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Prison Break - Part 2 · Inside the Criminal Process

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever wondered why so many people hate cops?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Are you obligated to report a crime?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: And my third question is another listener question.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from uh Elise Lenoux, who is asking for a friend.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: How do you get out of a ticket for bicycling under the influence?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And Ms.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Elise also asked me to weigh in on the Lindsay Clancy case.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the current case that's going on in Massachusetts regarding the woman that um killed her three children.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, and welcome to Inside the Criminal Process, a podcast where I discuss and explain the criminal justice system in America using real-life examples and true crime cases.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Scott.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a 29-year veteran law enforcement officer and an attorney.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked as a patrol officer, a crime scene investigator, a field training officer, a detective, a parole officer, an investigator, a polygraph examiner, a crisis negotiator, and an administrator.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: I've also taught college-level criminal justice classes.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I also wanted to provide you guys with an example of in my last episode, one of the questions was, can the police lie to a suspect during an interrogation?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I said they can.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a perfect example of when this played out or how it played out.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um there was a detective in the in the department that I worked for that was interviewing a suspect on a homicide.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: We'd received information from witnesses uh who this person was.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: So he was brought in for questioning.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the detective told the subject that he was going to review the videotape of the homicide that was captured on a camera on top of the restaurant in the strip mall.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the murder was committed in front of the in the parking lot in front of the restaurant.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: So he he kind of established rapport for the with the uh the suspect, and the detective left the room and then went into the other room and watched the uh two-way mirror.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: The the subject or the suspect was nervous.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: He was talking to himself, he was shaking.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: The detective came back in the room carrying uh like a manila folder and a VHS tape, and the tape had a label on it, and it was labeled with the name of the restaurant and the date of the murder.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: He told the suspect that he just watched the suspect kill the man on the video tape.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So the suspect actually ended up confessing, and um, you know, that's a that's an example of there was nothing on that video tape, nothing, there was no camera at that restaurant.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: There was no no tape of this person, no, no recording of this person killing the the other person.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, and had the suspect not committed the crime, he obviously he would have known that he that he didn't and he would have he would not have confessed.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: But it this could have backfired as well, if for instance, the the suspect had worked at that restaurant or for some other reason knew there was no camera there, um, he would have known the detective was lying and that the detective didn't have that evidence.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to be really careful when you do that.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the the detective the detective took a chance in this in this case and it ended up working out for him.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: So on to today's issue, um, some other escapes I've dealt with.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And these are these were from minimum or lower level facilities in the prism system system in this state.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'll also tell you about one that happened from the from a jail in this state.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, in this state, escape is knowingly leaving law enforcement custody without authorization.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a general intent crime.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So even if you don't intend to be free, uh if you left custody unlawfully, you can be charged.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's also a charge of aiding escape, which is assisting, abetting, or aiding someone to escape at any point during the process.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you aid them before, you take you take a file into the prison, like you see on the movies, um, or during, you show up outside of the prison or the jail and pick them up in a car after they've escaped, or after you know, they come to your house and you hide them from the police.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: You can be charged with aiding escape in those cases.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, as a reminder, jail versus prison, the difference, jail is basically detention, or it's an incarceration for a period of usually it's a year or less.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Prison is when you've been convicted of a felony and your incarceration, you've sentenced, you've been sentenced to more than a year of incarceration.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Then you'll be sentenced to it.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: That you'll be sent to a state prison instead of a jail.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: In the lower level or minimum centers in this state, escape risk inmates are generally housed at those places.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or at least they weren't until about five years ago.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's changed.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: They take a lot of different things into consideration.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's several minimum custody-level prisons in this state, and they seem more like camps or campuses than prisons.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: The cells look more like college dorm rooms than cells, and they're set up more like a dorm than a cell block.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: It seems that doing time at one of these minimum facilities would be ideal and that inmates would behave uh in order to stay.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's the theory, anyway.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but there's there have been escapes from these minimum facilities, and it's probably because it takes less effort to escape from a camp that's basically surrounded only by a chain link fence with some razor wire on top.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: The minimum centers aren't as secure as other prisons, so they mostly house people with nonviolent crimes or people that have few or no behavioral issues, and and those that have a fairly low classification number.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I went over classification in a previous episode.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: The the when somebody comes to prison, they're clap, they give it, they're given a classification that defines or decides their custody level.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: So most of the inmates at the minimum centers, very low risk, no behavioral problems.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and inmates can also earn their way into minimum centers by following rules and staying out of trouble and getting reclassed.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if they're a high-level inmate, you know, if they if they stay out of trouble and they work towards it, they can go to their case manager, ask for reclassification, um, or the case manager can decide to reclassify them and uh and then they can earn their way into one of these minimum centers.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: The first escape I want to talk about is at one of the minimum centers in the state, we received reports that inmates had been leaving at night and going to a convenience store down the street to purchase snacks and and whatever.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we conducted surveillance for a couple of weeks, but it turned out we either didn't catch the the inmates leaving or the report was false.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Either way, there was an area of the fence that seemed to be not so secure.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And sure enough, an inmate jumped the fence one night pretty easily from watching the surveillance video.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: So he was discovered missing during the middle of the night count, and um we responded, notified the local sheriff's office.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: The inmates were in single cells in these buildings, so no one had really noticed that he was missing.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: We interviewed all the inmates assigned to that same building, and none of them had any information that would assist us in locating the inmate.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: We listened to some phone calls the inmate had made.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't helpful.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: He hadn't mentioned his intent to escape to anyone he had called.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: He only had one visitor on the visiting list, and that person was lived out of state, and he had called her the previous day or or that same week, but didn't mention anything about escaping.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we called and interviewed her.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she said he hadn't told her that he was planning on escaping.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so we had basically done everything we could.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes there's victim notifications, like you have to make sure that this person, if if they have a registered victim, you need to notify that victim that they've that this person has escaped.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we had done everything as far as our due diligence to collect the leads and and search the area.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um what you have to do in those situations from a prison is you have to get an administrative warrant.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: You can get a you also get a criminal warrant, but in this state, the administrative warrant can be put in the system immediately.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: So if the escapee is contacted by local law enforcement and the cops figure out who that person is, um, they would run them on the system and see that that he or she was warranted for escape.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So criminal warrants have to be signed by a judge, and it's usually part of the criminal filing packet.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: It takes some time to get all the information together for filing with the DA's office.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: You have to consult with one of the DAs, and it can take some time to get one of those warrants on the system.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the the administrative warrant can be signed by the executive director for the Department of Corrections, and it's easier to get it into the system quickly.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's a a no-bond hold warrant that's just like a criminal warrant.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: So if the if the police run the person and see that they have this warrant, they have no they have no choice.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: They have to arrest them and and put them in jail on that warrant.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we had completed everything that we needed to or that we could.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I made one final call to the sheriff's office, and they said, Oh, by the way, that person's actually in the booking area, and he's been charged with attempted burglary, assault, and resisting arrest.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: So someone had called the sheriff's office about a suspicious man.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Deputies found him trying to get into the garage.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: He ran from them and fought with them when they tried to arrest him, but they got him into custody.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I arranged for a transport team to go pick him up when the sheriff's office was done with him, and it was a it was an easy case to put together for the criminal filing.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So then, you know, I put the criminal filing together, and then during that week, um, you know, he was moved to a more secure prison.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And during that week, I took that to the DA and followed that with the DA.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I was never able to find out why the sheriff's office didn't call us when they found out that he was an escapee.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, hopefully they had planned on doing so.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, theoretically, he could have been booked and then bailed out, been bailed out of jail and released.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a good example of how sometimes things fall through the cracks like that in the system, and uh, you know, human error and mistakes result in in things like that that can actually happen.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So this same camp had an escape where an inmate had found a car unattended with the keys in it, and this this camp had um had different entities on there.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think the the state patrol were were also housed in a building within this camp, um, not in the prison area, but but it was pretty easy to get around in the whole the the whole camp area.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: There was also a um place where they were teaching inmates how to do bodywork on cars, and I think that inmate may have worked there, and uh he found an employee's car with the keys in it, and he just jumped in it and drove out.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: We had video of him driving out.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: He just he's just driving out like he did that every single day.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So he was gone for several weeks.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: We had called people, we looked at we called people on his visiting list, we called people on his phone list, nobody knew where he was.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we ended up, we had an investigator that was on a federal task force, so we got them involved, and um they got a warrant to track a cell phone.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: The inmate had, and I think we got that from the ex-girlfriend or something like that, and and they tracked him down.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: He had he was in a city probably, I don't know, 30, 30 miles away, and just kind of hanging out, just doing his thing.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think he was he was holding a cardboard sign, begging for money or whatever.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: So they found him, they arrested him, they brought him back.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Another one from that same camp was work crews used to take inmates out to the highway and have them pick up the the trash on the highway and and clean up the the highway.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they find guns, they find drugs, they find all sorts of stuff, and they're they typically call uh the state patrol when that that happens.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but this work, this work crew had gone out, and the crew member actually, the the employee for the Department of Corrections that was watching over these people had been assaulted by this inmate, and the inmate stole the truck, and and they had a an outhouse on a trailer behind the truck.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And um the inmate jumped in the truck and took off, took the outhouse, the trailer took everything.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the staff member called and and we all went up to the area, notified local law enforcement, everybody was looking for him.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we ended up catching this guy about three miles away, uh sitting in a bar having a beer.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: So his sister in Oregon had had we had called her initially and asked if she had discussed, if she had talked to him and um if he had mentioned anything or written in a letter that he was going to escape.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: She said he hadn't.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well then she called us, I don't know, a couple hours later and gave us a phone number that he had called from.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so we called that, and it belonged to a bartender.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we called her and she told us the guy had borrowed her phone and was still there and that she'd keep him there until we could get there.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we swarmed the place and he was caught totally by surprise.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was funny because this bar was in the not so nice area of the city, and all the other patrons in the bar didn't even act surprised or even make eye contact with any of us.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, local police, a bunch of parole officers, prison employees, uh, investigators, and uh like these people didn't want us to, you know, they did, they were happy that we were there to get this guy, but they wouldn't look at us, and they just kind of you could tell that probably, you know, 90% of them probably had warrants, but we weren't concerned about them.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the bartender in that case, she was given five or ten thousand dollars, I think, as a reward.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh she was really excited because she needed oral surgery and couldn't afford it until she got until she got that money, and then she said she was gonna get her her surgery.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was pretty cool.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: There were a lot of jokes about this guy, like, well, he couldn't even pass the bar, and that's why he got caught.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the funniest thing though, I think the funniest thing about the whole incident was the outhouse and the trailer were never recovered.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: No idea what happened to him.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's how he got the cash to buy the beer at the bar.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know anything about that, but I do know that that that outhouse and that trailer were never recovered.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: There was another escape from a different minimum center where a work crew member, uh, like one of the inmates, actually stole a car and drove away on a weekend.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it was hard to get everybody in, get a hold of everybody to get in and start working the escape.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he was actually about, I think, two or three hours later, we were notified by another state that he had been pulled over and arrested.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's that's a good example of well, this whole case is a good example of how convoluted this system is at times.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you'd think that an escape from a state prison apprehended in another state could just be turned over to the state from which he or she escaped, since there's basically a court order, a judge placing the person in custody, in the case of prison escapes, anyways.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the sheriff in the other state said he wouldn't let us send a team to pick the guy up until the guy had an extradition hearing and there was a waiver or court order saying that that we could have him.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the governing thing here was the extradition clause of the United States Constitution, which basically says someone who commits a crime in one state and flees to another state shall be returned by the executive authority, basically the governor, in the state in which the fugitive was found.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: They call that the asylum state, to the state where the crime was committed, which is the demanding state.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: But historically, states developed their own processes.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Governors refused to send people to other states for political reasons or the questions of rights violations would come up.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the actually the Uniform Criminal Extradition Act was passed back in the 1920s, and it was a law to standardize the procedure to return fugitives to states where they were wanted for committing a crime.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And in 1980, the Uniform Extradition and Rendition Act was passed, and that's basically a modern version of the Uniform Criminal Extradition Act.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens is the governor has to, the governor's office has to send a packet called a demand, it's we refer to it as a demand for extradition.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's a packet from the demanding state that includes a written demand, formal charging documents, affidavit establishing probable cause that the person committed a crime, statement that the person was present in the demanding state at the time of the crime, and then fled to the asylum state.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then the asylum state that goes to their that packet goes to their governor's office, and they do whatever they need to do to determine that the person is actually charged with the crime in the demanding state, and that the documents are authentic and legal, um, that the person's actually a fugitive, and um the name on the warrant is the same as the person in custody.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, does that state have the right to have this person back?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: So the demanding state's governor's office sends a packet, the governor's office of the asylum state makes sure everything's in order, makes sure all the elements are established.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if everything's met, the asylum state governor then issues a governor's warrant of arrest, which means that the asylum state will hold the fugitive until he or she can be transported to the demanding state.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not a federal law, it's a guideline that states could adopt to deal with issues when a fugitive from one state was arrested in another state.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's a good example of how the system is sometimes bogged down with processes that seem unnecessary.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the sheriff in the other state could have just said, yeah, come and get him, we'll hold him for you.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they're not likely would there have been an issue with that.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, I blame the lawyers.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're to blame for some of these issues.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I should do a whole podcast on just lawyer jokes.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I I've heard and told a ton of them, but it honestly, when they get involved in stuff, it just seems to get more and more complicated.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess that's why they people pay them so much money.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: All of these escapes mentioned above were solved pretty quickly because the inmates had no plan, basically.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So they all kind of left on a whim with no long-term goal or plan, which ironically enough was why they were successful at getting out of the prison, but unsuccessful at staying out.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because if they had talked about their plan, I guarantee one of the inmates would have gone to uh an employee of the prison and reported them and then asked for something in return.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: There was another escape that was in one of the the uh more secure prisons in this state where a correctional officer was feeding inmates in a real secure area, pushing the food cart, grabbing the trays, putting them through the tray slot in the door.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all on video.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: She gets to one cell, and as she's putting the tray through the tray slot, she looks over at the cell next door, the cell door, and you see these arms kind of come out through that tray slot, and then she turns and runs.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: So she obviously sees that this guy's gonna be able to get out of that tray slot, and she runs to a door, and thank God the person in the control center was paying attention because he or she buzzed her through this door and and probably saved her life because she was able to get through that door and then close it right about the time the inmate came spilling out of that tray slot in that door, and he was he was angry.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: He went over and he grabbed the food cart and tipped it over and was throwing stuff at the at the camera and the the other cell doors and stuff.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think he had some some pretty uh malevolent ideas of what he was going to do to this to this um correctional officer.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that that all worked out pretty good.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was charged with escape, and and the court actually, the even though the defense, I mean, they they were trying to prove that his head was too big the to even fit through the Slot.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: They had all these defenses, but you know, obviously, when the jury saw the video, I mean there was no question that he had got out of there.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: So custody in that case, law enforcement custody meant him being in his cell and being controlled in his cell.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: He knowingly left that custody without authorization.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: So he was found guilty of escape in that in that instance.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: There was a jail escape that I'm going to talk about that I wasn't involved in, but I saw it on the news, and then I ended up talking to the inmate later.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So a deputy brought in a uniform coat and a hat to an inmate, and the inmate just walked out with the rest of the employees during a shift change.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and it just went so smooth.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: So when they realized the inmate was gone, you know, they watched the videos, they they went back far enough to where they could see the inmate, and then they just followed him with the cameras.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And um sometimes that takes hours and hours to establish what happened and where the person was.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at some point they see the inmate um on the camera and then they they can watch him and get their their movements and figure out kind of what happened.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it didn't really take them too long to see that the inmate got the coat and the hat from the de where the deputy had left it.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and they were suspicious that the dep deputy purposefully placed the items for the inmate.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: So they called the deputy back to work during an interview with detectives.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: He admits that he brought the uniform items for the inmate, but claims that the inmate threatened to kill him and his family if he didn't help the inmate escape.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the inmate was caught pretty quickly.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Seems they all go back to where the people they know are and they hang out in their old neighborhood or whatever.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: But he was he was picked up pretty quickly.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I had seen it on the news, and probably about a month after they caught the inmate, I had to interview that inmate on a separate uh matter.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I interviewed the inmate on the case that I was working on, and he was very personable.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I decided to ask him about the escape from the city jail.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So he denied threatening the deputy and the deputy's family.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: He said, No, I actually offered the deputy$20,000 for him to help me escape.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Where'd you get the$20,000?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, I didn't have$20,000.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: I just figured I'd never see him again, and he couldn't report me to the cops.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I asked him how he had walked out so calmly because the news showed the video of him walking out with the other staff, and he said, he said, man, my heart rate was like 200 beats per minute.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: The shift commander was standing there wishing everybody goodnight, and he made eye contact with me, and I thought for sure I was caught.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: He said he just kept walking, and before he knew it, he was in the parking lot.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it was funny because this guy really he had no plan.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh yeah, he said he he said he was he was scared that he was gonna get caught because I thought it was a I thought it was a real like brave move on his part.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'd never have the nerve to do something like that.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So on to the questions.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever wondered why so many people hate cops?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to, especially since when you're in a situation where you have to call 911, you need and want the cops immediately, right?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: But what's the most common interaction the average citizen has with a cop?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: My guess is it's getting pulled over for a traffic violation.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, no one likes getting a ticket.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Some cops, usually traffic cops and state troopers, they ticket everybody they pull over.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I get it when somebody's angry about getting a ticket, but if it really was undeserved, you go to court and fight it, right?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've lost many cases where I gave a ticket or arrested somebody, and that's why that process is in place.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Although sometimes it's easier just to pay the ticket.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: And most cities know that.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Most cops know that.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when you make your first appearance in most cities in this state, the prosecutor's usually gonna give you a pretty sweet deal or offer, low points on your driver's license and a small fine.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it's sometimes worth it just to show up and then uh kind of plea bargain it down to a to a smaller uh smaller infraction.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So there's other actions though with police that that piss people off.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: I had an old man that was, he was actually gonna kick my ass one day for not making his neighbor park in front of their own house instead of his.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Some people are just jerks, some are just having a bad day.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this guy, uh like I couldn't calm him down.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: He was so angry, he was shaken, and I really thought I was gonna end up fighting the guy.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there are good cops.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you really need one in an emergency, you'll be glad that they showed up.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: I always wonder how these social media people, like the First Amendment auditors, and I always use quotes when I when I call somebody a First Amendment auditor, because most of them are ex-criminals.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they don't have jobs, they just want to get clicks and likes and they want to make their money that way.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: But they they when they call um, I just wonder how they act when they call 911, because the way they treat most cops and people in general is deplorable, calling names and cursing like spoiled brats.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: I saw a video the other day where an auditor was harassing a motorcycle cop.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what are you doing?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you shouldn't you should be out enforcing the law, blah, blah, blah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the motorcycle cop bumped into him with his motorcycle when he was driving away, and the auditor screamed and called 911.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought it was ironic because his whole life revolves around telling the world how worthless and stupid cops are.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: But the first thing he did was call the cops when he needed help.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it would have been funny if all the cops couldn't respond to his call because they were all busy being harassed by First Amendment auditors.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: That would have been um that would have actually given me much pleasure.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, question number two, are you obligated to report a crime?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Generally in this state, no.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: It feels weird, but if someone tells you they're gonna kill someone, you don't have a duty to report that.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Legal duty, anyways.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Morally, it's gonna be up to you.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if the person kills someone and the cops find out that he or she told you they were gonna kill someone, unless they can make a case that you assisted the killer in any way, there's no criminal charge for not reporting the crime.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Unless, of course, if you have a duty to do so based on your relationship, your job, your position, etc.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the third issue how to beat a bicycling while intoxicated ticket.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, in my state, a bicycle is considered a vehicle.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, it's anything that can transport someone from one place to another.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: So drinking and riding is prohibited, and a conviction will affect your driver's license status.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think I'd take my chances with the jury on this issue, though.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: In the state in which uh Ms.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Lenoux lives, the uh there's a specific charge for cycling while under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or both.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's a criminal charge, it goes on your record, but a conviction doesn't affect your driver's license status if you're at least 21.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and first-time offenders are usually fined$250 and not sentenced to jail.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think$250 is no matter how many times um you're convicted, that that's the maximum, that's the maximum fine that you can give.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's no jail time associated with it.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: So in that state, you can dispute the charge if you were stopped on private property, if the cop didn't have reasonable suspicion to stop you, or you weren't intoxicated.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: There's no test required like a breathalyzer or blood test.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if the rider requests a chemical test, the police have to give them one.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: So if you aren't drunk and they don't give you a test when you request it, the case will likely be dropped by court by the court.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um the cops don't base the charge on a blood alcohol content or breath alcohol content.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: The standard is that you were intoxicated to the point that you're no longer able to operate a bicycle with the caution of a sober person.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the prosecution relies on observation of officers.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: The person was swerving, they were slurring, they had an odor of alcohol.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: It seems to me to be overbroad, and it also seems hard to prove.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I would definitely fight that case.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, states have different laws regarding bicycling under the influence.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to search the internet if you plan on cycling home from a bar or liquor store, pay attention to the definition of vehicle or bicycle, and know what the elements of the offense are and what the prosecution has to prove.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Some states will count cycling under the influence charge against your driver's license and are treated conviction as a prior if you have subsequent arrests.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: One state, I think it was Florida, includes riding lawnmowers and golf carts in their statute.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, there's 17 states where bike bicycling under the influence is forbidden.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: 23 states it's allowed with limitations, and 10 states where it's allowed to bike under the influence.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you may face other charges though, uh public intoxication, disorderly conduct, reckless driving, et cetera.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: So and then in most states, e-cycles are treated differently, obviously, because that's that would be more of a motorized vehicle.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's they're they're faster and they can cause more harm.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So on to the Lindsay Clancy case.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is a Massachusetts woman who in January of 2023 killed her three children, eight months old, three years old, and five years old, and then she tried to kill herself.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: She acknowledged that she killed the kids, but her defense is lack of criminal responsibility or LCR.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a Massachusetts thing I'll discuss in a bit.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: If she's found to not be criminally responsible, she'll serve a period of time in a psychiatric hospital instead of a prison.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: She could be sentenced to life without parole if she's found guilty of murder.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: So generally, insanity is an affirmative offense to a prosecution, and the defense has the burden to prove, with clear and convincing evidence, that at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality of the wrongfulness of his acts.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: So an affirmative defense basically is a defense where the defendant admitted it's admits that they committed the offense, but if the jury finds the defense's evidence credible, the defendant dodges criminal liability.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So under Massachusetts law, if a defendant can prove that they were unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of their conduct due to a mental illness at the time of the killing, not generally, they may be found not guilty by reason of insanity.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: So in that case, the court would not impose a prison sentence, but instead order the defendant to go to a psychiatric facility.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: I am glad I'm not on this jury.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'd struggle with this case.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know postpartum depression and bipolar disorders are real, but without experiencing either one, I don't know that I can fully appreciate how a person can take the life of their own child.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy for me to say I would never ever do that, no matter how bad my life gets.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't have bipolar disorder or depression, so I I don't know.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you can't or shouldn't put yourself in her shoes or compare her to how you think you would react in her situation.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: From what I understand, she tried to get help.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: She was on a ton of psych meds.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think like she was put on 13 different meds in a matter of four months.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I know from personal experience that those drugs can really change a person.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I would like to hear from other people with those disorders, but again, when you're relying on testimony, you're relying on people that you have no idea how credible they are or what agendas they have.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's all gonna come down to whose expert is the most credible or seems the most knowledgeable.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: If the jurors believe the defense expert, they'll side with Lindsay.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: If they believe the prosecution expert, they'll vote to convict her.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh like I said, glad I'm not on the jury.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing's gonna bring those kids back.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if Lindsay really was experiencing crisis beyond what she could handle, is prison the right place for her, really?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously the prosecution's gonna argue that she was conscious and aware of her actions, and they'll show the jury a lot of photographs of the deceased children to bring emotion into the situation.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: The prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Lindsay could appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct and that she could conform her conduct to the law.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: So the defense's burden is gonna be they have to fairly raise the LCR claim and present evidence linking her mental state at the time of the offense to her inability to appreciate or control her actions.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna have to show that due to her mental illness and medication, she was unable to stop herself from acting criminally, even if she knew the act was wrong.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, I'm just glad I'm not part of that jury.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's gonna be a difficult case for everybody, um, especially seeing the crime scene photographs and hearing all the testimony.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, that's it for this episode.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: In the next episode, I'm gonna cover a couple of kidnapping cases I worked.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, as always, thank you for listening and take care.