Latest / The Week in Bible Prophecy / Who Are the 24 Elders in Revelation | Josh & Mondo

Transcript

Who Are the 24 Elders in Revelation | Josh & Mondo · The Week in Bible Prophecy

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast today, everybody. Mondo Gonzalez here sitting
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: across from Josh Peck. Josh, this is I think our
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: first podcast.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: Isn't it.
• 0:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, first time doing this and.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: This and this kind of you know, uh, coworker partnership,
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: which is good.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, You've been on my podcast plenty of times and
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I've been on Prophecy Watchers plenty of times.
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: So this first time we're both.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Both here on the Prophecy Watchers podcast.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: This is good.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: We're gonna We're gonna discuss an interesting topic. And I've
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: written an article about the twenty four Elders and did
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: a DVD, and Josh has written about this in his
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: new book, which we'll highlight that me in a moment,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: and we want to just talk about who this group is,
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: you know, and the exciting things about it, and you know,
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: for those of mine, I know what couple helpful reminders
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: that we have our upcoming conference in Colorado Springs June
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: twenty seventh through the thirtieth, and it is going to
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: be a great time. There's not there's not many seats left.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: We're almost at the sellout point. But so if you're
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: if you've been praying about it and thinking about it,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I would encourage you to jump on in go to call.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: You can go to Watchers Weekend Colorado dot com or
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: just go to Prophecywatchers dot com and you can see
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: the link there. And also if people are not able
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: to make it, we encourage you to check out the
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: live stream that'll be available for a whole year, which
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: would be great. A couple other events that are happening
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: in that In October, I'll be joining Billy Crohn and
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Brendon Holt House and Ken Michael from Olive Tream Ministries.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: We will be hosting a Revelation Church's tour and then
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: also going on a biblical tour of Paul's missionary journey
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: to Athens, Greece and Troez and my leaders and a
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: couple other spots there. If you're interested in that, you
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: can go to go to Prophecywatchers dot com again and
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: just click on the events tab and if you scroll
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: down to October, you'll see a link there which will
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: take you to the tenerary of all the different places
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: again seeing how the gospel spread to Europe and then
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: as we know, we're kind of the recipients of that.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: And then finally just a reminder that we have our
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: upcoming conference in Branson, Missouri, December sixth or eighth, and
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: that's again we're gonna have over twenty speakers there. And
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: you know, Josh, it's interesting and.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: Thinking about this.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: And again, if people are interested in crofts watches dot com,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: you can see that. But people are asking, you know, wondering, well,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: why are we doing all.
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: These all these conferences.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: And I think for us, we realize that Ephesians five
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: sixteen says redeem the time, and we know that with
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: COVID things shut down, and so there's no guarantee we
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: can have a conference. As we know, conferences were shut
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: down during that time. And so we want to make
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: sure that we redeem the opportunities that we have because
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: we none of us believe that the World Economic Forum
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: or the globalists are just sitting around going, well, I
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: guess it didn't work out.
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll give up.
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll give up. They're not they are not giving
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: up for sure.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: And and so we want to take advantage of the
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: time that we have. And so Josh, you know, you.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: You wrote about this in your in your new books,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: so kind of give everybody an insight into your new book.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: And then I have a couple follow up questions on
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: the twenty four others, and we're going to deep dive
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: into this.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: So about three four years ago I wrote a book
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: called Lost Prophecies of Kumran. And it's funny because in
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: the introduction of that book, I usually write my introductions last.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I like knowing what I'm introducing. So the book was
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: all done and I was the last part was the introduction,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: and in that I wrote, like, wow, this is you know,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: this has been.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: A great journey.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: But you know, for for me, this journey of discovery
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: is kind of over, but for you it's just beginning.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: You know, the reader.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Hopefully you can get as excited about it as I can. Well,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: I was I was wrong. My journey of discovery was
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: far from over when it comes to the scenes and
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Caumaran and the amazing Dead Sea scrolls that they left behind.
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: And so in the introduction to the new.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Book, I kind of explained, well, I wasn't done the
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: way I thought I was. And in the past three
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: or four years, I've compiled a lot more information. So
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I wanted to update and expand that book. And that's
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: that's done now. And it's called Forgotten Prophecies of the
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Dead Sea Scrolls. But it's actually in two volumes. I
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: originally had it in one book, but it was seven
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: hundred and sixty some odd pages.
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: After all was.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Sudden done and I ordered one author copy, so there's
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: only one in existence of that huge volume. But the
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: thing is so big, I mean, it's gonna be hard
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: for people to read. I mean it's not even that
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: dense of a book. It's like it's easy to read,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: easy to follow along, but it's just too big. I mean,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: what if somebody wants to take it on a plane
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: or something. It's like it's huge. So so well, Bob
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Alreck had the genius idea, why you just split it
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: into two volumes, and you know, you can have volume
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: one volume two, And I was I was looking at
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: the book and I was like, you know, naturally, it
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: kind of already is split up this way.
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: Anyway. The first half of the book is a lot
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: of a lot.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: Of the history of the scenes and the Kumaran community
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: and the Zadok priests and and like all all that
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: with a little bit of prophecy, and then the second
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: half is mostly prophecy with a little bit of history.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: So uh so splitting it into two two volumes was
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: really genius. So those are those are both out now,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: and of course the best place that people should pick
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: it up is prophecywatchers dot com and uh, I know
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: that you guys just put in an order for some
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: so I don't know if it's in the story yet,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: but maybe by the time this is out it will be.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: And of course I always tell people, you know, don't
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: don't support Jeff Bezils. You can get it on Amazon,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: but don't do that, you know, wait, wait and get
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: it at prophecywatchers dot com. It's better to support a
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: great prophecy ministry like that.
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: So so really.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: It's just uh it's it's an updated and expanded version
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: of that book from three or four years ago, a
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: lot of new information and a lot of new insights.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: And yeah, it was a blast to write, and I'm
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: also very glad that it's done and it's out.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: That's kind of how I I Last summer, I spent
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: almost every day just trying to finalize the Red Heifer
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: book and and I was like it was great. You
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: get done and you're like, okay, I need to rest. Yeah,
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: because you're just so you know that, you know time,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of time factors on things. But so
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: in the in in in the book you we won't
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: get into the details, but why did you bring in
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: because we'll do that a minute, But why did you
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: talk about the twenty four dollars?
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: How did they come into play?
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's really interesting. The the Dead Sea Squirrels
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: have a lot of writings about the Temple and what
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: one of one of their beliefs was that the reason
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: that it was so important to do, you know, certain
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: rituals on certain days in the temple, it wasn't just
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: because God said so, of course that that's reason enough,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: but it was because they had this belief that time
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: runs the same on earth as it does in heaven,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: and in heaven the angels are performing heavenly temple duties there.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: You know, of course, they're not sacrificed animals. We don't
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: really know all of what they're doing. We get little
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: hints of it throughout revelation, but we're not we're not told,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: you know, explicitly, what the angels are doing but they're
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: they're they're doing these rituals at the same time, which
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: makes sense if if the temple is just a shadow,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: if the earthly temple is just a shadow of the
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: heavenly Temple, Yeah, then it makes sense that that would.
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: All be that would all be in line.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: And also so that plus uh, the the Dead Sea
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Squirrel calendar, which I spent a lot of time in
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: the book talking about. Basically, it was the scenes had
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: this belief that there were six thousand years of human history, uh,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: and in their calendar, and it's the same calendar that
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation uses. So you
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: can use this to map out the days of the
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: flood and actually see what days these land on. But
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: you can also do it with prophecy. So in the
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: last part of the book, and what we're talking about
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: today comes from one of the last chapters. But I
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: try to use the Dead Sea Squirrel can to piece
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: together a rough kind of timeline of the tribulation. So,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: for example, one one thing that Christians sometimes talk about
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: is okay, well, the the the the two witnesses, do
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: they come in the first half or the second half?
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: Of the tribulation, and that's that's a that's a big
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: debate and has been since, you know, since I was
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: a kid.
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: But with the Dead Sea.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Squirrel calendar, we can actually determine it has to be
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: the first half, because the day counts don't work out
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: if not, and this kind of this is a bit
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: of a rabbit trail. But in their in their calendar,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: they have what's called a leap week. So we we
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: have like, you know, a leap day every four years
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: or so, well every five or six years, they would
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: have a leap week to reset you know, their their calendar.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: So within a seven year tribulation, within a seven year period,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: you're going to have one leap week somewhere in there.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: The leap week, as it turns out, is in the
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: first half. It can't be the second half of it
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: throws off all the prophet accounts and it doesn't work.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: But if it's in the first half, then all of
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: the day counts with the the prophetic dayccounts with the
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: two witnesses lines up perfectly, so so we can determine
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: that they come sometime in the first half. So as
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: I was piecing all this together, I realized well, got
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: to put the rapture in here somewhere where, you know,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: where does that fit? And it does seem like now
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: now in the Dead Sea Scrolls, there isn't anything explicit
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: about the timing of the rapture, but it's all consistent
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: with a pre trib rapture they have. They have in
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: the Dead Sea Scrolls they talk about these figures called
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: famous Men, and that's probably not the best translation in
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: the world, but in the translation I have, and I
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: don't know how to read the original languages, so I
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: have to go by the translations I have. But when
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: you look at the descriptions, they're they're with them, they're
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: with the Messiaht this big end times battle, and and
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: they're immortal and they're not angels, and I it's like, well,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: who else are they? I mean, they're they're glorified human beings.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: They're they're us essentially. And there's other there's other places
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: that talk about these these these famous men. Well, when
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: I was reading about some of their descriptions, it really
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: seemed match the twenty four Elders and the descriptions that
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: they have and what they're doing, because you know, the
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: famous Manhattan have something to do with like a songs
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: and praise. It's part of their job. Well, we read
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: that about the twenty four Elders too. Also sometimes they're
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: called the Shining Ones and the dead Sea Squalls. And
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: you know, we see, we see that. I believe somewhere in.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: Daniel as well, twelve Matthew thirteen.
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: And I think this these this is all the same
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: group of people. It's it's us essentially. So while I
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: was going through all that, I decided, you know, I
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: really got to deal with this twenty four Elders thing,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: because not only does it connect with these these other
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: terms of the dead Sea squirrels use, but I'm a
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: pre trip rapture believer, and this I think is one
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: of our best evidences because if this is right, if
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: we can positively identify the twenty four Elders as glorified Christians,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: it can't be any other position. It just it can't,
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: because the twenty four Elders are already there with their crowns,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: with their song, with their white They're already there seated
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: pomp thrones. Yeah, and before Jesus even gets the scroll,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: so that, by by definition, is pre tribulation. It would
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: have to be so, so I thought, well, this is
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: just too good to not include in the book. So I, yeah,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I went through, and I'm sure we're going to get
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: into a lot of this, but I went through and
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: just said, okay, well, what attributes to the twenty four
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: elders have? How are they described? And do we see
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: those descriptions anywhere else in the Bible? And actually we
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: do in like literally the previous chapter from when the
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: twenty four Elders are introduced in Revelation four.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, this is this is awesome.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: And you know, when we think about the as as
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: you said, there, there's a lot of debates on who
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: these are and and so the first thing I want
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: to do is share.
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: And again we're going to get into the nitty gritty.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: But GK. Bio he wrote a book.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: In the New International Greek Testament Commentary. He great scholar,
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: great New Testament scholar, and his he summarized. He wrote
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: a commentary on the book Revelation. I don't recommend it
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: because he's not really he doesn't take it as in
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: a future futuristic way, but he kind of as a
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: lot of scholars do, they try to kind of stand
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: above the fray of all these, you know, these the
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: dispensational and the predicts and everything. But one of the
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: things that he did good in there was he highlighted
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: the options. So here are the variety of potential options
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: as given by him, a summarized we'll say that. I'll
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: say it summarized by him in his commentary Revelation number
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: one that the twenty four Elders are stars that are
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: like in the sense of constellations, you know, they even
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: though we know there's twelve zodiacal constellations, but it provides
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: a astrological background, and I think he pulled some of
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: that from Revelation twelve, you know, the sign in heaven.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: And number two they could be twenty four angels. Number three,
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: they could be Old Testament saints. Number four they are
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: angelic heavenly representatives, so they're angels again, but they're they're
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: representatives of all saints of all time. Number five they
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: are the patriarchs and apostles representing the Old Testament New
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Testament saints together. Number six they are representatives of the
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: prophetic revelation.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Of the twenty four books of the Old Testament.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: So a quite a bit right that work and then
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: it's interesting. And then another one, so I'll add on here,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: so that's end quote. Another one that that some people
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: think is that based on Revelation twenty one and twenty two,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: where you have the gates and the walls of the
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Heavenly City, where you have listed the twelve tribes, and
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: then you have listed to twelve apostles, So that particular
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: viewpoint is that, oh well, since Revelation the end of
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Revelation mentions those two groups, not the patriarchs specifically, but
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: the twelve tribes and the twelve apostles. Therefore, duh, there
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: it is. You got your twenty four. Bring it back
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: to Revelation four, and that's the identity of the twenty four.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: But it's interesting too that in his commentary he doesn't
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: list as an option that the church. Yeah, isn't that
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: interesting the one that he leaves out. And again, I think,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: you know, that's a I wouldn't call it a particularly dispensational,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: but it is dispensational.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: But you know, a lot of a lot.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Of scholars like this don't necessarily quote dispensational.
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very true.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: And and most people that I come across, and I used
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: to believe this for a long time too, is that
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: the most likely answer is probably the twelve Patriarchs and
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: then the twelve Apostles. And but when you really dig
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: down into it, like there's a difference between you know,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: the Church, the bride of Christ and then what what
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: sometimes is called like the friend of the bridegroom or
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: you know, we would say like the best man. And
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: you know, like Ronald Showers has an excellent book on that,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: and I'm blanking on the title right now.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: I have it at home.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: But he he goes through the whole allegory of of
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: of the Jewish wedding and how that perfectly symbolizes like
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the rapture and us getting our rewards in heaven and
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: all of this stuff. But from my understanding, and there's
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: there's different ways to look at the look at it,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: and I did write about this and why I believe
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: it in the book. But from my understanding, when we
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: get raptured, that's that's the church. It seems like Old
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Testament saints, their their resurrection or their reward or however
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: that works, comes at the end of the tribulation when
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Jesus comes back, so they wouldn't have their you know,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: the rewards that we see that the things that we
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: see that the twenty four Elders have, you know, the
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: crowns and the white robes and stuff. It doesn't seem
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: like the Old Testament saints would would have gotten that.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Yet that that that comes later. So to me, the
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: only group that matches and especially and well you know,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: we can go through all these, but you know, especially
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: they have a song that they're singing, and they're singing
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: this song about how they've been redeemed by His blood,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: and well that's not angels for sure. Jesus didn't die
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: for angels. We know the deal with angels. They don't
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: have any kind of redemption plan. It's just if they
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: fall or fall and that's it, you know, no, no
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: no hope of any kind of reconciliation or forgiveness for that.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: So angels can't be singing that. One of the other
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: main attributes to that stands out to me is that
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: they're seated.
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: We know that we as Christians were promised a position
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: with Christ that we can be seated and rule with him.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Angels are never promised that. And actually you never see
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: angels seated. You only ever see angels standing all throughout
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: the Bible, and and and and it's a it's a
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: position of authority to be able to be seated with Christ.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: And that's something uh special and unique for for believers.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: So I went through and oh and you know, one
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: of one of the other main things too, is when
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: you're reading, when you're just reading Revelation from you know,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: chapter one and on. Uh, In chapters two and three,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: you see Jesus make a lot of promises to these churches,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: to to Christians, and he's saying, you know, basically like
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: if you if you just hold on and if you
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: overcome uses that word a lot too, if you overcome,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: then you know you'll you'll get the crown of life,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: or you'll get uh, you know, white robes or he
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: he says all these things, you'll you'll be able to
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: rule and judge with me and uh and stuff like that. Well,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: then so that's two and three, and then chapter four
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: we're introduced to chapter four and five we're introduced to
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: the twenty four elders, and it gives the same exact descriptions. Now,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: how confusing would that be if they're not Christians? You know,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: it would seem like John would have said like, hey,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: I know this sounds a lot like what Jesus promised,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: but just so you know, this is a totally different group.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: These aren't.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: These aren't us Like it seems like he would have
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: made that distinction, but since he didn't, I think he
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: knew that it was just obvious. We just got done
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: reading chapters two and three, and we can see all
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: the same things that when we see those in these
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: twenty four elders, it's got to be it's got to
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: be them, it's got to be us in glorified bodies.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: And again, if that's the case, it has I don't
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: see any way around it. It has to be a preacher rapture.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I mean what, you can take any other argument you want.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: You know, some might say, yeah, you know, but you
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: know what about this, what about the angels and the
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: gathering and all that. It's like all of that aside.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: We can talk about all those other side issues, but
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: this one, if, if if these are glorified Christians, then
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: it absolutely has the pre trib no way around it.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: Yeap, one hundred percent.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: And as we think about this, they the other viewpoints
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: you know, mid trib, pre wrath, post trib, they're all
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: going to have to come up with a different level
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: of understanding of the twenty four hollers.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: I think two.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: One of the things that I think gives us a understanding,
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: and that is when we in Revelation one nineteen we
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: see the outline that Jesus gave. He says, therefore, write
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: the things which you have seen, the things which are,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: and the things which will take place after these things,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: and so you have a past present future there, which
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: is very important, because you know, what people need to
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: remember is that The impression that I get is that
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: John either wrote seven separate copies of the book or
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Revelation which were sent to each church, right because Jesus says,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: I want you to write this to the church at Philadelphia,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: the church at Ephesus, and so he at least wrote.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Each of them.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Maybe remember every again, every church at least had got
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: a separate letter to some degree because he was writing
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: specifically to them. Did it include all the rest of
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: the chapters of Revelation. I imagine that it seems like it would.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: He had time. He was on the island of Patmos.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: But the outline that he gives there in Revelation one
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: nineteen sets the stage, this phrase meta tauta, after these
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: things is very very clear. He says, okay, write things
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: which you've seen. Chapter one writes to things which are
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: which is the churches.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: Here's your problems you're having.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then chapter four to one is meta tauta
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: and which tells you, okay, after these things. John, he's
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: in the spirit, he hears the voice come up, he's
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: up there and boom, he's immediately.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: In a throne room.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: And that's one of the things that I think, in
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: the sense of a lot of people say, well, you can't,
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: you can't, you can't finalize the chronology of the book Revelation.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: And there is some chronological nuances there because we know,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: like chapter seven, chapter eleven, twelve, they're all parenthetical. They
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: kind of give they step back from a moment and
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: give this bird's eye view. But there is chronology. Obviously,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: there's a chronology of the second seal or the second
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: trumpet or the second bowl happening after.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: The first one. Ye, right, So there is this chronology there.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: So as even the outline itself of the book Revelation
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Medita out of chapter four, verse one is after the
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: things which are the churches and Now, one of the
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: things that I wrote about, which I get your thoughts on,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: is that if we look, one of the things that's
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: striking to me is we have a throne room scene
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: in chapter four and five. But what I wanted to
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: do was, well, let's compare that with Isaiah chapter six,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: you know, or even Ezekiel one, or even Exodus, where
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: you have kind of these throne room scenes, primarily Isaiah six,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: and you have these four living creatures, you have the
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: four chairmen whatever, even Daniel seven. But there's no in
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: the Old Testament, there is no group of twenty four
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: anywhere around the throne. You got the living creatures, you
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: got the other angels, you got the attendant angels, you
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: have the Son.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: Of Man, but yet no twenty four.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: But yet in the New Testament at Metaitauta, after these things,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: John comes up and there's these group of twenty four.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: It's like, hey, where did these guys come from? They're
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: not found anywhere else in the Bible. So talk, you know,
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: let's develop that a little bit. Does that have any
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: sort of persuasion?
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, big time, because you would think if if they
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: were some kind of spiritual class of angel or something
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: like that we should have seen some kind of mention.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: And then why use the word elder? Because on the
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: New Testament when elder is used, and in the book
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I list a variety of different verses to show this,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: But when elder is used like specifically an acts and stuff,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: it's usually just talking about like like Christians, like leader,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: church leaders, stuff like that. So why would John use
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: that term? It's it's it's either it's either John is
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: like trying to trick people. He's like trying to be
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: trying to use terms to make somebody think a certain way.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Like I mean, it's just John wasn't dumb. He he
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: knew what he was describing. And if it wasn't that,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: if it wasn't Christians, glorified Christians, why did he use
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: those words? I mean it would be almost like purposely deceitful,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: you know, And because he could he could have said angels,
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: or he could have said you know, Seraphim or Terrabam
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: or like any number of things. He knows what angels are.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: He talks about angels all throughout revelation, and he but
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: he makes a clear distinction between the four living creatures
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: around the throne and the twenty four elders in that
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: throne scene. These are two different groups. If they were
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: of the same group, if they were if they were
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: all angels, I don't see why separate them into these
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: two groups. And then but but yeah, you're you're absolutely right,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: And that's a really good point that these twenty four elders,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: the only reference we get to anything even remotely like
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: this is in the Old Testament, there were twenty four
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: courses for the temple correct. Yes, so, and that that,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: to me, I think lends more evidence to this idea
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: of the twenty four elders being glorified Christians as being true.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Because as I said before, the heavenly temple is like
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: like the real thing, and then the earthly temple.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: Is it's a copy.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: It's we know that Hebrews that it's a copy, you know,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: And even in Exous he says God tells Moses, make
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: it according to the pattern that I showed you. And
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: so you know, if if the priests serve the shadow
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: on the copy, that's the whole theology, Hebrews. And that's
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: why in Revelation sixteen we see the arc. Right, there's
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: a real arc in heaven. It's not it's not the wealth,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: it's not the earthly arc. So yeah, so we have
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: this pattern for sure.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so we get this, We get this pattern
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: of this, these twenty four courses of temple duties that
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: the that the priests and the Old Testament would would perform.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: So it makes sense to me if God wants his
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: temple run like that, Well, the it's the shadow and
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: then but of course at that time that wasn't the
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: church age. You know that we there weren't glorified humans yet,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: so and you know that that's where it's that's that's
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: where we got to do a little bit of guesswork
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: because we're not told exactly how the heavenly Temple operates.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: We get little pieces like in Revelation eight, you know
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: there is an angel perform and it is an actual
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: angel ye performing the heavenly temple duty of what would
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: be the day of atonement instance. Yeah, yeah, and so
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: we get little hints of it. So it's like, okay,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: there are times where angels do perform some kind of
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: duty here, so we do get that, but again, it
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: makes a big distinction between angels and these twenty four elders,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: and I think it's clear that the twenty four elders
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: are glorified here.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: Well, and when you go to Isaiah six, you know,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: and Isaiah sees the Lord and he freaks out, Oh man,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: I'm busted right, I'm a man of unclean lips and
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: unclean people. And then we have an angel dispatch to
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: go over to the altar to with some tongs and
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: grabs a coal and comes over to his mouth and
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: purifies it at that moment. And so that that's what
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: when he went over to the altar, he went over
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: to the you know, the altar of incense or whatever
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: to pull out some burning coals. I mean, that's very
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: priestly ish or and we're not saying their priests because again,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: as you mentioned in Hebrews chapter two, angels, there's no
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: salvation plan for angels. We only get redemption through for
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: for humans, you know, the sons of Adam, which Jesus
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: became one. But there's still there's there is the function
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: of there of this heavenly temple, which again is a
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: pattern for down below. So I find it very interesting too.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: I think one last thing, and because I want to
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: move on to some of the other descriptors that that
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: we both wrote about. But is it's not surprising to
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: me if that we don't see the twenty four olders
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: in the Old Testament because well, one thing in the
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: thrown room scenes, they don't exist yet. Secondly, the church
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: in Ephesians two and three is called a mystery, and
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: by definition a mystery was unrevealed in the Old Testament,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: and so you have that aspect that when you come
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: to the book Revelation, the final book, the church has
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: already been revealed paul'sman and revealing it, and so now
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: it can be revealed that this group can exist because
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: it was has been realed and they're there now. And
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: so there's a consistency there where I think people that
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: try to see it, if you make the comparisons between
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: again the Old Old Testament throne room scene anywhere, and
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: the New Testament, there I mean there's no contradictions. But
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: this group where they come from and why now? And
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: it just it's interesting to me that meta tauta, after
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: these things, this group happens to show up in the
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: throne and which again I think helps gives us understanding.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about let's let's talk about the some
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: of the descriptions.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so in the in the book I got, I
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: have twelve of them. And because in all of these,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: in all of these, I wanted to say, what is
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: everything we know about the twenty four elders and how
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: they're described? Because there's nothing written in the Bible that
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: was by accident, so everything's important. And I came up
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: with with twelve different things. And then I thought, Okay,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: where do we see these other things? Because John is
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: writing as if we should already know who these are.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: You know, he describes them, but he doesn't just say like, hey,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: these are this group. So where else in the Bible
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: do we see these exact descriptions? And you can find
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: every single one with promises made to us Christians if
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: we if we overcome and if you basically, if we
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: make it to the rapture you know, or or our deaths,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: you know, whichever comes first. But if you, if you
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: hold on to your faith throughout your life and you
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: don't deny Jesus, you know, you just hold on your faith,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: these are the things that you're promised. Well, the first one,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: the first one is that there's twenty four of them.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Now that's the only one where you don't really get
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: like a Christian version of that number. But we've we've
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: already talked about that.
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: That goes back to well, no, no, let let's let's let's
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: let's develop that a little bit more, because you know
• 29:08
  Speaker 5: the for example, you know first Chronicles twenty four, it's
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: very easy for people to remember twenty four twenty four.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Were describe there what David did.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: And coming up with twenty four. He could have had
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: thirty six, he could have forty eight.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, and that's that's another interesting thing that I brought
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: up too, is that there was actually I think it
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: was thirty eight thousand in total. So the twenty four
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: are representative of a much larger group in the in
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: the Old Testament Temple, like how David set up. So
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: there were all these other jobs, you know, musicians or priests,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: all these other jobs, and that twenty four, that twenty
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: four courses, that represents this much larger group. And so
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: it's not only twenty four because some people think, well,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: there's going to be more than twenty four Christians raptures,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: so that twenty four number.
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: Has got to be symbolic. And it's like, well, no,
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: I have.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: No issue with the fact that there are twenty four
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: specific people to twenty four specific elders that are Christians.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: I don't know how they get decided.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know if they interchange like it like it
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: was in the courses of the twenty four in.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: The Old Testament. I have no idea.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: It doesn't really tell us, but those could be Those
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: could easily just be twenty four specific Christians, and they
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: represent a much larger group of every Christian that gets
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: raptured and gets the rewards and we all get jobs
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: and stuff. So yeah, that's a really good point.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: So so for people, what we're saying here is or
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: what we're seeing is that in the Old Testament, David
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: had this large group, and he's like, Okay, in order
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: to manage this makes great sense, We're going to divide
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: everybody up into these twenty four separate divisions courses. You know, however,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: phrase courses is a biblical word, but it's it's just
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: twenty four different department heads. Yeah, okay, let's use some
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: modern language. And he's like, okay, okay, we're going to
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: have and you list them in your article and again
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: first chronicles twenty four.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: Hey, these are the guys.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: So then if David wants to talk about worship service,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: he's going to bring these twenty four guys up.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: He's going to say, hey, look, bring him in. I
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: want a meeting. I want organizational meeting. Right.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: So they come in and he says, Okay, this is
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: what went well last week in the worship service, and
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: this is what we want to do. And also there's
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: some issues going on with the temple administration and the maintenance.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: So we Hey, Joe, I know you're irresponsible for maintenance
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: on that there are things that so things fallen around.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: So you're going to talk to these twenty four. But
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: those twenty four are going to be real people, but
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: they are going to represent all of the rest of
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: this larger group, right, and so it now also you
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: bring it up, you know, and I bring it up
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: as well in my article. But the consistency is that
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: at least in two ways, David, they were responsible as
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: priests and worship. Yeah, now that's not coincidental. For for God.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: For God, for number one, David made him in twenty four,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: and God takes that number and says that's the number
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: that I want to choose to represent the greater group,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: like David did. But it seems interesting that they represent
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: at least the priests and and the worshippers, which that's
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: exactly where a revelation one says, right.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, talk about that.
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you're exactly right.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: And yeah, so so we get we we know that
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: when we get our rewards, we're also going to get
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: some task or some job. And now, and I don't
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: think everybody does, because there are it does say, you know,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: when we go through uh you know, the the Bemacy
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: judgment that some people all of their works, you know,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: the all of it gets burned.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Up, smell, but they escape through fire.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: Right, they're still saved, but they just don't get anything.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: So there will be people that don't, that probably don't
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: have any jobs and don't have any rewards, but they're
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: still there, at least still in heaven. And that that
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: that is largely dependent on how we live our lives
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: and what we do for Jesus and all that. But
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: uh so, and we also have you know, passages where
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: it's like, well, you know, to this one, I'll give
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: five cities.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: This one intencity.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: So everybody's gonna be a little different depending on how
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: we live our lives here, which is important. So that's
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: that's going to determine our place in the millennium and
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: what kind of things that that we're going to be
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: doing there. But yeah, some of the things that were
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: that were promised. The one that you brought up I
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: have on this list as well. It's actually number eleven.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: But God has made them kings and priests, so that
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: that's a descriptor of the twenty four elders. But we
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: find that in Revelation one six. That's that's a promise
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: made to us. And like I mentioned there, there's actually
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: twelve of these, so we went through the fact that
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: there's twenty four of them. Another the second one I
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: have is they're they're all sitting around the throne of God,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: and we see that promised in Revelation three twenty one
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: in reference to Christians.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, don't go to sitting yep. Okay.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: You know in the Old Temple, in the Old Testament Temple,
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: there was no chairs in there because the priests were
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: in citting. Jesus sat down, Okay, he also sat down
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: on thron his father, as you mentioned relation three. This
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: he says, you'll get to sit down with me as
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: I sat down on my father's shone. So the fact
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: that they're sitting it is.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: Very very important.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: They're on thrones, which is super important to scriptors. According
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: to Revelation three to one. Nowhere was our angels specifically
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: that we see promised to sit and sit on thrones
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: specifically in this regard. But here it's I mean, the
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: previous chapter says this, and now we're seeing this group.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: It would be really easy.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: To go from chapter three into chapter four and go, oh, well,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: the promise he made to them is now being realized exactly.
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: That's that's exactly what it is.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: And again it would be it would have been an
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: oversight for John to miss that if it wasn't supposed
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: to be the same group. The next one they're clothes
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: with white Raymond, and that's Revelation three four through five
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: that we're promised that if we overcome, they have crowns
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: of gold on their heads. It's Revelation three eleven and
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: three eighteen. And this is a big one because everybody,
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: everybody knows that this descriptor you know, we take this
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: on as as Christians. You have you even have like
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Christian bands that have this name and write songs about this.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: But that they worship God by casting their crowns before
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: the throng. The twenty four elders are doing that, but
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: we read about that for us in Hebrews four sixteen,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: so that that's another big one. They give honor to
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: God for all of creation. We're told to do that
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: and Romans eleven thirty six. The twenty four elders are
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: a different group than the four beasts which I mentioned before,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: and which we get that from also from First Corinthians
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: fifteen thirty nine through forty, with the different flesh and
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: things like that. They sing a new song, and that
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: song is really important because that's that's that's a big one, yep,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: it's it's all a song of redemptions. Angels would have
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: no business singing a song like that like no other
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: no other creation besides uh, glorified humans would be able
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: to sing a song like that. And then I have
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: a reference to Colossians three sixteen there. But they claim
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: that Jesus has redeemed them by his blood.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: And you know, we're even we're even reminded that in
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Revelation one five. So that that's another that's another descriptor.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Nobody else can say that like, no, no angel can
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: say that, no other created thing can say that. So
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: they come from here. Here's another big one. This is
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: this This, this to me is like obviously this isn't angels.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: They come from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. It
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: says people.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: Yep, like right in there in the in the.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Description of the other.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: So as we know, angels don't have different languages or
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: different ethnic groups or different nations.
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: And and you know, kindred, I mean that that that
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: implies reproduction and angels in heaven don't do that. And
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: then and then I put the verse, you know, Romans
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: one sixteen where it says that you know, we we
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: use Christians. That's how we're described. You know, we come
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: from every kindred tongue people in nation.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: And then we just talked about that God made them
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: kings and priests, and we get that Revelation one six
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: and then the last one, the twelfth one is that
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: the twenty four Elders they rule with they rule with Jesus,
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: and we're promised that in Revelation two twenty six through
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: twenty seven. So there every single descriptor of the twenty
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: four Elders can easily be accounted for, most of them
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: just in one chapter earlier in Revelation, and then there's
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: there's a few other that are kind of scattered around
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: the New Testament. But every single description that we have
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: of these twenty four Elders can be accounted for, and
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: when we find those other places in throughout the rest
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: of scripture, it's always talking about Christians. It's always talking
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: about what we're going to get when the rapture happens
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: when we die. You know, well the rapture, but what
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: when when it's time for us to receive our rewards
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: after the rapture, it's the same exact things that were promised.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: So to me, it's like, this is like slam dunk
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: proof of the pre trib rapture, because there's I would
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: be interested to know, And I don't know what they
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: say because I actually I haven't really heard any of
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: them talk about this, but I would be interested to know.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: You know what, You know that the thought leaders in
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: the post trib can't pre wrap mid Trib get multiple raptures,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: Like what do they think about the twenty four olders
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: and how do they explain it? Because it seems like
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: the only way to get around it.
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: They can't.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: They wouldn't be able to say that they're glorified humans
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: and maintain their position. So what else is there? They
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: would have to try to say that there's some kind
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: either some kind of angel or it's some kind of
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: massive allegory and it doesn't really mean what it just
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: literally says. And I don't think either one of those
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: are really strong positions.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Well, it goes back to, you know, kind of what
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: GKB definitely not a pre trib guy by any means.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: And again he has, as we discussed, six different options
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: for what they aren't, you know, and for being non
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: glorified humans.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: And so there is as we know, the Book of
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: Revelation certainly is.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Filled with symbolism, without doubting that, but that symbolism, and
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: not everything is a symbol. But when there is a symbol,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: symbols point to reality. It's not just a you know,
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: an allegory that is not true.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: I think the other thing too, is thinking.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: About the white raiment and that they're clothing white. When
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: I chase this down, you see in Revelation three four, three, five,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: three eighteen it's a very specific Greek phrase that is
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: consistent with what you see with the twenty four elders.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: So you see this this white raiment that is promised
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: to the church, but that's exactly what the elders are wearing.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: But there's other like in Revelation seven, there's other language
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: for angels that we're wearing white, but it's different Greek word.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: It's a white robe or something else.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: And so John is very clear that when you have
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: somebody to be given a white robe, that's not the
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: white close or white Raymond, whatever. And so you think, okay,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: that's another very specific thing that if you chase it down,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: the consistency is totally there. And so the other thing
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: that we can address is now some people say in
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Revelation four to one, I saw a door open in Heaven,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: come up here, that's the sign of the rapture.
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: You know, maybe I don't.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: Think it's super air tight on that. But so even
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: if we don't need that is what I'm saying, we
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: don't need that. But what I find fascinating is you
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: see a gap between at the end of chapter three
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: the letter to the Seven Churches, which are it's a
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: closure meta tauta. After these things, it's like, hello, I
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: just told you this in one nineteen. Well, then all
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: this sudden there's this gap between the meta tauta when
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: the church age. We've moved on from the church age
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: even in the writing of the book, and then before
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: the scroll is handed out. And so when the scroll,
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: when this whole drama takes place, who's worthy to open
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: the scroll?
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: Nobody's found worthy anywhere in heaven, on earth, under the earth.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: But then of course we know the Lamb appears and
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: he's count worthy. And so what I find fascinating is
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: not only are the elders, they're they're seated, they're on thrones,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: they're putting their crowns where they get those at Well,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: that's interesting that we know that the beam of seat,
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: like you said, crowns are going to be given. We
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: know that there's five crowns mentioned in the New Testament,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: and they're all reference. We won't go into the details there.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: But they already have the crowns, so they hadn't they're
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: not in the process of getting them. They're already done.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: And then they're out. They once they see the reality
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: or the worthiness of the Lamb, they lay their crowns
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: because he's worthy. But then they get to see and
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: observe this whole interchange prior and then they're there prior
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: to when he opens the first seal and calling forth
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: with the living creature the first horseman to come riding,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: which is a sign we know from chapter six seventeen
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: is a sign of God's judgment.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: So I think it's.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: Not mid trib it's not pre Wrath, it's even before
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: the very first seal itself, and so a lot of
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: people so even now I think this, there's a lot
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: of things that come into play here. There's people that
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: believe that the seals have been opened, okay, and which
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: I disagree with that.
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, me too.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: But if the seals are opened, then does that that
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: means the elders.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: They would already be there, they would already be there.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that doesn't that doesn't fit because we know
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: that we don't get those rewards upon our death, you know,
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: because somebody might say, well, those are just the ones
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: that have died already before, like like when Jesus like
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: ascended or something like the next day, like you know,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: there's something like that. But but it doesn't fit because
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: we don't get those rewards at death. We're we're changed
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: in an instant at the rapture, and that's the same
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: for dead people and the live people. We all get
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: our rapture at the same time. So there are like
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: people Christians who have passed on right now, they don't
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: have their glorified bodies yet that happens at the rapture.
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: So you would have.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: To say that somehow they got their glorified bodies and
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: they got all of their rewards early on before the rapture.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: But again, that doesn't fit with that doesn't fit with scripture.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: So so yeah, I'm and I you know, I got
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: I got some good friends and stuff that believe that
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: the seals have already started to be opened since since
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: basically right after Jesus ascended. And I very politely disagree
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: with that. I don't think it. I just don't think
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: it tracks. But because again, I mean, just just to
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: restate the point that you made, who are the twenty
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: four elders in that scenario. They can't be glorified humans,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: so you would you would again have to either allegorize
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: the whole thing, or you would have to say that
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: there's some kind of other spiritual being.
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: But there is there's no being where these.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: Descriptors, especially their song that they're singing and that they're
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: ruling with.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: There's no other being where that makes sense.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Yep, Yeah, when the and the thrones being there, it's
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess hypothetically you could have that group
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: as representative of non glorified Christians if they wanted to
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: argue that, but it seems to be that they would.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: The beam a seat seems seems.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: To be a collective effort that not again, after your
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: your dad, you go stand before the bab seat you
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: get your crown, because in Hebrews twelve you see other
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: passages that no one's going to be the church is
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: all going to be perfected together.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: And so to have them be perfected as it relates
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: to even either glorified body or their their reward given
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: as soon as they die seems a little problematic for
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: other New Testament theological truth. Yeah, and so so again
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: we what we're seeing is to summarize, we have all
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: these descriptions that tie in very very nicely with the
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: rapture Church having already gone through the babacy, received their crowns,
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: and they're sitting down on the throne getting ready for
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: their lord to then unleash the rat his wrath in
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: order to redeem that which he purchased, but the redemption
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: of the earth, and and all of so he can
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: rule and reiin and the cleansing takes, the pirits takes
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: the time. We believe that's seven years. And so we
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: get to witness that from beginning. And I find it
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: interesting too that in John, you know, Jesus says, you know,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: I no longer call you servants. You're my friends. And
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: because you're my friends, I'm going to reveal to you
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: what's what's going to happen. And so we get that
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: that the beauty of John fourteen, where Jesus is I
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: want to come back and receive youing to myself.
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: And it doesn't take you to where you know, there's in.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: My father's house. I'm preparing a place. I'll come back
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: and take you there.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: And so when we go there, this is part of that.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: And and so we go through the Bema Sea and
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: then we get seated and he's like, is everybody ready,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: let's begin there the full redemption of the earth.
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: I know, isn't it beautiful?
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: And it's the simplest and easiest explanation where the text
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: just explains it for you, and any other explanation I've
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: heard of who these who this group is is a
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: lot of over explaining. You gotta you gotta add stuff
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: to make it fit. You gotta you gotta disregard other things,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: you know. I just with this, with with the idea
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: that these twenty four elders are glorified Christians after the Rapture,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: it just all fits together so beautifully. And to me,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: in my Bible study, when I've when I've come across
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: you know, differences and opinions of things, you usually usually
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: just the simple, most straightforward answer that accounts for everything.
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: That's gonna be the This.
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: All comes razor right.
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: I mean it's if you're going to look at something
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: that the simplest thing, that is the easiest, often is
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: that makes the most sense. Not always but most of
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: the time, but at least we should start there. Yeah,
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: because you really get I'm surprised that honestly, of like
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Gkbal I'm any smart guy. I'm gonna have a lot
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: of his books, but to make the claim that they
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: could even possibly be angels.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it doesn't fit because all you got to.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: Do anybody can just simply go through whenever the twenty
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: four olders are listed, write down there what their speech
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: their speeches are, write down the song that they're singing.
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: And who they're talking about. And yet angels don't speak
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: that way.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, they really can't and be truthful. One other
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: point too, is some people have brought up and there
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: there is a whole argument towards textual criticism for this,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: and I don't have all that memory, but there are
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: there are some people that say, well, the song that
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: they sing some Bible versions. Uh, they're not saying, you know,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: you redeemed us by their blood. They're saying you you
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: redeemed them as if it was a different group, like
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: talking about like like they're not the humans, and they're
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: talking like you redeemed the humans from you know, with your.
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: Blood and stuff.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: And there is Uh, there is an argument that I
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: put a footnote in my book about that because I
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: didn't want to it's it's it's a long argument.
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: I didn't want to get into the whole thing.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: But Pastor Andy Woods has an excellent video on that,
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: and I linked it in my book in a footnote.
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: But we don't even need.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: To really go there, because we already have a biblical
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: president for people when they have a new song singing
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: that way, and it's in Exodus I believe chapter fifteen,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: was it. Yeah, we we have we have them singing
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: a new song about.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it was, well, it was right after they
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: came out of the sea across that they got redeemed
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: them from Pharaoh.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and in that song, they're not saying you redeemed
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: us us, you know, They're they're singing you redeemed them.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: So we already have a biblical precedent for somebody to
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: use the you know, those other kinds of the pronouns,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: even in speaking references.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Especially in a poetic worship like they are singing. And
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: so if yeah, I mean I think that idea is
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: is kind of moot.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think the accurate translation is
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: you redeemed us you know anyway, Yeah, I think that's
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: already going to be the accurate But even if it wasn't,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: even if it was proven, No, they are absolutely singing person.
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if they were, well, it.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: Doesn't do anything to the argument because we see that
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: in Exodus anyway.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: So, and it doesn't get around with they come from
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: every tribe, tongue, nation, people. I mean, they're again, you
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: don't have different groups like that of the angels so
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: or somebody else. So I think putting that all together again,
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: what's the easiest thing. The angels are clothed in different colors,
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: you know, they're the angels aren't sitting on thrones in
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: the book Revelation that they're busy, standing and working. And
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: we're not casting any aspersion of angels at least at
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: this point at all. Crowns of gold. I don't see angels,
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: you know, wearing crowns of gold. Those are very clearly again,
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: the crowns, even the gold is very specifically. I make
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: reference at Marticle about it that the crowd that the
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: golden crown is is specifically. There's one figure in Revelation ten,
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: but that seems to be Jesus for sure. But the
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: same idea he says, hey, I'm going to send on
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: my father's throne, and Romans A. Seventeen and eighteen is
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: very clear too that we are joint heirs with Christ.
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: That's right, whatever he gets, we get, not because we're worthy.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: That's why we put our crowds at his feet, because
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: we know he's the one worthy, but he that's that's
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: the invitation that he gives to the church and to
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: say listen.
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: And that's Paul's whole big deal.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: About coming in and being revealed as the sons of
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: God in that regard that we have this this eternal
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: destiny plan for us and you know, and and to
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: me and Psalm two when Jesus when the Father says,
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: you know, I will give you the nations for your inheritance,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: we need to go, well, that's wait, if he's getting inheritance,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: we get a piece of that, you know. And and
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: in fact, that's what he says, and that in the
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: chapters of Revelation two to three says it says, there
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: you'll rule and reign with rod iron with me because
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: my father gave me that, and you get to have that.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: So there's all this beautiful consistency with the promises to
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: the churches and then what we see right there in
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: chapter four and the rest.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I mean, like I said,
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: it's a it's a complete slam dunk for the preacher er,
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, and it makes everything fall beautifully into place,
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: and again not disparaging other people of other views. But
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: it's it's just when when you're confronted with something that
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: I think, is this weighty and this this convincing? Again,
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: what are the other arguments? I'd be really interested to know,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: like what a what a?
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: Uh?
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: What one of the leading thinkers in the post trip
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: camp would say about this?
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: Well?
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: That and the you know, if I go to prepare
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: a place for you, I'm going to gather you. How
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: does that work with the post trip because I've never
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: heard a good answer for that, have you?
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: Well? Yeah, I actually I have. I won't. I won't.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Well, not a good answer. I heard an answer, okay,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: And I don't mean that arrogantly. It just mean it
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: was an answer because I wondered that. And I won't
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: say the person's name, but he's well known. But he
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: gave a teaching on that. Somebody sent it to me
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: and I thought, you know what, I'm glad they sent
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: this to me because he was describing John fourteen. You
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: know in my father's house. You know, Jesus says, you know,
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: letting out your hearts be troubled? Do you believe in God?
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: Believe it? Also me and my.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Father's house from many mansions if it were not so,
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: I would have told you I go there to prepare
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: a place for you, and then we'll come again and
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: receive you on it myself. So you have that that phraseology. Well,
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: this particular person said, well, father's house. Well, if you
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: read the rest of the gospels, the Father's house, and
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: there's one there is one spot in the gospels where
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: Jesus says, you know, don't make my.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: Father's house like a den of thieves.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: You've made that, okay, So the Father's House clearly was
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: talking about the temple in that context. And so this
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: person was saying, based on that one is well, I
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: would say it would be based on that one incident.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: I want to be fair room.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: He was that to mean that this idea that this
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: is a rapture to some far away place is not true.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, okay, let's let's linguistically, let's run with
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: that for a moment.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: Jesus said, he goes to prepare a place, So is
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: he going to the earthly temple then to.
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: And for what?
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: And there's many rooms in the temple and he's going
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: to bring millions, hundreds of millions back.
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: To this this thirty seven acres that well, and the
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: temple's even smaller, right, I was thinking, it's gonna be
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: pretty cramped. It's gonna be pretty cramped.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: And I thought, I mean, is Jesus speaking in John fourteen. Look,
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go. I'm gonna prepare a place in my
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: father's local temple. There are many rooms. I'm gonna go
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: there and prepare a place. And when I'm gonna go,
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: but I'm gonna come back and then receive you to
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: myself that where I am you may be also, right,
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: that's the other phraseology. Well, Jesus when he was departing,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: didn't wasn't departing to the earthly temple, And so I
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: find it interesting.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: It was.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: It was quite again, when you're a post trib person,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: you have to deny that that John fourteen is some
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: idea of a rapture away because for them, you're just
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: you're basically not going rapture to him, and you're being
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: raptured to Jerusalem to up and down.
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: Missler called it the yoyo theory. We're coming up, we're
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: coming right back down.
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which I think is true for I think.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: That's true for Matthew twenty four, you know thirty one
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: where he got he sends the angels together, is elected,
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: but they're bringing him to Jerusalem because he's returning. But
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: I find it interesting too that if and I encourage
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: people to do this. So in one of the messages
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: I gave, I was reading John fourteen one day and
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: it's great because you know, software today we have is awesome.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: So I saw this phrase he says, so that where
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: I am you may be also, and so I I
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: was like, that's a very So I highlighted the Greek
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: phrase popoo amy ago it's like where I am. So
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: I highlighted it, and on my software, I just I
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: just hit right click and I said search for a phrase.
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: And I was like.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: And the results came back, and I was like, this
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: appears nowhere except in the Gospel of John.
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: Oh wow.
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: And I thought, and John is very much that way.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: He's got the seven im statements, he's got the seven signs,
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: you know, he's got the seven beatitudes.
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: So John is very specific in his writing. And I thought,
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: John is using this language. And so if you chase
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: down every one of those, and I think there's I
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: think there might be seven of them all of them
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: are referring to Jesus's departure into heaven to go to
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: his father. And so if you take that phrase where
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: I am is in heaven with his father and you
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: plug it into John fourteen, which it's exactly the same phrase,
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: it's just there's it's so consistently beautiful. Even all the
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: accent marks are exactly identical. It's like, where I am,
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: you may be also, well where is that? Every other
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: place is heaven? So John fourteen can't be the local
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: temple that's right now obviously practically a cam because they're
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: not off room. But even there, cloaked within that the
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: language himself of what John is writing, it's like, if
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: you chase this down, there's this little nugget of ah,
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: this is a very technical phrase for heaven, because.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: Remembery, he's talking to that.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: He's talking to people and he says, look where I
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: where I where I'm going, you can't come. And they're like, well,
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: where's he going? And he says, well, where I am.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: You know where I am. You you're not going to
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: be able to go, And it was like, what is
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: he going to go? In the dispersion, is he going
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: to exile? And he's talking about father. I'm going to you, Father,
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: I'm coming to you. So it's pretty fascinating.
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: Which I've got to read your article and watch your
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: video because you picked out stuff that I had no
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: clue about. That that's the first time I've heard that.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: That's that's amazing. Yeah, it's pretty fun, you know too.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: And again it's it's all credit to the software that
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: we have today, because it wasn't It seriously was like
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: thirty seconds. But praise the Lord that we can just
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: see something and highlight it and click it. But you know,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: so you know, for our listeners, kind of give a
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: let's give a wrap up here if you can't give
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: a wrap up for for what what we're trying to
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: say that several items as it relates to that to
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: the identity of the twenty four Hollars.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well just basically that there they are. We you know,
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: I believe you believe that they're glorified human beings who
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: have already been raptured and already got their rewards. And
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: if we can prove that, here's the really important thing,
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: because the rapture is supposed to be a.
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: Comfort to us.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: You know, this isn't and it's it's crazy that Christians
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: will fight tooth and nail over this thing. And really
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: it's like, well, we all believe in a rapture. It's
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: just it's just the timing aspect. So what kind of
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: thing to get angry and upset about is that? And
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of dispersion put on pre tribbers
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: because it's like, well, that's just escape theology and all this.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: It's like, well don't you want to escape? Like what's coming? Like,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, I would want to if if God offers
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: me that.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: Use the word escape, and Jesus is the word escape,
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: So we're yeah, just one that Bible.
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: I what's wrong with that?
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: But but it's supposed to be a comfort. And I think,
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: especially nowadays, when people see the world the way it
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: is and how bad it's getting, if they don't have
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: the comfort. And I'm not saying every Christian's got to
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: believe in the pre tribe rapture, you know, I mean
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: I think they should, but I don't think it makes
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: you know, it has nothing to do with salvation. But
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: if I wasn't a pre tribe rapture believer, I imagine
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: I would probably have a lot more stress and worry
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: in my life seeing where this is going, and it's like, wow,
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: we're not even in the.
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: Tribulation and martyr them, like we're all gonna be murdered. Yeah,
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: let's be honest.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: Most of them are killed. Eighty ninety percent are killed
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: during the tribulation. So that's our future.
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: And a lot of times these other camps to try
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: to soften that, they'll say, well, you know, there's there's
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: a protection God's going to protect that. That's not biblical
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: at all. Trasy Antichristis overcomes the saints, yep. And also
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: why is it using the word saints and not church like?
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: And that's that's a whole other thing. It's it's obviously
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: people who got saved after the rapture, they missed the rapture,
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: they weren't saved back then. They got saved during during
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: the tribulation or or just sometime after the rapture. So
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: I think it can help out a lot if we can,
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: just if people can just open their minds and just
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: at least allow for the possibility. Just look at this
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: one thing, the identity of the twenty four elders. If
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: we're right there's really no way around it. It has
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: to be pre tribed, and that's a really good thing.
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: Don't you want it to be pre trib you know, don't.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: I don't want it to be any of the things.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: I don't base my beliefs based.
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: On what I want.
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: But you know, but it's a comfort though, Yeah, and
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: and that's in the Bible says that that's what it's
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: supposed to be. We're supposed to comfort each other with
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: these words. So my decision to put this in the
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: book and to you know, and even what we're doing,
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: what we're trying to comfort others with these words, you
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: know that that Jesus is coming back and it is
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: going to be before this. We we do get to
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: escape this stuff, which is great. That doesn't mean that
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: we go around sinning. It doesn't mean that we have
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: a lack of preparedness for other disasters that might happen, because,
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: you know, we get a lot of these kind of
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: really baseless accusations sometimes like like oh, well, you know,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: you're you're just not gonna be prepared for anything though,
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Like no, I always tell people, you never know when
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: a tornado is gonna come, or a flood or an earthquake.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: It's always good to have emergency supplies, but if you're
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: doing that preparing for the tribulation, those emergency supplies are
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: not going to do you any good. They're not going
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: to do you a bit of good. That that is
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: a waste of money. So really it's just to provide
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: a comfort. And again, just I can't overstate it enough.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: If we're right about who these twenty four elders are,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: it's a slam dunk for the pre trib raps. I mean,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: like case closed, it's settled. So and I know that
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: not everybody's gonna accept it like that, Yes, of course not.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: But they keep a sharp though. You know, I really
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: do I appreciate the disagreement.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: Oh sure, yeah, well, especially when it's like nice and
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: respectful when they're when they're I don't like I've got
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: Most of my friends are probably pre wrath. You know,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: we don't really talk about the rapts for a lot,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: but we don't fight about it. Obviously, everybody here we're
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: pre trib But for a long time, for years I
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: was in the pre wrath camp, and really it was
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: I I can look back on myself. I'm not saying
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: this about everybody. Well, maybe I am, but I know,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: at least for myself, it was due to a major
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: lack of study and lack of understanding, because when you're
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: in a camp, when you're in a group, you tend
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: to just listen to their interpretations.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: You know, and their reasons and their interpretations of what
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: the other people are saying.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And then that's how you make That's how
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: you compare what they say about the other people. Uh,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: that's how you compare. You don't really go out and look.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: And when I I so, I was raised pre trib
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: but then after, like I became a teenager, somewhere around there,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: I started having my mind change because I was hearing
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: all these other options that I wasn't exposed to before.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: And so for every rapture belief that's out there, there
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: was a time in my life where I held that
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: belief until after a while, I was just like, Okay,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. I'm just Lord, it's
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: in your hands. If you want me to know, you'll you'll,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: you know, you're gonna have to let me know somehow,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: because I don't. I don't know what I'm doing. I
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: can't make a decision here. And so for a while
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: after that, I just didn't really study it, didn't look
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: into it. And but God brought me through a lot
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: of other Bible study that I didn't realize actually has
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: a lot to do with the Rapture. And I realized
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: that I just didn't have that foundation that I needed.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: And so when it came time for God to say, Okay,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: I'm going to try to show you the pre triber
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: rapture again. You know, when it came time for him
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: to bring me back into the rapture study, it just
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: clicked because I had all this foundation now, and I realized, like, wow,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: these these other these other camps, these other interpretations, they
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: have major, major flaws that really can't be reconciled. And
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: I and I'm not saying all of them, but I
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: wonder if that's why many of them are so angry.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: You know, because if you if you hold a belief
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: and you like you make it a point like this
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: is almost like an identity, like I'm a pre wrath guy.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: Uh, and then.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: Somebody challenges that, even if it's a respectful challenge, but
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: challenges it in a way that you can't really answer.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: I mean that that can be stressful, you know, especially
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: if if there's ego or pride or anything involved with that.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: So so all that to say like I'm not I'm
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: not complaining about any of the other people in any
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: other camps. I would be the biggest hypocrite in the
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: world if I did. But I will tell you since
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: coming to this realization and since having that foundation and
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: being able to really show evidence not just this is
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: only one piece of evidence, there's a lot more, yeah, exactly,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: but to show to show strong, strong evidence that yeah, guys,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: it is prechery, but it really is. Praise God, that's
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: that's the best one out of all of them. That's
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: the one that you want, you know, and it's actually true.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: It it just fits so smoothly. It takes it does
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: take a lot of stress off, because it's like the
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: tribulation is not anything anybody can really prepare for because
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be so horrible way and and it just
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: shows just another layer of how much Jesus really loves us.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're the bride of Christ. Is is he
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: a wife beater? You know? I mean, if we're in
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: the tribulation, we're we're under uh, some of the judgments
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: of God, at least some of them, I mean, because
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: the next closest one would be mid trim. So we're
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: even even if we had to go through the first half. Well,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: God Jesus is still breaking the seals. He's the one
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: doing Yeah, so he's not gonna beat his wife like that,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: you know. Uh So it's it just it just shows
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: even more deep how much he loves us, how much
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: he cares for us and wants to take wants to
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: take care of us, and wants us to rest in
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: that piece. So that that's the message I want to
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: get across.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 4: Is that?
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: Amen?
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: And for those listening today, I hope you enjoyed this conversation.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: We in many ways we just kind of scratched a service,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: but more food for thought for everybody.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: And hopefully we'll see all of you in Colorado.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: If we don't, maybe in Branson or other other other
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: spots along that, but we'll definitely hopefully we'll see you
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: next week for sure,