Latest / Becoming Flame: Where Sensuality, Sovereignty, and Sacred Power Ignite / Why High-Achieving Women Struggle to Receive Love: Rose Wild on Soft Power & Devotion
Transcript
- Kait Tregenza: Rose, welcome to the podcast. Welcome to Becoming Flame. Rose Wild: Thank you, love, it's great to be here. Kait Tregenza: So it's a big conversation for us today. think I ⁓ having, you know, while I love having a conversation that is so black and white, ⁓ think this conversation with us today is going to be very nuanced. It's going to be ⁓ all the various different shades of gray. Really, suppose what I brought you on to the podcast. ⁓ learn about ⁓ For people who are called highly capable, achieving, ⁓ know, there's many to how you become achieving. You can become high achieving out of pure trauma, learning to earn love, that love is a based what you do, based on how you please other people, based on all of these factors that external. to you and your body, right? And so we've, so many of us who would be listening to the podcast at the age that we are, be have normally into a society where you were really coming this, this sort of like third, fourth wave feminism where you, you know, watched people like Carrie Bradshaw put herself so far down the ⁓ on a truly narcissistic man's list of people that were never important to him. And you watched her do backflips trying to get this guy. She had a successful career. She had at least expensive tastes. So somehow she was paying for it. So in many ways she was this highly capable woman who valued herself so lowly. We had Samantha who was really, really successful career wise and had absolutely no self-worth when it came to like, you know, believing that she was worthy of love. And, you know, friends, we had the same thing. And so you had all of this nineties, early two thousands pop culture that really told you women can do it all. Women are independent, highly capable. I don't need no man. come into this world, you know, you go into that thinking that everything's a nineties rom-com. Rose Wild: Mm. Kait Tregenza: come to this realization point of like, ⁓ my God, being highly capable Like you could just go to do it all. You're gonna do everything. And on top of that, if go into having a partnership with someone, then you have to do that as well. And it's like, there's so cultural ⁓ expectation as around how a woman has been formed into this hyper capability, hyper independence. ⁓ Rose Wild: Oof. Kait Tregenza: And so I don't think it's as easy as saying like, just undo it, right? Cause to which part, where do I start? Which do I pull? And so I would love to start the conversation with when a woman enters your world ⁓ she's come from all of that society, feminism, that, Rose Wild: Yeah. Mm. Kait Tregenza: you know, stand on your own two feet. She's coming from hyper capability. She's earning her own money. She can do all of that. yet there's this, even she's partnered, there's this sense of like, I'm alone. She might not be lonely, but it's like, I'm alone in this world. How do we even begin to with this woman? I think that's a great place to start this podcast. Cause Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: anyone dropping in, at least we can enter this world that you've created and start to unravel a little bit. Rose Wild: That's a great question. Yeah. I think that there's women, I think it's important, first of all, to acknowledge the beauty and the power that comes with being a capable woman. Because there's a reason we develop like that. We become the man our life because there's an absence of... know, healthy ⁓ ⁓ presence healthy masculinity that does ⁓ But it's also, you know, it's not common for us to have that as a model. So we kind of overextend as women. We become ⁓ over-functioning. And think that that's the first thing to recognise when a woman enters in is that, I'm doing way more than I should be. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Hmm. Mm. Rose Wild: And I deserve to be met. So as a sense of claiming that there's possible and a desire to experience something new. And also as a high achieving person, it's very hard to admit. I know myself because I was, you know, really good at life, really good at doing postgraduate degree, taking myself to the side of the world on my own. I was good at getting what I wanted. But when it came to love. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Hmm. Rose Wild: I just wasn't really that good at it. wasn't really manifesting kind of guy that I actually wanted to be with. I always ended up being in the driver's seat or just not like a woman. I think that that's the most important thing is to admit that there is an area of your life. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Rose Wild: that needs some love and some development. And it's not through the formula that got you success in other areas of your life. you know, if you use force and kind of like very linear moving towards penetrative energy that is actually very masculine in love. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Rose Wild: you will get polarity, but it will not be the polarity that you want. You will end up with a very feminized kind of man. ⁓ it ⁓ ⁓ it's frustrating when you're in that loop, because it feels, it really does feel like where are all the men? Where are all the masculine men? Like, do they even exist? Like what's going on? But it does. ⁓ we, when we shift as women. Kait Tregenza: Yeah, we see that a lot, right? We see the role reversal all the time. Rose Wild: and we come into our true nature, is not just softness, right? balance, it's harmony. Then we also become an energetic match for the men are out there, because they are. Kait Tregenza: So does this work if you're not a soft woman? I mean, you can be feminine and not soft, right? ⁓ maybe worthwhile, like really talking about soft what that means and how that even if you happen be more of that fierce commanding, very feminine still, but more that, Rose Wild: Thank Yeah. Kait Tregenza: you know, stronger, know, dark feminine sort of smile. Rose Wild: Yeah, well I think it's important to recognise from my perspective anyway that feminine has a thousand faces, right? So many us are more comfortable in one expression of the feminine. So for me for years, the fiery, the wild woman, you know, very primal and expressive and all this stuff ⁓ was actually, was that I was comfortable with. It was the more subtle aspects that I personally had to work harder to connect with, believe it or not. Maybe not now, it's like I that my expression is often devotional well, but it was not always like that. So what I would say is because you as something, as a woman, does not mean that you do not hold any of your own expression of a different quality. Softness to one woman maybe look like something like a trad wife, whatever Instagram situation. And softness someone else may just be like taking a breath out and letting herself take little bit less, more time to do something, right? So I think that... It's not that women aren't soft. just not had chance or permission or possibility of experiencing that yet. Kait Tregenza: And so what does devotional mean then in that context? be a devotional woman. Rose Wild: think devotion for me means that everything that I do, the actions that I do, are going up to this power, that is for you as a woman. For me, in devotional it's that ⁓ the relationship is sacred. And so everything that I do, whether it's mundane, even small things, I am offering up. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Rose Wild: and service to on the altar the love, right? So that before. Kait Tregenza: Is this a love to self or love to this partner or if you're saying like, yeah, okay. Rose Wild: ⁓ Both. for me, and I think it's essential for women before, if you are open to union, is that you've come into that before. You don't wait for someone else to give you permission and like, you know, it's a way of life, a way of treating Yes, even in those moments, you don't feel like it. And it's not even always like buying flowers and laying altar and lighting the candles. It's actually up for yourself in the things that. Kait Tregenza: Got it. Rose Wild: you don't really want to do, but doing it from a place of, I've got you, you know, and this is inner union thing of your inner masculine is showing up for your feminine before he arrives. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: What do you mean? Like, give us an example, give us some context to that. Rose Wild: Honestly, sometimes it's not even that pretty. I think the masculine stuff is like, know what, you're going to do what you say you're going to do. I said that we would, said that we would like, you know, ⁓ this much money or put this much money aside to this. And we're going to do that because we, we honor our word. We're in integrity, right? Or that, you, are in a masculine protects their, your when you have your, your moon or your cycle. Kait Tregenza: Just be integral. Yeah. Rose Wild: It's like, no, will you say no now? The boundaries are clear because this is our sacred time to go within and to connect with ourself. So in my eyes, this is the inner union of the inner masculine supporting your feminine. Kait Tregenza: So it's almost like you have to get really clear, whether you're in relationship with yourself or you're when you're, or whether you're trying to bring in into your life. And honestly, any relationship is probably, you know, part of this conversation is you to be really clear on what, what you want in your what you want that life to look like, to feel like, be like, how does it look day to day? How does it feel day to day? What are the kinds of interactions you're having? What are the kinds of conversations? long does that person stay? You know, all of these things, you set that up and then you can put boundaries and limits and, and, rules, whatever you want to say. And then holding that is part of the way that you show up for yourself in devotion. Rose Wild: Yes, I would say so. example, ⁓ I met Valentin, I've really seen myself a mother. It's been big part of, seen as part my path. And I thought, well, how I claim this ⁓ of a mother in a way? Because I don't want to mother a man. I don't want to mother my friends. It's not really the energy that is helpful. So I Kait Tregenza: Mm. Rose Wild: adopted a dog, my dog Wolfie, and everyone said, don't adopt a husky, he's crazy, you're on your own, you're better off with like a chihuahua or something. And I did it anyway, because I'm a bit like that. And it was the best thing ⁓ I have done because I felt that... through him I was also in devotion, right? I was able to step into an energy, not waiting for circumstances to decide that for me. It's like, this is part of who I am and I'm gonna move towards that in whatever means that I have available for me now. ⁓ I think that that's a piece, I would say that in women that I... Kait Tregenza: Mm. Rose Wild: that I speak with that they struggle with. It's almost like staying in the maiden, in the maiden archetype, for the prince to arrive, to initiate them into the next stage of life, when actually he's waiting for a queen. So we need to kind of do that ⁓ to midwife ourselves into the next stage of womanhood. Kait Tregenza: Mm-hmm. Prince Charming. Right. Hmmmm We need updated fairy tales is the point. Rose Wild: Yeah, I think so. ⁓ Exactly. Yeah. This part of the issue, right? Kait Tregenza: No more Cinderella, no more Snow White. And so what does that actually like that's different for anyone who's never heard of this concept of like, you know, I need to upgrade myself into the queen ⁓ I be in order to step into the relationship with the king that I'm wanting. What that shift from to queen? Cause I think that we've heard of maiden to mother, but what is maiden to queen look like and feel like? Rose Wild: Yeah. Yeah. For me, The maiden, I love the maiden by the way. It's like every month in my inner spring, I'm in my inner spring now. So I'm like really in that maiden curiosity energy and there's something so beautiful about it. It's so playful, so exploratory, but she is, she's not fully formed yet. She's like a bud, a flower bud, right? And then the queen is, for me, is like the highest expression of the fullness of a woman in the sense of she actually accepts responsibility. Whereas the maiden and the princess doesn't want responsibility. She wants to outsource that to someone else while simultaneously outsourcing her power. So the shift is internal into like, am in... Kait Tregenza: Right. Right. Rose Wild: sovereign, I take responsibility for my actions. I am able to do things better. I hold myself accountable. show up and I myself with grace. So it's not, it sounds that I think that the queen archetype has been glamorized a little bit in my perspective, because she's super, I don't know if one wants to be the queen, right? But the of showing up is like, It's the responsibility aspect, I believe. Kait Tregenza: So going back to these highly capable woman, ⁓ woman that we're talking to and about, I would say that she has an incredible to hold responsibility and hold itself accountable. Does she go far? Does everything ⁓ now become she's for? Is that part of the issue that she stepped into that queen? ⁓ Rose Wild: Yeah. And then it's... Kait Tregenza: too well. She's now, she's now the sovereign over all the subjects and anyone who's in her reign her responsibility in addition to everything that is only hers to take care of. Rose Wild: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely, this is such a good point. know, Maes have established this responsibility, also the queen archetype, but can you let people in? Or is there like a barbed wire fence around your queendom that just prevents people, you know, you've got this entourage of protection around your heart and then no one, even a suitor, a king, a potential king. cannot get through because there is no space, there is no throne next to the Queen. So there is this subtle balance and this is what soft power to me is. It's this ability to not for your power and your fullness and your capability. Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Rose Wild: but also having a soft front and like a strong spine. So it's the ability to receive, rest into the back of your body, to feel, to be led by your feelings and to also allow yourself to be vulnerable. Because if we can't do that, then we can't have a relationship that we want. It's easier to stay in the position of being the one that's... the leader actually. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. And taking responsibility from everyone from afar and standing on the balcony and just being like, and I can understand in that perspective, you know, having been there myself, I can't take on any more relationships now, intimate or because I don't have any bandwidth. I can't take on ⁓ more responsibility you or more accountability. I can't clean up any more messes. And when you into this, ⁓ Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: patterning and your, your is like, I'll take of everything for you. And that's proceeding. attract those kinds of people who need. Cleanups on aisle four, you know, and their whole life is aisle four. ⁓ And it becomes like exhausting. I remember a friend mine years ago was like, my God, Kait, you've got to shut down the animal shelter. Like you just collect. Rose Wild: So, really... Yeah. Kait Tregenza: You, you, you collect of these, you stray cats and dogs that just need, you know, to be fed and nursed back to health. And once they have been, once they siphon off all of your energy, they're off to go. ⁓ And can get this really depleted cycle where it's like, it is not worth me ever being in a relationship with, with anyone. ⁓ me, I so bad that I was like colleagues. Rose Wild: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: friends, know, family, ⁓ And it was like, I hollowing myself because I was capable. Because, and there's this tax, right? It's like, ⁓ she's giving that out for free. Yeah, I'll take that. And so it's ⁓ this loop. And what would be like, Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Kait Tregenza: I know what I did, but I don't know that it was necessarily the most effective thing to get out of that. I'm trying think of like the absolute first thing. I think the first thing was like awareness of this and just like the awareness of where all my energy was going and really mapping out my relationships of time energy ⁓ Rose Wild: What did you do? Yeah. Kait Tregenza: you know, support all of these sort of currencies that you want flowing between two individuals in a relationship of any kind. And you're like, okay, well, if my outlet is so much bigger than my inlet, I'm going to first have a conversation with this individual. The likely scenario, at least as it happened with me, was like single one of my relationships. was the same kind of relationship in various different domains of my life, right? So I was like, okay, useful information. I know what my pattern in relationships is because it's showing up in every single kind of relationship. It's not just ⁓ is occurring in intimate relationships, but my friendships are great. was every single relationship. And that really stemmed from like how relationships were defined for me in my familial Rose Wild: and Do it. Kait Tregenza: intimate relationships, particularly with my parents. And that stemmed out from there. so I think mapping that out was really useful at first, ⁓ that conversation about, you willing to shift into a new dynamic? The answer, like spoiler alert is usually no. There's a, there's a valuable exchange that the other person is getting. And if that person's not willing to like, you know, take your relationship to a more sovereign, liberated sort of free state. then those people will naturally exit or be exited from your life. And then I think the next step for me was like, so what do I want in relationships? What is it now that I'm carving out space for? And then in trying do that, realized I had skipped a step because I was attracting the same people again. ⁓ And... Rose Wild: Okay. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: That's when I started to realize, okay, the pattern needs to shift in me. And that was actually really around understanding. I met a new person and you start to come cognizant of this and hyper aware of this stuff when you're doing it, right? So would meet new people and I would ⁓ all a sudden be offering support or help in some particular way. ⁓ Rose Wild: Mm. Kait Tregenza: ⁓ hello person that I just met 30 seconds ago. Yes, I can help you move house. What? so it was a really ⁓ come to Jesus moment, I think for me in my life of going, I, need just learn that I am enough as I am. Rose Wild: Hmm. Kait Tregenza: And that was actually stripping all relations back and like dating myself and being so intentional with like who I be and what I get from myself. I think I did it in a really long and convoluted way. And I'm sure that you have a, I you have like a better of skills to offer. ⁓ Rose Wild: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, that's a real evolution, relational evolution. And have a bit of a funny stance on this, bit of a curve ball, but I think it's so powerful and it's a bit of an accelerator. It is parasite cleansing. Kait Tregenza: ⁓ yeah. Rose Wild: because, and I'm not advocating for, by the way, if you're new to cleansing, please don't just jump into some random parasite cleanse. I am not a doctor, but I also know that when I got to the parasite round of cleansing, absolutely do your liver, you do all of the other things, because you need to make sure the detox pathways are open, right? So. I started this parasite cleanse and I didn't realize how deeply connected these parasites were to my relationship patterns. And then I was having these wild experiences where I would have die off symptoms of those of you who haven't had it before. It's, know, you feel kind of fluid, you feel a off, feel like it poisons, like, oh shit, I'm moving something through my body. So this would start to happen. And at a certain point you get familiar with it because you you kind of know how your body responds to this process then I would have happen in a relationship either a friendship or something from an ex-partner where either it would blow up they would demand something from me because I had the same pattern as you. So I was like over, over giving. didn't realize it was also in friendships, but it was. So it's over extending and you're basically a good host, right? For the parasitic energies. Kait Tregenza: Mm-hmm. Rose Wild: whether that's, not every person a parasite, but it's all interrelated from my perspective. And as I cleared away the actual relational entanglements, had those asserted my boundaries, some of those relationships ended quite abruptly, quite a lot them actually, during that parasite cleanse. I then physically saw parasites ⁓ leaving. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Wow. Rose Wild: so it this feedback process of like, wow, we really ⁓ have other influences moving through us that are not necessarily our soul. They're pulling from us, whether that be what's coming from the sky or the parasites what we consume and we watch and the programming we receive about being afraid of men. I see it all as being part of the same brainwashing and control methods. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. I think it's such a good reminder after my first boyfriend turned into like an eight year relationship. Like I'd never had a boyfriend then, know, mid twenties meet this guy we were in together for eight years and left him. ⁓ And did a punch of karma. I went to India and did it for 28 days. I think it was the biggest and best reset. of my life. was like to have this clear vessel at that time. I don't think that I have been at any other time in my life. And it's just like reminding me that I've also done a parasite cleanse with a naturopath that went very badly. Like the binder didn't work. And then it was like more that came. the ⁓ happened me in my life where it was all of a sudden it was like, my God. ⁓ Rose Wild: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: what is around me. was like to have the clarity one ⁓ protocol really well and the like overwhelm of one going really badly, you start to actually understand what you just said. I've experienced like the two extremes of how that physically in your life. And it's like, Rose Wild: Mm. the Kait Tregenza: It's actually something that people probably don't always the dots on. Rose Wild: No, you can't. Thank you for sharing that actually, because that's a really important point for anyone who's listening and is interested in parasite cleansing. I did the same thing with a funny doctor in Mexico. was there for 21 days. It was like I didn't eat any foods. I was on juices for however but... Kait Tregenza: Yeah Rose Wild: we need to do it longer, right? You need to do it for three months at least because of the cycle of the eggs. So what ended up happening for me also was they and I started to get more symptoms until I went back and did it properly. So yeah, you say that you felt that energy of other people, it kind like people wanting something from you? ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Yeah. So was two things. was firstly, I had this ⁓ amazing ability to actually understand how many of my thoughts were not my thoughts because I had like severe, I say they were like suicidal thoughts, but they were like these intense fear of Rose Wild: you Kait Tregenza: dying all of a sudden. So it almost like the opposite of suicide. It was like trying to cling onto life. I was really, scared of dying. And that was really weird for me because I think that death is like, I have no fear death. like, very eager to die. Reset, please. This is not I'm going to come back when everything's reset. No. And so all of a sudden I had, Oh my God, I couldn't breathe. Like, and I was in this like, I was like living up here and my like, Oh my God, I can't breathe. can't like this kind of like feeling for a really like extended period of time, like probably like a month, six weeks. And around that time, there was a little bit of a change in my stools, but really what it was is Rose Wild: Hmm. Kait Tregenza: It was a main change in my appetite. and then I started having really unique pains various parts of like my lower back, like, ⁓ and, ⁓ as had explained to me at the, ⁓ you know, by who works with fail protocols, it's like the borrowing and it was, ⁓ and then it became like, am now in a worse Rose Wild: Mm. Thank you. Kait Tregenza: position to rid myself of these parasites, then I just maybe not to clear them poorly. ⁓ So think people need to really understand. And I went with a naturopath and did what I thought was, you know, the right way of doing this. ⁓ But I think it's really important to go with someone who's a specialist in parasite cleansing, who really, really does this day in and day out. And it's going to have, you know, Rose Wild: Mm. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: knows exactly what to do if you're supposed to do colonoscopies or, you ⁓ whatever in addition to, to just the cleansing or just, know, whatever you're taking internally. but yeah, I think this is this, this conversation in general, when you were trying to clean up your life, taking like a deep cleanse to your body, I did not predict this part of our conversation going. So this is, ⁓ this is cool. Rose Wild: Okay. Yes, yeah, and I also love to work with the lymphatic system for that reason as well, you know, because it is the elimination of waste. So in my self-powered challenge on day one, we just go in with this, you know, because if we're not working with the physical body and letting stuff go, then we're also not working. We're missing a big piece of the jigsaw puzzle. Yeah, but Kait Tregenza: Right. So you're sort of saying like, it's all well and good to talk about somatic or energetic release, but needs to go in tandem with a physical body release and a cleanse and a, and a lymphatic drainage and all of those things. Rose Wild: Coming back. Mm. I believe so, yeah. I have a practice I teach, it's called somatic alchemy, and is a way of transmuting that density into meeting it, giving it expression, and then moving it a different state, moving it into a different emotion, a different way of being. And that, in ⁓ my experience, in combination with the physical cleansing, the lymphatic massage, the movement, everything, it really helps for us to shift relationships. patterns as well. it's done as a regular practice in the morning or what have you. Kait Tregenza: And so there any particular place in the body that you think the relationship pattern is more held than others? mean, the lymphatic system is a large system. So ⁓ do you get your clients to mostly focus? ⁓ Rose Wild: Yeah, true. I think, I mean, the womb, womb and the heart, the two, you energy centers that we hold. Kait Tregenza: Mm-hmm. Rose Wild: We don't even know we're holding it because a lot of the time with the heart is actually armoring and numbness, right? The layers of calcification that can happen we have a heartbreak. When we have a heartbreak, sometimes you forget the pain that you experienced if it hardened, if you had that idea of like, this will happen to me again. And then we become stronger. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Yeah, I vow this will never happen again. And what's the easiest way to do that? Never fall in love again. Rose Wild: Yeah, I will never put myself at risk again. I will never become vulnerable again to risk. ⁓ And I think that all do that to a greater or lesser extent. And then that's what they do in the heart, ⁓ semantics with the heart. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Yeah. Rose Wild: also doing the work physically to go into your and say, okay, how have I built fortresses around myself in my time, in the things I do, the way I do things that doesn't allow anyone in. Kait Tregenza: Mm. And I guess, am I willing to build safety there now to try? Rose Wild: and Yeah. And they call that like opening with discernment, you know? It's not we don't need to romanticise, like living life with this open, endlessly open heart. I think we're meant to be weathered by heartbreak. We're meant to be, we're meant to get more specific about what it is that we are a yes for and what it is we're a no for, so that we can really have the capacity to open to that full yes and honour when it's not, it's not it. Kait Tregenza: I suppose again, you've described the difference between shifting from a maiden into a queen in a different, a different way, right? That, that and that innocence of youth, while beautiful, doesn't serve in our queen, you know, in queen era. That's a queen who is truly in charge of herself, land, empire discernment and ⁓ needs ⁓ like that wisdom that's unfortunately earned from Rose Wild: Yeah, and it makes me think about self-worth as well, you know. I speak to a lot of women who say that they want to meet. their husband or they want to be a mother, they want to be in union, they want to feel, they want to experience these things and yet when it comes to dating their behaviour is still reflecting that of the maiden, of moving fast, getting wrapped up in the chemistry, the electricity, the attraction, the words even of what he has to say. Whereas the Queen doesn't operate from that, she takes her time. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Rose Wild: She observes her sensation as attraction, but as a compatibility. You can say the words, but are the actions actually in integrity with the words? Only time tells with that. And I think that dating from that perspective is radically different. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Mm. Rose Wild: you know, to versus like, we don't even know what we want. But yeah, I now have feelings. How many times in my 20s would get like kind of wrapped up in a situation a guy who was like, ⁓ we'll have a serious conversation later on, you know, about alignment, about are we on the same page, about what our values are? Do you want this? I want that. And I think the Queen is so clear. Kait Tregenza: Hmm Right. Rose Wild: the beginning she establishes that before she opens. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Yeah. So it's not about avoiding a heartbreak. It's avoiding heartbreaks that didn't need to happen because they were always going to happen. That person was never going to be. And you're wasting your time, you're wasting your energy, all of these other things, right? And so I think that's a really important thing. It's interesting that you said self-worth as that underlier, because I think Rose Wild: Yes. Kait Tregenza: It's also the understanding worth, yes, 100%, but then the expression and the holding of that needs to come from that place of that queen power. So it like they go in hand, like you probably can't get that power without understanding that, that inherent worth that you are. Rose Wild: is good. Yeah, and the need to be cho- like we need to let go of this need to be chosen and this need to- I think this is where the whole idea of decentering men topic comes on. I'm not personally a fan of this term because I think it- I don't know, I don't think it's necessary some ways, ⁓ I understand also that this- this impulse would come from not needing to be chosen or waiting for a man to give you what it is that you need. Kait Tregenza: that need to be chosen. Rose Wild: but at the same time allowing him in, even though you can do it, doesn't mean you have to do it. It's something so delicious about feeling like, know I've got me, but I'm going to let him do it anyway. You know? Kait Tregenza: Yeah. think the challenge for someone who I'm thinking about your clients, how the kinds of women that listen to this podcast, you know, there's incredible amount of emotional maturity, understanding of self, you know, it's not just like, ⁓ I'm highly capable, masculine driven woman. There's a lot of nuance there. There's a lot of, emotional repertoire as well, know, lived through wisdom, but also through innate gifts. And this, know, image that I have in my mind of saying, well, I didn't to decenter men because men were never the center, but I'm still deeply yearning to be is that just like, Disney conditioning or does everyone just deeply, deeply want to be chosen no matter how they know that they in themselves are a true catch? Like, is there a part of us that just always wants to be, you know, proposed to and adored all of that and like chased after and stuff, you know, how does it play together? Rose Wild: Yes. ⁓ I still feel like that and ⁓ union, you know. ⁓ still want to feel pursued, ⁓ ravished, ⁓ honoured. yeah, like the prize. Of course, we all have that desire, but from a place of, from a need of validation. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Yeah. Mmm. Rose Wild: I think there's a difference, there's a subtle difference between needing to be chosen and needing attention from men, the masculine, versus wanting your man, wanting to choose your man and him choose you, to devote fully and to give all the love that you have and to receive all the possible love that there is out there. Like that is a beautiful thing. And I think that is almost, I am... Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Rose Wild: There is the kind of wounded side of the need for validation. Sometimes it makes women sometimes give themselves way too early as well, I believe. That's a bit of controversial thing for me to say, but I've never lived through that myself, you know? It's like this sense of, I just in it. So I give of myself, but actually, you know... When you're treated like the prize, don't feel like that. He will honor your pacing. You know when a man is serious about you in that sense. So I think that the desire to be chosen to, we could say chosen, I would also say like claimed, the desire to be claimed by your beloved. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Rose Wild: I don't think that ever goes away, at least for me it's still very much there. There's new layers to it, depths to it, that unfold. Kait Tregenza: But it's how you want that and it's how you accept that. Okay. I think that's understood. I want to go back to this heartbreak because I... Rose Wild: Mm. Kait Tregenza: I think there's a lot of nuance in opening yourself back up to being in devotion to a man I think so many women these days are really experiencing some truly things happening to them. That's harder. And especially if compounds, especially if you get into your ⁓ 30s or ⁓ and you've only this cycle. Rose Wild: I'm here. Kait Tregenza: wanted to go back to that heartbreak because I think I'm just thinking about my own collection of girlfriends who some have been very lucky in love early on, been in long term, very successful unions, no real issues. Others who can be the sweetest, most loving, most giving women who also know their worth, who also know that they're a real prize. And yet... get in one after another after another of these truly toxic not just toxic as in like it was a bad time for both of you or more. was like a bit weird. Like ⁓ kinds of relationships that keep you looping for like replaying things. Like what did he mean by that when he said that that one time five years You know, like this kind of that really, has got them replaying conversations, trying to work out where did I miss red flags? did I accept that? Is anything he ever said true? there's difference there between the heartbreak and then the of self-trust to really go, okay, I I've understood this. Rose Wild: Mm. Kait Tregenza: so that I can start to dismantle it, so that I can start to unravel what that was and into my identity and look into what I'm doing as a result or looking the patterns that I'm in. ⁓ I think that there's this part where sometimes women really don't understand what happened ⁓ that keeps them in this loop of like, well, so if don't know what happened, how do I change it in order to assume that it's not gonna happen again? And as it keeps happening, ⁓ Rose Wild: it. Kait Tregenza: instead of them saying I'm in this pattern or I'm in this attraction to this, think they make it about themselves or they make meaning who they are and men are all the same, ⁓ not just they're dating this particular niche of men ⁓ and then make that mean really permanent themselves and so I guess the question here is about Rose Wild: Yeah. you Kait Tregenza: How do you step out of that self trust diminishing loop and start to rebuild trust in yourself again so that you can actually out you might be worthy of a man that matches your ultimate dreams? Because think that can be sometimes the really big leap to make where you're like, I just, I'm, this is my lot in life. I don't deserve anything better. This is what I'm getting. ⁓ And don't think that. Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: has to be the end of the story. Rose Wild: ⁓ my gosh, no. I mean, I will share a little bit of my story. Before I met Valentin, went through such a painful ending of ⁓ breakup with an And that a relationship. And it was ⁓ battle, a spiritual I would say, with a narcissist. Anyone who has been through will know what it takes to actually be the one that says that you leave. And ended in betrayal. He betrayed me in a very public way. it was, it was a, it was, there was, it was a lot of pain, a lot of. everything around it. But I chose at the end of that relationship, even in the pain, even in the disbelief and the mistrust of like, how could I not have seen this coming? I chose, I could feel something moving I decided it was spiraling up. It wasn't that it was gonna go round again. Because this is when we get those, I believe those loops in relationships is when we were avoiding something. If we're really honest with, I believe we're really honest with ourselves is because Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Okay. Rose Wild: We're avoiding a little wound that we don't want to look inside of ourselves. And so it being outsourced externally somehow. when have the courage, I went deep into my own abandonment wounds at the end of that relationship. I ended it went so into like, okay, what was it that kept me there? Kait Tregenza: Mm. Rose Wild: What was it that actually made it hard for me to leave? And therein was the answers that I was needing to see, it was not easy. And you ⁓ four months I met Valentin. So I think that it's important for to recognize that we are powerful beyond what we actually conceive as women, you know? Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Rose Wild: and sounds like a cheesy thing to say and an easy thing to say but it can ⁓ can happen fast once the once the kind of embodiment and shift happens. doesn't have to take years of analysis and ⁓ deep into like what happened here, what happened there. I that it's like, you know, ⁓ in there's an alchemy. There's your energy, there's your patterns, and there's also the patterns in the alchemy of ⁓ the of that other person. So you will never have the full picture of it because you're only half of it anyway. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Rose Wild: Yeah, that's my experience. Kait Tregenza: And then think the other side where you can keep looping with people is that when you have to either work that ex parent with that ex, I don't have friends that you want to keep to get, know, something that's you ⁓ locked into that person where you actually cannot leave you when you cannot just like disappear into the sun. ⁓ Rose Wild: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Is that still the same answer? Is it just about that which was wounded or already wounded before you got into the relationship? there a different if you have to keep seeing them? Rose Wild: Hmm, that's tricky. That is tricky. And thing about it is like, it's kind of like exposure therapy, right? No, it's like, you can master it. Actually, this happened with the same ex. ⁓ he moved in to the apartment block where me and my fiance in Mexico, Tulum. ⁓ And I him every single day walking the dog. And I was like, what is going on here? And actually, Kait Tregenza: Yeah. It happens, right? Rose Wild: what it really helped me in the end. was to begin with. was like, really? This has to happen. But after a of ⁓ being exposed emotional state, feeling it. breathing with it, knowing that, no, I can stay in my center. I can, I can deal with this. I actually got an apology from him as well in the end, that same parasite cleanse. So ⁓ I ⁓ that it's not always going to work out like that for women. You can't control the other person. Of course, like if you have, for example, an ex who is not in the way that you. Kait Tregenza: Yeah Rose Wild: desire him to, that your kids deserve him to, it's frustrating. I'm not going to sugarcoat it, but I do believe that you're kind of conditioned into energetic mastery if you're able to hold your center in those circumstances. Kait Tregenza: I hope so. Some of the strongest women I know have a business and parent children with someone they wish they could never see ever again. ⁓ they're showing up eight hours a day and working alongside someone. That a level of mastery that I think most women say and go, just sell your shares in the business. But it's not everybody's to Rose Wild: and Kait Tregenza: exit a toxic relationship. Sometimes their path is to learn that and learn what it is to only alchemize, but you know, rise above and sit on top of that. Rose Wild: Yeah, and it's so easy to sit on the sidelines, isn't it? And to go, this should be like this. But from my experience from any toxic dynamic that I've been in, my was getting like the lessons or ⁓ it up to something that it needed to learn and needed to receive something from that experience in order to get me to the next place that I'm meant to be. And there's no timeline on that, you know? I think that every woman... some, you you might, you, everyone has that friend, right? That goes back and goes back and goes back to the ex that's just like such bad news. And from the outside, it's easy for us to do, for someone to go, why you do that to yourself? But from the inside, there's something happening. There's a wound, of course it's happening, but I also believe that there's, there's something. Kait Tregenza: Right. Rose Wild: that that person is working out in that process. Kait Tregenza: I think that can be true. And I think sometimes part of what you need to work out is, you know, which more comfortable for me ⁓ sitting my wound or sitting in my power. ⁓ Because that's something that I've witnessed as well is that, and ⁓ it's ⁓ if Rose Wild: and Yeah. Kait Tregenza: your friend or you come to the conclusion that actually my comfort zone is my misery and that's all I'm willing to be. But then don't complain about it, know, own Rose Wild: Don't call me up and say, and then get sad about it again. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. But if your comfort zone is just being pushed to the limit as you learn your power and that this guy feels more comfortable than the unknown you on the other side of your extraordinary transformation. Sometimes you've got to just got to take that leap and learning yourself and learning your heart, learning your body. Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: is how you know, is this comfort back or is it love? And I think going back to Maiden versus Queen, the number one thing that has changed my life is knowing difference between comfort and love. the delta how much I love myself, how much I put worth on how much I am confident in my capacity. Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: to stand on my own two feet, if I don't know what that's going to look like. And I think, I think if you're not in relationship with yourself first and don't have the comfort in your own body first, it's so easy to go back to a guy that gives you false comfort. Rose Wild: Yeah. totally true. I believe we can get that comfort from other places. Like we don't always need to be the one that pours into us ourself. This is that came up like kind of after a few was like, actually we're to, we're we need each other. We are social beings, we've always been social beings and this fascination and insistence on we need to be independent and be able to give ourselves absolutely everything is also not true. But it doesn't mean that we be going back to a harmful situation. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Yeah. Rose Wild: you know, maybe we can get that from our friends. Maybe we can get that. I get that from my dog. At some point, he's a boy and he's very kind of alpha. some point, I remember saying to myself, if I can get it from Wolfie, if all I'm getting is what I from Wolfie, I just rather hang out with Wolfie, you know? So I think there's things that we can, ⁓ we ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's a really good validation point. It's like, takes a lot of energy to be everything ever need for yourself. It's really hard to move furniture by yourself. It's really hard. It's impossible. You need a friend. Rose Wild: Yeah. It's true. And then it's like, you know, you're getting your period in a week everything's hard and you've got to carry these things up the stairs. And it's like, you know, why it so hard to ask for support? Why is it so, why is so rare for this to happen? ⁓ Kait Tregenza: I don't know, you're the expert, what's answer? I think everyone's wondering that. Rose Wild: Well, I think really, you know, a bit of a conspiracy theorist when it comes to these things. I believe it was, it's all a psyop really to keep women and men separate because when men women come together and union in family, healthy expression of a family. We are unstoppable. Look at all of the most powerful families in the world, the elites, right? They are all families. They are all networks that started with the power of the man and the woman together. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Rose Wild: So you dismantle the union and you keep women afraid and angry at men and you keep men passive and you keep them in very in a kind of like slumbered state addicted to porn, whatever it is that is going on with men, which is like, you know, with an AI girlfriend as well, this is like happening these days. We're separate we're at war with each other. And then comes the fight of versus patriarchy. You know, it's just that it's impossible. So I think how clever to sell the idea to women that they're powerful if they're independent and alone and dependent on the space, you know. Kait Tregenza: Alone. I've thought that I've thought about that so much. It's, it's like, it's such an obvious, think this is why we see the rise of single mothers of women who are not having children ⁓ all these kinds of trends, as well as the whole Manaspierce space. It's like, ⁓ if can create this polarity, if you can create this distortion, if you can create this you know, us versus them, why would you want to work into that? And then you take away all organic dating and you put it on a, you know, on a phone, then you gamify it. And, you know, the more, the better. The whole thing is so cheapened and we're so disposable. You become completely and utterly disposable. And so your devotion to yourself becomes so easily eroded in that kind of Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's a good word to write there. It's cheap. Mm-hmm Kait Tregenza: mentality, right? Rose Wild: That's why I honestly believe that if every woman everywhere was sacred gatekeeping her temple of her body, her space and tending to that and actually saying, if you want access to me. actually have to be of these values, be of this kind of man. I know this kind of goes against what I was saying about us being separate, but I believe also is part of the conversation of men rising, of initiating the masculine, but it doesn't happen like that, right? So I think that we're in a very interesting time in and where shit is hitting the fan. Kait Tregenza: Mm-hmm. Rose Wild: so to speak, you know, it's like everything is coming up now and we have a choice, you know, we have a choice as women, either we become bitter. and we stay alone and it's all about the money, it's all about the business, it's all about each other and ourselves, to be honest, the selfishness. we that our reality is going to be different. And that choice doesn't come when we have the external confirmation, it comes before that. Because we understand that... we actually have the ability to change the paradigm. And I know hard to believe if you're someone who has just had constant, like, felt like you've been in a battle when it comes to love or dating or whatever. But honestly, when you make that internal shift, the kind of men you meet are different. there, want, they're doing work. They want to do the work with you. They want to protect, they want to provide, they have honor, you know? This exists, it's out there. And I really would love my mission, a big part of my mission is for women to know that it's possible. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Do you think that's part of what's keeping them out of even considering changes is like to what end? You I've seen the men that are around, you know, I'd prefer to watch my, you know, my TV and snuggle my cat and stay at home in my ⁓ clean house my designer bags and like, I'm happy there. Like, do you think that's part of it? Rose Wild: Yeah. Yes, think that the wounds compound if we don't do the work to kind of like peel back the layers of the heart as they come, becomes so thick, that scar tissue of like, yes, let's stay in. you know, my castle that I've built, this beautiful castle, like I've got the money, I've got whatever, you know, why do I need a man? But that's the thing, if you think a man is only there for those things, then you're sorely missing out on what is possible. because it is so much more. That piercing presence that a man can bring that can you deeper into ⁓ as a woman to discover new layers of yourself as a woman when he's really with you is far outweighs any of the kind of a... you know, material that apparently a man is only, you know, like he's just good for that, right? And until we've had an experience of that, what that's like, you know, it's kind of hard to imagine. Kait Tregenza: So how do you, okay, so say you've done this process, you've met a man that you think is, yeah, he's gonna match it. He's gonna assume that throne, be that king. But you're still a little bit too much in your ice queen. You know, I don't know if I can fully trust you. I don't know how to come to you. I've got my queendom over here. I don't know how to make an empire with you. How? Rose Wild: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: How do women start actually how they've always been in a relationship, which has gotten them ⁓ A into, because I can imagine it would be like learning ask for things that you need. ⁓ That's a huge pain point for a lot of women. It's like, why do I have to ask you to do these things that we are both, you know, responsible for? does the... Rose Wild: Absolutely. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Why does all of this have to fall onto me? And now I'm asking you to do these, these chores. So that's a huge turn off, right? Like would assume that that would make her think, you know, I'm not even going to bother starting to ⁓ because I want to get in that loop again. But then it's like, okay, we'll stop asking for the dishes to be done and ask ⁓ for, want to wake up every day and feel so claimed. Rose Wild: Mm. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: so taken care of. want my spine to be straight and my heart to be open. As you said earlier, ⁓ want to find creative ways that you help me to feel that. Now, I don't know if you can say that to a modern man and he'd be like, gotcha babe. Like, let's get into that. Like, maybe I'm approaching it in the wrong way. Like help us to learn how do you actually start changing these habits? ⁓ Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Okay. and Yeah. Kait Tregenza: to have the kind of relationship of your dreams, be the woman that asks, to be the woman that's open to receive, to soften, to come into that union. What the kinds of things that women need to start, I need to start thinking differently? Rose Wild: You know, I used to be extremely as like liberal, feminist, of quality, you know, I would always often be like, okay, we go 50-50 and you both the chores and et cetera. I can just speak from my experience. Now I'm with a traditional man. It's so much fucking easier. Because I know what my role is, he knows what his role is, and if neither of us want to do it, we find a way to outsource it. Because we have that mindset of like, okay, this falls, doesn't fall within either of our responsibility. For example, I absolutely hate doing that thing where you get, know, know, like there's food in the sink. I'm just like, love cook, I love to make the house beautiful, I love to pour my feminine energy in, but scrubbing toilets and doing these things, like, no, it makes feel like not good. And so it's about being honest about how it makes you feel. It's like ⁓ when I'm into, so men love to hear. how something makes you feel good, you know? So they want to do more of that. In my experience, something I'm learning. I'm not perfect at it. Sometimes I also have day you can ask Val and see where I'm like, you know, don't think about the way I say things. if we can let them know like, gosh, you know, when this is taken care of, I have so much energy, I feel so much like I just want to pour into our home. I just want to pick flowers and make it beautiful. It's very different to, what are you doing? Will you do that thing? Take the bins out, you know? So that's on us, I think, as women, because we can get into that naggy, nagging thing. But usually, if we're nagging, it's because there's something deeper underneath that we haven't addressed, that's accumulated, that's become resentment, in my opinion. So there's an underlying dissatisfaction either with ourself or with the relationship or something that's going on that is driving that like touchiness. Kait Tregenza: But I also, I'm thinking of a lot of men that I know, they're ⁓ all of a sudden turned around and started asking, I feel so full and full of energy ⁓ and exuberance love you if the bins were just taken care of. And I would just be so open to feeling whatever happens you take them out. Rose Wild: Hahaha! Hahaha! Kait Tregenza: I just know, I mean, maybe it's because I live in Australia at the moment and I know what Australian men are like, but I don't think that anyone would get much but a complete laugh in the face. So, I mean, I don't, maybe I don't want to, you know, label all 10 million Australian men in a particular way, but I think Rose Wild: Okay. Really? Kait Tregenza: was just wondering like if the resentment that's underneath the nagging ⁓ I don't feel safe enough to open a playful, sensual, ⁓ ⁓ feminine conversation style with you. And therefore I've reverted into your mother or your manager or your ⁓ whatever. And I'm just, I'm just wondering, I, Rose Wild: Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. Kait Tregenza: My point is that I don't think any woman wakes up at eight years old and goes, one day I'm going to grow up and be a nagger and that will make me happy. then I will nag my husband and my children and my neighbors and I will be the world's greatest nagger. It just happen. Rose Wild: Ha! Yeah. We know you are. No, it feels shit. It feels bad, doesn't it? When you're doing it, you're just like, oh gosh, you can hear yourself from outside. you're just, at least for me, know, like, oh, oh, what's happened to you? But I think that as long as that's not a baseline, you know, we're all human. And I have to say, it really depends on what you're holding as a woman. Kait Tregenza: It's awful. Ugh. Rose Wild: Because if your man is allowing you to be a woman, as in, know, ⁓ going out and ⁓ he is taking care of things. And allowing, giving you the space to also express whatever that is for you, of being woman through overflow, whether you want to be working or whether you want to be in the house. It's my belief that feels radically different to, I'm going to work, going to work. This is, doing a very kind of modern liberal split situation. Therefore, this is in my lived because I've lived both, that's where this comes in like the bins, because it's kind of like, I'm carrying so much. Can you not carry some of it? ⁓ And I believe that it gets simpler. For me anyway, works in our relationship is more traditional roles. Kait Tregenza: Right. Rose Wild: I never thought I would say that honestly, if you would have asked me five years ago, I would have probably laughed in your face. But know, it really does. It around the house. So, you know, I'm responsible for cooking. I'm responsible for keeping the house tidy. you know, we do have, we're looking enough to have cleaners that come once a because I have also boundaries with that in terms of if I need to overextend myself as a woman. overextend myself in the sense of being burnt out, feeling like I'm just not feeling sexy in the house, right? Not feeling like, you know, by the end of the day. This is not being in our femininity. No matter whether that's you go to work or you're working at home. So I think it's for us to know the boundaries and ask for what it is, you know? What it is that we need. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. But I mean, you're not in a traditional couple the true sense of it. I mean, you have a business and clients and you work ⁓ you earn your own money. So which part do you mean is traditional? ⁓ what is traditional? First of all, like which era are we talking about in human history? ⁓ Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. I would say that I... In our, I believe, like regardless of like how much money I make, Valentin always wants to be the main provider because that's what he sees his role as as a man. So, you know, he does, does hold in our relationship. So I'm able to, it's not much what you do, it's the way you do it, I believe. Cause I can create ⁓ and I'm overflow. I'm in creativity in my business because I don't have that same hustle and urgency that I used to have when I was really in this boss babe mentality. ⁓ So it's so much like what I'm doing. It's the way that I'm doing it. I had a big break. and came back again in a very different way and had to relearn how to approach my business from a true place of femininity, not just like femininity, you know? And that's an ongoing journey that I think every woman is never, you know, like it is continuous because we meet those edges again of those old patterns of like, okay, would force, usually I would force it. or my cycle or to rush. So I think that the way that do things. But we're traditional in that sense. We're traditional in the sense of house roles. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Mm. We have two follow up questions then. you he wants to be the main provider, how does it work with your dynamic? Does that mean that the more that you make it pushes him to elevate or have you that there are any unconscious subconscious sort of like ⁓ energetic limits that yourself if you feel your business is going to overtake him? Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. you That's a really good question. And in the beginning, that was the navigating of this soft power. Because for me, the embodiment of that was like, how can I really allow my softness without collapse? I'm afraid of collapsing, I'm afraid of dissolving if I really just fully surrender. So I just explored that edge for a while and then it actually allowed me to regenerate from a deep sense within of energy. It was uncomfortable at moments because I was just like, I don't know what to do. I've used like being quite fiery and go get it since I was very young. I left home when I was 16. Yeah, I spent a long time of being strong woman, you know. And from he's described is that when I, I start to make... more money it pushes him a positive sense to also. So he doesn't see it as a, it's good for us actually, because it expands collective field together. And I think that takes a lot, you know, from a man and a masculine to be able to be aware of himself and track his own reactions to things. Because oftentimes men can be threatened. Kait Tregenza: Yeah, the reason I asked you that is because I was in what sounds like at the surface a relationship that you're describing. Rose Wild: by the strength of women as well, know, that does happen. Mm. Kait Tregenza: And when I hit a limit, was disharmony ⁓ union in turn me to ⁓ actually subconsciously reduce earning capacity. ⁓ And actually that what would have called a man performing union, performing, ⁓ but was very much in Rose Wild: and you Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: control and what I've learned about power is that true power needs very little force and very little control. when meet a or a woman, when you meet a person with true power, they really, ⁓ it's an delicate, ⁓ like they the force of who they be is the power that they have. They don't need to push very much at all. ⁓ Rose Wild: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: And so the more power that you innately hold within your being, within your truth, within your body, like when you actually understand the vessel of creation that you are, you can work in union with another in the polarity of the two to amplify and intensify and magnetize magnify creation, the force on each them is so delicate, right? Like it's ⁓ this finessing. Rose Wild: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: And I learned a lot in that relationship of like, actually power doesn't take this form of big voice, big presence, big, you big words, ⁓ big talking, know? And I think I've learned over, over time is that if a man needs to tell you a lot about what he thinks or what he believes, Rose Wild: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Stop listening. Rose Wild: Stop watching. Kait Tregenza: So start watching. Stop talking to men about what they think and what they believe. just, ⁓ need a conversation. Rose Wild: Yeah, absolutely. It's such a topic, the performing polarity and performing I that, you know, I wrote this recently. It's like when we go away from, when we're moving from being like the ice queen or the strong woman, of, you're only attracting kind of feminized men. or then you just shut your doors down and you're like, fuck this. Or you end up accepting that you're gonna be the one that's the initiator. When you work through that and you start to like connect with your feminine energy, you start to connect, you're understanding the dynamics and you're like, okay, I will let him move in to the space and like you're figuring it out. think that's when most women encounter their first kind of masculine guy. maybe in my experience was like this like performing polarity. I thought, okay, it kind of sounds like it looks like on the outside that it is this. But there's also the woundedness in there of like, yeah, control around money, control around you as a woman. It's used as a mask or a copy and paste strategy to avoid shadow. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Rose Wild: to avoid the wounds, to avoid the work. I had to learn that the hard way as well and then come out the other side to experience what I have now. It's just, you know, it's funny because previous guy who was very much, you know, like mass polarity, this is, you know, the woman's, the woman's shield, the ⁓ frame and had all of this language, the David Dader manual, whatever. And when I Valentin, Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Rose Wild: It was like, I don't know, like date five or six or something. And he's like, yeah, when I was 14, I was like sent into the Austrian forest with this man to do masculine initiation. And I read all of David Dada's books then, back then. And I was like, oh, you didn't mention it like at the beginning, you know, the singers, because it's in him. It's part of. of who he is and that's what I think is important for women to recognize when they're starting to date masculine men don't like you say don't listen to what they say watch how move and how your body responds and how feels as a of of that like do their words and actions actually align Kait Tregenza: The other thing that's coming to me based on the conversation and everything I'm learning from you in this the hard reflection for me was ⁓ that masculine that first of all let him lead that relationship I stepped back the made and of you now may take care of me. ⁓ And I'm learning in moment real time like, Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: If you're a maiden in a masculine relationship with a control, that's a, that's just a father daughter relationship. So if you don't want to be in a mother son relationship, you also don't want to be in a father daughter relationship. so learning to first come into that queen, it's really the foundation for all that comes out because queens don't little boys and Kings don't little girls. ⁓ Rose Wild: This is it. Hmm. For sure, sure. I love that. it such a journey. It's such an incredible journey into you know, into union. And I think we should just relish it as well, you know, even those where you go on a date and you're like, ⁓ my gosh, this is like, I just want to leave. Kait Tregenza: Mic drop. Mm. Rose Wild: is like, you're getting, maybe I see it in a very romantic way, but I could feel Valentin before I met him. I read notes written in my phone from, I think it was like 2020. Kait Tregenza: You getting close up? Rose Wild: 2024 in October or something, I wrote down him. I was channeling his energy. was like, this is who he is. This is how he moves through the world, even down to the bloody clothes he wore and the kind of expressions on his face. I forgot about this list. then last year, ⁓ was on plane from Mexico to meet him in Austria. And happened to look at my phone and I was just like, my gosh. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Rose Wild: It's him, it's him. And I shared it with him and he started to cry. is a sense of like, allow yourself to be in romance with this future beloved, with man, before you've even met him. And perhaps those and the heartbreaks and the where is is actually like, Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Rose Wild: all part of the love story, you know? But we have to have the courage to walk away from the things that are not that if we actually want to experience it. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. It's so, it's so fascinating what you're saying because I am very familiar with this. part of my questions earlier about self trust to you know, and not saying that my journey is going to be a universal one, but there might be somebody out there, ⁓ know, who has, has a similar so I met my daughter six, seven years before I met her father. ⁓ was a long time waiting for him to come. And I was starting to feel her urgency to come. ⁓ she's like, you know, pushing me like, come on, like open yourself up. And so I did a lot of this sort of like, Rose Wild: Is it? Kait Tregenza: I guess the and the allowing and the, and they're like tapping into like who this person is. And I coming back to a meditation with her one time and being like, okay, this is like kind of I ⁓ think and he is. And actually she it even further to the point where it's like, she told me what country he was living, like, born in, like his educational background, you know, what his physical self look like, like the kinds of sense of you. Like I knew this guy to like, could chisel him in class, know, like I knew who he was. and so then started that. I started dreaming about him and I would like wake up every morning and have these like deja vu style experiences of how he would be waking me up in the morning. And I felt so deeply and deeply in love with him. And I was opening and like through this experience of, I guess, welcoming this man into my bed. Cause I was, I was living alone at that time and I had this huge apartment. with this like amazing closet. And I used to make this joke to my of being like, you know, I would rather have sex with a man on the first date than share my closet. Like, it's not about like sharing my body. It's about sharing my like my walk-in ⁓ robe this point is like, it's so precious to me. I've got everything set up. Like it's my like, like I've been dreaming of this forever and it's got to be like, it's a really special guy. ⁓ Rose Wild: it. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: You know, and always only saying that because it's like all the at the time is like, you know, don't share your body until you're ready. a shame. share my body before I share my closet. Come on. ⁓ Anyway, I meet him and it was I had only ever had come like deeply comic relationships as well where the ones that I had like Rose Wild: you Kait Tregenza: Every time I had met a man that I went and went into a relationship, it was like, my God, like you feel like a continuation of this, you this beautiful romance. and, ⁓ and had been like, and so I hadn't had, like, wasn't a strange feeling for me to meet someone and be like, ⁓ I deeply remember you. I deeply, deeply remember you. Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: But it was the first time that I deeply remembered someone in the future, not in the past. So it made me feel like, we haven't probably had as much of a past together as we would have a future. Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: And you know, then I start to talk to him and he checks off every single thing that I was told from my daughter and told from my dreams and my premonitions. And, know, fast forward a couple months, you know, and we're together for the first time and it's beautiful and it's perfect. And he does these, he starts to do these things from my dreams. And I was like, ⁓ my god, like it's all, and like my whole body is like, this is him. Like the first time that I was with him as well was very similar to the dreams that I had had of what that would feel like of what his energy, all of this kind of stuff. Rose Wild: Mm. Kait Tregenza: And I think from my personal perspective, given that my marriage didn't work out, was that all of the red flags that I would have normally looked at were ignored because of that. so I guess just case this is relevant to anybody listening, what can be the downsides, I guess, of doing these kinds of feeling activities Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Okay. Kait Tregenza: and it not going how you think it's going to go, or, you know, it being a different, like for me, what I've come to the conclusion of was this was always, I asked my daughter, who's your father? I didn't necessarily ask her who's the love of my life. And they don't always have to be equal things. And she has the perfect father for her. And he was the Rose Wild: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Kait Tregenza: perfect catalyst into who I now am claiming myself into. And I have so much love and respect and honoring for that. But I don't, you know, it's like, it's that, Oh, what's, am I really ready to go and build trust in that kind of union again, given that Rose Wild: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: I thought that my body and all of the forces that be coming together were giving me a particular thing. And I asked this question both selfishly, but also just in case there is someone out there that's done a course like this or that's worked with a mentor or something. And it just, didn't go the way that they, like, I'm so glad for you that it's worked out for you, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee for everybody that it does. And I just thought, Rose Wild: Yeah. you Hmm. Kait Tregenza: Maybe you have something to say to that. Rose Wild: Yeah, I think that like you say, thank you for sharing your story, some of your story by the way. And I believe that there are many different souls out there, right? There's many different kinds of relationships that we can find ourself in that, know, I'm discovering more and more about it in terms of like, you know, soul partner, twin flames, la la la, whatever direction you want to go in. But when comes to children and babies and babies. think they're, because they choose, right? They're choosing this, I want to come through this vessel and I believe that there is disappointment and there's disillusionment that can happen for us when we realise, when our hopes and dreams of what something could be. I think that's almost the most painful thing, right? I've been there where I've like literally mapped out, I was engaged to a guy we owned a yoga studio together in Scotland. And really broke my heart actually at the end of that relationship because it was not the loss actually because it was the right thing to do at that time. It was more the projection of what could been. Yes. Kait Tregenza: Yeah, the grieving of the life you could have lived sort of thing. Rose Wild: And so I like that. I like that phrase, high intention, low attachment to things, because I mean, it's easy to say, it's hard to practice, but that, know, offering up, I think that's where devotion comes in. When you've been weathered a few times with some heartbreaks and you're just like, you know what? I myself up on the altar of love for the highest possible ⁓ outcome. And this is in divine, if this is in alignment, this will, it work. And if my is needing to go elsewhere to experience else with actually a soul partner or someone who is more then ⁓ also trusting that. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Rose Wild: We don't know what's in the future. We don't know. You know, one thing's certain, we were born and we die. We have no idea who's going to betray us, who's going to leave, what's going to happen, even in the most beautiful situation, right? And I think if we crack ourselves open to that and we let ourselves go into like the feeling of like, shit, this is all so impermanent, even in a marriage, even in the most devoted union, then we can like... Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Mm. Mm. Rose Wild: It's a lot, but we can let ourselves live it more fully as well, you know? Kait Tregenza: Yeah, definitely resonate with that because I call him my most successful relationship. It's the worst relationship that I've had by far, but it is my most successful. is the so someone asked this before. They're like, ⁓ my God, you've been through fucking hell and back. Rose Wild: This is it. Kait Tregenza: I am so sorry that you did that. And I've kind of been really careful now, like to tell my story because that I'm ashamed of it, but because too many people hear it and assume victimhood or assume tragedy or assume that sympathies required, but without him. Yeah, obviously I wouldn't have my daughter. That's like a given, but I'm really just talking about the self and the relationship because he continues to be her father. That's a successful relationship for her. That's, that's got nothing to do with me. but the relationship between he and I, Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: is the most successful that I've had because I've never been able to get so deep into the ruins of me ⁓ in way that he really required a level of truth from me in the way that I required it of him. And, he's through own catharsis and ⁓ catalytic as well, Rose Wild: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: In the sense for me, was like other partners that I had had allowed me to build a relationship with them on the ruins whatever had come before. ⁓ ⁓ relationship didn't allow for that. It had to go into the depth of me to, I to find any aspect me that wasn't willing to, it's like that parasite cleanse in a, in a human form in a different way. Rose Wild: is it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Like it's this questioning of and question. And so I think that what the conclusion that I've come to is like the form of a successful relationship has been very narrow. I.E. we live together, we eat dinner together, we sleep in the same bed together, we live our lives together. Navigating co-relationship via our and via ourselves directly. It's obviously something that we are moving through. But I think what I'm talking to is these people come along and they you're on your path to truth. And that's what you really want more than anything. You want a devotion to yourself. You want intimacy with yourself. You want a true, wholesome, full, fully life. Yeah. I'm going to get you there. You won't like it, but I'm going to get you there. It's going to hurt. It's gonna be, it's gonna break your part. But you weren't, had purification to do. You had detoxification, you had cleanse, had shedding to ⁓ Rose Wild: Yeah. That's such a beautiful way of talking about it. that's exactly what I feel like. It's like anything that is not love has to burn away in order for us to be open to the kind of love that we all really want that devotion. We all really want that depth, that truth, that, that commitment that you know, we all want that. It sounds great, but it's the reality of it is we have, are you willing to burn down all of the all of the wounds, all of the defences, all of the bullshit that you, we all are holding in the way of that. And sometimes sadly, it means the relationship itself has burnt to the ground. In the quest... Kait Tregenza: And sometimes it's surprising which ones last. Rose Wild: Yes, And have like a phoenix, you know, they get stronger and stronger. ⁓ And is something that ⁓ I'm passionate about is how conflicts actually can be portals to deeper intimacy, deeper growth. If you have the tools to be able to weather those storms together. I wholeheartedly that, know. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Mm. Yeah, it's interesting because if you're available to let go of the story that you've been yourself, and sometimes I notice ⁓ people, with the stories we tell ourselves in the present are creating the past. And what I mean by that is sometimes it's not a lie. Sometimes it's that we are truly trying to make sense of how we arrived, where we arrived. And so the story that we're telling ourself is our understanding of how we arrived at who we are now. Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: And it's in many ways to unravel that an lie. Because when you're lying to yourself, you know you're lying to yourself. When you're trying to make sense of something about, well, I've arrived here and this is the person that I am now, so this must be the story that got me there. That can be really challenging to put a fine tooth comb to. And so in your conflict, ⁓ Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: you telling that story that you're telling to yourself and to other people, to that person, has to be dismantled because that person will never agree with it. I mean, it's not for the faint of heart if you'd like to like take your therapy session to the person that you're in conflict with, but you will not get any consensus and you need to that going in, ⁓ it can often be the way to just Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: smash open illusions that you're feeding yourself. Rose Wild: Yeah, and think it's like an ultimate form of ego death. know, some people go and drink ayahuasca and whatever, do a plants medicine ceremonies. It's like, if you can stay in the heat of conflict in union and transmute that fire together, like that, you need to obliterate the ego. It cannot survive in that sense. And you know, I actually don't believe it. Kait Tregenza: Nyeh! Yeah Rose Wild: ego is bad and all of that because we need a little bit of it to survive in this modern day world. But you know, we've got to say. Kait Tregenza: Well, I've started calling ego the falseness because it's not necessarily the ego itself that I want to dismantle because I am going to have a personality. I'm going to have this person self, but the falseness I can. And the only reason I'm smirking is because that's why it's called becoming flame. Rose Wild: Yeah, yeah, of course. Kait Tregenza: It's literally the moment that you choose to stand in the heat, to burn hot enough that you can actually burn through that which is no longer relevant, that is no longer the truth that you're clinging to as this false truth of this false identity. Rose Wild: Wow, I love that! Kait Tregenza: and actually stand the heat of your own flame to alchemize into the phoenix that you be, basically. Rose Wild: Absolutely, I love it. Kait Tregenza: Yeah, I mean, it's not without like 20 years of hard work to come up with that name, but yeah. Rose Wild: I'm going through the fire itself, right? But I think that this is a really interesting angle to consider for any woman who's listening to this, who is of the strongest position yet in love is somehow not met. This, what talking about right now, the heat, the fire, the conflict, the... Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Rose Wild: Intends that you have someone holding a mirror up and and you being able to bear the reflection of yourself of someone actually challenging you of leading you of calling you out not you the one that's like, you know, ⁓ the dishes aren't done, but actually someone saying hey, what's up and And you needing to reveal yourself and over again in vulnerability, you know, this is the reason why women Kait Tregenza: Mm. Mm. Rose Wild: are not wanting to go there because it's scary. It's hard. It's a full-time job, I'm gonna be honest. It's an amazing, most beautiful thing in the world, but it is something that you have to be ready for. it's not just being cute and soft and learning to talk to him and manipulate him. It's actually us cracking ourselves open to... Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Rose Wild: to able to bear the risk and be courageous enough to lean in to the kind of relationship that actually will parts of you that you don't like, that you don't want to see, that you avoid. So I think that rather than asking the question, why are there no good men? Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Rose Wild: Maybe asking yourself the question, why am I more comfortable being the one in control? Why am I more comfortable being the leader? Is more empowering to me. I think you might get further with that Kait Tregenza: Yeah, I agree because those were the kinds of questions that I... Honestly, the hardest question that I've ever had to answer in my life is, why can't I let go of the control here? What it? happens? What if in, especially like in as... High stakes is parenting. What happens if we're co-parents and it's not me as the lead parent with him as a Disney dad and me complaining, he's a Disney dad, I do everything. Well, what have you let him do? What have you actually let him do? Rose Wild: Mmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm Kait Tregenza: And, you know, there's a lot of, and excuses and all of this that I can come up with, but it's, You have to sit with the truth of that and you have to really accept not just to yourself and to your ego in this moment. And in my case, it's a parenting decision. So it's like, can I face 20 years from now and I'm put in front of a child? Can I give a good enough answer? ⁓ think that's a really good way of dismantling an ego. Rose Wild: Yeah. you Kait Tregenza: control point, you know, it's like. And if that's just a relationship question, you know, are you willing to assemble a panel of all your exes see each one of them that you were so-called controlling or to this or to that with all of them? And they all say that. Are you willing to am the common denominator here? This is the theme. Rose Wild: Yeah, I got goosebumps with that one. It's not easy. It's easier just to say, you know what? Yes, him. And whatever, know, ⁓ rhetoric. I've, yes, or, you know. Kait Tregenza: Not easy. Not fun. He's the problem. Metatoxic. Rose Wild: You don't need them anyway. know that then you go into it's the pull, right? When you, when you leave a relationship there's so much pain and you're trying to figure it out and there's a loss and there's guilt maybe because you contributed to the ending of that. You know, let's be honest, there's maybe self punishment going on. The most easy way is to just create some kind of like power like, I'm independent. don't need you anyway. This is how it was. But the problem is when we approach breakups like that, rather than it being a breakthrough for ourselves, I think we cheat ourselves of the opportunity to actually go, okay, this ends here with me now. I might not be able to control him, but I can control my side of the street and be really fucking honest that. this is a pattern for me and I want to heal it. I want to spiral up from the cycle. And I think it's also okay that we have our like tender spots. I don't think that they ever go away. I think that we learn how to hold them and actually integrate them and let them run the show from the unconscious, you know. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. there's a lot in this conversation that I've taken away. I think I've learned more what you mean about devotion. I think I also really felt heard your point of like, but it's not enough to just skip yourself, love and intimacy and devotion. Like we're not made for that. And ⁓ Rose Wild: Thank Kait Tregenza: We're participating a nefarious agenda by complying with that belief system. And I think whenever we a belief system that's been fed to us from the external ⁓ and it's giving a life that's not necessarily that, which is part of our true heart's desire, it's our obligation as women to really delve into that belief and like, is that mine? Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: where, where, if it's mine, then where is it held in, in, a point of truth within me? And if it's not, if that's something that's introduced or implanted, you know, do I want to keep believing in that? Is there a power to another belief now that I can, I can pull my belief from independence, hyper independence, whatever it may be, and put that into and, try that on. And guess At the end of the day, if you don't like that belief in union, you can pull your Rose Wild: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: energy out of that again, but like the of just trying on and saying, you know, is it really true I to do this all alone? And is it benefiting me? Because I think most women already know the answer. It's no. And you have to do it like you ⁓ like it. You know, definition of devotion and union and cohabitation is yours and mine mine. ⁓ Rose Wild: Yes. Mm-hmm. Thank Kait Tregenza: And each individual's is each individual's. I think I'm really getting from was the really gentle, lovely pushback at, well, no, that's yet just going into fueling this hyper independence loop that so many of us are in and learning build in your sense of union with I think is what I'm hearing from you from this conversation. A very primary point before you get to feel safe in a union where somebody is providing, not just obviously money and finances, which is great, but all the other things. Because if you are a woman who already knows how to provide for yourself or what else is there for you, and that's the discovery point for you. And that union piece is really going to open that conversation up. You know, is it. Rose Wild: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: It doesn't really matter what it is. It's like, whatever it is for you, know, whatever it's like, what is your biggest dream and your greatest desire for your life and for union and for your investigation and discovery of true unconditional love, a partner is going to get you there. It's going to test you. And, you know, I can learn to expand my definition of a successful relationship in that way. I think as well, it will be really, really interesting. Rose Wild: Yeah, I would love to just like, yeah, with an for the listeners of mostly women that I speak to, that I work with, they actually hold themselves back from claiming what they really desire because they're like, they don't themselves even go there because they're afraid it won't happen. Kait Tregenza: I've learned a lot. Hmm. Rose Wild: And then there are women also who are living in the kind of daydream, bit maiden thing and seeing potential in men that is not there. This is not what I'm describing. I'm describing someone, I'm describing the ability to actually open up the possibility that you're worthy of receiving the kind of love that you see. You see reflections of, maybe you see a couple and you're like, wow, that's real. Maybe you see it on social media. I know it's just a fraction of but you know, these things, they're coming towards you and you feel like, exists, exists. Let that in. Let it in. And when you let it in, it to become a reality that you can from. But if you don't let it in, if you choose not to, if you wait for a confirmation externally, then you're going to be waiting a long time. So you can do it. Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Rose Wild: And if you feel struggling, you can join my free self-power challenge too. Kait Tregenza: Yes. So Rose, tell us how we can connect with you. Rose Wild: Yeah, so best way is to actually just follow me on Instagram. It's Rose in Devotion and have a free day soft power challenge for women who are either in ⁓ union and want to go deeper, you want deeper intimacy, devotion, or for women who are dating for union and you're ready to claim it within, with yourself and see it echoed out. ⁓ That's the approach. you can find me there. Kait Tregenza: Thank you so much for sharing the codes, the wisdom that you hold, the journey that you've traveled. am a true believer that women are beings and that we ⁓ actually from each other that which we are missing in ourselves or wanting to, you know, within ourselves. ⁓ And I feel full, very, I feel very, You know what I feel? I feel very erect in my spine. Rose Wild: Mmm. Kait Tregenza: And that was one thing that you said in the beginning. So I'm going to take notice of like whether my heart starts feeling a bit softer and my spine starts feeling a bit straighter because I think, I think these things have a way, these conversations have a way of just like seeping into our lives. And then all of a sudden you're like, wait, hold on that thing that she said that one time. Yeah, I'm feeling that now. So please. Follow Rose on Instagram. She has a beautiful love life that you can completely devour and Netflix and chill over. otherwise follow her and her soft power think ⁓ it's good entry point into working with you and really feeling more of you if you've liked this conversation. And you what? I was thinking maybe I'll even you back for a part two so you can divulge the difference in your feminine ⁓ business styles. ⁓ post this relationship because I think was dying to ask you questions about that, was like, way, not really opening into that side of the conversation. We're like really ⁓ held tightly in this, but ⁓ I lots of people would find that very ⁓ Rose Wild: Yeah I would love to do that actually, yeah, because a big part of that the masculine. So in union, that was key. yes, TBC, that one. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: TBC part two is coming. Find everything below to connect with Rose in her, in the show notes below and we will catch you next week. Bye bye. Rose Wild: Thank you, Kait. Bye.