't apply to me.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 5: And I'm going to assert dominance, certainly over the law
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 5: in the country, but also over the Western Hemisphere. Let's
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 5: not forget the plans to invade Greenland and Panama and
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 5: annex Canada. This is the complete detonation of any principled
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 5: foreign policy by the United States of America. And I
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 5: think there's plenty of people going to be listening to
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 5: this podcast who are going to say, well, when did
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 5: we ever have principles? We did. We haven't upheld them
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 5: as well as we should have. It's gotten complicated and difficult.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 5: We need to do better. But Trump is taking us
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 5: to a place that we haven't been since the end
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 5: of World War II, which is the U.S. doesn't have principles,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 5: it just has interests. We're going to use our power
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 5: to grab as much of the world as we can,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 5: and the law doesn't really matter. To me, that's what
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 5: this is about much more than any desire to stop
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 5: drugs coming into the United States of America.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: So there's a lot there, and I want to get
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: to a lot of it. But just to start in
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: the more narrow sense of... He labels these organizations narco-terrorists,
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: has a bunch of individuals labeled as narco-terrorists. Have you
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: gotten any answers as to why the administration can't just
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: do what the Coast Guard has done for the last
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: forever and just interdict these boats, particularly since, I guess,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: we just seized a Venezuelan oil tanker, an oil tanker
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: off the coast of Venezuela? Like, why can't you just
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: do that with the drug boats?
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 5: We haven't gotten much of an answer. I mean, to
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: the extent I've heard an answer, it's like, well, that
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 5: just wasn't effective enough. And it's easier to blow a
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 5: boat up than it is to seize it. But that's
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 5: what's particularly disturbing going back to the second strike. I mean,
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 5: these two guys are sitting on top of a ship,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 5: a boat that is not operative, drifting with the current. Clearly,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 5: in that instance, interdiction seemed like a pretty simple option
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 5: that wasn't chosen. So no, I haven't gotten a good answer.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 5: And again, I keep coming back to this thing, and
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 5: I don't want to sound too like a conspiracy theorist
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 5: or Trump is evil, you know, bent on the destruction
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 5: of the world. But I do think a lot of
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 5: it has to do with trying to expand his power
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 5: so that it won't be questioned. You know, kill these people,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 5: then I'm free to go from there. I think that's
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 5: a lot of it. He wants to be unbound by
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 5: norms and laws and constitutions and all of that to
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 5: do what he wants.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: So- To the explanation that you guys got from Admiral Bradley,
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: was that more about, well, if the boat strikes themselves
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: are legal, then it follows that the second strike was
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: the right thing to do because the order was to
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: blow up the boats.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 5: There's a couple of problems with that.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: Um, but yes.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 5: And, and interestingly, as I, I literally just talked to
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 5: him like an hour ago, um, and he's a SOCOM commander,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 5: so it was not directly related, but we did talk
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 5: about it. And it's like, so first of all, is
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 5: it the drugs that are the legitimate target or is
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 5: it the individuals that are the legitimate target? You know,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 5: much has been made of, oh, the Washington Post saying
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 5: that Hegseth gave an order to kill everybody. And that
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 5: was clearly not true. It actually was pretty accurate. there
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 5: were 11 people on this boat and the order was
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 5: kill all 11, destroy the drugs. Now, when you say
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 5: kill everybody, it conjures up images of, you know, just
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 5: blow up the apartment building. Who cares? You know, in
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 5: this case, the 11 people who had been designated were
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 5: in a pretty confined area. You weren't going to, there
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 5: wasn't going to be collateral damage, but he gave the order,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 5: kill them all, kill them all and destroy the drugs.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 5: And yes, it, the decision on the second strike flows
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 5: from that. And is it, really lawful without congressional authorization
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 5: to just, and these are affiliates. I mean, how directly linked?
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 5: They're not the drug lords. They're not, you know, the
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 5: famous third person in charge of Al-Qaeda who we were
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 5: targeting constantly. No, there were 11 guys who were, you know,
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 5: foot soldiers in the effort. But yes, they targeted the drugs,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 5: and that definitely flowed into the decision to say, well,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 5: and this is one part that I have my serious
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 5: questions about, But they claimed that it was possible that
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 5: the drugs were still there underneath that portion of the
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 5: boat that still remained. I find that not terribly plausible
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 5: and something I want to investigate further. But, you know,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 5: if– and it's not clear either. Well, what if the
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 5: drugs weren't there? Are these two people legitimate targets? They
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 5: say no because this is the two people who survived
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 5: a month later in October and they were just floating
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 5: in the water apart from the drugs.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 4: But why?
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 5: I mean, why if they're legitimate targets– as humans, regardless
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 5: of the drugs. And that's why we need a lot
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 5: more investigation and explanation of what this policy is.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: Well, speaking of those other two survivors from another strike
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: in October, clearly the policy had changed. Something changed because
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: they didn't blow them out of the water. They didn't
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: kill them. But I'm sure you saw the New York
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: Times story from this week that said when they rescued
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: those survivors- the Pentagon lawyers reached out to the State
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: Department lawyers and asked if they could send them to
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: Seacott in El Salvador or basically anywhere but the United
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: States where if they entered the United States and entered
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: the U.S. judicial system, then the administration would have to
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: prove in court, might have to prove in court, that
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: there was evidence for the legal justification for the strikes
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: writ large. What did you make of that story?
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I think It really underscores the point. They
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 5: don't know exactly what they're doing or the legalities behind it.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 5: And as I asked in one briefing about a month ago,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 5: so basically you need less evidence to kill them than
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 5: you do to capture them. And what sense does that make?
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 5: But also they would say, and they have said, that
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 5: the policy didn't change, that the difference is that these
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 5: two were afloat in the ocean, clearly away from the drugs.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 5: There were no more drugs involved. as opposed to these
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 5: two who are on a boat that conceivably could have
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 5: had the drug still underneath the damaged boat. Yeah, I mean,
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 5: it's like it's funny. It's not funny because it's a
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 5: really serious business, but I'm a big sports fan. So
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 5: as he was explaining this to me, it reminded me
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 5: of listening to people in a replay official trying to
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 5: figure out if an NFL receiver had, quote, completed the catch,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 5: end quote. And when you're getting down into that level,
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 5: there is one thing that I think should come up
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 5: over the top of it. We're talking about killing people.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 5: So let's err on the side of not. All right?
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 5: And I understand. All right? You know, if you're out
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 5: in the field in Iraq with roadside bombs going off,
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 5: with people showing up with suicide vests, and does the
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 5: guy have a vest? Does he not have a– those
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 5: are much tougher calls. But we're talking about two guys,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 5: clearly unarmed, in the middle of the frickin' ocean. All right?
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 5: Clinging to the remains of a boat. Make the decision, no.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 5: These guys are clearly not a threat to anybody. Let's
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 5: not kill them.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: So you've been demanding answers. You've been trying to slow
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: this down. I know the annual National Defense Authorization Act
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: passed the House yesterday with a provision that would cut
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: Pete Hegseth's budget, travel budget, if he doesn't turn over
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: the footage of the second strike. Do you think that'll work?
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: Do you think you'll get the footage?
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 5: Probably not. The good thing about that is we got
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 5: something in there that says the United States Congress doesn't
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 5: approve of what you're not doing, okay, of the fact
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 5: that you're not releasing this. That, to me, is a
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 5: significant victory in this Congress with these Republicans. Now, I mean,
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 5: fencing his travel budget means it'll make it a little
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 5: bit inconvenient for him. I don't think he'll change. Sorry.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 5: I know this is serious business, but jokes occur to me.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 5: I've been joking that we should have fenced his hair
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 5: and makeup budget.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: That would have hit home. That would have hit home.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 5: Then we would have seen those videos. No, I mean,
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 5: but I think that the point really is important. The
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 5: Congress said, look, you are not complying with the law.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 5: And that's the other aspect, OK? Not complying with the
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 5: law in terms of when you have the authority to
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 5: kill somebody, but it goes beyond that. This Department of Defense,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 5: I mean, Hagseth didn't even keep secret information secret in Signalgate.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 5: Then he acts like it's fine. Of course we release
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 5: the targeting information and the timing of strikes before they happen.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: Who doesn't?
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 5: You know, it's just there is a lack of accountability
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 5: and a lostness about this group. And the one thing
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 5: that sticks in my crawl more than anything is this
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 5: whole Department of War nonsense. He is not the Secretary
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 5: of War. He is the Secretary of Defense because that's
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 5: what the law says. And you don't get to just
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 5: decide to ignore the law. And yet he is. You know,
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 5: I was out at the Reagan Defense Forum. Oh, he's
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 5: the Secretary of War. He's the Undersecretary of War. No,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 5: he's not.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: That's illegal.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 5: You know, we want the leaders of the highest level
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 5: of our government to at least care what the law is.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 5: I mean, you've worked in this area before. You know,
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 5: I mean, there's arguments about what can the executive branch
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 5: really do. But here, It's not a matter of argument.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 5: They're like, we do what we want. Don't talk to
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 5: me about the law. And I think that should alarm
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 5: every single American, regardless of your partisan affiliation.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: Do your options for dealing with this administration get better
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: if Democrats retake Congress in the midterms? What additional powers
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: would you have to either try to get answers from them,
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: on what's happening in the Southern Hemisphere, whether it's the strikes,
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: whether it's whatever they're doing in Venezuela, or anything else?
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 5: It gets better 1,000%. There are so many things we
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 5: can do, but it requires the majority. Sorry, a majority
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 5: of the House. I mean, we're seeing the Republican majority
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 5: fracture as we're passing repeated discharge petitions, which overcome the
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 5: will of the current majority. But we need a majority
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 5: of members to say, yes, we want that to happen.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 5: And if we have the majority, we can do that.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 5: I would also have subpoena power to get after these.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 5: I would have considerable more authority to fence larger chunks
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 5: of their funds. It's not a panacea. Don't get me wrong.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 5: It's not like they make me king for the day
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 5: if I become chairman again. We still have the Senate
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 5: to deal with. I mean, hopefully, we can pick up
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 5: the Senate. That's a more complicated thing, as you know.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 5: But yeah, if we got one body or the other,
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 5: we would have a lot more power to demand accountability.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 5: We'd still be a long way from it. George Will
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 5: wrote a column a couple of days ago that I
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 5: thought was pretty good, which was, it's hard to constrain
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 5: the military powers of the president. That's why you have
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 5: to be really careful about who you give the job to.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 5: And so certainly, Trump being back in the White House
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 5: is a huge problem. But yes, if we had the majority,
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 5: we would have considerably more power to hold him accountable.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: What's your latest thinking on what they're trying to do
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: in Venezuela? Obviously, they got stepped up a little bit
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: with the seizure of the tanker. So they decided to
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: levy some sanctions on Maduro's three nephews I saw today.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: Are you getting any more answers on this on Venezuela?
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: Are they getting briefed on it?
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 5: No, we're not getting clear answers on this. And when
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 5: we ask about it, and I was briefed by Secretary
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 5: Rubio and Secretary Hagseth a couple of weeks ago.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 4: Oh, no, no, no, no.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 5: Gosh, Venezuela, it's all about the drugs. We're not folks.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 5: We don't like Maduro. But you can see from what
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 5: the president has said and the actions he's taken that
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 5: he wants to drive Maduro from power. And he mentioned
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 5: Petro in Colombia yesterday. Look, part of the frustration, Trump
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 5: said what he was going to do. And he's been
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 5: very clear about this. And it's this 19th century way
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 5: of looking at the world where He wants to control
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 5: and dominate the Western Hemisphere. And I'm going to tie
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 5: this into Ukraine in just one second in a very
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 5: troubling way. And he thinks this is our area of control.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 5: And he wants to assert that control. And Maduro's not
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 5: playing ball. And you can see, you know, I can't
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 5: pronounce the guy's name in Argentina. But, you know, he's
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 5: a Trump guy. So here, $ 40 billion. We love you.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 5: In Honduras, you know, he got an election. So he
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 5: wants to influence that election to go his way. So
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 5: he pardons, you know, the president. It's all about do
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 5: you pledge allegiance to Trump? And right now, Maduro and
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 5: Petro are not. So he wants to try to force
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 5: them out in the same way that he'd like to
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 5: grab Greenland, that he wants to control the Panama Canal.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 5: that he wants to annex Canada. He has this vision
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 5: of the world that it's the 19th century all over again.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 5: It's really important.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: I forget.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 5: I read something that was sort of the history of
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 5: international law. And prior to World War II, we had
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 5: international law. And it basically was big, powerful countries were
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 5: free to grab whatever territory they could. They had to
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 5: talk to the other big, powerful countries before they did it.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 5: And there had to be some kind of little understanding here.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 5: And after World War II, we said, yeah, that's not
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 5: working out very well. World War after World War after
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 5: World War, the last one killed like 75 million people,
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 5: damn near exterminated the planet. Let's try a different approach.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 5: Let's try sovereignty. Let's try some international rule of law,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 5: the rule space system. And I know it's not perfect,
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 5: and I know we violated it from time to time,
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 5: but there was a general notion that that's what you're trying.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 5: Trump wants to get rid of all of that, and
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 5: that's why he's more on Putin's side in Eastern Europe
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 5: than he is on Ukraine's. Putin wants to grab Eastern Europe.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 5: That's fine. I got my thing. He's got his thing.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 5: That's OK. I mean, it's the only explanation for why
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 5: he's undermining Zelensky at every turn. I mentioned I was
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 5: at the Reagan Defense Forum, the whole peace through strength thing.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 5: You know, if we are, in fact, on Ukraine's side
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 5: in that war, which we should be, then what Trump
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 5: is doing is he's showing surrender through weakness. I mean,
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 5: who the hell goes into a negotiation and says, yeah,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 5: we'll lose it. We're getting our asses kicked over here.
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 5: Ukraine can barely hold on. So if he's on Ukraine's side,
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 5: he's an idiot. But I suspect that.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: He's really not.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 5: You know, he's more in the sovereignty schmoverty. We big,
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 5: powerful men get to do what we want.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: It also explains sort of his interactions with President Xi
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: in China as well and why they're not they don't
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: seem to be taking China as seriously as a national
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: security potential threat or at least competitor. And I'd probably
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: be worried if I was Taiwan. with Trump in power. But,
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, these aren't just, people should know, these aren't just, like,
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: your guesses on what they're up to. Like, they released
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: their national security strategy, Trump and Hegseth, at the Pentagon
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: this week. And it's very explicit by talking about a
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: Trump corollary to the Monroe Doctrine, in which he does see,
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: they do see themselves as sort of like, we get
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: to run the Western Hemisphere. And, you know, it's, it,
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: tracks with all of Trump's weird respect for all of
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: the other powerful dictators who happen to be right-wing dictators, right?
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: If you're more left-wing authoritarian, then he wants to oust you.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: But if you're more right-wing authoritarian, then he's your pal.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: How are you thinking about a democratic alternative to this
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: worldview that both gives people a different vision than Trump's,
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 2: but also... demonstrates to people that our party has learned
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: from our own past mistakes when it comes to dealing
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: with the rest of the world?
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 5: The two big things for me is, well, two, maybe three.
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 5: Let me get started here. I'll see how many I
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 5: come up with. But number one, let's get rid of
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 5: the idea of dominance altogether. I think this is where
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 5: we made a mistake. And at the end of the
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 5: Cold War, the end of the Cold War corresponding with
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 5: the first Gulf War was really unfortunate timing. The Soviet
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 5: Union collapsed, and then we showed up and took care
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 5: of Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait like that. And so
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 5: we got into our head the idea that, oh, we
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 5: can fix all of the world's problems. And there were
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 5: some who had malevolent reasons for that. A lot of
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 5: neocons just wanted to dominate for the sake of putting
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 5: more money in their pocket, for the sake of having power.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 5: But there were a lot of people on the left
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 5: that said, we can stop hunger, famine, civil war. We
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 5: can go into a place like Libya or Rwanda or
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 5: Somalia and fix things. We need to bury that idea.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 5: We can influence events. And the US should play a role.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 5: But we need to get rid of the no pure competitor.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 5: We must dominate. Because it's just not going to happen.
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 5: I mean, we live in a multipolar world. It's not
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 5: post-World War II when the entire rest of the industrialized
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 5: world had just been blown off the face of the map.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 5: We have competition. How do we manage that competition? So
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 5: get rid of dominance, number one. Number two, partners and allies.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 5: We're not going to do this alone.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: We're not going to meet.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 5: Our national security interests on our own. And Trump, of course,
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 5: is busily undermining that as well. But also, I think,
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 5: understand that the US should play a role in the world.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 5: And this is where I disagree with some of my
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 5: friends on the left who have a very harshly critical
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 5: assessment of what the US has been doing over the
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 5: course of the last 80 years. I think the record
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 5: is more mixed. But by and large, the US being
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 5: engaged in the world in the right way is a
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 5: positive thing. If we disengage, then brutal, aggressive autocrats like
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 5: Putin like what Iran has done in the Middle East,
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 5: they're going to prosper. So I think we need to
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 5: be engaged from a place of humility, cooperation, and working together.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 5: And then the final piece of this is when this
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 5: rules-based international order was set up, the world was an
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 5: entirely different place than it is right now. I think
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 5: we need to recognize that. You know, Brazil, India, even China,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 5: these are countries that have a bigger play and a
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 5: bigger stake. I don't want a confrontation with China, by
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 5: the way. And I think Trump's doing this for all
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 5: the wrong reasons. But the idea that we should tone
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 5: it down and try to find some way to get
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 5: along with China. I took one of the first congressional
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 5: trip to China two months ago and had high-level meetings
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 5: over there. We had a long way to go. But
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 5: the world is a better place in the next 50
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 5: years if the US and China can figure out some
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 5: way to peacefully coexist than if we're constantly bumping into
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 5: each other. And I think that's a pretty decent framework,
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 5: is We got work to do, but let's try to
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 5: have a rules-based international order. Now, when it comes to
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 5: human rights, when it comes to liberal democracy, we want
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 5: to promote that. And this is where I think Hegseth
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 5: fundamentally understands what a realist is. A realist basically believes
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 5: that liberal democracy, pluralism, greater freedom and opportunity for all
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 5: is a better way to live, but understands that we're
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 5: not in a position to force the entire world to
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 5: do that. And we occasionally have to work with people
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 5: who aren't going to meet that ideal. So we're going
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 5: to be realistic about that. What Hegseth and Trump are doing,
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 5: it's not realism. It's nihilism. It's power.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: It's no principles.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 5: Only, well, the phrase, I forget who used it, was,
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 5: you know, the strong take what they can and the
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 5: weak suffer what they must. That's the way the world was.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 5: That's not the way we want the world to be.
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 5: So I think we need to work off of that framework.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 5: There's all kinds of different little pieces of it. And
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 5: that's something I'm working on. because we got to win
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 5: in 26, we got to win in 28. There's a
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 5: whole lot of issues, like I said. I want to
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 5: have a plausible national security strategy for our coalition, which
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 5: our coalition is pretty much at each other's throats right now.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 5: I want to try to have that conversation, get that
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 5: figured out so we're in a stronger position in 26
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 5: and 28.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, it does seem like zero-sum, a view of
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: the world that is zero-sum politics, both abroad and it
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 2: matches what they're doing here and the policies they have here,
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: which is just the strong survive, survival of the fittest,
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: and the weak can just deal with it. There was
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: one more thing, but before I let you go in
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: the national security strategy, clearly this Western hemisphere, we're going
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: to run the Western hemisphere. It's in our sphere of
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: influence thing. It's power for power's sake. They also mentioned
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: quite a few times mass migration. And I do think
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: that some of what they're doing in the Caribbean and Venezuela, like,
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: you know, they want to say it's about drugs, but really,
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, Stephen Miller was talking about blowing
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: up boats back in 2018, reportedly. And so I do
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: wonder if some of this is meant as like a deterrent,
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: like we are going to stop the rest of the
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: world from even attempting to come to the United States.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 2: And partly in the national security strategy, they lay out
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: there like the era of mass migration is over, which
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: seems sort of ludicrous to me. And that like, you
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: can't really stop people from trying to migrate places, particularly
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: as we're, you know, we have conflicts all over the
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: world and climate change is going to start pushing people,
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: you know, towards other countries as well. And so I
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: wonder how you think about dealing with mass migration, the
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: reality of mass migration, knowing that, you know, we just
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: went through four years of Joe Biden, where we had
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: some real border challenges that in some ways led to
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: another Donald Trump term. And now we have this national
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: security strategy and a domestic policy that is focused primarily
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: on keeping immigrants out.
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a really good point. I hadn't thought about
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 5: it quite that starkly. Thanks for mentioning that because that
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 5: factors into the thinking as well. Several different pieces to that.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 5: I mean, first of all, and this is something I
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 5: left out in the national security strategy, development matters. If
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 5: you don't want people to migrate, help make sure that
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 5: all the wealth and opportunity isn't concentrated in just a
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 5: few places. Let's stop some of these. Don't get rid
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 5: of USAID. Don't starve hungry children to death across the world.
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 5: Actually engage in trying to create a more prosperous world
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 5: for them so that they don't have to migrate to
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 5: survive is number one. Number two, I do think we
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 5: as Democrats, we do have to have some control on
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 5: our borders. And I think that hurt us. We can't
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 5: take everyone who's desperate. We need to have a rational
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 5: asylum system, a rational immigration system. And certainly part of
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 5: that is a pathway to citizenship for the undocumented population
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 5: that we have invited into this country and depended upon
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 5: their labor for decades to now cast them out into
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 5: the world as cruel, wrong, and bad for the country.
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 5: But we do have to have a border security plan.
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 5: But the other part of this that I think is
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 5: really important that just screams out in that national security
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 5: strategy is is it's really racist, okay? Tip of the
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 5: hat to Trump, you know, sort of like pulling off
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 5: the mask in Pennsylvania yesterday. Yeah, we want people from
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 5: Sweden and Norway, not from those shithole countries. You know,
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 5: he just said the quiet part out loud as the
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 5: cliche goes. And I think that racism is a huge
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 5: problem because what does it mean to be an American? Well,
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 5: you're an American if you believe in the basic liberal
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 5: democracy values here. It doesn't matter what religion you have.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 5: That was sort of our principle. And now what Trump
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 5: and these people are trying to say, no, American, you
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 5: better be a straight white guy. Well, we need some
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 5: women too, but certain designated roles in that regard. I
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 5: don't think that's a message that's going to be unifying
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 5: in the world if we pit races and religions against
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 5: each other in a death struggle to the end. I
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 5: think migration shouldn't be based on religion and race and
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 5: all of that. We do have to control it, like
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 5: I said, but Understanding this white Christian nationalist thing, that's
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 5: another connection between Trump and Putin. We've got to nip
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 5: that in the bud because that fundamentally undercuts both our
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 5: principles and our values, and it leads to a lot
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 5: more conflict. If you tell the rest of the world,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 5: if you don't have the right religion, you don't look
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 5: the right way, then you're not going to be allowed
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 5: to live. Well, they're going to fight. So we better
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 5: have a more inclusive world going forward.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: Congressman, thank you as always for joining Pod Save America.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: Appreciate you coming on.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I love what you guys do. I appreciate you
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 5: giving me the chance and got a lot of work
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 5: to do. Got to win next year and got to
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 5: win in 28.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: For sure, for sure. Well, good luck out there. Take care.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: That's our show for today. Thanks to Adam Smith for
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: coming on. Love when we'll be back in the feed
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: on Sunday with a conversation with J.B. Pritzker about the
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: ice madness in Chicago, redistricting, and the best and worst
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: Star Wars movies.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 3: I'm excited for this.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: That was very important to him to love it.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: When he found out that J.B. Pritzker, He's a Star
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: Wars guy.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 3: I've never seen him more aggressively pursue an interview than
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 3: after that.
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's also because J.B. Pritzker likes gambling and
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: goes to Vegas and is a big steakhouse guy. He's
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: hitting all the stuff for Lovett. Lovett's very excited about this.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 3: When he was on the podcast in Chicago during the convention,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 3: he told Tommy and I that he and his buddies
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 3: do a steakhouse crawl.
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 3: I don't know whether he's going to be the best
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 3: president or the best presidential candidate. He might be the
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 3: best hang.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: Well, we'll see. We'll love it.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 3: It'll tell us.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: Tune in Sunday for that, and then we'll have a
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: new Pod Save America episode for you again on Tuesday. Bye, everyone.
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  Speaker 2: episode and everything we do here at Cricket. Pod Save
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  Speaker 2: America is a Cricket Media production. Our producers are David Toledo,
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  Speaker 2: Emma Illick-Frank, and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari.
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