Latest / None of Your Business Podcast / The Jewish Top Gun Nobody Knows with Major Joshua Zager

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The Jewish Top Gun Nobody Knows with Major Joshua Zager · None of Your Business Podcast

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I visited Israel when I was 15 and I literally said I'm going
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to find a way to serve in Israel.
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I always wanted to fly. When I joined the Marine Corps,
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I told the guys they wake me up 10 minutes early.
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I got to put on my to filling. I've been flying the F18 for two
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or three years and you end up leaving the week after 911,
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which I think it was Rosh Hashanah that day.
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I remember who buys sword, who buy fire, who buy water.
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I did 42 missions into Afghanistan, dropped a lot of
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bombs. None of your business, Oshi.
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None of Your Business, Michael. It's the None of Your Business
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podcast hosted by Michael Anoshi.
0:28
Welcome back everybody, to another uplifting episode of the
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None of Your Business podcast. I'm your host, Michael
0:36
Greenfield. With me, of course, is Co host
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Ushi Schwartz. And today we have a guest of all
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guests, someone who I've been waiting for for a very, very
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long time. And it's not you in particular.
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I didn't really know you. I was just asking my friends.
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I need a pilot. I need someone who's an active
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pilot, someone who's in the air that can tell me what the heck
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is going on in Newark and JFK. What's happening with the FAA.
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Tell me about TSA. Teach me about taking off and
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land. I'm so excited to have you here.
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And I have to tell you that just for the sake of everyone
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knowing. Welcome to the program, Joshua
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Zager. Is it Josh?
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Josh. Yeah, Josh.
1:08
Alright, Josh. So welcome.
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I really appreciate you being here.
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And I just want to say thank you again to our subscribers.
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I'm talking to the crowd now, the listeners.
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Thank you to all the comments. We're getting more love than
1:18
hate. Yeah.
1:19
So I think we're doing OK The. Paradigm has shifted.
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It seems to be that people are catching on and people are
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becoming fans, so it's nice, yeah.
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We'll see how long it lasts, you know, But we'll enjoy it while
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it's going that. Direction, we're growing.
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It's good. It's good.
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We're heading in a good direction.
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I think so, Josh, we have this little thing called ChatGPT says
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what about you? And that's how I begin to get to
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know who you are. And 1st 1 is a huge shout out to
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Haim. Haim who was on the podcast here
1:45
was a soldier in Gaza. He was actually one of the team
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mates that were responsible for taking down Synwar.
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And he was on our podcast with Akiva Shapiro, who was a nursing
1:53
home operator during the day and a soldier in Israel at.
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Night. Literally those two guys were on
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our podcast and I keep saying Haim and he tells me you got to
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have you want a pilot. I got you a pilot to the pilot
2:05
of Olpa. Not only is he a pilot today,
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but he was a pilot then. And he's just like, that's what
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your world is. And I'm excited to read this.
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I don't think the crowd is ready for this.
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And you'll confirm this is the first time you've ever been on a
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podcast. I don't know how anyone hasn't,
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you know, I don't know, grabbed you and put you out of I'm
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honored. I really am.
2:24
You went from flying F18 Hornets over Afghanistan to wearing a
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pilot's wing for a major commercial airline.
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Talk about switching gears, that's what it's saying over
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here. So I guess you started off in
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the in the Marine Corps, in the Marine Corps, OK.
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And now you're working for United Airlines.
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United Airlines, you know, I have a lot of listeners that are
2:44
listening in like United Airlines.
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Well, can I be a buddy? Can you get me a 1K?
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Can we get the global? And we'll get to that in a
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minute. But what's, what was your career
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like in the beginning with Afghanistan?
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What's that about? Well, I was a newly operational
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F18 pilot in 2001. I've been flying the F18 for two
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or three years. I was assigned to a carrier and
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we end up leaving a week after 911 on on the Roosevelt and went
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pretty much straight to Afghanistan.
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We were. We started the response to 911
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in early October 2001 and we spent five months doing that,
3:15
flying missions into Afghanistan.
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Dropping bombs. Yeah, yeah, I did 42 missions
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into Afghanistan, dropped a lot of bombs from like pretty much
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from the first missions to the end.
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Yeah, we were the we were the response.
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The entire world wanted to to do what I did to be the you all
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remember 911. So, you know, everyone wanted to
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go, especially growing up around here and and knowing people that
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were in the towers. It was.
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It was personal. It was personal, yeah.
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A guy I played baseball with in high school, I wrote his name on
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my first bomb and his family was next name was my family growing
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up in in little Silver Town next to where I live now and played
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baseball with them and and wrote his name on the bomb and then
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took a picture and sent it to his mom.
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Wow, Yeah. I'm blown away.
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I'm sorry, I have to think like. He's dropping a bomb on us,
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right? He's just like starting out.
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So like he goes right into it. It's like this is this is heavy
4:07
artillery. Right here.
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She very good. I missed you.
4:11
Thank you my. I have to put this trachy petite
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paper away. Yeah, I'm already like, I gotta,
4:16
I gotta slow down and like, oh, she always likes to say whoa,
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whoa, whoa, whoa, let's. Take a step back, start from the
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beginning. Don't know how this.
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How are you? And a fighter jet?
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Yeah, across the world, like, you know, now you're sitting
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here in a pot like, who the hell are you?
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Yeah. How did it get to this?
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Point. It's been a good ride.
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Where'd you grow up? Where your parents from?
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Let's start literally from the. My parents are from New Jersey
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and New York. Cool.
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My mom grew up in we spent a few years in Teaneck, which is
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pretty near here, right. My dad is from grew up in Little
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Silver, which is the town next to where we live now.
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I grew up I always wanted to fly.
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My dad was in the Navy. He was a lawyer in the Navy.
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And when I was really young, we lived in Subic Bay in the
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Philippines and the officers club beach was right next to the
4:56
runway there. And some of my first memories
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when I was 3 or 4 years old was, you know, Marine and Navy and,
5:02
and jets coming into Subic Bay coming back from Vietnam.
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Like they'd come down for R&R, the ship would come in and
5:09
before the ship pulls in, a lot of times The Jets will fly off.
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So there's a lot of activity there at the, at the Naval Air
5:14
Station and, and QB Point. And I used to watch, you know,
5:17
watches. I sit there on the beach and
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play in the surf and watch, watch the the planes come in the
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break, you know, to land. So I always wanted to do that.
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I. Got the bug early.
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Yeah, I used to put my, my dad had a hi-fi stereo, Sony hi-fi
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that he got back then. I remember putting the
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headphones on and making my brother sit behind me and, you
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know, I'd play with the dials and pretend I was flying.
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My parents are very Zionistic. I visited Israel when I was 15
5:42
with a like a youth exchange with the federation.
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And then the following summer, my synagogue had a basic
5:48
scholarship program that my grandfather had helped set up,
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that it's kind of like a birthright for my local
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synagogue. If you wanted to go to Israel,
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you could go on the United Synagogue youth, the US Y summer
5:58
trip. But I was like, I've been there,
6:01
done that. I already been to Israel, but
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that year, it was the second year that they were doing a
6:05
Poland Israel program, which is a week in Poland and then five
6:08
weeks in Israel. And I said, well, if I can do
6:09
that, then I'll do that. That'll be a good experience.
6:12
After the week in Poland, one of the second, the last day was in
6:15
Auschwitz and I literally said I'm going to find a way to serve
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in Israel. I, the first time when I was in
6:21
Israel with that youth exchange, I met a lot of kids who are
6:23
going to the army and I was just coming back here to finish high
6:26
school. And, but you know, so I, I kind
6:29
of had it was exposed to what Israel needs to do to exist.
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And basically I decided, I think looking back, maybe this is just
6:36
a little bit of a, you know, nostalgia, but I'm pretty sure
6:39
like walking out ouches. I'm like a different person.
6:42
I got to serve somehow, I got to do something physically to
6:44
defend the Jewish people. And so I kind of dropped the
6:46
idea of flying that that first summer I was there.
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I think the tour guide knew a paratrooper that was getting his
6:52
beret at Ammunition Hill because we happen to be at Ammunition
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Hill when the paratroopers were coming up to get the beret.
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And so I kind of said, you know what, I didn't know Hebrew.
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I learned how to read from my bar mitzvah.
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So it's kind of a pretty big leap.
7:06
But I said I could probably figure out how to enough Hebrew
7:09
to be an infantryman. So I said I'm going to be a
7:11
paratrooper and, and then set about trying to do that.
7:15
My, my route to learning Hebrew was spending a year at Hebrew
7:19
University. So I said I'm going to try and
7:21
stay on track with like a normal progression.
7:23
I get my first degree, I go to college, but then I'm going to
7:26
do my junior year at Hebrew U. But my sophomore year in
7:29
college, the Marine Corps came to my campus with a helicopter,
7:33
a little civilian helicopter, but they had a reserve Cobra
7:36
pilot who was flying students around to recruit.
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And I literally got out of class and saw the Marines there and
7:43
well, I didn't know the Marines landed on ships.
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What my dream was to land on ships.
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So I walked up to him and said, do you have any information on
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the Navy? Because maybe someday I want to
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land on, you know, join the Navy to fly.
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And he said, why we do that? We land on ships too.
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You want to go flying right now? So I threw my books under the
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door and signed a little release.
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So it was like half a slip of paper.
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I went flying with this, with this Marine pilot.
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And when I came back from the 20 minute flight or so, the next
8:07
guy wasn't there. So I went again and I grew up
8:10
sailing. I grew up surfing and sailing
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and windsurfing. That was just, you know, what I
8:15
did growing up on the Jersey Shore so I could fly the
8:17
helicopter right out of the gate.
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And the guy came back and told the recruiter, you know, signed
8:22
me up and, and he kept calling me and I kept saying thanks,
8:25
but, you know, I'm going to join the IDF, you know, thanks, but
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no thanks. Thanks for the flight.
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But I'm going to the IDF. And, you know, even when I was
8:32
in Israel, every once in a while my mom would say the Marines
8:34
called again. But I was out in Pennsylvania.
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And I did, I did the, did the Israeli army came home and
8:42
basically I had, you know, been out of, I had my first degree,
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but I, I always thought, you know, I'll figure out what I'm
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going to do next when I'm in the army.
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But when you're in the, in the IDF, especially in the, in the
8:51
combat arms of the IDF, you, you just kind of, you know, you're
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always hot, you're trying to figure out how to cool off.
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You're always cold, So you're trying to figure out how to warm
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up. You're always hungry.
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So you're trying to figure out how you're going to get a minute
9:01
to eat. You're always tired.
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So you're going to, you know, try how am I going to sleep for
9:05
10 minutes? You don't really think the next
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stage I got out of the army and. How long were you in the army?
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In the Army, 2 years. So you're there for two years?
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I was 21 when I got drafted so. Were you an Israeli citizen?
9:16
No, you weren't. No, I was.
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You enlisted, you didn't get. You got drafted.
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Yeah, I was technically drafted with my dad is a lawyer, so he
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got with an immigration attorney.
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He was worried about me, you know.
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So technically I was, I made aliyah and I was drafted and I'm
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not Israeli at all, but I went, I went to serve as a, as a Jew.
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And I was very cognizant. I never wanted to live there.
9:41
I love where I live now. I'm back where I always wanted
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to be, home where I am. But I wanted to go defend the
9:47
state of Israel and, and, and, and, and the Jewish people.
9:51
And it was an amazing thing to do, especially now in the last
9:55
couple of years. I can't imagine had I not done
9:58
that, how I would have, you know, when it was my time, I did
10:01
my time and it's. You feel like you contributed,
10:03
you know very much. So tiny little link in a very
10:05
big chain. I have to say first, on behalf
10:07
of everyone listening and myself, thank you for, you know,
10:11
being such a person that just puts themselves out there like,
10:14
you know, you're, it's, it's very, very unique what you're
10:17
saying. Very, very unique.
10:19
I know a lot of people that served in the army because they
10:21
were passionate about Israel and most of them stayed in Israel or
10:24
became Zionistic to the point, you know, where that was their
10:27
goal. This is just a young Jewish man
10:29
who got inspired and had an upbringing and the value system
10:34
that I just want to serve my country.
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I just want to do my this is what I'm I'm blown away.
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I was lucky enough to when I came home, I, you know, I never
10:41
thought I could do both. But why?
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Don't you think of flying in Israel, by the way, instead?
10:44
Of so yeah. So I, I barely knew Hebrew.
10:46
I mean, I can, I can tell you funny stories about like the,
10:49
the, the draft office and. Of things you said, I'd love to
10:53
hear it. There was like a 20.
10:55
So I went, I literally landed on a Thursday and I got a one way
10:59
ticket on El Al because I made all the I landed on a Thursday
11:02
night and the late flight Thursday at near 4:00 or
11:05
whatever when that flight gets there.
11:07
And by the time I got to the kibbutz it was late and it was a
11:10
religious kibbutz. So when I woke up at noon on
11:13
Friday and said hey, I need to get to the draft office, they
11:16
said easy tiger. You know, relax, you have to
11:19
wait till Sunday. So on Sunday I went up to
11:21
Tiberius and went to the draft office with my two day old two
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dots a hoot and said draft me. And they said easy Tiger, come
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back in a few weeks. I got a letter in a few weeks.
11:31
And I think I'm the second visit is when they give you a Hebrew
11:34
test and it was 20 vocabulary words.
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So here I am like a 21 year old college graduate with an 18 or
11:40
19 year old Mashaki assessing my Hebrew level and it was 2020
11:44
words like higher, second, second, third level, you know,
11:47
vocabulary. And I was like at the 10th 1 I
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didn't know. So I, I said to her, just stop,
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you know, I can't even get a 50. And she said no army
11:53
regulations. I got to give you all 20 and #17
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was ambulance. So I knew one out of 20.
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And I said, look, look at me. And at the time it was 93.
12:03
And the, the, the I had heard the army opanim were just full
12:06
of Russian immigrants and that the only thing you learn in opan
12:09
is Russian. You don't learn Hebrew in opan
12:11
in an army opan. So I said, look at me.
12:13
I came all the way from New Jersey to be a paratrooper, not
12:15
to sit in an army opan and learn Russian.
12:18
And she passed me. So I went straight, straight to
12:20
the Bakum. And at the time I was the only
12:22
paratrooper who was doing what I was doing.
12:25
I didn't speak Hebrew for months.
12:27
I didn't speak English for months when I was, I was the
12:29
only guy doing it. And then I became a commander in
12:33
the paratrooper. So, you know, and I went back to
12:35
training the next year's August draft.
12:37
I was a commander in in the basic training, in the immediate
12:40
and advanced training. You, you, you, so you pass the
12:43
IDF process right? Meaning you're, you're about to
12:45
jump to your next stage of life. Just have to ask you before we
12:48
feel like, you know, move past it.
12:50
Give me one memory of IDF that you can, you know, tell people
12:53
that are thinking of going to the IDF or somebody that's
12:55
saying like, you know, you know, I'm afraid for my son or
12:58
daughter to go to the IDF 'cause that's a topic that happens in
13:01
our communities a lot. You guys tell people who I
13:03
taught to fly, you don't want to do this.
13:05
You need to do it. So it is like any good hard
13:09
experience, you know, it'll, if you're the right person for it,
13:12
if, if you have the right mindset for it, it'll make you
13:14
into a most incredible person. But if you're not, it'll break
13:18
you. You know, I just tell my
13:19
Marines, you know, the right kind of alloy under the, the
13:23
most pressure becomes steel and the wrong, the wrong materials
13:27
under pressure just is destroyed.
13:29
So that's what the IDF is. Nothing really has been
13:33
difficult since the IDF. You know, it's, it's especially
13:36
what I, you know, the infinite, if you can lead in the infantry,
13:39
if you can not just function but lead in the infantry, you can do
13:42
anything in life. Wow.
13:44
So you're coming back from the IDF?
13:45
Yeah. You have all this energy inside
13:47
you, all this experience. Yeah, leadership capabilities.
13:50
Now you've learnt a lot, of course, Right.
13:53
What's next for you? Well, I I got back to the state.
13:57
So one interesting thing is I was able to get hired to be a
14:00
Madrid for the same US Y program.
14:03
As a leader, as a counselor, As a counselor.
14:05
So when I, when I got out of the army, there was a, there was a
14:09
lot of terrorist attacks. Almost every week.
14:11
I put in a request to get out a month early so I could be in
14:14
Madrid. I did one month, less than two
14:16
years. And I the way he did that was
14:20
this Mashaki Tash. I couldn't write.
14:22
By that time I was a commander, so I could speak Hebrew, but I
14:26
couldn't write. And now you can just talk in
14:28
your phone and, you know, almost perfect spelling.
14:31
But but she came down. I was with my soldiers at jump
14:34
school. My soldiers were going through
14:35
jump school. So I wasn't going to that
14:37
summit. We were down at jump school for
14:39
a few weeks. And she came down so that I
14:41
could dictate the letter to her that she put up the chain of
14:43
command. I dictated this letter to her on
14:45
Thursday. And then she said, all right,
14:47
cool on. I'm going home for Shabbos.
14:49
I got a hump jump. You know, I'm going home
14:51
straight from here. I got a hump shoe.
14:52
She wasn't going back to the base for Friday, but Sunday I'll
14:54
go in and type it up on Sunday. She, she was in the terrorist
14:57
attack and the guy put the blew up the device and then he rushed
15:02
in with another device like as if he was going to help.
15:04
And she was one of the people that rushed in to help and, and
15:07
she was, she was blown up with a second charge, but they never
15:12
found her bag for a while. So I had to rewrite that letter
15:16
and I got out a week, you know, a month, a month early.
15:18
And I went and was in Madrid, which really closed the circle.
15:21
A student became the teacher and full circle.
15:24
Having served in the IDF, being a paratrooper, done a couple
15:27
frontline duties in different places, it was just amazing.
15:32
I I can't keep, I I'm sorry, I can't jump past the IDF still.
15:36
How many jumps did you do? Do you?
15:37
I did 9 which is considered a lot.
15:38
I did my 5 to qualify and then I did a six with my my.
15:43
I got taken out to be a commander but I went back and
15:47
jumped with my original unit as like a end of muscle fun jump.
15:52
Did you ever have to jump in combat?
15:53
No, the idea, not since 56 has died.
15:55
OK, great, it's not that. Oh, so then I did through with
15:58
my soldiers. Training and stuff.
16:00
Yeah, three training. Yeah, I I drove by at 3:00 in
16:03
the morning once towards Yamamala.
16:05
I was going to the Dead Sea for an escape with my family,
16:09
actually. And on the way, we look up and
16:13
we see hundreds, hundreds of paratroopers landing all at
16:17
once, talking about two O clock in the morning in the middle of
16:19
a field near the Dead Sea. Yeah, Yeah.
16:23
And we couldn't believe what we were seeing.
16:25
And we pulled over and we watched it happen.
16:27
And they, you know, a lot of soldiers backed us off because
16:29
it was training. Of course they do it on purpose.
16:31
The land the tests AT2O clock in the morning or at night.
16:34
Like the the second or the the 3rd, 4th and 5th jump, I think
16:37
we're at night. Maybe just the 4th and 5th.
16:39
You do it at night, it's a little bit different than jump
16:41
at night. And you're jumping with also
16:43
hundreds of people, like, at the same time, like, yeah, it's on
16:45
purpose that way. Yeah, it's to get a nice tight.
16:49
You want the unit to be together, you don't want a big
16:51
spread. So it's jump, jump, jump, jump
16:55
and we train. That's what a lot of the
16:57
training is. Have you skydived in your life?
16:59
No, I'll jump out of an airplane for Israel, but I'm not going to
17:02
do it for a thrill. No, it's jumping out of a good
17:05
airplane is a bad idea. Wow, Yeah.
17:07
OK, All right, I'm done with. That it's not operational, it's
17:10
not. But if you can get yourself to
17:12
jump it out of an airplane, especially the second time, it's
17:14
probably the closest thing to combat that you can kind of
17:16
simulate. It's you're very, you feel very
17:19
vulnerable when you're up there and to, to just do what you need
17:22
to do and operate and, and execute the train what you're
17:25
trained to do, then you're probably going to operate in
17:27
combat too. So that's why Israel still does
17:29
it. Got it.
17:30
That makes sense, even though they don't need to use it, but
17:32
that's the process, right? OK, makes a lot of.
17:34
It makes, yeah, those have jumped out of airplanes and
17:37
those who haven't, and it's changed a little bit, especially
17:39
when you have to operate, OK. Yeah, I'm ready to move past
17:43
this part of your life. Let's keep going yes, because
17:46
there's so much so many layers to you.
17:47
I love it. You know, like I could do a
17:49
whole podcast about the IDFI can keep knowing like and I and I
17:52
want to, but I there's so much more to you that I want to
17:54
learn. So back from the IDF finished
17:58
doing this rotation. You went to work.
18:00
What'd you do? No, no, I got home and like my
18:02
little brother was at the Naval Academy and I got home and went
18:06
to go see him. He was in a leadership role and,
18:09
and it was an amazing day. And then I went stopped by the
18:11
bookstore and outside the bookstore in Annapolis is an F4,
18:15
which is a Vietnam era fighter on a stick on a, on a display,
18:19
an actual F4I got out and I was like, you know what, it doesn't
18:23
hurt to ask. So I came back home and I got a
18:25
haircut and went to the enlisted recruiter in my, in the kind of
18:28
the downtown BIOS, which is called Red Bank.
18:30
And I asked the, the staff Sergeant, Hey, is this, is this
18:35
even possible? You know, I served in the idea
18:36
of can I still get a Commission and be a fighter pilot in the
18:38
Marines? And he trying to sign after a
18:40
minute trying to sign me up for to be a reservist or something.
18:44
I said, no, I got one question. Can I still do this?
18:46
I know all about the program. I was being recruited in
18:48
college. Is it even possible?
18:50
I never thought it was possible. Is it possible?
18:51
So he called up the the officer recruiter who was up here where
18:54
the Turnpike and the Parkway come together.
18:57
And it was like, I was across the desk from this staff
19:00
Sergeant in Red Bank. And he said, hey, Sir, I got a
19:02
guy here who wants to be a pilot.
19:03
He just got out of the IDF, wants to know if it's possible.
19:05
And the guy was like, you know, shut the F up.
19:08
You know, I can hear he's like, no, Sir, I'm not effing with
19:10
you. And I'm like, he's like, no,
19:12
Sir, he's not fat. What are your SAT scores?
19:15
No, Sir, he's not dumb. And he's I had to talk to him.
19:17
So he, he he gave me the, the phone and, you know, he's like,
19:21
come on up here. I need to meet you.
19:22
So I went up and met the guy. He was a gung ho infantry
19:27
officer, a Recon Marine who'd been through Ranger School with
19:31
the Army and gung ho. But he'd missed the first Gulf
19:33
War. You know, he was in training in
19:35
91 and this is like 4 years later and he'd never done
19:38
anything real. And here I am a guy who just
19:40
landed his lap, who'd been, you know, I did 2 stints in Lebanon
19:43
in the security zone and I've been in Febron after our
19:48
Goldstein and like done like done some real stuff that he was
19:52
just picking my brain about, you know, tacticals, operational
19:56
kind of tactical stuff for a long time.
19:58
And then he's like, I want to put you in the Marine Corps.
20:00
And I said, hey, I haven't looked at a book in three years.
20:03
Let me do some studying. So I studied for a week and came
20:05
back and I took the test and I aced it.
20:07
And this is in mid 90s when the military was shrinking because
20:11
of the post Cold War peace to, you know, dividend.
20:14
And but New Jersey had two flight slots for two Marine
20:16
pilots and I got 1, so. In a couple days I had, it was
20:20
approved done like the security questionnaire because I told him
20:23
like, let's make sure I did the Security question in my first
20:26
time, my, my first time doing SF 86 security questionnaire.
20:30
And I, you know, and then I had to, I had that burden hand and I
20:34
was like, let me think about it, because I had a couple months
20:36
before I had to show up to Quantico.
20:38
And I, you know, when I visit my grandparents, I hadn't seen them
20:40
in four years, friends and stuff.
20:43
And, and I then I ended up saying, you know what, let me go
20:46
try this Marine Corps thing out. And that turned into it's almost
20:48
20 years, you know, I, I, it was everything about the Marine
20:53
Corps just impressed me more every, every day, you know, it's
20:57
just a great organization, so. I love it.
21:00
I got to do a pause again. I'm back at you now because
21:04
first of all, I'm feeling that energy of being a 21 year old,
21:07
21. Yeah.
21:08
And I'm hanging out shooting pool with my friends.
21:11
And my friend walks in the door and he's like, OK, hey, what's
21:14
up, guys? How you doing?
21:15
Yeah. Hey, you there?
21:16
How was your year or two? I was.
21:17
Yeah. I've been in the IDF about to go
21:18
to the Marines. Like, wow.
21:20
You're a competition for me, by the way, you know, at that
21:22
point. So I'm like looking at you like.
21:24
And I'm imagining that's your space that you're living in.
21:26
You're going to visit your grandparents.
21:27
You're going to tell your family.
21:29
I I'd love to know the energy around your family at that
21:32
point, Like, what's going on there allowing you to do this?
21:35
They're supporting it. Like we we're finally getting
21:37
you back and now you're leaving us again.
21:39
Like, yeah. Well, even when I went to join
21:40
the IDF, like, yeah, this, I wasn't really asking my family.
21:44
I, I, I, like I said, I didn't want to do this.
21:46
I needed to do it. I, I can't imagine not having
21:49
served the idea after being in Auschwitz of that, you know, for
21:52
me personally, there was no, I had no choice, even though I was
21:55
kind of, I was definitely a Unicorn back then, You know, no
21:57
one was doing that. I, I paid my own way to do it,
22:00
but I, I told my parents, you know, I, I remember thinking I
22:06
had some very close friends who, you know, supported me and
22:09
stuff, but actually they, they had been on the trip in, in to
22:12
Poland and 88 with me, those close friends.
22:15
So like, but my parents, I remember thinking, you know
22:17
what, I'll just tell them when I have to tell them and it's, it
22:21
is what it is. You know, when I got back from
22:25
the IDFI think they're, they're pretty much like, I'm not
22:28
surprised, Like they knew me my whole life.
22:30
So it was like, it wasn't like a thing for my parents.
22:33
You know, right? So basically if you had to do
22:35
it, they had to accept. It, which is my parents, my, my
22:37
dad says, you know, I'm living his dream.
22:40
You know, he, he, he flew in the Navy for a little bit.
22:42
He was in ROTC in school and it was Vietnam and he had met my
22:47
mom wanted to get married. So life expectancy of naval
22:50
aviators in Vietnam wasn't good. And he's, you know, I think I'll
22:52
be a lawyer instead. And, you know, both both my
22:55
grand, my grandfather served in World War 21 of them was in
22:58
flight training until, until he was transferred to the infantry
23:02
to get ready for the invasion of Japan.
23:04
But he'd done some flying for the Army Air Corps.
23:07
They're actually really proud of you.
23:08
Yeah, of course. Which is really nice.
23:10
Yeah, nothing but pride. I don't.
23:11
That's amazing. Yeah, I'm sure.
23:12
And I can't imagine now that they have kids and.
23:14
And I can't imagine what, you know, they were going through.
23:16
I was cognizant of it in a theoretical way.
23:18
You know, yeah, for those that are wondering her, his daughter
23:20
is in the audience. And yeah.
23:23
In a theoretical, I was very cognizant of what I was putting
23:26
them through. But just in a theoretical you
23:28
know, when you're 21, you don't know what it's like to be a
23:30
parent. Because I want to go back to
23:32
that interview where you're meeting this person and he's
23:35
learning about your history in Lebanon, which I didn't know
23:38
about because we skipped the whole discussion of the IDF and
23:41
about your tactical, you know, procedures, right?
23:44
What did you tell him that impressed him?
23:46
Tell me. Tell me I.
23:47
Think, I think if you if you're in the military, you kind of you
23:51
can cut to the chase and it's very you know, if you have that
23:57
kind of stuff in common, which you had a lot of stuff in
23:59
common, but I don't know, I forget what I probably told him
24:05
cut this the stuff you know, we did ambushes that's.
24:07
What I'm talking about, I'd like to hear that lingo.
24:09
What does it mean an ambush? What do you mean?
24:11
You're telling him you're trained for an ambush?
24:12
So. So in the middle in in the mid
24:14
90s, Israel was still maintaining the security zone,
24:17
which is a buffer. It's basically the second
24:19
ridgeline north of the border because the, the, the PLO and
24:24
then the Hezbollah were able to shoot into Israel.
24:27
So if you have line of sight, especially, you know, you've all
24:30
been to the Golan, you know, they had line of sight right
24:32
into the farmers field, the kibbutz fields down below.
24:35
And they, you know, the tractors had to be armored and they
24:37
planted the eucalyptus trees along the road so that they can
24:40
get around without getting shot at.
24:42
So in order to keep that from happening, there was a security
24:44
zone. We pushed them two Ridge lines
24:47
north of the border, which meant if we controlled that second
24:49
ridgeline we could we could have line of sight into the next
24:52
valley, which you know, it's 10 to 15 kilometers north.
24:57
Which gives you a technical advantage, of course.
24:59
Yeah, right. The terrain so and then Israel
25:02
had, you know, probably, probably pretty primitive
25:05
electronic surveillance, but the terrain there were there are
25:09
known entry points that Hezbollah had probed and found
25:12
out how we can get through Israel's defenses.
25:16
So in order to cover that we would lay ambushes.
25:19
We had we had observation post my second time in Lebanon.
25:21
I was in Lebanon at an observation post on it at the
25:24
where the Litania River bends, flows South and then bends to
25:28
the West to go out to the Med and right at that we called it
25:31
the the, the elbow of the Litania River.
25:34
We had AOP, an observation post right there that we maintained.
25:38
There are 14 of us. And it's almost like being on a
25:40
ship in the middle of the ocean because all the terrain up there
25:43
was considered Hezbollah controlled.
25:45
And so every time we had a, you know, resupply a convoy come up,
25:51
it had to be opened up and cleared during daylight hours.
25:54
And, you know, so we're up there, 14 of us.
25:56
We had artillery support and air support, but we're 14 people in
26:00
Hezbollah territory. When the sunset, we were on high
26:02
alert, you know, everyone was on the position and the position
26:05
was awake an hour before sunrise in our first light.
26:10
And we're all ready for it was very operational.
26:15
We couldn't take our shoes off. And one person can have their
26:17
shoe off at any one time. So one of the fourteen of us and
26:20
had to be during daylight hours. So if you were changing your
26:22
your socks, hey, I'm changing my socks.
26:25
And we had about enough water to take a shower once a week or
26:27
once every 10 days or whatever. And it was just very
26:30
operational. And then, you know, I'd be up
26:32
there. And then when it came time, we
26:34
were up there for four months and it was my time to come down.
26:36
I might lay an ambush because you know, if you're going out
26:40
for a couple days, you kind of work hard the last couple days
26:43
because everyone's knows you're going home to sleep for a couple
26:46
days. So pretty much you, you did an
26:49
ambush or you know, at least a couple of patrols back-to-back
26:54
to kind of pay for your, your time off.
26:56
So I would do an ambush in Lebanon, come back before
26:59
sunrise to the position, and then the convoy would take me
27:02
back to the border with Israel and I could be back in in Tel
27:06
Aviv, you know, for lunch. Wow.
27:09
Be on the beach in Tel Aviv for the afternoon.
27:11
That's a nice way to spend the. Yeah, it was like, so that kind
27:14
of thing, just blow it blew his mind.
27:16
You know, I I had called for fire once we saw a truck in his
27:19
blood truck that I was able to call the helicopter in.
27:21
And here I'm just a young, you know, I was only a Sergeant.
27:24
I was. And what happens?
27:25
You call a helicopter in and. Yeah, it was.
27:27
So we saw the the the Katyusha truck and we called the
27:29
helicopters a Cobra and we called it in and he was able to
27:34
eventually see it and blew it up.
27:36
In front of you. Across the river.
27:38
But you're seeing it happen, meaning you're so you're
27:40
responsible for the defense and you're seeing it happen right in
27:44
front of you. Yeah, right.
27:45
When the position we were in, I mean the we pulled, Givati had
27:49
it before us and they were attacked.
27:50
The Hizbollah came up. They, they over the course of
27:53
many weeks and months, maybe they, this old shepherd brought
27:57
their gear into the olive Col. of or Grove that was right
28:01
underneath the position. And you know, over weeks this
28:05
guy was just grazing his sheep supposedly.
28:07
But on his donkey he had a piece of a sagger missile, you know, a
28:11
control box and the missile itself and then a 50 Cal barrel
28:15
and a 50 Cal body for a machine gun.
28:19
And they brought this, all this gear and then, and then this his
28:21
Bluffs came up and put it together one night and attacked
28:25
the position and, and killed the Guevati.
28:27
And when we came up like they, it was a couple weeks before we
28:30
took it from him. So like we, it was very, very
28:35
operational. And you know, for a guy that a
28:38
Marine officer just been through training and he was, he was a
28:41
very successful Marine officer and he was a captain who was
28:43
recruiting for New Jersey. He was a recruiting officer for,
28:46
for, for Marine officers for New Jersey.
28:49
And he, but he never done anything real like that.
28:51
So I just told him, you know. The average ID of soldier is
28:55
seeing more action than some of the high end people in the US
28:59
military because, you know, like you said, Israel's defending
29:03
itself at all times and they're battling so many fronts as well.
29:06
They're surrounded by enemies. So the casual soldier is seeing
29:10
more action than just, you know, most of the people in the
29:12
military in 1020 years, right? So they're more impressed by
29:15
you. Just this, you know, guy who
29:17
just made his way from the IDF and he's showing up here out of
29:20
front door and he's he literally.
29:22
And he's like, he's got to pick your brain.
29:24
He's got to see what what is it like?
29:26
And. You know, right now, I think it
29:28
was on your podcast, the guy who killed Sunoir was a a young
29:32
commander trainee. Yeah, exactly.
29:35
Just the someone who was in the Satmar Theatre ended up learning
29:41
all the tactics and brought that back with him and.
29:44
The Times would have told me. That, yeah.
29:45
And like you said, also just using that leadership skills,
29:50
you know, you're in a team of 14 people.
29:51
You're the tender age of 19 or 20.
29:55
You have to announce when you're taking your sock off.
29:57
Can you imagine any yeshiva Baker listening to this and
29:59
thinking like, Oh my God, like, you know, yeah.
30:02
This is quaint compared to what's going on in Gaza, you
30:04
know? Yeah.
30:04
Absolutely, absolutely. This is.
30:06
This is. Routine.
30:09
But yeah, it's, it's it can't the experience, this generation
30:12
of Israelis, every generation is amazing.
30:14
But the, the, the, the stuff that they have to go through,
30:18
the stuff that they do what they're doing right now, yeah.
30:22
So you start in the Marines, right?
30:24
That was and you did. You said 20.
30:26
Plus years. 20 years. Yeah, 20 years in the Marines.
30:28
Which I was the last guy I'd ever thought I wanted to go fly
30:31
jets off ships and then move on with my life, right.
30:34
But the Marine, like I said, the Marines just.
30:36
So what year are you enlisted? What what year was?
30:38
This I I was I became an officer in 959596 January 90. 696 So I'm
30:44
just thinking from 911 perspective, what we said
30:47
earlier, right, how many years you're having to prepare and
30:49
become who you are. You're not knowing this is
30:52
coming, but you know, think back now.
30:54
It's crazy. I came, you know, I just, back
30:56
in the day, it was like, remember the Queen old days
30:58
before terrorism came to our shores?
30:59
You know, I, I figured I was done fighting terrorists.
31:02
That's something Israel needs to do.
31:03
And now I'm back. I, I thought I'd just be, I, I
31:07
never thought I'd have to go to war for the United States.
31:11
It's just, I thought I'd be, you know, just peace, you know.
31:15
So I, I joined in 96 and it takes a while to become a pilot.
31:19
I in the Marines, you have to do about a year of training to
31:21
become a Marine officer, which was, it's amazing training.
31:25
It you know, every Marine officer does everything.
31:27
You're talking about the guy with the big hat that's yelling
31:28
at you like that type of thing. Training, No.
31:30
I never had to do that, but like at first I became a Marine
31:35
officer. Takes about 10 weeks.
31:36
OK. And then you go through, we have
31:38
the basics school, which is, you know, you learn how to call for
31:41
fire, you know, artillery, you learn engineering, you learn
31:45
offense defence in the infantry wise offense defence.
31:49
You, you take classes on the Uniform Code of Military
31:52
Justice. Even though you're not going to
31:54
become a lawyer, but we have lawyers in our class.
31:56
You know, you take Marine Corps officers basically go through
32:01
Marine Corps one O 1 of all, all aspects of which makes it makes
32:05
a little bit different. You know, 1 you spend that takes
32:09
about 6-7 months. You spend you're with, you know,
32:12
when I, when I'm called in to drop bombs for somebody, there's
32:15
a good chance I know the guy or he knows someone that that I
32:19
know. So you feel that it's just like
32:23
they feel that like we're one big team.
32:25
So I did that and then you go to Navy flight school and you know,
32:29
after you've done done with that.
32:30
So that took took me about 2 1/2 years of flying to get to the
32:32
F18 and then about a year of learning the F18 before I got to
32:36
an operational squadron. And then I was in that
32:38
operational squadron about a year before 9/11.
32:40
I see. So, and then just for the casual
32:43
listener, which is myself, Navy, Marines, Army, the difference
32:48
between them real quick is. The Marines are the.
32:50
Easy way to look at it. Yeah.
32:51
So we have the Department of Navy, Department of Air Force,
32:54
the Department of the Army. And now we have Space Force with
32:57
the Coast Guard too. In the Department of the Navy is
32:59
the Marine Corps, which most Americans don't realize the
33:02
Marine Corps is so prominent. We're we're tiny relative to the
33:05
other services, but we're we're in the Department of the Navy.
33:10
So yeah. And the Navy's responsible for.
33:13
The Navy is for for sea dominance, got it.
33:19
And, but strictly speaking, the Navy kind of stays on ships and
33:24
the Marine is it goes ashore in what we call the littoral zone,
33:28
like the first X amount of miles from from the beach inland.
33:32
That's what the Marine Corps controls.
33:34
So from your perspective, you're already getting the best of both
33:36
worlds, yeah. Right.
33:37
Where's the Air Force involved? Isn't the Air Force separate
33:39
from the Navy? Yes.
33:41
You're not in the Air Force. No, I was in the I was a pilot
33:44
in the Marines, which means I'm a naval aviator.
33:46
Taking me back to when you were a teenager, that's when you saw
33:49
the helicopter and you're like, oh, I could do both.
33:51
And that's what ended up happening for you, which is kind
33:52
of cool. Yeah, totally.
33:53
Yeah. I I didn't know the Marines had
33:55
jets, right? Did you ever run like fly a
33:59
plane prior to going to flights? No, never.
34:01
No, this captain particular that recruited me said, hey, one of
34:04
the questions of the test is have you ever flown an airplane?
34:06
And I hadn't yet. So I called a friend who his
34:09
brother was a pilot, like a Cessna guy, and he took me
34:13
flying and let me fly it, you know, for 20 minutes whenever I
34:16
flew it. And I'd flown a helicopter.
34:19
Yeah, I'd flown a helicopter. But the question was, have you
34:21
flown an airplane? I was, you know, let me just so.
34:23
Yeah. So I can answer yes to that
34:24
question one. Second, did I, did I fly a
34:26
helicopter? Hold on.
34:27
No. Yeah, not yet.
34:28
Yeah. I don't know if I've.
34:30
Had on a helicopter at that point flying one.
34:32
I I agreed. Yeah.
34:34
That's like very, very rare. How old were you the first time
34:38
you actually flew a fighter jet by yourself?
34:41
By the way, are they single seaters?
34:43
Yeah, right. It's not too.
34:45
To one person, that's probably 20.
34:46
So the first time I flew a plane by myself, it happens like I
34:49
think the 14th flight in the, in the first plane you fly in the
34:52
Navy. By the time I flew F eighteens,
34:53
I'd already flown 3 airplanes. At the time there were three
34:57
airplanes in the jet pipeline and then I flew F eighteens.
35:00
So it's the fourth airplane I flew.
35:02
But you fly solo right away. I think it was a 14th flight and
35:06
at the time it was AT34, which is a turboprop tandem seat twin
35:11
2 seat trainer. And then I flew AT2, which is my
35:14
first jet, and then a A4 Skyhawks, which is a Vietnam era
35:19
jet, which was a trainer back then.
35:22
And that, that the, you know, especially after like the second
35:25
plane, you fly in the third plane, it's very early on that
35:27
you fly by yourself. You're, you're being trained to
35:29
be in, in, in that pipeline, in the jet pipeline, you're being
35:33
trained to be a single seat aviator.
35:35
And some of the Navy guys and some of the Marines have go to
35:37
two seats, but you're trained to be a single seat guy.
35:40
Did you vividly remember that first time to pull up and you're
35:43
in the ear and like you're flying by yourself now?
35:45
I wouldn't say vividly, but I, you know, I remember thinking, I
35:48
can't believe it'll let me go do this.
35:50
Yeah. But the training is so good.
35:52
Like, yeah, you definitely feel like you were taking your dad's
35:55
car out when you're 15 or something.
35:57
Yeah. And you're like nervous,
35:58
excited. Like what?
35:59
What are you? What are you feeling?
36:00
It's like it's all that. I'm scared.
36:03
Not scared, yeah, just scared of messing up.
36:07
Yeah. You know, you don't, you don't
36:08
want to mess up. The way the training works is
36:10
you're not really scared of. You can't be scared.
36:13
You can't operate if you're scared.
36:14
So you're just maybe if you're scared of anything, it's just
36:17
not performing up to. Your yeah.
36:19
And all this is exercises, right at this point, like you're not
36:21
actually doing any type of missions just yet, right?
36:24
Like you're going up there, you do whatever it is that you need
36:26
to do and then you're then you're coming back and that's
36:28
it. Yeah, it's, it's the way, the
36:29
way military train, flight training works is the you never
36:33
really get comfortable. It's like going to the gym, it
36:36
seems you can do 2 plates, they're putting another 10 on
36:38
each side. So you never really, you never
36:41
really get comfortable. And that's the way it's got to
36:42
be. So that when I had to go to
36:44
combat, it was like, yeah, it was almost easy.
36:46
Yeah. Sounds like a good recipe for
36:48
life like. Just the kind and.
36:50
You said that earlier and I, I love, you know, seeing the
36:54
comparison of life when it comes to these kind of things like
36:57
keep pushing yourself, right. So what do you take out of that?
36:59
Wow, You, you asked me before we went on like about being
37:02
religious. I, I think it's very, it's
37:05
parallel. Like I, I feel like flying is
37:08
the physical world and I was a master of manipulating machines
37:14
in the physical world. That's what I was trained to do
37:16
for years. And then you know what?
37:19
Now you learn about growing as a, as a person in a spiritual
37:22
way. It's the same thing.
37:24
It's like the same thing just always how can get better if it
37:28
as an aviator, if you consider yourself good, you're you're
37:31
dangerous. What people don't realize.
37:33
And I was talking to my rabbi yesterday and so I was yeah.
37:36
You know, we're talking about a big adeem.
37:39
How it's, you know, bogged. It's come from the word bogged,
37:41
like your clothes can, you know, not be who you are.
37:45
And and I was thinking like we, you know, when we go flying in,
37:48
in the Marine Corps, you know, you walk around the ship,
37:51
everyone knows you're an aviator.
37:52
You're a fighter pot from the patch you're wearing.
37:55
But and and we and we are very confident.
37:57
If you're comfortable with who you are and you're not trying to
38:00
get better, you're dangerous. And the same thing with I think
38:02
is being a Jew. You know, if you're if you're
38:04
comfortable or you're not, you know, it's all you got to keep
38:06
moving forward and just keep improving and keep challenging
38:11
yourself. And and you know, I heard one of
38:13
you say you're working on yourself and it was you.
38:17
I think lately it's also him. So we're trying it.
38:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're we're working if.
38:21
You're not growing, you're going backwards.
38:23
Exactly I wanted to pick. Up on what you just said, by the
38:25
way, you're, you're dangerous. Like first of all, I have a
38:28
question. What's your call sign, Zed?
38:31
Zed. Yeah, OK.
38:33
And like, you know, you like we're like spewing Top Gun right
38:36
there, like telling an Ice man told Maverick.
38:38
Yeah. You know you're dangerous.
38:40
The themes in that movie are real.
38:41
It's, it's really cheesy and it's, and it's, it's really
38:44
cheesy and really Hollywood. But I saw that when I was young.
38:48
That's when I, I learned a lot about, you know, what being a,
38:51
what Naval aviation is about. And the themes in it, like I
38:54
said, are very real. I, I had a friend who flew 2
38:57
seats and his, he had a mishap and his backseater didn't
39:00
survive and he's still plagued by it today.
39:02
Yeah. I like he didn't.
39:03
You know, you when the pilot, your backseater goes out flying
39:06
with you, you need to bring him home.
39:08
And how do you face his wife and his son if you didn't bring him
39:11
back? And that's a big theme in that
39:13
first movie. And, you know, that's real.
39:17
And I'm not like, I'm not being dramatic when I say you're
39:19
dangerous if, you know, if you're not, if there's a special
39:23
kind of humility that we, that all naval aviators have, you
39:26
know, especially when you try and land on a ship at night.
39:28
We may seem, you know, cocky and overconfident, but there's no
39:32
such thing as overconfidence in a cockpit.
39:35
You're constantly thinking, what can I do better?
39:36
What can I, you know, this little mistake that I made?
39:40
How can I not yesterday? How can I not make that today?
39:43
You know, and when you're by yourself, you know, hopefully
39:47
the mistakes you make, you catch.
39:51
When did you open that world of spirituality?
39:54
It seems like it's something. I think I always had it, yeah.
39:56
I just didn't. I didn't grow up with religion,
39:58
so I didn't. I grew up conservative, which
40:00
wasn't really spiritual. I think I always had it deep
40:03
down. I just.
40:04
Didn't have a framework for it. Can you share with us what
40:07
happened like it did it? So, yeah, I mean, it's been a
40:09
lot, obviously long. I I, I wanted to go to a
40:12
religious kibbutz for a few reasons.
40:15
One, I want, I want to go to kibbutz because being a combat,
40:19
being the paratroopers and the combat arms, I didn't want to
40:22
have to worry about doing my laundry and going shopping on
40:24
Friday afternoon after not sleeping for a couple days.
40:26
You know, I'd heard all this, so I wanted to go to kibbutz, but I
40:29
was going there to serve as a Jew.
40:30
I didn't want to go to kibbutz. That was Khilani.
40:33
Got it. OK, so I there's a few, there's
40:35
a few kibbits. You know, so as a conservative
40:37
Jew, you're in Israel and you're like, let me go to a religious
40:40
kibbutz. Also, I wanted to know.
40:41
It just made sense. Yeah, it made sense.
40:42
And I wanted to know more about it.
40:45
Sure. I had never kept, actually in
40:47
the US why we kind of kept Shabbat, but we really didn't.
40:51
So I went to a religious kibbutz.
40:52
And so there, you know, I learned I was exposed to it.
40:56
Obviously, I kept kosher in the idea because I was either in the
40:58
kibbutz or in the army, and the army keeps kosher too.
41:00
And I didn't really keep Shabbat on the IDF because if you're on
41:03
the base, if you're in Lebanon on Saturday, it's just like
41:06
Friday. It's got to be right on the
41:10
kibbutz, you know? And I was exposed to holidays
41:12
I'd never heard of before. Did you experience Purim?
41:15
Yeah, yeah, Purim we used to do as kids.
41:17
So what? What was another new one for you
41:18
then? Well, I guess to Shabab, I
41:21
really, I, I was exposed to that on a summer trip That's I never
41:24
heard about that because it was in the summer.
41:26
Like we took the summer off from being Jewish.
41:28
So like, yeah, so I, I think it. But so I was in the religious
41:34
kibbutz and there was an American kid there.
41:36
He wasn't there for the army. He was there to learn Hebrew,
41:38
but he was religious or at least bought 2 from them.
41:42
And he begged me to put on tefillin.
41:43
And I was like, I had these to fill in from when I was bar
41:46
mitzvahed, but my synagogue didn't even teach us how to put
41:48
it on. I just had them.
41:50
My grandfather got me them. It was.
41:52
Like symbolic more. Well, I think my grandfather was
41:54
like, well, when you get bar mitzvah, you need to fill in.
41:56
So he he got me some tefillin, but my synagogue didn't even do
42:00
it. And then when I went on that
42:01
summer program is the first time that that USY and I didn't know
42:05
how to do it. I had to ask someone, but I did
42:07
it for the summer because everyone else is doing it.
42:09
And that was it. And it was so.
42:11
And this guy like begged me to put it on.
42:13
I was like, no, dude. Will you Lubavitch by any
42:17
chance? See, later on, I realized he
42:19
probably was influenced, but he was an American kid.
42:23
But my rabbis now take credit for for it because they're like,
42:27
of course he had to. Yeah.
42:29
But I didn't know that. I didn't know where the Babbage
42:31
was at the time. He begged me to put on to fill
42:33
in. And then we went on a trip up to
42:35
the northern border like a few weeks before I was going to go
42:38
get drafted. And he said, you know, we're
42:41
seeing soldiers go up the good fence up there near north, near
42:44
Mutula, north of Karachimona, which ended up where I was as a
42:47
soldier twice. But we see these guys going up
42:50
there and he's like, that was like the third time he begged
42:52
me, please just put on the phone and say to Shamon, take it off.
42:54
It'll take you 2 minutes. Please just do that for me.
42:56
I'll sleep better at night. His name is Daniel.
42:58
That's all I remember. So I was like, all right, dude,
43:00
I'll do it for you. So I started doing that.
43:04
And then I just do that like I did it like for years and years.
43:07
And that I think when I look back on it, I think that really
43:11
doing that, like eventually it just seeped in like.
43:16
Made you more connected. Yeah, like, and then and then
43:19
after a while I'm like, I, I'm still around.
43:21
Like I'm not going to stop it. If it ain't broke, I'm not going
43:23
to try and fix it. I'm going to keep doing it.
43:25
I just kept doing it. And it became like when I joined
43:27
the Marine Corps, I told the guys, they wake me up 10 minutes
43:29
early. I got to put on my to fill in
43:30
because you know during that first 10.
43:32
Weeks, that's so interesting. So you kept doing it throughout
43:35
the Marine Corps while not being observant of anything else.
43:38
I just. A little bit.
43:39
So I, I, I kind of wanted to move in the right direction.
43:43
So I came back and, and my wife is grew up conservative like me
43:48
and like, you know, we started kind of not mixing milk and meat
43:53
when we got married. I when I went to college that
43:56
I'm not eating anymore Traif I'm like this, you know, I, I kind
43:58
of wanted to move in the right direction.
44:00
So it was more than just film then it was.
44:02
Yeah, but I didn't. Slowly but surely, it was.
44:04
Yeah, but it really like and I, I don't know, I'm a, I'm a, a
44:09
sample group of 1. So I don't maybe just as I got
44:11
older, yeah, I I don't know, but but definitely I feel like I've
44:16
always been spiritual. I just didn't have a hook to
44:17
hang it on. I didn't know what it was.
44:19
Being spiritual was I was, I, I was spiritual.
44:22
I'd go skiing and I'd be like, man, you know, this is
44:25
incredible. I go sailing and on a beautiful
44:27
day, like I was definitely spiritual but just not in a much
44:30
in a Jewish way. You just, you weren't observant,
44:32
but you were spiritual, right? Which is so nice.
44:35
Time closer to God than we do. Because you're in the ear most
44:37
of the time. Yeah, you're already halfway
44:39
there. It's very true issue, probably a
44:41
good. Relationship with him then we.
44:42
Very good point, Very good point.
44:45
But then there was one point throughout your past, I guess,
44:47
years where you're like, OK, I'm going all in.
44:49
That's like, I guess, yeah. Obviously, like there's yeah,
44:52
salvations, but it's a cool. The journey it's it's.
44:55
It's been a great, it's been amazing.
44:57
And yeah, I told you before we went online, I've been keeping
45:00
keeping Shabbos for two years now and it's life changing it
45:03
really. Is were there any really from
45:05
very religious ultra orthodox people that you remember serving
45:08
with you? In the IDF.
45:09
In the not in the IDF, in the Marine, no.
45:12
I was the only Jew. In the you were the only Jew.
45:13
Yeah, when I was an instructor. Jews, but not religious Jews.
45:17
No, I was the only Jew that I knew of.
45:20
There was one that came through when I was an instructor.
45:22
I've been in about, let's say, 10 years.
45:24
Yeah, about 10 years. I'm a Marine that came through.
45:28
There's a Navy guy that came through that was one of my
45:30
students. Who's who's his?
45:32
His mom was Jewish, but yeah, there weren't many Jews.
45:35
Makes sense. Jewish people are not known for
45:38
their, you know, we're known for our fear of heights.
45:40
Like it's not something that we we love.
45:42
Like I was in the hospital the other day and I've seen like the
45:45
doctors come and get Jewish, the nurse Jewish, the pediatrician
45:48
Jew it there. And it's like, I'm like, I feel
45:51
like everybody in this hospital is Jewish over here.
45:53
And she's like, are you surprised like that there are
45:55
Jewish doctors out there like Jewish pilots.
45:58
You know, that's not something that's our, we're not athletes,
46:00
right? Like we don't like jumping, we
46:02
don't like flying. Like that's that's not a Jewish.
46:04
Israeli Air Force is pretty good, but yeah.
46:06
I'm curious how many pilots are out there even today not working
46:09
for at all that. Are just there are Jewish pilots
46:11
around? Yeah, I've flown.
46:12
I had one flight where all three of us were Oh, that's cool.
46:16
Jewish. Yeah.
46:18
Well, yeah, yeah, the third guy considered himself Jew.
46:21
But there's there in, in commercial aviation, there's
46:23
more, a lot more than them before, but yeah.
46:26
You said something earlier. I got to pick up on that and
46:28
then I'll, I'll, I'll pass it back to you or she I.
46:31
Cannot wait to start talking. About that I know, I know, I
46:33
know. I don't get you.
46:35
I know. Waiting.
46:36
I know. I have to go back to Shabbos.
46:38
I'm sorry. This is Michael's jam, by the
46:41
way. The idea is that he could be on
46:43
this. Shabbos is my jam too.
46:44
So I have to ask you. You imagine.
46:46
I I promise I'm going to it back.
46:47
We'll go to 911 all in, baby. But we actually had a a survivor
46:51
of 911 here. Say survivor, a first responder
46:54
of 911. This is that one.
46:55
Yeah, and it was a fascinating to hear that version of his
46:58
story. And, you know, we we lived it.
47:01
So we appreciate it a lot. And it's in our blood and we
47:04
want to hear. And it's like, yes, I agree with
47:05
us. I'm like, I'm waiting to get
47:07
there. But you did say Shabbos helped
47:09
change your life. And I got to jump on it real
47:11
quick. Explain to that for just one
47:13
minute, how is Shabbos? What has it done for you?
47:15
It's been like almost two years now.
47:17
I mean, I can't imagine not having it.
47:20
Like, you know, it's just, you know, that everyone says you
47:23
need to shut off and it's but the I think so we had it.
47:28
We bought a place. I was just driving to shul and
47:30
back for a lot of years. That's pretty much all I did on
47:32
Chavez. But when we bought the place
47:34
where we could walk to shul and shut down entirely, I remember
47:38
having like a six hour conversation with, with my wife.
47:41
Like, like we were on our second date.
47:44
Like, I don't remember, even though we went to go skiing
47:46
together and we'd be on the lift, you know, for 10 minutes,
47:50
we're having dinner together for two hours.
47:52
But I remember like it was probably this time of year for
47:54
two years ago when it's really, you know, sunsets early.
47:57
So dinner was over. I don't know, it's 7 or
48:00
whatever. And we talked till 2:00 in the
48:02
morning like, and I was like, what just happened?
48:05
You know, it's just, there's things like that that, you know,
48:08
of course you're shutting down. And I, I can't wait to turn my
48:11
phone on, especially in the last couple years, see what happened
48:13
in the world, you know, or, or see what I'm doing for work the
48:17
next day. I can't imagine not having that,
48:19
especially in the world, just accelerating into this complete
48:22
connectivity. I was, I was asking Lily, you
48:25
know, do you know, do you know the idea of being good at
48:27
directions, you know, on the way here?
48:31
She's, she's never heard about it.
48:32
Like I was always good at directions.
48:34
I have a spatial mind. Like, you know, I can look at a
48:36
map and know where I'm going. And, and now, like her
48:40
generation just plugs it in her phone.
48:42
Like it's just constant, constantly connected in ways
48:47
that just didn't exist when I was Lily's age.
48:50
And it like, and it's just like a lifeline and I can appreciate
48:53
it. I don't think, you know, if you
48:54
grow up like Lily does, I don't think she can they can
48:56
appreciate it as much. But I, because I lived before,
49:00
you know, the Internet was in your hand and, you know, yeah,
49:06
just when we, we go on a car trip and be bored for hours, you
49:10
know, and there's some value in that, which is just not being
49:14
distracted by anything else. I mean to focus on your wife.
49:17
I just told someone, I just told my neighbor over Shabbos, I have
49:22
something called the road trip theory.
49:24
And that is like a lot of times for Shadduch him like, you know,
49:27
people like you know, they recommend boys to girls or girls
49:30
to boys and based on a picture or based on a one hour meeting.
49:34
Nah, she's not for me or he's not for me.
49:36
And I say, you know, it's interesting.
49:38
If people spend a little more time with one another, they
49:40
might actually get to know each other.
49:42
And they might actually. And it was a whole debate.
49:44
Can you build an attraction to someone?
49:46
And I was saying yes, and someone else was saying no.
49:48
And we were arguing about it. And I was saying my road trip
49:52
theory, which is I guess based on the Shabbos theory, you're
49:55
talking to your relationship, you're talking to your partner
49:58
for what you did when you were dating.
50:00
And it's just awesome. I love hearing that.
50:02
It's amazing. There's so many ways.
50:04
I mean, in the community, we have an incredible community.
50:06
Just to be able to, you know, sit at the kiddos and there's
50:09
nowhere to go, you know, just be with people.
50:11
There's no everyone's on a clock.
50:12
Love kiddos. Yeah, everyone's on a clock, you
50:14
know, It was doing the next thing.
50:16
What's next? You know, I got to get home for
50:18
to make dinner or whatever it is.
50:19
You know, you're just sitting there like nothing to do, just
50:22
be with your peeps. And it's it's just.
50:24
Be in the moment, be present. If it wasn't for Shabbos, let's
50:27
face it, we wouldn't turn it off.
50:29
We'd be in the office on Saturday.
50:30
We'd be right back at it, and we would ignore all those
50:34
meaningful things that actually matter.
50:37
And this kind of forces that. And I think that's what you're
50:39
saying, that Shabbos really just forces you to reconnect and to
50:44
just be really about what's around you and what really
50:48
matters, right? And what really matters.
50:49
It's a beautiful thing, it really is that anybody can
50:51
practice this. It's not exclusive to just
50:54
Judaism. It's just a great concept.
50:55
But I think Judaism put a nice package around it. 100%.
50:58
We made it into like a you know it.
51:00
It the kiddos you like the kiddos the.
51:03
Meals. No, the Shabbos meals.
51:04
No, it is. It is.
51:05
It is. You Add all these elements to it
51:07
and we found the way to make it fun, right?
51:09
We found the way to make it in a in a very entertaining.
51:12
So it's you like kiddos. Come by us.
51:15
Yeah, the community that you are, that there's a habad there.
51:19
That's oh, there's a habad there.
51:20
Yeah, that's beautiful. OK.
51:22
Later on I learn about Lubavitch Later on.
51:24
It was in Marine Corps actually. Yeah.
51:25
All right, back to landing planes on ships.
51:28
September 11th with that rubber band.
51:30
September 11th happens. Whoa, whoa, whoa.
51:32
You're jumping to September 11th.
51:33
He has 20 years, 20 years. You're jumping over 20.
51:36
What, 20? It was five years.
51:37
Five years. OK, You're right.
51:38
Five years. Don't do five years, OK.
51:40
You want to do the training or the process?
51:42
OK, For four or five different. Yeah, right.
51:44
No combat, no machines, a lot of just training.
51:48
Training but. Like I was saying, the training
51:50
get gets you ready. Yeah, I was.
51:52
Because you're always pushing yourself further and further.
51:55
And the one big thing is landing on a ship the the the TA-4
51:58
Skyhawk, which is an A4 Skyhawk with two seats.
52:02
The only computer chip in it was in my Casio watch.
52:05
The plane was made in 1954. You literally started it.
52:10
You have to start it with an external huffer, start an
52:13
external jet engine that pulled up next side and they plugged it
52:15
in and that would get the motor going.
52:17
And once the motor was spooled up, you could give it gas and
52:20
light it off. The way you lit it off was
52:21
banging on the throttle like your gas grill, Your gas grill,
52:24
you would hold, you hold it and goes click, click, click, click,
52:26
click. Well, you have to go click,
52:27
click, click. You know every time you bang on
52:29
the throttle it would ignite it. And this is the training, this
52:31
is. That's the that's the jet that
52:33
was fun in Vietnam, 50s. It was designed in 50s, but in
52:35
the 60s. How are you training with
52:37
throwing bombs down? I'm curious how.
52:38
Was like, we call it iron sights but there's no computers
52:42
involved right? I literally dropped bombs the
52:43
old fashioned way. Yeah, with your eye, with your
52:45
eyesight. Yeah, you're controlling, you're
52:47
controlling for the different factors, which is the angle, the
52:50
speed. You know this, if you're of a
52:53
shallow angle, the bomb can land long is a big problem.
52:58
More of a that's a problem to solve longitudinally, right?
53:02
If you go directly down, it's you know it's going to where
53:05
you're pointed because gravity's not playing on it.
53:08
The less your vertical, the more horizontal than your speed.
53:12
If you're going faster, the bomb's going to travel further.
53:14
If you're going too slow, it's going to.
53:16
So to hit a target when you're having it and of course
53:18
laterally at the lineup of the target too, to hit a target took
53:22
some training and there were no simulators.
53:24
And it I did it in the plane for the first time, I dropped the
53:26
bomb. It was, it was a 25 LB practice
53:29
bomb with a little charge on it. So you could see where it landed
53:33
in the desert. But you know, it was all just
53:36
done, you know, manual manually. And so, and the same thing with
53:40
dog fighting, the same thing with landing on the ship.
53:42
So you know, it's, it's great training.
53:45
And then of course, when I was given a Hornet which had the
53:49
computers in it and it was fly by wire and then I could, I
53:51
mean, I think my, one of my first, you know, the average for
53:54
my first bombing mission, a Hornet was like 11 feet.
53:58
Whereas in the in the in the in the Skyhawk, if you could have
54:00
an average of 75 feet, you throw out your worst bomb and your
54:03
best bomb and the average the other remaining bombs is you can
54:06
have an average of 75 feet less than 75 feet you were.
54:11
And how did you score target wise like you know is there?
54:13
A You see, there's rings in the desert.
54:15
Yeah. So how like at a certain point
54:17
you're like, I got this, like I'm, I'm landing and it's going
54:19
on the target like over and over.
54:21
Do you get a score once that then come back?
54:22
From the mission and you have your score yeah and then there's
54:25
you know the comms the the communications and.
54:27
And how the flowed and and if you did the pattern, you're.
54:30
Doing How were you doing? How was your?
54:31
How were you scoring through? Everything.
54:33
Yeah. Well, I I really want to get a
54:34
bomb E, which is an average of better than 75.
54:36
OK. And because I was a Marine.
54:39
E is a good thing. E Excellence.
54:41
A Bombing. Excellence.
54:42
Oh, I see. If you had a flight and I, I
54:44
didn't get it, I didn't make it my first flight in a Hornet.
54:48
I got it, you know, because, but because I trained in this
54:52
primitive jet, it's like, you know, just made it easy.
54:55
Yeah, not the computer, really not the computer.
54:57
But I have to mention is that I, I wanted to learn how to be a
55:00
DJ. And, you know, I went out to
55:04
Best Buy and I bought an electric board.
55:05
It was the newest one. I felt like, wow, this is so
55:08
cool. I'm gonna go to YouTube.
55:09
And I went to get a lesson by this guy, DJ Gold.
55:11
Shout out to you, bro. You're awesome.
55:13
And he looks at me and goes, do you really want to learn?
55:15
I said, yeah, I really want to learn.
55:17
He took out two CD's and like, you know, he put it in there and
55:21
I think he had an 8 track and he took an old, old machine and he
55:24
said use it with your ear. Learn how to just, you know,
55:27
jump from one song to the next one.
55:28
You master the eight track, you go to the CD, you master the CD,
55:31
you go to the USB, then you can go to automatic.
55:34
And I'm just remembering and I'm thinking how amazing it is.
55:36
Also, another lesson in life, when you're learning something,
55:38
you know you're going to go straight for the kill and you're
55:41
not going to have the tools to know what happens if something
55:43
goes wrong or 100%. Yeah.
55:45
And it's, yeah, if you have the discipline to get a bomb that's
55:48
close to 75 feet to the target with a primitive A4, then when
55:52
you get in the Hornet, it's easy.
55:53
Right. So you got on the Hornet and
55:55
suddenly you're EE Plus plus you're doing great.
55:57
It's all it's and yeah, so I in the landing on the ship in the
56:01
in the primitive jet, it's steam gauges.
56:03
It's it's, you really have a seat of the pants you really
56:06
dialed in. And then when you have a jet,
56:08
like with a Hornet, where you have a velocity vector which
56:10
solves for where The Jets going to be, where The Jets going to
56:13
be down range. It's an incredible amount of
56:17
information, But, and it makes it easier.
56:19
It like it like I like the analogy with being good at
56:22
directions and now everyone's good at directions.
56:23
They don't know the kids don't know the concept of it because
56:26
everyone has an iPhone. So if if you're good at
56:28
directions and you have an iPhone.
56:31
It's a nice combination. Love it.
56:32
So you're landing properly. You're doing the bomb things.
56:35
I'm sorry. I have to go back.
56:36
You said a dog fight. Dog fight?
56:37
Yeah. How do you combat?
56:38
How do you? Train for a dog fight?
56:40
Is it literally playing chicken? Yeah, yeah, NAV in the Marine
56:42
Corps, we do it before we get our wings.
56:44
We do it. It's a when I was done training,
56:47
I finished instructing like 11 years ago.
56:49
It was a 14 flight syllabus where you do, you start off
56:52
being defensive one against one bandit and then you you go to
56:55
being offensive against the bandit.
56:58
You know, you start offensive and then you go to being
57:00
defensive where the bandit starts behind you.
57:01
Then you do neutral one versus 1 and then you do 2 versus 1.
57:05
So that let's let's say I'm the bandit, the two of you would be
57:07
working as a team to kill me one V1.
57:11
It's just, you know, that's that's a syllabus is 14 flights
57:15
and it's just basic. But if you can do that in the
57:17
basic trainer jet, then when you're given the fighter jet,
57:20
which has a lot better performance, you have the
57:23
concepts down and you have a big advantage.
57:26
But yeah, that's that's the. Very cool stuff.
57:28
And you're ready for all these three things.
57:30
And then comes 911 and you're watching and Ushi take over
57:34
here. We go, here we go.
57:36
So 911 happened, right? Where are.
57:38
You Where are you when 911 happened that morning, right?
57:41
So I was in South Carolina. So I'd been an operational F18
57:45
pilot for about a year with a Marine fighter Tax Squadron 251.
57:50
We were single seat boat squadron.
57:52
So we were assigned to a ship and we were scheduled to go out
57:55
the very end of September that year.
57:57
We were the ready carrier. We've been through our air wing
57:59
work UPS. We were in CAG one, Air Group 1,
58:03
carrier, Air Group 1 and we were like kind of the ready carrier.
58:07
So the carrier that's at sea can't come home until the next
58:11
carrier high fives it. It's a constant like cops on a
58:14
beat. There's carriers out there on
58:15
patrol. So we were the ready carrier and
58:19
I knew I was going to deploying. Lily wasn't born.
58:22
My son was 14 months old. And I remember we had a bare
58:28
patch in the backyard and my wife's like got to lay the side
58:32
before you go. So I was, we had a half a pile
58:34
of sod that someone dropped off and I was laying the side and my
58:37
neighbor came out and we called Michigan Mike and he said a
58:43
plane just hit the, the Trade Center, you need to go in.
58:46
And I'm, it was beautiful in South Carolina, but I don't know
58:48
what the weather was here. I assume there was cloudy and a
58:51
Cessna hit the Trade Center. And I, I laid aside for a few
58:55
more minutes and he came back out and said, Josh, you need to
58:57
go in and watch TV. So I went in and the reason why
59:01
I was laying aside that morning is because we were landing on
59:03
the ship at night and we're training to to land on the ship
59:05
at night and it was a 10 hour coup day.
59:08
You can't be at work any longer than 10 hours when you're
59:10
landing on at night. So we weren't supposed to come
59:12
to work till two that day. So that morning I was working in
59:14
the yard and went in to watch the TV as a second plane hit.
59:18
I saw the big impact. I'm watching the fire.
59:21
And when the second plane hit, I flew, I threw on a flight suit
59:25
and went to the squadron because at the MO at that moment, the
59:27
report, the news was saying we don't know how many of these
59:29
planes are out there. And then I don't think, I don't
59:31
think the Pentagon had been had been hit yet.
59:34
I don't think 93 had crashed yet.
59:36
So we went thinking we're going to have to shoot down some
59:38
airliners and no one in my squadron there, 18 of us in my
59:41
squadron, no one had a cell phone.
59:43
This is a 2001. We were, you know, Marine Corps
59:46
officers. We weren't paid that much.
59:48
We didn't have cell phones. So we just went to the squadron,
59:51
all of us, like even though we weren't supposed to go till two
59:53
that the night operations are over, you know, we all kind of
59:56
independently, we didn't call anybody.
59:58
We just went to the squadron. And then after about an hour, we
1:00:02
were told, you know, the reporting reports were all the
1:00:04
planes were on the ground. And then, you know, basically we
1:00:08
all kind of stood down. There's nothing we can do.
1:00:11
But they pulled up the, the deployment a few weeks and we
1:00:14
left September. The ship pulled out on the 18th,
1:00:16
literally a week after, which I think was Rosh Hashanah that
1:00:19
day, a week after 911. And I remember we flew out on
1:00:25
the 19th because the ship pulls out of port out of Norfolk, and
1:00:29
then we fly out the next day and land on the ship.
1:00:31
And then we didn't know we were going, but I think Bush had
1:00:35
given the axis of evil speech at that point.
1:00:37
So we had an idea, but we didn't know.
1:00:40
And I remember that Rosh Hashanah, you know, who buys
1:00:44
sword, who by fire, who by water was like, I knew I was the next
1:00:48
day. I was going out to do something,
1:00:50
I didn't know what. And our routine deployment, the
1:00:52
women, the squadron wives were planning to meet us halfway
1:00:55
through the cruise in Italy, you know, his Med cruise.
1:00:58
So like we had this really rough plans that halfway through the
1:01:01
women would come to Italy and the ship would pull in and we'd
1:01:04
break the, it's supposed to be a six month deployment and break
1:01:06
it up in half. But I'm not 11.
1:01:08
That all changed. And we, we, we went, we flew off
1:01:14
on the 19th. And like I said, we didn't know
1:01:16
where we're going. We, we went across the Atlantic,
1:01:19
went through Gibraltar. We hung out off Syria for a few
1:01:21
days doing planning some raids into Syria because Syria was in
1:01:25
the axis of evil and we kind of wanted to and let them know
1:01:28
we're keep an eye on them. But then, you know, we snuck
1:01:33
through the Suez Canal. The carrier battle group snuck
1:01:35
through the Suez Canal carriers, not just the carriers, the
1:01:37
destroyers and the submarine or two and you know, other ships,
1:01:42
cruiser I think. So we all kind of snuck through.
1:01:46
I think we hit the canal 11 O clock at night or something and
1:01:49
and by sunrise we were in the wide open Red Sea.
1:01:54
And then we certified missions that next night before we
1:01:56
rounded Yemen. What kind of fighter jet is?
1:01:59
This F18. Is this the most advanced?
1:02:01
At the time, yeah. At the time it was the F18
1:02:04
Charlie. The sea model was the most
1:02:06
advanced on the ship. And how many F eighteens are?
1:02:09
So there's that part of the world.
1:02:11
Well, on my carrier, there were three carriers to start off
1:02:14
with, the two that were out of patrol and then we came out and
1:02:16
the one we were leaving stayed out for an extra month.
1:02:19
So we had three at the time. At what point did you know where
1:02:22
you were going and what you were doing like?
1:02:24
I think when we when we hit the canal, the Suez Canal, we knew
1:02:28
we were going to Afghanistan. But somebody on the ship already
1:02:30
planning that. Someone on the ship knew though.
1:02:32
Or no one, yeah. Probably a couple days before,
1:02:34
right? Like I said, we were planning
1:02:35
strikes into Syria. Who knows if that's a Feign or
1:02:39
if that was actual an option, but I don't know when the actual
1:02:42
decision was made to. But you knew you were heading in
1:02:45
this area like just. And how many ships?
1:02:47
You said 3? And there were three for the
1:02:50
first couple weeks and then it was 2.
1:02:52
There's Vincent. My, my brother was actually on
1:02:53
the Vincent. He was an Intel officer on the
1:02:55
Vincent, which is kind of it was wacky.
1:02:57
I hadn't seen him in a year and a half.
1:02:58
And he was 100 miles away from me on another ship.
1:03:01
We end up spending Thanksgiving that year together.
1:03:03
He came over on a helicopter where we spent Thanksgiving
1:03:05
together. But to.
1:03:06
Celebrate Wow. It was, It was not.
1:03:09
Yeah, 20 this year will be 24 years, I guess.
1:03:12
So you're hanging out out there? Yeah, so we were in a box at 100
1:03:16
miles off Karachi, Pakistan and flying missions into
1:03:20
Afghanistan. You know, for almost 6 months I
1:03:23
didn't get off the ship other than to go flying.
1:03:25
So I didn't touch touch land for six months.
1:03:28
We put in the Bahrain in early February, I think.
1:03:31
The first mission you went on, Let's go to that for a second.
1:03:34
So take me into your headspace, if you don't mind.
1:03:36
You're on the ship. You're.
1:03:37
What do you guys do on the ship? You play chess.
1:03:39
You. No.
1:03:40
We. Flew.
1:03:40
We flew day and night. Really the way over there.
1:03:43
We flew day and night. That was the first year that I
1:03:46
remember, other than the IDF of like, I had a bagel on Yom
1:03:50
Kippur. I didn't put anything on it.
1:03:51
I just had a bagel 'cause I I wanted to fly.
1:03:54
I felt like my life depended on being as sharp as I could be.
1:03:57
It's like getting ready for the big game.
1:03:58
I knew I was going to war. I wanted to be as sharp as I
1:04:02
could be and I wanted a little bit of blood sugar when I was
1:04:05
trying to land on a ship that night.
1:04:07
So that's. Your non rabbi I can tell you
1:04:08
that what you did was OK. OK, good.
1:04:10
I didn't have a rabbi. You needed any validation from
1:04:12
somebody. Thank you.
1:04:13
You did the right thing. So.
1:04:15
Actually, look at that's the jet he was flying right there.
1:04:18
It's much easier to have this conversation and put us there
1:04:20
while we're looking at these, at the pictures of The Jets we're.
1:04:23
Really appreciating what we're talking about that.
1:04:25
How fast does it go? What's the speed on it?
1:04:27
A. Little bit faster than the speed
1:04:28
of sound. Wow.
1:04:29
Yeah, with 1000 miles an hour. Yeah, about that.
1:04:32
Depends on your altitude, but yeah.
1:04:33
So again, so you know you're on your way and you're, you know,
1:04:36
you're passing by the Swiss canal, you're doing your thing,
1:04:39
you're not sure yet what your mission is, right?
1:04:41
And you're going and you said every day and night you'd be
1:04:43
flying though during. The night you generally fly day
1:04:44
and night. So just while the ship is going,
1:04:47
you're keeping great, you're keeping it just for practice,
1:04:50
just for practice. So you're constantly flowing
1:04:52
with the ship. So as the ship is moving
1:04:54
forward, you're taking the plane going out the.
1:04:56
Ship will turn into the wind operate.
1:04:58
Yep. And when we're done operating,
1:05:00
it'll move down range, move somewhere else, but it it needs
1:05:03
to be oriented to the wind to take off and land.
1:05:05
Got it. So you're constantly in like
1:05:07
combat ready zone. Oh, that's, that's, that's
1:05:10
that's. Taken from a tanker, you can see
1:05:11
the 2 the refueling probe starting to come out there and
1:05:14
the nose on the right. How many bombs are are on your
1:05:17
plane attached to? Jen, we flew with either one big
1:05:22
bomb, a 2000 pounder or sometimes 222000 pounders, but
1:05:26
generally like 3500 pounders became the loadout.
1:05:30
OK, in the beginning we knew what we're going to go up.
1:05:32
Like my first mission I blew up a Taliban barracks.
1:05:34
That was one 2000 LB bomb with a with Agps.
1:05:38
I'm sorry we got to take that step.
1:05:39
That's. What I did this is operating.
1:05:42
He's about to take off right there.
1:05:44
Amazing So so we'll we'll watch that another time, but for now,
1:05:47
I I want to feel the the reality of what it was with you in it.
1:05:51
So you're going every day, you're practicing, you're
1:05:53
keeping your you know, you're keeping yourself at the edge of
1:05:56
your seat, you're sharp, you're going to sleep every night.
1:05:59
I imagine your heart is pounding a little bit throughout the days
1:06:02
or you're calm as a cucumber. Like what's your.
1:06:04
No, I mean, you know, what's crazy about the ship is there's
1:06:08
not that many of us on this. There's like 5500 people on the
1:06:10
ship, but there's not that many fighter pilots, OK?
1:06:12
There's three squadrons OF83-F18 squadrons and there's 8, about
1:06:16
18 in each squadron, 18 pilots. And then there's 1F-14 squadron,
1:06:20
which I think had 15 pilots. So there's not that many of us.
1:06:24
The whole ship, the refueling planes, the radar planes, the
1:06:27
helicopters to pull us out of the water if we bail out,
1:06:30
they're all there to support the, the, the onboard delivery
1:06:33
plane. They're all there to to support
1:06:36
us. The whole reason that the whole
1:06:37
carrier exists is that we can go do our mission.
1:06:40
Or if I can get this correct, over 5000 people to support the
1:06:45
three fighter jets that are going out. 3 squadrons, 3
1:06:48
squadrons, 60 or 7. How many jets?
1:06:51
12 in each squadron. That's 36 F eighteens plus I
1:06:55
think. I think they had 10 FF.
1:06:56
It's just the that magnitude of of what amount of.
1:06:59
Support it needs. Amount of support that it needs,
1:07:01
which obviously makes sense. That's a lot, though.
1:07:02
I mean, most countries in the world don't have an Air Force.
1:07:05
Yeah, that has what a carrier has.
1:07:07
Wow. In terms.
1:07:08
What a comment. And and, and and the, and the
1:07:10
capability naval evaders. I had a cousin who married an
1:07:14
F15, Israeli F15 guy and he said, I always respect you
1:07:18
because you land on ships. It's a whole different ball.
1:07:20
It's a whole different ball game.
1:07:21
We had like a fraternity of the, of the, of the pilots on the
1:07:24
ship when, when there's night operations, they they have a
1:07:26
midrats, a midnight meal and it doesn't start until the last guy
1:07:30
lands. And when the last guy lands at
1:07:32
night, there's like a collective exhale.
1:07:35
Wow. It's risky.
1:07:36
And if you get the most experienced person can have a
1:07:39
mishap, right? It's such a tiny runway on this.
1:07:42
Yeah, and a margin. Let's go back to my documentary
1:07:46
that I'm painting here. So you're, you know, you're
1:07:48
going around every day, you're practicing.
1:07:49
This is a few days already happening as you're getting
1:07:51
closer and closer to a mission that you don't even know when
1:07:53
it's going to come, right? When is the first time you hear
1:07:56
about that mission? So the first, so we're dropping
1:07:58
this weapon, which is a new weapon at the time, which is AJ
1:08:00
Dam. And most time like you,
1:08:02
especially with the with the FA team, we could simulate
1:08:05
something and doing a simulator and then you do it for real for
1:08:07
training. And then but the JM was a new
1:08:09
weapon at the time, the joint defence attack munition, which
1:08:12
is AGPS guided weapon. And we had one laptop computer
1:08:16
that was seek a secret laptop that had the software to drive
1:08:19
this thing and we'd never done it.
1:08:21
We'd never done it, never dropped it.
1:08:24
This gets back to the training like so we had eighteen of us
1:08:27
around 1 laptop trying to figure out how to do it.
1:08:29
And at the time my plane didn't have a Jeep, They had Jeep for
1:08:34
some reason. It took like 10 minutes for the
1:08:35
GPS to align on the ship because you had to tell where it was in
1:08:38
the world off off the so you have to align the insurance, the
1:08:42
inertial navigation. So it took like 10 minutes on
1:08:44
the deck of the carrier to get the jet to know where it was.
1:08:46
It's not like your iPhone, which always knows where it is right
1:08:48
now. And then once the jet knew where
1:08:50
it was, you'd have to figure out there's a special cable to
1:08:53
connect to the, to the bomb. This is bringing back 25 years,
1:08:57
but a special cable that you'd have to tell the bomb where it
1:09:00
was and then make sure everything was working.
1:09:02
And this is, you're going to destroy things and kill people
1:09:05
with this thing. So it needs to work, right.
1:09:07
So there was a lot of stress, like when we found out what our
1:09:10
first mission was and what our loadout was and that we're
1:09:13
dropping these, these weapons that we, we went up on the deck
1:09:16
that day to, to take a physical look at the bomb, to see it for
1:09:19
the first time and to see the cable for the first time.
1:09:22
And it was a few hours before we were doing it for real.
1:09:25
And we didn't want, I didn't want to mess it up.
1:09:27
You know, no one wants to mess it up, but you want to do the
1:09:30
mission. So we, you know, we're literally
1:09:33
18 of us huddled around this one laptop going through it.
1:09:36
I'll go back, you know, I missed it.
1:09:37
Go back page trying to figure out how to do this.
1:09:40
And then and we went and did it and everything went well.
1:09:44
And it was like, because like, it gets back to the years and
1:09:47
years of training where you just never comfortable, always trying
1:09:50
to figure it out, leaning on each other, you know, you knew
1:09:54
one guy was a little bit more geeky than hey, dude, tell me
1:09:57
what I need to know. You know, like that.
1:10:00
It's just all you're trained for that.
1:10:01
Love it. You're hovered over the laptop,
1:10:03
18 of you. You go look at the missile
1:10:05
itself. You get familiar with it.
1:10:06
You touch it right. You feel it.
1:10:07
And then you hear that what the mission is, They get you all
1:10:10
together. Taliban barracks in a place
1:10:12
called Harat, which is in the southwest of.
1:10:15
Which you never heard of before in your life.
1:10:17
You're there for the first time. You never even practice going in
1:10:20
this area that you're going to. You're just using guiding the
1:10:22
big. Thing was the area of fueling we
1:10:24
need to fuel lots of times. Interesting.
1:10:27
At night, you know. Yeah, but before the 1st mission
1:10:30
happened, they're telling you, OK, this is the barracks that
1:10:32
you're going to and we have Intel to tell us that this is a
1:10:36
targeted area that you need. They don't tell you what came.
1:10:38
Through I had a Taliban base and I had a barracks building which
1:10:41
was three stories tall and we had this primitive, like really
1:10:45
primitive software to weapon here.
1:10:47
So I fused that bomb to go off on the ground floor because a
1:10:51
contact fuse might go off on the roof and then you're just going
1:10:53
to blow the top off the building.
1:10:54
But I want to destroy the whole building so.
1:10:56
What? How do you fuse the bomb?
1:10:57
So we we like estimated what that was made out of like.
1:11:01
What the what the structure is like?
1:11:02
Probably. You know bad.
1:11:04
You know, low, low quality concrete.
1:11:07
This many floors, I forget the data we put in there, but it was
1:11:10
a primitive system to weapon here.
1:11:12
And then it told you the fusing time.
1:11:13
So when when the bomb impacted the roof, how many milliseconds
1:11:16
later before it went off? And in the end, you go to the
1:11:20
software, but it's like, yeah, you know what?
1:11:22
I'm doing this. I think this makes sense.
1:11:24
And that worked out. Yeah.
1:11:25
My brother was an imagery officer on the Vinson.
1:11:28
So then I on the secret Internet, I emailed him and said
1:11:30
I had my first mission. Here's the Dimpy, which is the
1:11:32
target number. And so he sent a satellite
1:11:35
picture the next day on the secret thing.
1:11:37
And what? Because I, I got a picture of
1:11:39
the building before I went. But the next day, you know, he
1:11:42
sent me a, an after, you know. You get to see if the
1:11:45
calculation was good and worked out.
1:11:47
It was a building, yeah. It was like 1 corner that you
1:11:50
can kind of make out was a corner, but the rest of it was
1:11:52
just. So you're told, you're told
1:11:53
there's a mission, you're all get together and it's at night.
1:11:56
Everyone had different missions, some did bridges like I was in a
1:11:58
four ship that was going against his base.
1:12:00
And you all went at once. Yeah, the four of us and we came
1:12:02
through on one pass and I couldn't believe it.
1:12:05
The GPS that at that almost that moment, I was like, I'm not a
1:12:09
fighter pod, I'm an aircraft carrier because that that bombs
1:12:11
an aircraft. It flew itself into the target.
1:12:13
So it was really AI had never trained on it ever.
1:12:17
And we're doing it for real. The first time I did a real
1:12:18
mission was in this weapon I'd never used before.
1:12:21
And it was really like a turning a page in in air to ground
1:12:24
combat. It sounds like you literally
1:12:27
dropped the first bomb. Well, so to speak, you know, or
1:12:30
your your. Group.
1:12:31
I think maybe that might be the yeah, the first time AGPS weapon
1:12:34
was used in combat. I don't know.
1:12:36
Or just like the war against 9/11?
1:12:38
That wasn't like I got my air medal for suppose back in the
1:12:41
time, back in those days, UAVs were a new thing and they
1:12:43
weren't weaponized. They only were, you know,
1:12:46
surveillance. So the the Predator or whatever
1:12:48
other drones were out there would watch stuff, but we'd have
1:12:51
to go blow it up. So my air medal was for the
1:12:54
first time, supposedly, I don't know if so, the air medal says
1:12:57
the first time that a Predator unmanned aerial vehicle, which
1:13:02
is a Predator at the time, gave me a talk on to blow up Al Qaeda
1:13:05
leadership. So who knows if it was actually
1:13:08
the first time, but it's it's the way it was like and, and it
1:13:11
nothing was like I said, the training, even though this might
1:13:13
be new stuff, the training was just we're ready for it.
1:13:17
The first night you come back, you're you just did a mission.
1:13:19
The four of you went and you just you completed it.
1:13:22
You fly back. What what's the what's the
1:13:24
energy like? Is everyone clapping their hands
1:13:25
when you're coming down? Are you talking to your?
1:13:27
Fellow, I need to get to sleep because I need to do again
1:13:29
tomorrow because you come back for a night trap on the ship.
1:13:32
So everyone's just in serious mode.
1:13:34
Yeah, I think we took off at midnight.
1:13:35
We're probably back at 5:00 in the morning and you know, you're
1:13:41
wound up and then the sun rises. You kind of wanted the sun to be
1:13:44
rising. So it wasn't a night trap, but
1:13:47
if, if the sun was rising, then your body was more awake and
1:13:50
it'd be hard to get sleep for the next night.
1:13:52
And that's just the cycle. You just, it was, it was a
1:13:55
battle to to get sleep, to to get rest.
1:13:59
What's your trick to falling asleep?
1:14:01
I couldn't there were nights I couldn't.
1:14:02
There were days I remember my I lived in a two man with with
1:14:07
another guy, a guy from Arkansas.
1:14:09
I grew up in a farm in, in Arkansas and he's like a brother
1:14:13
to me. And he ran, he wrote the
1:14:15
schedule, who's doing what mission and I, I remember having
1:14:18
to get up for a flight. He knew who, what pilots were
1:14:21
available in the squadron and who, what everyone had been
1:14:23
doing because he wrote the schedule.
1:14:24
I remember getting up and and the ship changed its whole
1:14:27
routine. 6:00 PM was 6:00 AM. Breakfast was served at 6:00 PM.
1:14:30
Again, the whole ship oriented itself so that we can operate
1:14:33
in, in an effort to try and shift us to the night page.
1:14:37
We called the night page because we were the night carrier for
1:14:39
the first two months and like it, it didn't really work.
1:14:42
Like so one, one night I got up, it was 1 morning one night I got
1:14:47
up to go flying and I hadn't slept.
1:14:49
And I'm like, how do I do this? I got to refuel 678 times.
1:14:51
Maybe I got to drop bombs. I got to not kill myself when I
1:14:54
come back to land. And I remember telling my buddy
1:14:57
like, dude, I how he's like, dude, there's no one else.
1:14:59
You got to go. And my wife sent me a bunch of
1:15:00
candy bars and Thanksgiving and Thanksgiving.
1:15:03
So I'd stuff my my G suit pocket full of candy bar and the little
1:15:06
trick or treat candy bars and I take 6 or 8 of them and try and
1:15:10
get a sugar high. If I was getting a low we could
1:15:11
pump up our G suit to kind of blood flowing.
1:15:15
Jesus, the badge of attrition over here, It's really, it's
1:15:18
like the NASCAR erasers, you know, they have to be in shape.
1:15:21
They have to be totally fit. They have to be mentally aware.
1:15:25
Like it's, it's, it's not just fighting, you know, flying the
1:15:28
plane. No, there's a lot of ancillary
1:15:30
things going on that you got to be managing to be at your best
1:15:33
self. 100%. I'm curious, how much money are
1:15:37
you earning right now from the military?
1:15:39
What are you getting paid? I stayed in for 20 years so I
1:15:41
have a pension. No, no, no at that.
1:15:43
Moment. You're fighting a you're flying
1:15:46
a fighter jet, dropping bombs in Afghanistan, basically managing
1:15:49
America's war. Right now you're not paid that
1:15:51
much and it's, I think at that time, I don't know, 70 grand a
1:15:56
year in 2001, maybe 60 grand. We get flight pay, which is a
1:15:59
little bit more. You're making like a public
1:16:02
school salary. Public school teacher, It was,
1:16:04
it was better public school, yeah, a little bit better.
1:16:06
I would think that back in those days like.
1:16:08
I know back then, right? It's it's a decent salary.
1:16:11
A decent salary, right? Everyone gets paid the same
1:16:14
right? The the competition is like who
1:16:18
you are as a pilot, as a person, as a dude, like.
1:16:22
It's bragging, right? It's more like.
1:16:24
Yeah. No one really brags.
1:16:26
No one brags. Yeah, everyone kind of knows,
1:16:28
you know, like when, when this when the sun's setting on the
1:16:33
carrier and like the sun's getting low and we're doing
1:16:35
night OPS. You can tell if someone's
1:16:37
scared, if they've lost their edge.
1:16:40
You can tell. And you don't talk about it.
1:16:42
You just know someone had a really bad night last night.
1:16:44
You know, how's he going to do tonight?
1:16:46
There's a camera watching every landing, you know, and, you
1:16:48
know, you know, someone's having a, you know, maybe not doing so
1:16:52
great. He's coming in the land.
1:16:53
And, you know, you knew how he landed the night, that night
1:16:56
before, and it was a bad, really bad landing.
1:16:58
And, and I hope you come on, dude, you got this, you know,
1:17:01
like you just, everyone kind of knows, not just your squad or
1:17:04
not just the 18 of you, but the other Navy guys, we all got to
1:17:06
know each other. We, we do missions to two
1:17:09
Marines and two Navy like, like we were one big team.
1:17:12
And you don't, you don't like no one brags, no one talks about
1:17:14
it, but it's constant. Like you're constantly thinking,
1:17:17
oh man, I owned him yesterday in a dogfight.
1:17:19
That's crazy. Push yourself.
1:17:20
Keep pushing yourself. Push yourself, Yeah, you know.
1:17:22
Having the support of others? Yeah.
1:17:24
Any rituals that you had? Did you listen to certain music
1:17:26
when you woke up? My my wife sent me an album for
1:17:29
a band we liked and it was. What do you listen to?
1:17:32
There's a. Band called Better Than Ezra.
1:17:34
Oh, I know Better Than Ezra. I remember them.
1:17:36
My, my really good buddy, he's from Arkansas.
1:17:38
The guy from Arkansas, he had a whole sleeve of CDs and I think
1:17:41
all but one of them were Johnny Cash.
1:17:43
So whenever I hear Johnny Cash, I think back to to that.
1:17:46
How many? So how?
1:17:47
How long? How many missions?
1:17:48
How long did it take this? Process I did 42 missions in
1:17:51
Afghanistan. How long of a period?
1:17:54
About over four or five months. Four or five months, Any
1:17:57
mishaps, Any. It's almost.
1:17:59
So it's acceptable to lose aircraft when you're operating
1:18:03
on a ship? Yeah, less and less so over the
1:18:06
years, but. You're saying you didn't have
1:18:07
you didn't have one. What a blessing, though.
1:18:09
I was like all of you just, you know.
1:18:11
I felt, yeah, like we, it was really incredible.
1:18:15
I think because when it's game day, you reached that peak
1:18:17
performance and everyone came back.
1:18:20
You know, I said I can keep going forever and I'd love to
1:18:22
learn so much more, but I do want to, I do want to get to
1:18:25
where you're up to now and because that's also interesting
1:18:27
for me. We've gotten so distracted.
1:18:29
With this whole history of yours and it's amazing.
1:18:32
'Cause it really deserves a podcast.
1:18:33
And it's on its own, but literally.
1:18:35
Like when I heard you were coming and you were united.
1:18:38
Yeah. I like, wow, that's so
1:18:40
interesting to me. Like I want to.
1:18:42
I have so much like to discuss. It's like an hour and a half in
1:18:46
my and. I was like, now we did that
1:18:47
there. Yeah, I only.
1:18:49
Read one thing on chat Chief PT But but no, I wanna know our
1:18:54
podcast is gonna be delayed. So you had flown these missions
1:18:58
you continued to serve for the following 15 years or so, right,
1:19:02
right. Seen any combat beyond that?
1:19:05
No, not in the Marine Corps. OK, good.
1:19:07
And it's like, you know. Thank God, I think you see
1:19:09
enough thank. God and and then you decided to
1:19:13
hang your hat of service and then went to work for commercial
1:19:15
tell. Tell me about that process.
1:19:17
Early on in the Marine Corps, even before on my way to flight
1:19:20
school, I was in a squadron for a few months with a lot of
1:19:22
reservists who were airline guys.
1:19:24
And I realized that, you know, I'd already kind of started
1:19:27
flying a little bit. And I realized that I never want
1:19:29
to stop. So although I never plan to be
1:19:33
an airline pilot, you know, it just seemed like I had, you
1:19:37
know, it was the logical next thing.
1:19:39
And so I kind of, I always thought I'd do that.
1:19:42
And I was when you, when you get your wings, you have an 8 year
1:19:46
commitment. And now I think it might be 10
1:19:48
years even. But so I only, I only got my
1:19:51
wings after being in the Marine Corps for 3 1/2 years and then I
1:19:54
had eight years to go. So when I was done with my
1:19:56
operational tour, I still had like 2 1/2 years left.
1:20:00
Of Marine Corps time and I was I wanted to get out.
1:20:03
I was planning to get out. I had done 2 deployments.
1:20:06
Lily only she was alive for one of them.
1:20:09
But saying goodbye to your kids for seven months is not natural.
1:20:12
It's not right. It's not not something I wanted
1:20:15
to keep doing. So two of those is enough.
1:20:18
And I said, I'm going to go be an instructor and I'll teach
1:20:21
kids how to fly and then I'll be able to transition to airlines.
1:20:26
Age 65 happened in 2007 where the airline industry, the
1:20:30
mandatory retirement went from 60 to 65.
1:20:32
And that's when I could get, I could get out that next summer.
1:20:35
And but the, the, the, the progression, career progression
1:20:38
was stagnant because of that. It, it already downturned from
1:20:43
September 11th in the airline industry.
1:20:44
And then with the financial crisis of O7O8, there was
1:20:47
another hit to the airline industry.
1:20:49
So they had they didn't need any more pilots.
1:20:51
There was no expansion going on. So I said at right at that
1:20:56
moment it, the Marine Corps asked me to go meet an attache.
1:20:59
So I went and did that because they asked me to do it because
1:21:02
they needed a guy who could fly. So I had an airplane and I could
1:21:05
stay current. And then I at.
1:21:09
That. Point I said I'm staying in for
1:21:11
retirement because that took me to 15 1/2 years.
1:21:14
And then so I had to do another couple jobs, but I was able to
1:21:18
finish up current as an instructor pilot and then I got
1:21:23
hired at at United. Right, right, right.
1:21:25
Like went right in the door. You knew you wanted to work for
1:21:28
United specifically. Well, I wanted to work for
1:21:30
Continental back in O Eight, OK, because I wanted to come home.
1:21:33
It was literally my ticket to come home to my hometown.
1:21:35
Lily was able to go to my middle school and high school, the one
1:21:37
I graduated from, and being military kids, you know, that
1:21:41
was like something I wanted to give them a little bit of.
1:21:43
Let's give a shout out. What school was this the.
1:21:45
Rumson Ferryman High School. Oh, nice.
1:21:47
OK. And then so, yeah, I always
1:21:50
wanted Continental and then then with the merger became United.
1:21:53
It's amazing airline. It's been I've been there 11
1:21:55
years now, November. You wanted united.
1:21:58
I'm I'm just curious like over delta or American.
1:22:01
I'm so curious about this topic. At the at the moment in in O 8,
1:22:06
the place to be in O seven O 8 when I was first thinking about
1:22:09
getting out, the place to go was Southwest, which seems kind of
1:22:11
weird now, but it was the place to go.
1:22:14
But I always wanted continental. Are you talking about in terms
1:22:16
of compensation? Are you talking about in terms
1:22:18
of? Yeah, flexibility.
1:22:20
You want to get a you know, you want to get in video when it's X
1:22:23
not Y, right? You know, you, that's the way I
1:22:25
looked at it. And it's also I what I was told
1:22:27
the my Marine pilots like my, my Navy students as well.
1:22:31
Like this is not a date. This is not a girlfriend.
1:22:34
This is a marriage because it's all about seniority.
1:22:37
When you go in an airline pilot's a pilot, a captain's a
1:22:40
captain. You know how I get my schedule?
1:22:43
It's where where I am, let's say on on the line for the buffet at
1:22:46
the Kiddush is based solely on your date of hire.
1:22:50
Yeah. So it's you don't ideally you
1:22:54
want to go to an airline and and like you're getting married.
1:22:57
You know, I want to pick the right woman.
1:22:58
I want to pick the right airline.
1:22:59
So for me, Continental and then United, because of the Newark
1:23:04
base being 45 minutes from my hometown, I didn't want to
1:23:06
commute. I wanted to be able to drive to
1:23:07
work. Commute is when you fly to work.
1:23:09
So I want to be able to drive to work, which gives you a lot of
1:23:11
flexibility and a lot of you know.
1:23:14
You know, I once went for fun and I drove a race car around
1:23:17
the tracks and it was exhilarating.
1:23:20
It hit 200 miles an hour and it was crazy.
1:23:23
And then when I drove back home, I was like, what's going on
1:23:26
here? Like I'm doing 60 like a go
1:23:28
Kart. Yeah.
1:23:29
That's what I'm curious about you, is, is, are you finding any
1:23:32
thrill out of it? Are you enjoying it in flying?
1:23:34
Yeah, right now. You going to commercial I mean?
1:23:37
Even in the even in the Marine Corps, like it wasn't thrilling.
1:23:42
It sounds crazy, but the same thing that you just described,
1:23:46
one of the things you learn is low level flying.
1:23:49
So in this in the TA-4 that I flew, like I said, it didn't
1:23:52
have a computer chip. There was no recording device
1:23:55
and no recorder in it. So the the, the instructors in
1:23:58
there were like a little bit cowboyish and we did our low
1:24:00
levels at 50 feet. So we fly around at 420 knots,
1:24:03
which is like over 500 miles an hour at 50 feet.
1:24:07
Wow in in the canyons out West in Arizona, New Mexico and
1:24:11
Southern California. So we're like down in the, in
1:24:15
the ground, in the earth, in the flying very fast.
1:24:19
And when you first do that, the world, it takes a couple minutes
1:24:21
to get used to that. We call it the speed rush, the
1:24:24
speed. But then you develop a speed
1:24:25
rush baseline. And I remember my instructor at
1:24:28
one point being like, hey, go up to 50, go up to 100 feet.
1:24:31
So I go up to 100 feet doing 420 and the world kind of stopped
1:24:34
because that was half as half the speed rush, same thing.
1:24:39
So then all of a sudden like flying at 100 feet was like
1:24:41
boring. I want to get back down to 50
1:24:43
where it was like a little bit challenging.
1:24:45
And that's the way it always is. Like it in minute you is is a
1:24:50
thrill for a second and then it becomes all right routine and
1:24:53
you're constantly you don't even flying in F18 fastens, even dog
1:24:58
fighting. When I was teaching dog
1:24:59
fighting, it was almost like I could be thinking about three
1:25:01
things and teaching it. When you're first doing it, your
1:25:04
head, your mind's exploding. You caught your helmet's on fire
1:25:08
because your, your, your mind's exploding like, but everything,
1:25:13
that's what it's, it's about being routine.
1:25:15
Nothing is. If it's exciting, you're doing
1:25:17
something wrong. Love it.
1:25:18
So it it's time to get into the secrets of the airline industry
1:25:21
because you know, when I'm sitting on a plane and we're on
1:25:26
the runway, right, and they cancel the flight and they go
1:25:29
back because of weather, right? I always ask myself, who decides
1:25:34
that it's weather? Who decides that it's not right?
1:25:37
Is it government run? Do they have to say that it's,
1:25:40
you know, they sometimes say it's mechanical because you
1:25:43
could get your money back if it's not.
1:25:45
And right, I'm curious about that world.
1:25:46
Here's it's, It's a very Gray world.
1:25:49
And here's a good example. You're at Newark and there's a
1:25:53
lot of thunderstorms coming through, right?
1:25:55
And you can get out now. Let's say you're trying to go
1:25:58
West, going to Chicago or California, but the line is
1:26:01
coming from Pennsylvania and there's some hole, maybe there's
1:26:04
some holes in it. You can get out now, but you
1:26:06
have a minor mechanical that sets you back half an hour.
1:26:08
And now the holes in the in the thing closed up and you can't
1:26:12
get through that. And now everyone's trying to get
1:26:13
around the South, through Georgia, get around that line of
1:26:16
thunderstorms in the South. And now there's a huge, everyone
1:26:18
who was trying to go West, West needs to go all the way down to
1:26:21
Georgia to go West. So now you're like 10th in line,
1:26:25
right? And then the pilot times out
1:26:28
because that modern mechanical is on his third flight of the
1:26:30
day and he doesn't have the crew day for it.
1:26:33
So now you're 2 hours late and the pilot's time out.
1:26:37
Is that a crew issue? Is that a mechanical issue or is
1:26:40
that a weather issue? So it, it depends it, you know,
1:26:43
and obviously the airline is going to, they're very, very
1:26:47
transparent with the app. Now I I found out a lot of times
1:26:51
from the app what you know what's going on.
1:26:56
For weather wise you mean? No, like the other day I or
1:27:00
there was, yeah. Now, now my iPad shows exactly
1:27:04
the same thing as the app, so it's the same thing.
1:27:06
But yeah, yeah. Like the other day I went to
1:27:09
Chicago and back and it was when the there were long, long waits
1:27:13
for wheels up times to get back. And you know, I landed Chicago
1:27:16
and I was coming back, supposed to come back to Newark.
1:27:18
And it's like I opened up my iPad and it's 2 1/2 hour delay,
1:27:22
2:15 and then became 245 delay just because there weren't
1:27:25
enough slots. There were wheels up times to
1:27:27
come back here. Yeah.
1:27:30
So you, it's, it's what, what's on your app, United app is
1:27:35
pretty much, yeah. And the other day actually it
1:27:39
was, I remember looking and, and saying now this isn't quite
1:27:42
right, you know, because we were delayed.
1:27:46
It's first flight of the day that shouldn't have happened.
1:27:47
But there was a maintenance issue on the jet and we were
1:27:51
delayed. They, they ended up saying this
1:27:55
jet's not serviceable. So we had to go to another jet.
1:27:58
And then all but our original jet had been catered.
1:28:01
So all the, all the catering carts were in the original jet.
1:28:05
So the people, by the time I got out of the cockpit, they had,
1:28:08
they had, they knew they were going to get 80.
1:28:10
I got out to the, to the gate area and there's no one left
1:28:13
there. They were already, all the
1:28:14
passengers were at the new gate, you know, and I, we had to get
1:28:18
the flight plan and took. So we get out there and now I
1:28:22
have the new jet, the gas I need the people on board, the car
1:28:26
goes on board. Oh wait, it hasn't been catered
1:28:29
because they had to get an extra catering truck to go to the old
1:28:31
jet instead of taking it from the warehouse directly the jet.
1:28:34
They had to go unload it and reload it.
1:28:36
Even more time. Yeah.
1:28:37
And then so we end up taking off an hour late, I think it was
1:28:40
going to LA and we take off. And I see the reason for the
1:28:43
delay is servicing. They blame the caterers.
1:28:45
It's not the caterer's fault. The jet maintenance should have
1:28:47
had the jet ready. I'm sorry your your plane was
1:28:49
late. The app said because of
1:28:51
servicing. OK, Can I just point out I don't
1:28:54
quite frankly care what it is, a news vault it is.
1:28:56
Here's what I know when it comes to these airlines, it's not just
1:28:59
United. It's not exclusive to them.
1:29:00
And they all do it. They do whatever they want.
1:29:02
We are at their mercy. At the end of the day, the
1:29:05
passengers, we fly when they tell us to.
1:29:08
We go home and the flight is cancelled when they tell us to
1:29:11
and whether service, but who cares?
1:29:14
Who cares? I feel like they get to do sort
1:29:17
of whatever they want and it's it's a little bit not fair.
1:29:20
Like as the consumer, I would expect a little bit of
1:29:23
accountability to the point where we get some, some rebate
1:29:26
or refund or like a free ticket every now and then because of
1:29:29
our nobody cares if the airlines get through pretty much it's
1:29:32
like what's the deal with that? Does the government regulate
1:29:35
them a little bit? First of all, anybody hold them
1:29:37
accountable? There's no, There's no the the
1:29:41
airline has no interest in delaying you.
1:29:44
We only make money when that jet takes you where you need to go
1:29:47
and is on to the next mission. There's no reason why the
1:29:50
airline wants to have any delay. OK.
1:29:53
I get, but I'm sorry to interrupt.
1:29:54
I get this. I fly literally every other week
1:29:56
for 20 years. I have really important
1:29:58
questions to ask you or serious serious questions.
1:30:01
By the way, flown on one of his flights, we fly out of Newark a
1:30:04
lot, so. I need to know a few a few very
1:30:06
important questions. First of all, if you don't mind,
1:30:09
It's just like I'm I'm living in the East Coast.
1:30:11
What's the best airport to fly out of?
1:30:14
Is it JFK, Newark or LaGuardia? Side of the river in Newark.
1:30:17
Newark. Newark is always.
1:30:18
Better, if you're in Manhattan, you can go either way.
1:30:21
It doesn't matter if I had a choice between all.
1:30:23
Three, you have to go one way. If I had a choice between all
1:30:25
three, which airport is performing the best?
1:30:27
Reliability, Yeah, as far as taking off on time and, you
1:30:30
know, having. JFK has the most resources.
1:30:32
Newark has a lot in a compressed area.
1:30:35
OK, but. So you're saying stay away from
1:30:37
LaGuardia? Got it.
1:30:38
OK. Well, LaGuardia no LaGuardia can
1:30:40
sometimes you get in and out of there real easily.
1:30:42
It the answer is it depends. OK, It's where are you on this
1:30:46
side of the river? I am, but I would literally
1:30:48
rather drive 20 extra minutes to go to a better airport.
1:30:51
Maybe, and it it depends on the flight, depends where you're
1:30:54
going. You're saying it depends on so
1:30:55
many things. Back to the Gray thing, OK?
1:30:57
Depends on where you're going 'cause the airport.
1:30:59
Yeah, it's OK. I'm gonna keep pushing.
1:31:01
I'm gonna keep pushing. I have other good questions.
1:31:03
So when you, when I'm flying and I go to Google Flights, it gives
1:31:06
me 20 different options. I can go to Delta, I can go to
1:31:09
American, I can go to United, I can go to JetBlue, literally
1:31:12
almost every time I fly. And I'm talking about going to
1:31:14
Chicago, going to LA, going to Florida.
1:31:17
I hear obviously you work for United.
1:31:18
United, you already have the most points.
1:31:21
Where you want to that's no my, my question is you know you
1:31:24
we're talking about mechanical, we're talking about catering,
1:31:27
we're talking about logistics, we're talking about processes.
1:31:29
Airlines ultimately have to take responsibility for all these
1:31:32
things, right. So if they have a more well run
1:31:34
oiled machine right then likelihood that I'll get out on
1:31:37
time 1. 100%. Is there an airline that ranks
1:31:41
like if you fly Delta or United I think.
1:31:43
Delta and United are pretty much neck and neck and Americans not
1:31:46
far behind. OK, we, like I said, the
1:31:49
resources we have now with with the, there's so much data going
1:31:52
in. Sure, the there it is an
1:31:56
incredible I've been doing it 11 years now.
1:31:58
I'm amazed at how operationally efficient it is when when
1:32:01
there's a wrinkle in the system, how we compensate, how we, we we
1:32:05
make it. Are you talking about United?
1:32:06
United. OK.
1:32:07
Yeah, because does that mean? Delta, I don't fly for them, but
1:32:09
Delta I'm sure has the same technology and it gets down to
1:32:13
the dollar. I'm not kidding.
1:32:14
These things you can Google and see how the airlines rank and
1:32:17
how. No, no, no, I'm talking about.
1:32:19
The airports are the best or not sure about.
1:32:22
Good questions like. There's so much data actually.
1:32:24
Do are you actually pushing buttons the entire time or are
1:32:27
you? Actually beautiful.
1:32:28
That was a. Question you just like I don't
1:32:30
mind you getting, I don't mind you getting to that question.
1:32:33
I still, I'm still pushing. I'm sorry, I have to because
1:32:36
ultimately I've heard in the past that Virgin Airlines or
1:32:39
other airlines like that, they pay extra to be closer perhaps
1:32:43
to taking off. Can you tell me about that?
1:32:45
It depends on like, like if Delta owns it, owns it.
1:32:48
Like you go to Hartsfield, Delta's gonna have the best
1:32:50
bait, the best gates. You go to Newark, we're gonna
1:32:53
united have the best gates. There you go, that makes a
1:32:54
difference. Right, makes a difference.
1:32:56
Okay, perfect. So united, so united Newark.
1:32:58
That's the marriage over there. Percent.
1:33:00
Okay, JFK, who owns JFK as far as airline?
1:33:03
We're not in JFK at all, Okay? I think that's all the other
1:33:05
airlines besides United. In this area.
1:33:07
United is not in JFK whatsoever. No, we pulled out.
1:33:09
We gave our slots to Delta. It's about slots.
1:33:12
Because that gives you seniority as far as who's taking out and
1:33:15
who's going to the front of the line and getting that pocket to
1:33:17
get out, I guess. Yeah, it's pretty.
1:33:19
It's pretty like I was at Heathrow couple weeks ago and I
1:33:23
felt like British Airways was getting better treatment.
1:33:25
But you know, there's a reason there's stuff you don't even as
1:33:28
a pilot, I don't know. I don't know what every flight
1:33:31
in front of me in line is going and maybe I'm waiting in line
1:33:34
for take off because of my slot, my exit fix, like I'm the fix
1:33:38
that I'm exiting the area on. Maybe like there's space and
1:33:41
there's a guy coming from JFK and a guy coming from LaGuardia
1:33:43
for the same fix that I don't know about those guys.
1:33:45
So we can't hit there at the same moment in time.
1:33:48
So why is that? Why is American taking off in
1:33:50
front of me? Well, probably because he's
1:33:51
going to a different fix, different departure fix.
1:33:53
So it's there's so much stuff going on.
1:33:56
It's an incredibly huge. You know, the United United
1:33:59
music is Gershwin and it is so fitting.
1:34:02
Like I, you know, our when you're on hold or whatever, you
1:34:05
hear that Gershwin in Chicago when you're going through the
1:34:07
tunnel there, you heard Gershwin.
1:34:08
It is a Symphony when it all comes together and we push on
1:34:11
time like, and I have, you know, a window into the all the
1:34:14
different moving parts. And to some extent I can, you
1:34:17
know, lean, lean on that. But it all, when it all comes
1:34:20
together, it is a Symphony. It it it is an incredibly
1:34:23
complex operation. Love it.
1:34:25
I have one more question please. So if I'm flying United Newark,
1:34:28
that's smart, right, because United right owns Newark, so to
1:34:31
speak right and that and that helps.
1:34:33
What about just one tip for flying so you could fly less
1:34:37
stressed right? A lot of people fly.
1:34:38
I, I, I chill when I fly. I fly an hour and a half before
1:34:41
and I go a. Lot.
1:34:42
Yeah, so. What are the tips for flying
1:34:44
like early morning or you know? I like any other tips that you I
1:34:48
call the dawn patrol. That's we call it the Marine,
1:34:49
Marine core. The first flight of the day,
1:34:51
it's painful to get up, but The Jets generally there.
1:34:53
What people don't realize is that jet is constantly flying.
1:34:57
It's like the opposite of the Pony Express.
1:34:58
When the Pony Express riders, they used to swap horses because
1:35:02
the horses could run like 12 miles an hour.
1:35:03
I'll take your word for it. Yeah, yeah.
1:35:05
Now the horse keeps running. The plane can fly all the time,
1:35:08
but the people can't fly 24 hours a day.
1:35:10
But the the plane is constantly, the plane is taking you wherever
1:35:13
you're going to. LA might have come in from
1:35:15
Shannon, Ireland and you know, it's a constant, you know, we
1:35:19
don't make money when our jets on the ground make the money
1:35:21
when the when The Jets are flying.
1:35:22
So first flight of the day, plane probably got in that
1:35:25
night, maybe the red eye couple hours.
1:35:28
First flight of the day is always the best.
1:35:29
Definitely wouldn't fly in the afternoon in the summertime
1:35:32
around here. It's thunderstorm, you know,
1:35:33
daily heating thunderstorms, which is the afternoon
1:35:36
thunderstorms are a real thing and it might be a blue sky here,
1:35:39
but the way the airspace is, if there's thunderstorms in the
1:35:41
wrong place trying to get into Newark, your plane is not going
1:35:44
to be there on time. You might, your plane might have
1:35:46
to go to an alternate because it doesn't have the gas to hang
1:35:48
around to wait to get into Newark.
1:35:50
It might be in Philadelphia or, or, you know, somewhere else.
1:35:53
So. And that's gonna gob you up.
1:35:55
So early morning if you can't do that, maybe later in the evening
1:35:59
when you can, like, say, yeah, my plane is coming in from LA
1:36:01
and it's landing on time. I'm gonna head to the airport.
1:36:03
OK, I appreciate it. I do have more questions about
1:36:05
I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass it over to Ushi because he's
1:36:07
curious about that. I.
1:36:08
Want to know exactly what we did?
1:36:09
Yeah. I'm also very curious.
1:36:10
I want to know. Exactly.
1:36:12
Like how much of it do you as the pilot actually control
1:36:15
versus flying push a button and it just automatic like I imagine
1:36:18
when you take off, like that's very manual, right?
1:36:21
Yeah. The taxiing is very manual.
1:36:23
Yeah. So, you know, taxiing is moving
1:36:26
the jet on the ground. That's very manual.
1:36:28
I'm literally steering it and starting it and stopping it.
1:36:30
And then the take off is very manual.
1:36:32
But even that's somewhat automated.
1:36:33
The throttles most of the time set themselves.
1:36:35
But I'm airline flying. I usually fly for 10 or 15
1:36:38
minutes until I get bored and then I put the autopilot on.
1:36:41
It's kind of like you got like when you get on the Parkway, you
1:36:44
know, you drive around here, but when you get on the Parkway, if
1:36:46
there's no traffic or I'm setting the cruise control, I
1:36:48
can take a little bit bit of the work off.
1:36:50
So we do the same thing, we get up to a certain altitude.
1:36:52
But that's optional. Like if you wanted to fly the
1:36:54
plane the entire time yourself, you could.
1:36:56
No, when you're up in the cruising, cruising altitude,
1:36:58
everyone's got to be on. Autopilot automatically you have
1:37:00
to go to autopilot. And then coming down the same
1:37:02
thing, if there's bad weather, I generally tend to fly a little
1:37:05
bit earlier, like it's going to be really windy on landing,
1:37:07
gusting, challenging landing. I'll fly a little bit earlier so
1:37:11
I can get, you know, get the motor skills going, get, get
1:37:13
warmed up. But you could, theoretically,
1:37:16
when the weather's bad and I can't see, I have to be able to
1:37:19
see the land, you know, I get to use my eyes for the landing.
1:37:22
The plane doesn't. The plane can land and track
1:37:25
down the runway on run and that's the only.
1:37:28
Way you could sit back I literally the entire thing, even
1:37:31
the landing part. Yeah, I could.
1:37:32
You push a couple of buttons and the plane so.
1:37:34
Then you don't have to see when you're landing technically.
1:37:36
The plane doesn't have to see. I have to see if I'm physically
1:37:39
at the controls manually landing.
1:37:41
I have to be able to see something.
1:37:42
Well, when you when you land, do you land with auto land or do
1:37:44
you actually? Once or twice a year I have to
1:37:45
use auto land when the weather's bad.
1:37:47
But wouldn't you always? I always use autoland.
1:37:49
Good. Question about that.
1:37:50
Sure, we'd rather trust the machine than a human making an
1:37:53
error. Perhaps.
1:37:54
Maybe there's, I think there will be, there will come a day
1:37:57
in a lot in a lot of the airlines, not United, but some
1:38:01
of the foreign carriers especially use the automation
1:38:04
more mandatory. And maybe that, you know, like
1:38:08
there was a mishap in San Francisco.
1:38:10
That might have been part of that being because automation at
1:38:12
the end is a crutch. So if you're leaning on a crutch
1:38:15
all the time, you're not as strong as you know, you're not,
1:38:18
you're not going to walk as strong, right, if you're on
1:38:20
crutch. So automation is a crutch.
1:38:23
We I like to look at it as a tool.
1:38:24
That's where the airline looks at it as a tool that you should
1:38:27
use the appropriate times. But in the end, we need to be
1:38:29
able to fly like getting back to my analogy of like being good at
1:38:32
directions. The best is if you have a good,
1:38:35
if you can read a map and you're good at directions and you have
1:38:37
an iPhone and you have automation and you could do both
1:38:40
you. Could do everything.
1:38:41
So that's the reason why you shouldn't.
1:38:43
And my airline doesn't, you know, encourages people to fly
1:38:46
to keep the skills up and to keep.
1:38:47
OK. Yeah, This is for me a very
1:38:49
important question. If I could have just one
1:38:51
question to ask him like this is what I would this is what I
1:38:53
would pick. I am a what you call a very
1:38:56
anxious flyer, and I flew a pretty decent man.
1:38:59
I think I fly more than the average person right and it's
1:39:03
always an adventure for me already the night before I'm
1:39:06
getting anxious right The fact that I'm flying the next day,
1:39:08
right while I'm on the flight the entire time I'm nervous
1:39:11
you're. Worried about losing, missing
1:39:12
the flight? What are you worried?
1:39:13
About no, no, no, no. The safety, the the danger in
1:39:16
flying is what I'm worried about, right?
1:39:18
I don't love the comfort part of it either.
1:39:20
But that's, you know, not what keeps me up at night while I'm
1:39:23
on the flight. If there's a little turtle
1:39:24
chair, I hold on to my chair. Or to me.
1:39:27
I or to my whoever's next to me, whether I know them or not.
1:39:31
And I'm just always nervous, like some people's gonna go
1:39:33
wrong, right? How many things have to go
1:39:35
right? You know, I'm in this like metal
1:39:37
tube, like 30,000 feet in the year, right.
1:39:40
And if, God forbid, something goes wrong, yeah, there's not a
1:39:43
lot of options for us. Yeah, I'm not on solid ground,
1:39:45
so I'm always very nervous about it.
1:39:47
Right. And I keep hearing people.
1:39:48
It's the safest thing. You have more of a chance of
1:39:51
getting struck by lightning and dying that way than you do on a
1:39:53
flight. And there's more automobile
1:39:56
accidents that goes on. You die faster from a car crash
1:39:58
than you would from a plane crash.
1:39:59
All that good stuff I keep hearing.
1:40:01
Yet somehow I'm not convinced. I'm still very, very nervous.
1:40:04
I'm still very anxious. What could you tell me as a I
1:40:07
tell you, one of the things I'm very nervous about is.
1:40:10
I think of the amount of maintenance it has to go and how
1:40:13
often do they actually maintain this plan.
1:40:14
It's unbelievable. And it's some lazy guy that's at
1:40:17
the bottom that has to do something.
1:40:18
He forgets to do it. And there's so many things that
1:40:20
go wrong here that I feel like I just can't trust the system.
1:40:23
I can't trust the completely that I feel like I'm gonna be
1:40:27
safer. What could you tell me?
1:40:28
Like, it is 100% the safest thing you could do.
1:40:32
Like, the most dangerous thing is getting to the airport once
1:40:35
you're there. And but these are just
1:40:36
statistics. I can tell you this for three
1:40:38
hours. And but it is truly the safest
1:40:42
thing. Yeah.
1:40:42
You are in an aluminum tube hurdling through space at 8910
1:40:46
miles a minute. You know, you're going, you're
1:40:48
going around the we demolish time and space.
1:40:51
I mean, I can take off and take you to Johannesburg, you know,
1:40:53
in one flight or I can take you to Hong Kong in one flight.
1:40:56
It, it's an amazing thing that we do, but it is done to a level
1:41:00
of safety that is it's, it's astounding to me, even after 11
1:41:04
years of seeing it. I, I was, I consider I love my,
1:41:07
my, my family, my, we just hosted some, some widows from
1:41:12
Israel the last Shabbos and it was like a, a nightmare of mine
1:41:16
to not to go and not come back to my wife and kids.
1:41:19
Like I was obsessed with being, of course I was going to get the
1:41:22
mission done. Being as safe as I could be as a
1:41:24
Marine fighter pilot, Of course I had to get the mission done.
1:41:27
I get to the airlines and I realize that me on the continuum
1:41:30
of like cowboy safe, dude, I was the safest dude in the squadron.
1:41:33
I get to the airlines and I'm like, whoa, flying a single seat
1:41:36
fighter. I was a complete cowboy.
1:41:38
Like the levels of safety do we have in the airlines and there's
1:41:41
a reason the statistics back it up.
1:41:43
You guys would be hard pressed to remember the last time an
1:41:45
American airliner crashed. Can can you remember one?
1:41:48
It was in your lifetimes, but it was a long time ago.
1:41:50
It is So the statistics back it. We United Airlines alone flies
1:41:54
half a million people a day. That's one airline.
1:41:56
And you see sometimes more, sometimes less, but on average
1:41:59
half a million people a day fly on us safely most time on time.
1:42:03
The levels of safety are incredible.
1:42:06
It it is it's it. I'm honored to be a part of it,
1:42:09
and that's what I would tell you.
1:42:10
Have you tried vodka? Xanax?
1:42:15
No. So that's what I would tell you.
1:42:16
But for you to really understand turbulence, which is most people
1:42:19
ask me about, is the same as you know, some days you look at the
1:42:23
ocean, yesterday the ocean was flat, it was glass.
1:42:27
Some days you look at it and it's choppy.
1:42:29
It's that's the same thing with air.
1:42:30
Air is just a fluid like the ocean, right?
1:42:31
So when when you go through pockets of choppy air, you're
1:42:34
going to bounce around a little bit.
1:42:35
The plane is overbuilt, like 20X stronger than it needs to be to
1:42:39
get through any kind of turbulence.
1:42:41
Have you ever heard of a plane losing a wing over turbulence?
1:42:44
It just doesn't happen. Sometimes people bounce around
1:42:47
if. But the wing looks so fragile
1:42:49
when it's flopping around. It looks like it's so feeble and
1:42:52
like it could be easily like. Well, that gets into like
1:42:54
something, I'm not an engineer, but that gets into like tensile
1:42:56
strength thing. Like something that bends is in
1:42:59
in some ways stronger than something that doesn't bend.
1:43:01
That's more brilliant. So the aircraft is engineered to
1:43:04
be, it's incredibly engineered to do this mission.
1:43:07
It's just perfect tool for the mission and you're so safe up
1:43:11
there if you really want to. Have you ever flown an airplane
1:43:14
like gone and? Flown one, Yeah.
1:43:16
What do you mean flown 1? So you.
1:43:17
Can go to an airplane. Like bin on the cockpit.
1:43:19
Yeah, you can go to any flight school at any airport, and I
1:43:21
don't know, for 150 or 200 bucks going on what they call
1:43:23
Discovery flights. And I've told this to a number
1:43:26
of people. I don't know who's taking me up
1:43:27
on it, but if you go actually fly an airplane, like the
1:43:30
instructor will take you up there and he'll let you fly it.
1:43:32
You'll see how simple it is. And you're going to bounce
1:43:35
around a lot in a light airplane a lot more than you do in a
1:43:37
heavy airplane. Even a 737, which is one of our
1:43:40
smaller airplanes at the airline bounces around more than like
1:43:45
the plane I fly now or the the this 777.
1:43:50
The mass of the airplane, like a big ship going to the ocean
1:43:53
doesn't feel the waves, whereas a little a little speedboat
1:43:56
feels the waves, right? So it is, it's it's scary
1:44:01
because you're not in control and you can't see the waves, you
1:44:03
know, and you're not, in the end, you're not in control.
1:44:05
Yeah. So unless if you really wanted
1:44:07
to solve it, go fly an airplane and get at the controls and see
1:44:09
how simple it is. If you really wanted to, I'll.
1:44:11
Show you ready. But in the end, it's lack.
1:44:13
Of control, an elevator, you know what I mean?
1:44:15
Like if it's the highest floor, I'm serious.
1:44:16
If I go to a hotel, I don't want to stay in the highest floors.
1:44:18
I, I am so scared of heights. I'm really paranoid of heights.
1:44:22
I, I can't deal with it. I don't.
1:44:23
And the plane is the pinnacle of the heights for me.
1:44:26
So it's really, really a challenge.
1:44:28
But I you know IA. Little secret pilots have an
1:44:30
extreme respect for gravity. We're not afraid of heights.
1:44:33
Because I can be an airplane at like 8-8 miles high and I'm
1:44:36
totally fine. I I used to my plane, I used to
1:44:38
flow, I used to go 8 miles high with a view of a motorcycle, I'm
1:44:40
totally fine. But if I'm not, if I'm next to
1:44:42
the edge of a Cliff with I'm not tied in with repelling gear, No
1:44:46
thanks. On a tall building.
1:44:48
No thanks. It's we have we, we understand
1:44:50
gravity more than most people and yeah, there's I think fear
1:44:54
of heights is natural. I mean, it's a good thing and.
1:44:57
So you're always calm, like just another day in the office.
1:44:59
Like you never get nervous about anything like for the.
1:45:02
Only thing that stresses me out is inconveniencing.
1:45:03
Inconveniencing the passengers. The other day I didn't know how
1:45:06
long the catering trucks were going to be and hey, OPS, you
1:45:09
know what's up with the catering trucks?
1:45:11
Oh, yeah, they're at the other airplane.
1:45:12
All right. How long is it going to take?
1:45:14
I don't know. Like, I don't know if it's going
1:45:15
to be 10 minutes or 30 minutes. And what do I tell the people?
1:45:18
That's the only that stresses me out.
1:45:20
Like in terms of operational stuff you.
1:45:22
You got it down. My job is to make it so boring,
1:45:25
to make this flight to London the most boring thing ever.
1:45:28
I'm curious if anything stresses you out.
1:45:29
I mean what what do you stress over?
1:45:30
What's your What my? Daughter being pissed off of me.
1:45:34
Not getting not getting a kosher meal.
1:45:36
Is that what happened? Yeah, it does, yeah.
1:45:38
Oh, OK, yeah. You guys get the same meals we
1:45:41
do you get the same food I. Get business class kosher, which
1:45:43
is really it's amazing. I feel like you deserve that.
1:45:46
No, it's the airline is amazing. I I couldn't believe it.
1:45:49
From day one. I selected business class kosher
1:45:51
and if they have I've I've been called out to a flight two or
1:45:54
three hours before the flight and somehow they get me the but
1:45:57
sometimes they don't. Have you flown to Israel?
1:46:00
Yeah, I used to do it a lot. Yeah, but October 7th changed
1:46:02
that for you. Yeah, OK.
1:46:06
And, and I wanted to become a captain, so I had to come down
1:46:08
an airplane to become a captain. I see.
1:46:10
So now you're domestic only? No, I go to London, I go to
1:46:12
Europe. Oh, what's your favorite place
1:46:14
to go to Tel Aviv? Oh, nice.
1:46:16
Like. Paris I had to learn French for
1:46:17
the Marine Corps, so I like to practice French.
1:46:20
Are you in and out or do you like stick around wherever you
1:46:22
go for like a day or two? No, you generally when you go to
1:46:25
Europe, you're there for a day. So it's not a day, it's like a
1:46:28
24 hour period. So most of the nights like now
1:46:30
is when the flights start leaving, five or six flights
1:46:33
start leaving at this time of day.
1:46:35
So when you go to Europe, you get there in their morning,
1:46:37
which is kind of very early in the morning for us.
1:46:40
Do you have a separate pilot voice?
1:46:41
No, no, yeah, people you're you're urinated, but.
1:46:44
Like, how do you say it? If you start off your sentence,
1:46:46
what does it sound like when you first welcome aboard?
1:46:48
I know you're. Ready for him?
1:46:50
Yeah, no, I want to know how it sounds.
1:46:51
Yeah. What do you say?
1:46:51
Welcome aboard. Welcome aboard United Flight XX.
1:46:55
You know, regular tone, Yeah. Some of the pilots are more
1:46:58
talkative than others like some of them like they like tell you
1:47:01
everything they explain through nicely like and some of them are
1:47:03
very curt and direct. I.
1:47:04
Introduce my first officer. That's it.
1:47:06
Yeah, I tell you, welcome aboard.
1:47:08
Flight time today. If there's any operational thing
1:47:11
like it goes up time, I obviously cover that.
1:47:13
I get the weather in for the destination.
1:47:15
I introduce my first officer. You usually find the first
1:47:19
officers go. Yeah.
1:47:20
Oh, I don't know who they are. I don't know.
1:47:22
I know who they are by name, but they fly with different.
1:47:24
People, but you can meet them. You meet them at the first time
1:47:25
every time you go on. Is that awkward?
1:47:27
Or is that? No, it's amazing.
1:47:28
It's it's amazing. 'Cause you automatically
1:47:30
connect, 'cause you both like they're.
1:47:31
Yeah, the first couple minutes you're kind of hanging out.
1:47:33
How's your day going? You get to know the person.
1:47:35
I'm sorry, I'm jumping only because of a time and we have to
1:47:38
wrap up. So I have a couple more
1:47:39
thoughts. You ever had to do an emergency
1:47:41
landing? In the Marine Corps, actually I
1:47:43
did 1 here at United, but it was like nothing.
1:47:45
It was the the cat. I was the first officer and the
1:47:49
captain's like, do you think we should declare an immersion?
1:47:50
I'm like, yeah, why not? What was it?
1:47:53
What's that Yeah, yeah, yeah. Depending on the time of day,
1:47:57
when the 1st they love it they I the last two guys I flew with
1:48:05
two guys ago, he he flew with the Bible.
1:48:07
So he asked me what hey, what is what is being what's a Jew, What
1:48:09
a Jews all about. So I, I say hand me, hand me
1:48:12
your Bible and I, you know, we're in the beginning of the
1:48:14
Torah. So I, I saw it was actually
1:48:17
incredible translation, but a Christian Bible.
1:48:19
I start going through, I'm like, here's Abraham, he married Sarah
1:48:22
here. You know, I went through it.
1:48:24
They, the guy I flew with the other day and we're walking out
1:48:27
like he's like, dude, he literally said, dude, you're an
1:48:30
inspiration. Wow.
1:48:31
He was like, we got to Chicago and it, it was too early to take
1:48:35
off to Dobbin before he took off.
1:48:36
I had to do it in Chicago and hey, dude, go get coffee.
1:48:39
What am I going to pray? Wow, that's.
1:48:40
Beautiful. He asked me.
1:48:41
Like it comes up a lot. Yeah.
1:48:45
Sometimes I say psalms in him, you know, and he like, you know,
1:48:49
for friends or who are, who are ill or whatever, it comes up all
1:48:53
the time. It we always talk about where
1:48:54
you were before. Sometimes I bring up that as an
1:48:57
IDF and they want to ask about that.
1:48:59
So you know it, it comes up a lot and you'll find that pilots
1:49:02
are spiritual people. Like I think because we're so in
1:49:06
the like you said it, I think like we see sunrises that no one
1:49:10
should ever be able to see. We see, we see things that no,
1:49:13
like I was going to London the other day and I, I see, I see a
1:49:16
satellite. It's always cool to see a
1:49:17
satellite moving across, tracking across the, the night
1:49:20
sky. I'm like, oh, dude, check out
1:49:21
the satellite. And then another one showed up
1:49:23
chasing it down. And then another one and another
1:49:26
one. And I think there were twenty of
1:49:27
them. And we're like, dude, he's like,
1:49:29
I think that's Starlink, so. They're just like hanging out in
1:49:32
the air. You're just like driving.
1:49:33
We're. Going to London, we're halfway
1:49:34
to London and he's like he, he got on the Internet and he's
1:49:36
like Gaddy, Starlink launched. Tonight, what do you see it as a
1:49:39
light so. There are like, like foul like
1:49:41
ducks in a row, but. What did you?
1:49:42
See, as a light, the lights, you could, you could see satellites,
1:49:46
yeah. And and a star like a star
1:49:49
that's moving, but there were like 20 of them in a perfect
1:49:51
line. He's like, yeah, Starlink
1:49:52
launched probably an hour before or whatever, 20 minutes launched
1:49:55
from California, but it chased us down and he, he did research
1:49:59
on the layover and he's like, yeah, that was Starlink.
1:50:01
And it splits, it goes out like that.
1:50:03
And then it splits up somehow and covers the night covers,
1:50:06
goes where he needs to go. But we see stuff like the
1:50:09
Northern Lights. We I mean.
1:50:10
It's the one thing that 911 took away.
1:50:12
I remember when was a little kid I used to be able to go into the
1:50:14
cockpit during. The flight.
1:50:16
And stand there and watch. It was amazing.
1:50:18
Yeah. And you can't do it anymore.
1:50:20
We bring, I love bringing the kids up.
1:50:21
We do it on the ground, but I remember doing that as a as a
1:50:24
kid. What do you appreciate more?
1:50:25
Sunrise, Sunset, Moonrise, Moonset.
1:50:27
It's all great. It's all great.
1:50:29
Yeah. I mean, that's.
1:50:30
Cool, you get to see it all. See it all and yeah.
1:50:33
The concept of moon rising and the moon's setting What?
1:50:36
I love is when the moon's rising and the sun's setting Oh yeah,
1:50:39
at the. Are you seeing it both sides of
1:50:40
the world? I've had two sets, sunsets in
1:50:42
one day a few times. You know, the sunset, like in
1:50:45
the Marine Corps, you have to get night time.
1:50:46
Like you had to log night time a certain amount.
1:50:49
So we'd have to fly at night. So we'd go out there and be
1:50:52
waiting for it to sun, the sun to set, so the sunsets.
1:50:55
And then you take off right after sunset and when you gain
1:50:58
elevation, you see the sun again.
1:51:00
That's amazing. Yeah.
1:51:02
Stuff like that. Like I could go on and on.
1:51:04
I have to tell you this, this has been uplifting, inspiring
1:51:08
and just like. No fun intended.
1:51:10
It's just, it's just been such a pleasure getting to know you.
1:51:13
I feel like I made a friend today and and I'm so happy that
1:51:16
you were able to come here. Thank you again Haim for the
1:51:18
recommending us that we get together.
1:51:21
I'm part of it. Yeah, thank you.
1:51:23
Haim and Navut, Exactly. Navut, how they say it in the
1:51:27
Hebrew way. They're taking lone soldiers and
1:51:29
giving them, you know, family feeling where everywhere they go
1:51:33
around in the United States, camaraderie, A camaraderie,
1:51:35
exactly a feeling of family. And it's beautiful.
1:51:37
So shout out to you guys. I just joined the Tillan chat a
1:51:41
few months ago and Michael Rapaport recently joined and he
1:51:45
put himself out there and showing that he's putting on
1:51:48
Tillan every day. The actor.
1:51:50
Yeah, yeah, I have to ask you to please send me a selfie every
1:51:52
once in awhile from the cockpit. I'm going to put it on that chat
1:51:55
and show people and I think it'll be inspiring for others.
1:51:57
Maybe he could join that chat, Michael.
1:51:59
Yeah. Yeah, I.
1:52:00
Don't know if you want to join the chats that are going to.
1:52:02
It's all day long, you know, No, you're a busy guy, but
1:52:04
definitely you gotta use your your.
1:52:07
Phone while you're no no. Oh, you also don't have a phone.
1:52:09
Yeah. Under the cockpit.
1:52:11
Yeah. She just bored as us.
1:52:12
Are you watching? Are you watching movies?
1:52:14
No, no. So you're just talking to the
1:52:15
cult? You talk, you hang out.
1:52:16
It's like, it's actually like a podcast.
1:52:18
I mean we, we sit there. They should do a podcast, yeah.
1:52:22
Oh wow, what a great. Idea.
1:52:23
Somebody should do that's. Part of the fun of like flying
1:52:26
with the new guy all the time, like I 2 weeks, 3 weeks ago, I
1:52:29
flew with the guy that had flown two or three times.
1:52:31
But most of the time it's a new guy and you get to know him and
1:52:33
you feel like you make a friend, like you got to trust the guy to
1:52:37
begin with and then you go on a great, you do a great.
1:52:40
What is maybe routine for us in this day and age, but it's not
1:52:42
routine. It's an incredible feeling of,
1:52:45
of accomplishment to, to, to accomplish that mission, to get
1:52:49
the mission to get people to London, to wherever you're.
1:52:51
Going, I have to ask you before I let you go.
1:52:53
There is there's two things I want to ask you.
1:52:55
But first of all, you have such an amazing history and
1:52:59
experience from all different walks of life and you've gone
1:53:02
through everything while being spiritual and finding, you know,
1:53:06
Orthodoxy and then you know, from conservative so much that
1:53:09
you went through in terms of also a job and a career and, you
1:53:13
know, a path. What would your message be to
1:53:16
the young people that are the young generation?
1:53:19
Yeah, so I'm involved in the mentoring thing at Arkhabad and
1:53:22
I told these guys the other the other day, do what you love.
1:53:27
It's a blessing to do that. Put the hard yards in figuring
1:53:32
out what you love and then don't give up.
1:53:34
Once you figure that out, you know, they say like, how do you
1:53:37
chop down a tree? We spend a lot of time
1:53:38
sharpening the axe and make you know, then you start chopping
1:53:41
down the tree. Well, just figure out what you
1:53:43
love and be very sure of that and then everything else falls
1:53:46
into place. That's beautiful.
1:53:48
I appreciate that. You know, we also ask you, I
1:53:51
don't know if you remember that we're going to ask you to pick a
1:53:54
candidate who you think would be a good guest on the podcast.
1:53:56
I have to ask you that before you go, but do you have any
1:53:59
questions for us before we let you go?
1:54:01
Not at all. It's been amazing.
1:54:02
Thank you for an incredible experience.
1:54:03
My first time in one of these things people have said a number
1:54:06
of times I should do it and I don't look for it, but somehow
1:54:08
it happened and and we're. Going to make you sign an
1:54:11
exclusivity by the way. Exactly.
1:54:13
I don't want to share you with anybody.
1:54:15
And we need to also do Part 2. Michael, I love it.
1:54:18
We got to get to this. Whole life.
1:54:19
The cockpit. Anytime.
1:54:20
There's so much. Yeah, yeah.
1:54:22
Anytime I love so who would you recommend?
1:54:23
After being a guest into the cockpit if you wanted.
1:54:25
To absolutely, yeah. Not where we're flying, but on
1:54:28
the ground. I do it all the time.
1:54:29
Can we do a podcast there? That would be interesting.
1:54:31
One of my my first flight to tell the Gaga dope was I'm way
1:54:36
back. What kind of celebrities?
1:54:37
He had, yeah, that's just one of those few, few, few others.
1:54:39
But so I went to Tel Aviv on the 777 the first time I went there.
1:54:43
And so this is a fight back. And, you know, I'm doing my
1:54:47
stuff in the cockpit. And one of the flight attendants
1:54:49
came up and said, hey, Gog Gadot in 1K or one, whatever that seat
1:54:53
was. And I didn't know the layout of
1:54:54
the seat. So I looked on the app and I
1:54:55
said, oh, I just been talking to her daughter.
1:54:58
I just talking to her because I was, I went out to go to the
1:55:01
bathroom where before we took off and and I said there was
1:55:04
this like 1012 year old girl in first class right there.
1:55:08
And I was like, hey, do you want to come check out the cockpit?
1:55:10
And she's like, no, no. And her mom's like go, go.
1:55:12
And it was Golgado. I didn't realize it.
1:55:13
And I said, don't worry about it.
1:55:15
You know, she said Gogado's like she's go, go.
1:55:18
And then she's like, I'm sorry, she's shy.
1:55:19
You know, I'm like, if she changed her mind when we land,
1:55:22
she wants please come on up. And yeah, so and then so we have
1:55:28
a we have a a bunk in that plane, which is right over first
1:55:31
class. So I got home and the bunk, it
1:55:35
was right over where Gaga Dote was sitting.
1:55:37
So it's like you take like a six hour nap coming back from Tel
1:55:40
Aviv. So I got back and I was like,
1:55:42
honey, I was, I slept on top of Gaga Dote last night.
1:55:47
But yeah, so that's. Fantastic.
1:55:49
Yeah. So I don't know why that came
1:55:51
up, but. It doesn't have to go back.
1:55:54
That story is worthwhile. Do you ask, you ask a podcast in
1:55:57
of itself that we're saying to do a podcast on the cockpit that
1:56:00
we can go and do, but I was asking you essentially who would
1:56:02
you recommend that would I threatened?
1:56:04
My wife last night, yeah, that I was going to recommend her.
1:56:07
Oh, she's like, forget about it. Obviously I thought about my
1:56:10
kids. I mean this, there's American
1:56:13
heroes out there that people don't know about.
1:56:14
And those are the kids, the people that are serving.
1:56:16
You know, I thought about people I know who are fighting now in
1:56:20
Israel, not just in Gaza, but people, you know, people I've
1:56:25
met and went skiing with wounded Israeli guys in France last year
1:56:29
and met some incredible people who there's just so many people
1:56:33
out there. But my my rabbi and I don't know
1:56:35
if you've had a Labovic Chabad guy on, but he's a rock star in
1:56:39
that world. What's his name?
1:56:42
Label Shapiro labels should be amazing.
1:56:44
I mean, I don't know if you've heard about what we're doing
1:56:47
down in Kabut of the Jersey Shore, but it's incredible.
1:56:49
And tell us I call it, I lived in Jerusalem for a year at
1:56:52
Hebrew University and I call Long Branch Jerusalem on the
1:56:55
Jersey Shore. It we have built like when I
1:56:59
take the 15 or 20 minute drive from Fairhaven to Long Branch,
1:57:02
it's better than a flight to Israel to go to Jerusalem for
1:57:04
Shabbat. It's, it's an amazing place and
1:57:06
he's built an incredible community and he's really
1:57:10
brought so many aspects of being Torah observant to a place in
1:57:16
New Jersey where I never thought it, never even thought it
1:57:19
possible. And he's made it so accessible.
1:57:21
And so he and his wife, obviously Connie and, and we
1:57:25
have 3 rabbis now and their wives.
1:57:29
It's an incredible community. But label would be my top choice
1:57:32
too. OK, I appreciate it.
1:57:33
We're going to ask you to, I'm not going to ask you to call him
1:57:35
now because it's Sunday. For those of you that don't
1:57:38
know, we came in on Sunday for this.
1:57:40
We have to, you know, you fly. So you don't know one day to the
1:57:42
next one. You're not.
1:57:43
Here I might have to. Fly right?
1:57:44
And that's why we have to pick today.
1:57:46
So thank you for you, your daughter, your whole family for
1:57:48
allowing this. I know it was a family decision.
1:57:50
So we really appreciate it and we appreciate all our listeners,
1:57:55
our subscribers, our comments, and of course, thank you to the
1:57:58
Prime Source production team. If you're looking for savings in
1:58:01
the healthcare space, contact one of us and we will help you
1:58:05
run your building more efficiently.
1:58:07
That's what we do for a living. Again, I appreciate everyone
1:58:10
being involved. Thank you so much for being
1:58:12
here. And that's a wrap.
1:58:14
That's a wrap you. Wow.
1:58:15
That was awesome.